I read this tiny article yesterday and it got me thinking about the religious roots in the US. For those too lazy to read the article, it is very short and sweet. The author claims that the US is not a Christian nation, but a nation where many Christians reside. Furthermore, our forefathers did not think too highly of Christianity or any other specific religion for that matter.
I’d imagine, some Christian readers would beg to differ, but the Constitution speaks for itself. There is no mention of Jesus or Christianity in it for good reason. The founders of the US possesed far more wisdom than the leaders of today. They designed the Constitution to be wholly secular because they knew of the difficulties with religion and faith.
I’m not a huge fan of throwing down quotes, but there are a few from the likes of Thomas Jefferson and John Adams that I found interesting…
"Is uniformity attainable? Millions of innocent men, women, and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined, imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity. What has been the effects of coercion? To make one half the world fools, and the other half hypocrites." –Thomas Jefferson
"I am for freedom of religion, & against all maneuvres to bring about a legal ascendancy of one sect over another." –Thomas Jefferson
"The divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity. Nowhere in the Gospels do we find a precept for Creeds, Confessions, Oaths, Doctrines, and whole carloads of other foolish trumpery that we find in Christianity." –John Adams
"This nation of ours was not founded on Christian principles." –John Adams
There’s plenty more to read online, but the point I’m making is that the brilliant fathers of this nation were religious. However, they were not Christian, nor did they believe in mandating one specific religion, especially Christianity. Also, from reading more about them, it appears that they saw religion as a very personal and private affair.
I look at this country now, and I wonder where those beliefs and principles went. Would our forefathers approve of the 10 Commandments being on display in federal buildings? How would they feel about teaching the Christian version of creation in public schools?
I want everyone, especially Christians, to chime in on this one.
Related posts:
- Christian Hypocrites Declare War On Common Sense
- Christian Hypocrites Attack Ford
- Atheists Are America’s Most Distrusted Minority
- Devout Christian Starves Herself To Death For Jesus
I don’t live in the US and have only visited the traditionally less religious parts (Boston; Seattle) for a few weeks. I find it very hard to judge — there are the obvious scare stories about Christian colleges, Kent Hovind and his dinosaur fantasy land but I don’t know how representative that is of the population.
I know we in the UK have our share of nutters too. Very recently there has been a huge upset because isolated island communities in the north of Scotland were getting Sunday ferry services. The mainlanders couldn’t care one way or the other, but an awful lot of the islanders themselves want to “keep the Sabbath sacred”. So I’m well aware that tiny groups of people can make the views of everyone else seem very extreme by association.
The biggest thing I have noticed is the relevance of religion in politics in the US. Until very recently (ie, the Blair government) our government ministers would view religion as a “very personal and private affair”, in stark contrast to all political sides in the US.
Bear in mind that everything I say here is from someone viewing a particular subset of what goes on. We don’t get to see coverage of political campaigning outside of the main two parties, so it may be different. Maybe some US residents would like to chime in now! :-)
Religion and religious sentiment have waxed and waned at various times in US and colonial history.
“O sinner! Consider the fearful danger you are in: it is a great furnace of wrath, a wide and bottomless pit, full of the fire of wrath, that you are held over in the hand of that God, whose wrath is provoked and incensed as much against you, as against many of the damned in hell. You hang by a slender thread, with the flames of divine wrath flashing about it, and ready every moment to singe it, and burn it asunder; and you have no interest in any Mediator, and nothing to lay hold of to save yourself, nothing to keep off the flames of wrath, nothing of your own, nothing that you ever have done, nothing that you can do, to induce God to spare you one moment.” — John Edwards, 1741
That was a very short and insightful editorial that I agree with whole-heartedly. I do want to make one fine point though. The piece was an editorial, not an article. While most people might not care about the difference, it is worth noting that an article is supposed to be carefully researched, unbiased, and written by a professional journalist. Representing an editorial, which needs not be any of those things, as an article lends it credentials it doesn’t deserve.
To contribute to what the writer wrote, many people think that America was founded on Christianity based on the founders’ belief in God and the many references to God in their writings. When in fact, as the writer points out, the founders were not Christian but Deists (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deism). Meaning that their belief in God was based on reason and nature as opposed to revelation or authority. The most prolific supporter of the Deist philosophy was none other than Thomas Paine, writer of “Common Sense†and “The Age of Reasonâ€. Read his comparison of Deism to Christianity here: http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/mod/paine-deism.html and see which view corresponds better with the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution.
Other prominent Deists include Thomas Jefferson, John Locke, and Benjamin Franklin.
> Also, from reading more about them, it appears that they saw religion as a very personal and private affair.
New Age, yeah!
One of our country’s greatest strengths is that we are not a theocracy and our founding father’s never meant it to be. Christians have wielded plenty of power and influence in this country in over 200 years. When they wine and complain about how “godless” America has become, it just means they want to run the show again and seek benefits for themselves and themselves only.
As President, Thomas Jefferson negotiated treaties with the Indians in which he included direct federal funding to pay for Christian missionaries to evangelize the Indians. These treaties were ratified by the US senate. Check it out for yourself.
By the time I stumbled across this editorial, the article cited at the start was no longer available at that link; perhaps it can be recovered and added here on its own page.
Briefly, the clash over religion (specifically Christianity) in the U.S. has a lot of voices arguing right past one another; it’s true that America was not founded as a Christian nation, but at the same time, ideals derived from Christian teaching have long pervaded its cultures and philosophies. (Incidentally, I have been a Christian believer most of my life, over 45 years now.)
All that argument seems to miss a key point, though: early Christianity (that is, before Constantine’s 4th-century edict officially recognizing that faith) obviously didn’t need any official recognition in order to profoundly influence the cultures and societies it first spread in — so it would seem that any argument by Christians to promote a “Christian” nation is really an admission that Christians’ own lives aren’t having anything like the impact on society that early Christianity — as a minority faith, officially unrecognized, frequently persecuted — had on its “pagan” society.
And this, here in a country pervaded by Christian teaching and values from its start, with religious freedoms unheard-of, even unimaginable, to almost anyone before 1776! With Bible bookstores now available in every city (not to mention online), and Christian teachings flooding radio, TV, and music media all over the place. None of which could even have been dreamt of by early Christians!
How very sad that Christ seems to be talked about, but not lived very much — and we Christians seem to blame everyone but ourselves, if we think “the country is turning away from God”?
If believers in Christ would genuinely and sincerely do what Jesus taught — authentically live by his example, authentically love our neighbors and even our enemies, as he specifically commanded (you sure don’t hear those Scriptures getting a lot of air time in most pulpits these days) — there would be a lot more profound, positive transformation of society in the only way that can ever happen: in individual hearts, one by one.
Oh by the way, here is a pointed and relevant quote from Gandhi: “I like your Christ. I do not like your Christians; your Christians are so unlike your Christ.”
We Christians seem to want to fix everyone else but ourselves, but we ourselves are the biggest problem. Oh yeah, Jesus himself had a pointed and relevant quote on that, directed at his own followers: “You hypocrite! First take the plank out of your own eye; then you can see clearly to remove the speck from someone else’s.”
When Christians get accused mostly of being too loving, too compassionate, too merciful, too willing to be servants to others, then that will be a good accusation that I would be glad to be guilty of.
I totally agree with you there, even though I wonder why you need Christ to care for other people and be a kind person.
It is, as is so often the case humanity, a matter of following the letter of what is written, and not the spirit in which is was intended.
Of course, it would generally be consideren a good thing that people don’t live according the spirit of the Old testament, as it would probably turn into a Mad Max-type world.
Mr Roger…Oh by the way, here is a pointed and relevant quote from Gandhi: “I like your Christ. I do not like your Christians; your Christians are so unlike your Christ.â€
I always hear this famous quote by Gandhi and i have heard this by people here. they have said this about my Jesus and i have to point out that, like Gandhi, Irish here and you Mr Rogers. One, you are on the wrong side of the river and second, make a continuous mistake on not really understanding what that statement is about.
If Gandhi looked at Jesus Christ(noticed he said Christ, and he did not make a mistake there, which like him and Irish know this fact) that they should not look to man. Why? because we are sinners and if Gandhi looked at Christ alone, he could have known the true and living God and shared our mistakes in a brotherly love as my brother, Mr Rogers has written.
James 1:1-2
Count it all joy, my brothers, when you meet trials of various kinds, for you know that the testing of your faith produces steadfastness
thanks for sharing Mr Rogers, please let us learn from you. continue to teach us all with the bean that is in our eyes brother, so we can help remove the bean that is your eye.
“When Christians get accused mostly of being too loving, too compassionate, too merciful, too willing to be servants to others, then that will be a good accusation that I would be glad to be guilty of.”
You will never have to worry about that problem, ever.
Howdy all,
“get accused mostly of being too loving, too compassionate, too merciful, too willing to be servants to others, then that will be a good accusation that I would be glad to be guilty of.â€
I would like that to be something that everbody (not just Christians) would strive to be accused of. Within reason of course.
Cheers
Simon Bond
Of course it would be wonderful if everyone on Earth could be accused of being too loving!
I’m not sure I understand why Alcari thought I may have implied that Christ was “needed” in order to love; the point is rather that, if anyone is genuinely following him and what he said, “walking the talk” you know, that ought to be the kind of person one will keep turning out to be. There are ethical teachings in other belief systems that do indeed produce some wonderfully kind and loving people, who in fact put many Christians to shame on that count; I wasn’t commenting pro or con on any other belief systems.
And on hyrocket’s (rather snide-sounding) suggestion about removing beams (planks) from each other’s eyes, well, of course my entire point in identifying myself as a Christian includes me in the plank-in-the-eye crowd too; except that I don’t want to make the great mistake (like hyrocket seems to do) of getting self-defensive about Christians. What was that for?
Integrity is measured by how self-critical we are, not by trying to defend ourselves (that actually is a textbook case of self-righteousness); so yes, hyrocket, the plank keeps needing to be taken from your eye and from mine, and from all Christians’ eyes. I like to polish up my planks and recycle them for repairs around the home; I’ve been able to make several entire room additions that way.
“If we judged ourselves, we would not be judged” (1 Cor 11.31) is another verse that doesn’t get a lot of air time in most churches! If we Christians really do think it is about Jesus, then we of all people should be the most willing to get out of the way, not get defensive when we think anyone is criticizing us. Anyway, anyone who objects to Christians being criticized clearly hasn’t read much of the New Testament, because in there, plenty of churches get read the riot act on any number of idiocies they were engaged in.
But meanwhile, back to the original point of this thread, which had to do with religion in US politics and so on … my only real point was that we Christians would do a lot better, both for society and for credibility of the faith we talk about, if we genuinely walked our talk rather than squawk about what part it ought to play in politics. “Do not merely listen to the word, and so deceive yourselves; do what it says” (Jas 1.22 … yet another verse getting stale on the shelf).
I at least want to be one Christian who speaks up against “religious freaks,” hypocrisy, and the like; that’s also one of the best ways to keep myself from not becoming like that, either. There are at least a few of us who don’t carp about “keeping the Sabbath sacred,” who recognize that evolution is a fact (and contradicts only some simplistic readings of the Bible, not the book itself), and who realize that this nation was founded to be a free country, not a Christian one.
“” I’m not sure I understand why Alcari thought I may have implied that Christ was “needed†in order to love; the point is rather that, if anyone is genuinely following him and what he said, “walking the talk†you know, that ought to be the kind of person one will keep turning out to be. “”
I’m sorry, the general tone of your article suggested to me that you thought, it is only possible to be a good person if one believes in Christ.
I did not mean any insult, and it is infact rather refreshing to see that there are sane Christians out there. On this site it seems that most religious people are like Hyrocket up there (if you need a better example, look at the old Ashura thread…)
I applaud your common sense, in a world where there seems to be an increasing number of people of the “burn-the-heretic” branch of religion.
Something is wrong here. Where is the real Alcari?
“I did not mean any insult, and it is in fact rather refreshing to see that there are sane Christians out there”.
Mr. Rogers looks like that beam is not in your eye and your house must really be looking nice. Please help us and teach us more wisdom.
I praise Jesus Christ for the understanding you have.
Mr. Rogers I am curious about this verse you mention,
“If we judged ourselves, we would not be judged†(1 Cor 11.31) is another verse that doesn’t get a lot of air time in most churches!
really, how do you know this?
This verse you used is from the Lords supper,
Let a person examine himself, then, and so eat of the bread and drink of the cup. 1Cor21:28
We must examine ourselves and i see why Alcari agrees with you to a point. When we take the Lords supper we must confess our sins first.
Mr. Rogers if we must examine ourselves are we not suppose to share our faults and point out that we are all sinners with others and than give the only answer which is in Christ Jesus alone.
hyrocket, I seem to remember you saying something along the lines of “I’m not going to preach”.
Irish, can you tell me where you got that quote? there is a reason why you keep asking me and it’s deeper than you think.
“I am not here to convert anyone for the power to change a life is not in me.â€
Rep Douglas Bruce “Lee†Kick Starts His Term
comment 5
January 16th, 2008 at 6:17 pm
I’m sorry, totally different from converting, i guess you can preach just to be an annoying prick.
Irish, i apologize that i did not finish that sentence..
“I am not here to convert anyone for the power to change a life is not in me.â€
But the power to change a life is in the one who sent me, Jesus Christ and that is in Him alone.
i am sorry for being an annoying prick, guys.
Thats awesome, you can go back in time and change what you said. Or could it be you said something and you wanna back-pedal. Whatever it is, the only way to show you’re sorry for being annoying prick is to stop being one.
I enjoyed reading the posts. I am a Christian and agree that the church as a whole does not understand what true Christianity is. America was founded on rebellion against the King of England. This is not something that true Christians would do. A true Christian would love his (her) enemies (not kill them)because they would have the love of Jesus in them. This is being led by the Holy Spirit of God. God loved us when we were his enemy. If we don’t forgive others, God will not forgive us.
Ron,
Re “This is not something that true Christians would do.”, that’s such a classic commit of a common fallacy that it’s funny. You need to google “No True Scotsman Fallacy”. OK, I’ll help you. Look here.
Regarding another aspect of your post, Christianity is in fact very well understood, and if anything, over-studied. The problem is that much of what Christianity is (and Christian doctrine says) is obviously wrong. For example, the earth is not merely several thousand years old, it isn’t flat, and the earth wasn’t populated in the manner, sequence, and geography that the bible says it was.
Christianity is a farce, and it is long past time for humanity to move past it.
Religion is ridiculous.
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Karl Jobst…
America Not A Christian Nation » Religious Freaks…