Penn Jillette who is most notably recognized for his role in Penn and Teller has written an outstanding piece for NPR entitled, "There is no God". In it he articulates his take on God in a very casual manner with a dash of humor. But what I enjoyed most was how close his opinion mirrors my own and probably many of my readers. So please, take a minute and let me know how close this hits home with you. As for my religious readers, I especially would like to hear your take. Can you really argue that Penn is wrong or even misguided?
If you don’t feel like reading it, you’re in luck. NPR has provided us with an audio version read by Penn himself. So no excuses ;)
Related posts:
December 1st, 2005 at 12:36 pm
hmm… good essay, except the part about not being able to prove a negative… and it all depends on definitions. Is there an elephant in Penn’s trunk? answering ‘no’ makes as much of a blind assumption as answering ‘yes’… unless 1. you define elephant in such a way as it could not be in the trunk or 2. you open the trunk and verify that there is no elephant (and thus you prove a negative). In the same way it is completely valid to say that ‘there is no god’ if 1. the definition of god makes it impossible for god to exist or 2 i can view the fullness of the universe and meta/spiritual universe and see/prove god does not exist. Since I cannot perform 2 and see if god really does not exists, then i default to 1, determine what my/your definition of god is and determine if that god could exist. if defined god could exist, then one goes about proving or disproving the actual existance (which is easier than one might think because most people’s definition of god is preposterous). Penn’s flaw is that anyone with a real love of truth outside herself does not start with ‘there is no god’, but rather ‘what is god?’
December 1st, 2005 at 10:21 pm
This gives an interesting point.
I too don’t believe in god and I was discussing it with a friend the other day (he agrees with me btw). He has been through some hard times and said that believing in god is the “cheap” way out becuase when you are in trouble you can just sit back and say “well, whatever, god will sort it all out.”
Being an Australian, we tend to be quite relaxed but when the shit hits the fan, we got off our ass and do something about it.
Having said all this, the REAL christians (not fundaMENTALists) that I have met are genuine people.
Thats my rant for today, now I can do some work…
December 1st, 2005 at 10:34 pm
Awesome, my sentiments exactly!
December 2nd, 2005 at 12:47 am
“So, anyone with a love for truth outside of herself has to start with no belief in God and then look for evidence of God. She needs to search for some objective evidence of a supernatural power.”
Let me begin by saying that I don’t just believe in God, but I actually know that He exists. I also think that the quote of Penn’s above is dead on. Nobody should believe in something like God on blind faith.
I know that God exists because of my own experiences and the experiences of others. This is the same way by which I know that a hot stove will burn me - that is I know it either thru my own experience (having been burnt by a hot stove) or thru someone’s else’s experience related to me (my Mom telling me not to touch a hot stove because it will burn me, because at some point she did just that and is passing on her experience to me).
I know thru my own experiences that there is a God.
Penn implies that if there was a God and He was concerned for us, then there would be no suffering. I don’t believe that. I believe that God allows us to suffer precisely because He loves us. There were two main reasons for which we were sent to Earth. One of those reasons is for us to be tested. God sent us here to see how we will deal with trials, tribulations, sufferings, blessings (for some people being filthy rich is a test), and everything else life throws at us. He has given us our agency and we are free to choose what we will do and how we will react to what happens to us in this life. We aren’t free to choose the consequences for our actions and choices and reactions though.
Blah, blah, blah. I could go on and on but I’m tired of typing.
December 2nd, 2005 at 9:49 am
Hi BobbyG, could you please elaborate on what experiences have lead you to “know that God exists?” I think everyone on here would love to hear it, including myself… so long as it wasn’t voices in your head ;) J/K!
December 2nd, 2005 at 7:15 pm
I’m not always sure how I feel. I tend to reject the “God(s)” defined by modern institutionalized religion, but I think that’s more due to the institutions than the “God” itself.
One of the questions that forces me to keep coming back to the issue is the idea of “quality,” the fact that I recognize some things are better than others. (I think love is better than hate. I think generosity is better than selfishness. I think mercy is better than revenge. And not just in how others treat me, but I want these characteristics to guide my own actions. Why is this so?)
While many people would suggest that the definition of what’s “best” is merely “herd mentality,” I’m not sure that this would fully explain things. If I study the lives of Ghandi, Martin Luther King, or Mother Theresa, I see qualities which stir something deep inside of me, something that causes me to recognize that many of their actions are *good.*
But basically, I just keep wondering *what* defines goodness. Though the idea of what is good varies from person to person, there does seem to be a number of things which are more or less universal. I guess I just feel that there must be *something* beyond just our DNA that defines/contains these things. It’s when I encounter something that I recognize is truly good that I find myself wanting to know something “higher” that defines goodness by its own nature.
December 3rd, 2005 at 1:36 pm
I think that Kaput is touching on the question of morality, or “quality” as applied to personal actions and behaviors. Most human beings do seem to have some inherent sense of “right and wrong” — and I believe this comes from something even more basic than social / societal conditioning. Some believe the source of this basic understanding of goodness and badness must come from some source outside ourselves, a God who teaches us correct behavior.
I sometimes suspect that the source of this sense of rightness and wrongness is empapthy, or the ability to put oneself in the position of another. For example, if you’ve ever had someone steal from you, you remember how upset you were. Even if you haven’t had the experience, you can easily imagine what your reaction might be. And so it doesn’t take a large leap to see that other people would likely feel the same way if you stole from them.
So I would say that it is not neccesary to believe in an outside force that gives us knowledge of right and wrong in order to explain morality. Moral behavior seems to result from empathy. Empathy requires that an individual have the cognitive ability to project himself into the position of another person. It also requires that a person believes that other people have essentially the same value as oneself.
Many instances of atrocity have occured when this last condition is violated. Racist actions seem to require that one believe that the other person is less human than oneself, and therefore does not experience the world in the same way. Some call this process “dehumanization.” If there truly were some ultimate source of value out there that communicates some of its knowledge to us, doesn’t it seem like it would do this in spite of our cognitive ability and our personal beliefs about the worth of different types of people?
December 3rd, 2005 at 2:46 pm
Well said shams42. I couldn’t agree more.
December 4th, 2005 at 2:13 pm
If you are interested, I have written an article in response to Penn’s.
I am a Christian so if you want to read my response, it can be found at the link below.
Read Article
December 5th, 2005 at 12:17 am
Part of what Kaput said is “herd mentality,” ie. genetics. Empathy is product of evolution just as is the “chemistry” we experience with certain romantic interests. Both of these help us survive in groups long enough to reproduce. But when these feelings are rationalized by a human mind, entire philosophical systems are the born. This is the source of altruism.
December 10th, 2005 at 10:48 am
BobbyG:
The biggest problem I have with the idea that “suffering is a test” is that not everyone is tested equally in their lifetime. It’s like a spelling bee where one contestant has to spell the word, “succedaneum” while the next one has to spell “cow”. If you’re going to go with the “testing” route, it’s pretty obvious that “God” plays favorites.
January 28th, 2006 at 1:57 pm
What is this, everyone wants to be Wittgenstein day? Knock it off with the logic, not one of you knows what you’re doing nearly enough to make much of a point.
As to God existing or not, this is an obsession that is best solved by shrugging your shoulders and doing something else. Believe it or not, you ARE alive, and you should probably spend your time on earth worrying about something besides whether or not there is a big magic thing controlling or creating or farting in a big way someplace and whether that farting is truly all powerful.
Here’s an idea: Meaning is a construct of no value, life is dao, and bitching about anything at all just passes time in a way that gets nothing done.
Oh, and this site is pretty childish. If you are going to take this kind of thing seriously enough to make a big site then make sure that 1. you’re intelligent and know what the fuck it is you’re talking about and 2. you’re capable of being funny (you’re not).
Except the jesus thing, that’s a cool show.
March 2nd, 2006 at 6:42 pm
It doesn’t matter if anyone believes there is a God or if there isn’t. If there is He certainly wouldn’t be able to be defined and recognized by any religious dickhead who thought he deserved to know about Him.
Humans make up whatever gods they want to suit their own needs, which is the way it’s been since the beginning. Humans used to carve their gods out of wood, now they carve them out of words–doctrinal statements and theological “truths.”
August 22nd, 2006 at 7:35 pm
This is sad that I see. You know I used to be into a lot of hardcore drugs and shit, and have had a hard life. I didn’t think their was a God. I didn’t think anyone could prove it.
Here is the truth, The Bible talks of everything why God exists. Anyone who has not prayed and sought out God, will never find him. It also says this in the Bible. If you ask him for the truth about which is the right religion, and what is the truth about this world. You will be amazed.
One thing to understand is that all prophocy in the Bible has come true. The fact that the Bible exists is a miracle in itself (a period of 1500 years it was written, it never contradicts itself. The people who wrote it were inspired by God himself). I write this because I used to view the world as you guys did, until I truely found God, and felt very bad about ever talking bad on him. Open your eyes! Anything that goes against the Bible, if you read you will understand, it is your deception. If I dont pray each day to keep on track, I again become like you guys.
All the answers in the universe lies with God, we as people arn’t just some accident. You will learn that doing good is harder than doing bad, this is for a reason. This world is rapidly deterierating, God shows himself to the people who are willing to listen. All you need to do is ask, and listen, pray. You will never regret this decision.
August 22nd, 2006 at 7:42 pm
Last Note:
God created this universe, he is the greatest scientist ever. He has infinite knowledge and wisdom. God loves even thoughs who break his heart and turn away from him. If you never give God a chance, you will never find him. You must seek him. Let me tell you it is people who write things like this that is one of the purest of evil.
No one forces religion on anyone, it is untimately your choice. But each time someone points you in God’s direction, they only say so to HELP you guys. Not to hurt you.
Let me also tell you there are a lot of christians that do not follow the Bible. A true christian wont judge you, for smoking pot, for anything, but only want to help you. That is me and I hope you guys/girls open up your hearts and have humility.
August 22nd, 2006 at 8:20 pm
“No one forces religion on anyone, it is untimately your choice. But each time someone points you in God’s direction, they only say so to HELP you guys. Not to hurt you.”
WRONG, no one in this country can force their views on others because it is illegal. This used to happen all the time in christianity, and is happening in non-democratic nations today.
“One thing to understand is that all prophocy in the Bible has come true. The fact that the Bible exists is a miracle in itself (a period of 1500 years it was written, it never contradicts itself. The people who wrote it were inspired by God himself). I write this because I used to view the world as you guys did, until I truely found God, and felt very bad about ever talking bad on him. Open your eyes! Anything that goes against the Bible, if you read you will understand, it is your deception. If I dont pray each day to keep on track, I again become like you guys.”
How is it a miracle that an old book exists? Books about greek mythology are just as old. As far as your prophecies go, it’s all a matter of creative interpretation. Taken literally, there is a vast amount of things in the bible that are flat out wrong, and don’t get me started on contradictions. (this website details it pretty well: http://www.ministerturnsatheist.org/mydeconversion.html)
“God created this universe, he is the greatest scientist ever. He has infinite knowledge and wisdom. God loves even thoughs who break his heart and turn away from him. If you never give God a chance, you will never find him. You must seek him. Let me tell you it is people who write things like this that is one of the purest of evil.”
You think it’s the purest of evil to think freely; to openly judge some people’s beloved voodoo. The only real evil is organized religion keeping mankind in the dark.
None of what you said is a logical argument. God exists, and he’s super awesome isnt an argument, it’s just more unfounded preachy crap. Looking at religion from a strictly unbiased viewpoint will always lead to the conclusion that it just doesn’t make sense. Learn to think for yourself.
August 23rd, 2006 at 8:48 am
what the fuck he is talking about.
I’M GOD
October 5th, 2006 at 10:19 pm
Comment has been moved here: http://religiousfreaks.com/2006/10/06/lord-spanky-speaketh-the-truthiness/
November 15th, 2007 at 6:04 pm
According to the Torah which the Christian bible was copied from it says in Genesis 1:1 In the Beginning “Elohim” created the heavens and the Earth. It does not say God it says “Elohim”. So therefore there is no God!.
Elohim in hebrew means “The Mighty one/s” and “those that came from the sky” meaning that aliens came to Earth a long time ago and created all life on Earth and us as well, as it is written in the bible ” Let US make man in OUR image, in OUR likeness” - Genesis 1:26 & 27.
Even in Daniel 7:9 it says that the Elohim has hair of white wool. So how can an invisible “God” be a spirit and have hair? .That does not make sense.
Anyways, it was the Elohim aliens that gave us Moses and Jesus, Mohammed, Buddha and the prophet Rael.
Praise be to Yahweh Elohim, for giving us all the prophets, Amen!.
Please See http://www.rael.org to download a book about a man who met a alien ( back in 1973 ) that told him that these aliens known as the Elohim came to Earth along time ago.
Enjoy the book!
Peace be to you!
November 15th, 2007 at 6:11 pm
Gee, thanks, but both books fall in the “fantasy” category.
November 15th, 2007 at 6:16 pm
Irish, can we agree on this “a stone is heavy, and the sand weighty; but a fool’s wrath is heavier than them both”
November 15th, 2007 at 6:56 pm
People sell books about having met an alien? As non-fiction? I think I may have found a new career, duping dumb people sounds profitable.
Also, Micheal, Could you translate that normal english for those less poetic?
November 15th, 2007 at 8:13 pm
LOL alcari. Yeah, I’m metaphorically impaired as will.
November 15th, 2007 at 10:56 pm
LOL Alcari i agree with Sidfaiwu. I think you might have eve as customer, “duping dumb people sounds profitable”.
So Alcari wants to be profitable. I want you, alcari to be profitable. In the truth and the life in Christ Jesus.
i would like to share this story with you,
http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/21818443/
“The video needed no setup, no explanation. A man in Army fatigues enters an elementary school classroom, and from the corner of the frame comes the blur of a small boy rushing at the soldier accompanied by a shriek of sudden joy: “Daaaad!—
This sudden joy by this child, is like the joy with have with our heavenly Father. I tell you this to try explain this spiritual sight we have, once you humble and bow yourself before the cross.
Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.
Are you ready to oppose your “friends” and the world? alcaRI be like this child running to his father and cry with joy, for your heart will be filled light and this blindness you have towards “OUR” God shall be known to you.
your father said, “The fact that the Bible exists is a miracle in itself (a period of 1500 years it was written, it never contradicts itself”.
Alcari, it is written, “The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: but the word of our God shall stand for ever”.
you want to be profitable? be like a child, like this child who runs to his father with tears of joy, hugging and never letting go with this love he has in his heart. Alcari, this world does not understand. Will you accept Him into your heart?
November 16th, 2007 at 6:28 am
Very nice, I ask for a simple explanation of what you mean by
“a stone is heavy, and the sand weighty; but a fool’s wrath is heavier than them bothâ€,
and I get a whole story of how I should come running to god…
November 16th, 2007 at 1:05 pm
It’s a classic three step plan to wealth!
Step 1: Accept Jesus Christ as your Saviour
Step 2: Die
Step 3: Profit!
In my analysis, the risk involved with step 2 and the dubious guarantee of profit makes this plan suspect. Of course, when you read the Fine Print, you find out that step 1 isn’t so simple and will often cost you a lot more than you first thought. The details of the Fine Print depend heavily on the which subsidiary is interpreting the contract.
I’ll give you an example. When I was younger, I entered into just such a contract. I have since revoked my investment made in step 1. Now, according to some subsidiaries, I am guilty of breach of contract and have therefor forfeit my right to the profits. Others claim that my revocation is evidence that I never truly entered into the contract in the first place, while still others say that it is impossible to revoke my investment in step 1. This last group say the contract is binding regardless of any of my other actions and any other contracts I choose to enter into. A very small subsidiary does not consider step 1 optional. According to them, every person has entered into the contract and are entitled to the profits whether the formally acknowledge it or not.
Thus my investment into the contract is as suspect as the profits are. With such ambiguity built into the agreement, I would advise you not to enter into it.
November 17th, 2007 at 10:21 am
sidfaiwu Says:
“I entered into just such a contract”
My Brother, God bless you! thanks for your testimony.
much apprecaited!
Alcari,
“a stone is heavy, and the sand weighty; but a fool’s wrath is heavier than them bothâ€, this should be the new slogan.
For my Brother sidfaiwu has shown this to be true.
November 17th, 2007 at 11:07 am
Apparently, hyrocket is an associate of a subsidiary that claim that once entered into, the contract cannot be broken. This despite the fact that I no longer believe Jesus to be divine and thus incapable of saving anyone from death.
Either that or he pulled a fragment out of my comment to misrepresent what I actually said. That can’t be it. That would be bearing false witness.
November 18th, 2007 at 8:50 pm
Sidfaiwu, why do feel this way towards your Lord & Saviour who has given you LIFE?
You are like a lost sheep and the shepherd is seeking you out.
Come back Sidfaiwu, i want to help you.
November 18th, 2007 at 10:35 pm
hyrocket, you follow this belief system so blindly you can’t imagine the world from anyone else’s perspective. you just keep hammering the moldy old “lord and savior” shit, even though NO ONE is interested. If your looking to convert, look somewhere else.
November 19th, 2007 at 12:11 am
irish, i just watched a news clip about a teenage girl hanging herself, because she believed a lie, on myspace.com.
They said she was fat, they say that they did not like her, etc, etc… ALL LIES!
irish, she is dead because of a lie down the street.
No one wants to listen and now she is deprived of her life.
Christ Jesus is our Lord and Saviour, for he gives you life.
I say, don’t believe your lie, irish.
Down the street is death waiting for you and i want to tell Sid not to follow you, for you only want to bring him death.
Why irish would you want to do this to your friend?
November 19th, 2007 at 12:35 am
Sid, i think hyrocket just called you fat. If thats not what it is then he’s just spouting random words again.
I’m also pretty sure he compared me to death, which, i must say, is pretty fucking awesome.
November 19th, 2007 at 1:28 am
LOL irish, you assume to much… i stand on a truth that loves Sid.
irish said, “you can’t imagine the world from anyone else’s perspective”.
=>i have been & seen your perspective.
November 19th, 2007 at 3:56 am
I get it now, Micheal is merely an elaborate plan to succed the Turing test. Well, I WIN, haha, I’ve figure it out.
Seriously, it responds only to certain terms in your post, replies unintelligeble drivel that means nothing, but is still gramatically correct. It’s so obvious now, Micheal is a chatbot.
November 19th, 2007 at 9:47 am
Wow, alcari, you might be right. Though my money is that Michael is human. The best indicator is that he pulled out the section of text were I talked about having formally been Christian. But it was entirely in business terms. That’s really good if he’s a chatbot.
Risking continuing a conversation with a machine…
hyrocket said,
I have neither a lord nor a savior, capitalized or otherwise. Thus I can feel nothing towards a non existent entity.
He goes on to say,
Insults are quite uncalled for, hyrocket.
Irishthunder said,
Either that or he called me a suicidal teenage girl. Honestly, I think he’s making a rather poor attempt at making an argument for belief.
And I finish with a joke: hyrocket said,
Did you squash it?!?
November 19th, 2007 at 7:25 pm
Sid, Alcari, & Irish here is the clip i mentioned above on post 31.
The link below has the full story. Sid, i have a question were you a christian through the catholic faith? i am just curious. i wish to reply soon to the above post. thanks guys.
“Megan Meier was described as a “bubbly, goofy†girl who loved spending time with her friends, watching movies and fishing with her dad”.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21882976/
November 19th, 2007 at 8:10 pm
what does this have to do with anything? teenagers are cruel, confused, and everything in between. some girl killing herself isn’t big news. By the way, most everyone here converted from christianity, so we’ve heard everything you’ve said MANY times before.
November 20th, 2007 at 9:38 am
Hello hyrocket,
Nope, I practiced a different flavor of Christianity. From outside the religion, you’d find the difference between Catholicism and other denominations to be trivial, even petty. Indeed, to us, Judaism, Christianity, Islam, and Mormonism are all basically the same.
November 20th, 2007 at 5:45 pm
thanks Sid… hey, there has has been new things happening, lately, well not really…
have your heard about a pancake with Jesus and Mary? this person sold it on ebay and made $300. that’s crazy.
my question is, why did this person sale this, as she said “a holy pancake” and made money from it… crazy!
why not eat it and be really holy?! this is just one event in this world.
But there is more good that is happening for my Lord and Saviour Christ Jesus.
No one can squash the truth in Christ Jesus.