The World Net Daily is reporting that an Italian judge has heard arguments today on whether a priest should stand trial for asserting that Jesus existed. At first I found this to be just another amusing story about Atheists causing trouble, but after dwelling on the idea for awhile I found it quite interesting.
If the Christian faith is knowingly founded on lies and decepetion, wouldn’t the Roman Catholic Church in this case be somewhat resposible for this? Look at how much money churches bring in from it’s followers and the tax exempt status that they have enjoyed for many years in the US and many other countries. If Jesus never existed or at least wasn’t the son of God, would that be fraudulent?
Just for a minute, imagine that the foundation of Christianity was proven to be nothing more than a fable. Taking it s step further, what if it were proven that there were coverups along the route to preserve this secret and maintain the church’s influence and power? What would the reprocussions be and how would the faithful react?
Obviously, this won’t happen anytime soon. However, I know many people like myself, believe that Christianity is nothing more than a man-made mechanism to establish power and influence over the masses. There have been many in the past and I’m sure more will come in the future.
No related posts.
heh, want to tally up how many trillions of dollars would have been conned out of people?
“I know many people like myself, believe that Christianity is nothing more than a man-made mechanism to establish power and influence over the masses.”
Totally agree. Fear controls the masses like no other emotion. The fear of an almighty being that will strike you down from above if you dont do what you are told …… ok ok how much money do you need to stop this from happeing to me ;-)
You can’t expect a learned man to be able to answer all question pertainning to his own field.
Then why are you supposed to trust someone with knowing what god wants you to do? (like… priests? ‘God will forgive you of all sins if you recite 3 Hail Maria and put more than 20$ in the pot, thank you, bless you.’)
Don’t confuse the corruption that has existed throughout time in the Catholic church and many denominations with the meaning of truly being Christian. There is nothing in the Bible that about Hail Marys, a Pope, forgiveness related to deeds… it says forgiveness is undeserved and that we can’t do anything to deserve it, but that God gives it freely.
Ok, about the existence of Jesus. Suppose it were false; this would have implications on many religions, not including Christian. There are many religions who at least acknowledge Jesus’ existence… so they would be considered false as well if he never existed. But considering how many direct witnesses he had, I would have to say that he at least existed in some form.
So, assuming Jesus existed, think of it this way: either he was truly the son of God, or he was absolutely a mad-man. There is no in-between. He said that he is the son of God… those religions that say he was only a good prophet are in contradiction, because if he is not the son of God, he is a complete liar and thus not a prophet, and if he is the son of God, he is not “just” a good prophet.
As far as proof of one or the other… he’s already been on trial for 2000 years, I don’t think we’re going to suddenly find any new proof for or against these claims.
Ripping on the Catholics again, eh? Phooey on that. Somebody had to make those dirty pagans see the light of GEE-sus, and if the Catholics had to twist the message a little to make it click, well, that’s just how you’ve got to do business sometimes. Just look at their list of satisfied customers!
Anyway, you’re creating a false dichotomy. Jesus could have been the Son of God, and he could have been a complete liar– but those are not the only two possibilities.
He could have been an interesting, but confused, man. He could have been an egomaniac prophet. He could have been a polka-dotted derigible where when you lick it it tastes like watermelon. There’s plenty of in-between. I’m sure even the best prophets get things wrong sometimes.
Also, this business about his existence being on trial for 2000 years– suuuure. The Catholic church was probably all over that. Hey guys! I’ve got an idea! Let’s take the faith we have dedicated our lives to and put it under scrutiny, using the priciples of empirical investigation to ascertain Jesus’s divinity! Yeah!
I’m sure he got the real scientific treatment.
And this business of Jesus’s nonexistence falsifying other religions– I’m sure modern Islam et al. could bear the doctrinal conflict implied by a discredited Jesus– just for the opprotunity to join in laughing at Christianity and the (corrupt and false after all!) Western World.
I, personally, have no problems with a nonexistent Jesus, even though the Principia Discordia mentions Jesus repeatedly. Hey, I’m just sayin…
That, of course, being a response more to comment #4 than to the original article.
You’ll love it! It’s a way of life!
There is no way to prove or disprove the existence of Jesus at this point. The fact is, we are 2,000 years removed, and there is very little documentation from that era available. Even if we were to find his bones, we wouldn’t be able to tell whose they were!
What little we have are a select few apostolic letters carefully copied by the early Christians. These letters seem pretty authentic, with writing styles that seem plausible, and lots of independent copies. What minor changes that happened are pretty well documented (the addition of the words “in Ephesus” in EPH 1:1 (probably a circular letter), etc.). We also have a very few contemporary written sources, which assist greatly in understanding the bible.
Furthermore, the New Testement has a lot of detail that would be very hard to forge. There are lots of small mistakes which you would expect, but that a late forger would miss. There are also many small things such as the mention of contemporary events in some books (early books don’t mention the AD 70 destruction of the Temple, later ones do). It would seem like an incredible effort to forge this stuff properly. There is also a lot of trivial stuff that seems to match up with archeological findings (Customs that were minor and generally unknown being mentioned in passing, minor named persons showing up with their names on engravings, etc.).
Furthermore, if the early church existed, how would you explain the lack of a historical Jesus? These guys were not getting rich by any stretch of the imagination, so why would they bother making it all up? Also, how would on explain all the calls for early readers of the NT letters to talk to eyewitnesses. They would not be easily forged in at a later date without messing up the flow of the arguments contained in the letters.
There is so much to the New Testament that would have to be carefully forged, that it seems Jesus would have to have at least existed.
I like how you can’t even navigate this site because of the pro-religion google ads. you guys are so awesome
Funny I wasn’t aware this site had ads. I use adblock and it works amazingly.
Give me a break… please read again: “…in the Catholic church and many denominations….” I specifically mentioned Catholics because the post specifically mentions Catholics.
You’re grasping at straws to believe that a prophet could be “confused” on such an incredibly important point. Never did a true prophet claim to *be* God as Jesus did.
The message Jesus brought just makes sense. God wanted companionship, despised mockery, but loved unconditionally, accepting anyone who wants his love. Given those basic facts, everything in the Bible falls into place. It’s all too easy to take things out of context in some of the Old Testament books, so I suggest starting with Romans (Ch. 10 is a good place to start) if you really want to know what this is all about.
Just remember, Paul was in jail when he wrote Romans and possibly other letters. He changed from a person who killed Christians to a person who was tortured and abused for his faith as a Christian. All at one moment because of a life-changing experience. Explain to me, if you feel so deeply that Jesus could not exist, why someone who hated and mocked Christians more than anyone alive today became perhaps the strongest Christian influence the world has ever seen? Why would he change so drastically in just one moment, if it were not real?
The link to the article has been fixed :)
Brandon,
It’s an uphill battle ,but dont get discouraged if your seed falls on hard soil.
I don’t doubt the existence of Jesus for a minute. I do however doubt that he was the son of God. More than likely he was a just someone who dedicated themselves to helping others like Mother Teresa.
Do people honestly believe that God even resembles a human and then impregnated a woman? I just find it fascinating that people do.
Everyone always misses the point. It isn’t whether or not Jesus existed. Its what he did in his life and what God preached through him. The fact that you all cannot understand that prevents you from realizing His message. And he never claimed to “Be” god. The message is told throught the heirarchy of familiar family units that existed of Jesus’ time, which were used to deliver and help the people understand a certain “message”.
The problem with discussions like this is that facts get wrapped up with opinion and hearsay and the whole thing is convoluted.
The message is this: Believe that God shed the blood of His only son in exchange for ALL the sins committed by us so that we can live eternally with Him in a place that is unimaginably better than the world we live in today.
Sounds good to me.
And God does resemble humans. Or rather the opposite. Genesis says we were made in His image. Please educate yourself. You sound very silly.
Bible be damned it is the work of men and therefore NOT perfect
Bible is so convoluted/and has been through countless edits and re writes… (why just recently we were told that is isn’t 666, but 616) SO none of it counts either
Pleasd don’t quote the bible as fact and human history!
—
Humanity is just in general SCARED of everthing and nature itself is the scariest thing ,because we cannot control it. So we make it out to be some supreme being, god or whatever…
people like Brandon scare me with thier “I need something to belive in and some popularist crowd to follow” a BLIND belief.
the human weakness, the crowd mentallity,
The sooner we as a species gets over this whole GOD/RELIGION thing the furthur we can go!
Follow yourself.
I don’t doubt Jesus did exist tho, Just not who xtians think he was
There is not one shred of physical evidence that jesus existed. “Jesus Christ Super Fraud” is more like it. Christianity is dying a slow and painful death. Hopefully it doesn’t take the rest of humanity with it.
What gives us life? The SUN. If the sun died, which will eventually happen, we will die 8 minutes later. This is the true GOD.
Listen, listen- this debate is surely misfounded. Let the squabbling desist and proceed to the worship of the one true God, the Flying Spagetthi Monster. I myself have been touched by his Noodly Appendage, and since then I have been filled with such elation as you couldn’t comprehend.
We have dozens of ancient tomes filled with His works and writings, and infallible proof He exists, as well as explanations for all Natural Phenomena. And don’t even think of trying my faith, for although you may think you have proof that something else exists, Noone can deny what i FEEL in my heart to be true. My own personal experiences tell me of our Lord FSM, and he makes me feel so important I could even travel overseas to preach his Word and die for him, just like the Christians and Muslims and Hindus and all those others.
(sidenote- think how many followers of Islam died – you know, didnt make their fortunes or gain anything from it, they just put their faith in Mohammud and died, sometimes fast, sometimes long and torturous. Does that validate Islam?)
If you do not believe in Jesus simply ask Him, God, if he exists and if he does to please lead you to the truth. If you truly desire this and seek the truth no matter what it is, trust. It will work out for the best. Hey either He is or He is not… He is all things or He is nothing. Why don’t you ask him? Keep asking until you get an answer.
If you are serious about the truth, talk to Mary, the Mother of God. Talk with her as if she were your friend, build a relationship. She WILL NOT let you down, she does not deny anyone, even the most flagrant sinners.
responses to other posts:
We were created in His image and likeness is understood like this. God the Father is pure spirit and so we are created in his likeness and image, because we have a spirit, which is created by God. Because God is Love, we are made to Love God, the trinity( Father, Son, Holy Spirit who was begotten from The Father and the Sons Love)
The sun was created by God and all things are continually given live from God. God is not the sun or the moon or the stars, he created these things and therefore He is Greater than all. The greatest gift is that He is with us waiting for us to turn to Him, can you believe this? The one, true, only creator of all gives us the freedom to choose him or not, because he does not need us to exist,(we need him, especially to be truly happy) but he desires our love. When and if we do decide to turn our faces to God and seek him, His embrace is beyond anything gained from any earthly activity.
Listen, this sounds all great and wonderful, but I used to ask myself when I heard this kind of stuff, why when I ask for something I do not get it. Why can I not see Him, it is hard to believe something I cannot see. It is hard to believe in something I cannot sense. THIS IS THE MOST IMPORTANT FACTOR —FAITH. Endure in faith and all things will become obvious, by his grace.
If we do not have faith to at least seek God, then why should he bother showing himself? The best part is he does show himself all the time. God is merciful and patient, He is waiting for you. Yes you. No matter where you are at, He will meet you where you are and take you for who you are. Then He will give you what is necassary to do His will if we give up our will. Things only get better.
God does not sleep, nor is he even tired.
If you are unsure if you believe in God, Jesus, who is our Alpha and Omega, the Word as in John 1:1. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The Word is Jesus, he is the word who was with God(Father) in the beginning. This means that Jesus, the Son of God, was with his father from the beginning in Heaven before coming through power of the Holy Spirit into the precious and pure womb of the Virgin Mary.
The Hail Mary is in the Bible. The Angel Gabriel declared “And the angel being come in, said unto her: Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.” Then the angel said,”Fear not, Mary, for thou hast found grace with God.” This is where the “Blessed art thou among women”, has come from, she is a greater spcimen of the human woman than all other women. To further support the last statement, John 1:41, “And it came to pass, that when Elizabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the infant leaped in her womb. And Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost: 42 And she cried out with a loud voice, and said: Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb.”
Take is easy… and ask for the truth, it is out there, and who better to receive it from than He who is truth.
Nick
John 8, near the end of the chapter, the religious leaders tried to corner Jesus in his own words. They said, “You are not yet fifty years old, and you have seen Abraham!”
His reply: “I tell you the truth, before Abraham was born, I am!” Most translations translate those last words as “I am” from the Greek “ego eimi”. This was considered blasphemous by the Jewish leaders, because in Exodus 3: “And God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM”; and He said, “Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you,’”. “I am” is the name of God, one that God gave to himself.
And looking at the next verse in John 8, the religious leaders attempted to stone Jesus at those remarks. They would not have tried to kill him had he merely said that he existed in Abraham’s time, or if he said “I was”! No, it was because he claimed to be God.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Y’know, as a Ph.D. Candidate (at a major, secular state university) in New Testament, I’m happy to tell you that those who have actually studied the Bible (as distinct from studying the daVinci Code) are well aware of the various Jesus myth theories, and we get a good belly laugh out of them on a regular basis.
Surely it must raise an eyebrow or two for you militant skeptics to realize that NONE of the people who push these theories have any credentials in the field of New Testament? (The two best known in recent years–no, Virginia, these theories are nothing new–have a BA in classics and some sort of German degree. This is kind of like a cancer cure pushed by somebody with a degree in physical education. Might conceivably be related, but it sures seems funny coming from someone without an M.D. Of course, I’m sure that the conspiracy theories will now trot out their ugly little heads, to which I can only yawn.)
(And, BTW, I noticed a few days ago that this case was predictably dismissed.)
You’re funny. You and your vague, dubious credentials.
Are you trying to tell me the miracles I have seen are not real?
There’s nothing quite like reading the ramblings of half-literate christian sheep to really make one feel superior. Many thanks to you all.
Nick, a special message to you. I think God is making me type this, it’s a miracle!
He says that he wants you to join him in his wonderful kindom as soon as possible. Might I recommend starting the car in the garage and praying to Jesus until you see his sweet face?
Religion is a drug like pot, LSD, heroin, porn or alcohol (etc etc) that makes people enter altered states of reality. In other words, religious people (Christians, Orthadox Jews, Muslims, Hindus, etc.) suffer from a nuerosis that impedes their ability to reason and see or analyze things for what they really are.
Religious people need some kind of extensive psychotherapy to erase the fiction, fables, dogma and pure ideology that has usurped their minds and made them into intellectually stagnant (or plain empty in many cases) followers of the status quo. And that is the best case scenario for these folks (this illness usually leads to bouts with clinical and manic depression if acute).
A world without religion or religious people will or potentially can be a world in which real progress for the human race can be addressed honestly and faithfully.
Let us hope that the scourge of organized religion will perish in our lifetimes! AMEN!
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