Today is February 9, 2006 and you know what that means. It’s time to commemorate the martyrdom of Husayn ibn Ali, the grandson of Muhammad at the Battle of Karbala in the year 61 AH (AD 680). This tradition is better known as Ashura and is very popular amongst Shia Muslims. Many choose to spend the day performing mourning rituals or passion plays re-enacting the martyrdom. While most people march through the streets beating their chest, others emulate the suffering of Husayn by flagellating themselves with chains or cutting their foreheads until blood streams from their bodies.
Related posts:
- Happy Ashura!
- Holy SHi’ITe Kids! Happy Ashura!
- Happy Gai Jatra My Fine Hindu Friends!
- Benny Hinn–Let The Bodies Hit The Floor
- Happy Chrismahanukwanzakah Everyone
February 9th, 2006 at 5:54 am
mentalists
February 9th, 2006 at 10:42 am
Oh, I prefered never to see this. I’m out of here.
February 9th, 2006 at 12:54 pm
Hmm, sorta reminds me of Holiday shopping here in the US. Which for some reason, I think is linked with religion.
February 9th, 2006 at 12:56 pm
Well, just not as much blood here in the States, but still people getting hurt in mass crowds and mobs.
February 9th, 2006 at 2:02 pm
wow, that’s a bit extreme. Though I am supportive of being sad during this time of morning for what happened to Imam Husain was horrible I am not supportive of these types of over the top rituals.
February 9th, 2006 at 5:51 pm
this that parade where they throw tomatoes left over from an overgrown harvest at each other? needs salt
February 10th, 2006 at 3:49 am
horrible! it is totally stupid, this ASHURA day is a special one because it is related to prophet moses ,that is true that at the same day al-hussien died
but anyway it is unacceptable to harm and bleed each others,everyone should respect his body
it is out of islam..it is a tradition in shiaa areas ,but not a worship by the way
February 10th, 2006 at 12:21 pm
say, illini newspaper in chicago ran the cartoons, saw it on tv just now. WGN channel 9 chicago
February 11th, 2006 at 11:05 pm
ı am muslim. but it is out of islam.
February 14th, 2006 at 2:51 am
this is wildnes and masochism. this pictures is not suitable for islam. I hope allah gives to find the right way them.
February 14th, 2006 at 8:23 am
lmao!!! that is #$*&@^@ed up!!
February 16th, 2006 at 10:39 pm
just remember that these are shia “muslims”
February 17th, 2006 at 7:42 am
absolutely idiots
February 17th, 2006 at 3:30 pm
Uh, ppl, those pictures are fake.
February 17th, 2006 at 3:46 pm
How are they fake David? Please share it with the rest of.
gasmonso
February 17th, 2006 at 8:04 pm
its a ceremony which they use artificial blood according to tell the crime which took place in KARBALA.The sunnis killed innocent people hundred years ago near Baghdad.Please search KARBALA.And the suicide bombers are Sunnis not Shias.Dont be so funny first learn about islam traditions.Sunnis killed Shias several times and this is a theater ceremony for those.Sunnis are very strict go and have some information using KARBALA and Shia on the net.
February 17th, 2006 at 9:40 pm
These pictures are not fake. I have also seen this ceremony featured in a documentary but I can’t remember the name of it. They are real cuts.
They were even cutting the heads of childred and babies - babies whos skulls havent even fully formed to yet.
Idiots, complete idiots….
February 17th, 2006 at 9:49 pm
I found the documentary, it’s called “In the name of God - Scenes from the Extreme”
Info at the link below
http://www.cbc.ca/passionateeyesunday/feature_191003.html
February 18th, 2006 at 12:16 am
the whole shiitism has nothing to do with islam http://shiism.blogspot.com/
February 18th, 2006 at 6:54 am
Almost as bizarre as chopping off the end of *someone else’s* foreskin ?
Almost as bizarre as the ritual drinking of blood and eating flesh of your prophet ?
Almost as bizarre as piercing your nipples, risking horrible infections, just for fashion ?
Almost as bizarre as deliberately poisoning yourself, several times a day, by inhaling toxic chemicals from your cigarrette ?
Shop around, there’s plenty of self abuse to choose from. I just listed a few that might be familiar to the western mind.
Leave these people alone, don’t pretend self righteousness to judge them.
Do they personally inflict this on you ?
February 20th, 2006 at 2:13 am
I am all for self abuse - everybody should be free to do whatever they want to their own bodies.
What I don’t agree with is this idiocy being inflicted on innocent children.
I don’t give my children cigarettes, their forskins are all intact and they have no piercings at all.
February 27th, 2006 at 1:39 pm
Shia’s are not Muslim, and this has nothing to do with Islam. Prophet Muhammad never did this, neither did any of his companions.
Every innovation is misguidance, and those who are misguided will end up in the fire.
May Allah save us from misguidance, Ameen!
February 27th, 2006 at 3:22 pm
Abdul Aziz,
are U kidding - Shias are as Muslim as you are - the victim of the most horendous, hypocritical, so called religion. You and people like you are a typical example what can religion do to the human beings - making them blind, fanatical, intolerant and soaked with hate.
Wake up and be a normal human being. We all are one family on this planet…we do not god or prophet or anyone like that to enjoy life and share it with other living creatures!
February 28th, 2006 at 7:43 am
I am not muslim, but I have observed that shiite muslims are particularly bizarre. They include alot of weird pagan practices into their religion, which is quite different from the sunni muslims. Shiites are real big on demonic rituals, and big on praying to “saints” or whatever they call them. If you want an incite on shiites I recommend the documentary “Mystic Iran”.
March 1st, 2006 at 6:49 pm
We have to nuke them NOW before it’s too late.
March 2nd, 2006 at 4:48 pm
I am a muslim, just let me confirm, this is really STUPID! There’s no celebration for the death of anyone in islam.
This day is related to prophet Moses when he crossed the sea. And muslims should’nt feel happy nor sad for that.
March 2nd, 2006 at 4:51 pm
True shiist are mostly ennemies of islam.
March 20th, 2006 at 8:08 pm
Um, sorry to burst your bubble, but yes, Shias are muslims. I think some of you need to remember Husayn’s sacrifice of his livelyhood, his own life, that of his own children (young and old), and the honor of his sister bibi Zainab for the sake of islam, or else YoU all would be practicing a morbid and perverted Yazidi version of Islam, which would not be islam at all.
Every human has a right to express his grief. The shias have been victims of hostility for over a thousand years, but the revolution lives on with ‘ Ya Hussain’.
There are no ‘pagan’ rituals practiced on Ashura by Shias, the grief expressed is nowhere near that of Prophet Muhammad’s grief when told of his grandsons violent sacrifice.
The wahabis are afraid. Thats all this is about.
March 21st, 2006 at 9:19 am
Shias are muslims even though they differ in many practices from the Sunnis.
I don’t want to discuss the differences in detail on this site but accusations by some Sunnis that the Shia are disbelievers or vice versa (as I see in above comments) are wrong and as far as Islam is concerned not to be done casually.
April 25th, 2006 at 4:00 pm
I was just reading the comments, and was quite surprised to read what some people have been posting.
I would like to clarify some thigns.
First of all, off of the bat, I am shiite.
-No, we do not do demonic rituals or any of that crap.
-The only book that we adhere to is the Koran
-The Prophet is Muhammed
Regarding the self flagullation, it is practiced by many other faiths, including Christianity, just do a google search and see for yourself.
I remember going to the Ashura commemerations when I was younger, and saw people doing that to themselves. No one forced them to do it, it was all their personal choices, though I don’t agree with them cutting infants.
There is a small trend growing to donate blood instead of beating oneself, which I’m happy to see.
August 25th, 2006 at 3:41 am
Ashura is a time where Shia Muslims mourn over the martyrdom of their Imam Hussein (as). While the majority of them attend lectures and seminars and engage in crying, others take it to the extreme and believe that they should go through what he went through in order to fully appreciate him and what he did. I’ve never actually seen this happen with my real eyes but when I do see them on the net I am totally horrified. It’s true that it is forbidden in Islam to harm ones self so I have no idea why they would do it but each individual interprets things differently.
August 25th, 2006 at 3:55 am
And by the way, whoever Luke is, and wherever you got that site from, and whoever reads it, should know that everything on there is absolute BULLSH*T! Not one of those articles are true. Some sad case who dislikes shia’s made all that up to make them look bad and sadly, many people who are ignorant of the truth believe it.
I’m just shocked at how low people can get.
Shias and Sunnis are both Muslims, there are differences but that doesn’t mean that they are two different religions, they believe in basically the same things, and they practice the same things too. You can’t blame the whole Shia community for this, like I said earlier, some take it to the extreme and some don’t, just like in every other religion. There’s good and bad everywhere and it really annoys me when people blame other peoples wrong actions on the religion. Islam does NOT tell muslims to kill non-believers or anything like that. I urge people who have doubts about what Islam is really about, to do some research from RELIABLE sources.
Otherwise, leave Islam alone, I never see people criticising what Christians, Jews, Hindus, Buddhists do, or any other religion for that matter. Why is it that Islam is ALWAYS targeted?!
Everyone should just accept the beliefs of others around them and should just focus on that person’s personality. A religion is supposed to be between an individual and their God.
And that’s all. So please be respectful towards others, and this goes for everyone.
August 25th, 2006 at 10:17 am
for hanan .
salam
every day ashora day must be the day of donating blood in the sheaa community,you know just simple calculation,there is a milions of liters which can be used in order to save people,many people in the world and escpicially in the thierd world die from illneses concerning blood shortage while more than 400 milion people injure them self to initiate their beleifs.
October 25th, 2006 at 5:00 pm
May Allah forgive me for what I have to say.
A few years ago I converted (from nothing) to Islam. I had read the Quran before and was happy with the words of God/Allah. When I went into the world to live islam I felt uncormfortable to be a muslim and grew more and more ashamed to be one. I felt the spirit of the Quran or anything like that cannot be found anywhere among muslims. Instead of hope, faith or love I find quarrel about rules; self-assumed righteousness about which hadith/traditions are valid and which are false and hatred between sects. Many brothers and sisters chant the Quran without knowing the meaning of the words in their own language, just like parrots sing their song. And they know, they all know, but no one feels and no one changes his way of life. No one, no one I met, lives Quranic.
It is this refusal to think for one selves, this reluctance to change and resistance to knowledge and foremost lack of respect to Allah which makes me cry and wonder if my only option is to renounce islam.
You ask, Why is it that Islam is ALWAYS targeted? Well, maybe it is just because of that. The refusal to consider even the posibility that the cause of hatred towards islam is the behaviour of muslims themselves.
Because abberations like 9/11 or these Shia self-mutilations (fake or not!) are done away with on ground that thay are done by despicable fanatics, strayed sects. You can hear that in words like: these are not (real) muslims. You can hear that in words like: You can’t blame the whole Shia (/muslim) community for this.
If my son steals some fruit, I will have to act. And so have muslims. The muslim community has the obligation to act if one (or many) of their brothers goes astray. You want to fight about who is the right? You dont have to fight about who is right and who is wrong. If I dont correct my son I am to blame and I dont earn any respect. If I act but cant get my son to understand I fail as a father; but in that case at least I showed responsibility and so will be accepted by the world.
When I saw the pictures above I felt ashamed again to be a muslim. I feel horrified. Horrified not by the people who perform these rituals, but horrifed by their muslim brothers who actually allow them to continue doing so.
I have not met a brother yet.
My last refuge is go out and travelling. When I meet you, will you be able to show me Islam?
November 2nd, 2006 at 7:48 am
plzz….wait
every one has seen this pics must know that
shiist>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
not muslims
not muslims
not muslims
not muslims
not muslims
November 7th, 2006 at 3:26 pm
all shia and sunnis are brothers and sisters so dont try seperate us u jews and u americans. we belive in the same god and same holy book.
November 7th, 2006 at 3:33 pm
yeah muslim, its always the jews and americans who are the problem…
November 7th, 2006 at 6:10 pm
@muslim
haha… and it was soooo hard to separate you. we had to work really hard to get sunnis and shiites to kill each other. but worry not, my dear muslim, in the end you’re all the same and will be dealt with in the same way.
January 18th, 2007 at 5:28 am
To Boris,
Yes, I will agree with you that ever since the beginning of Islam there has been major conflict between the Shia’s and Sunni’s but what many people worldwide do not realise is that at the end of the day, they are both still Muslim, believing in the same God, the same Prophets, the same Holy Book, the same basic principals and so on. And in regard to your comment about ‘being dealt with in the same way’, I would like to let you know that Muslims and Islam will prevail over all religions and will withstand time right up until the End. So whatever your thinking, get it out of your head. Because it is YOU who will be living in hell FOREVER… you got that? FOREVER! Why? You may ask, because of your beliefs that do no good for you and because of the way you critise others when you don’t even have the slightest idea that it is YOUR religion that is corrupt. But… that’s your problem not ours.
January 18th, 2007 at 1:09 pm
“I would like to let you know that Muslims and Islam will prevail over all religions and will withstand time right up until the End.”
Actually hanan, i would like to tell you that mighty Thor will return and seek vengence on those who turned from him. Sounds crazy doesnt it? well theres really no difference between allah and thor in our eyes. If you read anything on this website youd notice the majority of the people here are atheist, so theres no possible way our religion is corrupt, because we dont have one.
January 18th, 2007 at 4:58 pm
irish…
How dare you even compare Thor and Allah! Allah is only alluded to and guessed at in his holy works. The Eddas clearly define the actions of our master Thor and his deeds such as fishing Jormungander the Midgard serpent from the oceans!
May his hammer swing mightily and crack the skulls of his foes on Ragnarok!
January 18th, 2007 at 6:06 pm
Oh, please! Thor is a wanker. The Celestial Teapot wrothfully rains caffeinated fluid upon his pathetic skull daily.
Let him search the heavens and swing his hammer wildly as he might, but I know that he shall NEVER lay a blow on the Celestial Teapot.
And Allah? The dude didn’t even show up. What a Loser!
January 19th, 2007 at 12:23 am
All hail to Celestial teapot, we who float on a crumpet in the eternal teacup bow down in face of your might.
As it is written in the dangly piece “Must be let to soak for four minutes.” That is the word of the Teapot and it is true.
Death to those who only soak for three minutes or less!!!
January 19th, 2007 at 2:25 am
no worshippers of thor have ever bothered me on a weekend. or have they ever tried to pass legislation that would influence my daily life. or have they ever attacked my country. in my book:
thor > any abrahamic boogie man
January 19th, 2007 at 11:15 am
Hmmmmm… Celestial Tea… Let me soak in it for few minutes.
P.S. Everyone is welcome to join.
January 28th, 2007 at 9:39 am
ummmm this has nothing to do with ashura these freaks are beating themselves to death and in our religion it doesnt say to do that so whatever they re doin they need helpppp big time . that poor baby he’s mom is a freak of natureeee. anyways ashura is not celbrated like that so whatever these people are doinnn its a sin
January 28th, 2007 at 9:57 am
one more thing i went over the comments that were posted seriously some people need to get a life because shii’s are muslims and whether you like it or not they are. And your denial will not really change what was written down in the quraan and hadith like thousands and thousands of years ago. and i do respect everyones religion because if you look in all those 4 holy books all jews,christians,and muslims believe in the same thing. And yeah by the way pleaseee dont sit there and start threatning or fighting with your keyboord because its just winning the olympics in the end you’re still retarted so not really looking for fights with no one on here. And i do say that these people are shii’s and yeah im from teh same group and religion but this is wronnnnggggggggggg no one should ever do this to themselves and chirldren especially infants. so please guyz understand that not all shiis believe in this and our religion doesnt say to do this what so ever extremist just give us a bad name.
January 28th, 2007 at 10:40 am
Oh my god… I’m gonna be sick. Couldn’t you have let me live in blissful ignorance of this thread?
@Lilly
I wonder… are there ANY moslems at all who are doing what islam asks them to do? IIRC every single bad thing about islam is said to be from extremists/maniacs, how many groups like these are there?!
On the front page there are 4 topics about people who understood islam in a wrong way and did some crazy thing… Makes me think, perhaps islam is just too vaguely defined for any practical purposes…
January 28th, 2007 at 11:18 am
lilly said:
so please guyz understand that not all shiis believe in this and our religion doesnt say to do this what so ever extremist just give us a bad name.
I understand that you believe that this is not the way of true Islam, but the people who are doing it believe it is. This site is basically a news and editorial site about religious extremists — people who take their beliefs too far. You aren’t going to see headlines like “Moderate Muslim is a successful parent” or “Guy who goes to Catholic Mass only on Christmas and Easter works at Walmart” because this site is about extremists.
What I would love to hear from you is your support for the claims that these guys are wrong. Maybe some verses from your holy books that would support your stance, historical evidence that this ritual was not practiced by early Muslims, or logical retort to their interpretation of Ashura. We only have one really vocal Muslim regular poster, a chap named Mohamed, and we’d love to have a female perspective.
January 30th, 2007 at 7:04 am
O God ! Help me to say the truth .
Dear !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I am a shia !! why you say about me what you dont know??!!! Do you know me better than me?!( befor being shia, my relegion is “love”.)
Do you beleive in God? Do u beleive all heaven relegions?
I say all heaven relegions have the same message ! all relegions say us : try to get everlife( never die) befor u die ! How it is possible? it is possible only when u get out of your “self” ,( just like a growing seed , the first step of growth(love) is to get out of the shell( self) ).
Do u do,say, see, ear waht satisfy your creator. do u say about Ashura the truth? Do you say what God say about Ashura? do you obey your “self” or your loved( your God) ?
I love all of you. Hossein “had been killed” ! Hossein hate to kill ! hossein like to be burned just like a candle to enlight my and your way to truth. he did what god had ordered ! just like jesus(pbuh). He is actual message of divin books. (just like jesus).
Have you ever seen a christan who hang her neck a cross?! this is the same as emotions of shia and some sunni in Ashura( and some ppl of other religions) . a christian wish ! i wish i were with jesus; so a shia wish! i wish i were with hossein !!
all there sermonies are a symbol only ! when we beat our chest we say :Oh god ! let this stony heart to have frehs water and make me alive.
I say all ppl are brother and sister ! I say “first u then me”.
Hossein teached us the lesson of freedom ! as Gandi ( the Guider of India ppl)said this.
wana know Hossein ? read the poets of Rumi, wana know hossein? try to everclean your heart,to ear the voice of your conscience( your God).
Hossein is the martyr of divin love( as god say in all heaven boodks: “ones who come to God by their money, capitals family and soul” !! )
Hossein say : if u havent a religion, try to be a gentleman and free !!
I say myself: try not to be an insect on the sweetness of this world, try to be a highfly eagle !and see nice harmonies and nice landscapes of truth, see unity, as Zeinab( sister of hossein) said: I didnt see in Ashura but beauties !!
A day befor Ashura, hosseins nefew asked him : o ancle ! am i dead tomorrow? hossein asked, dear! what u define death? the young boy said: for me it is better than golden ring hanged on the chest of a young beauty girl, sweetest than honey !
at the evening of Ashura,the little girl of hossein, whene she was given water , never drinked (after 2-3 days)
, when she saw her father cutten hed,she died at the same moment !!
This is the Exam(test) of Love !! are you a lover? can u do what jesus did? what abraham did with his boy !!
They are a pattern for us !! they say us: try to love eachother for God , not for “self” ! as i do , this is Love !!!!!
sonni is my brother . you are my brother.
Here i cant say more in a little page !!!
The end word: Life is very short, you will ear the Tru( truth) voice soon!! try not to be shamed befor lose opportunity(life, time and chance)!!
Dont say about me ,if u dont know me !!
Your way for you, and mine is for me.
January 30th, 2007 at 9:20 am
I already think my grandpa hears the TruVoice!
http://www.magnatone.com/truvoice.html
Seriously, Daniel, we weren’t talking about you. We were talking about the people in the pictures and article who are obviously doing the things we were talking about.
Do you cut yourself on Ashura?
Do you cut your children on Ashura?
January 30th, 2007 at 10:23 am
Oh my god… I’m sorry but i could only read half of daniel’s post before giving up due to his language.
an interesting point:
Hossein “had been killed†! Hossein hate to kill ! hossein like to be burned just like a candle to enlight my and your way to truth. he did what god had ordered ! just like jesus(pbuh). He is actual message of divin books.
In islam the guy who brought the holy book is Mohammed, and lilly said Shia and Sunni are both the same religion… Shouldn’t a religion be at least agreeing on who the messenger is?
Oh, and not to forget: Not all religions speak of an afterlife.
January 30th, 2007 at 11:25 am
wow, how did this thread get resurected? maybe a bump to the frontpage gasmonso?
I think it’s very funny how both sides say “We are brothers, we both believe this” to which the other side says “We are brother, we both believe that”
February 15th, 2007 at 11:44 am
i totally support this. its their religeous thing. infact they do it to themselves not anybody else
February 15th, 2007 at 11:46 am
Really fatir, judgeing by the picture I would have to disagree. Those little babies didn’t have much of a say in the matter… now did they?
I’m all for people doing whatever they want to themselves. But leave the kids alone. That’s just stupid.
gasmonso
February 15th, 2007 at 3:59 pm
indeed, every religion first commandment should be “Thou must keepeth thy religion to thyself and shallt not bothereth others with it”
February 16th, 2007 at 2:43 am
@hanan
god knows, i am not friendly to religion. out of all religions, i find islam to be the worst in every regard. the only reason i dislike the current war in iraq is because american soldiers are dying there. instead, we could have used this very sectarian conflict to do our job for us. islam is opposed to my way of life, and its followers are not shy about not letting me forget that fact.
an example: the reason iran is not using slingshots is because russia (and others) like money. the reason iran has money is oil. oil is _very_ limited. once it runs out, we’ll f-ing talk, and you won’t like it.
February 16th, 2007 at 9:54 am
Uh, boris? Have you heard of the Iran Contra Affair? The US has supplied weapons to Iran as well. Oh, and we supplied Iraq with almost all of its military equipment that they used on us in both gulf wars as well.
March 14th, 2007 at 5:01 pm
God,
Shias and sunnis DO agree on who the messenger is. They disagree on who was his rightful successor.
March 15th, 2007 at 5:44 pm
whats wrong with EVERYBODY
they r not hurting n e 1 but them selves and 4 the kids they r not doing it hard they r just touching the soft skin
we all believe in god
so let the shia do what they want and don’t blame the Jews the Americans the sunnies and shia we r all people of god
so there is no reason to criticize other religions
this type of stuff that u right can ruin some1s life
and i m a half sunnie and half shia imagine my lfe
March 15th, 2007 at 6:27 pm
786
i m also cant we get along meaning i wrote number 60
i m 13 years old and just to say hanan is right
upeople r ruining my life and showing me how crual u all r
and not going to say n e names but who ever says something bad about allah should be care full cuz allah is god allah is mighty allah has power and everything that happens to u is from allah so u better b respectful and not call allah a loser and just b nice please
and i know most kids will grow up to do this
once again i m a half shia and sunnie living in new york as a 13 year old
thanks to all u supporters
March 15th, 2007 at 6:49 pm
ameer, if you don’t like whats being said then don’t read it. It is our right to say what we want and you cannot simply tell us to shut up. we do not have to show respect to allah if WE DON’T BELIEVE in him. Just to make sure your aware, most of the people on this site are atheist, which means we don’t believe in any god.
March 15th, 2007 at 8:08 pm
i never said to shut up and i never said u have to show respect i said u should
just calm down u bully
March 15th, 2007 at 8:10 pm
u just killed a little of me inside i hope ur happy
March 15th, 2007 at 9:31 pm
“so u better b respectful and not call allah a loser”
*ahem*
“upeople r ruining my life and showing me how crual u all r”
In what way are we ruining your life? Id really like to know so we stop hurting your feelings.
March 17th, 2007 at 12:26 pm
oops ur right i might have said that and ur right i m sorry
u r ruining my life by being mean to each other
but if u don’t want to stop u don’t have to
and happy Saint Patrick’s Day to every 1
April 16th, 2007 at 8:23 am
ISLAM IS NOT A RELIGION. WHICH RELIGION DEMANDS ITS FOLLOWERS TO BEAT THEMSELVES, LEAST OF ALL BABIES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! YOU PEOPLE ARE BEING LED THE WRONG WAY TO LIFE.HOW CAN YOU BEAT AND CHASTISE YOUR BODY????????????????????? YOUR BODY IS A TEMPLE,YOU MUST TREAT IT LIKE ONE
April 17th, 2007 at 3:59 am
Why do all of you servants of God fight amongst each other.
each and every existing religion on earth has at least one thing in common, LOVE ALL AND SERVE ALL.As those who do not see God in all do not see God at all.I am a firm and mighty believer in Sikhism, and my faith will never diminish as my religion teaches me to respect all religions as my own.and as far as God goes,HE IS ONLY ONE>ONLY ONE. we call him by thousands of names like WAHEGURU,ALLAH,RAM etc, but he is only one.we, the whole human race are HIS creation and we are all brothers and sisters.if you cant accept that,i only say that you are being led the wrong way to life
WAHEGURU JI KA KHALSA WAHEGURU JI KI FATEH
April 19th, 2007 at 7:43 pm
hi every one
I just want to tell u that these people are
shiaa and muslims are sunni the are not muslim
muslims dont call any one for help except allah(my god in
English) while shiaa said ALI or Hussain They may come from Iran
MUSLIMS DONT DO THAT
The are lke animals?? what is the benefit of doing that??
They ARE JUST DOING WHAT THEIR IMAM SAID (LIKE KHOMAINY)
If u want to say anything or ask about Islam and shia plz email me on Kholoud25@hotmail.com
April 20th, 2007 at 8:29 am
@Muslim girl:
Yeah sure… those are not true moslems. We heard it a million times over. Get a better excuse.
April 21st, 2007 at 10:56 am
@Agony :–
!!!!a better excuse!!!
Do u ask yourelf why Islam is the fastest growing religeon in US
maybe u are not from this world (;
Do u know why there is always fighting in Iraq
or maybe because u dont know the real Islam I heard that
in UK they teach them Islam in a bad way (violent and torreism)
which is realy not…..
(Sorry for my bad English)
April 21st, 2007 at 11:46 am
???????
April 22nd, 2007 at 7:00 am
@Muslim Girl
let’s see.. why they are the fastest growing?
1. having XXL families when most people have less than 4 children?(or was that Europe?)
2. guys like our friend Mohammed here quitting their life in Islamic countries to join the free folks?
3. people who leave islam are to be killed.
That sums it up for me.
UK? What are you talking about? I am a former moslem living in an islamic village in israel. So excuse me, but Islam is as “peaceful” as the old testament is.
Anyway, those people are proof that that “good people will do good things, bad people will do bad things, but to make good people do bad things you need religion”
May 12th, 2007 at 7:26 pm
I am a Shia muslim, and here is the true Fatwa on this issue by Khamenei:
Q1449: In commemorating the martyrdom of Imam Husayn (a.s.) on the tenth of Muharram, some people hit themselves with a machete, or walk bare-footed on fire. Such actions defame Shi‘ism and put it in a bad light, if not undermine it. They cause bodily and spiritual harms on these doing it as well. What is your opinion in this matter?
A: Any practice that causes bodily harm, or leads to defaming the faith, is haram. Accordingly, the believers have to steer clear of it. There is no doubt that many of these practices besmirch the image of Ahlul Bayt’s (a.s.) School of Thought which is the worst damage and loss.
Q1450: Is hitting oneself with swords halal if it is done in secret? Or is your fatwa in this regard universal?
A: In addition to the fact that it is not held in the common view as manifestations of mourning and grief and it has no precedent at the lifetime of the Imams (a.s.) and even after that and we have not received any tradition quoted from the Infallibles (a.s.) about any support for this act, be it privately or publicly, this practice would, at the present time, give others a bad image of our school of thought. Therefore, there is no way that it can be considered permissible.
by Ayatallah Khamenei
http://www.leader.ir
May 19th, 2007 at 7:46 am
lol, poor stupid and ignorant people..
but at all, this is a fucking cool horror to see
May 19th, 2007 at 8:25 pm
Hmm - not a sight you would see on an average European city street. Am I the only person here who thinks that these blokes are wankers? WHY are they doing this? Have they some personality problems, or they just headcases? Not a religious concern, I think, just prats. Perhaps some couch time with their Shrinks, as I think they are called acros the Pond. There are some idiots in the world, aren’t there?
June 2nd, 2007 at 5:48 am
i m a totaly moderated shia. and all of u above said almost in deffer to above pic. but what u think u just make a cut to ur finger then u will see that u will feel pain for almost a week. then how it is possible that a person cutted himself and also other day he or goes on work too……… my friend it is possibel…. i also experienced it for only its realty to look what could happen. and i experienced that when i cutted myself saying YA HUSSAIN believe me i never felf even a piece of pain. and other day i also marched to my office with no pain at all…. even i stiched on my back….so its not fake my friends its real…. i as a SHIA wants u too…. not say it fake…. u do ur own and let us on ur own…. do practical ….. just cut a but ur finger ,,,u will see finger will pain even a month,,,, but i experience that i cant feel pain even the next day….. so think that What POWER lift all pain…. and how deep cuts could fill in days… JUST THINK with cool mind…………… SHIAS ARE NOT FAKE
June 3rd, 2007 at 2:02 pm
“IN THE NAME OF ALLAH THE MOST MERCIFUL AND COMPASIONATE”
Salam alaykom dear brothers and sisters,
a few things must be made clear here… first of all do not make a judgement (such as shias are not muslims) unless you have researched it and have got sufficient evidence to support it. i am only a kid but i know this.
shias and sunnis are muslims and are united in believing in allah (swt), belief in muhammed ( saw) and the holy qu’ran as their holy book.
June 3rd, 2007 at 2:19 pm
“IN THE NAME OF ALLAH THE MOST MERCIFUL AND COMPASIONATEâ€
oh people do you know who the shias are? shias are muslims who accept ali (as) as first caliph. the holy prophet made clear before his death that ali is his sucsessor. ” man kuntu mawlah fa aliyun mawlah” (who’s ever’s master i was, then ali is now their master). ever since the prophets departure, the shias have been opressed.
” verily allah wishes to drive away all evils from you o ahlul bayt (prophets house hold ali, fatima, hassan , hussayn(AS), and cleanse you thoroughly.” (surat al-ahzab, 33:33)
this verse proves that the ahlul bayt were great people. how dare someone abuse them? how can they say this to those who are loved by the prophet and allah (swt)? you accuse the shia of being bad people when all they are doing is following the prophet’s commands?
“oh you who believe, obey allah and obey the messenger, and those of you in authority (ulul amr)” (surat al-nisa 4:59)
“so submit patiently to thy lord’s command, and obey not of them any guilty one or disbeliever.” (al-dahr 76:24)
the same word for obey has been used in both verses therefore the ulul amr must not be a sinner or a disbeliever- he must be ma’sum. now from verse 33 of surat al ahzab, we know that the only person after the holy prophet (saw) who fitted the description of being infailable and deserving of being ‘ulul amr’ was imam ali (as).
if hussayn (as) had not made that sacrafice muslims would not be following the islam of the holy prophet (sas), but would be wrongly following yazid’s version. oh people the shia are the lovers of the prophet and his houshold. how can aby one hate muslims who follow the prophet?
research it and underastand the true tragedy of karbala and who the shia really are.
June 3rd, 2007 at 2:26 pm
i’m not saying i agree with the shias doing this to themselves, but there is a certain extent of acceptable commeration. most of the time they just beat their chests which is up to them. it is their way of commeerating a tragedy. yet they suffer abuse from people who do not understand islam. who is anybody to say what a true muslim is? is a muslim not someone who believs in allah and his messenger? someone who enocurages good and prohibits evil. it says in the holy qu’ran:
“surely the most honourable of you with allah, is the one among you most careful of his duties (strongest piety)”
instead of argueing, muslims should unite as a ‘ummah’ and put their differences aside.
allah (swt) is the all powrefull, the almighty and the all knowing
he is the best of judges and he knows who the pous people ar (mu’mins).
may allah bless you all
June 4th, 2007 at 9:19 am
allah is all knowingh. who is to say that shias are not better than us?
June 4th, 2007 at 9:20 am
ali should have been the caliph first.
June 5th, 2007 at 12:23 am
Man, ask god to frogive you. I like Ali as any other Caliph, but it doesn’t mean that he has to be the first, so many stories that our prophet put them in that order, and what is that all about, if he was first or last, does it make him less, sure enough not, and if you would ask him, he would tell you that he doesn’t even care, these true Muslims didn’t seek this life, they sought what is bette that this life, and you still talking who should be first.
They are all in heaven, do you think being Caliph is better than being in heaven, and do you thing if he should be first, would god allow that to make last.
You are fetna and distraction for Islam, I hope god forigves you.
June 5th, 2007 at 12:25 am
Look at the pictures above, is it from Islam, that’s bull shit, God never said to hurt your self, you are freaking morons.
I’ve seen these pictures on tv, and I was so surprized how stupid these people.
Are you kidding me?
June 5th, 2007 at 7:55 am
Yeah, Mohamed, they remind me of the idiot Christians who literally crucify themselves every Easter.
June 5th, 2007 at 9:55 am
what is ur problem ppl, we r not arguin ova ho shuld be first, were saying this is how the sunni-shia split formed. we r muslims and u are nobody to say we r not, allah is alknowing and he judges whos a gd muslim or not. i know what they r doin is rong, but dont label all shias like that. they are rememberin a trajedy, and u owe imam hussain for his sacrifice, coz if he didnt do what he did u wuld be a slave to yazid…
June 5th, 2007 at 12:57 pm
how dare anyone say that the shias are not muslims! and ofcorse it makes a difference if ali ibna abi talib (as) was the first caliph or not. if he was first he wuld chose his succesor. remeba that thruout his whole life ali was a mu’min. unlike the other caliphs (who i also respect), who were a unbelievers at some point in their lives. ali (as) was the first convert to islam. when every1 mocked the holy prophet (saw), ali defended him. we all agree that whatever the prophet commands is an order of allah (swt). for example even in the holy qu’ran allah (swt) says ‘qul’ (say) to the holy prophet. the holy prophet chose ali to be his successor because he knew only he had the qualities to do so. after the prophet’s death it was vital that there would be a caliph who wuld be able to continue the prophets message. we know muhammed (pbuh) was the last messenger of allah, but after he died the calipha was stolen from ali. look at all the abuse shias suffer. do you even know what happened at karbala? do you not thank allah that you were born a muslim? if hussayn had not doen that you would be not following islam! you compare yazid with hussayn? yazid’s grandfather was ubu sufyan, an enemy of the holy prophet (saw). while on the other hand hussayn’s grandfather was tegh messenger of allah muhammed (saw). yazid was so evil he wuld kill and drink alcohol. yet you put him ahead of hussayn? this yazid had hussayn’s head cut of. he wanted revenge from the holy prophet because of the deaths of his family.
the holy prophet (pbuh) said: hussayno mini wa ana minal hussayn’ (hussayn is of me and i am of hussayn)
many stories highlight the prophet’s love for hussayn.
even in iraq now, the shia are being terrorized and are having their heads cut of by terrorists. you call that islam? you call that justice? you compain when some shias hurt themselves but its fine for terrorists to terrorise them?
may allah forgive us all
June 5th, 2007 at 1:40 pm
thats only some shias. others donate blood which is much better. hussayn didnt say to do this. its ppl doing it out of their own will. us muslms shuld concerntrate about unting ourselves. not abusing each other. just because SOME shias do this you think all do? u think just becasue they do that they r not muslims? what about prayer don’t they pray? or fast? or do good deeds? only allah is the all knowing. first of all correct ur mistakes then tell others. you can’t say ur perfect and that ur a gr8 person who is defintly gonna enter heaven. thats for allah to decide. read books, research different veiwpoints. don’t just rely on what ur parents tell u or what ppl of ur faith say. imagine u were born into a different faith. wuld u still say that it was correct? thinl.. allah has given us brains to use..
June 5th, 2007 at 8:23 pm
Hold on little but, I didn’t say you are not a Muslims. Who ever said the shehada is a Mulim, and I’m not judging anybody.
Do you think Ali was bothered for not being the caliph, did you think he care, do you think he was looking forward to it. Don’t you believe in destiny? Do you think what happen out of God control?
That were my questions, you said it’s not fair, Did Ali( karam Allah Wajhah) need you to defend him. He is better than me and you, and if he was that mad, I think he would show it.
I said before I’m against killing against who ever, it doesn’t even have to be a Muslim, I don’t like or support killing.
I don’t compare amybody to anybody, only God know who is better than who, so you are the one who judging people, answer my questions and you will see I’m right.
June 6th, 2007 at 3:32 pm
man do you know what a huge difference it wuld have been if ali was the caliph first! he deserves it and ofcourse he cared, the islamic ummah had to be controlled and taught the prophets version of islam, not YAZIDS!
June 6th, 2007 at 9:34 pm
The version of Islam would make you hit yourself and got your body with blood, Islam has no version, you want to make a versions of it, fear god.
You didn’t answer my questions yet, do you think God didn’t destine that Abu Baker to be The first and Ali to be the fourth.
I don’t what you argue about, is it that what you care about if Ali first or last.
What version os Islam you talk about, your version, and if you think that was a differnet version of Islam was applied in the other Calip’s era, do you think Ali would stay silent, don’t do any thing about it. Ali was ready to fight whoever for Islam, do you think he would see wrong things happen and he would let it go. You should know Ali better.
I like Ali may be even more than you, but I know how Ali was, and how simple he is, he wouldn’t care about being Caliph.
The other question I would like some shit to answer, Abu Baker was reach before Islma, how much money did he has when he died? the same about Omar and Othman and Ali. Being caliph was a prevliage, it was a huge responsibility in front of God.
June 7th, 2007 at 1:52 pm
“IN THE NAME OF ALLAH, THE MOST MERCIFUL AND COMPASIONATE”
Salam alaykom dear brothers and sisters,
to answer brother muhammed’s questions….
“verily your gaurdian (wali) is Allah and his messenger (muhammed) and those who believe and establish the prayer, and give charity (alms) while they are (in ruku) bowing down.” (surat al-maisah, 5:55)
to begin with, hussayn (as) martydom was vital and we all know that, sunni or shia. when hussayn (as) made the sacrafice, he did it to show us aYazid’s ersion of islam was corrupt and is not the true islam that the prophet put into practice. He did NOT ask anyone to beat themselves. the trajedy is one that must always be remembered. on Ashura of Muharram, it is a day were the Holy prophet (saw) was slaghted unmercifuly by the hypocrites by the order or Yazid (may allah’s cursings be upon him). yet some people have the courage to call Yazid a mawli and accept him as a mu’min!
YOU ARE TELLUNG ME IT DOESN’T MATTER WHO WAS THE CALIPH FIRST? ofcourse it does…
The holy prophet made it clear at Ghadeer Khum, that Ali was to succeed after him by the orders of Allah (swt).
“man kuntu mawlah fa aliyun mawlah…” (who’s ever’s master i was then ali is his/her master…)
this is evidence that we not only obtain from the shia books but also from the sunni book of Bukhari! (just incase someone would like to call it a lie.)
at ghadeer khum when the annoncement was made, the following verse was sent down:
“o messenger! deliver what has been revealed to you from your lord; and if you do not do it, then you have not delivered his message, and Allah will protect you from the people ; surely Allah will not guide the unbelieveing people” (surat al-maidah, 5:67). it is vital that ali (as) was to be the caliph because only he had the sufficient qualities to do so and contol the islamic ummah like the prophet. he was a believer all his life, the first male to accept islam, more loyal to the holy prophet than any other…
brother muhammed, you say that ali didn’t care? after the prophet (pbuh)’s death, while ali (as) was arranging the funeral a group of people were planning to steal the calipha and go against the holy prophet (pbuh)’s word. it is obvious who these people were…
these people stole the calipha from ali (as) by force. threatning him and his family. just to remind you his family being the family of the messenger of allah (muhammed). as a result of this force, fatima (as) the holy prophet’s beloved daughter was killed.
ali (as) was a just man and deserved the calipha more than them. the other caliphs put their relatives and freinds in power across the islamic empire. they acted unjustly with the treasury given unfair amounts.
when ali (as) finally became the caliph, his justice was shown as he acted fairly and controlled the ummah in the fair and justical way the holy prophet (as) had. he was so justical that some of his own followers (the khawarij)turned against him because he was not treating them as the previous caliphs were.
you talk about destiny? allah (swt) has not pre planned our destiny, other wise our life would be useless because we would have no choice to do good or bad. therefore, freewill exists and we have the option to control our actions. allah (swt) is the allknowing and knows our future, but has given us freewill to decide. otherwise on the day of judgement we could just tell our lord allah (swt) that we had no choice but to do bad. therefore allah (swt) knew that the calipha would be stolen from ali (as) and even the holy prophet and ali (as) knew. however, this is part of life, to see who would stick by the holy prophet (saw’s word and who would go against it.
allah (swt) meant this to happen as part of life. if everything was perfect, there would be no need for life because we would all be true muslims who never sin and there would be no test.
you say you like ali more than me? i am no one to say you don’t, but why don’t you accept him as the rightfull calif even with the holy prophet (saw)’s command?
understand the similarities between shias and sunnis…
we are closer to each other thatn anyone may think. we are united in tawheed, accepting muhammed as the final messenger of allah (swt, and the holy quran as being our holy book. the above images represent SOME shias. they do it to commerate hussayns sacrifice. what they are doing is not killing them, they are doing what they can handle. instead they could be donating that blood. but its up to them, just like its up to you to make choices in life such as following islam as a religion.
if you understood the love the holy prophet (saw) had for hussayn, and how hussayn had been salghtered then mabye you would understand how opressed us
muslims are as a ummah.
abu bakr, umar and uthman did not deserve to be caliphs nor were they chosen by the holy prophet (saw), they elected themselves and went against the holy prophet’s command, that is the point i am making. ali (as) should have had control so that he may select his successor. however, the ummayids were formed and were against ali (as) and his followers (shias). they made it obligitory (wajib) to curse ali (as) in the athaan!!!!!!!
can you believe these people? not only do they steal the calipha, but they curse the shais , who were just following allah (swt)’s commands?
lets compare my dear freind….
the grandfather of Yazid was ubu sufyan who was an enemy of the holy prophet (as)…
the grandfather of hussayn (as) was the holy prophet (saww) himself…
the people would complain and say how this man muawiya would lead the salah while he was drunk! these ummayids were no muslims! they drank alcohol gambled killed and did all sorts of sins, yet still they are put ahead of the hlulbayt (as) (prophet’s houshold). did i not mention ayat al-tathir in my previous entry ( 33:33), these people were clean of sins… if they were in power they would be justical… however whenever they tried they would be tortured or killed by the ummayids (and later the abbasids as well).
my dear brother, i hope this answers your questions… inshala you will understand why us shias remember the tragedy of hussayn (as) and why we commerate his martydom… most shias only beat themselves to an acceptable level, only some do this blood thing and i for one am against it. but don’t think all shia are like this…
may allah bless you all…
June 7th, 2007 at 11:33 pm
I appreciate taking the time answring my questions.
You mentioned that why don’t I accept that Ali was the rightful Caliph, I accept that Ali was a caliph and he one of the best and close friend for our prophet.
The argument that our prophet recommend it that Ali is the succesor is fault, our prophet wouldn’ do such a thing, he wants Muslims to decide their own fate.
The other thing if Ali knew that what our prophet dicided that Ali should be the Caliph, do you think the threatning would work with Ali, Ali was the most brave man Islam know, and I can tell you stories about his courage, and if you really know Ali, Ali would do anything to get our prophet order done, and you know that better than me.
You are talking about Ali like he is helpless, Ali was a true believer, he wouldn’t hestiate a second to sacrify his life for Muhammed’s order.
We feel bad for Hussein like we feel bad for Omar and Othman, we don’t make differnce between any of the sahaba, should we blame our self for Omar death or Othman or Ali or Huessin, it’s god will for them to die this way, why are you blaming yourself, that sanity.
I’m sorry that i’m little bit harsh, but the way you talk about Ali, it shows that you know little about him.
There is no way that they cursed Ali in Atahn, that’s bull-shit, and why Sunni like Ali now, what the differnece, why the Sunni now shows Ali as a the Islam hero? Tell what the differnce?
June 13th, 2007 at 10:48 am
To be frank these are not fake i have witnessed these “tradition” many times as a muslim from shiate sect.
but to also these are condisered by the majority of shi’ate schollars as an unacceptable and self suffering acts.
these acts are not rituals but traditions of the common people “anyone in the society” expressing there grieve for the Heroic death of Hussein grandson of the profet Muhammad
Shi’ate Schollars prohibeted them because its obvious that the are harming the image of islam world wide and special the shiate sect. THEY ARE TRADITIONS NOT RELATED TO ISLAM IN ANYWAY. so now we cant consider that the KKK clan’s rituals or any sect group’s riyual in the west is a act of christianity.
Please try to see these pix from the right perspective before making any judgemnt on any one.
Please p[lease please,, try to know more about Hussien and his revolution for the cause of human rights that after 1000 year the westren world is advocating for , while we already has embraced this concept 1000 year ago
June 14th, 2007 at 5:46 am
every one has seen this pics must know that
shiist>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
not muslims
not muslims
not muslims
not muslims
not muslims
yes u r right
June 15th, 2007 at 3:47 am
I wonder what happens if we get the shiist here… my take would be “sunnies >>>> not muslims” but who am i to decide who gets the right to call himself a moslem?
I’ll just laugh my ass off when Zeus throws you both into hell at the end
June 15th, 2007 at 12:40 pm
“IN THE NAME OF ALLAH, THE MOST BENIFEFICENT”
Salam alaykom dera brothers and sisters,
before i start i would like to make it clear to ‘another muslem’ (no 95 of this pg) that us shias are muslims and that he or she is nobody to tell us we are not. who ever accepts allah as the only God, the most powerful who has no father or son, accepts muhammed as his prophet and his last messenger, the holy qu’ran as their holy book (hence says the shahadah) IS A MUSLIM!
also i would like to apologise for this late reply brother muhammed, i was busy with exams.
the event of GHADIR KHUM is a fact. you can not deny what not only is written in our hadith books (shia) but also the sunni hadith books. the event is accepted by both schools of thought. however, the differnec is that sunnis say that the holy prophet called ali as the caliph of his houshold and not the moslem ummah, which makes no sense seeing how the prophet said ‘ man kuntu mawlah fa aliyun mawlah’ (whos evers master i was then ALI IS HIS MASTER)
the second point, you say that ali would have used force? ali is a person who defends islam. if he used force that would only cause conflict. ali, unlike the other ‘caliphs’, was a man of patience and strenth both mentally and physically. they were not kufar for his to do that. never once did ali (as) raise a sword first aginst an enemy.
i am not talking about ali as helpless, neither am i trying to convert you into a shia muslim, my only aim is to tell you what happened. allah (swt) has given you a brain to make judgements. the event took place, tell me why you do not accept it? is the word of umar, ubu bakr and uthman stronger than the word of muhammed (saw)?
as you know muhammed’s (saw) actions are governed by allah (swt) order. even in the holy qu’ran allah orders the prophet by saying ‘qul’ (say).
muhammed made it clear that ali was to succeed, how could a man like muhammed (saw) leave the islamic ummah unguided?
the other caliphs do not have the qualities or the ability to control the ummah the way the prophet did. at one point in their lives they were kufar. after converting to islam, it does not mean that they were perfect.
muhammed chose ali by the order of god, and the order of god is not wrong.
for your info, yazid hated ali (as). he wanted revenge . what kind of person would put yazid ahead of hussyn. hussain representing justice and the true islam of the holy prophet, while this guy yazid, was a muslim by name but not by nature. yazid hated ali and his shia. you tell me yazi should HAVE BEEN the successor rather than hassan (as) alis son??
may allah bless you all….
June 15th, 2007 at 6:31 pm
@muslim boy,
“how could a man like muhammed (saw) leave the islamic ummah unguided?”
Just beautiful… I have been asking myself this question myself for sometime… guess the shieities have the solution… at least it’s more logical.
One question though: is it true that you believe that the angel gabriel gave the quran to mohammed by mistake when it was intended to be for ali?(this story is common by the sunnies over here, was never able to verify it)
June 15th, 2007 at 10:42 pm
Our meant to leave it this way, to show people that you can’t inherit authiority.
He wanted to leave this issues for people judgment.
Say who should be the Caliph, it’s waste of time to debate.
Our prophet promised the Omar and Abu Baker and Ottman with heaven, so how they are that bad like Shitt saying.
Ali will never use force, but he is not afraid to express it and try to show the Muslims the right way, and based on some Shitt said, that he threaten his family. That doesn’t make sense as I said before, Ali was the bravest Muslim ever exist, he wouldn’t scared about his family when it comes to God will.
June 16th, 2007 at 11:08 am
“IN THE NAME OF ALLAH, THE MOST MERCIFUL AND COMPASIONATE”
Salam alaykom dear brothers and sisters,
to answer ur question ‘agony’…
no, us shias do not believe in what you say, THAT IS WRONG.
we believe the quran was sent down to MUHAMMED intentionally just like our sunni brothers. however, we believ that ali (as) was the rightful caliph as only he had the sufficient qualities to do so.
is’nt it ironic how ali (as) was a pious person all his life and was the first to embrace islam and defend the holy prophet? while if you contrast that to the other so called ‘caliphs’, the were kufars at one point in their lives and later converted to islam.
brother muhammed…
at the moment you seem to be missing the point and avoiding my questions…
do you not accept that ali (AS) was chosen (not recommended), by the holy prophet (saw) at ghadir khum? this is a FACT! even you sunnis accept it, it is in your books as well as ours. it is a hadith.
the holy prophet was on his farewell pilgrimige when he stopped thousands of the muslim followers in the scorching heat of the sun. he raised ali’s (as) hand and made it clear. how much times do i need to repeat my self : ‘MAN KUNTU MAWLAH, FA ALIYUN MAWLAH” (whos ever’s master I was then ALI is now also to him/her a master!!!!!!!!!)
and for your information, fatima (as), the holy prophet’s daughter , was martyred. and don’t try and twist the truth! the people who elected themselves and chose to go against muhammeds will, went up to her house in order to force ali (as) to give up the caliphat. the killed her by crushing her behind the door and killed her unborn baby (muhsin).
these people were meant to be good muslims? you put them befre ali (as)? for god’s sake, as soon as the prophet (saw)died, they went aginst him, stole the clipha, killed fatima???? and on top of that they were not just!
they put their family members in high positions across the islamic empire. as a result mu’awia broke the peace treaty between him and hassan (as), for that reason, hussayn (as) was slaughtered and martyred on the 10th of muharam.
and what a surprise, that SOME OF the sunni decide to fast on that day, i’ll tell you why because to celebrate yazids victory!!!!
answer this question : was yazid a good man?
yet some ppl put him ahead of the ahlulbayt (as).
the ahlul bayt (prophets houshold: muhammed, ali, fatima, hassan, hussayn, and all the imams), are free of sin. they are mentioned in the quran of being pure (refer to my previous entry)…..
may allah bless u…
June 16th, 2007 at 11:17 am
without authority, society goes corrupt,
you need a strong pious person to continue the prophets teachings. is it fair of allah (swt), to give the people of the prophet (saw)’s time a guider but leave the people after his death unguided?
who has the correct qualities to interpret the quran and explain to the ummah islam like the prophet.
not ubu bakr, not uthman nor umar. these people were not good people to be so greedy and want the calipa. ali was more than just a companion or son in law for muhammed (saw), he was a brother and a puious person. he had patience, somthing that the other ‘califs’, didnt because they refused the prophets order and wanted the calipha for themselves!
what kind of person would kill fatima (as), just because she refused to let them enter her home!
this is the rasool’s daughter. the prophet has said ‘fatima is the mother of her father’.
yet these people not only confiscate the garden that the prophet gave to her, but stole the calipha from ali (as).
it is not logical to love mu’awia and hussayn. it is obvious one was the good guy and the other the bad.
June 16th, 2007 at 5:01 pm
Omar got killed and Ottman got killed, nobody of Sunnis crying their death, it’s God will and he has wisdom in doing it that way.
What you are saying is the following, that God wasn’t able to make Ali caliph, because that was god and Muhammed’s will, but god couldn’t get his will, that’s exactly what you are saying.
You know it’s written in the sky who will be the next caliph, so what you say here that god couldn’t get his will.
I’m no judge to say who is good and who is bad, only God know what was going on at this time.
June 17th, 2007 at 12:09 am
@Mohammed,
“You know it’s written in the sky who will be the next caliph, so what you say here that god couldn’t get his will.”
So the names of your currently currupt kings of arabian countries were also written in the sky? I’m sorry to say that but if THAT’S true then god must be a real asshole.
@muslim boy,
Thanks for your explanation. Guess the sunnies aren’t really true of heart when talking about other groups either.
No, I don’t think it should matter when a person embraced islam, it would depend on the qualities of that person(this does not mean ali didn’t have the qualities. I don’t know enough to judge that)
So if both Sunnies and Shieeie’s believe in pretty much the same thing, why are they separate groups? I mean who cares what SHOULD have been? it’s over, done. What matters is what we do now.
@123,
Dunno about Omar, but from what I know AbuBaker didn’t really want to be a Caliph…
@no one in particular
This is turning into a Sunni VS Shia debate
June 17th, 2007 at 5:54 am
‘ man kuntu mawlah fa aliyun mawlah’ (whos evers master i was then ALI IS HIS MASTER)
June 17th, 2007 at 6:15 am
“IN THE NAME OF ALLAH THE MOST MERCIFUL AND COMPASIONATE”
Salam alaykom to u all,
Brother muhammed, i refuse to carry on with you avoiding my questions like this. i am trying my best to answer yours, yet you just avoid mine and create more questions.
allah is all powerful and could have done anything. i not once hav said allah could have NOT made ali caliph like you are suggesting i am, NO NO NO. that is wrong. allah is aware of everything,
muhammed elected ali by the order of allah. this election was made public and the evidence to support this is in your hadith books as well as in ours, so do not call it a lie!!!
ali was more just than the other so called claiphs, i hate to say this but in a way the others were traitors as they went against the prophets word.
you are trying to twist what i am saying. you are making statements and are falsely suggesting i made the comment.
“What you are saying is the following, that God wasn’t able to make Ali caliph, because that was god and Muhammed’s will, but god couldn’t get his will, that’s exactly what you are saying.”
WHEN DID I SAY THAT!
i am highlighting the fact that ali and his shias were and always have been opressed. at what point did omar, ubu bakr and uthman have the RIGHT to elect themselves.
why did they go aginst the holy prophets will? the point is thata allah and muhammed chose ali, and even you acknowledge the event of ghadir took place, but are refusing to accept it as the truth.
rather than fearing allah, the hypocrites feared muhammed. they were on his side when he was present, but the moment he passed away, these people betrayed him and turned against him. you have no evidence to say muhammed (saww) chose the others. they were traitors and you know that.
people say ‘why do you care its only the past…’
i’ll tell you why we care, because this is a man who was opressed because he was a true believer who was entitled to the calipha. his calipha would have controlled the ummah like the prophet. the verses i have mentioned highlight ali (as) qualities. he was a mu’min all his life not like the others.
allah says to follo wpeople with the description he mentioned after the prophet. and only ali matches those descriptions. ali was free of sins (ayat al tathir 33:33)
“verily your gaurdian (wali) is Allah and his messenger (muhammed) and those who believe and establish the prayer, and give charity (alms) while they are (in ruku) bowing down.†(surat al-maisah, 5:55)
the above verse is a description of ali (as) personality. just to remind you it was ali who gave his charity while he was in ruku (another story also accepted by ahlul sunnah incase you wish to call it a lie)
answer my questions i have posed….
stop skipping them because you know they make apoint….
may allah bless u…
June 17th, 2007 at 6:16 am
Did the Prophet Appoint a Successor?
O Messenger, Proclaim what has been sent down to you from your Lord; and if you don’t do it, you have not delivered His Message (at all); and Allah will protect you from the people (Qur’an: Chapter 5, Verse 67)
Us Shia believe that the proclamation mentioned by the Qur’anic verse was fulfilled by the Prophet (s) when he appointed Imam ‘Ali bin Abi Talib (a) as his successor on the day of Ghadir Khumm.
Do the Sunni scholars consider this event authentic?
The number of Sunni authorities who narrate this event, both in detail and insummary, is mind boggling! This historic event was narrated by 110 Companions of the Prophet (s), 84 Successors from the following generation
and then by many hundreds of scholars of the Islamic world, from the first to the fourteenth century AH (seventh to twentieth century CE).
A very small selection of these sources is given below. Many of these scholars not only quote the Prophet’s declaration but also call it authentic:
􀂉 al-Hakim al-Naysaburi, alMustadrak
`ala al-Sahihayn (Beirut), volume 3, pp. 109-
110, p. 133, p. 148, p. 533. He expressly states that the tradition is sahih in accordance with the criteria of al-Bukhari and Muslim; al-Dhahabi has confirmed
his judgment.
􀂉 al-Tirmidhi, Sunan (Cairo), vol. 5, p. 633
􀂉 Ibn Majah, Sunan, (Cairo, 1952), vol. 1, p. 45
If there still remains doubt about the historic importance of this statement and the efforts of some people to cover it up, let this be the final word, this is What happened on the day of Ghadir Khumm.
Ghadir Khumm is a location some miles from Makkah on the road to Madinah. When the Prophet (s) was passing by this place on 18 Dhu’l Hijja (10 March 632) on his return from the Farewell Pilgrimage, the verse “O Messenger, Proclaim what has been sent down…” was revealed. He therefore stopped to make an announcement to the pilgrims who accompanied him from Makkah and who were to disperse from that junction to their respective destinations. By the orders of the Prophet (s) a special pulpit made of branches of trees was erected for him. After the noon prayer the Prophet (s) sat on the pulpit and made his last public address to the largest gathering before his death three months later.
The highlight of his sermon was when, taking Imam ‘Ali (a) by the hand, the Prophet (s) asked his followers whether he was superior in authority (awla) to
the believers themselves. The crowd cried out in one voice: “It is so, O Apostle
of Allah”.
He then declared: “He of whom I am the master (mawla), of him ‘Ali is also the master (mawla). O God, be the friend of him who is his friend, and be the enemy of him who is his enemy.”
Immediately after the Prophet (s) finished his speech, the following verse of the Qur’an was revealed:
Today I have perfected your religion and completed my favor upon you, and I
was satisfied that Islam be your religion. (Qur’an 5:3)
After his speech, the Prophet (s) asked everybody to give the oath of allegiance to ‘Ali (a) and congratulate him. Among those who did so was ‘Umar bin al- Khattab, who said: “Well done Ibn Abi Talib! Today you became the master of all believing men and women.”
An Arab, having heard of the event of Ghadir Khumm, came up to the Prophet (s) and said: “You commanded us to testify that there is no deity but Allah and that you are the Messenger of Allah. We obeyed you. You ordered us to perform the prayers five times a day and we obeyed. You ordered us to observe fasts during the month of Ramadhan and we obeyed. Then you commanded us to offer pilgrimage to Makkah and we obeyed. But you are not satisfied with all this and you raised your cousin by your hand and imposed him upon us as our master by saying ‘Ali is the mawla of whom I am mawla.’ Is this imposition from Allah or from you?” The Prophet (s) said : “By Allah
June 17th, 2007 at 6:17 am
To find out detailed information on the event of Ghadir Khumm, visit:
http://al-islam.org/ghadir/
June 17th, 2007 at 6:17 am
finishing the last scentence:
The Prophet (s) said : “By Allah who is
the only deity! This is from Allah, the Mighty and the Glorious.”
June 17th, 2007 at 6:19 am
brother ‘agony,
u r soo right…
why are the shias and the sunnis different groups? we should unite as an ummah.
however , you must understand that what happened in the past make sa huge difference to the present. even in modern society, the shias are tarfgets for abuse, for instnce in iraq the shias are having their heads cut off because of their beliefs by the anti-shias .
this is wrong, some wish to cover what really happened because they refuse to accept that what they are following is invalid.
thanks for ur time anyway..
June 17th, 2007 at 8:03 am
@muslim boy,
Too bad there are no shias in Israel(none i know about anyway), sounds like it’ll be fun to learn how small differences in(IMHO) secondary matters can create such a huge conflict between two groups, even after 1000+ years.
I am sure what happened back then _did_ make a huge difference to the present, but I don’t see how fighting over it will make anything better(except if you’re a historian)
Make sure to drop by if you ever come to israel(or perhaps jordan), don’t worry, we don’t bite.
June 17th, 2007 at 11:22 am
“IN THE NAME OF ALLAH, THE MOST MERCIFUL AND COMPASIONATE”
Salam alaykom,
@agony
as hard as anybody may try, in life their will always be extremists in most religions, and in some cases even religious branches (ie. sunni or shia). most people do not want conflict, yet others do.
for example, if you look back into history, this man yazid was so selfish and unmerciful that the ordered the shias to be beaten or ikilled. hussayn (as), was a great man.
however, i don’t understand how some ppl can put yazid ahead of him, or in some cases even say yazid was better than him. this is what i mean, in life you have ppl who do not like being open minded, they refuse to listen or to understand other points of veiws. they believe what they believe is right and anything else deserves to go to hell. this is wrong, even in the holy qu’ran it says there is no obligation in religion.
if you look back to the past until today, shias are being opressed and its obvious. just the other day someone called me a terrorist and said i was avery bad person who is not a muslim. when i asked him why he said that because his parents teach him to hate the shias. just for your information this person is a ahmadi muslim.
for that reason ppl must understand each other’s beliefs and not critisize them. conflict should be avoided, but justice will never be served in this life.
thats why we need a hereafter (afterlife), so that god can be the judge.
“is allah not the best of judges?” (95:8)
its nice of you to invite me to israel, but i doubt i’ll ever go there…
June 17th, 2007 at 11:42 am
“thats why we need a hereafter (afterlife), so that god can be the judge.”
Replace “need” with “would like to have” and I’ll agree with you. but to say it plainly: I think that’s just wishful thinking on your side… I mean how can you be sure there is a god, an afterlife and whatever else your religion teaches?
Oh and i have no idea what an Ahmadi is(probably a branch of islam, but if so i don’t know anything about it), so I’ll be very grateful if you’d explain.
June 17th, 2007 at 12:23 pm
“IN THE NAME OF ALLAH, THE MOST MERCIFUL AND COMPASIONATE”
BROTHER ‘AGONY’….
- the perfevt harmony of CREATION around us points to the existance of a creator. can such a beutiful, original and complex creations, from single-celled amoeba to the complex brain of man, have evolved by chance?
- evidence in instinct, as hard as it may be to believe their can never be a 100% athiest. this is because belief in god is a natural instinct. everything in life is based on morality , some may argue the only good thing religion brought was morality.
if their was no morality in life then there would be no such thing as good or bad or right or wrong. anyone who has morality has fear in something, because your morals are based on arule set by somthing. in this case its god, because if it wasn’t the whole idea of morality would have no point and we would all be going around committing crimes have no sense of respect and life would have no meaning.
-evidence in logic, everything has a trigger, therefore everything takes place due to a cause- therefore there is cause and effect. bertrand Russell once said that he would believe in God, if only he understood who had caused God to come into existance. although the discussion about this is a bit complicated, we can simplify it slightly. we believe that the existance of an ‘Ultimate acuse’ is necessery, otherwise if we imagine a being created God we must ponder over who created that being?
we can see that this arguement is endless. however, what we cannot deny is the effect of taht ultimate cause, which is the abundant glory of creation we see around us. it therefore follows that teher has to be a cause that has not been an effect of anything else and that ultimate cause is god. therefore an uncaused cause is vital other wise the idea of us just happening to be created without intention or purpose contradicts its self. once anyone accepts that god exists, we have to endeavor to understand the nature of his existance.
it si irrational to believe we are all an accident that happened to be created by cahnce. even that chance would need a trigger. theer must have been a starting point because otherwise it would not exist. even if a reason was found questions would be raised about what created that.
it is not right to think we are all accidents an dthat life is purposeless. even my previous statement make s a point, if someone commits an offence and is not punished, then how is that jsutical? therefopre an afterlife would ensure that that person does not get away with it and is punished according to their crime. if justice would not be served, we should all be playing ‘everyman for himself’, because their would be no rules to abide by and no morality to base our actions on.
i’m sorry if i cannot offer more, i am limited just like most people. however, i really appreciate the fact that you are openminded and willing to listen, a quality many others do not have. it is our duty to explore life and to understand each other, otherwise there would be no truth.
hope that helps…
June 17th, 2007 at 12:28 pm
p.s you were right ahmadi is another branch of islam that developed recently their beliefs differ more thanthe sunnis and shias.
(i am guessing you are an athiest, correct me if i’m wrong, i respect you and have nothing aginst you everyone has the right to believ what the want. there is an interesting debate thatw as held quite a while ago between two theists (a muslim and a christian: hassanain rajabali and michael corey) against two athiests (dan barker and richard carrier). its quite long though but is very interesting, if you want you can watch the video at
http://www.shiasource.com/community/community_events/1/
June 17th, 2007 at 5:29 pm
Muslim Boy, I don’t know even who the heck is Yazid is, I know Hussyn, and I never heard about Yazid.
June 18th, 2007 at 5:38 am
@Mohammed,
I always supposed he meant Yazid Ben Moa’awia, the 6th caliph if I remember correctly.
@Muslim Boy,
Will try to read your link ASAP(why does everybody like to provide me links to read? anybody willing to sell me a second brain? I might need one)
1. Evolution, we got a nice article about it. perhaps you should check it(and no, chance doesn’t cut it)
2. What? Who exactly wrote that? It sounds like someone saying “all gays are just gay because they couldn’t get along with women. They DO like women, but they have trouble getting them”(a typical straight-anti-gay speech) Well, I am 100% atheist, and I dare you to provide some sort of evidence that I(or anybody else on this forum) am lying.
3. There was an article about the evolution of morals on this site some time ago too.
4. So god is the ultimate cause? funny, why not say something else was that ultimate cause if you need one? you got the big bang, quantum physics, string theory, alternate universes… just chose one, they are all as rational as God(to me at least) if not more so.
I still think the afterlife is wishful thinking for those who couldn’t get their justice while they lived. There is nothing to say that the universe(life+afterlife) is fair. there is nothing to even indicate an afterlife(except for “god”’s holy books)
June 18th, 2007 at 7:30 am
“IN THE NAME OF ALLAH, THE MOST MERCIFUL AND COMPASIONATE”
Dear brothers and sisters,
@ mohamed…
you don’t know who yazid was? ‘agony’ is right. yazid is the son of mu’awia, who many of the ahlul sunnah put ahead of hussayn. there is no doubt that yazid was an evil man. therefore do not make statements and judgements about the images above if you don’t even know the true story behind the tragedy of karbala. research it for god’s sake. and when you research, don’t just research the sunni point of veiw, because 9/10 of the time, the veiw will be biased and will elevate yazid’s true identity. yazid wanted the shia dead-STRAIT.
it was because of him that hussayn had to make the sacrifice he did. hussayn made the sacrifice in order to preserve the true islam that muhammed (saww) taught. yazid however was against this. he was an unjust man who would drink, gamble, kill innocent people and on top of that suggested his ruling was the true islam.
if you do not know what an evil man yazid was then how an earth do you claim to understand hussayn (as)’s sacrifice?
hussayn gave his head rather than give alliance to an unjust man.
people ask why us shias mourn over our beloved hussaym. you would understand why if you knew the tragedy. the torture and oppression us shais have had to go through. why? because we want to follow the true islam, the islam set by muhammed, and who better to continue to teach it you tell me : yazid or huusay.
once again the calipha stolen by the ummayids from the ahlulbayt. learn my dearfreind, about what really happened, this tragedy which lead to the martydom of hussayn cannot be explained breifly.
this person hussayn, who the prophet would hug and kiss and praise is slaughtered by yazid’s army to gain revenge from the holy prophet who had killed their forefathers because they were kufar.
just imagine, hussayn and this camp (women, children), had their water supply cut and were dieing of thirst. hussayn with his brave men (an army of 72) faced and army of hundreds if not thousands. the men had their heads cut off and place d on spears while these ummayids thought they had won a great victory. hussayn lost the battle but won the war. his aim was to show us the true islam was not yazid’s version. and hussayn succeded, today in our millions us shias if not most of the islamic ummah, remember the tragedy that hussain faced in order to preserve the true islam.
June 18th, 2007 at 8:10 pm
Religion is stupid
June 18th, 2007 at 10:12 pm
You can apply the same story about Ottman too, my point here, I know Hussyen is a good man, and he is better than me and you and Yazid, I just don’t know why is the mourning, he died for a reason, and he served this reason, and he is in heaven in shaa Allah.
In Egypt we have a huge( and might be the most famous) by the Hussien name, we don’t have one with the Yazid name. Why do you think that, becuase we appreciate El Hussien and we know how honroble man he is.
Omar and Ottman were killed, and Ottman almost died the same way like Hussien, they seige him and at the end they killed him, even Ali was trying to defend him, just if you think Ali was mad because he is not the caliph, and Ali was ready to fight who killed Ottman, and Ottman refused fighting, so the Muslims don’t fight against each other.
But the difference here that we don’t keep crying about it, it was God destiny, and it happend for a reason, or don’t you believe in God destiny?
June 19th, 2007 at 10:21 am
Wait, Muslim boy, are you saying there is a god because of causality, even though said god breaks those very same laws? Doesn’t that sound a bit odd?
Also, Morality can exist just fine without religion, just look at animals, who seem to be getting along just fine without going to church. I’m as atheist as they come, and I know right from wrong, by the fact that “What you do not wish upon yourself, extend not to others.” *
*That’s confusius by the way, not jesus
June 20th, 2007 at 3:18 pm
“IN THE ANME OF ALLAH, THE MESRCIFUL AND MOST COMPASIONATE”
Salam alaykom to u all,
brother muhammed….
same story about uthman? the only sacrifice uthamn made was to stael the clipha. and infact u just contradicted urself, u highlighted ali (as) justice and compasion, even when the calipha was stolen from him he showed the qualities of the holy prophet (saww) and defended a man who had gone against muhammed’s (saww) command.
answer this question: why don’t you agree with the hadith of ghadir khum where ali was was chosen by muhammed to succed even when it ti in your hadith books as well.
and yazid, do you not accept he was a bad person, let me tell you who put him in power….
uthman placed family members across the islamic empire dispite their lack of islamic qualities (something ali (as) did not do because of his justice when he FINALLY became caliph), therefore instead of acknowliging Ali (as) as the caliph, muwia wanted the power for himself. at this point the ummayids formed. muawia had signed a peace treaty that hassan (as) would succed, now lets see who took over YAZID (may allah’s cursings be upon him).
throughout their lives the ahlulbayt have been opreesed by these hypocrital muslims (muawia, yazid ect). at what point did umar, abu bakr or uthman have the right to take the calipaha. stop denying it, ali was elected because of his fair ways. he was a muslim befor ethe others, he was a muslim at the time where it was hardest where muhammed was critisized and abused.
and u r trying to say umar and the other so called caliphs had the same justical qualities? i dont think so…i hate to say it but if u told any1 the full story it , these people would be seen as unfaithful to our prophet turning against him after his death…
may allah bless u…
June 20th, 2007 at 8:32 pm
I just have one question for you, do you believe in God’s destiny?, because you contradict what Muslims believe in.
Muslims believe a God will, if Abu Baker and Omar and Ottman wan meant to be the first Caliphs, that wouldn’t happen with out God will and his destiny, nobody would chang that, and you should know better.
You are telling me that I’m contradicting my self because I show Ali is mercifull and just, when did you hear me saying something against that, I love may be more than you do, all I want to know why Shitt crying about it, you are like Jews crying about the Hollacust.
It’s over and God will prevailed and you should look for future instead of crying about it.
The other thing who are you to critisize Omar ot Abu Baker, these people helped Muhammed big deal, and he promised them heaven like Ali, and there is no difference between any of them.
Tell me one thing, Ottman was know that was he so rich, how much money did he have when he died, what the calipha added to them.
June 21st, 2007 at 4:37 am
@Mohammed,
I thought humans had free will and they can control their own destiny(and f**k themselves up in the process) according to islam…
Care to make yourself more clear on that point?
June 21st, 2007 at 12:41 pm
I’m sorry - I vowed not to post here again, but I cannot let this stand unremarked upon:
Mohammed wrote:
you are like Jews crying about the Hollacust.
Would those be the same Jews taking in your fellow Muslims in Gaza who have been shot and otherwise wounded by your fellow Muslims in Gaza because your fellow Muslims in the rest of the region will not take them in? Would you be talking about those Jews? The same Jews that your fellow Muslims who have not been wounded are begging to take them in to protect them from your fellow Muslims who are butchering your fellow Muslims? All the while, of course, insisting that that the murders of your fellow Muslims by your fellow Muslims is the fault of the Jews and the USA? Your fellow Muslims are begging for sanctuary from a nation they have vowed to destroy. That’s a very pretty picture of your fellow Muslims, eh?
Why do you people even talk with this obvious ignoramoous and bigot?
June 21st, 2007 at 2:08 pm
“IN THE NAME OF ALLAH, THE MERCIFUL AND COMPASIONATE”
Salam alaykom,
before i begin i would like to thank for ‘proofnottruth’ for making the point “your fellow Muslims who are butchering your fellow Muslims”
that is soo true, for example take modern day iraq, the extremists are going around beheading the shias and terrorising their lives…. (and don’t anyone dare call that a lie, coz i know that for a fact…)
for my second point @ muhammed…
why do us shias mourn over the death of al-hussain (as)?
i’ll tell u why, for one thing u obviously don’t understand what a major sacrifice was made by hussain (as), he gave his soul and life in order to keep u on the right track… hussain’s sacrifice had a purpose, what was it? oh yh to make sure we follow true islam.
mourning is not just remembering our beloved hussain (as), it has a spiritual effecrt as welll, TO REMEMBER HIS SACRIFICE, HENCE REMEMBER ITS PURPOSE!!!!!!
if we forgot about hussain’s sacrifice than i promise u slowly it won’t seem as a sacrifice at all but instead a battle.
i know a couple of people my self who hav converted to islam and even converted to shias from sunnis, why because of hussayns sacrifice and seeing us remember his death. every yr we remeber this heroic figure.
you are comparing the holocaust with the tragedy of karbala? i know thet the holocaust was terrible and it should not have happened, but those who suffered, did they suffer like hussayn? did they have the choice of living and dieing? would they be considered martyrs like hussayn? NO NO NO.
what you seem to be wishing to do, is to cover up what happened. if do not remember the sacrifice then we will (or our future generation will) forget, and may even think of islam differently.
also it seems our freind ‘agony’ knows a bit about islam more than u may do. allah (swt) has provided us with freewill, he has NOT predestined us otherwise there would be no point in life. he is AWARE of our destiny but has given us freewill to do as we wish, to do right or wrong.
who am i to crititisiz eabu bakr and othman and umar? i am nobody, but let me tell you somthing? why did they steal the calipha? why did thety go against the prophets command? does this not represent them as hypocritical and as traiters to the prophet?
if someone is good, then it does not neccessery mean they will be good for the rest of their lives. they were KAFIRS at one point in their lives then became extremely good people, and then became greedy and decided to elect a caliph among themselves rather than stick to the prophets command. so u believe that just because allah (swt) did not give ali the calipha it means he wasnt entitled to it. wrong.
this is exactly the purpose of life. so that allah will see who will stick by the orders of his prophet and stick to true islam rather than do what they want.
i know allah made the caliphs caliphs, because if he didnt it would not have happened. every thing taken place is with allah s (swt), power and order. evn the bad stuff.
basically, by saying that umar and the others were the caliphs you are denying the fact that allah is making the bad things happen in today’s world. you are missing the point, this whole arguement is a waste of my time, because i have told you that the prophet chose ali by allah’s (swt) order, it is a fact, proven with our hadiths and yours.
STOP denying it ok? you cant admit that abu bakr and uthman and umar stole the calipha. muhammed is a wise man he would not leave the islamic ummah unguided and in a situation of confusion.
you can not call what i say a lie, us humans are limited in our intellect, if we can not visualize somthing or see it, we will not believe in it. after the event of ghadir, many people including ur so called ‘caliphs’ congratulated ali (as), but thats what allah wanted, ali may have been opressed but we will defend his name. i don’t blame u, i am assuming u were born into a sunni family, hence u were nertured into believing what u do. imagine u were born into a different faith? would u have been intelligent enough to explore and find out the truth?
this is so ironic, the way how people (im not saying u), are born into a faith and then are narrow minded and think that everyone else is stupid and wrong because of what they believe differs to theirs. thats why there is no peace on earth, people arguing about who is right and who isn’t, we need religious harmony.
“There is no compulsion in religion, truly the right way has clearly became distinct from error; therefore, whoever disbelieves in shaitan and believes in allah he has indeed laid hold on the firmest handle…’ (2:256)
brother muhammed, read over what i have written, i respect u and your veiws but you must understand the true tragedy of karbala and that it was done for us to remember, why is it the family of the prophet were so opressed and the shias are still today?
just because the prophet left does it mean allah (swt) does not exist? we believe the family of the prophet should have become caliphs because of their wisdom and intellect. their qualities with no doubt outshined the others, ali was picked and deserved the calipah first, if he had it first, then he could choose his successor, hassan (as), but no muawia had to steal the calipha once agin, and then yazid and so on. these people were not muslims, just hypocrites…
look at this, the sunnis have buried ubu bakr, uthman and umar next to our blessed prophet (saww), but they refused to bury his grandchildren (imams), look at were hassan, al-sajad, al-baqir, al sadiq (as) are buried?
there graves are worse than many muslim ones today. infact when hussayn (as) carried his brother hassan (as), to be buried next to his grandfather (saw), aisha ordered not for it to happen and ordered arrows to be fired at the body of our beloved imam (as). hussain (as) could easily taken them all out, but he had patience and compasion, something ur so called caliphs lacked! because they were traiters.
and u ask why sdo you shia mourn over something that happened in the past!!!
look at how opressed we have been? how we are treated, and even by some considered kufar? look at our historical figures who all died martrs. this is the islam our prophet introduced, what good would it have been if in the future it turned corrupt? it was the duties of our imams to preserve it because only they could. not anyone else, our imams were sinless, pious (mumins) from their childhood to their deaths…
may allah bless u brother…
June 21st, 2007 at 9:46 pm
Muslim Boy,
You agreed with proof not truth, and it’s ok, the fellow Muslims kill fellows Muslims because they are stupids falling for American and Israeli plans so easy, and let me remind you with something, who brought USA to Iraq, was it Sunni or Shii, you will tell because Sadam with a stupid person which I gree with, but Sadam was using American weapons to kill your people.
There is no way that I’m comparing Hussien to the Jews, I comparing between the way you keep crying.
Agony knows better than me, I never denied that, he might knows better than me in things that he care about, the things that he knows it would hurt Islam and he tries to promote to it, and I think you about to join him soon.
I didn’t know about Shitt till I came to USA, I never heard about the Shii before, all I heard of my father that the Iraq people are doomed because what they did to Ali, and I didn’t understand what is he refering to.
I’m not against you or your faith, I only know logic, and you said that was god will, so as you know God is wise and he had a reason for it, and I don’t know if the Haddith you keep telling is weak or strong, all I know that there is logic, if you think about it, you will see how good was Abu Baker and Omar and Ottman.
Still one question for you to answer, what Abu Baker(he was rich), and Omar( he use to wear batched garment), and Ottman ( he was rich too), and they all died with no money left to them get out of being caliphs.
June 22nd, 2007 at 12:34 pm
And I still wonder if mohammed will ever answer me…
June 22nd, 2007 at 1:54 pm
“IN THE NAME OF ALLAH THE MERCIFUL THE COMPASIONATE”
Salam alaykom dear brothers and sisters,
first of all, we had no other choice, live under saddam’s rule and get tortured for being shias, or let the americans get rid of him. as a result now terrorists are using it as an opurtunity to terrorize the country, butcher innocent women, children and men in an attempt to trigger civil war between the shias and sunnis.
i have nothing against the sunna, how do i know theya re not better muslims than my self? but religion is only the outer case, i hate to admit it but there are even athiests who have better akhlaq and have better respect than us muslims do for each other.
and you obviously don’t know the real story behind the tragedy of karbala, i know that the jews suffered and it was wrong what happened to them is different in comparison to what happened to hussain. they didn’t have the choice of living. that is what happened with the will of allah, another example of allah doing something not beniting them but is still mercy, because it could have been worse. if there was no pain or suffereing then we would already be in heaven, there would be no need for an afterlife.
any way, hussyn, had the choice of doing wrong and giving alliance to yazid and living, but instead he defended the word of muhammed (saw), preserving the true islam, hussayn gave his soul and his head (just to remind you that yazid had the heads of the shuhada (martyrs), on spears) rather than give in to an unjust man.
you ask why we mourn over our beloved hussayn, hussayns aim was to show us the true islam, his aim was not for us to bleed like the above images, that is people doing what they want not representing all the shias.
if we do not remember what happened to hussayn, then the tragedy will be forgotten. if my ancestors had not remembered, then i may have not found out the true story or mabye not know hussayn was at all. how do you expect to understand hussayn’s sacrifice, if you do not even know who yazid was. if it wasn’t for uthman, than yazid would not be in power, going back to the point were ali (as) should have had the calipha, how do u think i must feel when i hear a lady say that hussayn was fighting for the calipha!!!!!
don’t you think its my duty to spread the truth of what happened at karbala, you do not know how opressed hussayn and his followers were, even after hussayns death, the captives were dragged to damascuc in front of yazid (may allah’s cursings be upon him), when yazid saw the head of hussayn, a noble and honarable man who was spreading the truth, he accpted it as revenge aginst the holy prophet (saw) for killing his foprefathers.
if hussayn’s tragedy is not remembered then what would be the point of it happening, why didn’t hussayn just give in and let us turn corrupt? i want our future generation to know what i know. not treat it as a history lesson, this person the grandson of our blessed prophet (saww), slaughtered and crushed? people have converted to islam after understanding this story, even non-muslims have cried over this opressed figure, islam is not just pray and fast, its to prohibit bad and encourage good.
“it would hurt Islam and he tries to promote to it, and I think you about to join him soon.”
who are you to say that, all i am saying is the calipha was stolen, and u know it. since when was ubu bakr, uthman or umar entitled to the claipha. ali outshone them all with his qualities. even when they were caliphs, he showed them respect and protection. yet look at the way they treated him when he should have been caliph, burn his house and kill fatima.
why do some wish to twist and turn the truth,
and say fatima died in her blossoming youth,
why is the grave of fatima concealed for in her praise surat al-kuather was revealed,
look at the prophet’s ahlulbayt, sinless, pious and opressed. you call what ubu bakr and umar and uthamn represented true islam?
why do keep not answering my questions?
why was thecalipha stolen, why was muhammeds command ignored, the reasonali never fought back was because he was patient and merciful unlike your caliphs. who started as kufar and converted to islam with muhammeds presence.
look how close ali was to muhmmed, ali was the reason the muslims were victorious at khaybar when they defeated the jews, ali was the only brave man to stand up to ‘wahshi’ who had the reputation of being one of the strongest in arabia, where where umar ububakr and uthamn. were they cowards to stand up when the prophet called. who was the first man to embrace islam, ALI (as), and at teh age of 7. while ur caliphs mocked the holy prophet and laughed.
where is ur proof that ur calipjhs should have been first, ali was chosen by the prophet, don’t make me repeat the sentence, read what i wrote before.
u say ali didnt care that he was chosen as caliph, ur talking about the calipha as if it were a business
“what Abu Baker(he was rich), and Omar( he use to wear batched garment), and Ottman ( he was rich too), and they all died with no money left to them get out of being caliphs.”
then why did they steal the calipaha? answer that, did muhammed say and i base what i say on rational and logic.
i know allah is wise, but what he makes happen does not necceraly mean that it beniting man kind. for example, if everything allah did from our eyes was not causing harm or suffereing, then what is the point of life, it would be heaven, no stealing, no killing, no arguewing everyone would be following one way of life.
the whole idea of this life is to seperate the good from the bad in the hereafter (refer to the last verse i stated).
allah made umar and the rest caliphs to test our loyalty. would we be hypocrites and go aginst muhammed’s word? u think ali and even muhammed were not aware the calipha would be stolen? but thats why they were high figures in islam, because they had the quality of patience.
brother, my aim is to give u facts and for u to analyse them. i can offer no more i’m only a kid. its up to u to make judgements, imagine u were not born a sunni, would u still be defending that faith?
thats why its illogical to just be accepting what we are born with, obviously i understand that isalm is logical, i was born a muslim but i want to be a muslim by nature and not just by name. as hard as it may be, understand who hussayn was and why he did what he did, not just from the sunni school of thought but in comparson to the shia school of thought…
i hope what i have offered has helped, inshala allah (swt) will have mercy upon us all and forgive our sins, on the day of judgement when we rise, imagine how happy we must be if we had been good peopel in this life.
“Surely for those who gaurd aginst evil (pious) is achievment”(78:31)
allah has provide d us with freewill, he is aware of our future but has not predestined our future.
for example, your school of thought believe that allah can put a bad person in heaven and a good person in hell and that would still be the right thing and no one can say anything…
we believe in the same but we believe he is soo just that he WOULD NOT do it out of his justice.this is reffering to the hearafter.
what you believe is similar to what u are saying about the calipha, that because it happened it must be good because allah only does good things in this world.
allah did it and he knew they didnt deserve it, but he is testing our loyalty. just for ur information, in the past a high proportion of egypt was shia (hence the fatimiyas), but afterwards a sunni government made strickt laws against the shias and therefore forced the shia population to decrease.
i will defend the name of ali (as), until my dwath (hopefully…). this life is finate. we should use it as a ladder to do good in order to have a good infinate herafter.
may allah bless u all…
June 22nd, 2007 at 1:54 pm
Agony wrote:
And I still wonder if mohammed will ever answer me…
No, of course not. Not if you asked anything of substance that was based on a fact that contradicted the idea that Islam is the most enlightened view of life there is.
And notice how predictable he (Mohammed) once again reveals himself to be. It’s the USA and the Jews that are causing the Muslims to pull the trigger. It’s the Jews and the USA who are making adults who will never risk their lives (bin Laden for example and his lieutenants)convince children (babies even) that their highest destiny is to commit suicide in the course of murdering as many people as possible. And instead of addressing the very real problems that Islam causes for everyone, its adherents as well as it victims, he is fighting a 1400 year old battle with Muslim Boy - who by the way also sidestepped the issue of the anti-Jewish racism built into Islam and the blaming of Muslim crimes on anybody but Muslims.
This is a person who has revealed that he believes semen comes from the backbone, that Islam did not spread by the sword and ended “slavery” wherever it went(news to all the people they killed and enslaved as they conquered North Africa and Southern Spain and tried repeatedly to invade the rest of Europe - all hundreds of years before the first crusade by the way), who believes that any one who points out what Muslimns are verifiably doing all over the world is a merely a racist who watches too much Fox News because it shouldn’t be the brutal murders committed by Muslims that has non-Muslims worried - after all if the Jews and the USA would just stop making Muslims murder people everything would be OK. You know all those Jews in Thailand who are making Muslims murder Buddhists, for example. Or all those Phillipino Jews who are making Muslims murder non-Muslims in the Phillipines. Or all those Jews and other Americans who are making Muslims murder Jews and other Americans. Is it that Muslims are so feeble and brain-dead that they can be worked like puppets by apes and pigs?
Anyone want to place bets on how many people will be dead on Monday morning because Salman Rushdie was knighted? I’m certain we’ll see a higher than usual death toll from Muslim hurt feelings over the weekend. And why shouldn’t people die? After all, Islam was insulted - by Jews (aka in the Koran “pigs and apes”) and Americans and the British.
Go to CAIR.com and see what they think is important: The savage oppression and discrimination that American Muslims suffer: spraypaint! words! Ham sandwiches! O, the horror.
Though there are probably Muslims who have found a way through the minefield of their religion to emerge as decent people (maybe even thousands of them), the fact remains that unreformed Islam is odious in concept and most of its expression.
June 22nd, 2007 at 2:12 pm
Salman rushdie was knighted? Allright!
Proof, That’s exactly how I feel about it, I would have written the same, but i’ve given up on mohamed and this whole pointless discussion here.
June 22nd, 2007 at 5:07 pm
Alcari - Exactly. The pointless, self-congratulatory glass bead game being played on here by non-Muslims would be harmless if it were not that so many Muslims want to kill all the rest of us. You read about the recent PEW poll of Muslims in the US that revealed that over 100,000 young Muslims in the USA believe terrorist murder is acceptable. Think about it. 9/11 was carried out by 19 men.
And, yes, the Queen knighted Salman Rushdie and it is being construed as nothing more than a declaration of war on Islam. So thousands of people will riot all weekend, people who are mostly illiterate even in their native languages and thus have never even read the book! But be assured people must (in their opinion) and will die because Islam has been insulted.
Don’t Muslims understand none of us ever cared enough about Islam to bother with it until they started murdering everyone in sight.
I just can’t leave all the words to them and the moral equivalency crowd which is so well represented on this board. You know, those people who seem to actually believe that Christianity and Islam are equally bad. I am not a Christian, by the way, or a Jew or a follower of any religion.
For the record, I am a 60 year old life-long Democrat who does watch Fox News (the Sunday news panel show)and other conservative news shows as well as ABC News (liberal), The News Hour with Jim Lehrer, Washington Week with Gwen Ifill, and Now - all on PBS, considered the most liberal media outlet in the nation. I also read a wide range of political publications from far right to far left with many stops in between. I read jihadwatch.com and CAIR.com as well as other pro-Islamic sites and anti-Islamic sites. Can Mo say the same? And I opposed the invastion of Iraq as illegal and unnecessary.
June 22nd, 2007 at 6:23 pm
Are you ready for the answer, are you going to do what I tell you?
Are you going to listen to what I want you to get the answer.
Proof of truth, do you know that sometimes watch Fox news, furthermore I watch the stupid Bill orielly, and even sometimes I agree with some points of his( weried Huh), I could listen to what ever you can think of.
Even my wife is getting angry that I watch this people, and my answer always is that I like to see how people view and how they like to twist the truth.
We didn’t start murder any body, the plastenian getting murderd for 80 years now on the world watch, and what did you do about, you still crying about the hollacust and yet you don’t even bother about the Jews doing to Palestine.
Want to watch news, and I’m not going to tell you watch Eljazeera, I’m not going to let you go that far, just watch the BBC, and you will different kind of news, thing that you didn’t hear of.
When you say Muslis start to kill people, you stereo type the whole Muslims, I didn’t kill anybody and I have no intention to kill an animal even, there is big differnece what they Islam say and what the Muslims do.
June 23rd, 2007 at 5:07 am
Guess my question got lost again in all the talk here(weird how I always need to post a question 3+ times to get an answer out of Mohammed)
@Mohammed,
you said:
Muslims believe a God will, if Abu Baker and Omar and Ottman wan meant to be the first Caliphs, that wouldn’t happen with out God will and his destiny, nobody would chang that, and you should know better.
My question: I thought we have free will, and can make the right or wrong choice, so perhaps Abu-Baker, Omar and Otman were just some wrong choices made by HUMANS.
An additional question: Are you saying that bin-laden, terrorists, 9/11, israel’s war with lebanon, both world wars and the current state of ignorance in which all(or close enough) moslem countries live is also part of god’s supposed “destiny” for us?
@Muslim boy, could you give an answer to the above questions from your perspective? it’s way easier to get answers from you than from Mohammed. Thank you very much for your help so far I learned a lot.
June 23rd, 2007 at 11:52 am
We believe in free will when it comes to choices, if you want to be Muslims or Christian or another, that’s your free will, we believe that if you are going to be a king or president, that’s written before you even born, the other thing that is written is when you are going to be born, and even your name is written and the money you will make, your marriage, and the time and the place you are going to die at, other than that every thing is choice, you want to go drink that’s your choice, you want to go gamble that’s your choice.
Our prophet told Muslims that at one point they are going to be weak and in state of ignorance like you say, so they aske him why, is it because we are going to be a few in the world, he said “no, there will be so many Muslims, but they are not heard, they are like foam on the water surface, if you blow this foam, it will go away”
I hope that answers your question.
June 23rd, 2007 at 1:38 pm
Let’s set a scene: In an outdoor cafe in London, a group of 20 men, women, and children are eating lunch. A radical Islamic suicide bomber drives a car into the middle of the cafe and detonates a vest bomb.
According to Mohamed, the time and place of these 21 people’s deaths is predetermined, yet they all had free will. If the bomber had not chosen to become a bomber (thus going against Mohamed’s idea of true Islam), he somehow would have still ended up at the cafe and all 21 people would have still died at the exact same moment.
Let’s go to a larger scale. Hiroshima. If no scientists in the world had chosen to study the atom, all of the residents of Hiroshima would still have died simultaneously. How could this be possible? Perhaps a great flood or earthquake? Not only that, but all of the scientists who had chosen different paths in life would have married the same people, and made the same amount of money, regardless of what choices they made.
Mohamed, I can’t accept a definition of free will that fixes your name, marriage, salary, and time of death. Those are 4 huge aspects of anyone’s life. Why bother going to work, or out to meet people, or maintaining your health, if nothing you do will change your predetermined salary or spouse or death?
Why bother manufacturing air bags, safety belts, fire extinguishers, hard hats, medicine, vaccinations, or any other “life saving” device when Allah has predetermined when you will die? No life saving device can stop it.
June 23rd, 2007 at 4:30 pm
Mohammed, you keep saying it’s “Our” fault that the palastinians and isrealites are killing themselves and eachother. Just out of curiosity, what do you want done about it?
Also, I second Andrew’s question about free choice, your view is self-contradictory.
June 23rd, 2007 at 5:18 pm
@Mohammed,
Yes indeed. That is an answer to my question, but I would like to ask another question:
Some people convert to a certain religion because of the person they marry. If marriage is already pre-decided, doesn’t that kind of affect his free will(his choice) ?
June 23rd, 2007 at 7:08 pm
To follow religion is to really believe in it, if somebody converts because of his spouse, that’s not believing, they called hypocracy.
That’s why Islam doesn’t enocurage oppression in religion, bcause we don’t hypocrate in our religion, being Muslim is devote your self to good, some people say we are Muslims, but only God know what they have inside( still free will).
June 24th, 2007 at 5:29 am
@Mohammed,
That’s simply not what I meant.
Take a man who spent his life not knowing much about islam, but he met and fell in love and married a woman who so happened to be a moslem, and showed him the truth about islam. I say him marrying that particular woman made him convert(not FOR the woman, but because she showed him - as you’d call it - the light).
So how exactly does free will stack up against that?
(I could make the same argument about money: someone who has more than enough money might get an internet connection and talk to Mohammed on religious freaks, or buy a book about islam, someone who doesn’t won’t spend the money on something like this and thus die ignorant of the “true” religion)
June 24th, 2007 at 10:56 am
I got what you mean now, it’s really good point and I had this question for some Muslims about this issue I think from 10 years ago, I really didn’t get clear answer, which because the people that I asked, actually didn’t know a lot about Islam, I’m really happy you asked me this question, because that’s something I want to know too. Right now I don’t have an answer for it, which means that I don’t know.
The only thing that I know is God is merciful, and he knows who know about Islam and who didn’t, and God will judge everybody with just and I think that 9/11 might hurt Muslims as individuals, but I think it served Islam big deal, because as you said alot of people didn’t know about Islam, so after 9/11 they tried to read and know about Islam, and some of those found that Islam is different than the media shows up, and they converted.
I think everbody knows about Islam now, but I still search for answer for your question and I hope I find tha answer soon.
June 24th, 2007 at 11:31 am
“IN THE NAME OF ALLAH, THE BENEFICENT, THE ALL COMPASIONATE”
Salam alaykom dear brothers and sisters,
@ agony,
its nice to see that you have asked this question as it is a very good one,
from a muslim point of veiw, allah (swt), has not predestined our fate, as he is all knowing he is aware of our future actions but has given us the freewill of choosing what it is. if thisn was not true, then this life would be pointless as we would not be able to control our moves and on the day of judgement god would be punishing us for something that was out of our control and hence would neither be merciful of just of him.
the exammple you gave about the man and the moslem lady, he still had the freewill to not convert, but he made his decision to convert. i hate it when people say that islam was spread by the sword that is WRONG. not once has the word sword neither how to use it been used in the holy quran. islam is a religion supporting peace and justice, those islamic extremist aka terroruists are hypocrites and are damaging true islam.
brother agony, im sorry if i can not offer more, i really appreciate your time in posing these questions, but im only a kid im limited in providing an answer, if you want you can listen to lectures and read books about the subjects from different veiwpoints. (hassanain rajabali is a good example of a lecturer, hes very good)
i hope my lord allah (swt), can provide you with the answers you need through his infinate mercy,
and as for you brother muhammed it has also been a pleasure debating with you,
mashala you both are intelligent people and may allah bless you all.
June 24th, 2007 at 12:04 pm
Omniscience can not logically coexist with free will. If God already knows what will happen, then it is impossible to choose differently than what God predicts.
There is a simple magic trick to show how this works. The magician asks you to pick a card out of what appears the be a standard deck of playing cards and put in in your pocket. You pick the 3♣. He then hands you a sealed envelope with a piece of paper inside. You open the envelope and it reads, “The card in your pocket is the 3♣. You appear to have free will, because you were allowed to choose your card. However, the deck wasn’t a standard deck — all the cards in it were the same card. That is the way that the magician knew with 100% certainty what your card was when he wrote the letter and sealed in in the envelope.
An omniscient God is like that magician. We have the illusion that we are making our own choices, but our choices have already been made for us by the very fact that God already knows the answer.
But there is an answer to this. Believe that God is near-omniscient. If God were very, very good at statistics he would be able to PREDICT our behavior with uncanny accuracy without KNOWING it.
The magician this time has a much larger deck of cards. Ten billion cards, in fact. All but one are the 3♣, the other is an A♥. The magician will hand you the same envelope. He is know longer 100% certain, but will only be wrong 1 time in 10 billion. There is a very strong chance he will never be wrong in your lifetime or even in hundreds of lifetimes. And when he is wrong, his agent can just sweep it under the carpet.
A God that is very, very good at statistics and very experienced can seem omniscient without giving up free will. Of course, this is heresy in all the Abrahamic religious (except some extreme offshoots).
June 24th, 2007 at 1:44 pm
Thank Muslims boy for debating, it was honor to debate with you.
June 25th, 2007 at 2:51 am
@Muslim Boy,
Don’t worry we’re all more or less kids here.
@Muslim Boy, Mohammed,
Let’s take this scenario:
A child is born in an urban area, drugs, crime, even murder are things he sees everyday. That kid has a much higher probability to become a criminal than kid that was raised in a proper family, went to a nice school and watched the nice cartoons in his free time.
They certainly both do have free will, but some are more free than others. How does god’s perfectly free will hold up against such situations?
you can take other examples such as a family where his parents abused him, doesn’t affect my question.
June 25th, 2007 at 6:15 pm
Every humanbeing has a hard times sometimes and face a lot of tests, you always has brain and mind to think about it.
You can choose your fate, either cry and blame everybody, or take the test and go through it and be a better person.
It’s easier to blame circumstances than go through it.
June 25th, 2007 at 11:59 pm
Are you trying to tell me that the way a child was raised does NOT affect his personality?
You sir are contradicting basic psychology.
June 26th, 2007 at 12:40 am
You guys are just arguing nature vs. nurture, except Mohamed seems to think that nature is by choice, for which there is little to no evidence. You’re born with a basic set of instructions that forms who and what you are; you can’t chose this, you’re just born with it. After that, pretty much everything else is decided by environment. There is very little, if any, free will.
On the other hand, I would like to think my resistance to “the ways of the world” is not merely genetic or learned from my parents or a combination of the two. Still, that doesn’t mean it is true, but I honestly would like to think it is a result of conscious choices based on somewhat reasonable evaluations - evaluations, I might add, which I was afforded the luxury of by my environment, despite the gripes I’ve had with it over the years.
Free will? Not likely, but if true, is minuscule compared to the sheer magnitude of predetermination. We do after all, live in a universe governed by the linear laws of cause and effect.
Mohamed, I think you are ignoring this in your assertion that hard times are ultimately tests that we can decide to pass or fail. Surely in many cases, such an attitude would be beneficial, but in the long term it is better to face the cold facts of reality or else face further suffering due to not dealing with the problems you face in a more rational manner.
June 26th, 2007 at 1:18 am
That’s the difference between somebody who believs and somebody who don’t, if you believe, you know it’s test, you can’t give up, that’s what Muslims is about, you get test after one, and you say thank God.
I really don’t believe in psycology, it doesn’t explain alot, it’s just way to explain behavior, which is not accurate most of the time.
You can see a lot of NBA players, raised in bad cirumstances, but they were able to make it through, they didn’t cry, they worked hard to reach where they are now.
And you see alot of rich well raised people coming from a good family, and they fall for drugs.
One more thing, I’ve seen alot of people who went crazy with no reason, and yet psycology has now asnwer for it.
I’m not against scince, I just against some of it, and it turn out to be the Psycology and Evolution is explaination for man creation(theories).
June 26th, 2007 at 1:38 am
Please, clearly demonstrate a logical path from a to b, otherwise you aren’t actually making an argument. You are simply making an assertion, which is probably best understood as an opinion not backed up by rational thought, or at least not demonstrating rational thought.
I know you posses intelligence and you CAN do it if you try. It’s just that I don’t think you are grasping the difference between how you are communicating and what is practical (good in and/or for practice; in application, applicable to reality, or logical).
I’m sorry if this sounds mean.
June 26th, 2007 at 2:23 am
@mohamed
we all know NBA players are not exactly prone to drug use, crime, and other sorts of anti-social behaviour. way to argue, haji.
June 26th, 2007 at 3:56 am
Not only that, for most of them, basketball was the only way out. It only stands to reason that some of them would make it, but obviously the vast majority do not.
June 26th, 2007 at 3:58 am
…and can not, since it would be IMPOSSIBLE for anymore than a few.
Also, is name calling really the best thing, boris?
June 26th, 2007 at 2:04 pm
in the name of allah, the merciful, the all compasionate
salam alaykom, brothers/sisters, it is very hard to argue if freewill exists if the opposing side of the arguement fails to acknowledge gods existence. at the moment, brother muhammed seems to be doing a good job.
we have been given freewill to use, however if we fail to control it the result of that freewill may have an affect on others. for example, the example set by brother andrew about the suicide bomber (i don’t think there was any need to call it an islamist extremist, extremist on its own would have been sufficient)and the people in the cafe.
the suicide bomber had the freewill to become a suicide bomber or to not become one. by choosing to do what he/she this, their freewill has resulted in the death of others.
if allah (swt) has provided us with freewill but at a limited level, if we had coomplete freewill then life itself would be impossible because humans have so much impact on each other, the world is not perfect, there is all sorts of bad things going on and it is vital we are patient and do our best to impress no other than God through good deeds and refraining from sin.
i mean look at today’s world, look at all the unjust people going without being properly punished, all the terrorists who are destroying lives and causing mayhem, and on top of that claiming it top be true islam!
oh allah, you are so merciful, yet we humans are so ignorant and unthankful.
“most surely man is ungrateful to his lord (allah)” (100:6)
people have come up with many theories to try and develop the idea that god was not the creator. remember these are only theories, they cannot ever become fact without proper evidence like for instance the holy quran.
how amazing the holy quran is, prophet musa (pbuh) had his miracles as well as prophet issa (pbuh), but the holy quran was one of the miracles of allah who revealed it to muhammed (saw). no one could change the holy quran, from the beggining till now not one word has changed from this glorious book that just by reading it or listning to its recitation you feel spirtitually elavated.
this is not only a book that clarifies god’;s existance but also look how it informs us about science. if scientists had bothered studying this holy book, they may have had the results much earlier. this is a book of glory, if we follow it we shall be successfull.
may allah have mercy upon us all
i remember someone asking that why would we believe the word of the prophet (saww). here we go back to the point were us humans are limited, were we must see something in order to believe in it. just because we were
June 26th, 2007 at 2:08 pm
carrying on: … unable to see somthinhg does not means it does not exist’
June 26th, 2007 at 2:10 pm
i didnt get ur last post about the prophet saws and us being limited?
What is being debated at this current tym?
June 26th, 2007 at 6:43 pm
Arktis,
Just let Boris says what he wants, mostly I don’t care about what he says, the other thing he called me something I would like to be, if I understood him right.
I don’t my point is wrong, I think if somebody leave every thing to circumstances, and give up, there will be no hope.
NBA players, don’t forget that NBA player is graduated from college too, and if you notice most of them are good managers after finishing their career, they just used what they are good at, while the other they didn’t even bother to see what they are good at and go from there, the other keep crying and they didn’t fight, do you think it’s God fault, that they want to earn fast money.
I knew a lot of people had a horrible circumstances, but they were able to get out of it, because they didn’t keep crying that they discrminated against, and their father didn’t help them.
You can change your life and you have the choice to do it, is it god fault that you might be a friend for a bad person who drags you drug and etc.
June 26th, 2007 at 7:56 pm
@Mohammed, do us all a favor and re-read what he said. You are merely repeating yourself.
@shii’tte muslim,
If scientist studied your Quran instead of observing how nature works we’d still be riding donkeys and doing prayers for rain. Seriously there are just so many mistakes in the quran I wonder how anybody can read it without seeing at last some!
And I always thought you either have free will or you don’t. is there something like “yeah you do have free will, but I have predetermined that whatever you chose your spouse will end up being ms.X, you have no free will in that matter”?
June 26th, 2007 at 8:08 pm
Agony, how could I get him evidence, I talked about experience and things I have seen.
You assert that I shouldn’t compare between somebody born in a bad circumstances and somebody have a nice parents, and I’m telling you it doesn’t work that way, you are the who can change your life, you have a free will, God put you in test, to see if you are able to get out of it or not, and believe me all people get this test(circumstances) somehow.
So if your spouse is writting in the sky, that’s not just.
By the way Quran has no mistakes, Quran described accuratly how the baby form in his mom womb, and you can check the Quran and check the scintest descreption, and I can get you videos approving my word, and show you scientest approving the Quran description, and if you want the Ayah I will get it for you.
June 27th, 2007 at 11:02 am
The simple question I would like you to answer, Mohammed, is how can someone have free will if the time of their death is already known? If Allah knows that they will die at exactly 4:32 pm on July 14th, 2014, then how can they truly be free to make choices that affect the outcome of their life?
June 27th, 2007 at 1:22 pm
in the name of allah, the glorious the merciful
people,
@ agony
mohammed is right, the quran has no mistakes
“this book, there is no doubt in it, it is a gauide for those who gaurd against evil” (2:2)
this holy quran is a miracle,
@ andrew
u r tryin 2 say we dont have freewill? thats what i mean when i say there is a limit, we cant have complete freewill otherwise what u just said would be impossible because it would mean we choose our death place and time.
allah is so just that he has provided us with a balance of freewill. look at this life, how can anybody say this life is the final, this is a life which is used for us to make our moves either good or bad. without this life as a testing environment, allah allah uses our actions as evidence for putting us in hell or in heaven.
and a s for scientists, i didnt say they shouldnt use science (ie observing nature), i meant they should have used the quran as well.
this debate is purely for someone to express their opinions, for example earlier muhammed and muslim boy were comparing their differences, they aim is not to convert anyone, and btw the idea of islam being spread by the sword is outrageous, TRUE islam is a religion of peace. thats TRUE ISLAM, not what tehse terrorists are going around doing an dclaiming to be islam, if anything these terrorists are hypocrites and infact are doing the complete opposite of what true islam teaches.
thats y in modern society there is such few ppl who actually obey the rules of true islam and allah the all glorious and compasionate will reward them.
we have many choices, it is up to us what we believe in. allah is just, he will judge an individual based on their living conditions in this life. thats why allah is the best of judges, he is all knowing.
o my lord o allah, you are merciful yet mankind is unthankfull, protect us from evil,
you are the greatest of teh great.
June 27th, 2007 at 5:22 pm
@Mohammed,
Not evidence, a stream of logical arguments beginning with what we all agree on and ending with whatever you want to show would be nice.
I think I did mention the contradictions to you in another thread here, and specifically about the example you’re talking about. IIRC you just put your fingers in your ears and sang “na na na na na that guy said it’s right so it has to be”
Let me try to reform my question a bit: Your spouse(which god chose for you) turns out to be a stupid mother f***ing b**ch, who let a man have a quiet minute to pray, fast or go to Mekkah(for fear she might kill the children). Is god deliberately sending him to hell?
Also, is Divorce freewill or predetermined by god?
@shii’tte muslim,
Using a verse in the quran to prove the quran being right is circular logic and doesn’t work.
June 27th, 2007 at 7:52 pm
What I am trying to say is that you can not have an omniscient god and freewill at the same time.
If god knows the future and is never wrong then you can not choose to do anything contrary to his prediction.
June 27th, 2007 at 7:59 pm
Agony, it seems like we have miss-communcation between me and you, and I still didn’t get your question?, I don’t mean that it’s your fault, I might not smart enough to get what you mean.
About divorce I don’t really know, I can’t guess an asnwer if I don’t know it ( the only think I know about it, divorce is the most permissablt thing that God hate, so my thinkig about that it’s free will, but I don’t know and God knows better.
Answering Anderw, life is test, so if you know when you are dying, you will do what ever for 58 years and then lase 2 or 3 years stay repenting god, which doesn’t make sense.
Agony you didn’t comment that Quran explained how the baby form in his mom’s womb, do you think Muhammed was scinetest or it was just lucky guess from his part, and as I promised I have video on Utube to approve my words and from non Muslims scientest.
June 28th, 2007 at 3:32 am
Mohammed,
Here’s your claim about islam and embryology:
http://www.answering-islam.org/Quran/Science/embryo.html
If god hates it I guess he didn’t plan it now did he? so we have free will to divorce a wife chosen for us by god? kinda makes no sense.
And just to be clear: if God already knows that i’m gonna fail in today’s exam, how can any amount of studying and preperation change that? apparently I do not have freewill even in that matter.
July 1st, 2007 at 3:26 pm
in the name of allah, the all merciful and compasionate
@agony
you cannot have full freewill, otherwise you would decide when and where you die, also you would not be limited and you would be able to obtain freely your desires, and in a way that may impair someone else’s freewill, hence they would not have full freewill.
therefore
if you had full freewill someone else wouldnt and then that would mean not everyone had freewill
for example…
if someone had the freewill do do what they wanted and they were planning to drive somewhere, however on the way, using your freewill you decided to drive your car into theirs and killing them, how does that work, in the same way the above example about the cafe was given.
nor is their a full predistened system, because god is just he is aware of what you are going to do, he knows if you will fail or succed in this life. but would it be fair for god to put you in hell even if he knows your going to fail before you actually doing your bad actions?
god is just, he will punish you after you have commited a bad action, not beforehand.
god has provided us with hands, legs, eyes etc however he has given us the freewill to decide what we want to use them for.
neither are we predestined or have complete freewill, there is a justical balance, our lord is all knowing and all powerfull….
you decide
July 1st, 2007 at 3:39 pm
carrying on….
you decide if you want to choose this life over the hereafter, this life is finate, you can ask an idiot and even he/she will tell you that, however the herafter is everlasting. all this is based on belief, believe in you lord and the holy quran. the quran is a book of truth and guidance. this is one of the miracles, i think it was you who was asking earlier what was special about the prophets (peace be upon them all), and why do we believe their word. the prophets (pbut), were infaliable they were sinless, by the order of god, they revealed miracles in order to support their claim, for instance prophet moses and the splitting of the sea or the changing of the staff into a snake, these are the kinds of things that if you saw you would understand that there is a supreme force out there which is only one.
but you were not there and you could not see it for your self, (another point about freewill, do you choose when you are born?), however the quran is a long lasting miracle, suphanallah, at the time poetry was popular, when teh prophet of allah (saww) read it aloud, even the great poets at the time acknowledged this as true poetry that could not be man written, notice how the holy quran is the only book whereby god is the primary author (ie the quran is the word of god), even in the holy quran when a prophet makes a statement allah commands him, QUL (SAY), (yeah i know muslim boy made that point as well),
wow the quran, truely a book of glory.
July 1st, 2007 at 4:34 pm
Agony,
This link is BS and you know that, there is no way for Muhammed to know that, Mohamed didn’t know how to read and write, the other thing his community didn’t even has books or what ever the link you provided claims.
The links put claims that there are contrdiction in what god says, contridiction is why I say you are saying the truth and then I say you are liar, contrdication is two facts can’t be togather, but what the links mentiond is all facts exist in human being, he created from dust, see the elements in human-being and the earthe, they both the same, may be greater may be less, but they still the same, God said he created man from water, that’s another fact, it’s not contrdication, he created him from Semens, that’s another fact, he created him from nothing, that’s another fact.
All of this facts, there is no contridication, the elments of the earth and the water, and the semens, that’s what the human being created from, it doesn’t have to be in one verse, but all make sense, and there is no contridction.
What would be contridction, if God says he created human being from fire or light, which is not fact and contrdict what the human being created from.
Good try any way, try to find something better next time.
July 1st, 2007 at 5:19 pm
Mohamed,
The beauty of religion is that one can always interpret anything in a way that makes sense with current knowledge. In fact I can interpret your two “contradictions.” So just in case any future editions of holy texts are discovered with this in them…
See, anyone can write this kind of stuff. All the religious texts are so vague and antiquated that you can always interpret them any way you choose.
July 1st, 2007 at 6:34 pm
My friend, with due respect, you can see fire and you can feel but you can hold it, and that’s doesn’t apply to human-being, and that the case about Gen and devil, they are from fire, you can’t release them, they are so fast.
July 1st, 2007 at 8:47 pm
Mohamed,
You really have just proven my point. We chose to look at different aspects of the word “fire” and came to totally separate conclusions.
Lets look at the idea that “God created man from dust” a common belief to all Abrahamic religions.
The phrase used to be interpreted to mean that because bodies decompose and turn into soil, man is actually made out of dirt.
Then people found out about how decomposition works and learned about chemicals and elements so they changed it to mean that people are made out of the same stuff as the soil.
When science advanced to show that the chemical composition of soil isn’t the same as of humans the viewpoint changed that it must mean that people are made of the same elements as the planet Earth. (Of course they are. We are from this planet — we have to be made of the same stuff.)
I have even heard it taken to the next step and interpreted to mean that people are made from atoms just like everything in the universe. Atoms are small, like dust is small, but God couldn’t explain atoms to whoever he said the phrase to, so he used the word dust.
Then the coup de grâce, instead of looking at the above and saying, “Wow, religious interpretation sure has changed to adapt to current knowledge,” the religious person says, “See, God told (insert name here) about modern science!”
July 1st, 2007 at 9:59 pm
Andrew, I really appreciate your argument, but I don’t claim I know a lot, I will show you link for videos.
The video is for debate between Chritstian pastor and Muslims scholar, and the Christian Pastor ask all the questions on your mind and more, and the Muslim scholar answered them clearly.
If you really have time and you want to see the video and see opinion from somebody knows more than me and you I promise you that you will find interesting discussion.
Before you see it, I’m not interested to convert any body, or convince any body, I’m trying to answer you claims as far as I know, but I feel I’m not the best for that, so that’s the only way that I can answre you, and thank god for the Internet exist to show people other people opinion.
Here is the first part of the debate, and the debate consist of parts, so I will provide you with the first part, and I’m sure you are Utube savvy, and you will see that you can acquire the rest of the debate, and if you couldn’t get, I will be more than happy to provid you with the rest of it.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=9155217310817697706.
Thank you I hope you enjoy the video, and I hope Agony watch the 4 parts of the video, and he will know the answrs for his question too.
July 2nd, 2007 at 2:12 pm
yo andrew, are u an athiest or theist, ur arguement is unclear…
July 2nd, 2007 at 4:06 pm
@some guy
I am an atheist. The point of many of my arguments on this thread is that when you interpret “holy” texts, you can always come up with something that sounds convincing. The simple fact it that the texts are too poetic to make prosaic arguments.
When I am done watching the 4 hours of video Mohamed has assigned me (which may take a few days), I’ll post something a little more clear.
July 3rd, 2007 at 2:51 am
@Mohammed,
Well, Andrew already answered most of the stuff you said just one more thing:
Mohammed was a trader for YEARS before he became a “prophet” not to mention that his wife’s brother Waraqa ibn Nawfal was the follower of some other Abrahamic religion(I think it was christianity), so he definitely has been in touch with:
1. MANY different cultures(traders went to India and other places IIRC).
2. both of the abrahamic religions of that time.
3. men of status whom he met during his trade and learned from.
4. poets and the like, since he resided in Mekka.
So don’t tell me “he couldn’t have known about it, he was illiterate” because no one is claiming he read it, it is sufficient for him to hear it from someone. Back then word of mouth was the best way to learn, the internet and printing press didn’t yet exist you know.
July 3rd, 2007 at 1:56 pm
bismillah al rahman al rahim
andrew, to be honest i think ur lazy, u cant accept that theer is an ultimate force out there so u try and replace it with various theories, am i right? most scientific explanations are theories, however who is to say that science and religion cant go together, infact look at the quran, it makes scientifically correct statements, if there is no religion then what are you basing your actions on, infact what are u basing ur morality on. without morality society is corrupt, u might as well be putting all ur desires into practice, if u hav no rules to follow…
the is no compulsion in religion, religion is a guidline to enter heaven, god asks u one question, do u want this life which is finate or the herafter which is infinate?
July 3rd, 2007 at 1:59 pm
bismillah al rahman al rahim
andrew, to be honest i think ur lazy, u cant accept that theer is an ultimate force out there so u try and replace it with various theories, am i right? most scientific explanations are theories, however who is to say that science and religion cant go together, infact look at the quran, it makes scientifically correct statements, if there is no religion then what are you basing your actions on, infact what are u basing ur morality on. without morality society is corrupt, u might as well be putting all ur desires into practice, if u hav no rules to follow…
the is no compulsion in religion, religion is a guidline to enter heaven, god asks u one question, do u want this life which is finate or the herafter which is infinate?…
July 3rd, 2007 at 2:34 pm
“without morality society is corrupt”
Bullshit. See this comment where I address the very same false claim made by a Christian.
“if there is no religion then what are you basing your actions on, infact what are u basing ur morality on.”
I’ve addressed this a number of times, I’ll lazily copy-and-paste a former response here:
July 3rd, 2007 at 2:44 pm
u love taking an indirect way around a question
i am asking u, what is ur theory for creation, luck? do u not value ur life? where u an accident? there is purpose in this life, there is meaning. that meaning is set by a way of living i.e religion.
i mean look at you athiests the minute som1 mentions god ur scared. u want to avoid any thing that may alter your way of thinking, in the holy quran it is repeated several times that god is one, even to us muslims. why? because to wash out any doubt, there is a surpreme force out there, call it allah call it god, the important this is there is a force out there.
July 3rd, 2007 at 3:05 pm
“u love taking an indirect way around a question”
Um, I directly quoted one of your questions and posted a response. Did you read my comment? I’ll answer your additional questions if you’d like.
“what is ur theory for creation, luck?” Creation of what? The universe? To be honest, God did it, though I’m not sure what God is.
“do u not value ur life?” of course I do. What kind of question is that?
“where u an accident?” Yeah, I suspect my parents didn’t plan for me since I was born while my father was still in college. Based on that, I’d have to say I’m an accident :) Okay, here’s my serious answer: If by ‘accident’ you mean ‘randomly’ then no, I see no reason to accept actual randomness in the universe.
“i mean look at you athiests the minute som1 mentions god ur scared.”
Well, I’m not exactly an atheist, though you’d probably consider me one. But none of the atheists I know are frightened by God. Have you ever met an atheist in person? Have you ever gotten to know one? My guess is that you would be scared if you didn’t believe in God. Thankfully, not everyone is like you. Is belief the only thing that keeps your fear away?
“u want to avoid any thing that may alter your way of thinking”
Look in the mirror, my friend. I have changed my way of thinking many times on my life based on learning new things. When was the last time you altered your way of thinking?
“in the holy quran it is repeated several times that god is one, even to us muslims. why? because to wash out any doubt, there is a surpreme force out there, call it allah call it god, the important this is there is a force out there.”
Why is it that Muslims seem to think that repeating something enough times makes it true? Mohammed, could you shed some light on this? I don’t care how many times something is written in the Qur’an. Repetition does not equal truth.
July 3rd, 2007 at 3:46 pm
Sid, you evil! :)
I am afraid that your answer to “what is ur theory for creation, luck?†will confuse our friend muslim. I am “afraid” that the terms: Deist, Agnostic or even worst Deist-Agnostic are very confusing to many of our theistic friends, even though they will never admit this. :p
And to answer to question of muslim“i mean look at you athiests the minute som1 mentions god ur scared.†that is just illogical. You see atheists do not believe in god. Therefore there is nothing to be afraid. Unless you consider that you still may be afraid of something you do not believe in?
July 3rd, 2007 at 4:07 pm
bismillah al rahman al rahim
by scared i do not mean frightened, i mean u dont like it, u wish to avoid it. if something is true, and it is repeated that does not mean it is no longer true.
the reason us muslims pray five times a day and not one is because allah (swt) wants us to constantly remember him. he created us, the least we can do is obey him.
when i say way of thinking, i am refering to in terms of religion. u believe in no god, hence you have no rules to follow and thus are unguided.
the beauty of religion is that we have a guidline to follow, to tell us right from wrong etc. what do u base your morality on? ur parents i suppose, but what do they base theirs on.
if u r born into an athiesrt family then u have been nertured into thinking what u do, u will not change unless u explore evidence for both sides.
to be honest muhammed seems to be doing pretty well coping with ur questions. i mean look at u, u are putting loads of theories together in an attempt to disguise god.
when someone uses god as an explanation, athiests dont like it (thats why they r athiests), they want to disguise it thats what i mean by scared.
i mean take dan barker for example, a christian preacher for 19 or something yrs, until he was impatient and decided to forget his ideas. thats not only lazy but unthankfull.
us humans are blind in a way, if we cant see somthing as far as we know it doesnt exists. wher you there at the time of the prophets when they displaid their miracles by the order of their lord. no. so to you god does not exist.
yet the cleverer ppl, will say ‘ look just because i cant see somthing does not mean it doesnt exist’,
the quran is only 1 peice of evidence, its predictions, most thing mentioned in the quran have already taken place, so the other things are reliable, what will ahppen on the day of judgement. but then again u probably havnt read the quran, it might persuade you that there is a creator!
then obviously thisn life is just a game to u, u have fun and die, there is no value, as long as you dont get hurt ort punished in this life youll be happy. wrong.
we have morals. when we do a bad action its pleasure is always outweighied by its guilt. its pleasure may be short but its guilt is longer lasting.
it is almost the opposite for doing a good action, its pleasure is long lasting and their is no guilt.
July 3rd, 2007 at 4:30 pm
there is no god but allah, muhammed is his final messenger and ali was entitiled to the calipha after him.
shias and sunnis are brothers/sisters. we should put our differences aside.
July 3rd, 2007 at 5:17 pm
Hello muslim,
Can you tell me what “bismillah al rahman al rahim” means? You’ve written it three times now, so I am curious. Speaking of needless repetition…
“if something is true, and it is repeated that does not mean it is no longer true.”
I never seen anyone try to show something untrue by repeating it. I have, however, seen many a Muslim repeat something over and over again as if repetition makes it true. Moving on to another point about repetition…
“the beauty of religion is that we have a guidline to follow, to tell us right from wrong etc. what do u base your morality on?”
Instead of repeating my answer, I’ll just ask you to re-read my comment #177.
“u believe in no god, hence you have no rules to follow and thus are unguided.”
First of all, I think you misunderstood my last comment. I happen to believe in God, I just think that religions give God a bad name by making shit up about It. Also, since you chose not to read the link I provided when I first responded to you, I’ll copy-and-paste it here for your convenience:
“by scared i do not mean frightened, i mean u dont like it, u wish to avoid it.”
Ah, thanks for the clarification. But still, I must point out that you are incorrect. Many of the atheists who frequent this site jump at the opportunity to have a rational discussion about God, mostly focusing on questions of existence. They are active counter-examples to your false claim.
“the quran is only 1 peice of evidence, its predictions, most thing mentioned in the quran have already taken place, so the other things are reliable, what will ahppen on the day of judgement.
Christians say the exact same thing about the Bible. So how am I to tell which group is correct? My bet is on neither.
I could go on, but I’ve already written a lot for you to read. Let me know what you think.
July 3rd, 2007 at 6:32 pm
Sidfaiuw,
to answer your question about reapeating things in Quran, it appears for somebody that it repeating, but it’s not, when God repeated something in Quran you always a new peiece of information, and sometimes repeating for assurance, in alot of parts in Quran I thought it’s repeating, but whem I heard the explanation, I understood it was repeating, it was just my limited knowledge that didn’t know, and I really want to improve my skills reading the Quran.
“Christians say the exact same thing about the Bible. So how am I to tell which group is correct? My bet is on neither.”
I can give you link for video for debate for Christian pastor and Muslim scholar and the debate was between science in Bible and Quran, but the video is 4 hours, and I don’t know if you have the time to know some facts you might even know about it before, I will be happey to provide you with the links, if you want.
July 3rd, 2007 at 7:18 pm
Howdy all,
Muslim, whilst I understand the premise of your arguments I don’t think have grasped some of the major concepts behind the athiest point of view. You seem to have tried to understand it through the filter of your own beliefs. In doing this you have made some generalisations and assumptions that lead to rather specious assertions. I would like to answer some of your questions from my point of view. I do this not to change your beliefs or to undermine your religion but in the spirit of understanding. It is my hope that once we both understnad each others point of view we can learn each respect and tolerance for each others beliefs.
“what is ur theory for creation, luck?â€
I don’t personally have a theory of creation. I do not know how the universe was created. I believe that the theory of eveloution is probably on the right track to explain how life on earth gained its current form. I am not sure however that abiogenisis theory is developed or supported enough yet to be considered anywhere near fact. It may be in the ball park but we just don’t know enough about life yet to make any solid conclusions. The big bang theory is a hard one for me. I really don’t know enough about the subject to really make any judgements about its veracity. I think that creation by a divine being is theoretically possible. However I believe the creation theory to be entirely unlikely and quite probably impossible. Now that I have stated what I do and do not believe I would like to put forward some explanation of why. With our current understanding of the universe around us I simply don’t believe that we can make any firm conclusions on how we came to be. Also given the practicalities of existing I believe that at this point in time it is largely irrelivant. I understand that some people have an almost primal need to explain the purpose for existance and seek out what they believe must be true. Believeing in something however does not make it true. I think that need for a purpose would serve us better if it was used to motivate investigation in the universe around us to solve the mysteries that the universe presents us with. As for creation being about luck, I don’t think so. Given the size and complexity of the universe I think that life was enevitable rather than a fluke.
“do u not value ur life?â€
Yes I do value my life. I do not use a divine being to ascertain that value however. I use experience, empathy, reason, emotion and logic to find value in my existance. Because I believe that this life is the only life I will have it becomes extraordinarily precious to me. As do the lives of others. While I am alive I want to use my life to effect some benifit to the world. Because I don’t believe in a God I have to create that benifit myself rather than leave it up to the unknowable will of some higher power. I hope that explains in some small way how one can find value in life without having to draw upon a diety. In fact I believe it to be arguable that not believing in a diety can force one to place a highly value on life.
“where u an accident? there is purpose in this life”
No I do not believe I was an accident. The best way to explain it would be to say that I think my existance is more of a consequence of the practicalities of existance. When us humans have children someone is going to be born. somebody will created that didn’t exist before. I don’t think this is an accident (and I don’t mean by the “parents didn’t plan it” definition) more the nature of current situation. As for a purpose in life, yes I believe that I have a purpose. I do not find my purpose from a god. I define my purpose myself. I decide for myself what I think are the best actions to effect positive (at least from my perspective) change upon the world around me. I choose to make a stand against an injustice, or to develop new technologies to help the world at large. There are plenty of opportunities in the world for a person to find a purpose and make a meaningful existance out of their life.
“i mean look at you athiests the minute som1 mentions god ur scared. u want to avoid any thing that may alter your way of thinking”
To me this statement is completely fallacious. I come to websites like this to engage in discussion about other peoples beliefs and views on God (ect) so that I can better understand them and widen my knowledge and point of view. I think you would find that to be the case with alot of the athiests here. As to the second part of your statement, I continually seek out new information so that I can alter my thinking. I wish to learn more so that I can change the way I view the world. I want my view and understanding of the universe to be a reflection of what is true.
I believe you are being very hypocrytical in your statement here. You assert that athiests wish to avoid anything that may alter thier way of thinking when your posts demonstrate that you refuse to alter yours. I do not want to alter your beliefs, I just want you to understand mine as I am trying to understand yours.
“in the holy quran it is repeated several times that god is one, even to us muslims. why? because to wash out any doubt, there is a surpreme force out there, call it allah call it god, the important this is there is a force out there.”
I value my doubt. It causes me to question and requestion everything I believe. In the face of new information it allows me to change my perspective,learn new concepts and discard ones that have been proven false. If I removed my doubt I would be stuck believeing what I do now. What if what I believe now is wrong. I have taken away a tool that would have allowed me to correct my mistaken belief and move closer and closer to the truth. If I ever find something that supports the assertion that there is a surpreme force existing then I will certainly have to change my views. It would be my doubt that allowed me to do that. I do not believe that a holy text of any description is sufficent to prove it beyond a doubt no matter how many times it makes the assertion. There may (or may not) be merit in the quran. All the indicators that I have learnt at this stage suggest to me that the concept of a divine creator is (at the very least) unlikely.
“to be honest i think ur lazy, u cant accept that theer is an ultimate force out there so u try and replace it with various theories”
I would just like to point out on this one that developing thoeries to explain the way the universe works takes alot of work. Furthermore that work is far from complete. Now I will admit that I didn’t develop these theories myself. I have spent a large portion of my life learning, studying and thinking about them to decide on there merit rather than just accepting them however. I fail to see how this is lazy. I also spent alot of time studying religion to see if it had any merit. I would say that this is the opposite of lazy. Unlike many of the christians I know, I studied both sides and used all the information I had at hand to slowly build up my concept and beliefs on how the universe works. Alot of my christians friends just took what they where told by their reigous teaches as fact and refused to consider the other side. I can see how that could be considered lazy by I would doubt that to be true either. I would consider it more naive if anything.
“if there is no religion then what are you basing your actions on, infact what are u basing ur morality on”
This does seem to be a common misconception from religous types. There are many tools a person can use to devlop their morality without having to invoke any form of divine will. The other misconception is that athiests use their scientific thoeries and concepts (i.e. eveloution and survival of the fitest) as the basis of morality. This is not true. An explanation of how something may work or came about is not a datum for defining the difference between right and wrong. The only people I know of who have considered it in that light are those who use a God as the source of their morality. I don’t need god to reason out what is fair. I can use empathy and reason to understand the affect my actions will have on others. I can use my own experience to learn about the consequnces of my actions. I can talk to other people and learn different perspectives on what is right and wrong. I can use my own emotions to understand the basic nature of other people. I can feel my own pain, anger, suffering and grief and realise that I do not want to be the cause of such suffering in others. I am not going to write down how I judge every situation or how my moral code works. I think it is sufficient for you to understand some of the basic tools that can be used to develop a basis for morality and know that I have a code of morality. I would also like to add that I believe that with the world changing as fast as it is we must continue to strive to to develop or collective morality to ensure a fair and just society. I cannot see how that can be done using only the teaching of very old documents written in a time before many of the issues we now face where even dreamed of. I know that Christians and muslims believe that in the divinty of their particular god the rules aplly today as much as they did in the past. I however believe that continueing to cling to such outdated codes of morality create a system that is neither fair or just. However this is a discussion for a different time.
I hope that that will give you some idea of my view on the world and help us both to reach a higher level of tolerance and understanding of each other.
Cheers
Simon Bond
July 4th, 2007 at 4:14 am
Doubt, that is a keyword.
I am afraid of people who do not have doubts as they are willing to do anything just because they no longer question themselves and the world around them. To them their actions are justified. To question their belief is blasphemy and that leads to a vicious circle of suffering as most people are angered by angry self righteous acts.
So doubt things if not for anything else but to get a short time to think over what you are going to do and is it really right or worth it.
July 4th, 2007 at 9:22 am
To me is seems far more intellectually lazy to believe what an outdated book of allegorical poems tells me than to investigate truth myself through reading multiple sources, getting a college education, and then continuing to do research throughout my life. I can accept that there is an ultimate force — the laws of nature.
Modern religion MUST go together with science. The religions that choose not to must either die out, or attempt to rewrite science by social means (see Creationists). However, science does not need religion. The point I was making earlier is that Islamic scholars have changed their interpretation of the Qur’an to line up with modern science and then claimed that the Qur’an predicted modern science. Shoehorning a few verses of a religious text into science is intellectually dishonest.
I base my personal morality on what I feel is right and wrong. I do not blindly follow the words of religious leaders. My feeling of right and wrong does not come from god, it comes from portions of my mammal brain that have evolved due to natural selection. At some point we started down the path where animals that stick together had a better chance of surviving than those that did not. That unique selection pressure is the root of morality.
I do have rules to follow. Laws are enacted for the common good and survival of the society. I obey these laws, but not blindly. Luckily, I live in a country that has a process where if I feel a law is unjust, I can challenge it — or if I feel there needs to be a new law, I can propose it. My morality can adapt to any situation, without being forced to reinterpret an ancient, outdated book.
I would rather spend my short life improving myself, helping others, and building society, than wasting my time praying 5 times a day and meeting up to be lectured every Friday in hopes of achieving a fictional outcome.
July 4th, 2007 at 9:39 am
Mohamed,
I enjoyed the first hour or so of the video, but four hours just was too monotonous. The arguments were basically all the same.
Christian guy: In this verse of the Qur’an it says (something) which contradicts with the verse where it says (something else) and science which says (the right thing).
Muslim guy: You obviously don’t understand ancient Arabic. Because word (this) which you say means (that) actually means (something different). Not only that, it has several different meanings, and in verse 1 it means (this) and in verse 2, the same word means (that). Not only that, but verse 1 is fact, where verse 2 is just an allegory. Therefore, it’s easy to see that it doesn’t conflict with itself or science.
Repeat for 4 hours.
Yeah. Watching 4 hours of this actually just made my original opinion all that stronger. You can take any religious text, and interpret it to fit the facts of any scientific theory. Here’s how.
1. No one is still alive that speaks the language the text was written in. Even if it’s a language still in existence, language changes so rapidly that books written even 100 years ago can be hard to understand. Leverage this fact by claiming that a certain word or phrase means something different than what it seems to mean.
2. If that word is used in more than one place, make sure to point out that it can mean several things.
3. Find all verses, however trivial, that even appear to support the scientific theory. Repeat them loudly and often.
4. All verses that don’t fit the facts are parables, stories, allegories, or (if you are very brave) mistranslations.
(If anyone, for sheer entertaining value, would like to see me use the above process to show that Genesis 1 is about evolution, let me know.)
July 4th, 2007 at 1:11 pm
@andrew
excellent post. definitely sums up the quran videos very nicely. i’m impressed you lasted a whole hour through that… i gave up after 30 minutes or so. the arguments are painful for anyone who thinks for themselves.
July 4th, 2007 at 1:48 pm
Boris,
I know how hard for you to hear the truth, the guy that you made fun of, he knows 7 languages at least, so you are not even close in his knowledge, nor even education.
I will tell you why you liked the first hour, because that’s when the pastor was bashing Islam, the secong hour the Muslims guy showed the guy that what he is saying it’s just lies, and he put him questions in the bible to answer, the pastor answered one claim out of 23 scientfic claims the Muslims guy asked him about, and the pastor was answering I don’t know and he start to be evasive.
And that’s why the other 3 hours was painfull for you, you know why? it’s the truth in the last 3 hours, and truth hurts.
Good luck.
July 4th, 2007 at 4:41 pm
in the name of allah,the all merciful and the beneficent
to begin with ‘bismillah al rahman al raheem = in the name of allah the merciful and the compasionate/beneficent for your information sid….
there is a truth. and that truth must exist in the life of mankind, not just modern society otherwise the people of the past will not have access to it. allah is jsut and merciful.
the holy quran is a long lasting miracle. it is NOT justr an acient book. it is a book of wisdom and truth.
the quran has made predictions that have come true, name me any other historical as old or older than this glorious book that talks about the foetus in its mothers womb, that talks about the solar and lunar eclipse and many other scientific stuff.
we have the answer. this islam is not a theory, it is truth. and by the way those terrorists out ther dont represent islam. the may be muslims by name but what they ar edoing is no way islam. these are hypocrites who think by killing innocent people they will enter heaven, while in reality they are actually sinners who will go to hell.
and you athiests just put bunches of rubbish together in an attempt to disguise god. god exists and thats the truth, i guess it must hurt for someone to understand that what they have believing all their life is false.
and by the way just for your info, islam was no way spread by the sword. thats a lie. true islam is based on peace.
‘there is no obligation in relgion.’
most ppl r wasting their lives, there is a main target we must achieve in this life; to please allah by our good ations and refrain from sin.
allah you r merciful, protect me and guide me.
btw, i love the fairness of this debate whereas poor muhammed and i suppose 1 or two others are defending islam and the athiests are just talking rubbish or just put science together. try as hard as you want god will never be disguised.
July 4th, 2007 at 5:03 pm
“the quran has made predictions that have come true, name me any other historical as old or older than this glorious book that talks about the foetus in its mothers womb, that talks about the solar and lunar eclipse and many other scientific stuff.”
some ancient cultures that pre-date islam have had pretty advanced knowledge of astronomy.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eratosthenes
information in the quran about astronomy was known hundreds of years before it was written by a man.
July 4th, 2007 at 9:52 pm
some ancient cultures that pre-date islam have had pretty advanced knowledge of astronomy.
Big lie, some of this facts that you claim was wrong, so you want me to understand that our prophet choosed the right information out of it, and he just took the right information, and why would he mention scientfic facts in Quran, where it doesn’t make sense for his people, and he didn’t know how to read ans write.
Boris, think about it before you post any answer, because you still make me laugh.
July 4th, 2007 at 10:10 pm
The Qur’an does not talk about the fetus. The Qur’an has some poetic language which can be conveniently interpreted to mean this. Find me the words of a Muslim Leader from before the 1700’s that claims that these verses are about the fetus.
I hate when you make me repeat myself. Maybe if I put it all in bold…
EVERY book that is more poetic than prosaic can be interpreted to mean ANYTHING you want. I don’t care if the book is the the Qur’an, the Bible, the writings of Nostradamous, Moby Dick, or a collection of poems written by high-school students. If it is NOT written in clear, concise, textbook language, than it can easily be made to mean anything you want.
If god wants to predict future science, he should have his prophets write prose instead of poetry.
Here is a quote from the much-discussed Keith Moore (I added the bold):
Can you see the hole in the logic? Verses that fit with our current understanding of science are accepted as fact, while verses that do not will ONE DAY make sense? This presupposes that the Qu’ran is both infallible and actually talking about science.
Muslim scholars frequently (just listen to the 4 hours of video Mohamed assigns as homework) make this paradoxical argument: Because science is factual, verses that agree with the science prove that the Qur’an is infallible. Because the Qu’ran is infallible, verses which do not agree with science prove that science is not factual.
July 4th, 2007 at 10:37 pm
I don’t see any verses that confilict with science.
I’m sorry for giving you home work, I didn’t mean to make it as homework.
Quran is not science book, Quran is a signs book as the Muslims scholar said, he gives you signs, I’m sure these verses didn’t make sense for some people in past, but now it makes sense, you know why? because it’s directed for someone like you. Quran is for every time, it was challanginf for the Arab people because they are good poets, now is challanging for people how study science, which on the conrast, Bible in Torah can’t stand up for this challange, becuase they came for just one time.
Again sorry for making you watch the video, at least I can see now how you think, you liked the first part that the poor guy tried to bash Islam and he direct every accusations he has in his bag and even every Ethiest bag, and he didn’t even focus on his bible and what his bible saying, and then you didn’t like the part where the Muslim guy answered him and direct questions to the pastor, and that’s when the pastor’s face yale and turned yellow and he couldn’t answer one question.
And actually it’s mentioned in Quran, that when you face non-muslims by the signs in Quran, their face yale and they don’t what to say.
Thank God that he makes perfection in our religion, and made perfection in his book(Quran), thank God that he makes Quran a miracle.
July 5th, 2007 at 12:11 am
Mohamed,
Please do not assume that you know how I felt. I thought the Christian guy was an annoying idiot. I thought the Muslim guy was slightly less annoying. Neither of them made any sort of logical argument. I just have a short attention span. I don’t even like watching action movies that are longer than 90 minutes. Villainizing me will not make your argument more valid. I could take a 4-hour religious debate, but the word debate means that there will be some logic behind the presentation. This was a 4-hour long pissing match by 2 people who both believe in religion.
Neither do I. I also don’t see any verses that agree with science. I see a religious text about religion. Yet the two men in the video saw verses that conflicted or agreed with science.
I challenge you to find ANY quote by a well-respected Muslim leader from ANY time where that leader claims that ANY verse of the Qur’an does not make sense.
No religious leader would every make a claim that a verse does not make sense. They will always come up with a good-sounding interpretation, and then when new knowledge comes out, they will change their interpretation. Every religious text is so vague and poetic that you can find “signs”. Christians claim the bible is full of “signs”, Muslims claim the Qur’an is, others claim Nostradamus wrote signs.
July 5th, 2007 at 12:56 am
Sorry for assuming stuff, it just how it sounded to me, on the other hand, I gave you the credit for trying to listen to it.
What I meant that there are verses didn’t make sense to past people, that people heard things about how the human-being devolpe inside the mother womb, how could they verify that, if it was true or not, thank Gos that the science now can verify such a thing.
People believed in Muhammed in past without a doubt, and that’s why God put some facts for people to see it when there is a doubt.
Regarding arguing that everybody claims that his religion has scientfic facts, I think tha’s not right, as you saw the Christian guy couldn’t answer 22 claims from the Muslim scholar and he said I plainly “I don’t know”.
At the end I thank you at least for taking the time watching the video, at least you are civlized person, and I really enjoyed arguing with you.
July 5th, 2007 at 12:46 pm
yo ppl,
looks like the muslims r winnin this debate,
the otha ppl r just makin excuses thats all
July 5th, 2007 at 12:58 pm
LOL, thanks for that piece of insight, some guy, but you’ve already posted under the name ‘muslim’ (and shia muslim). You have contributed to the debate and are thus not capable of offering an unbiased evaluation of the debate.
Not that you are really reading all of what I wrote. You responded to very few of the questions I put to you.
And by the way, what would Allah have to say about your attempt at deceit?
July 5th, 2007 at 3:06 pm
well done, but i had no intention whatsoever to deceit, i can asure u.
ill be honest, i wrote under the three different names to strenghen our side of the debate.
this debate is good because it is impossible to use physical violence lol.
any way, i hope it can be made clear that there is a starting point, call it whatewver, but to us muslims it is allah (swt).
sorry for any inconvienience i amy have caused, how do find out ANY WAY SID LOL?
July 5th, 2007 at 3:24 pm
sid found out by a miracle of god, how else? he also could have found out by looking at the IP logs, but a miracle is much more likely. muslim, what you did IS deceit. as you said, you tried to strengthen your side of the debate through less than honest means. i am not exactly surprised, i must say.
July 5th, 2007 at 7:02 pm
Boris,
For me the whole issue in not about winning debate, I’m not going to take the award fo winning the debate, it’s more to show no matter how you attack or misinform people about Islam because they don’t know, I’m here to figure out the truth and answer you back.
Truth = Quran.
July 5th, 2007 at 8:17 pm
“Truth = Quran”
ok, mohamed. i do get that you believe that. give me top 3 reasons (in your opinion) why quran indeed is the truth. if you can, i would like to avoid circular ones like “quran is truth because quran says so”.
July 5th, 2007 at 9:19 pm
Boris,
I will tell you something, and I’m going tell you the truth about why I believe it’s the truth.
When I was young my dad used to watch some guy called Elsheikh Elsha3rawy, at this time I was like 11 years old, I wasn’t really into Islam, and this guy was explaining Quran, I red Quran and I memorized Quran, but it didn’t make any affect in me, when I listened to this guy and they way he explained the Quran, it was different for me, he interpret it in way nobody does before, and it really makes sense to me, by the way nobody can explain the Quran, because new meanings show every time, and that’s why the Sheikh Elsha3arawy said I can’t expalin it.
This guy shows why God choosed certain words, and he was say that the people attack Islam should choosen this word instead of this word, he asnwer why god choose this word, it was really amzing how perfect this book is.
It took this guy almost 30 years to interpret the Quran, and he did it and he died( God mercy him), since then I was intersted and I knew there is no way this Book is from human being, add to that this guy wasn’t like the other sheikhs that shout and raise his voice to prove his point, on the contrary he was really calm and easy to listen to.
2- Quran didn’t change since its written, and that’s was God promise.
3- God challanged people that they will not be able to get one Ayah like what’s in Quran, and nobody was up to the challange yet, you can see people tried on the internt, but when you look at it, it’s BS, if you change one word in what they wrote, you already came up with better meaning, and some people think that Quran about rhyme, which is stupid, alot of verse in Quran has no Rhyme and yet it still sound good to your ears.
I hope that answered your question, I know you will come up with a new questions, but it’s ok.
July 6th, 2007 at 12:47 pm
bismillah al rahman al-rahim,
it is true, the truth will win,
atm mohammed and me (mostly mohammed), seem to hav the upper hand.
July 6th, 2007 at 7:12 pm
Hey Mohamed,
So you believe the Qur’an because 1, you found someone who interpreted the verses to your satisfaction, 2, it didn’t change, and 3, something about ‘Ayah’ that I don’t understand.
I think the point Andrew has been trying to make is that there are so many ways to interpret the Qur’an that eventually anyone can find an interpretation that suites them. What are we to do when interpretations contradict one another? If I’m not mistaken, people are killing each other over different interpretations. So the question becomes, why are you certain that your interpretation is the correct one?
Just because a culture is good at carefully copying a book doesn’t make the book true. If you are relying on the claim that “Allah said it would not change”, then you are using circular reasoning since he ’said’ that in the Qur’an.
Please explain reason 3 to me; I truly don’t understand.
Thanks
July 6th, 2007 at 8:01 pm
ayah seems to mean sign or miracle. so let’s substitute
“3- God challanged people that they will not be able to get one SIGN/MIRACLE like what’s in Quran, and nobody was up to the challange yet, you can see people tried on the internt, but when you look at it, it’s BS, if you change one word in what they wrote, you already came up with better meaning, and some people think that Quran about rhyme, which is stupid, alot of verse in Quran has no Rhyme and yet it still sound good to your ears.”
i still can’t really make sense of it.
mohamed, you did answer the question. but i do have to say that between a childhood story, a dubious (and circular claim) about consistency, and a third reason i honestly can’t understand, it’s really not very convincing.
July 6th, 2007 at 11:39 pm
Sid,
He didn’t explain it to my satisfaction, I was young and when I read Quran, I can’t get the meaning out of it, and I was reading the Quran as a story, but when I heard him interpreting the Quran, that was really different experience, I don’t know how to explain it, he analyse every word and why it came here, and what if he God choosed another word.
God left the Bible and Torah for people to protect, but people changed them to what serve their interest, not what God told them, so God promised that he is going to keep the Quran from any body to change a wrod or even a letter in Quran, and that what is happening right now, 1400 years and Quran is the same, one copy not 700000 bible.
Ayah is like Boris said exactly, but I will make it closer in meaning to you, it means verse too.
July 7th, 2007 at 8:50 am
Hello Mohamed,
“he analyse every word and why it came here, and what if he God choosed another word.”
Really it’s the same difference. Why are you certain that his analysis/interpretation is correct? Seriously, this guy presumes to know exactly why God choose each word of the Qur’an. How is it that he knows God’s mind? You are simply believing based on authority.
Also, why would God not write the Qur’an so that anybody, including non-Arabic speakers, including your 11-year-old-self, could understand exactly what He meant? He is all powerful, after all. Claiming that the Qur’an must remain in Arabic to be understood correctly smacks of cultural arrogance to me (not that the US lacks any arrogance, but that is a different topic).
“God left the Bible and Torah for people to protect, but people changed them to what serve their interest, not what God told them, so God promised that he is going to keep the Quran from any body to change a wrod or even a letter in Quran”
I don’t care that other cultures copy books imperfectly (I agree, by the way, that those books were changed for personal agendas). Anal retentive copying doesn’t imply truth. And where does God promise that he is going to keep the Qur’an pure? In the Qur’an? That would be circular reasoning.
I’m sorry to say that I still don’t quite understand your third reason. No miracles like those described in the Qur’an have been demonstrated elsewhere? Is that right? I haven’t seen it demonstrated that any miracles described in the Qur’an did occur.
In short, while these may be good enough reasons for you to believe, they are extremely far from convincing me. But, as I’ve said before, I know very little about the Qur’an. I want to learn more, but would prefer a non-bias source. That may be very difficult to find. Does the community have any suggestions?
July 7th, 2007 at 9:51 am
Sid,
Prophry Muhammed was raised in the Arabic area, and they were really good at saying poetry, and they were the best to do so, and they have a lot of contest to see who the best person to use the language to say poems, and it was source of pride, Quran came in Arabic for those people to challange them, so God came with lnaguage make them think. The know Muhammed all their life, they know that he was a poet, so where did he come with these words.
Regarding my third point, Ayah is verse of Quran(that’s what I meant), God challange for the human being, to write one verse of Quran like the Quran, nobody could till now, there were a lot of tries but nobody could.
God said he will protect Quran from changing, did you hear that Quran changed from 1400 years, so he is right that it’s from him, because when God protect Quran, nobody will be able to change it, and that’s why at one point, all the people who memorize Quran will die, and the Quran will life to the sky(prophcy), so God keeps it from changing, and that will be one the big signs of the judgment day.
How could I know if this guy was saying the truth, the guy said in alot of times, that his interpration is not expalaining, because you can’t explain Quran, if somebody would explain Quran that would be prophet Muhammed, but he didn’t, because Quran for all ages, unlike other books as bible and Torah.
Again, I’m not here to convince somebody, I’m here to make you think about it, you are the one who can do the search and read, and know better. I’m not going to change somebody’s mind, as you see there are a lot of people hates Muslims, and it’s ok, I understand that, there a lot fo Muslims nobody hear about, it’s all about the extremist, that’s all what they hear.
I hope you make sure you pick the right source of reading about Quran, I wish I could help you with that, but I would rather you to choose your own source.
July 7th, 2007 at 10:20 am
Sid,
Correction, I meant that all their life knew Muhammed, and he never said a poets, sorry I mad a lot of mistakes.
July 7th, 2007 at 12:22 pm
Mohammed, did you read Quran in the Classical Arabic or in Egyptian Arabic?
If you do not know Classical Arabic, then how are we able to trust anything you say as you cannot truly understand what Quran says?
Also, if “… because new meanings show every time…” how one can trust anyone who is fluent in Classical Arabic in the first place?
July 7th, 2007 at 1:56 pm
Quran in one Arabic, it doesn’t change to a differnet accent, we study classic Arabic for 12 years, so we understand classic Arabic, but here is the difference, this guy took two hours to explain “thank God”, he explained it from every aspect, the other thing you have to notice that there are a lot of Sheiks liten to him too, so if he makes one mistake, believe me you will find every body talking about it in ME.
The other thing I would like to mention, I heard a lot of sheikhs try to intrpret Quran, and it was like what the mircale in what they saying, but when this guy explained it, it was something different, you start to realease why the Quran is mircale.
July 7th, 2007 at 5:41 pm
Thanks Mohamed,
When I do start learning about the Qur’an, I hope I can chat with you about it. I’m interested in a scholarly approach to the book but I’d also like the thoughts of a believer, especially a reasonable one like yourself.
July 8th, 2007 at 4:07 am
Any time Sid.
July 9th, 2007 at 3:11 pm
in the name of allah the compasionate, the merciful
to begin with i would like to say that this debate is very interesting and well done mohammed for coping the whole way, mashala may allah bless you…
mohammed i hope you wouldnt mind if i ask you a few questions….
1) as you know the ‘aqeedah’ of the sunnis and shiasn slighlty differs, we have the same basic beliefs but there are slight differeneces, with all due respect, what are the sunni reasons for ubu bakr to have the calipha?
2) why do the sunnis regard ali as the fourth caliph and consider the event of ghadir khum (even though they accept it took place) voisd, even with the prophet making it clear?
3) why are there terrorists out there who hate us shias and say we are kufar, is that just?
my dear brother mohammed, you seem to be a great person who is out there defending islam (hopefully in a non violent way), inshala you are a true mu’min and may allah bless you.
July 9th, 2007 at 6:29 pm
Muslim,
I never heard about Shia till I came here to USA, when I was in Egypt I didn’t even hear about Shia or Sunnis, I didn’t know that I’m labeled as Sunni.
The fuuny thing that I used to wrok in Hotel, and I had some Iraqi friends and I knew that they are Shiaa and I didn’t know what the difference at this time, and accidently I was talking about how good Abu Baker is and Omar Bin Elkhatab and even Ali, but I didn’t know that Shii don’t like The prophet companions, so every time I think about it, I feel bad, they might think that I intentionly doing it, but honestly I didn’t.
I discussed the topic before, and as you see even when I talk with non-muslim, I tend to use logic more than Quran, and the same here you have to look at the logic, as you know that it’s destined who is going to be the king or the Claip or the president, and you can go back to the Quran in that, so the fact that Gos destinted Abu baker and the other to be before Ali was detinted, and there are a lot of evidence that it was the right sequence to happen, and Ali as you know was so brave, and you should know better than me, if you read about Ali which I’m sure you did, he is the one of the most admirable companinon even for Sunni, and as you know without Ali as the other companion, there wouldn’t be religion called Islam, so we don’t hate Ali, on the contrary we like him, and you can listen about Ali story from Sunni prospective from “Amr Khaled” and I can give you the link for his story .
I don’t consider Shii is Kafer, I can’t claim any thing like that, you said La Allah Alla Allah and Muhammed Rasul Allah, so God will judge you for what you believe not me.
I’m nothing to judge anybody.
For why the terrorist attack Shiia, you have to ask them, not me I really don’t know why is it happening, it might be for the power or the money(oil), or may be feeling that Shii was one of the reasons that USA in Iraq, that’s all I could think about the issue, you might have different thought.
July 10th, 2007 at 9:49 am
may allah bless u brother…
i just wanted to see your point of veiw thats all, were all brothers in faith and society and must respect each other,
about the hating of the companions, thats wrong we consider them great companions of the prophet, but after they userped ali\’s right thats the point where they were seen as hypocrites if u understand what im sayin bro…
any wayz thanks for your help inshala you will be successfull bro…
July 10th, 2007 at 9:50 am
may allah bless u brother…
i just wanted to see your point of veiw thats all, were all brothers in faith and society and must respect each other,
about the hating of the companions, thats wrong we consider them great companions of the prophet, but after they userped ali\’s right thats the point where they were seen as hypocrites if u understand what im sayin bro…
any wayz thanks for your help inshala you will be successfull brother…
July 10th, 2007 at 9:51 am
may allah bless u brother…
i just wanted to see your point of veiw thats all, were all brothers in faith and society and must respect each other,
about the hating of the companions, thats wrong we consider them great companions of the prophet, but after they userped ali\’s right thats the point where they were seen as hypocrites if u understand what im sayin bro…
any ways thanks for your help inshala you will be successfull brother
July 10th, 2007 at 1:12 pm
im sorry for posting that 3 times, it was an accident lol
July 10th, 2007 at 4:14 pm
yo sid, are u the guy in charge of this website?
July 10th, 2007 at 4:28 pm
Nope, sorry.
July 10th, 2007 at 5:42 pm
If things continue this way, sid, you may yet have to be. Gas, where is you?
July 28th, 2007 at 10:10 pm
Nope,sorry
July 30th, 2007 at 5:30 am
[...] 3 Things I do not understand: Quantum physics, Chinese script, Ashura [...]
October 2nd, 2007 at 7:50 pm
why is this site called “religiousfreaks”. it is wrong. you people must be so uneducated really, can you not see the beauty of this. its a practice done by shia muslims all over the world, even me, my father and mother, brothers sisters cousins etc etc, so if my family are freaks, then what does that make you?….. Think of it, These people are willing to DIE for something they believe in so strongly..How is that not beautiful…Even the children
Regards Ayesha
October 11th, 2007 at 4:50 am
beauty of this??!!? soryy cant see the beauty anywhere… all i can see is blood… loads and loads of blood… and bleeding kids…. oh my days!!!! if u knew islam really,, READ QURAN if u call urself a muslim!!! Allah SWT said HIMSELF!!! do not tempt to hurt urself as this body does not belong to you!!! it is a property of our God that has been lended to you for this life time so that you could prove urself worthy of the beauty of Janna (paradise)!!! and when u die! thats when Allah SWT will take the body back!!!! how can u say this is beautiful? how can u call this ISLAM??? when it goes against not only the morality of human nature but also THE ISLAM!!!!???? i dnot have anything against other beliefs and faiths… u can believe in COWS for all i care….. but THIS???? THIS IS NOT ISLAM!! i cant seem to understand where you got this from!?!?!? do u think that even ALI (May PEace and blessing be uppon him)would accept something like that??!?!?!!? this is inhuman.. hurting urselves like this/?? even his sons H & H wouldnt accept this… who told ut his is what they really wanted??? THEY were muslims!!!!! THEY would never allow this!!! URGHH>>>….
October 12th, 2007 at 9:12 am
Hi to all
my name is mehdi.im from IRAN.and im a SHIA.i saw this pictures about shia in this site.im not refuse it.but i wana to you know it is not the SHIA culture.but you know that the stupid people are in all over the world.and if you know ayat ollah khamenayi (the irans emam).he has said that it is something wronge.and no one shouldnt do this.and in iran who do that arests by police.shia is some thing diffrent but the goverments that thay dont like to the other nation know about islam and shia trys to sho this stupid peoples. so i give you my invation to come to iran in next MOHARAM.we have some wonderful programes here.
October 12th, 2007 at 2:20 pm
In Iraq, where do Shia go to mourn Ashura? In 2004 wasn’t there some unfortunate problems such as bombings and drownings from a stampede across a bridge? From what I have read, this is a day that Saddam did not allow the Shia to mourn/celebrate/act out their religious rites. In 2008, how will Iraqi Shia go about this important day in their religion?
October 12th, 2007 at 5:06 pm
ok, i am a muslim, but, really, what the hell!!!!
November 15th, 2007 at 10:29 am
shiaa krriiiiiizzzzzyyyyyyy
December 26th, 2007 at 2:07 pm
in the name of allah, the merciful, the compasionate
there is no need for this to take place, especially since its making the shias look bad and i honestly doubt this is the message hussain (as) wanted to put across. hussain’s sacrifice was meant to preserve the ‘true’ islam at the time of muhammed (pbuh) before people became hypocrites and tried to chNGE THE RELIGION EG. YAZID, MUAWIA ETC…
surely allah is the best of judges…
December 26th, 2007 at 5:09 pm
muslim, a lot of stupid people do a lot of stupid things in the name of religion, deal with it dumbass.
December 26th, 2007 at 7:26 pm
Ayesha:
“Think of it, These people are willing to DIE for something they believe in so strongly..How is that not beautiful…Even the children”
I want to ask you. In your mind how old is a child before it is old enough to decide whether it want to die for Islam or not?
What happens if a child says “I do not want to die for Islam” or “I do not want to be a muslim” or “MOM NO PLEASE DONT HURT ME MOOM!”?
“if my family are freaks, then what does that make you?…..”
Normal and caring.
I have to tell you Ayesha you and your family deserves prison for hurting defenceless children. Shame on you.
Corso
January 1st, 2008 at 4:54 pm
Hi!
I am a Sheii person my religion taught me to respect all religions and I would like to make something clear to all of you people involved in this conversation that some of you called us and our believes “STUPID” so what do you think about the people who worship the cows or the ones who worship mice and eat it’s pooop or the people who nail them selves to crosses. I’m not saying they are stupid. I’m saying why is it you, only think we are the stupid ones. So my whole point of writing this is that, I’m proud to be a sheii… THANK YOU !!
January 1st, 2008 at 6:11 pm
Hellow again
I’m writing this to you Corso :
I think that no one can live without a believe everyone is raised up as their parents believes. And from all around the world i can see people teaching thier children to do certain things in religion. And the most common thing is parents taking thier child to church every Sunday even if they don’t want to. If your parents were christian they would never teach you jewish or islam. so i just would like you to know that without your parents you wouldn’t be talking about whose believe is write or wrong.Your parents didn’t wait for you to turn 18 to give their believe “just lika car lisence” so think about what you write before writing it! By the way you’re invited to our cerimony in Muharam !!!
January 2nd, 2008 at 6:02 am
how discusting, those poor children. what has this world come to? God and Allah is angry at all of you disrespectful, evil muslims. Allah doesnt teach this and if he does then HE is the devil. It is dangerous when untaught people are following an evil religion. Please change your evil deeds now or else God will not forgive.
January 2nd, 2008 at 6:10 am
I respect every religion that consists of only purity and no evil whatsoever, I do not respect this.
January 2nd, 2008 at 9:20 am
So do I! That’s why I respect almost no religions at all.
January 2nd, 2008 at 10:55 am
Demanding respect of a concept like religion is very annoying to me as generally the people demanding respect of their religion have no respect of other concepts just because of their religion.
To me, demanding respect of religion is on the same group where demands for respect of nazism, fascism, apartheid etc. reside.
Why would people have to respect concepts which seldom are able to incite respect on their own and rely on the adherents fanaticism and evangelizing on its expansion?
I can respect people but demanding respect to a concept erodes that respect I had prior such demands.
Some concepts like liberty, equality and such that I can respect them even if no one would utter a word in their defense.
January 2nd, 2008 at 4:14 pm
Muslim Sheii Person:
“so think about what you write before writing it! By the way you’re invited to our cerimony in Muharam !!!â€
What is it I missed thinking about? Otherwise I aggree with your post except of course the part where you say no one can live without a belief.
Thanks for the invitation though. Shall I bring my own beer?
January 2nd, 2008 at 4:25 pm
Muslim Sheii Person:
“I would like to make something clear to all of you people involved in this conversation that some of you called us and our believes “STUPID†so what do you think about the people who worship the cows or the ones who worship mice and eat it’s pooop or the people who nail them selves to crosses.â€
You completely missed the point. None of these examples you mentioned do any harm to other people or animals except themself - unlike the smiling mother on this page who wields a large knife next to her baby who bleed from cuts to the head.
It’s really a question of ethics here – not intelligense.
January 8th, 2008 at 3:44 pm
I am shia and i believe in my religion.
Those pictures above are very disturbing, shias around my society, and shias i know would never do this- but these people have a purpose.
idk, however In our religion, we should never hurt ourselfs to death. The people in the pictures probably want to feel the pain, and put themselves in imam Husayn’s shoes. But this isn’t a must…people who actually know the story of ashura might feel the same way.
oh well………my religion is NOT stupid! and i think you SHOULD recpect EVERY religion thats followers are submited to God!
January 8th, 2008 at 4:08 pm
Hello shia girl,
Stupid? no. Irrational? in many ways, yes. Why should I respect irrational and unfounded beliefs? I’ve yet to hear a good reason. Perhaps you’ll be the one to finally provide one.
January 8th, 2008 at 6:14 pm
Hello Shia girl, can i ask you something?
January 9th, 2008 at 4:04 pm
sidfaiu, honestly, i dont understand what you want me to prove….you want me to explain why you should respect “my” religion? I think you should go and do some real research (and not just online, go find a real book about islam-shia.)
January 9th, 2008 at 4:06 pm
hyrocket: “Hello Shia girl, can i ask you something?”
what do you want to ask???
January 9th, 2008 at 4:20 pm
The question has nothing to do with research, or with what particular religion you follow.
The question was why we should respect you beliefs, and the ‘rights’ you asume to claim from them, even though your beliefs have no basis at all.
I respect your religion in the same way you respect Pastafarians and believers in the Invisible Pink Unicorn, which is to say, not at all.
Probably even less, because the churches of the FSM and IPU don’t force their beliefs on anyone and have never hurt anyone from the basis of their religion.
So, the question again:
Why should we respect your religion?
January 9th, 2008 at 6:44 pm
shia girl, what is the heart of the issue here?
“flagellating themselves with chains or cutting their foreheads until blood streams from their bodies”.
Do you know the power of the blood in Christ Jesus? He can give you life and through him you are saved.
think about it Shia.
January 9th, 2008 at 6:47 pm
“think about it Shia.”
If all religious people did that we wouldn’t need sites like this.
January 9th, 2008 at 6:53 pm
i dont know…you guys are too “debative”.
Our beliefs have a basis.
Some shias go overboard just like in the pictures above. I for one am against the activities in the pictures, and i am shia. I say this because shias dont have to do this, and even so, shouldnt do this. Some shia parties just do. Take Christianity for example. Some chritian parties re-enact the crusifying of Jesus by having themselves nailed to a cross. This is painful aswell as the shias in the above pictures. I HAVE NO FURTHER COMMENTS.
As for the “respect” thing, i can’t make you respect something you set your mind against. I just think respect is the human thing to do, and despite your negative/positive feelings, one should always respect others.
and As for the “invisible pink unicorn” written by Alcari, that was very funny, hahaha. (sarcastically speaking!)
January 9th, 2008 at 6:55 pm
BY THE WAY, SHIA GIRL IS BIBA.
January 9th, 2008 at 6:57 pm
“Our beliefs have a basis”
The problem is your beliefs have no basis in facts or reality, your basis is from a crappy book of sketchy origins.
January 9th, 2008 at 6:58 pm
“Do you know the power of the blood in Christ Jesus? He can give you life and through him you are saved.”
hyrocket….WHAT IS THAT SUPPOSED TO MEAN?????
January 9th, 2008 at 6:59 pm
“crappy book of sketchy origins.”
irishthunder….what book are you talking about?
January 9th, 2008 at 7:00 pm
don’t worry about it biba, i think he’s just trying to turn you into a vampire, or a cannibal, i always mix those up.
January 9th, 2008 at 7:02 pm
“crappy book of sketchy origins.”
irishthunder…is that an opinion? Back yourself up!
January 9th, 2008 at 7:07 pm
biba, do you know who wrote the Quran? when it was written? But it is my opinion about it being crappy, i read it, along with the bible, and both are horribly written.
January 9th, 2008 at 7:19 pm
Yes, irishthunder, I do know who’s words are in the Quran, they are Allah(swt)-Gods words. They were sent down to Prophit Mohamad(pba)by angel Gabrael. And the Quran has been the same (not a word or letter has changed) since a long time ago. The Quran is the most precise Holy book. How can you read the Quran and say it is crappy knowing that this is the real “thing”…its NOT crappy!, and
unlike the bible, there are like a milion different versions!
January 9th, 2008 at 7:20 pm
correction, the bible has so maney different versions!
January 9th, 2008 at 7:27 pm
So you think that there is ABSOLUTELY no chance that someone besides your god wrote it? And there is no way for you to know that it hasn’t been altered in different ways throughout the centuries. HOW exactly is it the “most precise” holy book out there?
And let us not forget that there are MANY other gods out there, have you heard the word of mighty Thor? what about all-powerful Ra?
January 9th, 2008 at 8:49 pm
Hi
I beleive there is NO god but Allah. There is only ONE God!
And I am 100% sure that the Quran has NOT been changed through the centuries. It is the “most precise” because of that.
How can I prove that the Quran has not been changed… well i trust the Islamic scientists who live for religion, and know a whole lot more than me and you.
From my point of view, (if you can read and fully understand the Holy Quran,) you will see how beautiful Quran is, and the Quran unravles the beauty/mystery of life, and the here-after.
people just have to believe.(and i understand some are ignorant and dont)
January 9th, 2008 at 9:05 pm
The best thing about living a life in reality and fact is that there is absolutely no need to have faith in what any religion tells you.
January 10th, 2008 at 12:58 am
Biba, what does biba mean? or is it your name? you write good english, are you a muslim and speak muslim?
January 10th, 2008 at 3:23 pm
Irishthunder:”The best thing about living a life in reality and fact is that there is absolutely no need to have faith in what any religion tells you.”
I disagree with you. I believe the best thing about living life is that we have faith.
If you have no faith or belief, then what is the point of life?
Did you ever think that there must be a reason for us living on earth?
Life has a purpose, and having Faith falls with that purpose.
January 10th, 2008 at 3:24 pm
Hello,
hyrocket:”you write good english”
…Thank you
Biba is my nickname, my friends call me Biba.
I am a Muslim, and I speak two languages (English and Arabic.)
January 10th, 2008 at 4:12 pm
“Did you ever think that there must be a reason for us living on earth?”
The sad thing is a lot of people think that way. Why do you feel the need for a higher power to tell you what to do? Is it possible that our species may have the same purpose as all the other species on this planet(along with the rest of the universe)? We are here to survive, to live, and to do whatever we can to make our society and our species better than the way you found it.
January 10th, 2008 at 4:29 pm
“We are here to survive, to live, and to do whatever we can to make our society and our species better than the way you found it.”
And after that….then what? Why should we make life better than the way we found it?…because life HAS a purpose.
Correct me if I am wrong,
do you believe life has NO purpose (because YOU sure sound like that)
January 10th, 2008 at 5:17 pm
Why does there need to be something after? Why by afraid of death?
“Why should we make life better than the way we found it?”
You misread, I said make society and our species better. I honestly can’t think of how thats a bad thing.
“do you believe life has NO purpose”
I definitely just explained the purpose of life. Let me simplify it even more for you, the purpose of life is to continue life. Just because im not falling on my knees and praising one of the THOUSANDS of gods out there doesn’t mean im a nihilist.
January 10th, 2008 at 5:54 pm
irishthunder:
“Why does there need to be something after?”
Because, every before has an after.
“make society and our species better.I honestly can’t think of how thats a bad thing.”
Don’t get me wrong, that isn’t a bad thing, that is what we should do, but the concept of your purpose is wrong.
“purpose of life is to continue life”, so you think living is just an everlasting chain of continuing life? Nothing else?
WELL, I GUESS YOU HAVE A PURPOSE AND I HAVE A PURPOSE… were going on paralell roads here, and we will never reach at an intersection…I sence your stuburn and you will never take someone elses word. (my opinion)
“one of the THOUSANDS of gods out there” How can I explain this to you, THERE IS ONLY ONE GOD! Are you thinking about ancient mythology, because that word comes from the root word MYTH. Only one God out here!
irishthunder, what do you believe in? are you athiest or something? if yes, then what are you doing on this website, sounds to me like you are unsure of yourself.
January 10th, 2008 at 6:11 pm
“Because, every before has an after.”
Don’t forget, every beginning must have an end.
“but the concept of your purpose is wrong.”
If my concept is wrong what makes yours right?
“so you think living is just an everlasting chain of continuing life? Nothing else?”
Well not my life or yours, but the existence of mankind in general.
“Are you thinking about ancient mythology, because that word comes from the root word MYTH. Only one God out here!”
It wasn’t called mythology back when those religions were in practice. You can be sure that islam, christianity, and all the current religions will fall under that category.
“irishthunder, what do you believe in? are you athiest or something? if yes, then what are you doing on this website, sounds to me like you are unsure of yourself.”
You should look around this site a little more, try clicking the “About” link up top. Most everyone here doesn’t believe in yours or any god.
January 10th, 2008 at 6:32 pm
“You should look around this site a little more, try clicking the “About†link up top. Most everyone here doesn’t believe in yours or any god.”
IN THAT CASE
I dont know what in the world im doing on this website anyways…Bye, i’m going to go pray to God because I am a believer.
I feel sorry for everyone that “doesn’t believe in yours or any god.” I might pray for you guys too (jm), hopefully you’ll find yourselves. ;)
January 10th, 2008 at 7:00 pm
toodles
January 10th, 2008 at 7:08 pm
Biba, i know a path the leads to life in Jesus and faith in him alone is required to be in heaven. Biba, let me show you a plan of salvation in the blood Jesus Christ for you and your family.
January 10th, 2008 at 7:16 pm
hyrocket, if you feel yourself about to type something about how you have a path and it involves jesus in someway just stop and post something of substance. The only result of those kind of posts is eyes rolling or glazing over, We’ve all heard that shit a million times before.
January 10th, 2008 at 7:47 pm
Howdy all,
Hyrocket, still you follow the path of the evil barbarous God of the Christians. Even after you have learnt of the Sacrifice that true Gods shall make on your behalf upon the time of Ragnarök. With the truth placed before you and the lies of the Christians exposed still your heart is dead and your mind is closed. Turn back from the path you have chosen lest ye end up serving the forces of chaos. For when the time of Ragnarök comes, if you find yourself serving the false God of the Christians you will be rent from this world. Your dammned soul will be forced to wander Niflhel and sample it’s assortment of torments for all eternity.
Hyrocket my soul cries out to see you wander down the path of darkness. I cry out to you in hopes that my words may a last help you to see the evil that you serve. Forsake the flase God of the Christians and remove the viel of lies from your eyes. See the truth, the enlightenment and discover your true purpose. The happiness you seek is not the shallow illusion that you have. You will not know what true contentment really is until you accept Æsir and Vanir as God’s. Only then can you understnad the noble sacrifice they will make to ensure a better future for us all.
The blood of your Christ is tainted with all the innocent souls that have been murdered, over the course of history, in his name. As you worship him, their blood has begun to stain your hands. It has begun to sain your soul. Step back from this path of damnation I implore you. Join me in the light and accept the gifts the true God’s have given us. Rejoice in the happiness that can only be found when one accpets the true God’s into you heart. All you have to do is ask and salvation is yours.
Cheers
Simon Bond
p.s. Sorry for all the spelling mistakes
January 10th, 2008 at 8:14 pm
Simon you are funny… how many gods do you follow? Is Irish talking about me or you?
Simon, you words are so neatly put and so elegant in the ways of unlife. You see that, i said unlife because it is the word i chose to use. it is i not of God or of Jesus but what i chose to say.
Simon said, “I implore you. Join me in the light and accept the gifts the true God’s have given us. Rejoice in the happiness that can only be found when one accpets the true God’s into you heart. All you have to do is ask and salvation is yours”.
can i say that it is safe to say that you know God that i talk about but continue to deny the truth in your own heart of the fact of the truth in His words will stand for ever.
Simon, if there is followers of this god you mention they worshipers in darkness.
this is the words i chose because it is i that provkes you to maddness.
Simon, you say that Jesus is the cause of hate that is among us? it is i that has chosen these words to use.
“The blood of your Christ is tainted with all the innocent souls that have been murdered, over the course of history, in his name”.
if i say to biba that there is life it is not me to cast this hatered that you mention in death through the centuries.
If you know the scriptures and the truth in it, you will not say such lies to me.
Simon, you and i have chosen to pick up the sword and put to death the life that is Jesus.
If you have a brother or sister will they not direct your path that keeps you safe? because they love you and you are their sibling that they have been blessed?
Simon, all i can say is bite me bacause i said it and no Æsir and/or Vanir can take the truth in words that i read.
Did i not read your words you typed Simon?
January 10th, 2008 at 9:16 pm
You’re a true brick, hyrocket. In many senses.
January 10th, 2008 at 10:21 pm
Howdy all,
Hyprocket, can i say that it is safe to say that you know Gods that i talk about but continue to deny the truth in your own heart. Deny the fact of the truth that their words will stand for ever.
Cheers
Simon Bond
January 11th, 2008 at 1:42 am
Simon, check this intimate devotional by richy clark. i think you might like it? the richy sounds like sting, to me.
http://www.godsipod.com/
radiant worship
January 13th, 2008 at 5:49 pm
i am shiaa but we dont do this
we feel for imam hussain but we dont cut or selves and make our selves bleed
and also ppl think that all muslims try to do is bring everyone else to islam
i was at a lecture yesterday and thy were talking about this
he told us a story of a younge man called ali who went to a town and broke all the idels they worshipped in this big are of land but he left only 1 the biggest one
so when the idel worshipperes came back they said to ali “who broke all of these idels, was it you”
ali replied back “well im not sure go and ask the bigeest one dosnt he speak to you and protect you so go and ask him who broke the others” see we only try to open people minds not make them convert allah makes them convert we make then open their minds
also islam is the religion that brang women to the higest regards because of everybody else but now what happenes they all say we dont respect women and keep them in the lowest regard
anwaiz just wanted to have my say
so bye
if you want anymore info just email me
a.oss@hotmail.com
thanks
January 13th, 2008 at 9:20 pm
Hyrocket I want to thank you
you just made my day. I thought that everyone that oblivious must have died out allread, or didn’t know how to use the internet. Thank you for proving me wrong and providing me with a great source of entertainment. Just remember that I’m laughing at you, not with you.
With any luck, you won’t get this one either, please, remain oblivious and amusing. It seems your purpose in life is to ignorantly provide entertainment for the rest of us.
And you, my cognitally challenged internet user, deserve special kudos for this remark. It was the icing on hyrocket’s cake.
January 13th, 2008 at 10:11 pm
Alcari, i aim to please, i am curious “remain oblivious and amusing”
i find that qoute interesting.
Alcari, if you would just take the time to really understand Jesus and that everyman should love their wife and respect them… within that is the family and as a leader, just like Gasmonso, has responsibilites as a husband and a father.
Alcari, you want to impress your friends here is entertaining and i have to say that you’re a fine gentleman who knows how to use the internet.
Alcair, i praise Christ Jesus for my faith. my faith is leak and not as strong as i like it be. but maybe if you keep telling yourself “i’m laughing at you Hyrocket and keep it up” you will encourage me to give you scripture here.
So will I ever sing praises to your name,
as I perform my vows day after day.
psalm 61:8
January 13th, 2008 at 10:13 pm
hey Simon, were you able to check out that radiant worship site?
January 13th, 2008 at 10:49 pm
Ashura is not about beating and hurting yourself. What these people are doing in the above pictures is simply wrong. During this period we mourn for the tragedy of Karbala and remember Ahlul Bayt. It has nothing to do with what you make it seem like. Infact, that’s haram and shame on whoever posted those pictures. What an ignorant title, “Happy Ahura?”. You have got to be kidding me. Shame on you !!
May Allah Guide you to the Right Path.
January 14th, 2008 at 4:11 am
Says who? What basis do you have to say that they are doing it wrong?
Wooohooo, instant gratification.
Three cheers for Pavlov.
January 14th, 2008 at 1:40 pm
Zeinab speaking about parents cutting their children with knives so they bleed:
“What these people are doing in the above pictures is simply wrong.”
Zeinab speaking about people who posts pictures of bleeding children:
“..and shame on whoever posted those pictures. What an ignorant title, “Happy Ahura?â€. You have got to be kidding me. Shame on you !!
May Allah Guide you to the Right Path.”
..and they say atheists are without morale.
January 15th, 2008 at 12:30 pm
Islam is ridiculous, what a bunch of ass wipes. It’s sad that so many of these creatures are so easily led into this life of unconditional hatred and obscene atrocities on mankind. It would be a much brighter world without the Middle East altogether. These people are twisted and misled and will never learn to think of their own free will and function as a compassionate, civilized society. After all, we’re not living in the middle ages.
Cahoots to Religiousfreaks.com for shedding some light on the practices of these basket cases and their brood.
January 15th, 2008 at 4:35 pm
Hey Mikel,
you said: “what a bunch of ass wipes”…”It would be a much brighter world without the Middle East altogether.”
I Just wanted to say that YOU INFACT are an ASS, and it would be a much brighter world without people like you who talk badley about others, and you dont even know anything about them.
You should refer to this quote:
“Before you criticize people, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way, when you criticize them, you’re a mile away. And you have their shoes.” -JK Lambert
hope you find some common sense!
January 18th, 2008 at 2:51 pm
this people made the islam word go wrong so people can say these muslim people are mad not all muslim are shia we are different i blive there is only one god allah and mohamed is his masenger not like these people making theemselve bleed really is horrible
January 18th, 2008 at 4:05 pm
im a muslim, a shiite. i should say that what u see in these pictures is absolutely against islam n shiite. what see is totally inane cause our religion makes us take care of bodies. anyway there s another thing i wanted 2 say; i just wonder how stupid one could be to choose a title like this “happy ahura”. the person must have dung in his/her head to be this stupid. [excuse my language]
January 19th, 2008 at 8:25 am
i am muslam and i am shiia i think wat those people are doing is wrong its very bad but that not wat islam has said
January 19th, 2008 at 6:29 pm
okay, who, in their friggin mind, would think that these pics are true??? do you really think there are kids in this world who do that??? look, i am a muslim…but not shia…but i still know alot about Ashura. i think that these pics are photoshopped or something and are fake. everyone is right: islam is not like this..islam is a very clean religion. not screwed up as they all try to make it. get your minds straight.
January 20th, 2008 at 6:08 pm
AHAHAHAHA
You’re a beautifull example of the brainwashing power and indoctrination of religion. You blindly accept whatever your religion tells you (or in this case, what you want to believe), without bothering to check anything. You believe anything, even if it has no bearing on reality.
It is you who has his eyes closed to the world. If you need more then these two pictures, a simple google search is enough.
http://images.google.com/images?q=ashura+blood
January 21st, 2008 at 4:32 pm
what was presented, is a false versipn of Islam. Islam is the religion of peace and healthy.Well this misunderstanding isnot only in Islam,sometimes when a category is so simple, people make it sophisticated. Perhaps Islam and understanding it is alike that.
January 22nd, 2008 at 9:03 am
I’m iranian and shia(proud) ,It’s the first time that I see these scenes and I should say whatever those people are doing is against Islam
January 22nd, 2008 at 5:19 pm
Got to be honest… i dont think that is real blood. Any who,
Hey Alcari, i just wanted to say- if you were generally speaking, then i want to get your “facts” straight.
people who follow/beleive in their religion are not “brainwashed” you should go try to get real facts from real people about their religion, and not believe things on the internet. Haters create bad things, so you never know whats real or not.
GOOGLE…come on! LOL
To sum it up, you are the brainwashed one sweety,,,you are.
January 22nd, 2008 at 5:48 pm
“people who follow/beleive in their religion are not “brainwashed†you should go try to get real facts from real people about their religion”
THATS the fact he got wrong?
Brainwashing: consists of any effort aimed at instilling certain attitudes and beliefs in a person
So when you went to your mosque or temple, what was that guy upfront doing? Also, unless you converted, you were probably getting bombarded 24/7 by your family.
January 23rd, 2008 at 6:55 am
Riight, so you’re saying the thousands of pictures of people injuring themselves are all an elaborate conspiracy to discredit muslims? Tinfoil hat much?
also:
brainwashing: (according to encyclopedia brittanica)
Systematic effort to destroy an individual’s former loyalties and beliefs and to substitute loyalty to a new ideology or power.
Well, that certainly sounds like what religions worldwide do. And it wouldn’t be so bad, if your religion of choice wasn’t so horribly wrong, both scientifically and for society as a whole.
January 23rd, 2008 at 3:41 pm
irishthunder said
“unless you converted, you were probably getting bombarded 24/7 by your family.”
actually, i didn’t convert, and i am not bombarded by my family.
Alcari said “And it wouldn’t be so bad, if your religion of choice wasn’t so horribly wrong, both scientifically and for society as a whole.”
I just wanted to let you know that your information does not influence me one bit, and what ever your opinions are about other beliefs, (let us just say) I clearly think the opposite. think what you want to think
by the definitions of brainwash, it doesn’t nessesarily have to do with religios beliefs.
what makes YOU not “brainwashed”? based on its definition, everyone is brainwashed one way or another (doesn’t have to be religion)
example: i believe my teacher is smart, and i like her teaching styles.
AM I BEING BRAINWASHED BECAUSE I BELIEVE IN WHAT SHE IS TEACHING?
January 23rd, 2008 at 5:01 pm
catholics and other Christians also use flaggelation. Cathloics also use scapulars and sell them in mainstream catholic magazines. Christians aslo crawl on bloody knees to shrines–its all screwed up not just islam , and I by the way am a pagan
January 23rd, 2008 at 8:41 pm
No, I allready know information doesn’t influence you, otherwise you’d see the inconcistencies, both with empirical data and internally, in your religion.
Agreed on that, just don’t force your religion on anyone, and allow them to form the own opinion, objectively and without coercement. Once everyone does that, I’m a happy man.
@ Jane Calm
Yes, and it’s only mildly less horrible, because as far as I know, christians only do it to themselves. I do agree that they are all equally insane.
January 24th, 2008 at 6:59 am
Zeinab u are totalkly rite.the ashura is part of muharram. muharram is when our prophet P.B.U.H family and neices had been killed by the shias.shikas are another type of muslims.The pictures above show the shias.The ashura is a very sad and mourning period.You can show these ;pics to the people bcoz what the shias are dpoing is wrong. Allah has said that you shouldntb harm yourselves and these people are justb too mad to be muslims. They have a diffewrent salah *(prayer) than sunnis. sunnis are another group of muslims.The shias believe in Prophet Ali the most. which is totally wrong and is a disbeleif and i think definitely that shias are kaafir(disbeleivers)as for the weird habits and beleifs they have.Their ancestors have murdered our Prophets family!No way they are going to get forgiven by Allah.Hell is the only place for them.And its so offwencivve to muslims whoever wrote happy ashura.Lert me share one more thing. Islam is the only rel;igion to whom most of the people have converted to.Islam is all truth..all scientistshave read the Quraan and all of the facts in it are happening.May Allah give you common sense.
January 24th, 2008 at 7:02 am
alcari you are totally rite. may Allah bless you and all our lovely muslim brothers and sisters.
January 24th, 2008 at 7:05 am
musiclover this is real. the ashura is real. they beat themselves. not even beat but bleed..I have seen it in pakistan and i couldnt sleep for ages.Mah Allah Bless you.
January 24th, 2008 at 3:55 pm
Rita, i am shia, and we believe hurting ourself is bad. I have never seen people make themselves bleed. I think that these people in the pictures simpley express their sadness in that way- which is not a good thing to me, but its their choice.
I wanted to tell you rita, you have no right saying we shias should go to hell. If you are muslim, then shame on you for disrespecting your fellow muslim brothers/sisters. I am Shia, but i still respect you sunnies. Many of my friends are sunni, and many are shia. we all respect eachother. By the way, our ancesters didnt “murder” our prophets family! we love Prophet Mohamed, and his son in law Imam Ali and the rest of the family. You guys follow others (other than Prophet Mohameds family.) what ever Yazid and his army did to Imam Husain was very bad. Dont you know the story?
over all, in my religion, i learn to respect others. i respect all religions, especialy different types of muslims. so when i here another muslim speaking badley about others, that is beyond me. I have many harsh words to say, just like you, but i would never let them out.
In the end, say what you want to say. Alhamdulillah (thank god) I am who i am, shia, and i am very proud. if not today, one day you will have different thoughts. as for now, do/think what you wish, a true believer will just nod at you and smile.
January 24th, 2008 at 4:03 pm
Alcari, i dont force my religion on anyone, unless they simply ask for some info. Please stop saying my religion is “inconsistent”, because you cant say those things about my religion (or any other religion) unless you have information like a Scholor. But i can’t force you to do anything or think in anyway, although i am able to give suggestions.
By the way Alcari, i like your wide vocabulary.
January 24th, 2008 at 4:29 pm
“I think that these people in the pictures simpley express their sadness in that way- which is not a good thing to me, but its their choice.”
I agree. It is their choice and perfectly okay with me. Weird but okay. People can do whatever they want AS LONG as they do not hurt other people and here is the problem as I see it.
Check the pictures again - there are children on them. These children does not express sadness - they are being harmed.
January 24th, 2008 at 5:38 pm
in the name of allah, the all merciful the compasionate”
excuse me ‘rida’ its a common misunderstanding, but shias do not believe in ‘prophet ali’ ok? muhammed rasool allah. dont go badmouthing us like we are not muslims, ali is the rightful successor and muhammed is the final prophet.
we pray according to how the prophet prayed, if you go study islamic history, i believe you will find that the sunni caliphs introduced the crossing of the hands whilst praying and it was never done by the holy prophet of islam (pbuh).
we may be a minority, but we will grow and we will always spread the truth. we are the followwers of the ahlulbayt (the prophet’s family) who have been mentioned in the quaran as being the best of guides. and yet we are still opressed. allaho akbar, my lord you are so merciful and compasionate yet mankind is so ignorant, forgive us of our crimes and guide us to the correct path, for you arethe almighty, the merciful…
and btw, repect to all the pious people out there, regardless of religion, shias and sunnis must unite and put aside their differences, for thta is the only solution…
“Say: I do not ask of you any reward for it but love for my ahlulbayt (near relatives)”
(Surah Shuara (42), Verse 23)
“Allah desires to keep away the uncleanness from you oh ahlulbayt, and to purify you a thorough purifying” 33:33
January 24th, 2008 at 5:57 pm
uuh yeah muslim boy,
nice way to crap on about nothing.
and i say DISRESPECT to all pious people (ignorant arseholes) for choosing to blindly believe in fanciful words vocalised by a violent paedophile (in the case of islam), over true rationality, knowledge and human compassion.
and it really isnt worth much more than amusement to us when you write your prayers to allah on this site.
January 24th, 2008 at 5:59 pm
“I’VE HAD IT WITH THESE MOTHERFUCKNG SNAKES ON THIS MOTHERFUCKING PLANE” (Samuel L. Jackson, “Snakes on a Plane”)
January 27th, 2008 at 5:00 am
muslim boy and abeh iam sorry if i have been disrespecting u lot but this the truth…shias had actually murdured Imam hussain…and i meant like these shias in the pics shud go to hell iam sorry if it really hurt u but why do u all curse ur selfves wen ur ancestors have killed the Prophet (P.B.U.H)Yeah And Allah has said that u shouldnt harm urselves then why do they do this and bleed little children????…..Why cant they just be muslims..yea and why donbt they repent and ask for forgiveness from Allah..Allah will forgive..thanks for telling me my mistakes …
May Allah bless u
January 27th, 2008 at 5:03 am
Jayman i bet u dont even have a religion..ok at least we have a religion we know who has created us and the whole world…and we shall see wen u will be in hell and we muslims in paradise..ok so plz jus dont open ur disgraceful mouth
January 27th, 2008 at 5:09 am
well muslimboy, in my school I go to offer my salaah and there are some shia muslim girls who offer salaah in a totally different way why so? Does that mean ur a proper muslim by offering salah in a different way than other muslims??????if 1 out of then muslims are praying that means they are either praying wrong or they are shia….
May Allah bless u
January 27th, 2008 at 8:44 am
“in the name of allah, the beneficent, the merciful”
to begin with, rida…
may i ask why u say the shias are the murderers of ali? on his farewell pilgrimige before he died, our beloved prophet muhammed (pbuh) stopped at a place called ghadir khum. there, in the heat of the sun, he stood on the platform and made a speech to the muslim ummah.
“O people, I am a human being. I am about to receive a message from my Lord and I, in response to Allah’s call, (would bid good-bye to you), but I am leaving among you two weighty things: the one being the Book of Allah in which there is right guidance and light, so hold fast to the Book of Allah and adhere to it. He exhorted (us) (to hold fast) to the Book of Allah and then said: The second are the members of my household I remind you (of your duties) to the members of my family.[38].”
“O people, I am a human being. I am about to receive a message from my Lord and I, in response to Allah’s call, (would bid good-bye to you), but I am leaving among you two weighty things: the one being the Book of Allah in which there is right guidance and light, so hold fast to the Book of Allah and adhere to it. He exhorted (us) (to hold fast) to the Book of Allah and then said: The second are the members of my household I remind you (of your duties) to the members of my family.[38].”
Muhammed then raised the hand of Ali and shouted “whos ever’s master i was, then now ali is to them a master - man kuntu mawlah fa hatha aliyun mawlah”
the above quote is confirmed by both shias and sunnis, i asure you i study Islam.
i hate to say this, but after Muhammed (pbuh) passed away, the calipha was stolen from Ali. Umar, Ubu Bakr and uthman were all older than ali and were shocked to see Muhammed favouring him to be the Caliph. Ali was the first male convert to islam. he stood by muhammed (pbuh) through out his life and was loyal to him. as for Umar, Abu Bakr and Uthman they were non believers at one point in their lives.
however, being the patient and pious person ali was, he was patient and waited. at the time of the Umar, Abu Bakr and Uthman, they chose their close friends and relatives in charge of the different cities across the islamic empire. he would pay them morefrom the treasury. Now, when Ali became caliph he changed that, he did what Muhammed used to do and paid everyone equally. he wanted Muawia removed but Muawia refused and fought against Ali.
let us study this now:
Muhammed(pbuh) fought the army of Abu Sufyan who was against islam. Abu sufyans Son Muawiyah fought against Muhammed’s son in law Ali AND mUHAMMED’S GRANDSON AND aLI’S SON hASSAN. Muawiyas son Yazid tehn fought against the grandson of the prophet hUssain and was the reason of hussains martydom. i do not understand why you wish to say that us followeres of ali are the killers, when indeed hussain fought for truth and justice and refused to give alliegence to Yazid who was an evil man. Yazid’s army were the ones who slaughtered Hussain and his army of 72 men at karbala. they were beheaded and their heads taken to Yazid.
Yazid had brainwashed the people of damascus into believing that he was right and these people were enemies of islam. if it were not for Zainab, the granddaughter of the prophet of islam and the sister of hussain to stand up to him and make a speech and spread the message of karbala, we probably would be ignorant and think yazid was a great man and he was the rightful leader. we may a minority my friend, but you will never silence the truth…
allah is the all knowing the all mighty.. only he can judge me and you, so don’t go labelling people like that. dont simply assume that because you are the majority that you are correct.
and as for the salah issue, ill let you know that we learn our way of praying from the prophet and his ahlulbayt. that was the reason they were so important, because after muhammed’s death only they had the right qualities to interpret the quaran and islam. the crossing of the arms was introduced at the time of umar. it was not used by the prophet.
and as for jayman, u can go waste your life getting drunk and not believing in a creator. because there is going to be an afterlife and you will be judged on your actions. my lord is merciful, that he has deemed mankind worthy to live and to be tested. there is purpose in our lives and we must live our life in an ordertly manner and refrain from bad deeds, because god is allknowing and knows whats good for you. religion brings morality into lives, id rather be a moral person than soem blind idiot who goes around critisising people for believing in his creator.
January 27th, 2008 at 8:48 am
*sorry i meant to say why do you think we are the murderers of hussain
January 28th, 2008 at 2:31 am
Rida,
are you seriously saying that you’re superior to Jayman because you believe in fairytales? HAHAHA
January 28th, 2008 at 6:22 pm
Rida:
“Jayman i bet u dont even have a religion..ok at least we have a religion we know who has created us and the whole world…and we shall see wen u will be in hell and we muslims in paradise..ok so plz jus dont open ur disgraceful mouth”
No offence, knowing i dont have a religion that wasnt exactly a big leap to make, and you saying “at least we have…” doesnt help your argument. Pity your religion only tells you a STORY of creation (not what actually happened). Keep daydreaming of your virgins waiting for you in paradise, that way hopefully you will be too lazy to become a suicide bomber and hurt innocent people. meanwhile i’ll actually live the one life we have on this planet and do more useful, helpful and good things in a year than you will do in your lifetime.
As long as there are d*ckhead ignorants like you living on this world, ill do whatever i feel like to criticise your racist, bigotted, sexist, genocidal, violent, homophobic, paedophilic and pathetic little pissy religion, its followers and your scumbag of a ‘prophet’:
what a great guy mohammed was! if only i could kill and rape who ever i want, beat my wife and take a 9 year old for a bride… i wouldnt piss on mohammed if he was on fire.
January 29th, 2008 at 1:43 am
how did i miss this?!
muslim boy:
“and as for jayman, u can go waste your life getting drunk and not believing in a creator. because there is going to be an afterlife and you will be judged on your actions. my lord is merciful, that he has deemed mankind worthy to live and to be tested. there is purpose in our lives and we must live our life in an ordertly manner and refrain from bad deeds, because god is allknowing and knows whats good for you. religion brings morality into lives, id rather be a moral person than soem blind idiot who goes around critisising people for believing in his creator.”
nice one to judge and make false accusations (well muslims love to do that) but i guess your ‘purpose’ in life differs in that you believe the word of an illiterate, immoral, murdering, sexist paedophile simply because as a child you were told to do so. and frankly, i’d prefer to get drunk once in a while (which hurts only me) than bash my wife which is something you guys seem to love doing so much. ive got morals in my finger nail than mohammed ever had. im still yet to work out which religion is more hypocritical and full of holes, islam or christianity. islam definitely has brainwashing, fear, pious-ignorance and violence mastered though.
i know who is ‘blind’ and wasting their life in this conversation. hint: it isnt me.
January 31st, 2008 at 5:40 pm
to muslim boy
بسم الله الرØمن الرØيم
ولا تسبوا الذين يدعون من دون الله Ùيسبوا الله عدواً بغير علم.كذلك زينا لكل أمة عملهم ثم إلى ربهم مرجعهم Ùينبئهم بما كانوا يعملون
سورة الانعام الاية 108
as Jayman said “ive got morals in my finger nail than mohammed ever had”
so stopping this conversation with these people is much better than having our prophet and his family (PBUT) being humiliated by unrecpctful people like Jayman.
And to add on I’m proud to be a sheii and I would spare my life and family for Immam Hussain …
(bi aby anta wa ummy ya hussain)
January 31st, 2008 at 6:15 pm
So you would ’spare’ (give?) your life and your family for a dead relative of a murderous warlord paedophile who has a self-proclaimed divine connection with a sky ‘god’?
i rest my case.
I do feel sad for humanity that so many of you have been brainwashed by this inheritantly violent, negative religion, and you will never truly ’see the light’ and be able to think for yourself. And you will also never understand this.
February 2nd, 2008 at 5:46 am
in the name of allah, the all merciful, the compasionate
@jayman…
you have freewill to do as you please…
my point is simply that not all muslims are murderers and there is a minority who actually follow what their religion asks of them…
it is far easier to critisise than to understand. and honestly there is no need for you to be so disrespectful due to your lack of knowledge, as i said before go wasteyour life blindly if you wish… but as for me i want to have purpose in my life and follow the path of my beloved prophet and his houshold. may allah have mercy upon us all
“Surely amnkind is at loss (2) except for those who believe and do the good deeds, and enjoin upon each other truth and enjoin upon each other patience (3)- surat al asr(103)
February 2nd, 2008 at 5:55 am
and another thing is that dont stereotype because not all men are savages who constantly beat their wives, anyone can claim to be a muslim but very few actually follow the religion as they should therefore not killing innocent people….
and it is quite ironic that you assume that we are not freethinkers, i have done my researcha nd i undersatnd why truely islam is beatiful…
“And the life of this world is nothing but play and amusement. But far better is the house in the Hereafter for those who are God-fearing. Will you not then understand?â€
Surah Al-Anam verse 32
February 2nd, 2008 at 6:20 am
“my point is simply that not all muslims are murderers”
But some of them are, so the world will be better off without them.
“it is far easier to critisise than to understand.”
Yes it is, like bitching whenever someone speaks against your religion.
“and honestly there is no need for you to be so disrespectful due to your lack of knowledge”
Actually, if you had as much knowledge as most of the people on here you would not be muslim, or it least you’d understand that you don’t have the right to not be offended.
“and it is quite ironic that you assume that we are not freethinkers, i have done my researcha nd i undersatnd why truely islam is beatiful…”
Because you’ve done research, you have no excuse for following any religion, let alone one as horrible as islam. Have you ever tried scientology?
February 2nd, 2008 at 12:29 pm
in the name of allah, the all merciful, the compasionate
@irishthunder
im not gonna waste muy time on you because you seem to enjoy critisising my religion…
if you have studied islam even at a fundemental level you will find that it completely opposes what these terrorists are doing this present day…
islam is a way of life in which we follow what our lord has commanded of us…
no one is forcing you to do anything, for all i care you can go and waste your life but as for me i choose to put purpose in my life and not be ignorant like youa nd actually praise my creator..
as hard as you may try science will not be able to replace islam. if youve bothered to read the quaran you will find many scientific references and since they are true you should believe the other things the quran states such as there being a god and a hereafter…
whatever you wish to do many god bless youa nd have mercy upon us all :)
February 2nd, 2008 at 4:16 pm
“if you have studied islam even at a fundemental level you will find that it completely opposes what these terrorists are doing this present day…”
I have read the Quran, what I learned from it was how similar it is to the christian bible, it really isn’t special. As far as terrorists, it doesn’t matter if only a handful of people interpret it in that fashion, it still means the world will be better off without it. In regard to criticizing your religion, if your faith cant handle some mild dissent then there you should reevaluate your faith.
February 3rd, 2008 at 8:19 pm
“” no one is forcing you to do anything, for all i care you can go and waste your life but as for me i choose to put purpose in my life and not be ignorant like youa nd actually praise my creator.. “”
Oh, this is just comedy gold. As scientist say: ‘you’re not even wrong’.
“” if youve bothered to read the quaran you will find many scientific references and since they are true you should believe the other things the quran states such as there being a god and a hereafter “”
Yes, and because the Silmarillion tell some thruths, like the fact that there are stars and the rivers flow into the ocean, we should definatly believe the whole universe was creating by singing demi-gods.
I sense a slight problem with your reasoning.
April 3rd, 2008 at 3:33 pm
I don’t know who started this website and what his/her purpose was, but as a shia who lives in the United Sates, I am ashamed to see such comments from HUMAN BEINGS!!! Yes, I agree that if these pictures are true, it is not what Islam and Imam Hussain came for. Imam Hussain did not give his life for us to misrepresent Islam! However, I am ashamed as a human being to read these overgeneralizations. Just because a few people do something wrong, you have NO RIGHT whatsoever to say that ALL Shiites are MURDERERS or anything disrespectful! You know why Jews and Christians are so united? Because they come together, help each other everywhere, and fight whoever stands on the other side! I have never seen 2 Jews or 2 Christians fight over these things. It’s sad to see that most of you are muslims and are wasting your time by fighting each other, instead of reading and UNDERSTANDING the holy Quran so you can show others the true side of Islam. Try to find similarities and get closer to eachother, rather than finding differences and killing each other!
I don’t know how I came across this site, and I will never come back, but I couldn’t leave without saying these. I really am ashamed as a human being to hear that MUSLIMS call each other murderers. It doesn’t matter what sect you are, you are Muslims.
I will not be back to see your comments, but I hope you stop those who are misrepresenting Islam; this is your mission, NOT KILLING EACH OTHER!
May Allah (swt) have mercy upon all of us.
Fi amanillah
April 3rd, 2008 at 4:19 pm
“Just because a few people do something wrong, you have NO RIGHT whatsoever to say that ALL Shiites are MURDERERS or anything disrespectful!”
Actually yes, we do have the right to say whatever we like.
“It doesn’t matter what sect you are, you are Muslims.”
1. No we arent
2. I’ll extend that statement a tad:
It doesn’t matter what religion you are, you are humans. Anything that can be used as another excuse to hate each other and divide us should be wiped out of society, all religions fall into this category.
April 4th, 2008 at 11:50 am
“In the name of allah, the all-merciful, the compasionate”
wow, irish.t,
u actually hate religion don’t you???
well if you choose to believe god doesnt exist, then give us our right of he does.
i don’t mock athiests for failing to acknowledge their lord’s existence, and i would greatly appreciate it if you stopped mocking muslims for their belief in a supreme lord.
irish.t, what would it take foryou to believe in God?
* visual evidence?
* near death experience?
*a dream maybe?
*Sciene?
i am Intrigued as how athiest (some) are able to completly remove god as a possibility. religion and science dont have to conflict, it is perfectly possible for both to work together.
as hard as we try, it is unlikely that us human beings will be able to answer all unanswered questions correctly due to our limited intellect.
ya Allah, guide these athiests to the correct path. For surely you are all-powerfull my lord…
April 4th, 2008 at 12:48 pm
@muslimboy
most atheists don’t dismiss the possibility there is some form of life more powerful then humans. there is no evidence one way or another. myself, i don’t even dismiss that such a being might have influenced human development at some point. but i am not making such a claim either. there is just no evidence.
there are things we CAN dismiss. islam is based on the same basic mythology as christianity and judaism. for each of these 3 religions we can say with great certainty that their holy books are not “of divine origin” and certainly can’t be read literally as truth. the creation stories in the 3 religions are utter non-sense.evolution represents a very comprehensive model of how life developed on earth, and it’s backed up with enormous ammounts of evidence.
the “morality” described in those books is highly dubious and very much in line with the time it was written. people are much more moral NOW than they were in the time of the bible and the koran, because of education and secular influence on various societies (mainly europe).
people are still widely immoral, but it’s much better than a thousand years ago.
without proof, all you have is a bunch of hot air. why do you think muslims are so defensive? why do you think muslims repeat religious process so much? your faith is a house of cards, very fragile. your persecution complex is not unique. christians in the united states have the same problem, even though there are more churches than fast food restaurants (and that says something). noone is persecuting you, but there are a lot of people who won’t stand for all the negative influence that comes from your religion (or any other religion).
April 4th, 2008 at 3:08 pm
“well if you choose to believe god doesnt exist, then give us our right of he does.”
Proof your belief has some actual basis, and we might give it another thought.
“i don’t mock athiests for failing to acknowledge their lord’s existence, and i would greatly appreciate it if you stopped mocking muslims for their belief in a supreme lord.”
Why? Why shouldn’t we mock your religion? You can go and mock atheism/agnosticism/deism, we have proof on our side, anyone saying otherwise IS a fool.
“what would it take foryou to believe in God?
* visual evidence?
* near death experience?
*a dream maybe?
*Sciene?”
A booming voice from heaven, followed by every single prophecy in the bible/quran coming true, followed by a guided tour through heaven. That MIGHT begin to convince me, though even that is not prof of Allah/Jehove, merely of a powerfull entity.
“i am Intrigued as how athiest (some) are able to completly remove god as a possibility. religion and science dont have to conflict, it is perfectly possible for both to work together.”
We’re able to completely remove the concept of YOUR god from the real of possibilities. We are also able to show the universe doesn’t need a god. Even though we can never show the universe wasn’t created by some Deistic god, there isn’t a shred of evidence for your Allah.
April 4th, 2008 at 3:38 pm
Hello muslim boy,
As always, I appreciate your well-mannered comment and tolerant nature.
You may have missed it, but I made a comment earlier on a different post that may help explain why some atheists (and others) mock Islam. You can find my comment at this link.
I know that you posed this question to irishthunder, so I hope that neither you nor he mind if I answer for myself. I happen to have a weak belief in a god, but I presume you mean “What would it take for you to believe in the God of Abraham?” For all of the categories you suggest (visual evidence, etc.), the answer would be ‘depends’. It depends on the quality of the evidence, the amount of evidence, and how well various pieces of evidence all fit together. I use the principle known as Sagan’s Balance: Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Allah is extremely extraordinary, falling completely outside everyday experience. Thus my belief in such a being would require quite a bit of extraordinary evidence.
I think that boris and Alcari answered this point quite ably. I’ll add just one thing. Think about all the reasons you completely remove any god other than Allah as a possibility, then you would understand why we remove Allah as a possibility.
I agree on both accounts. But what I am unwilling to do is to jump from “I don’t know” or “I might have it wrong” to “God must have done it”. It’s an invalid conclusion.
April 4th, 2008 at 4:50 pm
i am soo annoyed!!!
i spent ages writing apost but when i posted it i had forgotton to write my name and therefore my post was not posted!!!!!!!
i will reply, thank you all anyway, been really helpful
April 4th, 2008 at 5:29 pm
“in the name of Allah, the all-merciful, the comapsionate”
thank you all for your posts, really helpful..
it is completely understandable why you are in the position you are in (i.e athiests)
from what i have understood so far..
*your position, is similar to mine. i believe in one god rather than to believe in many, as for you, you believe of none rather than 1.
*Muslims are being mocked because you feel your freedom of speech is at cost and therefore by doing so you are showing that you choose to use that freewill to do so.
boris: regardimg your point on morality…
islam as a religion, encourages the performance of the good deeds and prohibits the morally bad. the religion its self is perfectly moral, but it is some muslimeen who choose to interpret it to suit them or even to the extent where they disregard what it mentions and become ‘immoral’ people.
the moral system of any society will fail if those who perform the ‘bad deeds’ are not punished and those who do the ‘good’ are not rewarded. that is the basic principle of it all.
alcari: please name me aspects of the holy quran which have been proven to be false. not the aspects which are debatable (i.e the xistence of god), but those of which cannot not be true due to firm proof against.
since parts of teh quran we understand to be correct (more than basic observations, but scientific references) then surely the parts mankind are unable to understand (e.g the idea of a hereafter) are true as well.
sid, thank u for that..
i read the post and it is a good response.
but to an extent, i think it is merely to show off your ability to mock is it not? by mocking islam you are basically saying ‘ i have freewill to do as i like and i choose to annoy you (muslims) buy supporting these cartoons and to watch you get angry’
i will be honest, if i were to be under the influence of an athiest upbringing, i quite possibly might have had completely different opinions to what i ahve now. however, i have pased the stage where my parents have an influence upon my fundemental belief. i am old enough to balance the evidence for god with the evidence against.
personally, i believe the evidence for is stronger than the evidence against
here are a few points:
many athiests have argued
“if god was merciful, evil would not exist”
I do not agree with the above statement. Personally, I believe that without evil, good could not exist because both elements are dependant upon each other. There are reasons for evil to be present and from a religious perspective, if evil was not present then the whole idea of a hereafter would be destroyed and the purpose for our existence would be questioned.
There are many factors separating the hereafter from this life. Looking at it at a fundamental level, one will see that the hereafter consists of a ‘hell’ which is all bad for us (therefore unbeneficial for mankind) and a heaven which is the oxymoronic element of hell and thus ‘all-good’ and therefore a reward to mankind.
According to Christian belief, God is testing our faith by allowing all these evils to take place. Patience is a key factor to success, besides loyalty (i.e. to not leave your religion) and thanking God even when a misfortune befalls them.
It is understandable why people deny God as being merciful or even to deny his existence completely. As human beings our intellect is limited. We constantly ask unanswered questions and due to our limited intellect are unable to come to a firm conclusion whereby science and religion are not conflicting and the degree of certainty is relatively dominant compared to the level of uncertainty.
Moral evil is due to human ignorance and lack of morality (obviously). As for natural evil, the benefits are heavily outweighed by the negative aspects. For example, an earthquake does more ‘bad’ than ‘good’. As for Volcanoes, their eruptions are necessary for the renewal of minerals in the soil but their effects, potentially, could be devastating.
I believe that there would be no point in an afterlife if evil did not exist in this life. For me to have firm belief in a hereafter, rationally, life must have a purpose and work as a form of testing our faith and testing if we are worthy of a positive hereafter or not.
as you know, evil has 2 forms: natural and moral (caused by us)
the natural evil is a part of nature, and only causes damage to a certain dgree. natural evil (i.e tidal waved, tsunamis, volcanic eruptions etc) all have their purposes.
as for moral evil, it is the fault of man, and justice wil be served.
The perfect harmony of creation around us points to an existence of a creator. Can such beautiful and sophisticated creations, from single celled amoeba to the complex brain of man, have evolved by chance? There must be reason behind this. ‘Luck’ and ‘chance’ are not good enough to explain our creation. The very idea of an all-powerful creator who we submit to cements morality and allows society to run morally.
Everything occurs due to a cause- there is cause and effect. Bertrand Russell once said that he would believe in God, if only he understood who had caused God to come into existence. Although the discussion about this is a bit complicated, we understand there is a need for an Ultimate cause or an ‘uncaused cause’ to work as a trigger. This is necessary; otherwise if we imagine a being created God we must ponder over what created that being. It therefore follows that there must be a cause that has not been an ‘effect’ of something else.
It is understandable why atheists do not believe in a ‘God’. In order to believe in something evidence must be present to support the claim. However, different people view something as either being evidence or not. For example, a fundamental piece of evidence for Muslims is the Qu’ran and as for Christians, the bible.
For example, people who see things describe it as being evidence. However, there are many things we do not see but we know exist. Examples include atoms and gravity. However we understand they exist due to their effects. In that respect, I think that believing in God should be more based on a scientific judgement as well as evidence in religion rather than based on the fact that there is many people believing in his exists.
i hope ive made it a bit clearer why i believ god exists and why i believe it is vital for there to be a perfect Judical system where god will be ‘the best of judges’.
i would like to thank you all for your time, pleasure debating with you lot, ive learnt so much about the athiest perspective and this site has also allowed me to analyse my curent position in islamic belief and why it is important for me to continue challanging those who represent islam negatively and terrorise and kill under the banner of islam and use their religion as an excuse to commit horrible crimes…
may Allah have mercy upon us all..
April 4th, 2008 at 5:50 pm
@muslimboy
let’s start with the creation account, as stated in the quran. it’s quite similar to genesis, maybe even more vague. that kind of creationism is proven to be inaccurate.
April 4th, 2008 at 6:25 pm
“islam as a religion, encourages the performance of the good deeds and prohibits the morally bad.”
What does that imply about us as humans? So we would all be robbing, murdering, and raping if it weren’t for someone telling us those things are wrong? Thats the most pessimistic view of mankind I have ever heard.
By the way, I truly LOATHE all things that have caused death and destruction at any time in history. It just so happens religion falls into that category.
April 4th, 2008 at 11:21 pm
Irish —
I’m surprised you didn’t bring up one of the most cogent arguments concerning this aspect I’ve ever heard: if we have been created, we were created with all our emotions, flaws, and urges. So here we have a god who *makes* man lustful, jealous, and violent, and then says “don’t do that!” Makes one wonder, that little theological point, doesn’t it?
By the way, no offense Muslim boy, but that is something which the Abrahamic religions have some serious explaining to do. One of the reasons I am not an adherent.
June 5th, 2008 at 6:17 am
im a good 2 months late..
had exams..
kurt, so u are saying you would rather god didnt put this lust and whatever, and that you didnt have the freewill to refrain from sinning, but rather for god to control your life..
that is what you are suggesting is it not?
you dont want these bad qualities because you think its unfair…
but without them you would be ‘all good’ with no freewill to be bad, and hence youd just be a puppet…
think about it
June 5th, 2008 at 5:16 pm
Muslim boy –
Hope you did well on your exams, and welcome back!
Actually, that point was one that I have heard, and it goes along nicely with what Irish was pointing out. My actual thoughts on the matter go something like this: *all* of our emotions serve an evolutionary purpose. Lust aids in the mating process, anger is useful for defending oneself, etc.; all through the release of hormones. As a scientific agnostic, I tend most towards deism as a proper model for what is seen to occur in this Universe, with a dash of Buddhism and Taoism thrown in. I don’t see any evidence that any “god” which inititated the Universal processes has intervened at all since initiation (the Big Bang).
These things must be balanced: cooperation is good for many things, but has its limits; the same can be said for competition. To actively forbid any emotion we have as completely “evil” is a manichean view of the Universe — black vs. white — when it is in fact made of shades of gray.
And yet the Abrahamic religions *do* posit a black vs. white view, and promise punishment for *thought* as well as action. I just can’t subscribe to that.
As far as free will, I do believe it exists, but there is something to be said for the argument that from outside, everything looks deterministic; from the inside it looks like free will.
Hope all is well with you and yours.
June 6th, 2008 at 5:16 pm
kurt..
a very interesting point,
i dont know if i speak for all abrahamic religions, but for islam it is neccessery for both the good and the bad to be present within one’s self…
the whole idea is that are you able to control your anger, and prevent say anger from clouding your ability to act logically at times..
we want this freewill, we dont want to be puppets and have no control over our destiny..
the whole idea is god is merciful enough to have given us life and to have allowed us to choose what actions to carry out and ultimately if we are worthy of heaven and hell.. the good and the bad must be seperated (i.e punishment and reward) otherwise, the whole idea of morality would collapse..
yesterday, these 2 christian ladies from a local church came knocking on my door.. i opened the door, saw the bibles in their hands and understood the situation immidiatly.. i decided rather than to tell them to go away as most people usually do, i told them i was al ears and willing to listen to what they had to say.. i told them i was muslim and we had a discussion. since im still busy with exams i asked if they could come back when id finished and we could have a proper discussion (with tea and biscuits), because this is not only an oppurtunity for them to try and influence me to embrace christianity, but for me to express my beliefs and hopefully have a significant effect upon them…
kurt i really dont think ive got the right knowledge to deal with those sorts of question, i only just about know my religion enough to be able to understand its basic beauty.. but theres far more i still have to learn. i got a free bible off those ladies, gonna read through it and compare it to the holy quaran. hopefully sooner or later, ill be able to properly answer your questions mate, for now your dealin with a teenager.
my lord is merciful..
June 7th, 2008 at 2:57 am
Muslim boy —
I don’t mean to fry synapses during exams ;) and I am well aware that you are a teenager. Let me share a favorite saying (I’m full of them; one might say that I live my life by sayings and quotations) from my most honored “holy” book, “Stranger in a Strange Land”: “I will wait until waiting in fullness is.” In other words, patience is my watchword (and a very hard-won one at that, I freely admit). I am very happy to hear that your mind is not closed to new ideas; it is one of the wonders of adolescence that all to often ossifies into hard-line thinking with no flexibility. I myself try to be open to new modes of thought, even though I have some hard-wired responses to certain ideas I have heard again and again (for example, the concept of original sin, which seems to me the greatest evil ever propogated upon humanity after due and careful consideration: there is no logical reason whatsoever to blame and punish a one-day old unbabtized baby for the crimes of remote ancestors!).
I could go into the root religions which fed into the Abrahamic ones, but I am a firm believer that self-actualization requires one to do research and study on one’s one. Still, I’ll give you a hint: archeological history indicates that Abraham was in Egypt at the exact same time as the initial concept of a monotheistic god was posited by Ahnkesenaten (father of Tutahnkamen, the only pharoah with an intact treasure found from the 20th century on) . . . which says volumes.
June 7th, 2008 at 3:08 am
And no one can be a bad person if they offer tea and biscuits . . . how very Bedouin of you (a high compliment, I assure you)! :)
July 25th, 2008 at 1:11 am
hi im a muslim im not a shia im a sunni i think these people are very stupid , donkeys in other words they do things that should’t be done , this is the kinda stuff that makes islam look bad everyone shud be (muslim) no shia or sunni or everyone shud be sunni cause shais are crazy people and kill and bomb people
October 4th, 2008 at 1:46 am
Bismillah Ar Rahman Ar Rahim,
(In the name of God, the most Beneficent & the most Merciful.)
Deal gently with a people, and be not harsh; cheer them and condemn not. Holy Prophet (PBUH)
One who says unpleasant things about others, will himself quickly become a target of their scandal. Ali bin Abutalib (A.S.)
If I cut a faithful Muslim into pieces to make him hate me, he will not turn into my enemy and if I give all the wealth of this world to a hypocrite to make him my friend he will not befriend me. It is so because the Holy Prophet has said: ” O Ali! No faithful Muslim will ever be your enemy and no hypocrite will ever be your friend. ” Ali bin Abutalib (A.S.)
A bedouin came to the holy prophet Muhammad (s) and asked him some questions.
Bedouin: I wish to be the richest person in the world.
Prophet: Be content and you will be the richest person in the world.
Bedouin: I would like to be the most learned of people.
Prophet: Fear Allah and you will be the most learned of people.
Bedouin: I would like to be the most just of people.
Prophet: Desire for others what you would like for yourself and you would be the most just of people.
Bedouin: I would like to be the best of people.
Prophet: Be good to others and you will be the best of people.
Bedouin: I would like to be the most honorable of people.
Prophet: If you do not complain to any fellow humans you will be the most honorable of people.
Bedouin: I wish to be safe from Allah’s Wrath on the Day of Judgment.
Prophet: If you do not lose your temper with any of your fellow humans, you will be safe from Allah’s wrath on the Day of Judgment.
Bedouin: What are the worst evils in the sight of Allah?
Prophet: Hot temper and miserliness (i.e. selfishness with money).
Wassalam.
November 30th, 2008 at 4:16 am
well what u r seeing is actually not this…
we are proud to be a followers of IMAM HUSSAIN a.s. and FUCK OFF the whole bloody ass wholes world!!
December 23rd, 2008 at 4:46 am
look i am muslim too..this was weird..
January 7th, 2009 at 4:21 am
I am Shei3yi and i am proud of being student of karbala school where we learn a lot from it,this who we are we can give our blood for the name of imam al hussein,we are the brave and strong people in south of lebanon ,we dont fear from death because we are the beloved people of imam hussein ,and for rida(345) i want tell him that the donky is really who mention these words and wrote them not the shi3a idiot man ,shi3a are the people who keeps always the head of Arabic countries up not like egypt and saudi arabia ya foolish .
January 7th, 2009 at 2:47 pm
Thank you for this site, i am an Iranian 30 years old theoretical physics student from tabriz,Iran’s 3rd largest city and i am absolutely ashamed of myself to be muslim,specialy for being sheia.don’t think that these freaks are artificial. superstition is in the heart of Islam.
Islamic leaders and fake prophets were wild and idiot humanoids. specially Mohammad Ali and 18 years old girl named Fatima.
January 7th, 2009 at 2:59 pm
But these are good because buy these kind of praying the universe will get clean of them.we need Edvard Witten ,Uzeyir Hajibeyov(Great Azerbaijan composer),new Einsteins ,…if Uzeyir will go to hell and Mohammad to heaven,i prefer to go to hell.at least i can listen to his great symphonies,i can talk to Einestein. i can attend in witten’s class in the middle of fires.
January 13th, 2009 at 8:46 am
this is an answer to farhad for his comments on the holy prophet and his holy progeny , 1st of all woe to u for being ashamed of urself as a muslim!!!! being blessed to live in the holy city of iran yet u dont realise how blessed you are! and then again how dare you beignborn as a muslim u speak so disrespectfully about theholy prophet imam ali and lady fatimah??? there has to be something wrong with you mentallyyy !!! wake up before its too late follow teh right creed before you regret in the grave wehre there will be no return !!as far as the day of asshura is concerened every muslim and non muslim is very well aware of the tragedy faced by the holy families…its very sad to see that you are strongly against it. very true when it comes to extremist as i call them who are ignorant and unaware of the actual fact behind commamorating the day of ashura, but for these few illiterate and ignorant people you have no rights to blame the whole shia world!! would you accept to be called a terrorist as the world terms every muslim now???? open your eyes wider before its too late .. to 1 and every muslim who is aware and pretending to be unaware of his/her own faith …wake up before u r woken up!!!
January 13th, 2009 at 10:29 am
Dear all
This is an act done by some ignorant Shia’s. As per the verdicts of the Shia religous leaders, and specifically the Supreme Leader Ayatullah Khamenei, this act is totally prohibited for 3 reasons, 1> it is against human innate nature and logic 2> it was not way the children and infallible progeny of Hussain ibn Ali mourned on him 3> it makes a mockery of Islam.
In every religion and society there are people who break laws. There are theives , rapists, drunkards who give a bad name to a society where these acts are prohibited by laws. Hence not following the laws and verdicts does not mean the system or the ideology is wrong, it is a problem with the people who are not understand and applying. God willing these things will soon be recitifed and Islam will be presented to the world very soon in its purified form which has already started to happen after the Islamic Revolution in Iran in 1979 and the stand of Hizbullah.
Imran
January 13th, 2009 at 5:04 pm
Imran Azmi, a couple of points about your post:
1. You said that there is prohibition by Islam of this because, for one reason,
However, if that is the case, why not just let nature and logic suffice? Why is religion edict even necessary to conclude that cutting one’s forehead is a bad idea? (hint: it isn’t necessary, and you have pretty much said so without being willing to go the distance to the conclusion).
2. In what you also said,
that is easily accepted, but reasonable laws and verdicts can be arrived at without Islam (or any other religion). The Islamic ideology is easily shown to be invalid for other reasons, such as its self-contradictions and the all-too-human weaknesses of its (man-made) god.
So why not just abandon the religion? Reason is sufficient in assessing the present case re Ashura bloodletting.
January 18th, 2009 at 1:11 pm
Shias are true followers of the Prophets sunnat ie true muslims
February 4th, 2009 at 2:41 am
Plz help me. evidence from modern cosmology and evolutionary biology show no evidence of god. so why should i believe that 1400 years ago a mentalist named Moahhamad with limited mind discovered god and became his prophet.or where should i know from that what he said is true. the only thing that we have as a judge is humanity and concise. so if anyone doesnt bother anyone else and doesnt discriminate anyones ennoblement,so why does he/she requires religion. of course my definition is not complete,but is the best that we have for now.
February 4th, 2009 at 2:45 am
one more question for specially shia muslim. what exactly do u mean by holy?
what is holy?
thank u for guiding me. if you define holy i promise to be muslim again and cut my head in ashura and maybe everyday.
Farhad from Tabriz
February 16th, 2009 at 3:37 am
All the rhetoric is just rhetoric. What is the case for a religion whose prophet (peace be upon Him- i mean no disrespect to you) murdered and justifies the willing murder of Jews? It is evident from history that Islam came into being because one tribe (the tribe of Ishmael) was dishonored by another tribe (tribe of Isaac). I think God exists beyond the ridiculous machinations of weak, pathetic human beings who are seduced by the devil- seduced into thinking they are right and others are wrong. God’s intent is for everyone to live in peace and harmony, but the Shaitan corrupted from the beginning.
August 22nd, 2009 at 11:38 pm
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October 6th, 2009 at 7:59 am
this is not islam.
October 6th, 2009 at 10:03 pm
No, this looks and smells precisely like Islam actually!
November 8th, 2009 at 12:14 pm
what they are doing nowhere exists in islam. quran says giving pain to yourself is haram.
November 8th, 2009 at 5:39 pm
362 wins “No True Scotsman Fallacy” award of the day. Congrats, and try using the google to learn why. Or start here
http://rationalwiki.com/wiki/No_True_Scotsman
Plenty of pain exists in the quran, especially that supposedly brought by unbelievers on themselves. Allah is just another man-made god-asshole, nothing more.
Religion is ridiculous.
November 16th, 2009 at 9:52 am
this is not islam.
November 16th, 2009 at 2:02 pm
364 echoes 362 and 360 and maybe earlier posts, and it has the same problem that Korgan pointed out in 363.
Asif Zardari, you are pretty much making the No True Scotsman Fallacy. Korgan’s link in 363 is an OK explanation. Or, you need to explain why your read of the Quran is right and why these bloodied folks and others have it wrong.
November 18th, 2009 at 12:29 pm
who says this is islam or religion?
December 22nd, 2009 at 2:54 pm
if this is what the world (and all you) think of islam then i am really sorry. i converted to islam a few years ago and i mourn ashura. though it does NOT involve cutting or ridiculously injuring myself or an inncent child. those who choose to act such violently know nothing about islam.
December 22nd, 2009 at 3:17 pm
I call No True Scotsman fallacy on 367.
english girl, go read the link in Korgan’s post 363.
Also, for a separate point, see my comments here
http://religiousfreaks.com/?p=558
Basically, as in my other post in that link, if the supposed word of god can be so readily misinterpreted as in the different takes we see in this thread on ashura, then the word of god is flawed and isn’t from a perfect being. In other words, Islam (and the many-flawed book that its flock keeps referencing) is a complete farce.
December 24th, 2009 at 3:30 am
dear netyahoo
I am afraid that you do not make any sense. the misinterpretation of God’s word does not show that God has flaws or is not perfect.
you can tell me somthing perfectly correct and flawless and i can turn it around and misinterpret it. but this only shows that i have not understood you correctly not that you are wrong.
i am sorry but this is going to be my last comment as i am very busy with work. i am not trying to convince you or anybody to become a muslim or that islam is the best religion and everyone should embrace it. i just wanted to lessen the stearotype. i respect your views (whatecer they may be) so i only ask for the same.
best wishes
December 24th, 2009 at 8:36 am
english girl,
The reality is that you are giving up not because you are busy but because you don’t have an argument, nor evidence, nor proof for your sky fairy. It was explained to you that your post contained a very basic common fallacy, along with other nonsense, and you could not rebut that. So, be gone and take your evil religion with you.
December 25th, 2009 at 3:24 am
lmao. Im sorry netyahoo but english girl crushed your argument. I dont even know why you and all the others care so much?? If they wanna be muslims and do whatever let them. If you dont want to do it then dont. Stop trying to convince them man. Lol
December 25th, 2009 at 8:50 am
Imagine Hamish McDonald, a Scotsman, sitting down with his Glasgow Morning Herald and seeing an article about how the “Brighton Sex Maniac Strikes Again.”
Hamish is shocked and declares that “No Scotsman would do such a thing.”
The next day he sits down to read his Glasgow Morning Herald again and this time finds an article about an Aberdeen man whose brutal actions make the Brighton sex maniac seem almost gentlemanly.
This fact shows that Hamish was wrong in his opinion but is he going to admit this? Not likely.
This time he says, “No true Scotsman would do such a thing.”
—Antony Flew, Thinking About Thinking (1975)
December 25th, 2009 at 1:32 pm
“cool dude”, you are anything but what you want to think you are.
english girl’s argument was utterly and totally crushed by me because I pointed out that it contained a basic fallacy, No True Scotsman. Jagannath then illustrated the fallacy. There is no possible rebuttal, and the argument was lost by english girl.
Further to what I said, you and other stupid religious folk seem to not understand that the requirements on a god, for it to have the claimed features, are utterly stringent. Think that through before you post again. This is also related to why the koran, that shitty book of evil, is not a perfect work evn though stupid muslim freaks often try to claim that it is.
Your stupidity has been revealed and english girl lost the argument, asshole.
December 26th, 2009 at 7:25 pm
Why do you people take certain sensational pictures and always post them as a generalized representation of the muslim world. I just went to a procession for Ashura in Downtown Toronto. No one was cutting themselves no one was bleeding. Not even 5% of the shia world does the above practices and they are condemned by the Shia scholars.
Hussain (as) was a pious and galiant leader of the believers who stood for a great cause: Fighting evil through self sacrifice and never bowing down to anyone but God. We weep on the savage way him and his family and other companions were killed.
Let us mourn in peace brother.
December 27th, 2009 at 2:39 am
You are saying that because it is just a small group doing something, we should just let them? What if there would be a small group of people cutting noses from random people in your neighbourhood? Would you say, there is only few nosecutters, we should let them continue as most people disagree with their practise anyway.
Why do religious people always want to protect all aspects of religion, even those aspects they disagree and are ashamed of?
Wrong cannot be right even if it falls under the banner of faith.
December 28th, 2009 at 6:38 pm
I know that the real shia believes is not like these photos showed here. What that you see here, in fact is miscellaneous in shia religion, but some ignorant people, do this against real shia believes.
I know that in Iran, these actions are banned by religious leaders, government and police.
December 28th, 2009 at 8:15 pm
Re 376, specifically your bit about “the real shia”, I call you on the No True Scotsman fallacy for that line. Have a read here:
http://www.logicalfallacies.info/presumption/no-true-scotsman/
And yeah, the Iranian government bans a lot of actions, regardless of whether those actions are right or wrong - any protest against it included. Good thing that dunderhead Ahmadinejad probably won’t last much longer as president.
January 29th, 2010 at 9:35 am
I was on the net when I saw that, it just mad me wanna throw up !!!
They call that a religious day?!
All we can see when we look at this photograph is blood and unconscious people.
Look at the woman, her son is bleeding and she is smiling !
All those people are not good religious, and what they practise is not even written somewhere.
They are just crazy and not humain.
January 29th, 2010 at 11:20 am
melissa, your post got off to a good start, but “good religious” is a contradiction in terms.
and yeah, being written in a book is all it takes to have a religion that idiots will believe in, apparently.
January 30th, 2010 at 2:25 pm
Yeah, that was a cheap thrill but still valid and poignant.
March 5th, 2010 at 2:57 pm
let them dead!!is good if they dead,iam happy if they dead.they are sattan in this world
March 5th, 2010 at 3:41 pm
yeah, I wouldn’t wanna be sattan myself. Especially if the person that sattan me was heavy.
March 19th, 2010 at 4:58 pm
this so crazy, wat the **** they doin cuttin them selves, thinkin bout it ouch.!!!!!!!!!!
March 26th, 2010 at 12:37 pm
WHAT THE FUCK!!!!!!!!1 THIS IS FUCKIN STUPID AS HELL!!!!!!!!
April 9th, 2010 at 11:55 pm
i am she3a i dont appricate what u guys have posted. every drop of blood that comes out of us is the love for our imams. you sunni people r the most discusting people ever i have allot of hate for u all. we will see who will be standing on the doors of heven iza ma bit wali l imam ali u will never see heaven! la3antallah 3a omar ibin saad! everyland is karabalaa and everyday is ashoura. and this blood and the tears we shed this is all nothing we should do more and more to get u all mad. every eye that crys for hussein and a7le l byt will get each tear back on the day of judgment i want to see what la3antallah 3a omar w mo3waya will give u inreturn those dirty nonfollowers la3tallah 3a 3aysha w hind allah yi7ro2kon kilkon be aberkon
April 10th, 2010 at 11:38 am
she4a is suny 3 and 1. Now appricate with use 2.
posted
June 17th, 2010 at 3:18 am
they must be out of their mind. Islam never told to their people to hurt each other or even themselves. May Allah forgive what they did………
June 17th, 2010 at 8:46 am
They must be following their religion. That’s exactly what Islam tells them to do: violence to everyone, but to themselves and their closest kin the most.
May their non-existent allah continue to do nothing at all. May they lose their horrid religion.
June 20th, 2010 at 7:45 pm
There is nothing wrong with the rituals of Ashura, u r all wrong to attack it. Our children are brave and the most strongest of all, they are not afraid
June 20th, 2010 at 9:05 pm
There is much wrong with the rituals of Ashura, They are all wrong and only stupid people are dumdum enough to do them. Mohammed loves children most strongest of all. He liked to do them, the younger the better like his 9 year old wife.
Goose osama today. Give it to him behind as he like it. Goosegoosegoose he love it.
June 21st, 2010 at 7:07 pm
May God bless Muhammad, peace be upon him and his grandsons Hassan and Husayn.
Everyday is Ashura and every place is Karbala
Peace be upon you Husayn, O King of martyrs
June 21st, 2010 at 7:14 pm
There is much wrong with the rituals of Ashura, They are all wrong and only stupid people are dumdum enough to do them. Mohammed loves children most strongest of all. He liked to do them, the younger the better like his 9 year old wife.
Goose osama today. Give it to him behind as he like it. Goosegoosegoose he love it.
July 28th, 2010 at 7:52 pm
TRUE SAVAGES!
July 29th, 2010 at 4:32 pm
Hooo shite…