Today is February 9, 2006 and you know what that means. It’s time to commemorate the martyrdom of Husayn ibn Ali, the grandson of Muhammad at the Battle of Karbala in the year 61 AH (AD 680). This tradition is better known as Ashura and is very popular amongst Shia Muslims. Many choose to spend the day performing mourning rituals or passion plays re-enacting the martyrdom. While most people march through the streets beating their chest, others emulate the suffering of Husayn by flagellating themselves with chains or cutting their foreheads until blood streams from their bodies.
Related posts:
- Happy Ashura!
- Holy SHi’ITe Kids! Happy Ashura!
- Happy Gai Jatra My Fine Hindu Friends!
- Benny Hinn–Let The Bodies Hit The Floor
- Happy Chrismahanukwanzakah Everyone
July 5th, 2007 at 3:06 pm
well done, but i had no intention whatsoever to deceit, i can asure u.
ill be honest, i wrote under the three different names to strenghen our side of the debate.
this debate is good because it is impossible to use physical violence lol.
any way, i hope it can be made clear that there is a starting point, call it whatewver, but to us muslims it is allah (swt).
sorry for any inconvienience i amy have caused, how do find out ANY WAY SID LOL?
July 5th, 2007 at 12:58 pm
LOL, thanks for that piece of insight, some guy, but you’ve already posted under the name ‘muslim’ (and shia muslim). You have contributed to the debate and are thus not capable of offering an unbiased evaluation of the debate.
Not that you are really reading all of what I wrote. You responded to very few of the questions I put to you.
And by the way, what would Allah have to say about your attempt at deceit?
July 5th, 2007 at 12:46 pm
yo ppl,
looks like the muslims r winnin this debate,
the otha ppl r just makin excuses thats all
July 5th, 2007 at 12:56 am
Sorry for assuming stuff, it just how it sounded to me, on the other hand, I gave you the credit for trying to listen to it.
What I meant that there are verses didn’t make sense to past people, that people heard things about how the human-being devolpe inside the mother womb, how could they verify that, if it was true or not, thank Gos that the science now can verify such a thing.
People believed in Muhammed in past without a doubt, and that’s why God put some facts for people to see it when there is a doubt.
Regarding arguing that everybody claims that his religion has scientfic facts, I think tha’s not right, as you saw the Christian guy couldn’t answer 22 claims from the Muslim scholar and he said I plainly “I don’t know”.
At the end I thank you at least for taking the time watching the video, at least you are civlized person, and I really enjoyed arguing with you.
July 5th, 2007 at 12:11 am
Mohamed,
Please do not assume that you know how I felt. I thought the Christian guy was an annoying idiot. I thought the Muslim guy was slightly less annoying. Neither of them made any sort of logical argument. I just have a short attention span. I don’t even like watching action movies that are longer than 90 minutes. Villainizing me will not make your argument more valid. I could take a 4-hour religious debate, but the word debate means that there will be some logic behind the presentation. This was a 4-hour long pissing match by 2 people who both believe in religion.
Neither do I. I also don’t see any verses that agree with science. I see a religious text about religion. Yet the two men in the video saw verses that conflicted or agreed with science.
I challenge you to find ANY quote by a well-respected Muslim leader from ANY time where that leader claims that ANY verse of the Qur’an does not make sense.
No religious leader would every make a claim that a verse does not make sense. They will always come up with a good-sounding interpretation, and then when new knowledge comes out, they will change their interpretation. Every religious text is so vague and poetic that you can find “signs”. Christians claim the bible is full of “signs”, Muslims claim the Qur’an is, others claim Nostradamus wrote signs.
July 4th, 2007 at 10:37 pm
I don’t see any verses that confilict with science.
I’m sorry for giving you home work, I didn’t mean to make it as homework.
Quran is not science book, Quran is a signs book as the Muslims scholar said, he gives you signs, I’m sure these verses didn’t make sense for some people in past, but now it makes sense, you know why? because it’s directed for someone like you. Quran is for every time, it was challanginf for the Arab people because they are good poets, now is challanging for people how study science, which on the conrast, Bible in Torah can’t stand up for this challange, becuase they came for just one time.
Again sorry for making you watch the video, at least I can see now how you think, you liked the first part that the poor guy tried to bash Islam and he direct every accusations he has in his bag and even every Ethiest bag, and he didn’t even focus on his bible and what his bible saying, and then you didn’t like the part where the Muslim guy answered him and direct questions to the pastor, and that’s when the pastor’s face yale and turned yellow and he couldn’t answer one question.
And actually it’s mentioned in Quran, that when you face non-muslims by the signs in Quran, their face yale and they don’t what to say.
Thank God that he makes perfection in our religion, and made perfection in his book(Quran), thank God that he makes Quran a miracle.
July 4th, 2007 at 10:10 pm
The Qur’an does not talk about the fetus. The Qur’an has some poetic language which can be conveniently interpreted to mean this. Find me the words of a Muslim Leader from before the 1700’s that claims that these verses are about the fetus.
I hate when you make me repeat myself. Maybe if I put it all in bold…
EVERY book that is more poetic than prosaic can be interpreted to mean ANYTHING you want. I don’t care if the book is the the Qur’an, the Bible, the writings of Nostradamous, Moby Dick, or a collection of poems written by high-school students. If it is NOT written in clear, concise, textbook language, than it can easily be made to mean anything you want.
If god wants to predict future science, he should have his prophets write prose instead of poetry.
Here is a quote from the much-discussed Keith Moore (I added the bold):
Can you see the hole in the logic? Verses that fit with our current understanding of science are accepted as fact, while verses that do not will ONE DAY make sense? This presupposes that the Qu’ran is both infallible and actually talking about science.
Muslim scholars frequently (just listen to the 4 hours of video Mohamed assigns as homework) make this paradoxical argument: Because science is factual, verses that agree with the science prove that the Qur’an is infallible. Because the Qu’ran is infallible, verses which do not agree with science prove that science is not factual.
July 4th, 2007 at 9:52 pm
some ancient cultures that pre-date islam have had pretty advanced knowledge of astronomy.
Big lie, some of this facts that you claim was wrong, so you want me to understand that our prophet choosed the right information out of it, and he just took the right information, and why would he mention scientfic facts in Quran, where it doesn’t make sense for his people, and he didn’t know how to read ans write.
Boris, think about it before you post any answer, because you still make me laugh.
July 4th, 2007 at 5:03 pm
“the quran has made predictions that have come true, name me any other historical as old or older than this glorious book that talks about the foetus in its mothers womb, that talks about the solar and lunar eclipse and many other scientific stuff.”
some ancient cultures that pre-date islam have had pretty advanced knowledge of astronomy.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eratosthenes
information in the quran about astronomy was known hundreds of years before it was written by a man.
July 4th, 2007 at 4:41 pm
in the name of allah,the all merciful and the beneficent
to begin with ‘bismillah al rahman al raheem = in the name of allah the merciful and the compasionate/beneficent for your information sid….
there is a truth. and that truth must exist in the life of mankind, not just modern society otherwise the people of the past will not have access to it. allah is jsut and merciful.
the holy quran is a long lasting miracle. it is NOT justr an acient book. it is a book of wisdom and truth.
the quran has made predictions that have come true, name me any other historical as old or older than this glorious book that talks about the foetus in its mothers womb, that talks about the solar and lunar eclipse and many other scientific stuff.
we have the answer. this islam is not a theory, it is truth. and by the way those terrorists out ther dont represent islam. the may be muslims by name but what they ar edoing is no way islam. these are hypocrites who think by killing innocent people they will enter heaven, while in reality they are actually sinners who will go to hell.
and you athiests just put bunches of rubbish together in an attempt to disguise god. god exists and thats the truth, i guess it must hurt for someone to understand that what they have believing all their life is false.
and by the way just for your info, islam was no way spread by the sword. thats a lie. true islam is based on peace.
‘there is no obligation in relgion.’
most ppl r wasting their lives, there is a main target we must achieve in this life; to please allah by our good ations and refrain from sin.
allah you r merciful, protect me and guide me.
btw, i love the fairness of this debate whereas poor muhammed and i suppose 1 or two others are defending islam and the athiests are just talking rubbish or just put science together. try as hard as you want god will never be disguised.
July 4th, 2007 at 1:48 pm
Boris,
I know how hard for you to hear the truth, the guy that you made fun of, he knows 7 languages at least, so you are not even close in his knowledge, nor even education.
I will tell you why you liked the first hour, because that’s when the pastor was bashing Islam, the secong hour the Muslims guy showed the guy that what he is saying it’s just lies, and he put him questions in the bible to answer, the pastor answered one claim out of 23 scientfic claims the Muslims guy asked him about, and the pastor was answering I don’t know and he start to be evasive.
And that’s why the other 3 hours was painfull for you, you know why? it’s the truth in the last 3 hours, and truth hurts.
Good luck.
July 4th, 2007 at 1:11 pm
@andrew
excellent post. definitely sums up the quran videos very nicely. i’m impressed you lasted a whole hour through that… i gave up after 30 minutes or so. the arguments are painful for anyone who thinks for themselves.
July 4th, 2007 at 9:39 am
Mohamed,
I enjoyed the first hour or so of the video, but four hours just was too monotonous. The arguments were basically all the same.
Christian guy: In this verse of the Qur’an it says (something) which contradicts with the verse where it says (something else) and science which says (the right thing).
Muslim guy: You obviously don’t understand ancient Arabic. Because word (this) which you say means (that) actually means (something different). Not only that, it has several different meanings, and in verse 1 it means (this) and in verse 2, the same word means (that). Not only that, but verse 1 is fact, where verse 2 is just an allegory. Therefore, it’s easy to see that it doesn’t conflict with itself or science.
Repeat for 4 hours.
Yeah. Watching 4 hours of this actually just made my original opinion all that stronger. You can take any religious text, and interpret it to fit the facts of any scientific theory. Here’s how.
1. No one is still alive that speaks the language the text was written in. Even if it’s a language still in existence, language changes so rapidly that books written even 100 years ago can be hard to understand. Leverage this fact by claiming that a certain word or phrase means something different than what it seems to mean.
2. If that word is used in more than one place, make sure to point out that it can mean several things.
3. Find all verses, however trivial, that even appear to support the scientific theory. Repeat them loudly and often.
4. All verses that don’t fit the facts are parables, stories, allegories, or (if you are very brave) mistranslations.
(If anyone, for sheer entertaining value, would like to see me use the above process to show that Genesis 1 is about evolution, let me know.)
July 4th, 2007 at 9:22 am
To me is seems far more intellectually lazy to believe what an outdated book of allegorical poems tells me than to investigate truth myself through reading multiple sources, getting a college education, and then continuing to do research throughout my life. I can accept that there is an ultimate force — the laws of nature.
Modern religion MUST go together with science. The religions that choose not to must either die out, or attempt to rewrite science by social means (see Creationists). However, science does not need religion. The point I was making earlier is that Islamic scholars have changed their interpretation of the Qur’an to line up with modern science and then claimed that the Qur’an predicted modern science. Shoehorning a few verses of a religious text into science is intellectually dishonest.
I base my personal morality on what I feel is right and wrong. I do not blindly follow the words of religious leaders. My feeling of right and wrong does not come from god, it comes from portions of my mammal brain that have evolved due to natural selection. At some point we started down the path where animals that stick together had a better chance of surviving than those that did not. That unique selection pressure is the root of morality.
I do have rules to follow. Laws are enacted for the common good and survival of the society. I obey these laws, but not blindly. Luckily, I live in a country that has a process where if I feel a law is unjust, I can challenge it — or if I feel there needs to be a new law, I can propose it. My morality can adapt to any situation, without being forced to reinterpret an ancient, outdated book.
I would rather spend my short life improving myself, helping others, and building society, than wasting my time praying 5 times a day and meeting up to be lectured every Friday in hopes of achieving a fictional outcome.
July 4th, 2007 at 4:14 am
Doubt, that is a keyword.
I am afraid of people who do not have doubts as they are willing to do anything just because they no longer question themselves and the world around them. To them their actions are justified. To question their belief is blasphemy and that leads to a vicious circle of suffering as most people are angered by angry self righteous acts.
So doubt things if not for anything else but to get a short time to think over what you are going to do and is it really right or worth it.
July 3rd, 2007 at 7:18 pm
Howdy all,
Muslim, whilst I understand the premise of your arguments I don’t think have grasped some of the major concepts behind the athiest point of view. You seem to have tried to understand it through the filter of your own beliefs. In doing this you have made some generalisations and assumptions that lead to rather specious assertions. I would like to answer some of your questions from my point of view. I do this not to change your beliefs or to undermine your religion but in the spirit of understanding. It is my hope that once we both understnad each others point of view we can learn each respect and tolerance for each others beliefs.
“what is ur theory for creation, luck?â€
I don’t personally have a theory of creation. I do not know how the universe was created. I believe that the theory of eveloution is probably on the right track to explain how life on earth gained its current form. I am not sure however that abiogenisis theory is developed or supported enough yet to be considered anywhere near fact. It may be in the ball park but we just don’t know enough about life yet to make any solid conclusions. The big bang theory is a hard one for me. I really don’t know enough about the subject to really make any judgements about its veracity. I think that creation by a divine being is theoretically possible. However I believe the creation theory to be entirely unlikely and quite probably impossible. Now that I have stated what I do and do not believe I would like to put forward some explanation of why. With our current understanding of the universe around us I simply don’t believe that we can make any firm conclusions on how we came to be. Also given the practicalities of existing I believe that at this point in time it is largely irrelivant. I understand that some people have an almost primal need to explain the purpose for existance and seek out what they believe must be true. Believeing in something however does not make it true. I think that need for a purpose would serve us better if it was used to motivate investigation in the universe around us to solve the mysteries that the universe presents us with. As for creation being about luck, I don’t think so. Given the size and complexity of the universe I think that life was enevitable rather than a fluke.
“do u not value ur life?â€
Yes I do value my life. I do not use a divine being to ascertain that value however. I use experience, empathy, reason, emotion and logic to find value in my existance. Because I believe that this life is the only life I will have it becomes extraordinarily precious to me. As do the lives of others. While I am alive I want to use my life to effect some benifit to the world. Because I don’t believe in a God I have to create that benifit myself rather than leave it up to the unknowable will of some higher power. I hope that explains in some small way how one can find value in life without having to draw upon a diety. In fact I believe it to be arguable that not believing in a diety can force one to place a highly value on life.
“where u an accident? there is purpose in this life”
No I do not believe I was an accident. The best way to explain it would be to say that I think my existance is more of a consequence of the practicalities of existance. When us humans have children someone is going to be born. somebody will created that didn’t exist before. I don’t think this is an accident (and I don’t mean by the “parents didn’t plan it” definition) more the nature of current situation. As for a purpose in life, yes I believe that I have a purpose. I do not find my purpose from a god. I define my purpose myself. I decide for myself what I think are the best actions to effect positive (at least from my perspective) change upon the world around me. I choose to make a stand against an injustice, or to develop new technologies to help the world at large. There are plenty of opportunities in the world for a person to find a purpose and make a meaningful existance out of their life.
“i mean look at you athiests the minute som1 mentions god ur scared. u want to avoid any thing that may alter your way of thinking”
To me this statement is completely fallacious. I come to websites like this to engage in discussion about other peoples beliefs and views on God (ect) so that I can better understand them and widen my knowledge and point of view. I think you would find that to be the case with alot of the athiests here. As to the second part of your statement, I continually seek out new information so that I can alter my thinking. I wish to learn more so that I can change the way I view the world. I want my view and understanding of the universe to be a reflection of what is true.
I believe you are being very hypocrytical in your statement here. You assert that athiests wish to avoid anything that may alter thier way of thinking when your posts demonstrate that you refuse to alter yours. I do not want to alter your beliefs, I just want you to understand mine as I am trying to understand yours.
“in the holy quran it is repeated several times that god is one, even to us muslims. why? because to wash out any doubt, there is a surpreme force out there, call it allah call it god, the important this is there is a force out there.”
I value my doubt. It causes me to question and requestion everything I believe. In the face of new information it allows me to change my perspective,learn new concepts and discard ones that have been proven false. If I removed my doubt I would be stuck believeing what I do now. What if what I believe now is wrong. I have taken away a tool that would have allowed me to correct my mistaken belief and move closer and closer to the truth. If I ever find something that supports the assertion that there is a surpreme force existing then I will certainly have to change my views. It would be my doubt that allowed me to do that. I do not believe that a holy text of any description is sufficent to prove it beyond a doubt no matter how many times it makes the assertion. There may (or may not) be merit in the quran. All the indicators that I have learnt at this stage suggest to me that the concept of a divine creator is (at the very least) unlikely.
“to be honest i think ur lazy, u cant accept that theer is an ultimate force out there so u try and replace it with various theories”
I would just like to point out on this one that developing thoeries to explain the way the universe works takes alot of work. Furthermore that work is far from complete. Now I will admit that I didn’t develop these theories myself. I have spent a large portion of my life learning, studying and thinking about them to decide on there merit rather than just accepting them however. I fail to see how this is lazy. I also spent alot of time studying religion to see if it had any merit. I would say that this is the opposite of lazy. Unlike many of the christians I know, I studied both sides and used all the information I had at hand to slowly build up my concept and beliefs on how the universe works. Alot of my christians friends just took what they where told by their reigous teaches as fact and refused to consider the other side. I can see how that could be considered lazy by I would doubt that to be true either. I would consider it more naive if anything.
“if there is no religion then what are you basing your actions on, infact what are u basing ur morality on”
This does seem to be a common misconception from religous types. There are many tools a person can use to devlop their morality without having to invoke any form of divine will. The other misconception is that athiests use their scientific thoeries and concepts (i.e. eveloution and survival of the fitest) as the basis of morality. This is not true. An explanation of how something may work or came about is not a datum for defining the difference between right and wrong. The only people I know of who have considered it in that light are those who use a God as the source of their morality. I don’t need god to reason out what is fair. I can use empathy and reason to understand the affect my actions will have on others. I can use my own experience to learn about the consequnces of my actions. I can talk to other people and learn different perspectives on what is right and wrong. I can use my own emotions to understand the basic nature of other people. I can feel my own pain, anger, suffering and grief and realise that I do not want to be the cause of such suffering in others. I am not going to write down how I judge every situation or how my moral code works. I think it is sufficient for you to understand some of the basic tools that can be used to develop a basis for morality and know that I have a code of morality. I would also like to add that I believe that with the world changing as fast as it is we must continue to strive to to develop or collective morality to ensure a fair and just society. I cannot see how that can be done using only the teaching of very old documents written in a time before many of the issues we now face where even dreamed of. I know that Christians and muslims believe that in the divinty of their particular god the rules aplly today as much as they did in the past. I however believe that continueing to cling to such outdated codes of morality create a system that is neither fair or just. However this is a discussion for a different time.
I hope that that will give you some idea of my view on the world and help us both to reach a higher level of tolerance and understanding of each other.
Cheers
Simon Bond
July 3rd, 2007 at 6:32 pm
Sidfaiuw,
to answer your question about reapeating things in Quran, it appears for somebody that it repeating, but it’s not, when God repeated something in Quran you always a new peiece of information, and sometimes repeating for assurance, in alot of parts in Quran I thought it’s repeating, but whem I heard the explanation, I understood it was repeating, it was just my limited knowledge that didn’t know, and I really want to improve my skills reading the Quran.
“Christians say the exact same thing about the Bible. So how am I to tell which group is correct? My bet is on neither.”
I can give you link for video for debate for Christian pastor and Muslim scholar and the debate was between science in Bible and Quran, but the video is 4 hours, and I don’t know if you have the time to know some facts you might even know about it before, I will be happey to provide you with the links, if you want.
July 3rd, 2007 at 5:17 pm
Hello muslim,
Can you tell me what “bismillah al rahman al rahim” means? You’ve written it three times now, so I am curious. Speaking of needless repetition…
“if something is true, and it is repeated that does not mean it is no longer true.”
I never seen anyone try to show something untrue by repeating it. I have, however, seen many a Muslim repeat something over and over again as if repetition makes it true. Moving on to another point about repetition…
“the beauty of religion is that we have a guidline to follow, to tell us right from wrong etc. what do u base your morality on?”
Instead of repeating my answer, I’ll just ask you to re-read my comment #177.
“u believe in no god, hence you have no rules to follow and thus are unguided.”
First of all, I think you misunderstood my last comment. I happen to believe in God, I just think that religions give God a bad name by making shit up about It. Also, since you chose not to read the link I provided when I first responded to you, I’ll copy-and-paste it here for your convenience:
“by scared i do not mean frightened, i mean u dont like it, u wish to avoid it.”
Ah, thanks for the clarification. But still, I must point out that you are incorrect. Many of the atheists who frequent this site jump at the opportunity to have a rational discussion about God, mostly focusing on questions of existence. They are active counter-examples to your false claim.
“the quran is only 1 peice of evidence, its predictions, most thing mentioned in the quran have already taken place, so the other things are reliable, what will ahppen on the day of judgement.
Christians say the exact same thing about the Bible. So how am I to tell which group is correct? My bet is on neither.
I could go on, but I’ve already written a lot for you to read. Let me know what you think.
July 3rd, 2007 at 4:30 pm
there is no god but allah, muhammed is his final messenger and ali was entitiled to the calipha after him.
shias and sunnis are brothers/sisters. we should put our differences aside.
July 3rd, 2007 at 4:07 pm
bismillah al rahman al rahim
by scared i do not mean frightened, i mean u dont like it, u wish to avoid it. if something is true, and it is repeated that does not mean it is no longer true.
the reason us muslims pray five times a day and not one is because allah (swt) wants us to constantly remember him. he created us, the least we can do is obey him.
when i say way of thinking, i am refering to in terms of religion. u believe in no god, hence you have no rules to follow and thus are unguided.
the beauty of religion is that we have a guidline to follow, to tell us right from wrong etc. what do u base your morality on? ur parents i suppose, but what do they base theirs on.
if u r born into an athiesrt family then u have been nertured into thinking what u do, u will not change unless u explore evidence for both sides.
to be honest muhammed seems to be doing pretty well coping with ur questions. i mean look at u, u are putting loads of theories together in an attempt to disguise god.
when someone uses god as an explanation, athiests dont like it (thats why they r athiests), they want to disguise it thats what i mean by scared.
i mean take dan barker for example, a christian preacher for 19 or something yrs, until he was impatient and decided to forget his ideas. thats not only lazy but unthankfull.
us humans are blind in a way, if we cant see somthing as far as we know it doesnt exists. wher you there at the time of the prophets when they displaid their miracles by the order of their lord. no. so to you god does not exist.
yet the cleverer ppl, will say ‘ look just because i cant see somthing does not mean it doesnt exist’,
the quran is only 1 peice of evidence, its predictions, most thing mentioned in the quran have already taken place, so the other things are reliable, what will ahppen on the day of judgement. but then again u probably havnt read the quran, it might persuade you that there is a creator!
then obviously thisn life is just a game to u, u have fun and die, there is no value, as long as you dont get hurt ort punished in this life youll be happy. wrong.
we have morals. when we do a bad action its pleasure is always outweighied by its guilt. its pleasure may be short but its guilt is longer lasting.
it is almost the opposite for doing a good action, its pleasure is long lasting and their is no guilt.
July 3rd, 2007 at 3:46 pm
Sid, you evil! :)
I am afraid that your answer to “what is ur theory for creation, luck?†will confuse our friend muslim. I am “afraid” that the terms: Deist, Agnostic or even worst Deist-Agnostic are very confusing to many of our theistic friends, even though they will never admit this. :p
And to answer to question of muslim“i mean look at you athiests the minute som1 mentions god ur scared.†that is just illogical. You see atheists do not believe in god. Therefore there is nothing to be afraid. Unless you consider that you still may be afraid of something you do not believe in?
July 3rd, 2007 at 3:05 pm
“u love taking an indirect way around a question”
Um, I directly quoted one of your questions and posted a response. Did you read my comment? I’ll answer your additional questions if you’d like.
“what is ur theory for creation, luck?” Creation of what? The universe? To be honest, God did it, though I’m not sure what God is.
“do u not value ur life?” of course I do. What kind of question is that?
“where u an accident?” Yeah, I suspect my parents didn’t plan for me since I was born while my father was still in college. Based on that, I’d have to say I’m an accident :) Okay, here’s my serious answer: If by ‘accident’ you mean ‘randomly’ then no, I see no reason to accept actual randomness in the universe.
“i mean look at you athiests the minute som1 mentions god ur scared.”
Well, I’m not exactly an atheist, though you’d probably consider me one. But none of the atheists I know are frightened by God. Have you ever met an atheist in person? Have you ever gotten to know one? My guess is that you would be scared if you didn’t believe in God. Thankfully, not everyone is like you. Is belief the only thing that keeps your fear away?
“u want to avoid any thing that may alter your way of thinking”
Look in the mirror, my friend. I have changed my way of thinking many times on my life based on learning new things. When was the last time you altered your way of thinking?
“in the holy quran it is repeated several times that god is one, even to us muslims. why? because to wash out any doubt, there is a surpreme force out there, call it allah call it god, the important this is there is a force out there.”
Why is it that Muslims seem to think that repeating something enough times makes it true? Mohammed, could you shed some light on this? I don’t care how many times something is written in the Qur’an. Repetition does not equal truth.
July 3rd, 2007 at 2:44 pm
u love taking an indirect way around a question
i am asking u, what is ur theory for creation, luck? do u not value ur life? where u an accident? there is purpose in this life, there is meaning. that meaning is set by a way of living i.e religion.
i mean look at you athiests the minute som1 mentions god ur scared. u want to avoid any thing that may alter your way of thinking, in the holy quran it is repeated several times that god is one, even to us muslims. why? because to wash out any doubt, there is a surpreme force out there, call it allah call it god, the important this is there is a force out there.
July 3rd, 2007 at 2:34 pm
“without morality society is corrupt”
Bullshit. See this comment where I address the very same false claim made by a Christian.
“if there is no religion then what are you basing your actions on, infact what are u basing ur morality on.”
I’ve addressed this a number of times, I’ll lazily copy-and-paste a former response here:
July 3rd, 2007 at 1:59 pm
bismillah al rahman al rahim
andrew, to be honest i think ur lazy, u cant accept that theer is an ultimate force out there so u try and replace it with various theories, am i right? most scientific explanations are theories, however who is to say that science and religion cant go together, infact look at the quran, it makes scientifically correct statements, if there is no religion then what are you basing your actions on, infact what are u basing ur morality on. without morality society is corrupt, u might as well be putting all ur desires into practice, if u hav no rules to follow…
the is no compulsion in religion, religion is a guidline to enter heaven, god asks u one question, do u want this life which is finate or the herafter which is infinate?…
July 3rd, 2007 at 1:56 pm
bismillah al rahman al rahim
andrew, to be honest i think ur lazy, u cant accept that theer is an ultimate force out there so u try and replace it with various theories, am i right? most scientific explanations are theories, however who is to say that science and religion cant go together, infact look at the quran, it makes scientifically correct statements, if there is no religion then what are you basing your actions on, infact what are u basing ur morality on. without morality society is corrupt, u might as well be putting all ur desires into practice, if u hav no rules to follow…
the is no compulsion in religion, religion is a guidline to enter heaven, god asks u one question, do u want this life which is finate or the herafter which is infinate?
July 3rd, 2007 at 2:51 am
@Mohammed,
Well, Andrew already answered most of the stuff you said just one more thing:
Mohammed was a trader for YEARS before he became a “prophet” not to mention that his wife’s brother Waraqa ibn Nawfal was the follower of some other Abrahamic religion(I think it was christianity), so he definitely has been in touch with:
1. MANY different cultures(traders went to India and other places IIRC).
2. both of the abrahamic religions of that time.
3. men of status whom he met during his trade and learned from.
4. poets and the like, since he resided in Mekka.
So don’t tell me “he couldn’t have known about it, he was illiterate” because no one is claiming he read it, it is sufficient for him to hear it from someone. Back then word of mouth was the best way to learn, the internet and printing press didn’t yet exist you know.
July 2nd, 2007 at 4:06 pm
@some guy
I am an atheist. The point of many of my arguments on this thread is that when you interpret “holy” texts, you can always come up with something that sounds convincing. The simple fact it that the texts are too poetic to make prosaic arguments.
When I am done watching the 4 hours of video Mohamed has assigned me (which may take a few days), I’ll post something a little more clear.
July 2nd, 2007 at 2:12 pm
yo andrew, are u an athiest or theist, ur arguement is unclear…
July 1st, 2007 at 9:59 pm
Andrew, I really appreciate your argument, but I don’t claim I know a lot, I will show you link for videos.
The video is for debate between Chritstian pastor and Muslims scholar, and the Christian Pastor ask all the questions on your mind and more, and the Muslim scholar answered them clearly.
If you really have time and you want to see the video and see opinion from somebody knows more than me and you I promise you that you will find interesting discussion.
Before you see it, I’m not interested to convert any body, or convince any body, I’m trying to answer you claims as far as I know, but I feel I’m not the best for that, so that’s the only way that I can answre you, and thank god for the Internet exist to show people other people opinion.
Here is the first part of the debate, and the debate consist of parts, so I will provide you with the first part, and I’m sure you are Utube savvy, and you will see that you can acquire the rest of the debate, and if you couldn’t get, I will be more than happy to provid you with the rest of it.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=9155217310817697706.
Thank you I hope you enjoy the video, and I hope Agony watch the 4 parts of the video, and he will know the answrs for his question too.
July 1st, 2007 at 8:47 pm
Mohamed,
You really have just proven my point. We chose to look at different aspects of the word “fire” and came to totally separate conclusions.
Lets look at the idea that “God created man from dust” a common belief to all Abrahamic religions.
The phrase used to be interpreted to mean that because bodies decompose and turn into soil, man is actually made out of dirt.
Then people found out about how decomposition works and learned about chemicals and elements so they changed it to mean that people are made out of the same stuff as the soil.
When science advanced to show that the chemical composition of soil isn’t the same as of humans the viewpoint changed that it must mean that people are made of the same elements as the planet Earth. (Of course they are. We are from this planet — we have to be made of the same stuff.)
I have even heard it taken to the next step and interpreted to mean that people are made from atoms just like everything in the universe. Atoms are small, like dust is small, but God couldn’t explain atoms to whoever he said the phrase to, so he used the word dust.
Then the coup de grâce, instead of looking at the above and saying, “Wow, religious interpretation sure has changed to adapt to current knowledge,” the religious person says, “See, God told (insert name here) about modern science!”
July 1st, 2007 at 6:34 pm
My friend, with due respect, you can see fire and you can feel but you can hold it, and that’s doesn’t apply to human-being, and that the case about Gen and devil, they are from fire, you can’t release them, they are so fast.
July 1st, 2007 at 5:19 pm
Mohamed,
The beauty of religion is that one can always interpret anything in a way that makes sense with current knowledge. In fact I can interpret your two “contradictions.” So just in case any future editions of holy texts are discovered with this in them…
See, anyone can write this kind of stuff. All the religious texts are so vague and antiquated that you can always interpret them any way you choose.
July 1st, 2007 at 4:34 pm
Agony,
This link is BS and you know that, there is no way for Muhammed to know that, Mohamed didn’t know how to read and write, the other thing his community didn’t even has books or what ever the link you provided claims.
The links put claims that there are contrdiction in what god says, contridiction is why I say you are saying the truth and then I say you are liar, contrdication is two facts can’t be togather, but what the links mentiond is all facts exist in human being, he created from dust, see the elements in human-being and the earthe, they both the same, may be greater may be less, but they still the same, God said he created man from water, that’s another fact, it’s not contrdication, he created him from Semens, that’s another fact, he created him from nothing, that’s another fact.
All of this facts, there is no contridication, the elments of the earth and the water, and the semens, that’s what the human being created from, it doesn’t have to be in one verse, but all make sense, and there is no contridction.
What would be contridction, if God says he created human being from fire or light, which is not fact and contrdict what the human being created from.
Good try any way, try to find something better next time.
July 1st, 2007 at 3:39 pm
carrying on….
you decide if you want to choose this life over the hereafter, this life is finate, you can ask an idiot and even he/she will tell you that, however the herafter is everlasting. all this is based on belief, believe in you lord and the holy quran. the quran is a book of truth and guidance. this is one of the miracles, i think it was you who was asking earlier what was special about the prophets (peace be upon them all), and why do we believe their word. the prophets (pbut), were infaliable they were sinless, by the order of god, they revealed miracles in order to support their claim, for instance prophet moses and the splitting of the sea or the changing of the staff into a snake, these are the kinds of things that if you saw you would understand that there is a supreme force out there which is only one.
but you were not there and you could not see it for your self, (another point about freewill, do you choose when you are born?), however the quran is a long lasting miracle, suphanallah, at the time poetry was popular, when teh prophet of allah (saww) read it aloud, even the great poets at the time acknowledged this as true poetry that could not be man written, notice how the holy quran is the only book whereby god is the primary author (ie the quran is the word of god), even in the holy quran when a prophet makes a statement allah commands him, QUL (SAY), (yeah i know muslim boy made that point as well),
wow the quran, truely a book of glory.
July 1st, 2007 at 3:26 pm
in the name of allah, the all merciful and compasionate
@agony
you cannot have full freewill, otherwise you would decide when and where you die, also you would not be limited and you would be able to obtain freely your desires, and in a way that may impair someone else’s freewill, hence they would not have full freewill.
therefore
if you had full freewill someone else wouldnt and then that would mean not everyone had freewill
for example…
if someone had the freewill do do what they wanted and they were planning to drive somewhere, however on the way, using your freewill you decided to drive your car into theirs and killing them, how does that work, in the same way the above example about the cafe was given.
nor is their a full predistened system, because god is just he is aware of what you are going to do, he knows if you will fail or succed in this life. but would it be fair for god to put you in hell even if he knows your going to fail before you actually doing your bad actions?
god is just, he will punish you after you have commited a bad action, not beforehand.
god has provided us with hands, legs, eyes etc however he has given us the freewill to decide what we want to use them for.
neither are we predestined or have complete freewill, there is a justical balance, our lord is all knowing and all powerfull….
you decide
June 28th, 2007 at 3:32 am
Mohammed,
Here’s your claim about islam and embryology:
http://www.answering-islam.org/Quran/Science/embryo.html
If god hates it I guess he didn’t plan it now did he? so we have free will to divorce a wife chosen for us by god? kinda makes no sense.
And just to be clear: if God already knows that i’m gonna fail in today’s exam, how can any amount of studying and preperation change that? apparently I do not have freewill even in that matter.
June 27th, 2007 at 7:59 pm
Agony, it seems like we have miss-communcation between me and you, and I still didn’t get your question?, I don’t mean that it’s your fault, I might not smart enough to get what you mean.
About divorce I don’t really know, I can’t guess an asnwer if I don’t know it ( the only think I know about it, divorce is the most permissablt thing that God hate, so my thinkig about that it’s free will, but I don’t know and God knows better.
Answering Anderw, life is test, so if you know when you are dying, you will do what ever for 58 years and then lase 2 or 3 years stay repenting god, which doesn’t make sense.
Agony you didn’t comment that Quran explained how the baby form in his mom’s womb, do you think Muhammed was scinetest or it was just lucky guess from his part, and as I promised I have video on Utube to approve my words and from non Muslims scientest.
June 27th, 2007 at 7:52 pm
What I am trying to say is that you can not have an omniscient god and freewill at the same time.
If god knows the future and is never wrong then you can not choose to do anything contrary to his prediction.
June 27th, 2007 at 5:22 pm
@Mohammed,
Not evidence, a stream of logical arguments beginning with what we all agree on and ending with whatever you want to show would be nice.
I think I did mention the contradictions to you in another thread here, and specifically about the example you’re talking about. IIRC you just put your fingers in your ears and sang “na na na na na that guy said it’s right so it has to be”
Let me try to reform my question a bit: Your spouse(which god chose for you) turns out to be a stupid mother f***ing b**ch, who let a man have a quiet minute to pray, fast or go to Mekkah(for fear she might kill the children). Is god deliberately sending him to hell?
Also, is Divorce freewill or predetermined by god?
@shii’tte muslim,
Using a verse in the quran to prove the quran being right is circular logic and doesn’t work.
June 27th, 2007 at 1:22 pm
in the name of allah, the glorious the merciful
people,
@ agony
mohammed is right, the quran has no mistakes
“this book, there is no doubt in it, it is a gauide for those who gaurd against evil” (2:2)
this holy quran is a miracle,
@ andrew
u r tryin 2 say we dont have freewill? thats what i mean when i say there is a limit, we cant have complete freewill otherwise what u just said would be impossible because it would mean we choose our death place and time.
allah is so just that he has provided us with a balance of freewill. look at this life, how can anybody say this life is the final, this is a life which is used for us to make our moves either good or bad. without this life as a testing environment, allah allah uses our actions as evidence for putting us in hell or in heaven.
and a s for scientists, i didnt say they shouldnt use science (ie observing nature), i meant they should have used the quran as well.
this debate is purely for someone to express their opinions, for example earlier muhammed and muslim boy were comparing their differences, they aim is not to convert anyone, and btw the idea of islam being spread by the sword is outrageous, TRUE islam is a religion of peace. thats TRUE ISLAM, not what tehse terrorists are going around doing an dclaiming to be islam, if anything these terrorists are hypocrites and infact are doing the complete opposite of what true islam teaches.
thats y in modern society there is such few ppl who actually obey the rules of true islam and allah the all glorious and compasionate will reward them.
we have many choices, it is up to us what we believe in. allah is just, he will judge an individual based on their living conditions in this life. thats why allah is the best of judges, he is all knowing.
o my lord o allah, you are merciful yet mankind is unthankfull, protect us from evil,
you are the greatest of teh great.
June 27th, 2007 at 11:02 am
The simple question I would like you to answer, Mohammed, is how can someone have free will if the time of their death is already known? If Allah knows that they will die at exactly 4:32 pm on July 14th, 2014, then how can they truly be free to make choices that affect the outcome of their life?
June 26th, 2007 at 8:08 pm
Agony, how could I get him evidence, I talked about experience and things I have seen.
You assert that I shouldn’t compare between somebody born in a bad circumstances and somebody have a nice parents, and I’m telling you it doesn’t work that way, you are the who can change your life, you have a free will, God put you in test, to see if you are able to get out of it or not, and believe me all people get this test(circumstances) somehow.
So if your spouse is writting in the sky, that’s not just.
By the way Quran has no mistakes, Quran described accuratly how the baby form in his mom womb, and you can check the Quran and check the scintest descreption, and I can get you videos approving my word, and show you scientest approving the Quran description, and if you want the Ayah I will get it for you.
June 26th, 2007 at 7:56 pm
@Mohammed, do us all a favor and re-read what he said. You are merely repeating yourself.
@shii’tte muslim,
If scientist studied your Quran instead of observing how nature works we’d still be riding donkeys and doing prayers for rain. Seriously there are just so many mistakes in the quran I wonder how anybody can read it without seeing at last some!
And I always thought you either have free will or you don’t. is there something like “yeah you do have free will, but I have predetermined that whatever you chose your spouse will end up being ms.X, you have no free will in that matter”?
June 26th, 2007 at 6:43 pm
Arktis,
Just let Boris says what he wants, mostly I don’t care about what he says, the other thing he called me something I would like to be, if I understood him right.
I don’t my point is wrong, I think if somebody leave every thing to circumstances, and give up, there will be no hope.
NBA players, don’t forget that NBA player is graduated from college too, and if you notice most of them are good managers after finishing their career, they just used what they are good at, while the other they didn’t even bother to see what they are good at and go from there, the other keep crying and they didn’t fight, do you think it’s God fault, that they want to earn fast money.
I knew a lot of people had a horrible circumstances, but they were able to get out of it, because they didn’t keep crying that they discrminated against, and their father didn’t help them.
You can change your life and you have the choice to do it, is it god fault that you might be a friend for a bad person who drags you drug and etc.
June 26th, 2007 at 2:10 pm
i didnt get ur last post about the prophet saws and us being limited?
What is being debated at this current tym?
June 26th, 2007 at 2:08 pm
carrying on: … unable to see somthinhg does not means it does not exist’
June 26th, 2007 at 2:04 pm
in the name of allah, the merciful, the all compasionate
salam alaykom, brothers/sisters, it is very hard to argue if freewill exists if the opposing side of the arguement fails to acknowledge gods existence. at the moment, brother muhammed seems to be doing a good job.
we have been given freewill to use, however if we fail to control it the result of that freewill may have an affect on others. for example, the example set by brother andrew about the suicide bomber (i don’t think there was any need to call it an islamist extremist, extremist on its own would have been sufficient)and the people in the cafe.
the suicide bomber had the freewill to become a suicide bomber or to not become one. by choosing to do what he/she this, their freewill has resulted in the death of others.
if allah (swt) has provided us with freewill but at a limited level, if we had coomplete freewill then life itself would be impossible because humans have so much impact on each other, the world is not perfect, there is all sorts of bad things going on and it is vital we are patient and do our best to impress no other than God through good deeds and refraining from sin.
i mean look at today’s world, look at all the unjust people going without being properly punished, all the terrorists who are destroying lives and causing mayhem, and on top of that claiming it top be true islam!
oh allah, you are so merciful, yet we humans are so ignorant and unthankful.
“most surely man is ungrateful to his lord (allah)” (100:6)
people have come up with many theories to try and develop the idea that god was not the creator. remember these are only theories, they cannot ever become fact without proper evidence like for instance the holy quran.
how amazing the holy quran is, prophet musa (pbuh) had his miracles as well as prophet issa (pbuh), but the holy quran was one of the miracles of allah who revealed it to muhammed (saw). no one could change the holy quran, from the beggining till now not one word has changed from this glorious book that just by reading it or listning to its recitation you feel spirtitually elavated.
this is not only a book that clarifies god’;s existance but also look how it informs us about science. if scientists had bothered studying this holy book, they may have had the results much earlier. this is a book of glory, if we follow it we shall be successfull.
may allah have mercy upon us all
i remember someone asking that why would we believe the word of the prophet (saww). here we go back to the point were us humans are limited, were we must see something in order to believe in it. just because we were
June 26th, 2007 at 3:58 am
…and can not, since it would be IMPOSSIBLE for anymore than a few.
Also, is name calling really the best thing, boris?
June 26th, 2007 at 3:56 am
Not only that, for most of them, basketball was the only way out. It only stands to reason that some of them would make it, but obviously the vast majority do not.
June 26th, 2007 at 2:23 am
@mohamed
we all know NBA players are not exactly prone to drug use, crime, and other sorts of anti-social behaviour. way to argue, haji.
June 26th, 2007 at 1:38 am
Please, clearly demonstrate a logical path from a to b, otherwise you aren’t actually making an argument. You are simply making an assertion, which is probably best understood as an opinion not backed up by rational thought, or at least not demonstrating rational thought.
I know you posses intelligence and you CAN do it if you try. It’s just that I don’t think you are grasping the difference between how you are communicating and what is practical (good in and/or for practice; in application, applicable to reality, or logical).
I’m sorry if this sounds mean.
June 26th, 2007 at 1:18 am
That’s the difference between somebody who believs and somebody who don’t, if you believe, you know it’s test, you can’t give up, that’s what Muslims is about, you get test after one, and you say thank God.
I really don’t believe in psycology, it doesn’t explain alot, it’s just way to explain behavior, which is not accurate most of the time.
You can see a lot of NBA players, raised in bad cirumstances, but they were able to make it through, they didn’t cry, they worked hard to reach where they are now.
And you see alot of rich well raised people coming from a good family, and they fall for drugs.
One more thing, I’ve seen alot of people who went crazy with no reason, and yet psycology has now asnwer for it.
I’m not against scince, I just against some of it, and it turn out to be the Psycology and Evolution is explaination for man creation(theories).
June 26th, 2007 at 12:40 am
You guys are just arguing nature vs. nurture, except Mohamed seems to think that nature is by choice, for which there is little to no evidence. You’re born with a basic set of instructions that forms who and what you are; you can’t chose this, you’re just born with it. After that, pretty much everything else is decided by environment. There is very little, if any, free will.
On the other hand, I would like to think my resistance to “the ways of the world” is not merely genetic or learned from my parents or a combination of the two. Still, that doesn’t mean it is true, but I honestly would like to think it is a result of conscious choices based on somewhat reasonable evaluations - evaluations, I might add, which I was afforded the luxury of by my environment, despite the gripes I’ve had with it over the years.
Free will? Not likely, but if true, is minuscule compared to the sheer magnitude of predetermination. We do after all, live in a universe governed by the linear laws of cause and effect.
Mohamed, I think you are ignoring this in your assertion that hard times are ultimately tests that we can decide to pass or fail. Surely in many cases, such an attitude would be beneficial, but in the long term it is better to face the cold facts of reality or else face further suffering due to not dealing with the problems you face in a more rational manner.
June 25th, 2007 at 11:59 pm
Are you trying to tell me that the way a child was raised does NOT affect his personality?
You sir are contradicting basic psychology.
June 25th, 2007 at 6:15 pm
Every humanbeing has a hard times sometimes and face a lot of tests, you always has brain and mind to think about it.
You can choose your fate, either cry and blame everybody, or take the test and go through it and be a better person.
It’s easier to blame circumstances than go through it.
June 25th, 2007 at 2:51 am
@Muslim Boy,
Don’t worry we’re all more or less kids here.
@Muslim Boy, Mohammed,
Let’s take this scenario:
A child is born in an urban area, drugs, crime, even murder are things he sees everyday. That kid has a much higher probability to become a criminal than kid that was raised in a proper family, went to a nice school and watched the nice cartoons in his free time.
They certainly both do have free will, but some are more free than others. How does god’s perfectly free will hold up against such situations?
you can take other examples such as a family where his parents abused him, doesn’t affect my question.
June 24th, 2007 at 1:44 pm
Thank Muslims boy for debating, it was honor to debate with you.
June 24th, 2007 at 12:04 pm
Omniscience can not logically coexist with free will. If God already knows what will happen, then it is impossible to choose differently than what God predicts.
There is a simple magic trick to show how this works. The magician asks you to pick a card out of what appears the be a standard deck of playing cards and put in in your pocket. You pick the 3♣. He then hands you a sealed envelope with a piece of paper inside. You open the envelope and it reads, “The card in your pocket is the 3♣. You appear to have free will, because you were allowed to choose your card. However, the deck wasn’t a standard deck — all the cards in it were the same card. That is the way that the magician knew with 100% certainty what your card was when he wrote the letter and sealed in in the envelope.
An omniscient God is like that magician. We have the illusion that we are making our own choices, but our choices have already been made for us by the very fact that God already knows the answer.
But there is an answer to this. Believe that God is near-omniscient. If God were very, very good at statistics he would be able to PREDICT our behavior with uncanny accuracy without KNOWING it.
The magician this time has a much larger deck of cards. Ten billion cards, in fact. All but one are the 3♣, the other is an A♥. The magician will hand you the same envelope. He is know longer 100% certain, but will only be wrong 1 time in 10 billion. There is a very strong chance he will never be wrong in your lifetime or even in hundreds of lifetimes. And when he is wrong, his agent can just sweep it under the carpet.
A God that is very, very good at statistics and very experienced can seem omniscient without giving up free will. Of course, this is heresy in all the Abrahamic religious (except some extreme offshoots).
June 24th, 2007 at 11:31 am
“IN THE NAME OF ALLAH, THE BENEFICENT, THE ALL COMPASIONATE”
Salam alaykom dear brothers and sisters,
@ agony,
its nice to see that you have asked this question as it is a very good one,
from a muslim point of veiw, allah (swt), has not predestined our fate, as he is all knowing he is aware of our future actions but has given us the freewill of choosing what it is. if thisn was not true, then this life would be pointless as we would not be able to control our moves and on the day of judgement god would be punishing us for something that was out of our control and hence would neither be merciful of just of him.
the exammple you gave about the man and the moslem lady, he still had the freewill to not convert, but he made his decision to convert. i hate it when people say that islam was spread by the sword that is WRONG. not once has the word sword neither how to use it been used in the holy quran. islam is a religion supporting peace and justice, those islamic extremist aka terroruists are hypocrites and are damaging true islam.
brother agony, im sorry if i can not offer more, i really appreciate your time in posing these questions, but im only a kid im limited in providing an answer, if you want you can listen to lectures and read books about the subjects from different veiwpoints. (hassanain rajabali is a good example of a lecturer, hes very good)
i hope my lord allah (swt), can provide you with the answers you need through his infinate mercy,
and as for you brother muhammed it has also been a pleasure debating with you,
mashala you both are intelligent people and may allah bless you all.
June 24th, 2007 at 10:56 am
I got what you mean now, it’s really good point and I had this question for some Muslims about this issue I think from 10 years ago, I really didn’t get clear answer, which because the people that I asked, actually didn’t know a lot about Islam, I’m really happy you asked me this question, because that’s something I want to know too. Right now I don’t have an answer for it, which means that I don’t know.
The only thing that I know is God is merciful, and he knows who know about Islam and who didn’t, and God will judge everybody with just and I think that 9/11 might hurt Muslims as individuals, but I think it served Islam big deal, because as you said alot of people didn’t know about Islam, so after 9/11 they tried to read and know about Islam, and some of those found that Islam is different than the media shows up, and they converted.
I think everbody knows about Islam now, but I still search for answer for your question and I hope I find tha answer soon.
June 24th, 2007 at 5:29 am
@Mohammed,
That’s simply not what I meant.
Take a man who spent his life not knowing much about islam, but he met and fell in love and married a woman who so happened to be a moslem, and showed him the truth about islam. I say him marrying that particular woman made him convert(not FOR the woman, but because she showed him - as you’d call it - the light).
So how exactly does free will stack up against that?
(I could make the same argument about money: someone who has more than enough money might get an internet connection and talk to Mohammed on religious freaks, or buy a book about islam, someone who doesn’t won’t spend the money on something like this and thus die ignorant of the “true” religion)
June 23rd, 2007 at 7:08 pm
To follow religion is to really believe in it, if somebody converts because of his spouse, that’s not believing, they called hypocracy.
That’s why Islam doesn’t enocurage oppression in religion, bcause we don’t hypocrate in our religion, being Muslim is devote your self to good, some people say we are Muslims, but only God know what they have inside( still free will).
June 23rd, 2007 at 5:18 pm
@Mohammed,
Yes indeed. That is an answer to my question, but I would like to ask another question:
Some people convert to a certain religion because of the person they marry. If marriage is already pre-decided, doesn’t that kind of affect his free will(his choice) ?
June 23rd, 2007 at 4:30 pm
Mohammed, you keep saying it’s “Our” fault that the palastinians and isrealites are killing themselves and eachother. Just out of curiosity, what do you want done about it?
Also, I second Andrew’s question about free choice, your view is self-contradictory.
June 23rd, 2007 at 1:38 pm
Let’s set a scene: In an outdoor cafe in London, a group of 20 men, women, and children are eating lunch. A radical Islamic suicide bomber drives a car into the middle of the cafe and detonates a vest bomb.
According to Mohamed, the time and place of these 21 people’s deaths is predetermined, yet they all had free will. If the bomber had not chosen to become a bomber (thus going against Mohamed’s idea of true Islam), he somehow would have still ended up at the cafe and all 21 people would have still died at the exact same moment.
Let’s go to a larger scale. Hiroshima. If no scientists in the world had chosen to study the atom, all of the residents of Hiroshima would still have died simultaneously. How could this be possible? Perhaps a great flood or earthquake? Not only that, but all of the scientists who had chosen different paths in life would have married the same people, and made the same amount of money, regardless of what choices they made.
Mohamed, I can’t accept a definition of free will that fixes your name, marriage, salary, and time of death. Those are 4 huge aspects of anyone’s life. Why bother going to work, or out to meet people, or maintaining your health, if nothing you do will change your predetermined salary or spouse or death?
Why bother manufacturing air bags, safety belts, fire extinguishers, hard hats, medicine, vaccinations, or any other “life saving” device when Allah has predetermined when you will die? No life saving device can stop it.
June 23rd, 2007 at 11:52 am
We believe in free will when it comes to choices, if you want to be Muslims or Christian or another, that’s your free will, we believe that if you are going to be a king or president, that’s written before you even born, the other thing that is written is when you are going to be born, and even your name is written and the money you will make, your marriage, and the time and the place you are going to die at, other than that every thing is choice, you want to go drink that’s your choice, you want to go gamble that’s your choice.
Our prophet told Muslims that at one point they are going to be weak and in state of ignorance like you say, so they aske him why, is it because we are going to be a few in the world, he said “no, there will be so many Muslims, but they are not heard, they are like foam on the water surface, if you blow this foam, it will go away”
I hope that answers your question.
June 23rd, 2007 at 5:07 am
Guess my question got lost again in all the talk here(weird how I always need to post a question 3+ times to get an answer out of Mohammed)
@Mohammed,
you said:
Muslims believe a God will, if Abu Baker and Omar and Ottman wan meant to be the first Caliphs, that wouldn’t happen with out God will and his destiny, nobody would chang that, and you should know better.
My question: I thought we have free will, and can make the right or wrong choice, so perhaps Abu-Baker, Omar and Otman were just some wrong choices made by HUMANS.
An additional question: Are you saying that bin-laden, terrorists, 9/11, israel’s war with lebanon, both world wars and the current state of ignorance in which all(or close enough) moslem countries live is also part of god’s supposed “destiny” for us?
@Muslim boy, could you give an answer to the above questions from your perspective? it’s way easier to get answers from you than from Mohammed. Thank you very much for your help so far I learned a lot.
June 22nd, 2007 at 6:23 pm
Are you ready for the answer, are you going to do what I tell you?
Are you going to listen to what I want you to get the answer.
Proof of truth, do you know that sometimes watch Fox news, furthermore I watch the stupid Bill orielly, and even sometimes I agree with some points of his( weried Huh), I could listen to what ever you can think of.
Even my wife is getting angry that I watch this people, and my answer always is that I like to see how people view and how they like to twist the truth.
We didn’t start murder any body, the plastenian getting murderd for 80 years now on the world watch, and what did you do about, you still crying about the hollacust and yet you don’t even bother about the Jews doing to Palestine.
Want to watch news, and I’m not going to tell you watch Eljazeera, I’m not going to let you go that far, just watch the BBC, and you will different kind of news, thing that you didn’t hear of.
When you say Muslis start to kill people, you stereo type the whole Muslims, I didn’t kill anybody and I have no intention to kill an animal even, there is big differnece what they Islam say and what the Muslims do.
June 22nd, 2007 at 5:07 pm
Alcari - Exactly. The pointless, self-congratulatory glass bead game being played on here by non-Muslims would be harmless if it were not that so many Muslims want to kill all the rest of us. You read about the recent PEW poll of Muslims in the US that revealed that over 100,000 young Muslims in the USA believe terrorist murder is acceptable. Think about it. 9/11 was carried out by 19 men.
And, yes, the Queen knighted Salman Rushdie and it is being construed as nothing more than a declaration of war on Islam. So thousands of people will riot all weekend, people who are mostly illiterate even in their native languages and thus have never even read the book! But be assured people must (in their opinion) and will die because Islam has been insulted.
Don’t Muslims understand none of us ever cared enough about Islam to bother with it until they started murdering everyone in sight.
I just can’t leave all the words to them and the moral equivalency crowd which is so well represented on this board. You know, those people who seem to actually believe that Christianity and Islam are equally bad. I am not a Christian, by the way, or a Jew or a follower of any religion.
For the record, I am a 60 year old life-long Democrat who does watch Fox News (the Sunday news panel show)and other conservative news shows as well as ABC News (liberal), The News Hour with Jim Lehrer, Washington Week with Gwen Ifill, and Now - all on PBS, considered the most liberal media outlet in the nation. I also read a wide range of political publications from far right to far left with many stops in between. I read jihadwatch.com and CAIR.com as well as other pro-Islamic sites and anti-Islamic sites. Can Mo say the same? And I opposed the invastion of Iraq as illegal and unnecessary.
June 22nd, 2007 at 2:12 pm
Salman rushdie was knighted? Allright!
Proof, That’s exactly how I feel about it, I would have written the same, but i’ve given up on mohamed and this whole pointless discussion here.
June 22nd, 2007 at 1:54 pm
Agony wrote:
And I still wonder if mohammed will ever answer me…
No, of course not. Not if you asked anything of substance that was based on a fact that contradicted the idea that Islam is the most enlightened view of life there is.
And notice how predictable he (Mohammed) once again reveals himself to be. It’s the USA and the Jews that are causing the Muslims to pull the trigger. It’s the Jews and the USA who are making adults who will never risk their lives (bin Laden for example and his lieutenants)convince children (babies even) that their highest destiny is to commit suicide in the course of murdering as many people as possible. And instead of addressing the very real problems that Islam causes for everyone, its adherents as well as it victims, he is fighting a 1400 year old battle with Muslim Boy - who by the way also sidestepped the issue of the anti-Jewish racism built into Islam and the blaming of Muslim crimes on anybody but Muslims.
This is a person who has revealed that he believes semen comes from the backbone, that Islam did not spread by the sword and ended “slavery” wherever it went(news to all the people they killed and enslaved as they conquered North Africa and Southern Spain and tried repeatedly to invade the rest of Europe - all hundreds of years before the first crusade by the way), who believes that any one who points out what Muslimns are verifiably doing all over the world is a merely a racist who watches too much Fox News because it shouldn’t be the brutal murders committed by Muslims that has non-Muslims worried - after all if the Jews and the USA would just stop making Muslims murder people everything would be OK. You know all those Jews in Thailand who are making Muslims murder Buddhists, for example. Or all those Phillipino Jews who are making Muslims murder non-Muslims in the Phillipines. Or all those Jews and other Americans who are making Muslims murder Jews and other Americans. Is it that Muslims are so feeble and brain-dead that they can be worked like puppets by apes and pigs?
Anyone want to place bets on how many people will be dead on Monday morning because Salman Rushdie was knighted? I’m certain we’ll see a higher than usual death toll from Muslim hurt feelings over the weekend. And why shouldn’t people die? After all, Islam was insulted - by Jews (aka in the Koran “pigs and apes”) and Americans and the British.
Go to CAIR.com and see what they think is important: The savage oppression and discrimination that American Muslims suffer: spraypaint! words! Ham sandwiches! O, the horror.
Though there are probably Muslims who have found a way through the minefield of their religion to emerge as decent people (maybe even thousands of them), the fact remains that unreformed Islam is odious in concept and most of its expression.
June 22nd, 2007 at 1:54 pm
“IN THE NAME OF ALLAH THE MERCIFUL THE COMPASIONATE”
Salam alaykom dear brothers and sisters,
first of all, we had no other choice, live under saddam’s rule and get tortured for being shias, or let the americans get rid of him. as a result now terrorists are using it as an opurtunity to terrorize the country, butcher innocent women, children and men in an attempt to trigger civil war between the shias and sunnis.
i have nothing against the sunna, how do i know theya re not better muslims than my self? but religion is only the outer case, i hate to admit it but there are even athiests who have better akhlaq and have better respect than us muslims do for each other.
and you obviously don’t know the real story behind the tragedy of karbala, i know that the jews suffered and it was wrong what happened to them is different in comparison to what happened to hussain. they didn’t have the choice of living. that is what happened with the will of allah, another example of allah doing something not beniting them but is still mercy, because it could have been worse. if there was no pain or suffereing then we would already be in heaven, there would be no need for an afterlife.
any way, hussyn, had the choice of doing wrong and giving alliance to yazid and living, but instead he defended the word of muhammed (saw), preserving the true islam, hussayn gave his soul and his head (just to remind you that yazid had the heads of the shuhada (martyrs), on spears) rather than give in to an unjust man.
you ask why we mourn over our beloved hussayn, hussayns aim was to show us the true islam, his aim was not for us to bleed like the above images, that is people doing what they want not representing all the shias.
if we do not remember what happened to hussayn, then the tragedy will be forgotten. if my ancestors had not remembered, then i may have not found out the true story or mabye not know hussayn was at all. how do you expect to understand hussayn’s sacrifice, if you do not even know who yazid was. if it wasn’t for uthman, than yazid would not be in power, going back to the point were ali (as) should have had the calipha, how do u think i must feel when i hear a lady say that hussayn was fighting for the calipha!!!!!
don’t you think its my duty to spread the truth of what happened at karbala, you do not know how opressed hussayn and his followers were, even after hussayns death, the captives were dragged to damascuc in front of yazid (may allah’s cursings be upon him), when yazid saw the head of hussayn, a noble and honarable man who was spreading the truth, he accpted it as revenge aginst the holy prophet (saw) for killing his foprefathers.
if hussayn’s tragedy is not remembered then what would be the point of it happening, why didn’t hussayn just give in and let us turn corrupt? i want our future generation to know what i know. not treat it as a history lesson, this person the grandson of our blessed prophet (saww), slaughtered and crushed? people have converted to islam after understanding this story, even non-muslims have cried over this opressed figure, islam is not just pray and fast, its to prohibit bad and encourage good.
“it would hurt Islam and he tries to promote to it, and I think you about to join him soon.”
who are you to say that, all i am saying is the calipha was stolen, and u know it. since when was ubu bakr, uthman or umar entitled to the claipha. ali outshone them all with his qualities. even when they were caliphs, he showed them respect and protection. yet look at the way they treated him when he should have been caliph, burn his house and kill fatima.
why do some wish to twist and turn the truth,
and say fatima died in her blossoming youth,
why is the grave of fatima concealed for in her praise surat al-kuather was revealed,
look at the prophet’s ahlulbayt, sinless, pious and opressed. you call what ubu bakr and umar and uthamn represented true islam?
why do keep not answering my questions?
why was thecalipha stolen, why was muhammeds command ignored, the reasonali never fought back was because he was patient and merciful unlike your caliphs. who started as kufar and converted to islam with muhammeds presence.
look how close ali was to muhmmed, ali was the reason the muslims were victorious at khaybar when they defeated the jews, ali was the only brave man to stand up to ‘wahshi’ who had the reputation of being one of the strongest in arabia, where where umar ububakr and uthamn. were they cowards to stand up when the prophet called. who was the first man to embrace islam, ALI (as), and at teh age of 7. while ur caliphs mocked the holy prophet and laughed.
where is ur proof that ur calipjhs should have been first, ali was chosen by the prophet, don’t make me repeat the sentence, read what i wrote before.
u say ali didnt care that he was chosen as caliph, ur talking about the calipha as if it were a business
“what Abu Baker(he was rich), and Omar( he use to wear batched garment), and Ottman ( he was rich too), and they all died with no money left to them get out of being caliphs.”
then why did they steal the calipaha? answer that, did muhammed say and i base what i say on rational and logic.
i know allah is wise, but what he makes happen does not necceraly mean that it beniting man kind. for example, if everything allah did from our eyes was not causing harm or suffereing, then what is the point of life, it would be heaven, no stealing, no killing, no arguewing everyone would be following one way of life.
the whole idea of this life is to seperate the good from the bad in the hereafter (refer to the last verse i stated).
allah made umar and the rest caliphs to test our loyalty. would we be hypocrites and go aginst muhammed’s word? u think ali and even muhammed were not aware the calipha would be stolen? but thats why they were high figures in islam, because they had the quality of patience.
brother, my aim is to give u facts and for u to analyse them. i can offer no more i’m only a kid. its up to u to make judgements, imagine u were not born a sunni, would u still be defending that faith?
thats why its illogical to just be accepting what we are born with, obviously i understand that isalm is logical, i was born a muslim but i want to be a muslim by nature and not just by name. as hard as it may be, understand who hussayn was and why he did what he did, not just from the sunni school of thought but in comparson to the shia school of thought…
i hope what i have offered has helped, inshala allah (swt) will have mercy upon us all and forgive our sins, on the day of judgement when we rise, imagine how happy we must be if we had been good peopel in this life.
“Surely for those who gaurd aginst evil (pious) is achievment”(78:31)
allah has provide d us with freewill, he is aware of our future but has not predestined our future.
for example, your school of thought believe that allah can put a bad person in heaven and a good person in hell and that would still be the right thing and no one can say anything…
we believe in the same but we believe he is soo just that he WOULD NOT do it out of his justice.this is reffering to the hearafter.
what you believe is similar to what u are saying about the calipha, that because it happened it must be good because allah only does good things in this world.
allah did it and he knew they didnt deserve it, but he is testing our loyalty. just for ur information, in the past a high proportion of egypt was shia (hence the fatimiyas), but afterwards a sunni government made strickt laws against the shias and therefore forced the shia population to decrease.
i will defend the name of ali (as), until my dwath (hopefully…). this life is finate. we should use it as a ladder to do good in order to have a good infinate herafter.
may allah bless u all…
June 22nd, 2007 at 12:34 pm
And I still wonder if mohammed will ever answer me…
June 21st, 2007 at 9:46 pm
Muslim Boy,
You agreed with proof not truth, and it’s ok, the fellow Muslims kill fellows Muslims because they are stupids falling for American and Israeli plans so easy, and let me remind you with something, who brought USA to Iraq, was it Sunni or Shii, you will tell because Sadam with a stupid person which I gree with, but Sadam was using American weapons to kill your people.
There is no way that I’m comparing Hussien to the Jews, I comparing between the way you keep crying.
Agony knows better than me, I never denied that, he might knows better than me in things that he care about, the things that he knows it would hurt Islam and he tries to promote to it, and I think you about to join him soon.
I didn’t know about Shitt till I came to USA, I never heard about the Shii before, all I heard of my father that the Iraq people are doomed because what they did to Ali, and I didn’t understand what is he refering to.
I’m not against you or your faith, I only know logic, and you said that was god will, so as you know God is wise and he had a reason for it, and I don’t know if the Haddith you keep telling is weak or strong, all I know that there is logic, if you think about it, you will see how good was Abu Baker and Omar and Ottman.
Still one question for you to answer, what Abu Baker(he was rich), and Omar( he use to wear batched garment), and Ottman ( he was rich too), and they all died with no money left to them get out of being caliphs.
June 21st, 2007 at 2:08 pm
“IN THE NAME OF ALLAH, THE MERCIFUL AND COMPASIONATE”
Salam alaykom,
before i begin i would like to thank for ‘proofnottruth’ for making the point “your fellow Muslims who are butchering your fellow Muslims”
that is soo true, for example take modern day iraq, the extremists are going around beheading the shias and terrorising their lives…. (and don’t anyone dare call that a lie, coz i know that for a fact…)
for my second point @ muhammed…
why do us shias mourn over the death of al-hussain (as)?
i’ll tell u why, for one thing u obviously don’t understand what a major sacrifice was made by hussain (as), he gave his soul and life in order to keep u on the right track… hussain’s sacrifice had a purpose, what was it? oh yh to make sure we follow true islam.
mourning is not just remembering our beloved hussain (as), it has a spiritual effecrt as welll, TO REMEMBER HIS SACRIFICE, HENCE REMEMBER ITS PURPOSE!!!!!!
if we forgot about hussain’s sacrifice than i promise u slowly it won’t seem as a sacrifice at all but instead a battle.
i know a couple of people my self who hav converted to islam and even converted to shias from sunnis, why because of hussayns sacrifice and seeing us remember his death. every yr we remeber this heroic figure.
you are comparing the holocaust with the tragedy of karbala? i know thet the holocaust was terrible and it should not have happened, but those who suffered, did they suffer like hussayn? did they have the choice of living and dieing? would they be considered martyrs like hussayn? NO NO NO.
what you seem to be wishing to do, is to cover up what happened. if do not remember the sacrifice then we will (or our future generation will) forget, and may even think of islam differently.
also it seems our freind ‘agony’ knows a bit about islam more than u may do. allah (swt) has provided us with freewill, he has NOT predestined us otherwise there would be no point in life. he is AWARE of our destiny but has given us freewill to do as we wish, to do right or wrong.
who am i to crititisiz eabu bakr and othman and umar? i am nobody, but let me tell you somthing? why did they steal the calipha? why did thety go against the prophets command? does this not represent them as hypocritical and as traiters to the prophet?
if someone is good, then it does not neccessery mean they will be good for the rest of their lives. they were KAFIRS at one point in their lives then became extremely good people, and then became greedy and decided to elect a caliph among themselves rather than stick to the prophets command. so u believe that just because allah (swt) did not give ali the calipha it means he wasnt entitled to it. wrong.
this is exactly the purpose of life. so that allah will see who will stick by the orders of his prophet and stick to true islam rather than do what they want.
i know allah made the caliphs caliphs, because if he didnt it would not have happened. every thing taken place is with allah s (swt), power and order. evn the bad stuff.
basically, by saying that umar and the others were the caliphs you are denying the fact that allah is making the bad things happen in today’s world. you are missing the point, this whole arguement is a waste of my time, because i have told you that the prophet chose ali by allah’s (swt) order, it is a fact, proven with our hadiths and yours.
STOP denying it ok? you cant admit that abu bakr and uthman and umar stole the calipha. muhammed is a wise man he would not leave the islamic ummah unguided and in a situation of confusion.
you can not call what i say a lie, us humans are limited in our intellect, if we can not visualize somthing or see it, we will not believe in it. after the event of ghadir, many people including ur so called ‘caliphs’ congratulated ali (as), but thats what allah wanted, ali may have been opressed but we will defend his name. i don’t blame u, i am assuming u were born into a sunni family, hence u were nertured into believing what u do. imagine u were born into a different faith? would u have been intelligent enough to explore and find out the truth?
this is so ironic, the way how people (im not saying u), are born into a faith and then are narrow minded and think that everyone else is stupid and wrong because of what they believe differs to theirs. thats why there is no peace on earth, people arguing about who is right and who isn’t, we need religious harmony.
“There is no compulsion in religion, truly the right way has clearly became distinct from error; therefore, whoever disbelieves in shaitan and believes in allah he has indeed laid hold on the firmest handle…’ (2:256)
brother muhammed, read over what i have written, i respect u and your veiws but you must understand the true tragedy of karbala and that it was done for us to remember, why is it the family of the prophet were so opressed and the shias are still today?
just because the prophet left does it mean allah (swt) does not exist? we believe the family of the prophet should have become caliphs because of their wisdom and intellect. their qualities with no doubt outshined the others, ali was picked and deserved the calipah first, if he had it first, then he could choose his successor, hassan (as), but no muawia had to steal the calipha once agin, and then yazid and so on. these people were not muslims, just hypocrites…
look at this, the sunnis have buried ubu bakr, uthman and umar next to our blessed prophet (saww), but they refused to bury his grandchildren (imams), look at were hassan, al-sajad, al-baqir, al sadiq (as) are buried?
there graves are worse than many muslim ones today. infact when hussayn (as) carried his brother hassan (as), to be buried next to his grandfather (saw), aisha ordered not for it to happen and ordered arrows to be fired at the body of our beloved imam (as). hussain (as) could easily taken them all out, but he had patience and compasion, something ur so called caliphs lacked! because they were traiters.
and u ask why sdo you shia mourn over something that happened in the past!!!
look at how opressed we have been? how we are treated, and even by some considered kufar? look at our historical figures who all died martrs. this is the islam our prophet introduced, what good would it have been if in the future it turned corrupt? it was the duties of our imams to preserve it because only they could. not anyone else, our imams were sinless, pious (mumins) from their childhood to their deaths…
may allah bless u brother…
June 21st, 2007 at 12:41 pm
I’m sorry - I vowed not to post here again, but I cannot let this stand unremarked upon:
Mohammed wrote:
you are like Jews crying about the Hollacust.
Would those be the same Jews taking in your fellow Muslims in Gaza who have been shot and otherwise wounded by your fellow Muslims in Gaza because your fellow Muslims in the rest of the region will not take them in? Would you be talking about those Jews? The same Jews that your fellow Muslims who have not been wounded are begging to take them in to protect them from your fellow Muslims who are butchering your fellow Muslims? All the while, of course, insisting that that the murders of your fellow Muslims by your fellow Muslims is the fault of the Jews and the USA? Your fellow Muslims are begging for sanctuary from a nation they have vowed to destroy. That’s a very pretty picture of your fellow Muslims, eh?
Why do you people even talk with this obvious ignoramoous and bigot?
June 21st, 2007 at 4:37 am
@Mohammed,
I thought humans had free will and they can control their own destiny(and f**k themselves up in the process) according to islam…
Care to make yourself more clear on that point?
June 20th, 2007 at 8:32 pm
I just have one question for you, do you believe in God’s destiny?, because you contradict what Muslims believe in.
Muslims believe a God will, if Abu Baker and Omar and Ottman wan meant to be the first Caliphs, that wouldn’t happen with out God will and his destiny, nobody would chang that, and you should know better.
You are telling me that I’m contradicting my self because I show Ali is mercifull and just, when did you hear me saying something against that, I love may be more than you do, all I want to know why Shitt crying about it, you are like Jews crying about the Hollacust.
It’s over and God will prevailed and you should look for future instead of crying about it.
The other thing who are you to critisize Omar ot Abu Baker, these people helped Muhammed big deal, and he promised them heaven like Ali, and there is no difference between any of them.
Tell me one thing, Ottman was know that was he so rich, how much money did he have when he died, what the calipha added to them.
June 20th, 2007 at 3:18 pm
“IN THE ANME OF ALLAH, THE MESRCIFUL AND MOST COMPASIONATE”
Salam alaykom to u all,
brother muhammed….
same story about uthman? the only sacrifice uthamn made was to stael the clipha. and infact u just contradicted urself, u highlighted ali (as) justice and compasion, even when the calipha was stolen from him he showed the qualities of the holy prophet (saww) and defended a man who had gone against muhammed’s (saww) command.
answer this question: why don’t you agree with the hadith of ghadir khum where ali was was chosen by muhammed to succed even when it ti in your hadith books as well.
and yazid, do you not accept he was a bad person, let me tell you who put him in power….
uthman placed family members across the islamic empire dispite their lack of islamic qualities (something ali (as) did not do because of his justice when he FINALLY became caliph), therefore instead of acknowliging Ali (as) as the caliph, muwia wanted the power for himself. at this point the ummayids formed. muawia had signed a peace treaty that hassan (as) would succed, now lets see who took over YAZID (may allah’s cursings be upon him).
throughout their lives the ahlulbayt have been opreesed by these hypocrital muslims (muawia, yazid ect). at what point did umar, abu bakr or uthman have the right to take the calipaha. stop denying it, ali was elected because of his fair ways. he was a muslim befor ethe others, he was a muslim at the time where it was hardest where muhammed was critisized and abused.
and u r trying to say umar and the other so called caliphs had the same justical qualities? i dont think so…i hate to say it but if u told any1 the full story it , these people would be seen as unfaithful to our prophet turning against him after his death…
may allah bless u…
June 19th, 2007 at 10:21 am
Wait, Muslim boy, are you saying there is a god because of causality, even though said god breaks those very same laws? Doesn’t that sound a bit odd?
Also, Morality can exist just fine without religion, just look at animals, who seem to be getting along just fine without going to church. I’m as atheist as they come, and I know right from wrong, by the fact that “What you do not wish upon yourself, extend not to others.” *
*That’s confusius by the way, not jesus
June 18th, 2007 at 10:12 pm
You can apply the same story about Ottman too, my point here, I know Hussyen is a good man, and he is better than me and you and Yazid, I just don’t know why is the mourning, he died for a reason, and he served this reason, and he is in heaven in shaa Allah.
In Egypt we have a huge( and might be the most famous) by the Hussien name, we don’t have one with the Yazid name. Why do you think that, becuase we appreciate El Hussien and we know how honroble man he is.
Omar and Ottman were killed, and Ottman almost died the same way like Hussien, they seige him and at the end they killed him, even Ali was trying to defend him, just if you think Ali was mad because he is not the caliph, and Ali was ready to fight who killed Ottman, and Ottman refused fighting, so the Muslims don’t fight against each other.
But the difference here that we don’t keep crying about it, it was God destiny, and it happend for a reason, or don’t you believe in God destiny?
June 18th, 2007 at 8:10 pm
Religion is stupid
June 18th, 2007 at 7:30 am
“IN THE NAME OF ALLAH, THE MOST MERCIFUL AND COMPASIONATE”
Dear brothers and sisters,
@ mohamed…
you don’t know who yazid was? ‘agony’ is right. yazid is the son of mu’awia, who many of the ahlul sunnah put ahead of hussayn. there is no doubt that yazid was an evil man. therefore do not make statements and judgements about the images above if you don’t even know the true story behind the tragedy of karbala. research it for god’s sake. and when you research, don’t just research the sunni point of veiw, because 9/10 of the time, the veiw will be biased and will elevate yazid’s true identity. yazid wanted the shia dead-STRAIT.
it was because of him that hussayn had to make the sacrifice he did. hussayn made the sacrifice in order to preserve the true islam that muhammed (saww) taught. yazid however was against this. he was an unjust man who would drink, gamble, kill innocent people and on top of that suggested his ruling was the true islam.
if you do not know what an evil man yazid was then how an earth do you claim to understand hussayn (as)’s sacrifice?
hussayn gave his head rather than give alliance to an unjust man.
people ask why us shias mourn over our beloved hussaym. you would understand why if you knew the tragedy. the torture and oppression us shais have had to go through. why? because we want to follow the true islam, the islam set by muhammed, and who better to continue to teach it you tell me : yazid or huusay.
once again the calipha stolen by the ummayids from the ahlulbayt. learn my dearfreind, about what really happened, this tragedy which lead to the martydom of hussayn cannot be explained breifly.
this person hussayn, who the prophet would hug and kiss and praise is slaughtered by yazid’s army to gain revenge from the holy prophet who had killed their forefathers because they were kufar.
just imagine, hussayn and this camp (women, children), had their water supply cut and were dieing of thirst. hussayn with his brave men (an army of 72) faced and army of hundreds if not thousands. the men had their heads cut off and place d on spears while these ummayids thought they had won a great victory. hussayn lost the battle but won the war. his aim was to show us the true islam was not yazid’s version. and hussayn succeded, today in our millions us shias if not most of the islamic ummah, remember the tragedy that hussain faced in order to preserve the true islam.
June 18th, 2007 at 5:38 am
@Mohammed,
I always supposed he meant Yazid Ben Moa’awia, the 6th caliph if I remember correctly.
@Muslim Boy,
Will try to read your link ASAP(why does everybody like to provide me links to read? anybody willing to sell me a second brain? I might need one)
1. Evolution, we got a nice article about it. perhaps you should check it(and no, chance doesn’t cut it)
2. What? Who exactly wrote that? It sounds like someone saying “all gays are just gay because they couldn’t get along with women. They DO like women, but they have trouble getting them”(a typical straight-anti-gay speech) Well, I am 100% atheist, and I dare you to provide some sort of evidence that I(or anybody else on this forum) am lying.
3. There was an article about the evolution of morals on this site some time ago too.
4. So god is the ultimate cause? funny, why not say something else was that ultimate cause if you need one? you got the big bang, quantum physics, string theory, alternate universes… just chose one, they are all as rational as God(to me at least) if not more so.
I still think the afterlife is wishful thinking for those who couldn’t get their justice while they lived. There is nothing to say that the universe(life+afterlife) is fair. there is nothing to even indicate an afterlife(except for “god”’s holy books)
June 17th, 2007 at 5:29 pm
Muslim Boy, I don’t know even who the heck is Yazid is, I know Hussyn, and I never heard about Yazid.
June 17th, 2007 at 12:28 pm
p.s you were right ahmadi is another branch of islam that developed recently their beliefs differ more thanthe sunnis and shias.
(i am guessing you are an athiest, correct me if i’m wrong, i respect you and have nothing aginst you everyone has the right to believ what the want. there is an interesting debate thatw as held quite a while ago between two theists (a muslim and a christian: hassanain rajabali and michael corey) against two athiests (dan barker and richard carrier). its quite long though but is very interesting, if you want you can watch the video at
http://www.shiasource.com/community/community_events/1/
June 17th, 2007 at 12:23 pm
“IN THE NAME OF ALLAH, THE MOST MERCIFUL AND COMPASIONATE”
BROTHER ‘AGONY’….
- the perfevt harmony of CREATION around us points to the existance of a creator. can such a beutiful, original and complex creations, from single-celled amoeba to the complex brain of man, have evolved by chance?
- evidence in instinct, as hard as it may be to believe their can never be a 100% athiest. this is because belief in god is a natural instinct. everything in life is based on morality , some may argue the only good thing religion brought was morality.
if their was no morality in life then there would be no such thing as good or bad or right or wrong. anyone who has morality has fear in something, because your morals are based on arule set by somthing. in this case its god, because if it wasn’t the whole idea of morality would have no point and we would all be going around committing crimes have no sense of respect and life would have no meaning.
-evidence in logic, everything has a trigger, therefore everything takes place due to a cause- therefore there is cause and effect. bertrand Russell once said that he would believe in God, if only he understood who had caused God to come into existance. although the discussion about this is a bit complicated, we can simplify it slightly. we believe that the existance of an ‘Ultimate acuse’ is necessery, otherwise if we imagine a being created God we must ponder over who created that being?
we can see that this arguement is endless. however, what we cannot deny is the effect of taht ultimate cause, which is the abundant glory of creation we see around us. it therefore follows that teher has to be a cause that has not been an effect of anything else and that ultimate cause is god. therefore an uncaused cause is vital other wise the idea of us just happening to be created without intention or purpose contradicts its self. once anyone accepts that god exists, we have to endeavor to understand the nature of his existance.
it si irrational to believe we are all an accident that happened to be created by cahnce. even that chance would need a trigger. theer must have been a starting point because otherwise it would not exist. even if a reason was found questions would be raised about what created that.
it is not right to think we are all accidents an dthat life is purposeless. even my previous statement make s a point, if someone commits an offence and is not punished, then how is that jsutical? therefopre an afterlife would ensure that that person does not get away with it and is punished according to their crime. if justice would not be served, we should all be playing ‘everyman for himself’, because their would be no rules to abide by and no morality to base our actions on.
i’m sorry if i cannot offer more, i am limited just like most people. however, i really appreciate the fact that you are openminded and willing to listen, a quality many others do not have. it is our duty to explore life and to understand each other, otherwise there would be no truth.
hope that helps…
June 17th, 2007 at 11:42 am
“thats why we need a hereafter (afterlife), so that god can be the judge.”
Replace “need” with “would like to have” and I’ll agree with you. but to say it plainly: I think that’s just wishful thinking on your side… I mean how can you be sure there is a god, an afterlife and whatever else your religion teaches?
Oh and i have no idea what an Ahmadi is(probably a branch of islam, but if so i don’t know anything about it), so I’ll be very grateful if you’d explain.
June 17th, 2007 at 11:22 am
“IN THE NAME OF ALLAH, THE MOST MERCIFUL AND COMPASIONATE”
Salam alaykom,
@agony
as hard as anybody may try, in life their will always be extremists in most religions, and in some cases even religious branches (ie. sunni or shia). most people do not want conflict, yet others do.
for example, if you look back into history, this man yazid was so selfish and unmerciful that the ordered the shias to be beaten or ikilled. hussayn (as), was a great man.
however, i don’t understand how some ppl can put yazid ahead of him, or in some cases even say yazid was better than him. this is what i mean, in life you have ppl who do not like being open minded, they refuse to listen or to understand other points of veiws. they believe what they believe is right and anything else deserves to go to hell. this is wrong, even in the holy qu’ran it says there is no obligation in religion.
if you look back to the past until today, shias are being opressed and its obvious. just the other day someone called me a terrorist and said i was avery bad person who is not a muslim. when i asked him why he said that because his parents teach him to hate the shias. just for your information this person is a ahmadi muslim.
for that reason ppl must understand each other’s beliefs and not critisize them. conflict should be avoided, but justice will never be served in this life.
thats why we need a hereafter (afterlife), so that god can be the judge.
“is allah not the best of judges?” (95:8)
its nice of you to invite me to israel, but i doubt i’ll ever go there…
June 17th, 2007 at 8:03 am
@muslim boy,
Too bad there are no shias in Israel(none i know about anyway), sounds like it’ll be fun to learn how small differences in(IMHO) secondary matters can create such a huge conflict between two groups, even after 1000+ years.
I am sure what happened back then _did_ make a huge difference to the present, but I don’t see how fighting over it will make anything better(except if you’re a historian)
Make sure to drop by if you ever come to israel(or perhaps jordan), don’t worry, we don’t bite.
June 17th, 2007 at 6:19 am
brother ‘agony,
u r soo right…
why are the shias and the sunnis different groups? we should unite as an ummah.
however , you must understand that what happened in the past make sa huge difference to the present. even in modern society, the shias are tarfgets for abuse, for instnce in iraq the shias are having their heads cut off because of their beliefs by the anti-shias .
this is wrong, some wish to cover what really happened because they refuse to accept that what they are following is invalid.
thanks for ur time anyway..
June 17th, 2007 at 6:17 am
finishing the last scentence:
The Prophet (s) said : “By Allah who is
the only deity! This is from Allah, the Mighty and the Glorious.”
June 17th, 2007 at 6:17 am
To find out detailed information on the event of Ghadir Khumm, visit:
http://al-islam.org/ghadir/
June 17th, 2007 at 6:16 am
Did the Prophet Appoint a Successor?
O Messenger, Proclaim what has been sent down to you from your Lord; and if you don’t do it, you have not delivered His Message (at all); and Allah will protect you from the people (Qur’an: Chapter 5, Verse 67)
Us Shia believe that the proclamation mentioned by the Qur’anic verse was fulfilled by the Prophet (s) when he appointed Imam ‘Ali bin Abi Talib (a) as his successor on the day of Ghadir Khumm.
Do the Sunni scholars consider this event authentic?
The number of Sunni authorities who narrate this event, both in detail and insummary, is mind boggling! This historic event was narrated by 110 Companions of the Prophet (s), 84 Successors from the following generation
and then by many hundreds of scholars of the Islamic world, from the first to the fourteenth century AH (seventh to twentieth century CE).
A very small selection of these sources is given below. Many of these scholars not only quote the Prophet’s declaration but also call it authentic:
􀂉 al-Hakim al-Naysaburi, alMustadrak
`ala al-Sahihayn (Beirut), volume 3, pp. 109-
110, p. 133, p. 148, p. 533. He expressly states that the tradition is sahih in accordance with the criteria of al-Bukhari and Muslim; al-Dhahabi has confirmed
his judgment.
􀂉 al-Tirmidhi, Sunan (Cairo), vol. 5, p. 633
􀂉 Ibn Majah, Sunan, (Cairo, 1952), vol. 1, p. 45
If there still remains doubt about the historic importance of this statement and the efforts of some people to cover it up, let this be the final word, this is What happened on the day of Ghadir Khumm.
Ghadir Khumm is a location some miles from Makkah on the road to Madinah. When the Prophet (s) was passing by this place on 18 Dhu’l Hijja (10 March 632) on his return from the Farewell Pilgrimage, the verse “O Messenger, Proclaim what has been sent down…” was revealed. He therefore stopped to make an announcement to the pilgrims who accompanied him from Makkah and who were to disperse from that junction to their respective destinations. By the orders of the Prophet (s) a special pulpit made of branches of trees was erected for him. After the noon prayer the Prophet (s) sat on the pulpit and made his last public address to the largest gathering before his death three months later.
The highlight of his sermon was when, taking Imam ‘Ali (a) by the hand, the Prophet (s) asked his followers whether he was superior in authority (awla) to
the believers themselves. The crowd cried out in one voice: “It is so, O Apostle
of Allah”.
He then declared: “He of whom I am the master (mawla), of him ‘Ali is also the master (mawla). O God, be the friend of him who is his friend, and be the enemy of him who is his enemy.”
Immediately after the Prophet (s) finished his speech, the following verse of the Qur’an was revealed:
Today I have perfected your religion and completed my favor upon you, and I
was satisfied that Islam be your religion. (Qur’an 5:3)
After his speech, the Prophet (s) asked everybody to give the oath of allegiance to ‘Ali (a) and congratulate him. Among those who did so was ‘Umar bin al- Khattab, who said: “Well done Ibn Abi Talib! Today you became the master of all believing men and women.”
An Arab, having heard of the event of Ghadir Khumm, came up to the Prophet (s) and said: “You commanded us to testify that there is no deity but Allah and that you are the Messenger of Allah. We obeyed you. You ordered us to perform the prayers five times a day and we obeyed. You ordered us to observe fasts during the month of Ramadhan and we obeyed. Then you commanded us to offer pilgrimage to Makkah and we obeyed. But you are not satisfied with all this and you raised your cousin by your hand and imposed him upon us as our master by saying ‘Ali is the mawla of whom I am mawla.’ Is this imposition from Allah or from you?” The Prophet (s) said : “By Allah
June 17th, 2007 at 6:15 am
“IN THE NAME OF ALLAH THE MOST MERCIFUL AND COMPASIONATE”
Salam alaykom to u all,
Brother muhammed, i refuse to carry on with you avoiding my questions like this. i am trying my best to answer yours, yet you just avoid mine and create more questions.
allah is all powerful and could have done anything. i not once hav said allah could have NOT made ali caliph like you are suggesting i am, NO NO NO. that is wrong. allah is aware of everything,
muhammed elected ali by the order of allah. this election was made public and the evidence to support this is in your hadith books as well as in ours, so do not call it a lie!!!
ali was more just than the other so called claiphs, i hate to say this but in a way the others were traitors as they went against the prophets word.
you are trying to twist what i am saying. you are making statements and are falsely suggesting i made the comment.
“What you are saying is the following, that God wasn’t able to make Ali caliph, because that was god and Muhammed’s will, but god couldn’t get his will, that’s exactly what you are saying.”
WHEN DID I SAY THAT!
i am highlighting the fact that ali and his shias were and always have been opressed. at what point did omar, ubu bakr and uthman have the RIGHT to elect themselves.
why did they go aginst the holy prophets will? the point is thata allah and muhammed chose ali, and even you acknowledge the event of ghadir took place, but are refusing to accept it as the truth.
rather than fearing allah, the hypocrites feared muhammed. they were on his side when he was present, but the moment he passed away, these people betrayed him and turned against him. you have no evidence to say muhammed (saww) chose the others. they were traitors and you know that.
people say ‘why do you care its only the past…’
i’ll tell you why we care, because this is a man who was opressed because he was a true believer who was entitled to the calipha. his calipha would have controlled the ummah like the prophet. the verses i have mentioned highlight ali (as) qualities. he was a mu’min all his life not like the others.
allah says to follo wpeople with the description he mentioned after the prophet. and only ali matches those descriptions. ali was free of sins (ayat al tathir 33:33)
“verily your gaurdian (wali) is Allah and his messenger (muhammed) and those who believe and establish the prayer, and give charity (alms) while they are (in ruku) bowing down.†(surat al-maisah, 5:55)
the above verse is a description of ali (as) personality. just to remind you it was ali who gave his charity while he was in ruku (another story also accepted by ahlul sunnah incase you wish to call it a lie)
answer my questions i have posed….
stop skipping them because you know they make apoint….
may allah bless u…
June 17th, 2007 at 5:54 am
‘ man kuntu mawlah fa aliyun mawlah’ (whos evers master i was then ALI IS HIS MASTER)
June 17th, 2007 at 12:09 am
@Mohammed,
“You know it’s written in the sky who will be the next caliph, so what you say here that god couldn’t get his will.”
So the names of your currently currupt kings of arabian countries were also written in the sky? I’m sorry to say that but if THAT’S true then god must be a real asshole.
@muslim boy,
Thanks for your explanation. Guess the sunnies aren’t really true of heart when talking about other groups either.
No, I don’t think it should matter when a person embraced islam, it would depend on the qualities of that person(this does not mean ali didn’t have the qualities. I don’t know enough to judge that)
So if both Sunnies and Shieeie’s believe in pretty much the same thing, why are they separate groups? I mean who cares what SHOULD have been? it’s over, done. What matters is what we do now.
@123,
Dunno about Omar, but from what I know AbuBaker didn’t really want to be a Caliph…
@no one in particular
This is turning into a Sunni VS Shia debate
June 16th, 2007 at 5:01 pm
Omar got killed and Ottman got killed, nobody of Sunnis crying their death, it’s God will and he has wisdom in doing it that way.
What you are saying is the following, that God wasn’t able to make Ali caliph, because that was god and Muhammed’s will, but god couldn’t get his will, that’s exactly what you are saying.
You know it’s written in the sky who will be the next caliph, so what you say here that god couldn’t get his will.
I’m no judge to say who is good and who is bad, only God know what was going on at this time.
June 16th, 2007 at 11:17 am
without authority, society goes corrupt,
you need a strong pious person to continue the prophets teachings. is it fair of allah (swt), to give the people of the prophet (saw)’s time a guider but leave the people after his death unguided?
who has the correct qualities to interpret the quran and explain to the ummah islam like the prophet.
not ubu bakr, not uthman nor umar. these people were not good people to be so greedy and want the calipa. ali was more than just a companion or son in law for muhammed (saw), he was a brother and a puious person. he had patience, somthing that the other ‘califs’, didnt because they refused the prophets order and wanted the calipha for themselves!
what kind of person would kill fatima (as), just because she refused to let them enter her home!
this is the rasool’s daughter. the prophet has said ‘fatima is the mother of her father’.
yet these people not only confiscate the garden that the prophet gave to her, but stole the calipha from ali (as).
it is not logical to love mu’awia and hussayn. it is obvious one was the good guy and the other the bad.
June 16th, 2007 at 11:08 am
“IN THE NAME OF ALLAH, THE MOST MERCIFUL AND COMPASIONATE”
Salam alaykom dear brothers and sisters,
to answer ur question ‘agony’…
no, us shias do not believe in what you say, THAT IS WRONG.
we believe the quran was sent down to MUHAMMED intentionally just like our sunni brothers. however, we believ that ali (as) was the rightful caliph as only he had the sufficient qualities to do so.
is’nt it ironic how ali (as) was a pious person all his life and was the first to embrace islam and defend the holy prophet? while if you contrast that to the other so called ‘caliphs’, the were kufars at one point in their lives and later converted to islam.
brother muhammed…
at the moment you seem to be missing the point and avoiding my questions…
do you not accept that ali (AS) was chosen (not recommended), by the holy prophet (saw) at ghadir khum? this is a FACT! even you sunnis accept it, it is in your books as well as ours. it is a hadith.
the holy prophet was on his farewell pilgrimige when he stopped thousands of the muslim followers in the scorching heat of the sun. he raised ali’s (as) hand and made it clear. how much times do i need to repeat my self : ‘MAN KUNTU MAWLAH, FA ALIYUN MAWLAH” (whos ever’s master I was then ALI is now also to him/her a master!!!!!!!!!)
and for your information, fatima (as), the holy prophet’s daughter , was martyred. and don’t try and twist the truth! the people who elected themselves and chose to go against muhammeds will, went up to her house in order to force ali (as) to give up the caliphat. the killed her by crushing her behind the door and killed her unborn baby (muhsin).
these people were meant to be good muslims? you put them befre ali (as)? for god’s sake, as soon as the prophet (saw)died, they went aginst him, stole the clipha, killed fatima???? and on top of that they were not just!
they put their family members in high positions across the islamic empire. as a result mu’awia broke the peace treaty between him and hassan (as), for that reason, hussayn (as) was slaughtered and martyred on the 10th of muharam.
and what a surprise, that SOME OF the sunni decide to fast on that day, i’ll tell you why because to celebrate yazids victory!!!!
answer this question : was yazid a good man?
yet some ppl put him ahead of the ahlulbayt (as).
the ahlul bayt (prophets houshold: muhammed, ali, fatima, hassan, hussayn, and all the imams), are free of sin. they are mentioned in the quran of being pure (refer to my previous entry)…..
may allah bless u…
June 15th, 2007 at 10:42 pm
Our meant to leave it this way, to show people that you can’t inherit authiority.
He wanted to leave this issues for people judgment.
Say who should be the Caliph, it’s waste of time to debate.
Our prophet promised the Omar and Abu Baker and Ottman with heaven, so how they are that bad like Shitt saying.
Ali will never use force, but he is not afraid to express it and try to show the Muslims the right way, and based on some Shitt said, that he threaten his family. That doesn’t make sense as I said before, Ali was the bravest Muslim ever exist, he wouldn’t scared about his family when it comes to God will.
June 15th, 2007 at 6:31 pm
@muslim boy,
“how could a man like muhammed (saw) leave the islamic ummah unguided?”
Just beautiful… I have been asking myself this question myself for sometime… guess the shieities have the solution… at least it’s more logical.
One question though: is it true that you believe that the angel gabriel gave the quran to mohammed by mistake when it was intended to be for ali?(this story is common by the sunnies over here, was never able to verify it)
June 15th, 2007 at 12:40 pm
“IN THE NAME OF ALLAH, THE MOST BENIFEFICENT”
Salam alaykom dera brothers and sisters,
before i start i would like to make it clear to ‘another muslem’ (no 95 of this pg) that us shias are muslims and that he or she is nobody to tell us we are not. who ever accepts allah as the only God, the most powerful who has no father or son, accepts muhammed as his prophet and his last messenger, the holy qu’ran as their holy book (hence says the shahadah) IS A MUSLIM!
also i would like to apologise for this late reply brother muhammed, i was busy with exams.
the event of GHADIR KHUM is a fact. you can not deny what not only is written in our hadith books (shia) but also the sunni hadith books. the event is accepted by both schools of thought. however, the differnec is that sunnis say that the holy prophet called ali as the caliph of his houshold and not the moslem ummah, which makes no sense seeing how the prophet said ‘ man kuntu mawlah fa aliyun mawlah’ (whos evers master i was then ALI IS HIS MASTER)
the second point, you say that ali would have used force? ali is a person who defends islam. if he used force that would only cause conflict. ali, unlike the other ‘caliphs’, was a man of patience and strenth both mentally and physically. they were not kufar for his to do that. never once did ali (as) raise a sword first aginst an enemy.
i am not talking about ali as helpless, neither am i trying to convert you into a shia muslim, my only aim is to tell you what happened. allah (swt) has given you a brain to make judgements. the event took place, tell me why you do not accept it? is the word of umar, ubu bakr and uthman stronger than the word of muhammed (saw)?
as you know muhammed’s (saw) actions are governed by allah (swt) order. even in the holy qu’ran allah orders the prophet by saying ‘qul’ (say).
muhammed made it clear that ali was to succeed, how could a man like muhammed (saw) leave the islamic ummah unguided?
the other caliphs do not have the qualities or the ability to control the ummah the way the prophet did. at one point in their lives they were kufar. after converting to islam, it does not mean that they were perfect.
muhammed chose ali by the order of god, and the order of god is not wrong.
for your info, yazid hated ali (as). he wanted revenge . what kind of person would put yazid ahead of hussyn. hussain representing justice and the true islam of the holy prophet, while this guy yazid, was a muslim by name but not by nature. yazid hated ali and his shia. you tell me yazi should HAVE BEEN the successor rather than hassan (as) alis son??
may allah bless you all….
June 15th, 2007 at 3:47 am
I wonder what happens if we get the shiist here… my take would be “sunnies >>>> not muslims” but who am i to decide who gets the right to call himself a moslem?
I’ll just laugh my ass off when Zeus throws you both into hell at the end
June 14th, 2007 at 5:46 am
every one has seen this pics must know that
shiist>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
not muslims
not muslims
not muslims
not muslims
not muslims
yes u r right
June 13th, 2007 at 10:48 am
To be frank these are not fake i have witnessed these “tradition” many times as a muslim from shiate sect.
but to also these are condisered by the majority of shi’ate schollars as an unacceptable and self suffering acts.
these acts are not rituals but traditions of the common people “anyone in the society” expressing there grieve for the Heroic death of Hussein grandson of the profet Muhammad
Shi’ate Schollars prohibeted them because its obvious that the are harming the image of islam world wide and special the shiate sect. THEY ARE TRADITIONS NOT RELATED TO ISLAM IN ANYWAY. so now we cant consider that the KKK clan’s rituals or any sect group’s riyual in the west is a act of christianity.
Please try to see these pix from the right perspective before making any judgemnt on any one.
Please p[lease please,, try to know more about Hussien and his revolution for the cause of human rights that after 1000 year the westren world is advocating for , while we already has embraced this concept 1000 year ago
June 7th, 2007 at 11:33 pm
I appreciate taking the time answring my questions.
You mentioned that why don’t I accept that Ali was the rightful Caliph, I accept that Ali was a caliph and he one of the best and close friend for our prophet.
The argument that our prophet recommend it that Ali is the succesor is fault, our prophet wouldn’ do such a thing, he wants Muslims to decide their own fate.
The other thing if Ali knew that what our prophet dicided that Ali should be the Caliph, do you think the threatning would work with Ali, Ali was the most brave man Islam know, and I can tell you stories about his courage, and if you really know Ali, Ali would do anything to get our prophet order done, and you know that better than me.
You are talking about Ali like he is helpless, Ali was a true believer, he wouldn’t hestiate a second to sacrify his life for Muhammed’s order.
We feel bad for Hussein like we feel bad for Omar and Othman, we don’t make differnce between any of the sahaba, should we blame our self for Omar death or Othman or Ali or Huessin, it’s god will for them to die this way, why are you blaming yourself, that sanity.
I’m sorry that i’m little bit harsh, but the way you talk about Ali, it shows that you know little about him.
There is no way that they cursed Ali in Atahn, that’s bull-shit, and why Sunni like Ali now, what the differnece, why the Sunni now shows Ali as a the Islam hero? Tell what the differnce?
June 7th, 2007 at 1:52 pm
“IN THE NAME OF ALLAH, THE MOST MERCIFUL AND COMPASIONATE”
Salam alaykom dear brothers and sisters,
to answer brother muhammed’s questions….
“verily your gaurdian (wali) is Allah and his messenger (muhammed) and those who believe and establish the prayer, and give charity (alms) while they are (in ruku) bowing down.” (surat al-maisah, 5:55)
to begin with, hussayn (as) martydom was vital and we all know that, sunni or shia. when hussayn (as) made the sacrafice, he did it to show us aYazid’s ersion of islam was corrupt and is not the true islam that the prophet put into practice. He did NOT ask anyone to beat themselves. the trajedy is one that must always be remembered. on Ashura of Muharram, it is a day were the Holy prophet (saw) was slaghted unmercifuly by the hypocrites by the order or Yazid (may allah’s cursings be upon him). yet some people have the courage to call Yazid a mawli and accept him as a mu’min!
YOU ARE TELLUNG ME IT DOESN’T MATTER WHO WAS THE CALIPH FIRST? ofcourse it does…
The holy prophet made it clear at Ghadeer Khum, that Ali was to succeed after him by the orders of Allah (swt).
“man kuntu mawlah fa aliyun mawlah…” (who’s ever’s master i was then ali is his/her master…)
this is evidence that we not only obtain from the shia books but also from the sunni book of Bukhari! (just incase someone would like to call it a lie.)
at ghadeer khum when the annoncement was made, the following verse was sent down:
“o messenger! deliver what has been revealed to you from your lord; and if you do not do it, then you have not delivered his message, and Allah will protect you from the people ; surely Allah will not guide the unbelieveing people” (surat al-maidah, 5:67). it is vital that ali (as) was to be the caliph because only he had the sufficient qualities to do so and contol the islamic ummah like the prophet. he was a believer all his life, the first male to accept islam, more loyal to the holy prophet than any other…
brother muhammed, you say that ali didn’t care? after the prophet (pbuh)’s death, while ali (as) was arranging the funeral a group of people were planning to steal the calipha and go against the holy prophet (pbuh)’s word. it is obvious who these people were…
these people stole the calipha from ali (as) by force. threatning him and his family. just to remind you his family being the family of the messenger of allah (muhammed). as a result of this force, fatima (as) the holy prophet’s beloved daughter was killed.
ali (as) was a just man and deserved the calipha more than them. the other caliphs put their relatives and freinds in power across the islamic empire. they acted unjustly with the treasury given unfair amounts.
when ali (as) finally became the caliph, his justice was shown as he acted fairly and controlled the ummah in the fair and justical way the holy prophet (as) had. he was so justical that some of his own followers (the khawarij)turned against him because he was not treating them as the previous caliphs were.
you talk about destiny? allah (swt) has not pre planned our destiny, other wise our life would be useless because we would have no choice to do good or bad. therefore, freewill exists and we have the option to control our actions. allah (swt) is the allknowing and knows our future, but has given us freewill to decide. otherwise on the day of judgement we could just tell our lord allah (swt) that we had no choice but to do bad. therefore allah (swt) knew that the calipha would be stolen from ali (as) and even the holy prophet and ali (as) knew. however, this is part of life, to see who would stick by the holy prophet (saw’s word and who would go against it.
allah (swt) meant this to happen as part of life. if everything was perfect, there would be no need for life because we would all be true muslims who never sin and there would be no test.
you say you like ali more than me? i am no one to say you don’t, but why don’t you accept him as the rightfull calif even with the holy prophet (saw)’s command?
understand the similarities between shias and sunnis…
we are closer to each other thatn anyone may think. we are united in tawheed, accepting muhammed as the final messenger of allah (swt, and the holy quran as being our holy book. the above images represent SOME shias. they do it to commerate hussayns sacrifice. what they are doing is not killing them, they are doing what they can handle. instead they could be donating that blood. but its up to them, just like its up to you to make choices in life such as following islam as a religion.
if you understood the love the holy prophet (saw) had for hussayn, and how hussayn had been salghtered then mabye you would understand how opressed us
muslims are as a ummah.
abu bakr, umar and uthman did not deserve to be caliphs nor were they chosen by the holy prophet (saw), they elected themselves and went against the holy prophet’s command, that is the point i am making. ali (as) should have had control so that he may select his successor. however, the ummayids were formed and were against ali (as) and his followers (shias). they made it obligitory (wajib) to curse ali (as) in the athaan!!!!!!!
can you believe these people? not only do they steal the calipha, but they curse the shais , who were just following allah (swt)’s commands?
lets compare my dear freind….
the grandfather of Yazid was ubu sufyan who was an enemy of the holy prophet (as)…
the grandfather of hussayn (as) was the holy prophet (saww) himself…
the people would complain and say how this man muawiya would lead the salah while he was drunk! these ummayids were no muslims! they drank alcohol gambled killed and did all sorts of sins, yet still they are put ahead of the hlulbayt (as) (prophet’s houshold). did i not mention ayat al-tathir in my previous entry ( 33:33), these people were clean of sins… if they were in power they would be justical… however whenever they tried they would be tortured or killed by the ummayids (and later the abbasids as well).
my dear brother, i hope this answers your questions… inshala you will understand why us shias remember the tragedy of hussayn (as) and why we commerate his martydom… most shias only beat themselves to an acceptable level, only some do this blood thing and i for one am against it. but don’t think all shia are like this…
may allah bless you all…
June 6th, 2007 at 9:34 pm
The version of Islam would make you hit yourself and got your body with blood, Islam has no version, you want to make a versions of it, fear god.
You didn’t answer my questions yet, do you think God didn’t destine that Abu Baker to be The first and Ali to be the fourth.
I don’t what you argue about, is it that what you care about if Ali first or last.
What version os Islam you talk about, your version, and if you think that was a differnet version of Islam was applied in the other Calip’s era, do you think Ali would stay silent, don’t do any thing about it. Ali was ready to fight whoever for Islam, do you think he would see wrong things happen and he would let it go. You should know Ali better.
I like Ali may be even more than you, but I know how Ali was, and how simple he is, he wouldn’t care about being Caliph.
The other question I would like some shit to answer, Abu Baker was reach before Islma, how much money did he has when he died? the same about Omar and Othman and Ali. Being caliph was a prevliage, it was a huge responsibility in front of God.
June 6th, 2007 at 3:32 pm
man do you know what a huge difference it wuld have been if ali was the caliph first! he deserves it and ofcourse he cared, the islamic ummah had to be controlled and taught the prophets version of islam, not YAZIDS!
June 5th, 2007 at 8:23 pm
Hold on little but, I didn’t say you are not a Muslims. Who ever said the shehada is a Mulim, and I’m not judging anybody.
Do you think Ali was bothered for not being the caliph, did you think he care, do you think he was looking forward to it. Don’t you believe in destiny? Do you think what happen out of God control?
That were my questions, you said it’s not fair, Did Ali( karam Allah Wajhah) need you to defend him. He is better than me and you, and if he was that mad, I think he would show it.
I said before I’m against killing against who ever, it doesn’t even have to be a Muslim, I don’t like or support killing.
I don’t compare amybody to anybody, only God know who is better than who, so you are the one who judging people, answer my questions and you will see I’m right.
June 5th, 2007 at 1:40 pm
thats only some shias. others donate blood which is much better. hussayn didnt say to do this. its ppl doing it out of their own will. us muslms shuld concerntrate about unting ourselves. not abusing each other. just because SOME shias do this you think all do? u think just becasue they do that they r not muslims? what about prayer don’t they pray? or fast? or do good deeds? only allah is the all knowing. first of all correct ur mistakes then tell others. you can’t say ur perfect and that ur a gr8 person who is defintly gonna enter heaven. thats for allah to decide. read books, research different veiwpoints. don’t just rely on what ur parents tell u or what ppl of ur faith say. imagine u were born into a different faith. wuld u still say that it was correct? thinl.. allah has given us brains to use..
June 5th, 2007 at 12:57 pm
how dare anyone say that the shias are not muslims! and ofcorse it makes a difference if ali ibna abi talib (as) was the first caliph or not. if he was first he wuld chose his succesor. remeba that thruout his whole life ali was a mu’min. unlike the other caliphs (who i also respect), who were a unbelievers at some point in their lives. ali (as) was the first convert to islam. when every1 mocked the holy prophet (saw), ali defended him. we all agree that whatever the prophet commands is an order of allah (swt). for example even in the holy qu’ran allah (swt) says ‘qul’ (say) to the holy prophet. the holy prophet chose ali to be his successor because he knew only he had the qualities to do so. after the prophet’s death it was vital that there would be a caliph who wuld be able to continue the prophets message. we know muhammed (pbuh) was the last messenger of allah, but after he died the calipha was stolen from ali. look at all the abuse shias suffer. do you even know what happened at karbala? do you not thank allah that you were born a muslim? if hussayn had not doen that you would be not following islam! you compare yazid with hussayn? yazid’s grandfather was ubu sufyan, an enemy of the holy prophet (saw). while on the other hand hussayn’s grandfather was tegh messenger of allah muhammed (saw). yazid was so evil he wuld kill and drink alcohol. yet you put him ahead of hussayn? this yazid had hussayn’s head cut of. he wanted revenge from the holy prophet because of the deaths of his family.
the holy prophet (pbuh) said: hussayno mini wa ana minal hussayn’ (hussayn is of me and i am of hussayn)
many stories highlight the prophet’s love for hussayn.
even in iraq now, the shia are being terrorized and are having their heads cut of by terrorists. you call that islam? you call that justice? you compain when some shias hurt themselves but its fine for terrorists to terrorise them?
may allah forgive us all
June 5th, 2007 at 9:55 am
what is ur problem ppl, we r not arguin ova ho shuld be first, were saying this is how the sunni-shia split formed. we r muslims and u are nobody to say we r not, allah is alknowing and he judges whos a gd muslim or not. i know what they r doin is rong, but dont label all shias like that. they are rememberin a trajedy, and u owe imam hussain for his sacrifice, coz if he didnt do what he did u wuld be a slave to yazid…
June 5th, 2007 at 7:55 am
Yeah, Mohamed, they remind me of the idiot Christians who literally crucify themselves every Easter.
June 5th, 2007 at 12:25 am
Look at the pictures above, is it from Islam, that’s bull shit, God never said to hurt your self, you are freaking morons.
I’ve seen these pictures on tv, and I was so surprized how stupid these people.
Are you kidding me?
June 5th, 2007 at 12:23 am
Man, ask god to frogive you. I like Ali as any other Caliph, but it doesn’t mean that he has to be the first, so many stories that our prophet put them in that order, and what is that all about, if he was first or last, does it make him less, sure enough not, and if you would ask him, he would tell you that he doesn’t even care, these true Muslims didn’t seek this life, they sought what is bette that this life, and you still talking who should be first.
They are all in heaven, do you think being Caliph is better than being in heaven, and do you thing if he should be first, would god allow that to make last.
You are fetna and distraction for Islam, I hope god forigves you.
June 4th, 2007 at 9:20 am
ali should have been the caliph first.
June 4th, 2007 at 9:19 am
allah is all knowingh. who is to say that shias are not better than us?
June 3rd, 2007 at 2:26 pm
i’m not saying i agree with the shias doing this to themselves, but there is a certain extent of acceptable commeration. most of the time they just beat their chests which is up to them. it is their way of commeerating a tragedy. yet they suffer abuse from people who do not understand islam. who is anybody to say what a true muslim is? is a muslim not someone who believs in allah and his messenger? someone who enocurages good and prohibits evil. it says in the holy qu’ran:
“surely the most honourable of you with allah, is the one among you most careful of his duties (strongest piety)”
instead of argueing, muslims should unite as a ‘ummah’ and put their differences aside.
allah (swt) is the all powrefull, the almighty and the all knowing
he is the best of judges and he knows who the pous people ar (mu’mins).
may allah bless you all
June 3rd, 2007 at 2:19 pm
“IN THE NAME OF ALLAH THE MOST MERCIFUL AND COMPASIONATEâ€
oh people do you know who the shias are? shias are muslims who accept ali (as) as first caliph. the holy prophet made clear before his death that ali is his sucsessor. ” man kuntu mawlah fa aliyun mawlah” (who’s ever’s master i was, then ali is now their master). ever since the prophets departure, the shias have been opressed.
” verily allah wishes to drive away all evils from you o ahlul bayt (prophets house hold ali, fatima, hassan , hussayn(AS), and cleanse you thoroughly.” (surat al-ahzab, 33:33)
this verse proves that the ahlul bayt were great people. how dare someone abuse them? how can they say this to those who are loved by the prophet and allah (swt)? you accuse the shia of being bad people when all they are doing is following the prophet’s commands?
“oh you who believe, obey allah and obey the messenger, and those of you in authority (ulul amr)” (surat al-nisa 4:59)
“so submit patiently to thy lord’s command, and obey not of them any guilty one or disbeliever.” (al-dahr 76:24)
the same word for obey has been used in both verses therefore the ulul amr must not be a sinner or a disbeliever- he must be ma’sum. now from verse 33 of surat al ahzab, we know that the only person after the holy prophet (saw) who fitted the description of being infailable and deserving of being ‘ulul amr’ was imam ali (as).
if hussayn (as) had not made that sacrafice muslims would not be following the islam of the holy prophet (sas), but would be wrongly following yazid’s version. oh people the shia are the lovers of the prophet and his houshold. how can aby one hate muslims who follow the prophet?
research it and underastand the true tragedy of karbala and who the shia really are.
June 3rd, 2007 at 2:02 pm
“IN THE NAME OF ALLAH THE MOST MERCIFUL AND COMPASIONATE”
Salam alaykom dear brothers and sisters,
a few things must be made clear here… first of all do not make a judgement (such as shias are not muslims) unless you have researched it and have got sufficient evidence to support it. i am only a kid but i know this.
shias and sunnis are muslims and are united in believing in allah (swt), belief in muhammed ( saw) and the holy qu’ran as their holy book.
June 2nd, 2007 at 5:48 am
i m a totaly moderated shia. and all of u above said almost in deffer to above pic. but what u think u just make a cut to ur finger then u will see that u will feel pain for almost a week. then how it is possible that a person cutted himself and also other day he or goes on work too……… my friend it is possibel…. i also experienced it for only its realty to look what could happen. and i experienced that when i cutted myself saying YA HUSSAIN believe me i never felf even a piece of pain. and other day i also marched to my office with no pain at all…. even i stiched on my back….so its not fake my friends its real…. i as a SHIA wants u too…. not say it fake…. u do ur own and let us on ur own…. do practical ….. just cut a but ur finger ,,,u will see finger will pain even a month,,,, but i experience that i cant feel pain even the next day….. so think that What POWER lift all pain…. and how deep cuts could fill in days… JUST THINK with cool mind…………… SHIAS ARE NOT FAKE
May 19th, 2007 at 8:25 pm
Hmm - not a sight you would see on an average European city street. Am I the only person here who thinks that these blokes are wankers? WHY are they doing this? Have they some personality problems, or they just headcases? Not a religious concern, I think, just prats. Perhaps some couch time with their Shrinks, as I think they are called acros the Pond. There are some idiots in the world, aren’t there?
May 19th, 2007 at 7:46 am
lol, poor stupid and ignorant people..
but at all, this is a fucking cool horror to see
May 12th, 2007 at 7:26 pm
I am a Shia muslim, and here is the true Fatwa on this issue by Khamenei:
Q1449: In commemorating the martyrdom of Imam Husayn (a.s.) on the tenth of Muharram, some people hit themselves with a machete, or walk bare-footed on fire. Such actions defame Shi‘ism and put it in a bad light, if not undermine it. They cause bodily and spiritual harms on these doing it as well. What is your opinion in this matter?
A: Any practice that causes bodily harm, or leads to defaming the faith, is haram. Accordingly, the believers have to steer clear of it. There is no doubt that many of these practices besmirch the image of Ahlul Bayt’s (a.s.) School of Thought which is the worst damage and loss.
Q1450: Is hitting oneself with swords halal if it is done in secret? Or is your fatwa in this regard universal?
A: In addition to the fact that it is not held in the common view as manifestations of mourning and grief and it has no precedent at the lifetime of the Imams (a.s.) and even after that and we have not received any tradition quoted from the Infallibles (a.s.) about any support for this act, be it privately or publicly, this practice would, at the present time, give others a bad image of our school of thought. Therefore, there is no way that it can be considered permissible.
by Ayatallah Khamenei
http://www.leader.ir
April 22nd, 2007 at 7:00 am
@Muslim Girl
let’s see.. why they are the fastest growing?
1. having XXL families when most people have less than 4 children?(or was that Europe?)
2. guys like our friend Mohammed here quitting their life in Islamic countries to join the free folks?
3. people who leave islam are to be killed.
That sums it up for me.
UK? What are you talking about? I am a former moslem living in an islamic village in israel. So excuse me, but Islam is as “peaceful” as the old testament is.
Anyway, those people are proof that that “good people will do good things, bad people will do bad things, but to make good people do bad things you need religion”
April 21st, 2007 at 11:46 am
???????
April 21st, 2007 at 10:56 am
@Agony :–
!!!!a better excuse!!!
Do u ask yourelf why Islam is the fastest growing religeon in US
maybe u are not from this world (;
Do u know why there is always fighting in Iraq
or maybe because u dont know the real Islam I heard that
in UK they teach them Islam in a bad way (violent and torreism)
which is realy not…..
(Sorry for my bad English)
April 20th, 2007 at 8:29 am
@Muslim girl:
Yeah sure… those are not true moslems. We heard it a million times over. Get a better excuse.
April 19th, 2007 at 7:43 pm
hi every one
I just want to tell u that these people are
shiaa and muslims are sunni the are not muslim
muslims dont call any one for help except allah(my god in
English) while shiaa said ALI or Hussain They may come from Iran
MUSLIMS DONT DO THAT
The are lke animals?? what is the benefit of doing that??
They ARE JUST DOING WHAT THEIR IMAM SAID (LIKE KHOMAINY)
If u want to say anything or ask about Islam and shia plz email me on Kholoud25@hotmail.com
April 17th, 2007 at 3:59 am
Why do all of you servants of God fight amongst each other.
each and every existing religion on earth has at least one thing in common, LOVE ALL AND SERVE ALL.As those who do not see God in all do not see God at all.I am a firm and mighty believer in Sikhism, and my faith will never diminish as my religion teaches me to respect all religions as my own.and as far as God goes,HE IS ONLY ONE>ONLY ONE. we call him by thousands of names like WAHEGURU,ALLAH,RAM etc, but he is only one.we, the whole human race are HIS creation and we are all brothers and sisters.if you cant accept that,i only say that you are being led the wrong way to life
WAHEGURU JI KA KHALSA WAHEGURU JI KI FATEH
April 16th, 2007 at 8:23 am
ISLAM IS NOT A RELIGION. WHICH RELIGION DEMANDS ITS FOLLOWERS TO BEAT THEMSELVES, LEAST OF ALL BABIES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! YOU PEOPLE ARE BEING LED THE WRONG WAY TO LIFE.HOW CAN YOU BEAT AND CHASTISE YOUR BODY????????????????????? YOUR BODY IS A TEMPLE,YOU MUST TREAT IT LIKE ONE
March 17th, 2007 at 12:26 pm
oops ur right i might have said that and ur right i m sorry
u r ruining my life by being mean to each other
but if u don’t want to stop u don’t have to
and happy Saint Patrick’s Day to every 1
March 15th, 2007 at 9:31 pm
“so u better b respectful and not call allah a loser”
*ahem*
“upeople r ruining my life and showing me how crual u all r”
In what way are we ruining your life? Id really like to know so we stop hurting your feelings.
March 15th, 2007 at 8:10 pm
u just killed a little of me inside i hope ur happy
March 15th, 2007 at 8:08 pm
i never said to shut up and i never said u have to show respect i said u should
just calm down u bully
March 15th, 2007 at 6:49 pm
ameer, if you don’t like whats being said then don’t read it. It is our right to say what we want and you cannot simply tell us to shut up. we do not have to show respect to allah if WE DON’T BELIEVE in him. Just to make sure your aware, most of the people on this site are atheist, which means we don’t believe in any god.
March 15th, 2007 at 6:27 pm
786
i m also cant we get along meaning i wrote number 60
i m 13 years old and just to say hanan is right
upeople r ruining my life and showing me how crual u all r
and not going to say n e names but who ever says something bad about allah should be care full cuz allah is god allah is mighty allah has power and everything that happens to u is from allah so u better b respectful and not call allah a loser and just b nice please
and i know most kids will grow up to do this
once again i m a half shia and sunnie living in new york as a 13 year old
thanks to all u supporters
March 15th, 2007 at 5:44 pm
whats wrong with EVERYBODY
they r not hurting n e 1 but them selves and 4 the kids they r not doing it hard they r just touching the soft skin
we all believe in god
so let the shia do what they want and don’t blame the Jews the Americans the sunnies and shia we r all people of god
so there is no reason to criticize other religions
this type of stuff that u right can ruin some1s life
and i m a half sunnie and half shia imagine my lfe
March 14th, 2007 at 5:01 pm
God,
Shias and sunnis DO agree on who the messenger is. They disagree on who was his rightful successor.
February 16th, 2007 at 9:54 am
Uh, boris? Have you heard of the Iran Contra Affair? The US has supplied weapons to Iran as well. Oh, and we supplied Iraq with almost all of its military equipment that they used on us in both gulf wars as well.
February 16th, 2007 at 2:43 am
@hanan
god knows, i am not friendly to religion. out of all religions, i find islam to be the worst in every regard. the only reason i dislike the current war in iraq is because american soldiers are dying there. instead, we could have used this very sectarian conflict to do our job for us. islam is opposed to my way of life, and its followers are not shy about not letting me forget that fact.
an example: the reason iran is not using slingshots is because russia (and others) like money. the reason iran has money is oil. oil is _very_ limited. once it runs out, we’ll f-ing talk, and you won’t like it.
February 15th, 2007 at 3:59 pm
indeed, every religion first commandment should be “Thou must keepeth thy religion to thyself and shallt not bothereth others with it”
February 15th, 2007 at 11:46 am
Really fatir, judgeing by the picture I would have to disagree. Those little babies didn’t have much of a say in the matter… now did they?
I’m all for people doing whatever they want to themselves. But leave the kids alone. That’s just stupid.
gasmonso
February 15th, 2007 at 11:44 am
i totally support this. its their religeous thing. infact they do it to themselves not anybody else
January 30th, 2007 at 11:25 am
wow, how did this thread get resurected? maybe a bump to the frontpage gasmonso?
I think it’s very funny how both sides say “We are brothers, we both believe this” to which the other side says “We are brother, we both believe that”
January 30th, 2007 at 10:23 am
Oh my god… I’m sorry but i could only read half of daniel’s post before giving up due to his language.
an interesting point:
Hossein “had been killed†! Hossein hate to kill ! hossein like to be burned just like a candle to enlight my and your way to truth. he did what god had ordered ! just like jesus(pbuh). He is actual message of divin books.
In islam the guy who brought the holy book is Mohammed, and lilly said Shia and Sunni are both the same religion… Shouldn’t a religion be at least agreeing on who the messenger is?
Oh, and not to forget: Not all religions speak of an afterlife.
January 30th, 2007 at 9:20 am
I already think my grandpa hears the TruVoice!
http://www.magnatone.com/truvoice.html
Seriously, Daniel, we weren’t talking about you. We were talking about the people in the pictures and article who are obviously doing the things we were talking about.
Do you cut yourself on Ashura?
Do you cut your children on Ashura?
January 30th, 2007 at 7:04 am
O God ! Help me to say the truth .
Dear !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I am a shia !! why you say about me what you dont know??!!! Do you know me better than me?!( befor being shia, my relegion is “love”.)
Do you beleive in God? Do u beleive all heaven relegions?
I say all heaven relegions have the same message ! all relegions say us : try to get everlife( never die) befor u die ! How it is possible? it is possible only when u get out of your “self” ,( just like a growing seed , the first step of growth(love) is to get out of the shell( self) ).
Do u do,say, see, ear waht satisfy your creator. do u say about Ashura the truth? Do you say what God say about Ashura? do you obey your “self” or your loved( your God) ?
I love all of you. Hossein “had been killed” ! Hossein hate to kill ! hossein like to be burned just like a candle to enlight my and your way to truth. he did what god had ordered ! just like jesus(pbuh). He is actual message of divin books. (just like jesus).
Have you ever seen a christan who hang her neck a cross?! this is the same as emotions of shia and some sunni in Ashura( and some ppl of other religions) . a christian wish ! i wish i were with jesus; so a shia wish! i wish i were with hossein !!
all there sermonies are a symbol only ! when we beat our chest we say :Oh god ! let this stony heart to have frehs water and make me alive.
I say all ppl are brother and sister ! I say “first u then me”.
Hossein teached us the lesson of freedom ! as Gandi ( the Guider of India ppl)said this.
wana know Hossein ? read the poets of Rumi, wana know hossein? try to everclean your heart,to ear the voice of your conscience( your God).
Hossein is the martyr of divin love( as god say in all heaven boodks: “ones who come to God by their money, capitals family and soul” !! )
Hossein say : if u havent a religion, try to be a gentleman and free !!
I say myself: try not to be an insect on the sweetness of this world, try to be a highfly eagle !and see nice harmonies and nice landscapes of truth, see unity, as Zeinab( sister of hossein) said: I didnt see in Ashura but beauties !!
A day befor Ashura, hosseins nefew asked him : o ancle ! am i dead tomorrow? hossein asked, dear! what u define death? the young boy said: for me it is better than golden ring hanged on the chest of a young beauty girl, sweetest than honey !
at the evening of Ashura,the little girl of hossein, whene she was given water , never drinked (after 2-3 days)
, when she saw her father cutten hed,she died at the same moment !!
This is the Exam(test) of Love !! are you a lover? can u do what jesus did? what abraham did with his boy !!
They are a pattern for us !! they say us: try to love eachother for God , not for “self” ! as i do , this is Love !!!!!
sonni is my brother . you are my brother.
Here i cant say more in a little page !!!
The end word: Life is very short, you will ear the Tru( truth) voice soon!! try not to be shamed befor lose opportunity(life, time and chance)!!
Dont say about me ,if u dont know me !!
Your way for you, and mine is for me.
January 28th, 2007 at 11:18 am
lilly said:
so please guyz understand that not all shiis believe in this and our religion doesnt say to do this what so ever extremist just give us a bad name.
I understand that you believe that this is not the way of true Islam, but the people who are doing it believe it is. This site is basically a news and editorial site about religious extremists — people who take their beliefs too far. You aren’t going to see headlines like “Moderate Muslim is a successful parent” or “Guy who goes to Catholic Mass only on Christmas and Easter works at Walmart” because this site is about extremists.
What I would love to hear from you is your support for the claims that these guys are wrong. Maybe some verses from your holy books that would support your stance, historical evidence that this ritual was not practiced by early Muslims, or logical retort to their interpretation of Ashura. We only have one really vocal Muslim regular poster, a chap named Mohamed, and we’d love to have a female perspective.
January 28th, 2007 at 10:40 am
Oh my god… I’m gonna be sick. Couldn’t you have let me live in blissful ignorance of this thread?
@Lilly
I wonder… are there ANY moslems at all who are doing what islam asks them to do? IIRC every single bad thing about islam is said to be from extremists/maniacs, how many groups like these are there?!
On the front page there are 4 topics about people who understood islam in a wrong way and did some crazy thing… Makes me think, perhaps islam is just too vaguely defined for any practical purposes…
January 28th, 2007 at 9:57 am
one more thing i went over the comments that were posted seriously some people need to get a life because shii’s are muslims and whether you like it or not they are. And your denial will not really change what was written down in the quraan and hadith like thousands and thousands of years ago. and i do respect everyones religion because if you look in all those 4 holy books all jews,christians,and muslims believe in the same thing. And yeah by the way pleaseee dont sit there and start threatning or fighting with your keyboord because its just winning the olympics in the end you’re still retarted so not really looking for fights with no one on here. And i do say that these people are shii’s and yeah im from teh same group and religion but this is wronnnnggggggggggg no one should ever do this to themselves and chirldren especially infants. so please guyz understand that not all shiis believe in this and our religion doesnt say to do this what so ever extremist just give us a bad name.
January 28th, 2007 at 9:39 am
ummmm this has nothing to do with ashura these freaks are beating themselves to death and in our religion it doesnt say to do that so whatever they re doin they need helpppp big time . that poor baby he’s mom is a freak of natureeee. anyways ashura is not celbrated like that so whatever these people are doinnn its a sin
January 19th, 2007 at 11:15 am
Hmmmmm… Celestial Tea… Let me soak in it for few minutes.
P.S. Everyone is welcome to join.
January 19th, 2007 at 2:25 am
no worshippers of thor have ever bothered me on a weekend. or have they ever tried to pass legislation that would influence my daily life. or have they ever attacked my country. in my book:
thor > any abrahamic boogie man
January 19th, 2007 at 12:23 am
All hail to Celestial teapot, we who float on a crumpet in the eternal teacup bow down in face of your might.
As it is written in the dangly piece “Must be let to soak for four minutes.” That is the word of the Teapot and it is true.
Death to those who only soak for three minutes or less!!!
January 18th, 2007 at 6:06 pm
Oh, please! Thor is a wanker. The Celestial Teapot wrothfully rains caffeinated fluid upon his pathetic skull daily.
Let him search the heavens and swing his hammer wildly as he might, but I know that he shall NEVER lay a blow on the Celestial Teapot.
And Allah? The dude didn’t even show up. What a Loser!
January 18th, 2007 at 4:58 pm
irish…
How dare you even compare Thor and Allah! Allah is only alluded to and guessed at in his holy works. The Eddas clearly define the actions of our master Thor and his deeds such as fishing Jormungander the Midgard serpent from the oceans!
May his hammer swing mightily and crack the skulls of his foes on Ragnarok!
January 18th, 2007 at 1:09 pm
“I would like to let you know that Muslims and Islam will prevail over all religions and will withstand time right up until the End.”
Actually hanan, i would like to tell you that mighty Thor will return and seek vengence on those who turned from him. Sounds crazy doesnt it? well theres really no difference between allah and thor in our eyes. If you read anything on this website youd notice the majority of the people here are atheist, so theres no possible way our religion is corrupt, because we dont have one.
January 18th, 2007 at 5:28 am
To Boris,
Yes, I will agree with you that ever since the beginning of Islam there has been major conflict between the Shia’s and Sunni’s but what many people worldwide do not realise is that at the end of the day, they are both still Muslim, believing in the same God, the same Prophets, the same Holy Book, the same basic principals and so on. And in regard to your comment about ‘being dealt with in the same way’, I would like to let you know that Muslims and Islam will prevail over all religions and will withstand time right up until the End. So whatever your thinking, get it out of your head. Because it is YOU who will be living in hell FOREVER… you got that? FOREVER! Why? You may ask, because of your beliefs that do no good for you and because of the way you critise others when you don’t even have the slightest idea that it is YOUR religion that is corrupt. But… that’s your problem not ours.
November 7th, 2006 at 6:10 pm
@muslim
haha… and it was soooo hard to separate you. we had to work really hard to get sunnis and shiites to kill each other. but worry not, my dear muslim, in the end you’re all the same and will be dealt with in the same way.
November 7th, 2006 at 3:33 pm
yeah muslim, its always the jews and americans who are the problem…
November 7th, 2006 at 3:26 pm
all shia and sunnis are brothers and sisters so dont try seperate us u jews and u americans. we belive in the same god and same holy book.
November 2nd, 2006 at 7:48 am
plzz….wait
every one has seen this pics must know that
shiist>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
not muslims
not muslims
not muslims
not muslims
not muslims
October 25th, 2006 at 5:00 pm
May Allah forgive me for what I have to say.
A few years ago I converted (from nothing) to Islam. I had read the Quran before and was happy with the words of God/Allah. When I went into the world to live islam I felt uncormfortable to be a muslim and grew more and more ashamed to be one. I felt the spirit of the Quran or anything like that cannot be found anywhere among muslims. Instead of hope, faith or love I find quarrel about rules; self-assumed righteousness about which hadith/traditions are valid and which are false and hatred between sects. Many brothers and sisters chant the Quran without knowing the meaning of the words in their own language, just like parrots sing their song. And they know, they all know, but no one feels and no one changes his way of life. No one, no one I met, lives Quranic.
It is this refusal to think for one selves, this reluctance to change and resistance to knowledge and foremost lack of respect to Allah which makes me cry and wonder if my only option is to renounce islam.
You ask, Why is it that Islam is ALWAYS targeted? Well, maybe it is just because of that. The refusal to consider even the posibility that the cause of hatred towards islam is the behaviour of muslims themselves.
Because abberations like 9/11 or these Shia self-mutilations (fake or not!) are done away with on ground that thay are done by despicable fanatics, strayed sects. You can hear that in words like: these are not (real) muslims. You can hear that in words like: You can’t blame the whole Shia (/muslim) community for this.
If my son steals some fruit, I will have to act. And so have muslims. The muslim community has the obligation to act if one (or many) of their brothers goes astray. You want to fight about who is the right? You dont have to fight about who is right and who is wrong. If I dont correct my son I am to blame and I dont earn any respect. If I act but cant get my son to understand I fail as a father; but in that case at least I showed responsibility and so will be accepted by the world.
When I saw the pictures above I felt ashamed again to be a muslim. I feel horrified. Horrified not by the people who perform these rituals, but horrifed by their muslim brothers who actually allow them to continue doing so.
I have not met a brother yet.
My last refuge is go out and travelling. When I meet you, will you be able to show me Islam?
August 25th, 2006 at 10:17 am
for hanan .
salam
every day ashora day must be the day of donating blood in the sheaa community,you know just simple calculation,there is a milions of liters which can be used in order to save people,many people in the world and escpicially in the thierd world die from illneses concerning blood shortage while more than 400 milion people injure them self to initiate their beleifs.
August 25th, 2006 at 3:55 am
And by the way, whoever Luke is, and wherever you got that site from, and whoever reads it, should know that everything on there is absolute BULLSH*T! Not one of those articles are true. Some sad case who dislikes shia’s made all that up to make them look bad and sadly, many people who are ignorant of the truth believe it.
I’m just shocked at how low people can get.
Shias and Sunnis are both Muslims, there are differences but that doesn’t mean that they are two different religions, they believe in basically the same things, and they practice the same things too. You can’t blame the whole Shia community for this, like I said earlier, some take it to the extreme and some don’t, just like in every other religion. There’s good and bad everywhere and it really annoys me when people blame other peoples wrong actions on the religion. Islam does NOT tell muslims to kill non-believers or anything like that. I urge people who have doubts about what Islam is really about, to do some research from RELIABLE sources.
Otherwise, leave Islam alone, I never see people criticising what Christians, Jews, Hindus, Buddhists do, or any other religion for that matter. Why is it that Islam is ALWAYS targeted?!
Everyone should just accept the beliefs of others around them and should just focus on that person’s personality. A religion is supposed to be between an individual and their God.
And that’s all. So please be respectful towards others, and this goes for everyone.
August 25th, 2006 at 3:41 am
Ashura is a time where Shia Muslims mourn over the martyrdom of their Imam Hussein (as). While the majority of them attend lectures and seminars and engage in crying, others take it to the extreme and believe that they should go through what he went through in order to fully appreciate him and what he did. I’ve never actually seen this happen with my real eyes but when I do see them on the net I am totally horrified. It’s true that it is forbidden in Islam to harm ones self so I have no idea why they would do it but each individual interprets things differently.
April 25th, 2006 at 4:00 pm
I was just reading the comments, and was quite surprised to read what some people have been posting.
I would like to clarify some thigns.
First of all, off of the bat, I am shiite.
-No, we do not do demonic rituals or any of that crap.
-The only book that we adhere to is the Koran
-The Prophet is Muhammed
Regarding the self flagullation, it is practiced by many other faiths, including Christianity, just do a google search and see for yourself.
I remember going to the Ashura commemerations when I was younger, and saw people doing that to themselves. No one forced them to do it, it was all their personal choices, though I don’t agree with them cutting infants.
There is a small trend growing to donate blood instead of beating oneself, which I’m happy to see.
March 21st, 2006 at 9:19 am
Shias are muslims even though they differ in many practices from the Sunnis.
I don’t want to discuss the differences in detail on this site but accusations by some Sunnis that the Shia are disbelievers or vice versa (as I see in above comments) are wrong and as far as Islam is concerned not to be done casually.
March 20th, 2006 at 8:08 pm
Um, sorry to burst your bubble, but yes, Shias are muslims. I think some of you need to remember Husayn’s sacrifice of his livelyhood, his own life, that of his own children (young and old), and the honor of his sister bibi Zainab for the sake of islam, or else YoU all would be practicing a morbid and perverted Yazidi version of Islam, which would not be islam at all.
Every human has a right to express his grief. The shias have been victims of hostility for over a thousand years, but the revolution lives on with ‘ Ya Hussain’.
There are no ‘pagan’ rituals practiced on Ashura by Shias, the grief expressed is nowhere near that of Prophet Muhammad’s grief when told of his grandsons violent sacrifice.
The wahabis are afraid. Thats all this is about.
March 2nd, 2006 at 4:51 pm
True shiist are mostly ennemies of islam.
March 2nd, 2006 at 4:48 pm
I am a muslim, just let me confirm, this is really STUPID! There’s no celebration for the death of anyone in islam.
This day is related to prophet Moses when he crossed the sea. And muslims should’nt feel happy nor sad for that.
March 1st, 2006 at 6:49 pm
We have to nuke them NOW before it’s too late.
February 28th, 2006 at 7:43 am
I am not muslim, but I have observed that shiite muslims are particularly bizarre. They include alot of weird pagan practices into their religion, which is quite different from the sunni muslims. Shiites are real big on demonic rituals, and big on praying to “saints” or whatever they call them. If you want an incite on shiites I recommend the documentary “Mystic Iran”.
February 27th, 2006 at 3:22 pm
Abdul Aziz,
are U kidding - Shias are as Muslim as you are - the victim of the most horendous, hypocritical, so called religion. You and people like you are a typical example what can religion do to the human beings - making them blind, fanatical, intolerant and soaked with hate.
Wake up and be a normal human being. We all are one family on this planet…we do not god or prophet or anyone like that to enjoy life and share it with other living creatures!
February 27th, 2006 at 1:39 pm
Shia’s are not Muslim, and this has nothing to do with Islam. Prophet Muhammad never did this, neither did any of his companions.
Every innovation is misguidance, and those who are misguided will end up in the fire.
May Allah save us from misguidance, Ameen!
February 20th, 2006 at 2:13 am
I am all for self abuse - everybody should be free to do whatever they want to their own bodies.
What I don’t agree with is this idiocy being inflicted on innocent children.
I don’t give my children cigarettes, their forskins are all intact and they have no piercings at all.
February 18th, 2006 at 6:54 am
Almost as bizarre as chopping off the end of *someone else’s* foreskin ?
Almost as bizarre as the ritual drinking of blood and eating flesh of your prophet ?
Almost as bizarre as piercing your nipples, risking horrible infections, just for fashion ?
Almost as bizarre as deliberately poisoning yourself, several times a day, by inhaling toxic chemicals from your cigarrette ?
Shop around, there’s plenty of self abuse to choose from. I just listed a few that might be familiar to the western mind.
Leave these people alone, don’t pretend self righteousness to judge them.
Do they personally inflict this on you ?
February 18th, 2006 at 12:16 am
the whole shiitism has nothing to do with islam http://shiism.blogspot.com/
February 17th, 2006 at 9:49 pm
I found the documentary, it’s called “In the name of God - Scenes from the Extreme”
Info at the link below
http://www.cbc.ca/passionateeyesunday/feature_191003.html
February 17th, 2006 at 9:40 pm
These pictures are not fake. I have also seen this ceremony featured in a documentary but I can’t remember the name of it. They are real cuts.
They were even cutting the heads of childred and babies - babies whos skulls havent even fully formed to yet.
Idiots, complete idiots….
February 17th, 2006 at 8:04 pm
its a ceremony which they use artificial blood according to tell the crime which took place in KARBALA.The sunnis killed innocent people hundred years ago near Baghdad.Please search KARBALA.And the suicide bombers are Sunnis not Shias.Dont be so funny first learn about islam traditions.Sunnis killed Shias several times and this is a theater ceremony for those.Sunnis are very strict go and have some information using KARBALA and Shia on the net.
February 17th, 2006 at 3:46 pm
How are they fake David? Please share it with the rest of.
gasmonso
February 17th, 2006 at 3:30 pm
Uh, ppl, those pictures are fake.
February 17th, 2006 at 7:42 am
absolutely idiots
February 16th, 2006 at 10:39 pm
just remember that these are shia “muslims”
February 14th, 2006 at 8:23 am
lmao!!! that is #$*&@^@ed up!!
February 14th, 2006 at 2:51 am
this is wildnes and masochism. this pictures is not suitable for islam. I hope allah gives to find the right way them.
February 11th, 2006 at 11:05 pm
ı am muslim. but it is out of islam.
February 10th, 2006 at 12:21 pm
say, illini newspaper in chicago ran the cartoons, saw it on tv just now. WGN channel 9 chicago
February 10th, 2006 at 3:49 am
horrible! it is totally stupid, this ASHURA day is a special one because it is related to prophet moses ,that is true that at the same day al-hussien died
but anyway it is unacceptable to harm and bleed each others,everyone should respect his body
it is out of islam..it is a tradition in shiaa areas ,but not a worship by the way
February 9th, 2006 at 5:51 pm
this that parade where they throw tomatoes left over from an overgrown harvest at each other? needs salt
February 9th, 2006 at 2:02 pm
wow, that’s a bit extreme. Though I am supportive of being sad during this time of morning for what happened to Imam Husain was horrible I am not supportive of these types of over the top rituals.
February 9th, 2006 at 12:56 pm
Well, just not as much blood here in the States, but still people getting hurt in mass crowds and mobs.
February 9th, 2006 at 12:54 pm
Hmm, sorta reminds me of Holiday shopping here in the US. Which for some reason, I think is linked with religion.
February 9th, 2006 at 10:42 am
Oh, I prefered never to see this. I’m out of here.
February 9th, 2006 at 5:54 am
mentalists