Today is February 9, 2006 and you know what that means. It’s time to commemorate the martyrdom of Husayn ibn Ali, the grandson of Muhammad at the Battle of Karbala in the year 61 AH (AD 680). This tradition is better known as Ashura and is very popular amongst Shia Muslims. Many choose to spend the day performing mourning rituals or passion plays re-enacting the martyrdom. While most people march through the streets beating their chest, others emulate the suffering of Husayn by flagellating themselves with chains or cutting their foreheads until blood streams from their bodies.
Related posts:
- Happy Ashura!
- Happy Gai Jatra My Fine Hindu Friends!
- Benny Hinn–Let The Bodies Hit The Floor
- Happy Chrismahanukwanzakah Everyone
- Not So Happy Valentine’s Day For Muslims
July 5th, 2007 at 3:06 pm
well done, but i had no intention whatsoever to deceit, i can asure u.
ill be honest, i wrote under the three different names to strenghen our side of the debate.
this debate is good because it is impossible to use physical violence lol.
any way, i hope it can be made clear that there is a starting point, call it whatewver, but to us muslims it is allah (swt).
sorry for any inconvienience i amy have caused, how do find out ANY WAY SID LOL?
July 5th, 2007 at 12:58 pm
LOL, thanks for that piece of insight, some guy, but you’ve already posted under the name ‘muslim’ (and shia muslim). You have contributed to the debate and are thus not capable of offering an unbiased evaluation of the debate.
Not that you are really reading all of what I wrote. You responded to very few of the questions I put to you.
And by the way, what would Allah have to say about your attempt at deceit?
July 5th, 2007 at 12:46 pm
yo ppl,
looks like the muslims r winnin this debate,
the otha ppl r just makin excuses thats all
July 5th, 2007 at 12:56 am
Sorry for assuming stuff, it just how it sounded to me, on the other hand, I gave you the credit for trying to listen to it.
What I meant that there are verses didn’t make sense to past people, that people heard things about how the human-being devolpe inside the mother womb, how could they verify that, if it was true or not, thank Gos that the science now can verify such a thing.
People believed in Muhammed in past without a doubt, and that’s why God put some facts for people to see it when there is a doubt.
Regarding arguing that everybody claims that his religion has scientfic facts, I think tha’s not right, as you saw the Christian guy couldn’t answer 22 claims from the Muslim scholar and he said I plainly “I don’t know”.
At the end I thank you at least for taking the time watching the video, at least you are civlized person, and I really enjoyed arguing with you.
July 5th, 2007 at 12:11 am
Mohamed,
Please do not assume that you know how I felt. I thought the Christian guy was an annoying idiot. I thought the Muslim guy was slightly less annoying. Neither of them made any sort of logical argument. I just have a short attention span. I don’t even like watching action movies that are longer than 90 minutes. Villainizing me will not make your argument more valid. I could take a 4-hour religious debate, but the word debate means that there will be some logic behind the presentation. This was a 4-hour long pissing match by 2 people who both believe in religion.
Neither do I. I also don’t see any verses that agree with science. I see a religious text about religion. Yet the two men in the video saw verses that conflicted or agreed with science.
I challenge you to find ANY quote by a well-respected Muslim leader from ANY time where that leader claims that ANY verse of the Qur’an does not make sense.
No religious leader would every make a claim that a verse does not make sense. They will always come up with a good-sounding interpretation, and then when new knowledge comes out, they will change their interpretation. Every religious text is so vague and poetic that you can find “signs”. Christians claim the bible is full of “signs”, Muslims claim the Qur’an is, others claim Nostradamus wrote signs.
July 4th, 2007 at 10:37 pm
I don’t see any verses that confilict with science.
I’m sorry for giving you home work, I didn’t mean to make it as homework.
Quran is not science book, Quran is a signs book as the Muslims scholar said, he gives you signs, I’m sure these verses didn’t make sense for some people in past, but now it makes sense, you know why? because it’s directed for someone like you. Quran is for every time, it was challanginf for the Arab people because they are good poets, now is challanging for people how study science, which on the conrast, Bible in Torah can’t stand up for this challange, becuase they came for just one time.
Again sorry for making you watch the video, at least I can see now how you think, you liked the first part that the poor guy tried to bash Islam and he direct every accusations he has in his bag and even every Ethiest bag, and he didn’t even focus on his bible and what his bible saying, and then you didn’t like the part where the Muslim guy answered him and direct questions to the pastor, and that’s when the pastor’s face yale and turned yellow and he couldn’t answer one question.
And actually it’s mentioned in Quran, that when you face non-muslims by the signs in Quran, their face yale and they don’t what to say.
Thank God that he makes perfection in our religion, and made perfection in his book(Quran), thank God that he makes Quran a miracle.
July 4th, 2007 at 10:10 pm
The Qur’an does not talk about the fetus. The Qur’an has some poetic language which can be conveniently interpreted to mean this. Find me the words of a Muslim Leader from before the 1700’s that claims that these verses are about the fetus.
I hate when you make me repeat myself. Maybe if I put it all in bold…
EVERY book that is more poetic than prosaic can be interpreted to mean ANYTHING you want. I don’t care if the book is the the Qur’an, the Bible, the writings of Nostradamous, Moby Dick, or a collection of poems written by high-school students. If it is NOT written in clear, concise, textbook language, than it can easily be made to mean anything you want.
If god wants to predict future science, he should have his prophets write prose instead of poetry.
Here is a quote from the much-discussed Keith Moore (I added the bold):
Can you see the hole in the logic? Verses that fit with our current understanding of science are accepted as fact, while verses that do not will ONE DAY make sense? This presupposes that the Qu’ran is both infallible and actually talking about science.
Muslim scholars frequently (just listen to the 4 hours of video Mohamed assigns as homework) make this paradoxical argument: Because science is factual, verses that agree with the science prove that the Qur’an is infallible. Because the Qu’ran is infallible, verses which do not agree with science prove that science is not factual.
July 4th, 2007 at 9:52 pm
some ancient cultures that pre-date islam have had pretty advanced knowledge of astronomy.
Big lie, some of this facts that you claim was wrong, so you want me to understand that our prophet choosed the right information out of it, and he just took the right information, and why would he mention scientfic facts in Quran, where it doesn’t make sense for his people, and he didn’t know how to read ans write.
Boris, think about it before you post any answer, because you still make me laugh.
July 4th, 2007 at 5:03 pm
“the quran has made predictions that have come true, name me any other historical as old or older than this glorious book that talks about the foetus in its mothers womb, that talks about the solar and lunar eclipse and many other scientific stuff.”
some ancient cultures that pre-date islam have had pretty advanced knowledge of astronomy.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eratosthenes
information in the quran about astronomy was known hundreds of years before it was written by a man.
July 4th, 2007 at 4:41 pm
in the name of allah,the all merciful and the beneficent
to begin with ‘bismillah al rahman al raheem = in the name of allah the merciful and the compasionate/beneficent for your information sid….
there is a truth. and that truth must exist in the life of mankind, not just modern society otherwise the people of the past will not have access to it. allah is jsut and merciful.
the holy quran is a long lasting miracle. it is NOT justr an acient book. it is a book of wisdom and truth.
the quran has made predictions that have come true, name me any other historical as old or older than this glorious book that talks about the foetus in its mothers womb, that talks about the solar and lunar eclipse and many other scientific stuff.
we have the answer. this islam is not a theory, it is truth. and by the way those terrorists out ther dont represent islam. the may be muslims by name but what they ar edoing is no way islam. these are hypocrites who think by killing innocent people they will enter heaven, while in reality they are actually sinners who will go to hell.
and you athiests just put bunches of rubbish together in an attempt to disguise god. god exists and thats the truth, i guess it must hurt for someone to understand that what they have believing all their life is false.
and by the way just for your info, islam was no way spread by the sword. thats a lie. true islam is based on peace.
‘there is no obligation in relgion.’
most ppl r wasting their lives, there is a main target we must achieve in this life; to please allah by our good ations and refrain from sin.
allah you r merciful, protect me and guide me.
btw, i love the fairness of this debate whereas poor muhammed and i suppose 1 or two others are defending islam and the athiests are just talking rubbish or just put science together. try as hard as you want god will never be disguised.
July 4th, 2007 at 1:48 pm
Boris,
I know how hard for you to hear the truth, the guy that you made fun of, he knows 7 languages at least, so you are not even close in his knowledge, nor even education.
I will tell you why you liked the first hour, because that’s when the pastor was bashing Islam, the secong hour the Muslims guy showed the guy that what he is saying it’s just lies, and he put him questions in the bible to answer, the pastor answered one claim out of 23 scientfic claims the Muslims guy asked him about, and the pastor was answering I don’t know and he start to be evasive.
And that’s why the other 3 hours was painfull for you, you know why? it’s the truth in the last 3 hours, and truth hurts.
Good luck.
July 4th, 2007 at 1:11 pm
@andrew
excellent post. definitely sums up the quran videos very nicely. i’m impressed you lasted a whole hour through that… i gave up after 30 minutes or so. the arguments are painful for anyone who thinks for themselves.
July 4th, 2007 at 9:39 am
Mohamed,
I enjoyed the first hour or so of the video, but four hours just was too monotonous. The arguments were basically all the same.
Christian guy: In this verse of the Qur’an it says (something) which contradicts with the verse where it says (something else) and science which says (the right thing).
Muslim guy: You obviously don’t understand ancient Arabic. Because word (this) which you say means (that) actually means (something different). Not only that, it has several different meanings, and in verse 1 it means (this) and in verse 2, the same word means (that). Not only that, but verse 1 is fact, where verse 2 is just an allegory. Therefore, it’s easy to see that it doesn’t conflict with itself or science.
Repeat for 4 hours.
Yeah. Watching 4 hours of this actually just made my original opinion all that stronger. You can take any religious text, and interpret it to fit the facts of any scientific theory. Here’s how.
1. No one is still alive that speaks the language the text was written in. Even if it’s a language still in existence, language changes so rapidly that books written even 100 years ago can be hard to understand. Leverage this fact by claiming that a certain word or phrase means something different than what it seems to mean.
2. If that word is used in more than one place, make sure to point out that it can mean several things.
3. Find all verses, however trivial, that even appear to support the scientific theory. Repeat them loudly and often.
4. All verses that don’t fit the facts are parables, stories, allegories, or (if you are very brave) mistranslations.
(If anyone, for sheer entertaining value, would like to see me use the above process to show that Genesis 1 is about evolution, let me know.)
July 4th, 2007 at 9:22 am
To me is seems far more intellectually lazy to believe what an outdated book of allegorical poems tells me than to investigate truth myself through reading multiple sources, getting a college education, and then continuing to do research throughout my life. I can accept that there is an ultimate force — the laws of nature.
Modern religion MUST go together with science. The religions that choose not to must either die out, or attempt to rewrite science by social means (see Creationists). However, science does not need religion. The point I was making earlier is that Islamic scholars have changed their interpretation of the Qur’an to line up with modern science and then claimed that the Qur’an predicted modern science. Shoehorning a few verses of a religious text into science is intellectually dishonest.
I base my personal morality on what I feel is right and wrong. I do not blindly follow the words of religious leaders. My feeling of right and wrong does not come from god, it comes from portions of my mammal brain that have evolved due to natural selection. At some point we started down the path where animals that stick together had a better chance of surviving than those that did not. That unique selection pressure is the root of morality.
I do have rules to follow. Laws are enacted for the common good and survival of the society. I obey these laws, but not blindly. Luckily, I live in a country that has a process where if I feel a law is unjust, I can challenge it — or if I feel there needs to be a new law, I can propose it. My morality can adapt to any situation, without being forced to reinterpret an ancient, outdated book.
I would rather spend my short life improving myself, helping others, and building society, than wasting my time praying 5 times a day and meeting up to be lectured every Friday in hopes of achieving a fictional outcome.
July 4th, 2007 at 4:14 am
Doubt, that is a keyword.
I am afraid of people who do not have doubts as they are willing to do anything just because they no longer question themselves and the world around them. To them their actions are justified. To question their belief is blasphemy and that leads to a vicious circle of suffering as most people are angered by angry self righteous acts.
So doubt things if not for anything else but to get a short time to think over what you are going to do and is it really right or worth it.
July 3rd, 2007 at 7:18 pm
Howdy all,
Muslim, whilst I understand the premise of your arguments I don’t think have grasped some of the major concepts behind the athiest point of view. You seem to have tried to understand it through the filter of your own beliefs. In doing this you have made some generalisations and assumptions that lead to rather specious assertions. I would like to answer some of your questions from my point of view. I do this not to change your beliefs or to undermine your religion but in the spirit of understanding. It is my hope that once we both understnad each others point of view we can learn each respect and tolerance for each others beliefs.
“what is ur theory for creation, luck?â€
I don’t personally have a theory of creation. I do not know how the universe was created. I believe that the theory of eveloution is probably on the right track to explain how life on earth gained its current form. I am not sure however that abiogenisis theory is developed or supported enough yet to be considered anywhere near fact. It may be in the ball park but we just don’t know enough about life yet to make any solid conclusions. The big bang theory is a hard one for me. I really don’t know enough about the subject to really make any judgements about its veracity. I think that creation by a divine being is theoretically possible. However I believe the creation theory to be entirely unlikely and quite probably impossible. Now that I have stated what I do and do not believe I would like to put forward some explanation of why. With our current understanding of the universe around us I simply don’t believe that we can make any firm conclusions on how we came to be. Also given the practicalities of existing I believe that at this point in time it is largely irrelivant. I understand that some people have an almost primal need to explain the purpose for existance and seek out what they believe must be true. Believeing in something however does not make it true. I think that need for a purpose would serve us better if it was used to motivate investigation in the universe around us to solve the mysteries that the universe presents us with. As for creation being about luck, I don’t think so. Given the size and complexity of the universe I think that life was enevitable rather than a fluke.
“do u not value ur life?â€
Yes I do value my life. I do not use a divine being to ascertain that value however. I use experience, empathy, reason, emotion and logic to find value in my existance. Because I believe that this life is the only life I will have it becomes extraordinarily precious to me. As do the lives of others. While I am alive I want to use my life to effect some benifit to the world. Because I don’t believe in a God I have to create that benifit myself rather than leave it up to the unknowable will of some higher power. I hope that explains in some small way how one can find value in life without having to draw upon a diety. In fact I believe it to be arguable that not believing in a diety can force one to place a highly value on life.
“where u an accident? there is purpose in this life”
No I do not believe I was an accident. The best way to explain it would be to say that I think my existance is more of a consequence of the practicalities of existance. When us humans have children someone is going to be born. somebody will created that didn’t exist before. I don’t think this is an accident (and I don’t mean by the “parents didn’t plan it” definition) more the nature of current situation. As for a purpose in life, yes I believe that I have a purpose. I do not find my purpose from a god. I define my purpose myself. I decide for myself what I think are the best actions to effect positive (at least from my perspective) change upon the world around me. I choose to make a stand against an injustice, or to develop new technologies to help the world at large. There are plenty of opportunities in the world for a person to find a purpose and make a meaningful existance out of their life.
“i mean look at you athiests the minute som1 mentions god ur scared. u want to avoid any thing that may alter your way of thinking”
To me this statement is completely fallacious. I come to websites like this to engage in discussion about other peoples beliefs and views on God (ect) so that I can better understand them and widen my knowledge and point of view. I think you would find that to be the case with alot of the athiests here. As to the second part of your statement, I continually seek out new information so that I can alter my thinking. I wish to learn more so that I can change the way I view the world. I want my view and understanding of the universe to be a reflection of what is true.
I believe you are being very hypocrytical in your statement here. You assert that athiests wish to avoid anything that may alter thier way of thinking when your posts demonstrate that you refuse to alter yours. I do not want to alter your beliefs, I just want you to understand mine as I am trying to understand yours.
“in the holy quran it is repeated several times that god is one, even to us muslims. why? because to wash out any doubt, there is a surpreme force out there, call it allah call it god, the important this is there is a force out there.”
I value my doubt. It causes me to question and requestion everything I believe. In the face of new information it allows me to change my perspective,learn new concepts and discard ones that have been proven false. If I removed my doubt I would be stuck believeing what I do now. What if what I believe now is wrong. I have taken away a tool that would have allowed me to correct my mistaken belief and move closer and closer to the truth. If I ever find something that supports the assertion that there is a surpreme force existing then I will certainly have to change my views. It would be my doubt that allowed me to do that. I do not believe that a holy text of any description is sufficent to prove it beyond a doubt no matter how many times it makes the assertion. There may (or may not) be merit in the quran. All the indicators that I have learnt at this stage suggest to me that the concept of a divine creator is (at the very least) unlikely.
“to be honest i think ur lazy, u cant accept that theer is an ultimate force out there so u try and replace it with various theories”
I would just like to point out on this one that developing thoeries to explain the way the universe works takes alot of work. Furthermore that work is far from complete. Now I will admit that I didn’t develop these theories myself. I have spent a large portion of my life learning, studying and thinking about them to decide on there merit rather than just accepting them however. I fail to see how this is lazy. I also spent alot of time studying religion to see if it had any merit. I would say that this is the opposite of lazy. Unlike many of the christians I know, I studied both sides and used all the information I had at hand to slowly build up my concept and beliefs on how the universe works. Alot of my christians friends just took what they where told by their reigous teaches as fact and refused to consider the other side. I can see how that could be considered lazy by I would doubt that to be true either. I would consider it more naive if anything.
“if there is no religion then what are you basing your actions on, infact what are u basing ur morality on”
This does seem to be a common misconception from religous types. There are many tools a person can use to devlop their morality without having to invoke any form of divine will. The other misconception is that athiests use their scientific thoeries and concepts (i.e. eveloution and survival of the fitest) as the basis of morality. This is not true. An explanation of how something may work or came about is not a datum for defining the difference between right and wrong. The only people I know of who have considered it in that light are those who use a God as the source of their morality. I don’t need god to reason out what is fair. I can use empathy and reason to understand the affect my actions will have on others. I can use my own experience to learn about the consequnces of my actions. I can talk to other people and learn different perspectives on what is right and wrong. I can use my own emotions to understand the basic nature of other people. I can feel my own pain, anger, suffering and grief and realise that I do not want to be the cause of such suffering in others. I am not going to write down how I judge every situation or how my moral code works. I think it is sufficient for you to understand some of the basic tools that can be used to develop a basis for morality and know that I have a code of morality. I would also like to add that I believe that with the world changing as fast as it is we must continue to strive to to develop or collective morality to ensure a fair and just society. I cannot see how that can be done using only the teaching of very old documents written in a time before many of the issues we now face where even dreamed of. I know that Christians and muslims believe that in the divinty of their particular god the rules aplly today as much as they did in the past. I however believe that continueing to cling to such outdated codes of morality create a system that is neither fair or just. However this is a discussion for a different time.
I hope that that will give you some idea of my view on the world and help us both to reach a higher level of tolerance and understanding of each other.
Cheers
Simon Bond
July 3rd, 2007 at 6:32 pm
Sidfaiuw,
to answer your question about reapeating things in Quran, it appears for somebody that it repeating, but it’s not, when God repeated something in Quran you always a new peiece of information, and sometimes repeating for assurance, in alot of parts in Quran I thought it’s repeating, but whem I heard the explanation, I understood it was repeating, it was just my limited knowledge that didn’t know, and I really want to improve my skills reading the Quran.
“Christians say the exact same thing about the Bible. So how am I to tell which group is correct? My bet is on neither.”
I can give you link for video for debate for Christian pastor and Muslim scholar and the debate was between science in Bible and Quran, but the video is 4 hours, and I don’t know if you have the time to know some facts you might even know about it before, I will be happey to provide you with the links, if you want.
July 3rd, 2007 at 5:17 pm
Hello muslim,
Can you tell me what “bismillah al rahman al rahim” means? You’ve written it three times now, so I am curious. Speaking of needless repetition…
“if something is true, and it is repeated that does not mean it is no longer true.”
I never seen anyone try to show something untrue by repeating it. I have, however, seen many a Muslim repeat something over and over again as if repetition makes it true. Moving on to another point about repetition…
“the beauty of religion is that we have a guidline to follow, to tell us right from wrong etc. what do u base your morality on?”
Instead of repeating my answer, I’ll just ask you to re-read my comment #177.
“u believe in no god, hence you have no rules to follow and thus are unguided.”
First of all, I think you misunderstood my last comment. I happen to believe in God, I just think that religions give God a bad name by making shit up about It. Also, since you chose not to read the link I provided when I first responded to you, I’ll copy-and-paste it here for your convenience:
“by scared i do not mean frightened, i mean u dont like it, u wish to avoid it.”
Ah, thanks for the clarification. But still, I must point out that you are incorrect. Many of the atheists who frequent this site jump at the opportunity to have a rational discussion about God, mostly focusing on questions of existence. They are active counter-examples to your false claim.
“the quran is only 1 peice of evidence, its predictions, most thing mentioned in the quran have already taken place, so the other things are reliable, what will ahppen on the day of judgement.
Christians say the exact same thing about the Bible. So how am I to tell which group is correct? My bet is on neither.
I could go on, but I’ve already written a lot for you to read. Let me know what you think.
July 3rd, 2007 at 4:30 pm
there is no god but allah, muhammed is his final messenger and ali was entitiled to the calipha after him.
shias and sunnis are brothers/sisters. we should put our differences aside.
July 3rd, 2007 at 4:07 pm
bismillah al rahman al rahim
by scared i do not mean frightened, i mean u dont like it, u wish to avoid it. if something is true, and it is repeated that does not mean it is no longer true.
the reason us muslims pray five times a day and not one is because allah (swt) wants us to constantly remember him. he created us, the least we can do is obey him.
when i say way of thinking, i am refering to in terms of religion. u believe in no god, hence you have no rules to follow and thus are unguided.
the beauty of religion is that we have a guidline to follow, to tell us right from wrong etc. what do u base your morality on? ur parents i suppose, but what do they base theirs on.
if u r born into an athiesrt family then u have been nertured into thinking what u do, u will not change unless u explore evidence for both sides.
to be honest muhammed seems to be doing pretty well coping with ur questions. i mean look at u, u are putting loads of theories together in an attempt to disguise god.
when someone uses god as an explanation, athiests dont like it (thats why they r athiests), they want to disguise it thats what i mean by scared.
i mean take dan barker for example, a christian preacher for 19 or something yrs, until he was impatient and decided to forget his ideas. thats not only lazy but unthankfull.
us humans are blind in a way, if we cant see somthing as far as we know it doesnt exists. wher you there at the time of the prophets when they displaid their miracles by the order of their lord. no. so to you god does not exist.
yet the cleverer ppl, will say ‘ look just because i cant see somthing does not mean it doesnt exist’,
the quran is only 1 peice of evidence, its predictions, most thing mentioned in the quran have already taken place, so the other things are reliable, what will ahppen on the day of judgement. but then again u probably havnt read the quran, it might persuade you that there is a creator!
then obviously thisn life is just a game to u, u have fun and die, there is no value, as long as you dont get hurt ort punished in this life youll be happy. wrong.
we have morals. when we do a bad action its pleasure is always outweighied by its guilt. its pleasure may be short but its guilt is longer lasting.
it is almost the opposite for doing a good action, its pleasure is long lasting and their is no guilt.
July 3rd, 2007 at 3:46 pm
Sid, you evil! :)
I am afraid that your answer to “what is ur theory for creation, luck?†will confuse our friend muslim. I am “afraid” that the terms: Deist, Agnostic or even worst Deist-Agnostic are very confusing to many of our theistic friends, even though they will never admit this. :p
And to answer to question of muslim“i mean look at you athiests the minute som1 mentions god ur scared.†that is just illogical. You see atheists do not believe in god. Therefore there is nothing to be afraid. Unless you consider that you still may be afraid of something you do not believe in?
July 3rd, 2007 at 3:05 pm
“u love taking an indirect way around a question”
Um, I directly quoted one of your questions and posted a response. Did you read my comment? I’ll answer your additional questions if you’d like.
“what is ur theory for creation, luck?” Creation of what? The universe? To be honest, God did it, though I’m not sure what God is.
“do u not value ur life?” of course I do. What kind of question is that?
“where u an accident?” Yeah, I suspect my parents didn’t plan for me since I was born while my father was still in college. Based on that, I’d have to say I’m an accident :) Okay, here’s my serious answer: If by ‘accident’ you mean ‘randomly’ then no, I see no reason to accept actual randomness in the universe.
“i mean look at you athiests the minute som1 mentions god ur scared.”
Well, I’m not exactly an atheist, though you’d probably consider me one. But none of the atheists I know are frightened by God. Have you ever met an atheist in person? Have you ever gotten to know one? My guess is that you would be scared if you didn’t believe in God. Thankfully, not everyone is like you. Is belief the only thing that keeps your fear away?
“u want to avoid any thing that may alter your way of thinking”
Look in the mirror, my friend. I have changed my way of thinking many times on my life based on learning new things. When was the last time you altered your way of thinking?
“in the holy quran it is repeated several times that god is one, even to us muslims. why? because to wash out any doubt, there is a surpreme force out there, call it allah call it god, the important this is there is a force out there.”
Why is it that Muslims seem to think that repeating something enough times makes it true? Mohammed, could you shed some light on this? I don’t care how many times something is written in the Qur’an. Repetition does not equal truth.
July 3rd, 2007 at 2:44 pm
u love taking an indirect way around a question
i am asking u, what is ur theory for creation, luck? do u not value ur life? where u an accident? there is purpose in this life, there is meaning. that meaning is set by a way of living i.e religion.
i mean look at you athiests the minute som1 mentions god ur scared. u want to avoid any thing that may alter your way of thinking, in the holy quran it is repeated several times that god is one, even to us muslims. why? because to wash out any doubt, there is a surpreme force out there, call it allah call it god, the important this is there is a force out there.
July 3rd, 2007 at 2:34 pm
“without morality society is corrupt”
Bullshit. See this comment where I address the very same false claim made by a Christian.
“if there is no religion then what are you basing your actions on, infact what are u basing ur morality on.”
I’ve addressed this a number of times, I’ll lazily copy-and-paste a former response here:
July 3rd, 2007 at 1:59 pm
bismillah al rahman al rahim
andrew, to be honest i think ur lazy, u cant accept that theer is an ultimate force out there so u try and replace it with various theories, am i right? most scientific explanations are theories, however who is to say that science and religion cant go together, infact look at the quran, it makes scientifically correct statements, if there is no religion then what are you basing your actions on, infact what are u basing ur morality on. without morality society is corrupt, u might as well be putting all ur desires into practice, if u hav no rules to follow…
the is no compulsion in religion, religion is a guidline to enter heaven, god asks u one question, do u want this life which is finate or the herafter which is infinate?…
July 3rd, 2007 at 1:56 pm
bismillah al rahman al rahim
andrew, to be honest i think ur lazy, u cant accept that theer is an ultimate force out there so u try and replace it with various theories, am i right? most scientific explanations are theories, however who is to say that science and religion cant go together, infact look at the quran, it makes scientifically correct statements, if there is no religion then what are you basing your actions on, infact what are u basing ur morality on. without morality society is corrupt, u might as well be putting all ur desires into practice, if u hav no rules to follow…
the is no compulsion in religion, religion is a guidline to enter heaven, god asks u one question, do u want this life which is finate or the herafter which is infinate?
July 3rd, 2007 at 2:51 am
@Mohammed,
Well, Andrew already answered most of the stuff you said just one more thing:
Mohammed was a trader for YEARS before he became a “prophet” not to mention that his wife’s brother Waraqa ibn Nawfal was the follower of some other Abrahamic religion(I think it was christianity), so he definitely has been in touch with:
1. MANY different cultures(traders went to India and other places IIRC).
2. both of the abrahamic religions of that time.
3. men of status whom he met during his trade and learned from.
4. poets and the like, since he resided in Mekka.
So don’t tell me “he couldn’t have known about it, he was illiterate” because no one is claiming he read it, it is sufficient for him to hear it from someone. Back then word of mouth was the best way to learn, the internet and printing press didn’t yet exist you know.
July 2nd, 2007 at 4:06 pm
@some guy
I am an atheist. The point of many of my arguments on this thread is that when you interpret “holy” texts, you can always come up with something that sounds convincing. The simple fact it that the texts are too poetic to make prosaic arguments.
When I am done watching the 4 hours of video Mohamed has assigned me (which may take a few days), I’ll post something a little more clear.
July 2nd, 2007 at 2:12 pm
yo andrew, are u an athiest or theist, ur arguement is unclear…
July 1st, 2007 at 9:59 pm
Andrew, I really appreciate your argument, but I don’t claim I know a lot, I will show you link for videos.
The video is for debate between Chritstian pastor and Muslims scholar, and the Christian Pastor ask all the questions on your mind and more, and the Muslim scholar answered them clearly.
If you really have time and you want to see the video and see opinion from somebody knows more than me and you I promise you that you will find interesting discussion.
Before you see it, I’m not interested to convert any body, or convince any body, I’m trying to answer you claims as far as I know, but I feel I’m not the best for that, so that’s the only way that I can answre you, and thank god for the Internet exist to show people other people opinion.
Here is the first part of the debate, and the debate consist of parts, so I will provide you with the first part, and I’m sure you are Utube savvy, and you will see that you can acquire the rest of the debate, and if you couldn’t get, I will be more than happy to provid you with the rest of it.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=9155217310817697706.
Thank you I hope you enjoy the video, and I hope Agony watch the 4 parts of the video, and he will know the answrs for his question too.
July 1st, 2007 at 8:47 pm
Mohamed,
You really have just proven my point. We chose to look at different aspects of the word “fire” and came to totally separate conclusions.
Lets look at the idea that “God created man from dust” a common belief to all Abrahamic religions.
The phrase used to be interpreted to mean that because bodies decompose and turn into soil, man is actually made out of dirt.
Then people found out about how decomposition works and learned about chemicals and elements so they changed it to mean that people are made out of the same stuff as the soil.
When science advanced to show that the chemical composition of soil isn’t the same as of humans the viewpoint changed that it must mean that people are made of the same elements as the planet Earth. (Of course they are. We are from this planet — we have to be made of the same stuff.)
I have even heard it taken to the next step and interpreted to mean that people are made from atoms just like everything in the universe. Atoms are small, like dust is small, but God couldn’t explain atoms to whoever he said the phrase to, so he used the word dust.
Then the coup de grâce, instead of looking at the above and saying, “Wow, religious interpretation sure has changed to adapt to current knowledge,” the religious person says, “See, God told (insert name here) about modern science!”
July 1st, 2007 at 6:34 pm
My friend, with due respect, you can see fire and you can feel but you can hold it, and that’s doesn’t apply to human-being, and that the case about Gen and devil, they are from fire, you can’t release them, they are so fast.
July 1st, 2007 at 5:19 pm
Mohamed,
The beauty of religion is that one can always interpret anything in a way that makes sense with current knowledge. In fact I can interpret your two “contradictions.” So just in case any future editions of holy texts are discovered with this in them…
See, anyone can write this kind of stuff. All the religious texts are so vague and antiquated that you can always interpret them any way you choose.
July 1st, 2007 at 4:34 pm
Agony,
This link is BS and you know that, there is no way for Muhammed to know that, Mohamed didn’t know how to read and write, the other thing his community didn’t even has books or what ever the link you provided claims.
The links put claims that there are contrdiction in what god says, contridiction is why I say you are saying the truth and then I say you are liar, contrdication is two facts can’t be togather, but what the links mentiond is all facts exist in human being, he created from dust, see the elements in human-being and the earthe, they both the same, may be greater may be less, but they still the same, God said he created man from water, that’s another fact, it’s not contrdication, he created him from Semens, that’s another fact, he created him from nothing, that’s another fact.
All of this facts, there is no contridication, the elments of the earth and the water, and the semens, that’s what the human being created from, it doesn’t have to be in one verse, but all make sense, and there is no contridction.
What would be contridction, if God says he created human being from fire or light, which is not fact and contrdict what the human being created from.
Good try any way, try to find something better next time.
July 1st, 2007 at 3:39 pm
carrying on….
you decide if you want to choose this life over the hereafter, this life is finate, you can ask an idiot and even he/she will tell you that, however the herafter is everlasting. all this is based on belief, believe in you lord and the holy quran. the quran is a book of truth and guidance. this is one of the miracles, i think it was you who was asking earlier what was special about the prophets (peace be upon them all), and why do we believe their word. the prophets (pbut), were infaliable they were sinless, by the order of god, they revealed miracles in order to support their claim, for instance prophet moses and the splitting of the sea or the changing of the staff into a snake, these are the kinds of things that if you saw you would understand that there is a supreme force out there which is only one.
but you were not there and you could not see it for your self, (another point about freewill, do you choose when you are born?), however the quran is a long lasting miracle, suphanallah, at the time poetry was popular, when teh prophet of allah (saww) read it aloud, even the great poets at the time acknowledged this as true poetry that could not be man written, notice how the holy quran is the only book whereby god is the primary author (ie the quran is the word of god), even in the holy quran when a prophet makes a statement allah commands him, QUL (SAY), (yeah i know muslim boy made that point as well),
wow the quran, truely a book of glory.
July 1st, 2007 at 3:26 pm
in the name of allah, the all merciful and compasionate
@agony
you cannot have full freewill, otherwise you would decide when and where you die, also you would not be limited and you would be able to obtain freely your desires, and in a way that may impair someone else’s freewill, hence they would not have full freewill.
therefore
if you had full freewill someone else wouldnt and then that would mean not everyone had freewill
for example…
if someone had the freewill do do what they wanted and they were planning to drive somewhere, however on the way, using your freewill you decided to drive your car into theirs and killing them, how does that work, in the same way the above example about the cafe was given.
nor is their a full predistened system, because god is just he is aware of what you are going to do, he knows if you will fail or succed in this life. but would it be fair for god to put you in hell even if he knows your going to fail before you actually doing your bad actions?
god is just, he will punish you after you have commited a bad action, not beforehand.
god has provided us with hands, legs, eyes etc however he has given us the freewill to decide what we want to use them for.
neither are we predestined or have complete freewill, there is a justical balance, our lord is all knowing and all powerfull….
you decide
June 28th, 2007 at 3:32 am
Mohammed,
Here’s your claim about islam and embryology:
http://www.answering-islam.org/Quran/Science/embryo.html
If god hates it I guess he didn’t plan it now did he? so we have free will to divorce a wife chosen for us by god? kinda makes no sense.
And just to be clear: if God already knows that i’m gonna fail in today’s exam, how can any amount of studying and preperation change that? apparently I do not have freewill even in that matter.
June 27th, 2007 at 7:59 pm
Agony, it seems like we have miss-communcation between me and you, and I still didn’t get your question?, I don’t mean that it’s your fault, I might not smart enough to get what you mean.
About divorce I don’t really know, I can’t guess an asnwer if I don’t know it ( the only think I know about it, divorce is the most permissablt thing that God hate, so my thinkig about that it’s free will, but I don’t know and God knows better.
Answering Anderw, life is test, so if you know when you are dying, you will do what ever for 58 years and then lase 2 or 3 years stay repenting god, which doesn’t make sense.
Agony you didn’t comment that Quran explained how the baby form in his mom’s womb, do you think Muhammed was scinetest or it was just lucky guess from his part, and as I promised I have video on Utube to approve my words and from non Muslims scientest.
June 27th, 2007 at 7:52 pm
What I am trying to say is that you can not have an omniscient god and freewill at the same time.
If god knows the future and is never wrong then you can not choose to do anything contrary to his prediction.
June 27th, 2007 at 5:22 pm
@Mohammed,
Not evidence, a stream of logical arguments beginning with what we all agree on and ending with whatever you want to show would be nice.
I think I did mention the contradictions to you in another thread here, and specifically about the example you’re talking about. IIRC you just put your fingers in your ears and sang “na na na na na that guy said it’s right so it has to be”
Let me try to reform my question a bit: Your spouse(which god chose for you) turns out to be a stupid mother f***ing b**ch, who let a man have a quiet minute to pray, fast or go to Mekkah(for fear she might kill the children). Is god deliberately sending him to hell?
Also, is Divorce freewill or predetermined by god?
@shii’tte muslim,
Using a verse in the quran to prove the quran being right is circular logic and doesn’t work.
June 27th, 2007 at 1:22 pm
in the name of allah, the glorious the merciful
people,
@ agony
mohammed is right, the quran has no mistakes
“this book, there is no doubt in it, it is a gauide for those who gaurd against evil” (2:2)
this holy quran is a miracle,
@ andrew
u r tryin 2 say we dont have freewill? thats what i mean when i say there is a limit, we cant have complete freewill otherwise what u just said would be impossible because it would mean we choose our death place and time.
allah is so just that he has provided us with a balance of freewill. look at this life, how can anybody say this life is the final, this is a life which is used for us to make our moves either good or bad. without this life as a testing environment, allah allah uses our actions as evidence for putting us in hell or in heaven.
and a s for scientists, i didnt say they shouldnt use science (ie observing nature), i meant they should have used the quran as well.
this debate is purely for someone to express their opinions, for example earlier muhammed and muslim boy were comparing their differences, they aim is not to convert anyone, and btw the idea of islam being spread by the sword is outrageous, TRUE islam is a religion of peace. thats TRUE ISLAM, not what tehse terrorists are going around doing an dclaiming to be islam, if anything these terrorists are hypocrites and infact are doing the complete opposite of what true islam teaches.
thats y in modern society there is such few ppl who actually obey the rules of true islam and allah the all glorious and compasionate will reward them.
we have many choices, it is up to us what we believe in. allah is just, he will judge an individual based on their living conditions in this life. thats why allah is the best of judges, he is all knowing.
o my lord o allah, you are merciful yet mankind is unthankfull, protect us from evil,
you are the greatest of teh great.
June 27th, 2007 at 11:02 am
The simple question I would like you to answer, Mohammed, is how can someone have free will if the time of their death is already known? If Allah knows that they will die at exactly 4:32 pm on July 14th, 2014, then how can they truly be free to make choices that affect the outcome of their life?
June 26th, 2007 at 8:08 pm
Agony, how could I get him evidence, I talked about experience and things I have seen.
You assert that I shouldn’t compare between somebody born in a bad circumstances and somebody have a nice parents, and I’m telling you it doesn’t work that way, you are the who can change your life, you have a free will, God put you in test, to see if you are able to get out of it or not, and believe me all people get this test(circumstances) somehow.
So if your spouse is writting in the sky, that’s not just.
By the way Quran has no mistakes, Quran described accuratly how the baby form in his mom womb, and you can check the Quran and check the scintest descreption, and I can get you videos approving my word, and show you scientest approving the Quran description, and if you want the Ayah I will get it for you.
June 26th, 2007 at 7:56 pm
@Mohammed, do us all a favor and re-read what he said. You are merely repeating yourself.
@shii’tte muslim,
If scientist studied your Quran instead of observing how nature works we’d still be riding donkeys and doing prayers for rain. Seriously there are just so many mistakes in the quran I wonder how anybody can read it without seeing at last some!
And I always thought you either have free will or you don’t. is there something like “yeah you do have free will, but I have predetermined that whatever you chose your spouse will end up being ms.X, you have no free will in that matter”?
June 26th, 2007 at 6:43 pm
Arktis,
Just let Boris says what he wants, mostly I don’t care about what he says, the other thing he called me something I would like to be, if I understood him right.
I don’t my point is wrong, I think if somebody leave every thing to circumstances, and give up, there will be no hope.
NBA players, don’t forget that NBA player is graduated from college too, and if you notice most of them are good managers after finishing their career, they just used what they are good at, while the other they didn’t even bother to see what they are good at and go from there, the other keep crying and they didn’t fight, do you think it’s God fault, that they want to earn fast money.
I knew a lot of people had a horrible circumstances, but they were able to get out of it, because they didn’t keep crying that they discrminated against, and their father didn’t help them.
You can change your life and you have the choice to do it, is it god fault that you might be a friend for a bad person who drags you drug and etc.
June 26th, 2007 at 2:10 pm
i didnt get ur last post about the prophet saws and us being limited?
What is being debated at this current tym?
June 26th, 2007 at 2:08 pm
carrying on: … unable to see somthinhg does not means it does not exist’
June 26th, 2007 at 2:04 pm
in the name of allah, the merciful, the all compasionate
salam alaykom, brothers/sisters, it is very hard to argue if freewill exists if the opposing side of the arguement fails to acknowledge gods existence. at the moment, brother muhammed seems to be doing a good job.
we have been given freewill to use, however if we fail to control it the result of that freewill may have an affect on others. for example, the example set by brother andrew about the suicide bomber (i don’t think there was any need to call it an islamist extremist, extremist on its own would have been sufficient)and the people in the cafe.
the suicide bomber had the freewill to become a suicide bomber or to not become one. by choosing to do what he/she this, their freewill has resulted in the death of others.
if allah (swt) has provided us with freewill but at a limited level, if we had coomplete freewill then life itself would be impossible because humans have so much impact on each other, the world is not perfect, there is all sorts of bad things going on and it is vital we are patient and do our best to impress no other than God through good deeds and refraining from sin.
i mean look at today’s world, look at all the unjust people going without being properly punished, all the terrorists who are destroying lives and causing mayhem, and on top of that claiming it top be true islam!
oh allah, you are so merciful, yet we humans are so ignorant and unthankful.
“most surely man is ungrateful to his lord (allah)” (100:6)
people have come up with many theories to try and develop the idea that god was not the creator. remember these are only theories, they cannot ever become fact without proper evidence like for instance the holy quran.
how amazing the holy quran is, prophet musa (pbuh) had his miracles as well as prophet issa (pbuh), but the holy quran was one of the miracles of allah who revealed it to muhammed (saw). no one could change the holy quran, from the beggining till now not one word has changed from this glorious book that just by reading it or listning to its recitation you feel spirtitually elavated.
this is not only a book that clarifies god’;s existance but also look how it informs us about science. if scientists had bothered studying this holy book, they may have had the results much earlier. this is a book of glory, if we follow it we shall be successfull.
may allah have mercy upon us all
i remember someone asking that why would we believe the word of the prophet (saww). here we go back to the point were us humans are limited, were we must see something in order to believe in it. just because we were
June 26th, 2007 at 3:58 am
…and can not, since it would be IMPOSSIBLE for anymore than a few.
Also, is name calling really the best thing, boris?
June 26th, 2007 at 3:56 am
Not only that, for most of them, basketball was the only way out. It only stands to reason that some of them would make it, but obviously the vast majority do not.
June 26th, 2007 at 2:23 am
@mohamed
we all know NBA players are not exactly prone to drug use, crime, and other sorts of anti-social behaviour. way to argue, haji.
June 26th, 2007 at 1:38 am
Please, clearly demonstrate a logical path from a to b, otherwise you aren’t actually making an argument. You are simply making an assertion, which is probably best understood as an opinion not backed up by rational thought, or at least not demonstrating rational thought.
I know you posses intelligence and you CAN do it if you try. It’s just that I don’t think you are grasping the difference between how you are communicating and what is practical (good in and/or for practice; in application, applicable to reality, or logical).
I’m sorry if this sounds mean.
June 26th, 2007 at 1:18 am
That’s the difference between somebody who believs and somebody who don’t, if you believe, you know it’s test, you can’t give up, that’s what Muslims is about, you get test after one, and you say thank God.
I really don’t believe in psycology, it doesn’t explain alot, it’s just way to explain behavior, which is not accurate most of the time.
You can see a lot of NBA players, raised in bad cirumstances, but they were able to make it through, they didn’t cry, they worked hard to reach where they are now.
And you see alot of rich well raised people coming from a good family, and they fall for drugs.
One more thing, I’ve seen alot of people who went crazy with no reason, and yet psycology has now asnwer for it.
I’m not against scince, I just against some of it, and it turn out to be the Psycology and Evolution is explaination for man creation(theories).
June 26th, 2007 at 12:40 am
You guys are just arguing nature vs. nurture, except Mohamed seems to think that nature is by choice, for which there is little to no evidence. You’re born with a basic set of instructions that forms who and what you are; you can’t chose this, you’re just born with it. After that, pretty much everything else is decided by environment. There is very little, if any, free will.
On the other hand, I would like to think my resistance to “the ways of the world” is not merely genetic or learned from my parents or a combination of the two. Still, that doesn’t mean it is true, but I honestly would like to think it is a result of conscious choices based on somewhat reasonable evaluations - evaluations, I might add, which I was afforded the luxury of by my environment, despite the gripes I’ve had with it over the years.
Free will? Not likely, but if true, is minuscule compared to the sheer magnitude of predetermination. We do after all, live in a universe governed by the linear laws of cause and effect.
Mohamed, I think you are ignoring this in your assertion that hard times are ultimately tests that we can decide to pass or fail. Surely in many cases, such an attitude would be beneficial, but in the long term it is better to face the cold facts of reality or else face further suffering due to not dealing with the problems you face in a more rational manner.
June 25th, 2007 at 11:59 pm
Are you trying to tell me that the way a child was raised does NOT affect his personality?
You sir are contradicting basic psychology.
June 25th, 2007 at 6:15 pm
Every humanbeing has a hard times sometimes and face a lot of tests, you always has brain and mind to think about it.
You can choose your fate, either cry and blame everybody, or take the test and go through it and be a better person.
It’s easier to blame circumstances than go through it.
June 25th, 2007 at 2:51 am
@Muslim Boy,
Don’t worry we’re all more or less kids here.
@Muslim Boy, Mohammed,
Let’s take this scenario:
A child is born in an urban area, drugs, crime, even murder are things he sees everyday. That kid has a much higher probability to become a criminal than kid that was raised in a proper family, went to a nice school and watched the nice cartoons in his free time.
They certainly both do have free will, but some are more free than others. How does god’s perfectly free will hold up against such situations?
you can take other examples such as a family where his parents abused him, doesn’t affect my question.
June 24th, 2007 at 1:44 pm
Thank Muslims boy for debating, it was honor to debate with you.
June 24th, 2007 at 12:04 pm
Omniscience can not logically coexist with free will. If God already knows what will happen, then it is impossible to choose differently than what God predicts.
There is a simple magic trick to show how this works. The magician asks you to pick a card out of what appears the be a standard deck of playing cards and put in in your pocket. You pick the 3♣. He then hands you a sealed envelope with a piece of paper inside. You open the envelope and it reads, “The card in your pocket is the 3♣. You appear to have free will, because you were allowed to choose your card. However, the deck wasn’t a standard deck — all the cards in it were the same card. That is the way that the magician knew with 100% certainty what your card was when he wrote the letter and sealed in in the envelope.
An omniscient God is like that magician. We have the illusion that we are making our own choices, but our choices have already been made for us by the very fact that God already knows the answer.
But there is an answer to this. Believe that God is near-omniscient. If God were very, very good at statistics he would be able to PREDICT our behavior with uncanny accuracy without KNOWING it.
The magician this time has a much larger deck of cards. Ten billion cards, in fact. All but one are the 3♣, the other is an A♥. The magician will hand you the same envelope. He is know longer 100% certain, but will only be wrong 1 time in 10 billion. There is a very strong chance he will never be wrong in your lifetime or even in hundreds of lifetimes. And when he is wrong, his agent can just sweep it under the carpet.
A God that is very, very good at statistics and very experienced can seem omniscient without giving up free will. Of course, this is heresy in all the Abrahamic religious (except some extreme offshoots).
June 24th, 2007 at 11:31 am
“IN THE NAME OF ALLAH, THE BENEFICENT, THE ALL COMPASIONATE”
Salam alaykom dear brothers and sisters,
@ agony,
its nice to see that you have asked this question as it is a very good one,
from a muslim point of veiw, allah (swt), has not predestined our fate, as he is all knowing he is aware of our future actions but has given us the freewill of choosing what it is. if thisn was not true, then this life would be pointless as we would not be able to control our moves and on the day of judgement god would be punishing us for something that was out of our control and hence would neither be merciful of just of him.
the exammple you gave about the man and the moslem lady, he still had the freewill to not convert, but he made his decision to convert. i hate it when people say that islam was spread by the sword that is WRONG. not once has the word sword neither how to use it been used in the holy quran. islam is a religion supporting peace and justice, those islamic extremist aka terroruists are hypocrites and are damaging true islam.
brother agony, im sorry if i can not offer more, i really appreciate your time in posing these questions, but im only a kid im limited in providing an answer, if you want you can listen to lectures and read books about the subjects from different veiwpoints. (hassanain rajabali is a good example of a lecturer, hes very good)
i hope my lord allah (swt), can provide you with the answers you need through his infinate mercy,
and as for you brother muhammed it has also been a pleasure debating with you,
mashala you both are intelligent people and may allah bless you all.
June 24th, 2007 at 10:56 am
I got what you mean now, it’s really good point and I had this question for some Muslims about this issue I think from 10 years ago, I really didn’t get clear answer, which because the people that I asked, actually didn’t know a lot about Islam, I’m really happy you asked me this question, because that’s something I want to know too. Right now I don’t have an answer for it, which means that I don’t know.
The only thing that I know is God is merciful, and he knows who know about Islam and who didn’t, and God will judge everybody with just and I think that 9/11 might hurt Muslims as individuals, but I think it served Islam big deal, because as you said alot of people didn’t know about Islam, so after 9/11 they tried to read and know about Islam, and some of those found that Islam is different than the media shows up, and they converted.
I think everbody knows about Islam now, but I still search for answer for your question and I hope I find tha answer soon.
June 24th, 2007 at 5:29 am
@Mohammed,
That’s simply not what I meant.
Take a man who spent his life not knowing much about islam, but he met and fell in love and married a woman who so happened to be a moslem, and showed him the truth about islam. I say him marrying that particular woman made him convert(not FOR the woman, but because she showed him - as you’d call it - the light).
So how exactly does free will stack up against that?
(I could make the same argument about money: someone who has more than enough money might get an internet connection and talk to Mohammed on religious freaks, or buy a book about islam, someone who doesn’t won’t spend the money on something like this and thus die ignorant of the “true” religion)
June 23rd, 2007 at 7:08 pm
To follow religion is to really believe in it, if somebody converts because of his spouse, that’s not believing, they called hypocracy.
That’s why Islam doesn’t enocurage oppression in religion, bcause we don’t hypocrate in our religion, being Muslim is devote your self to good, some people say we are Muslims, but only God know what they have inside( still free will).
June 23rd, 2007 at 5:18 pm
@Mohammed,
Yes indeed. That is an answer to my question, but I would like to ask another question:
Some people convert to a certain religion because of the person they marry. If marriage is already pre-decided, doesn’t that kind of affect his free will(his choice) ?
June 23rd, 2007 at 4:30 pm
Mohammed, you keep saying it’s “Our” fault that the palastinians and isrealites are killing themselves and eachother. Just out of curiosity, what do you want done about it?
Also, I second Andrew’s question about free choice, your view is self-contradictory.
June 23rd, 2007 at 1:38 pm
Let’s set a scene: In an outdoor cafe in London, a group of 20 men, women, and children are eating lunch. A radical Islamic suicide bomber drives a car into the middle of the cafe and detonates a vest bomb.
According to Mohamed, the time and place of these 21 people’s deaths is predetermined, yet they all had free will. If the bomber had not chosen to become a bomber (thus going against Mohamed’s idea of true Islam), he somehow would have still ended up at the cafe and all 21 people would have still died at the exact same moment.
Let’s go to a larger scale. Hiroshima. If no scientists in the world had chosen to study the atom, all of the residents of Hiroshima would still have died simultaneously. How could this be possible? Perhaps a great flood or earthquake? Not only that, but all of the scientists who had chosen different paths in life would have married the same people, and made the same amount of money, regardless of what choices they made.
Mohamed, I can’t accept a definition of free will that fixes your name, marriage, salary, and time of death. Those are 4 huge aspects of anyone’s life. Why bother going to work, or out to meet people, or maintaining your health, if nothing you do will change your predetermined salary or spouse or death?
Why bother manufacturing air bags, safety belts, fire extinguishers, hard hats, medicine, vaccinations, or any other “life saving” device when Allah has predetermined when you will die? No life saving device can stop it.
June 23rd, 2007 at 11:52 am
We believe in free will when it comes to choices, if you want to be Muslims or Christian or another, that’s your free will, we believe that if you are going to be a king or president, that’s written before you even born, the other thing that is written is when you are going to be born, and even your name is written and the money you will make, your marriage, and the time and the place you are going to die at, other than that every thing is choice, you want to go drink that’s your choice, you want to go gamble that’s your choice.
Our prophet told Muslims that at one point they are going to be weak and in state of ignorance like you say, so they aske him why, is it because we are going to be a few in the world, he said “no, there will be so many Muslims, but they are not heard, they are like foam on the water surface, if you blow this foam, it will go away”
I hope that answers your question.
June 23rd, 2007 at 5:07 am
Guess my question got lost again in all the talk here(weird how I always need to post a question 3+ times to get an answer out of Mohammed)
@Mohammed,
you said:
Muslims believe a God will, if Abu Baker and Omar and Ottman wan meant to be the first Caliphs, that wouldn’t happen with out God will and his destiny, nobody would chang that, and you should know better.
My question: I thought we have free will, and can make the right or wrong choice, so perhaps Abu-Baker, Omar and Otman were just some wrong choices made by HUMANS.
An additional question: Are you saying that bin-laden, terrorists, 9/11, israel’s war with lebanon, both world wars and the current state of ignorance in which all(or close enough) moslem countries live is also part of god’s supposed “destiny” for us?
@Muslim boy, could you give an answer to the above questions from your perspective? it’s way easier to get answers from you than from Mohammed. Thank you very much for your help so far I learned a lot.
June 22nd, 2007 at 6:23 pm
Are you ready for the answer, are you going to do what I tell you?
Are you going to listen to what I want you to get the answer.
Proof of truth, do you know that sometimes watch Fox news, furthermore I watch the stupid Bill orielly, and even sometimes I agree with some points of his( weried Huh), I could listen to what ever you can think of.
Even my wife is getting angry that I watch this people, and my answer always is that I like to see how people view and how they like to twist the truth.
We didn’t start murder any body, the plastenian getting murderd for 80 years now on the world watch, and what did you do about, you still crying about the hollacust and yet you don’t even bother about the Jews doing to Palestine.
Want to watch news, and I’m not going to tell you watch Eljazeera, I’m not going to let you go that far, just watch the BBC, and you will different kind of news, thing that you didn’t hear of.
When you say Muslis start to kill people, you stereo type the whole Muslims, I didn’t kill anybody and I have no intention to kill an animal even, there is big differnece what they Islam say and what the Muslims do.
June 22nd, 2007 at 5:07 pm
Alcari - Exactly. The pointless, self-congratulatory glass bead game being played on here by non-Muslims would be harmless if it were not that so many Muslims want to kill all the rest of us. You read about the recent PEW poll of Muslims in the US that revealed that over 100,000 young Muslims in the USA believe terrorist murder is acceptable. Think about it. 9/11 was carried out by 19 men.
And, yes, the Queen knighted Salman Rushdie and it is being construed as nothing more than a declaration of war on Islam. So thousands of people will riot all weekend, people who are mostly illiterate even in their native languages and thus have never even read the book! But be assured people must (in their opinion) and will die because Islam has been insulted.
Don’t Muslims understand none of us ever cared enough about Islam to bother with it until they started murdering everyone in sight.
I just can’t leave all the words to them and the moral equivalency crowd which is so well represented on this board. You know, those people who seem to actually believe that Christianity and Islam are equally bad. I am not a Christian, by the way, or a Jew or a follower of any religion.
For the record, I am a 60 year old life-long Democrat who does watch Fox News (the Sunday news panel show)and other conservative news shows as well as ABC News (liberal), The News Hour with Jim Lehrer, Washington Week with Gwen Ifill, and Now - all on PBS, considered the most liberal media outlet in the nation. I also read a wide range of political publications from far right to far left with many stops in between. I read jihadwatch.com and CAIR.com as well as other pro-Islamic sites and anti-Islamic sites. Can Mo say the same? And I opposed the invastion of Iraq as illegal and unnecessary.
June 22nd, 2007 at 2:12 pm
Salman rushdie was knighted? Allright!
Proof, That’s exactly how I feel about it, I would have written the same, but i’ve given up on mohamed and this whole pointless discussion here.
June 22nd, 2007 at 1:54 pm
Agony wrote:
And I still wonder if mohammed will ever answer me…
No, of course not. Not if you asked anything of substance that was based on a fact that contradicted the idea that Islam is the most enlightened view of life there is.
And notice how predictable he (Mohammed) once again reveals himself to be. It’s the USA and the Jews that are causing the Muslims to pull the trigger. It’s the Jews and the USA who are making adults who will never risk their lives (bin Laden for example and his lieutenants)convince children (babies even) that their highest destiny is to commit suicide in the course of murdering as many people as possible. And instead of addressing the very real problems that Islam causes for everyone, its adherents as well as it victims, he is fighting a 1400 year old battle with Muslim Boy - who by the way also sidestepped the issue of the anti-Jewish racism built into Islam and the blaming of Muslim crimes on anybody but Muslims.
This is a person who has revealed that he believes semen comes from the backbone, that Islam did not spread by the sword and ended “slavery” wherever it went(news to all the people they killed and enslaved as they conquered North Africa and Southern Spain and tried repeatedly to invade the rest of Europe - all hundreds of years before the first crusade by the way), who believes that any one who points out what Muslimns are verifiably doing all over the world is a merely a racist who watches too much Fox News because it shouldn’t be the brutal murders committed by Muslims that has non-Muslims worried - after all if the Jews and the USA would just stop making Muslims murder people everything would be OK. You know all those Jews in Thailand who are making Muslims murder Buddhists, for example. Or all those Phillipino Jews who are making Muslims murder non-Muslims in the Phillipines. Or all those Jews and other Americans who are making Muslims murder Jews and other Americans. Is it that Muslims are so feeble and brain-dead that they can be worked like puppets by apes and pigs?
Anyone want to place bets on how many people will be dead on Monday morning because Salman Rushdie was knighted? I’m certain we’ll see a higher than usual death toll from Muslim hurt feelings over the weekend. And why shouldn’t people die? After all, Islam was insulted - by Jews (aka in the Koran “pigs and apes”) and Americans and the British.
Go to CAIR.com and see what they think is important: The savage oppression and discrimination that American Muslims suffer: spraypaint! words! Ham sandwiches! O, the horror.
Though there are probably Muslims who have found a way through the minefield of their religion to emerge as decent people (maybe even thousands of them), the fact remains that unreformed Islam is odious in concept and most of its expression.
June 22nd, 2007 at 1:54 pm
“IN THE NAME OF ALLAH THE MERCIFUL THE COMPASIONATE”
Salam alaykom dear brothers and sisters,
first of all, we had no other choice, live under saddam’s rule and get tortured for being shias, or let the americans get rid of him. as a result now terrorists are using it as an opurtunity to terrorize the country, butcher innocent women, children and men in an attempt to trigger civil war between the shias and sunnis.
i have nothing against the sunna, how do i know theya re not better muslims than my self? but religion is only the outer case, i hate to admit it but there are even athiests who have better akhlaq and have better respect than us muslims do for each other.
and you obviously don’t know the real story behind the tragedy of karbala, i know that the jews suffered and it was wrong what happened to them is different in comparison to what happened to hussain. they didn’t have the choice of living. that is what happened with the will of allah, another example of allah doing something not beniting them but is still mercy, because it could have been worse. if there was no pain or suffereing then we would already be in heaven, there would be no need for an afterlife.
any way, hussyn, had the choice of doing wrong and giving alliance to yazid and living, but instead he defended the word of muhammed (saw), preserving the true islam, hussayn gave his soul and his head (just to remind you that yazid had the heads of the shuhada (martyrs), on spears) rather than give in to an unjust man.
you ask why we mourn over our beloved hussayn, hussayns aim was to show us the true islam, his aim was not for us to bleed like the above images, that is people doing what they want not representing all the shias.
if we do not remember what happened to hussayn, then the tragedy will be forgotten. if my ancestors had not remembered, then i may have not found out the true story or mabye not know hussayn was at all. how do you expect to understand hussayn’s sacrifice, if you do not even know who yazid was. if it wasn’t for uthman, than yazid would not be in power, going back to the point were ali (as) should have had the calipha, how do u think i must feel when i hear a lady say that hussayn was fighting for the calipha!!!!!
don’t you think its my duty to spread the truth of what happened at karbala, you do not know how opressed hussayn and his followers were, even after hussayns death, the captives were dragged to damascuc in front of yazid (may allah’s cursings be upon him), when yazid saw the head of hussayn, a noble and honarable man who was spreading the truth, he accpted it as revenge aginst the holy prophet (saw) for killing his foprefathers.
if hussayn’s tragedy is not remembered then what would be the point of it happening, why didn’t hussayn just give in and let us turn corrupt? i want our future generation to know what i know. not treat it as a history lesson, this person the grandson of our blessed prophet (saww), slaughtered and crushed? people have converted to islam after understanding this story, even non-muslims have cried over this opressed figure, islam is not just pray and fast, its to prohibit bad and encourage good.
“it would hurt Islam and he tries to promote to it, and I think you about to join him soon.”
who are you to say that, all i am saying is the calipha was stolen, an