I haven’t heard anything this emotionally disturbing in a long time. There is simply no way a child could possibly understand what they’re talking about on a subject so intricate and difficult as religion. This reminds me of those interviews with Muslim children you see on the news when they talk about how great Allah is, yet they don’t have a clue as to what they’re talking about. This is some whack stuff in my opinion which is why I share it with you guys :)
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June 4th, 2006 at 11:33 pm
That is pretty beat-up. The sad thing is, I know probably know the 17-year-old versions of those kids. They’re my friends and all, but I can’t help feeling alienated as a Jew among cross-carrying members of the God Squad.
June 5th, 2006 at 8:52 am
“We can be 8, 9, 10 years old, brain-washed, and creepy, Lord!”
June 5th, 2006 at 9:34 am
Please avoid using flash 8, there is no player for linux or mac…
June 5th, 2006 at 9:35 am
Yeah that’s not creepy at all. Yikes.
June 5th, 2006 at 9:51 am
Sorry Muzzle, but the source was in Flash 8 and I don’t have an adequate way of converting it to something else. If anyone has a suggestion, please contact me through the contact page.
gasmonso
June 5th, 2006 at 4:17 pm
Stunning, this appeals directly to the intellect of the veiwer. Thats it, i`m converting !
Kind of reminisent of http://www.isratv.com/video/filmpmwadsl.asx
June 5th, 2006 at 7:35 pm
WOW…I feel gross now. those poor kids.
June 6th, 2006 at 7:55 am
First, let’s all agree that yes, this is weird. The whole idea of recording children praying like this and then playing it back feels like some sort of religious child porn more than a devotional exercise. I’m not saying this is sexual, but that it’s posing children into specific shapes and sound-bytes for the pleasure/fantasy of imagining that if you do the right thing, all children–your children–can pray like this.
Second, children imitate those around them. Laughing at these kids is as much fun as laughing at a kid trying to ride a bike too big or trying to use training wheels. These kids are, in simple, imitative ways, grasping at mystery. As children, it would not surprise me one bit that they come closer than the adults they are mimicking to discovering God.
And of course, there’s the possibility that this is all a game to these kids and they know if they’ll pray loud and fast and like Sister Slappy, they’ll get an extra hot dog.
Sometimes, you just never know.
June 6th, 2006 at 3:16 pm
OK, that is it. I’m almost tempted to go back to school so I can become an abortion doctor.
June 10th, 2006 at 9:01 pm
dont youjust want to yell shut the fuck up and beat all those little kids with a bat? i really, really do.
June 11th, 2006 at 4:20 pm
You should try listening to this stuff while listening to Venetian snares….creepy
June 12th, 2006 at 4:50 pm
lolz…. little crazy twat brainwashed kids.
i wonder how does thyr parents look like :S
June 14th, 2006 at 12:22 pm
Child abuse.
June 14th, 2006 at 1:42 pm
ugh. Thats the creepiest shit I’ve seen/heard in a while.
I think I need a shower.
June 14th, 2006 at 9:03 pm
How terrible…how sad.
Where are these kids from?
Their parents need to be locked up…this is a result of abuse.
June 15th, 2006 at 6:10 pm
Little kid,
If there was a God such as the one you believe you are beseeching, he would have already dropped right down in front of you and told you to knock it off already.
Your parents should be ashamed.
June 16th, 2006 at 10:36 pm
Boy, that is some real scary shit. I thinks its almost child abuse to get children to think that way, deffenatly brain washing.
June 17th, 2006 at 9:58 am
Brainwashing comes in all flavors. For example, many have been brainwashed to think that multiculturalism and multiracialism are good things. One of the funniest and most foolish brainwashing slogans is “Diversity is our Greatest Strength”!
June 17th, 2006 at 3:01 pm
Yah, I’m with you John! One culture, one race. White Power!
June 17th, 2006 at 3:15 pm
John, are you inbred?
June 17th, 2006 at 3:40 pm
He’s just trying to start a flame war. Ignore his ignorance.
June 17th, 2006 at 6:27 pm
I had this playing and my husband just said, “shut that thing off. It makes me want to go get a gun”. Yikes.
June 17th, 2006 at 6:36 pm
LOL, it has a seriously high annoying factor that’s for sure. I would love to know who that girl is and who her parents are.
Honestly, I was impressed at how well she spoke… albeit insane. But impressive nonetheless :)
gasmonso
June 17th, 2006 at 6:45 pm
no wonder this world is a mess
June 22nd, 2006 at 2:58 pm
It’s too bad that those guys bombing churches missed this one. This place is dangerous and disgusting.
Lord,please protect me from the Christians, amen
June 22nd, 2006 at 8:40 pm
eeeeeeeeewwwwwwwwwwww!
June 24th, 2006 at 3:32 pm
dont blame jesus for peoples mistakes
June 30th, 2006 at 7:47 pm
The Hitler youth..no thought, no compassion, just whats programmed.
I’m sorry.
July 2nd, 2006 at 5:16 am
Jesus said “suffer the little children to come to Me”, not “let the little children suffer to come to Me.” That kind of raw, strong emotion is suffering. Children should not be brought up like that.
July 3rd, 2006 at 1:15 am
This is sick. The parents of these children should be in prison for child abuse. It is obsene! The sort of people who think this is good are the same people who would condemn other religions for brainwashing children!
July 4th, 2006 at 12:20 am
I am a person of faith and find the video of these kids praying in that manner at that age chilling. Is this the next generation of the religious right? If so, I am leaving North America and heading towards Australia, far away from this fanaticism. American Christianity is paying a high price from its proud and arrogant declaration from their so-called “freedom” from intellectualism.
July 5th, 2006 at 8:23 am
Sad, very sad. Parents teahcing their children to be fanatics. If it’s not the liberals, conservatives, or Islamic fanatics, it’s the so-cslled “Christians” ruining a generation of humanity.
“The mind is a terrible thing to waste.”
July 5th, 2006 at 11:18 pm
I say we all pitch in an get a commercial spot on the next Superbowl to play this video :)
gasmonso
July 18th, 2006 at 5:53 pm
how do i download the video i really want it to show to my church
July 18th, 2006 at 10:18 pm
I dont know who make the link to download it, but thanks!!!!!! GOD BLESS YOU
July 18th, 2006 at 10:52 pm
I have answered your prayers joel, now pleaase put a little something in the offering plate ;) Enjoy this crazy ass video my freaky friend :)
gasmonso
August 11th, 2006 at 5:02 am
Joel Vargas, please do not say ‘God Bless You’ on a webpage that is obviously frequented by atheists, it is rude.
August 11th, 2006 at 9:35 am
Hello godisamyth,
I’ve always been curious about the point you bring up. Why do atheists take offense to ‘God Bless You’? I’m neither an atheist nor a Christian, and when I hear it, I am slightly offended, but I cannot put my finger on why. On the face of it, taking offense to it seems as ridiculous as taking offense to ‘Happy Holidays’.
August 11th, 2006 at 11:04 am
Wow, I missed this video when it was posted. I just watched it. I am not sure if I should thank godisamyth for “bumping” it into visibility or not!
Putting aside all the brainwashing implications and the possibility that these kids don’t really know what they are saying…. Doesn’t it sounds like they are suffering? Desparate? Or even in terror? That is not love that I hear. Listen to their tone of voice. That is the sound of kids who has been locked in a closet begging to be be let out (not that I’ve ever done it, but I can imagine)… pleading with his or her parents… promising to be good… saying how great the parents are and how “nothing matters” but them. Child abuse does come to mind. Creepy, indeed.
August 11th, 2006 at 2:44 pm
As well spoken as this child is, her thought process shows definante immaturity. She starts out with a cry to bring the nation back to God. Most likely that’s how a lot of the prayers in her church and home start, so she echos that. But eventually she gets to her point, which seems to be something about not caring what you look like in front of the church. The whole prayer centers around physical appearance. And as much as she throughs in rhetoric about loving God, blessing nations, and preaching, the root of the message really is that we shouldn’t care about our fingernail polish.
Here’s the structure:
1. The nation has fallen. We can bring them back. We can be missionaries. Our message is:
2. You are greater than me. I don’t care about my hair.
3. Thanks for dying. We don’t need toys — just you.
4. Nothing matters when we are converted. Not fingernail polish, nor hair, nor candy.
5. Deliver people who care about thier looks from Satan.
6. Let us die so we won’t care about our looks.
It’s like some prettier girl at church was making fun of her.
It reminds me of a guy I used to know who would pray “Thank you for showing me humility, so that I know I don’t have to buy a new car.” The guy made 6 figures, but his family lived in poverity and he donated 90% of the money to the church. (Not really. The bishop told him he wouldn’t except that much from him and that he should feed and clothe his kids instead. So he found other charities to donate to.) Then he’d pray about how humble he was and how buying new cars was evil. Pissed off the people at church who worked hard to buy thier new cars.
August 12th, 2006 at 7:21 pm
sidfaiwu Hi
To me someone saying “god bless you” is rude because it is particially preaching. It is inflicting the idea of god where it is not wanted, and preaching to those who don’t want to be preached to is rape of the mind, and there is no excuse for it. It’s like me saying to a religious person, ‘god is dead’. Yes i think that but I would not say it after everytime a religious person did a good dead for me. A religious person would find this rude.
To sum it up, if i said to a religous person “my god the bottle of ketchup blesses u” I would think there are very few who wouldnt find it offensive. Yes there is good intention, but religion is the biggest conversation the world has ever had, and I also find it very disturbing.
August 12th, 2006 at 7:25 pm
And a point about the video. I have found out lately about American HELL HOUSES that show plays of what will happen to you if you don’t follow god rules etc. This is the brainwashing that people often talk about. i.e. these children are shown projcted images of humans in hell, and some of these images im told would struggle to even be shown in the cinema
August 13th, 2006 at 9:30 am
i really beleive this is something more than a word that aint just spoken out in blah but its something that comes only out through intimate relationship wid God,overwhelmed by his love which is expereinced only when we go to him because now i have come in to an understandin of who god is and wha it really matters and is a revelation of God to men who jesus real by his spirit and not by the mind of mindz
god blesss ya guz and jesus loves ya
August 13th, 2006 at 12:49 pm
“i really beleive this is something more than a word that aint just spoken out in blah but its something that comes only out through intimate relationship wid God,overwhelmed by his love which is expereinced only when we go to him because now i have come in to an understandin of who god is and wha it really matters and is a revelation of God to men who jesus real by his spirit and not by the mind of mindz
god blesss ya guz and jesus loves ya”
So what if when I say “god is dead” (or more accurately “god doesnt exist”) to a religious person, I really feel the lack of god in my heart, and am overwhelmed by the lack of his love. What if I also really understand that he cannot exist and just gotta share this.
The words and meaning don’t change. It’s still offensive.
God doesn’t exist. Jesus is dead and incapable of love. peace!!!
August 13th, 2006 at 1:23 pm
Someone after my own heart. The idea of god is a concept as firm a pixie dust. And thats all it is, a concept.
August 21st, 2006 at 3:43 pm
Think about it people…Consider that children are full of passion for things they love. If you have taught your kids to love candy or Chuck E. Cheese, or ice cream, they will with the same passion that you heard in that video, “pray” for it, until you give it to them…I’ve seen some of your children in the mall, grocery stores, etc. having a screaming fit, praying that you “buy me some candy!!!!”
So if a parent has shown their child who God is, and taught them to love him with that same conviction that your kid has learned to love “Barney,” and scream bloody murder if you don’t get them the new craze of the month, I would suggest that you should call it training of the mind rather than brainwashing. If you really want to call it brainwahing, then look at the kids around you, and see what it is that they snot, and scream, and cry and have tantrums about…When you put it in perspective, at least what these children are pleading about is not selfish, and it is a worthy cause…They are pleading for you, and me, and the world we live in.
I bet if bombs started dropping in your neighborhood right as you are reading this, then you’d probably be sounding like that little girl that very instant…So have some compassion for someone, other than yourself, because there are people, and yes little children, for whom that is a daily reality. The reason a bomb or plane or fire or lightning hasn’t hit your house, or you haven’t been caught in the cross-fire of a drive-by, could very well be because someone, like this little girl was interceding on the behalf of ignorant, selfish people.
August 21st, 2006 at 4:18 pm
Wow, Think about it…, you sure do make a bunch of assumptions about people not like yourself and a lot of assumptions about the universe in general.
First off, it seems as though you are trying to draw a false dichotomy between Christian kids and the kids that you see at malls, grocery stores, etc. I bet that 3/4ths of those kids at the mall ARE Christians. And I also bet that a sizable proportion of the well behaved kids have no religion at all.
Secondly, what malls, grocery stores, etc. do you go to?!? The screaming kids in the malls, grocery stores, etc. I’ve been to sound nothing like the kids in this video. Those in the video sound frightened and desperate. Those who don’t get what they want sound angry and impatient.
Thirdly, if bombs started dropping in my neighborhood I’d sound nothing like the little girl from the video. I’d be busy trying to get myself and as many other people to safety quickly. I know this because I’ve been in a few life-threatening situations.
Fourthly, we do have compassion for these children. That is precisely why we are so appalled by the video. It sounds like these kids are in pain. It’s clear that their religion is giving them no comfort!
Fifthly, your metaphysical assumptions are astounding:
a) God exists
b) God hears people’s prayers
c) God is willing to do something about it
d) God is able to do something about it
These assumptions are especially astounding when there is clear evidence that God does not answer all prayers.
Lastly, you call us ignorant and selfish. If someone is ignorant than why not enlighten them instead of insulting them? What truths do these ‘ignorant’ people lack? Are you sure that your ‘truths’ aren’t just opinions? I also fail to see how any of the posts indicate selfishness on anyone’s part. Where is your evidence?
In short, it seems that you disagree with the opinions expressed by many on this topic. But instead of offering your own opinion and letting it stand on its own merits, you resort to hyperbolic assumptions about those of us with a different opinion and insult us as well. Such behavior is shameful, especially from someone who trying to claim the moral high ground.
August 21st, 2006 at 4:57 pm
lol…sounds like you made more assumtions than you think I actually made…I never said God existed. I never assumed what belief kids are in the malls. and Lastly, I never called any of you ingnorant and selfish. I stated that she was probably interceding on the behalf of ignorant, and selfish people (I did not include the word “you” which means that you put yourself in that category…not me…lol)
Many are making the assumption that a deep plee or cry for something means that the child is being abused or something. They could just be very passionate about their desire and lack the maturity ask in a somewhat rational way, or have the mature patience to wait on a result, hence my examples about candy and stuff.
If you were offended by the things that I said, I apologize to you. I am not a religious person at all. I believe that there is a big distinction in what I believe, and a religious system, which is a man-made system of how they interpret what is actual Truth.
I’m not attacking anyone. I just don’t like to see a bunch of people bond together and agree on something for reasons that don’t match up with their own beliefs, and have not considered the similarities in their own world of existence.
August 21st, 2006 at 5:01 pm
REVISION———-
lol…sounds like you made more assumptions than you think I actually made…I never said God existed. I never even said that I believe in God. I never assumed what belief kids are in the malls. and Lastly, I never called any of you ingnorant and selfish. I stated that she was probably interceding on the behalf of ignorant, and selfish people (I did not include the word “you†which means that you put yourself in that category…not me…lol)
Many are making the assumption that a deep plee or cry for something means that the child is being abused or something. They could just be very passionate about their desire, and lack the maturity to ask in a somewhat rational way, or have the mature patience to wait on a result, hence my examples about candy and stuff.
If you were offended by the things that I said, I apologize to you. I am not a religious person at all. I believe that there is a big distinction in what I believe, and a religious system, which is a man-made system of how they interpret what is actual Truth.
I’m not attacking anyone. I just don’t like to see a bunch of people bond together and agree on something for reasons that don’t match up with their own beliefs, and they have not stopped to consider the reality of the similarities in their own world of existence.
August 22nd, 2006 at 10:02 am
On further review, I did definitely make one assumption. There may be one or two more assumption I made, but I defend the reasoning behind them below. So, allow me to revisit:
I did make an assumption about your belief about the screaming kids in malls. For that, I apologize.
I still assert that these kids don’t sound anything like angry mall kids.
You still assumed how I/we would react in a moment of crisis.
Here is my logic concerning your belief in God:
“The reason a bomb or plane or fire or lightning hasn’t hit your house, or you haven’t been caught in the cross-fire of a drive-by, could very well be because someone, like this little girl was interceding on the behalf of ignorant, selfish people.”
You claim that bad things don’t happen to us/me because of the girl’s intervention (via prayer to God), which implies that God exists, hears prayers, cares about prayers, and can do something about it.
From the same quote from your post, the insults can be seen. I’ll add emphasis to make this clearer:
“The reason a bomb or plane or fire or lightning hasn’t hit your house, or you haven’t been caught in the cross-fire of a drive-by, could very well be because someone, like this little girl was interceding on the behalf of ignorant, selfish people.”
So are you saying that the “ignorant, selfish people” you refer to is not the same “you” used earlier in the sentence? If not, on who’s behalf is the girl praying for to save my house from lightening?
August 22nd, 2006 at 11:00 am
and who says christianity isn’t a cult?
August 22nd, 2006 at 12:07 pm
Religion: A large, popular cult.
Cult: A small, unpopular religion.
September 5th, 2006 at 12:40 pm
“The reason a bomb or plane or fire or lightning hasn’t hit your house, or you haven’t been caught in the cross-fire of a drive-by, could very well be because someone, like this little girl was interceding on the behalf of ignorant, selfish people.”
Or it could be because of my location
September 5th, 2006 at 5:29 pm
Sure, she may be saying all of this in a voice that sounds as if she’s being tortured, but the message itself really isn’t very disturbing at all if you listen to what she’s actually saying. It’s strange, though I wouldn’t call it emotionally disturbing.
September 5th, 2006 at 6:00 pm
I would say its disturbing for several reasons. She’s obvously not old enough to look at the concept of religion objectively. She’s just been fed some lines about Jesus and believes them without giving it proper thought and criticism, and will no doubt continue to do so for the rest of her life. She’s going to go on to spread ignorance for ignorance sake.
She obviously wants to help people. The only problem is, the only “help” she’s going to give will be in the form of holding back the progress of science and bashing gays.
October 24th, 2006 at 8:12 pm
To whom it may concern,
There was a time in my life when I didn’t believe in GOD. Oh how lost and disturbed I was for 23 years. Just like the man who shot the kids in that Omish school. He said he was empty on the inside, just like I was then. He said he couldn’t bear it all in his suicide note, If only he could have found GOD he would have found comfort. Just like I did. Just like you are and I once was LOST! JESUS SAVES!!!!!!!!!
October 25th, 2006 at 12:31 am
lacey, it’s time for you medication again.
October 25th, 2006 at 7:27 am
Lacey,
Also, he was a pedophile and a sociopath, but I’m sure those are just peripheral reasons. What he needed was Jesus. What he couldn’t bear? No it wasn’t family problems or being teased like your average teen who feels “empty inside”. It was the fact that he couldn’t bear his urges anymore. The man needed therapy, not church.
October 25th, 2006 at 8:49 am
What was up with that shot from Braveheart in the middle?
October 25th, 2006 at 9:40 am
Oh my, I just finally watched this…. I’m ill now. Seriously physically ill. Listening to a girl screaming for the end of her life so that she can be in heaven where nothing will matter and claiming that the only thing that should matter in this world is faith… MORE than having a roof over your head?
These poor children have their whole lives ahead, and they’ve already given them up to wait for the end when everything will be better. I really don’t have much room for a witty or thrashing response… I’m just sick to my stomach and about two minutes from losing my breakfast. I think I agree with Dawkins now, teaching children faith is near equivical to child abuse.
October 28th, 2006 at 9:28 am
another dose of jesus
December 18th, 2006 at 2:01 am
Damn that bitches voice was annoying, We Dont Ask WE COMMAND YOU(when she was talkin 2 da devil) AHAHAHAHAH That shit was hilarious
December 18th, 2006 at 4:05 am
Fuck… fuck.
Fuck.
I’m SCARED.
January 13th, 2007 at 11:53 pm
I happen to be the mother of one of these next generation Jesus freaks as you call them, and I can tell you that at the age of 5 my daughter knew more about who God and Jesus are than most “religious” adults. She fully understands who He is, and it has been her choice to do so. These children do not blindly follow along as you suppose…no one who believes in the TRUE God of Israel does. It is those who chose to walk away from the truth of God’s Word that are blind. We all have a choice…to accept or reject His gift of grace. My child made the choice to believe Him and accept that gift of her own volition. And it is for people like you that these children pray despite your mockery and disdain of them.
January 14th, 2007 at 12:01 am
P.S. My daughter is now 13, and has not walked away from her decision to follow the Lord 8 years ago.
she says to tell you all that it is for people like you she prays daily, that you, too, may have your blinded eyes opened to the Truth before the day you actually stand before the One you deny. Then, your eyes will definitely be opened as you will see Him face to face, but it will be too late- your fate will be sealed and consigned to the pits of Hell.
January 14th, 2007 at 12:19 am
More hell threats… I wish you religious guys would come up with something more original to sway us “blind” people.
Can I have your daughter’s opinion of why we should follow Him(God of israel you call Him?) and not one of the countless other gods? And no saying that somebody died on a cross for us, because there are some other gods who did as much and more for humankind(according to their own religion)
Thanks for the prayer. Just change “open their blinded eyes” to “show them evidence” and I’ll surely convert as soon as He does.
January 14th, 2007 at 1:33 am
To Anonymous:
Ask God to show you evidence He exists with a heart that is sincere and OPEN to His answer and then read the Bible. Or perhaps you would like scientific evidence that supports the claims that only the Holy Bible makes(and no other “god” or their book can claim as their own)? Go to http://www.reasonstobelieve.com. Evidence He exists is all around us…everywhere.
And BTW, Hell is not a threat or a sway tactic, it is a reality.
January 14th, 2007 at 1:36 am
Addendum:
The link I posted above was the wrong addie. The correct link is as follows: http://www.reasons.org
January 14th, 2007 at 4:25 pm
God uses the weak things of this world to confound the wise.
January 14th, 2007 at 5:49 pm
I’m way too tired to post anything big right now, so i’ll try to just make a few points(yes i’m Anonymous from before)
Christianity(god of israel?) is the only religion claiming prior knowledge of scientific facts. Wrong: islam claims the same: http://www.answering-christianity.com/sci_quran.htm
my opinion: Both religions rely on stretching the meanings of some words and reinterpretting verses until it becomes unbearable.(yes i did read the scientific evidence in your website)
Hell is a reality: it’s a reality for you, because you torture yourself with the idea of eternal suffering. Until you prove in one way or another that hell is real, I guess we can say it’s not real enough for us average people(that reads NOT religious)
Asking god for evidence: Been there, done that. Or do you think it’s easy to abandon religion when i grew up in a society where religion is pretty much everything? But if being “open minded” about this evidence means not taking into account other scientific facts i know and being oblivious of stretched translations I guess I will have to be against God(tm) for all eternity.
May I ask another question? How can a child that is only 8 or 13 years old decide such things for herself? Did he/she read the original Holy Texts or just listened to a religious dude? We don’t allow children much for themselves before they are 18. Why is religion different?
January 14th, 2007 at 5:50 pm
Oh just in case you’re interested in hearing how science and religion meet, you’re welcome to read it on a scientific forum:
http://www.thescienceforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=5293&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0
January 18th, 2007 at 12:55 am
Open your eyes and see that this is the power of God. If you don’t repent and turn to the truth that is in Jesus Christ then you will be sent to hell for eternity.
God will use the youth and the weak to turn the nations to Christ.
January 18th, 2007 at 12:36 pm
Oh no, we have another Andrew, I’m going to have to come up with a nickname or something.
January 18th, 2007 at 1:35 pm
CrazyAndrew said:
“God will use the youth and the weak to…”
Let’s suppose for a moment that this is true… that the “youth and the weak” are being used and manipulated by “God” in order to achieve some end that “God” is seeking.
What does this tell us?
a) The youth and the weak lack free will, since “god” is actively using them, and
b) this God’s powers are limited, since he has to resort to manipulating little earth-critters in order to attempt to achieve some desired result. Simply that there could be something that God desires shows us that God is not omnipotent.
Fortunately for us, we have free will (more or less) and there is no god — an excellent combination, imo.
January 18th, 2007 at 4:44 pm
Oh where to begin… I have learned that in discussions about how I have read the bible with a heart that sincerely wanted answers and found only contradiction, injustice and hatred disguised as piety, I’m not allowed to start with the old testament. Something about that only applying to the laws of the nation of Israel or something (this of course leads to me wondering why its even in the bible if Christians are allowed to dismiss it so fast). Give that, lets just mosey right on into the new testament. So with that, lets begin
Humanistic Jones’ “Betcha didn’t know that was in the Bible!”
Today we have a mother so proud of her daughter for making the right choice and choosing to follow God and Christianity. Give that both of you are women and a family, I think you may find a few passages here interesting.
Jesus was a real family man wasn’t he? Despite never marrying himself, we all know that the traditional family was strongly supported by Christianity through its earliest writings, right? Oops, no, I’m sorry. See according to Matthew 19:29 “every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name’s sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life.” That’s right! Jesus calls to all his followers to forsake their own families. So much for the mother daughter bond there! But hey, that probably only applies to men, since Jesus specifically used the word men instead of everyone when he said that in Luke. And that’s okay then, because according to Paul in Romans 1:27, the whole reason that homosexuality is wrong is that “likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another” Clearly men can easily abandon their families because women are just there to be USED for their affections.
You may want to ask your pastor about these things… wait, no you shouldn’t do that. Remember that in 1 Corintians 14:34-35 “Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.” So just remember that you should both keep quite in church at all times and just wait till you get home to ask your husband what everything means (and I sure hope you aren’t divorced, there’s a good bit about that in here). Do you have a job where you hold rank over a man? Maybe you are a teacher? Heck most of my teachers were women, which may explain why I grew up into such a heathen because in 1 Timothy 2:12 Paul lets us know that he will “suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.” So I guess that women just need to stay at home and be subjigated by their husbands, as Paul states many many times in his letters.
Its not quite as colorful as the old testament (what with that righteous gang rape in Judges and such) but I think that should be enough to mill about. Have your daughter take a look at it, since it is going to be very important that she start getting ready now to be a man’s subjigation subject… I mean wife.
I do await your thoughts on these. I really like hearing the responses.
January 24th, 2007 at 2:03 pm
“It takes far more faith to believe in something that you can’t see, feel or hear then it does in something you can see, feel and hear.”
Read 1 Timothy 3:1-5. Tell me your thoughts…anyone?
Here’s a question to answer: “With what source does an Atheist conclude that there is no God?”
waiting for response!
January 24th, 2007 at 2:07 pm
Pastor Guy, you crack me up. Lemme ask you a question:
“With what source does a Christian conclude that there is no Flying Spaghetti Monster?â€
waiting for a response!
But seriously, you have to prove that God exists. We don’t have to prove anything.
gasmonso
January 24th, 2007 at 2:56 pm
Or to use Bertrand Russell’s celestial teapot. Quoting Russell:
“Many orthodox people speak as though it were the business of sceptics to disprove received dogmas rather than of dogmatists to prove them. This is, of course, a mistake. If I were to suggest that between the Earth and Mars there is a china teapot revolving about the sun in an elliptical orbit, nobody would be able to disprove my assertion provided I were careful to add that the teapot is too small to be revealed even by our most powerful telescopes. But if I were to go on to say that, since my assertion cannot be disproved, it is intolerable presumption on the part of human reason to doubt it, I should rightly be thought to be talking nonsense. If, however, the existence of such a teapot were affirmed in ancient books, taught as the sacred truth every Sunday, and instilled into the minds of children at school, hesitation to believe in its existence would become a mark of eccentricity and entitle the doubter to the attentions of the psychiatrist in an enlightened age or of the Inquisitor in an earlier time.”
Source: http://www.positiveatheism.org/hist/quotes/russell.htm
January 24th, 2007 at 3:03 pm
For those without a copy of The Damn Bible (thank you Penn):
1 Timothy 3:1-5 This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work. A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach; Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous; One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity; (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)
So, lets see here. My thoughts, one, this proves that the Catholic church should lift that celebacy thing, at least in relation to Bishops. But what exactly do we think it means to have your children in subjection. Maybe that word has a bit of a negative conotation now, but it sounds to me like a Bishop should have his children cowering before him.
January 24th, 2007 at 3:13 pm
“A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife…”
Does this suggest that a Bishop must be married? Doesn’t it suggest that its okay for a layman to have more than one wife?
January 31st, 2007 at 5:03 am
You are so right gasmonso dude, we don’t have to prove that God exists. I also agree that some religions get out of hand; like blowing self and bus passengers up, shooting abortion doctors, judging, cursing and condemning people in the name of “god” (Who’s god and what god i have to wonder).
The bible is full of accounts where religious people loose touch with God and mess things up. These are leasons for teaching. Consequences are also illustrated.
Jesus slammed the holy rollers of the day by calling them hypocrites and sons of satan. They didn’t get it because they followed the law (ten commandments) and thought that was sufficient to achieve “heaven”.
The God most Christians believe in, is one who require a personal relationship with Jesus. Who is he? Where is he? Ya earnestly seek Him and you’ll find Him.
Your heart is where your treasure is, be it money, babes, party, drugs, attention, whatever, that is your religion.
Mine is: hang with Jesus and He will be faithful to educate, and care for me. Loose touch with my Lord and i could get lost into a religious hate fest.
my humble opinion folks.
February 5th, 2007 at 5:13 pm
If there is no God as some on this site suggest, what is evil? If I have free will, and I do, and I can be the god of my own life, where is your authority to tell me I’m wrong? If the world is really all about survival of the fittest, or if it makes you more comfortable, natural selection, then I cannot be held liable for preying on the weaker of the species as I’m only doing what is “natural”. Weeding out the weak, sick and the lame for the survival of man. Without God there really is no basis for morality. It turns into opinion, “I don’t think you should be allowed to do that!” If you want to say the majority rules in deciding morality, then you really don’t have free will do you! Everyone reading this has been bothered by their concience before. You can fly anywhere in the world, and know nothing of the culture but can be certain you know what not to do (for the most part). We all know the way we should behave and many times make concious decisions to go against what we know to be right. Where does your concience come from? If you say from your environment or upbringing I could show you people that had a very violent and rotten upbringing and decide to live a loving and peaceful life and vice versa. Actually proving the existence of God is not the burden of a Christian. He is only to spread the Good News of Salvation. The burden of proof of the absence of God really lies with the unbeliever. The universe without God doesn’t make sense and, I think, would really be boring. (Einstein made a similar statement - which is a bit scary if you are agnostic)Guys, who put the longing in your heart to rescue the woman in distress? Ladies, who put the longing to rescued in you? Science is only discovering how He does it (and we’re still farting around with stem cells and lasers) Step outside tonight and check a few of the 100 million galaxies, each with 100 million stars. Maybe you can explain to me how a penguin knows to walk 70 miles to an exact location before laying its egg. Our explaination: instinct, it “just knows”. Right! it’s a bird, man. With a brain the size of an acorn! You don’t have to believe that I typed this on a Dell laptop but I did. You don’t have to believe, sadly as most people don’t, that God is, but He is. And everyone reading this has an appointment with Him. It reminds me of that old oil change commercial. You can kneel now, or you will kneel later. And therin lies the true source of the debate. Christians believe in an uncreated, omnipotent, omnipresent, immutable God who created this universe and everything in it and have surrendered their freewill to His will or the unbeliever that puts himself on the throne of his own heart so he can do whatever pleases himself and the world revolves around him. The first one is more believable and far more atractive. BTW, who made the big ball of stuff that was just hanging in the middle of the universe before the big bang? …….(Pssssst, it was my Daddy…..He can be your Daddy too!)
February 5th, 2007 at 6:39 pm
“Actually proving the existence of God is not the burden of a Christian.”
Alright, I was gonna let this slide like all the turkish posts until i got to this little nugget. Anyone who knows anything about the scientific method knows when you propose a theory YOU HAVE TO SHOW EVIDENCE. There’s no evidence for a god, so for us to try to disprove it would be a waste of time since it has yet to be made falsifiable.
February 5th, 2007 at 6:42 pm
Hello Mic,
Your objection to atheism is one that those of us who frequent the site see often. I guess I’ll make it my turn to answer.
Fundamentally, you claim that without God, there can be no morality. Yet there are a couple of ways to rationally derive common morality without appealing to anything supernatural. The basics of one of them go like this:
1. I do not want to be treated in such a manner that I do not suffer.
2. Other people have a similar desire not to suffer.
3. Thus, I should treat others as I want to be treated.
The conclusion, 3, is nothing other than the golden rule. 1 is true a-priory. 2 can be seen through evidence. For instance, others react to stubbing their toes much in the same way that I do. Thus they must have a similar experience of pain and a similar desire to not experience that pain. Otherwise some people would go around purposely stubbing their toes!
There are other rationally-derived ethical systems such as various forms of consequentialism, but for the sake of saving space, I’ll provide just the one.
Also, our conscious needs no supernatural source. It can easily be explained by evolutionary theory. Our conscious is a moral instinct. Having this moral instinct enabled humans to develop trust and to better cooperate. In fact, one of our species best survival traits is our ability to cooperate. Knowing that the person next to me has a moral instinct allows me to know that he/she won’t likely steal from me the moment I turn my back.
“The burden of proof of the absence of God really lies with the unbeliever”
You should take an introduction to logic course. The burden of proof always lies with the person making the positive claim.
You then go one to give a quick argument for the existence of God based on design. But intelligent design arguments fail because of the existence of spontaneous complexity in the universe.
Lastly you give a version of the age-old cosmological argument, that God created the Big Bang. I actually agree with you, in a sense, there. I believe God is the Ultimate Cause of the Big Bang, if not the direct cause. But this still comes FAR short of proving the existence of the Christian God. It only proves the existence of a metaphysically-necessary being.
In short, even as a theist, I utterly reject that moral truth can come from anything other than rationality. Furthermore, I find many aspects of Christian ‘morality’ downright evil. Especially the arbitrary rules about sexuality and its ‘ethic of suffering’.
I’m looking forward to your thoughts.
February 5th, 2007 at 7:46 pm
You never actually addressed several of my initial questions and I will repeat them here.
1. If there is no God as some on this site suggest, what is evil?
2.If I have free will (in the absence of God), and I can be the god of my own life, where is your authority to tell me I’m wrong?
3.If the world is really all about survival of the fittest, or if it makes you more comfortable, natural selection, then I cannot be held liable for preying on the weaker of the species as I’m only doing what is “naturalâ€. Weeding out the weak, sick and the lame for the survival of man.
4. Who is determining “rational” in your rational arguement? Sadists love to suffer. When I look at humanity it seems we must love pain since we inflict so much on each other.
5. A moral instinct? I guess when we have no other answer we pull out an “instinct” card. Instinct, okay God put the software into the computer. I just can’t believe it “popped” into place. I can hear Carl sagan now: “Then one day the ape-men all clasped hands and danced around the fire in their new-found trust(I apolegize if that sounds too sarcastic but I couldn’t resist, I promise to not say anything else about Carl)
6. You said “Furthermore, I find many aspects of Christian ‘morality’ downright evil. Especially the arbitrary rules about sexuality and its ‘ethic of suffering’.” This isn’t rational but editorializing. Familiarize me with the arbitrary rules and the ethic of suffering.
7. My point with the burden of proof could have been explained better. God calls me to tell others about Him. Not to convince people of His existence. (He doesn’t need me to do that)The Holy Spirit does the work in the hearts of men. Truly coming to believe in Jesus as your Lord and Saviour is a change of the heart. No one can be “talked” into it. And those who are pressured into some kind of a forced confession of faith (I regret to admit that this happens)are no more a child of God than you. (No offense intended) I do not feel any pressure to prove the existence of God. The burden of proof is on the unbeliever because if he is wrong, the consequences will be quite disasterous for him (and I believe they will be). I came to this site for the video and was moved to tell you about the One I know. I just want to encourage any who may be searching that He is quite real. I am a former (and quite devout) atheist that has been blown away by God. I am quite secure in my faith and am growing closer with Him daily. I am more than happy to answer your questions.
February 5th, 2007 at 10:39 pm
Hello Mic,
Actually, I did address most of your questions, just indirectly. If you require that I be more direct than so be it.
1. Any act which violates the rationally derived morality.
2. We don’t have free will.
3. Your understanding of evolution is extraordinarily narrow. Survival of the fittest is not the same thing as death of the weakest. As I pointed out in my last post, cooperation makes the human race ‘fit’ for survival. Killing the weaker humans undermines cooperation and our survival.
4. Actually, masochist love pain, sadists love to inflict suffering. A masochist does not suffer from pain, but derives pleasure from pain. And, obviously the reason we cause one another to suffer is lack of adherence to the golden rule. Having a moral system doesn’t ensure adherence.
5. Too funny! I ‘pull out the instinct card’ whereas the moment a religious person does not understand something complicated, it MUST be God’s doing (the pull out the God card). I demonstrated that evolution is, or at least can, be the source of our moral instinct. Your Sagan fantasy only demonstrates the most common fallacy I find amongst evolution deniers. They can’t imagine slow, incremental change. Evolution is never an ‘all the sudden’ thing for any of its changes.
6. Discussing the shortfalls of the Christian ethic would take us too far off topic, I’m afraid. If you really want to discuss that instead, let us fully switch topics.
7. Nope, you imagine that God calls you to tell others about ‘Him’. I can understand why. Imagining such a thing garners a lot of positive feed back from other religious people. That aside, you’re unintentionally misusing the phrase “Burden of Proof”. You are using to indicate that you assume God’s existence and would require proof of Its non-existence (if such a thing were possible). In classic western philosophy it’s used to indicate who must prove their claim to an impartial third party. In our case that third party would be an agnostic (the non-militant kind) and the burden of proof would be on you to convince the agnostic.
Based on your last few sentences, I know I’m not going to able to change your mind. I have found that “being secure in faith” is the same as “I’m going to believe this no matter what evidence or logic is presented.” It saddens me to think that and I hope I am wrong. At the very least, please don’t let others interpret the meaning of the Bible for you. Please, please, please read it with no preconceptions and form your own interpretations. There are far too many people taken advantage of others by claiming they have the only “correct” interpretation. All they are doing is picking and choosing portions of the text that support their power grab.
February 6th, 2007 at 1:05 am
I understand the “classical” usage of the phrase “Burden of proof” and I have been intentionally using it in a different context. I don’t think you “heard” me when I said I don’t feel any pressure from God or anyone to prove His existence. Many people who are unsure of their faith in God (or agnosticism/ atheism for that matter)want someone to reaffirm their decision and feel they must prove their point. You are also missing the point that a decision to follow God is a decision of the heart. Logic is not a part of the equation. Our heads get so much in the way of our relationships with Him. Take prayer for example. It is not logical to us that true prayer works like this: God initiates us to pray by speaking into our hearts what He wants to do so that we pray it out in the faith that He will do it because He told us and then He does it. It doesn’t make a lick of sense but I see it work all the time! You are absolutely correct in saying I will not be moved. Why on earth would you be sad that I have an intimate relationship with the Almighty? The saddest thing I can think of, because I know what it feels like, is that so many people are scared to open up to the possibility that there is something in this universe that is bigger than they are and that they just might not be in control. That they might not be the “center”. It is sad to me to think that Christ died for everyone and that people will not give Him the reward He deserves. Want to know what is sad, check out just in the Bible how many times people tell God they will not follow Him. His love is beyond knowledge, yet we push Him away. Another sad example, He sees what we do to each other out of hate and lust and power. All the sin that goes on out of sight. And He grieves. He gave us freewill to choose Him or to choose us. Look at what our choice has wrought. Thanks for listening.
February 6th, 2007 at 9:25 am
“Logic is not a part of the equation”
You will hence forth be ignored.
February 6th, 2007 at 10:43 am
If you have ever been in love you know that logic plays no part in falling for someone. (unless you are Spock I guess) Do you interview your potential friends to determine the logic in doing things together? Besides, it is possible I speak truth and to ignore me would be illogical, would it not?
February 6th, 2007 at 11:19 am
Ok, I’ll take the bait ;)
Of course, not all decisions should be based on logic. Your example of falling in love or making friends are great examples of this. I DO, however, use logic to determine whether or not to stay with someone I love or who to remain friends with. It’s something I advise everyone to do least they end up in a dead-end marriage because they foolishly believed that ‘love can conquer all’.
These sorts of decisions are very different from making existential claims. Just as love can trick a person into believing that they are in a healthy relationship, emotions can trick people into believing in the Christian God. I would take the analogy one step further. I’d say that many Christians, yourself included, are so in love with the Christian God that you blind yourself to ‘His’ flaws.
My “You will henceforth (correct spelling now) be ignored” was a bit unfairly curt and for that, I apologize. What I meant to convey was that I’m not going to put forth much effort (this post not withstanding) to argue with you since those who deny logic cannot be swayed by it. I was correct in ascertaining that you are of the sort who will believe in certain things regardless of the evidence and reasoning to the contrary.
February 6th, 2007 at 1:46 pm
Thank you for your response! First I want to say that I would refer to this as dialogue, not an arguement. Second, I don’t deny logic entirely, but some things (God included) cannot be defined through logic. Third, I think the opposite (lacking a better term) of your final statement is also true; Those who don’t believe in or deny love cannot be swayed by it. I will leave you with a scripture that says it better than I can.
1 COR 2:14 But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.
Enjoying our talk, Mic
February 6th, 2007 at 2:06 pm
Hello again, Mic,
I’m so accustom to speaking of “argument” in the sense it is used in philosophy and forget that the word has a negative connotation to most people. So a discussion it is.
“I don’t deny logic entirely, but some things (God included) cannot be defined through logic.”
This leads me to ask a question: how does one distinguish between logic is appropriate and when it is not? Also, I have no doubt that you feel a personal relationship with Jesus and/or God. I also have no doubt there are many Muslims who feel the same way about Mohamed and/or Allah. Others have a deep, gut-feeling that there is no God. I’ve known pagans who feel a close emotional connection to Gia, the earth-spirit. There are many, many other examples. If we are to accord ‘feeling’ the same legitimacy as ‘reason’ when establishing truth, how are we to sort out which person’s feeling is most correct?
I realize these are tough questions, but the most important questions are the tough ones.
“Those who don’t believe in or deny love cannot be swayed by it.”
I wish that were true. I don’t believe in love (in the sense that it can overcome all differences and disagreements), but have been far too swayed by it by staying in bad relationships far too long. I’m glad that is in the past. More on topic: I don’t deny love, or any other emotion, and its power to influence us. I only deny that it is a reliable basis on which to make existential claims. A small child can love his invisible friend ‘Bob’ to death, but it doesn’t mean Bob actually exists. Emotions certainly have their place, but it is not in science or metaphysics.
PS I am enjoying this discussion as well.
February 6th, 2007 at 5:01 pm
I see your point about the power of love to sway. Swayed was not the best word to convey my thought. Maybe “convinced” is better in that sentence. I would submit that we, as a culture, have come to regard love only as an emotion and that this is inaccurate. There is a Christian CD called “Love is a Verb” and this is another (some might say more Biblical) way of defining it. I want to say, for the record if you will, that Christianity is not based on “feeling”. I agree with you that truth is not based on what you “feel”. But “God is love” so some emotions are involved in the way we relate/ communicate with Him. My time is short so I will leave you with a question I thought of asking you today.
Why do most people with the belief that there is no God or life after death spend so much time and resource doing things and consuming stuff that shortens the very life they only have one of? That is not very logical.
Anxiously awaiting your reply.
February 6th, 2007 at 5:22 pm
“Why do most people with the belief that there is no God or life after death spend so much time and resource doing things and consuming stuff that shortens the very life they only have one of? That is not very logical.”
What does that mean? do you think we are all crazy party animals that drink, smoke, and have unprotected sex with stranger? Youll listen to anything your fellow christians tell you, wont you?
February 6th, 2007 at 6:01 pm
Hello Mic,
I think that irishthunder (a fellow North Carolinian, if I’m not mistaken) is right. You may be a tad bit misinformed about atheists. They have a tendency to NOT do self-destructive things precisely because they value their one and only life so much. Atheists are the most vilified group in America because of religious propaganda that portrays atheism as synonymous with an immoral lifestyle. In fact, there is evidence to the opposite on a whole-society level. I know your time was short, so perhaps you would be willing to clarify exactly how you came about your belief that atheism = self-destructive when you have more of it.
If you are willing, I’d also ask you to clarify your definition of love and why your definition allows for it to be the basis on which one can establish the validity of the Christian faith (as opposed to any other faith). I sorry to admit that I don’t quite get what you were trying to say.
I hope to hear from you when you have more time!
February 6th, 2007 at 6:49 pm
You know, I never thought of it that way but maybe it is true. I am an Atheist. I also don’t drink, smoke, or do drugs. Could it be THAT is the reason I don’t do those things when SO many people around me do (at least one, some poor folks all of them)? Because I KNOW that this is the one and only existence I will have? I am going to have to think on that one a bit.
February 6th, 2007 at 10:02 pm
First, This is not true - “Youll listen to anything your fellow christians tell you, wont you?”
Second - I apologize to anyone that may have been offended in my last comment. That was not the intent. I’m sorry.
Michael says “You know, I never thought of it that way but maybe it is true. I am an Atheist. I also don’t drink, smoke, or do drugs. Could it be THAT is the reason I don’t do those things when SO many people around me do” My question rephrased is: Who are these “SO many” people and what’s up with that?
Third - Is sidfaiwu your actual name and if so, could you pronounce it please? I would like a better “picture” of who I’m talking to.
February 6th, 2007 at 10:48 pm
Hey Mic,
Sid Faiwu is not my real name. It is a pseudonym that I have been using for about 20 years. Sid is pronounced exactly as it looks. Faiwu is pronounced ‘FAY-woo’. It rhymes with ‘PAY’ and ‘do’.
I prefer to maintain my thin veil of online anonymity, so I won’t give my real name. If anyone is REALLY curious, it can be determined with only minimal research, but I humbly request that no one does this.
Since this probably doesn’t provide that great of a picture of who I am, I’ll provide some basic demographic data:
Caucasian male, approx. 30 years of age. Married, no children. Has a Masters degree in applied mathematics and works as financial analyst for a major US bank.
Also, relevant to the theme of this site, I was raised as a souther baptist (but in the Midwest), but rejected that religion in my early 20’s and eventually became a Deist.
February 6th, 2007 at 11:04 pm
“First, This is not true - “Youll listen to anything your fellow christians tell you, wont you?—
If thats not true then please tell me where you got that idea. I have a good amount of atheist and christian friends, guess which are the ones that drink 4+ nights a week, randomly hookup with strangers , and smoke pot? Now im no angel( i play college rugby, it comes with the territory), but i make a point not do anything too crazy.
February 7th, 2007 at 11:52 am
Morning Sid, Irish,
It could be that God has used you to shed some light on something for me. Maybe these folks are part of the 85% or so of America who “claim” Christianity but, as some people say, they are just not “practicing”. It could be some of these people are “sitting on the fence” adhereing to no discernable belief system other than “self”. I’ll have to pray about this.
A question for you Sid:
You say you are a Deist. My understanding of Deism is that you believe God put things in motion and is now in observation mode. I realize this definition is simplified but is this more or less accurate and if so, why did you reach this conclusion?
FYI
I am Caucasian male, 40, married, 4 kids, (22,19,17,16), retired Army NCO, Associates degree, webmaster. Pertinent to this site: Unbeliever/atheist until I was 30, when I started investigating the possibility of God and eventually accepted Jesus as my Saviour. I promptly returned to living life the way I wanted to until God really grabbed me in 2003 and I made Him Lord (He won’t be Saviour if He can’t be Lord). Baptised in the Holy Ghost in 2005, it is no longer I but Christ in me.
Thanks for telling me about yourself, I won’t dig any further. How about you, Irish?
Later, Mic
February 7th, 2007 at 12:57 pm
In case your wondering irishthunder is NOT my real name. Im 19 and a college student majoring in computer and electrical engineering, born and raised in North Carolina(we gotta chill sometime Sid). I was lucky enough to have open-minded parents that let me explore religions, they’re methodist and are very active in the church. Im pretty active with it too when it comes to the volunteer work they do. But as far as faith goes, whenever i went to church i felt i was just going through the motions, i thought there was something wrong with me. After spending a lot of time with my pastor, friends and a few counselors, I finally realized that there was no way i could ever be a christian.
February 7th, 2007 at 1:58 pm
Hello irishthunder,
Which college? The closest major campus to me is UNCC.
Hello Mic,
I would be glad to tell you how I came to Deism.
First a side note: I apologize to all the regular readers of ReligiousFreaks who have heard this from me multiple times now. If and when the forum is brought back, I’ll make a permanent link with this info that I’ll simply reference in the future.
I actually became a Deist long before I even knew what Deism is. After rejecting Christianity (a process that took years in it’s own right) as being too inconsistent and, under common interpretations, immoral, I began a search for truth. I experimented with other religions, eventually finding all of them equally flawed. Eventually, I ended up taking an into to philosophy course at the university I was attending. I was hooked. One of the first things truths I discovered was that reason is the only reliable tool to uncover further truth. I have been studying philosophy on and off ever since.
As is inevitably in studying western philosophy, I came across several rational arguments for the existence of God. Almost all of which have highly credible critiques rendering them flawed. One has withstood all critiques, in my opinion, at that is the modal version of the cosmological argument. A very basic way of phrasing the argument is that the fact that there is anything exists at all rather than nothing at all requires an explanation. The only explanation is that ultimately, everything depends on a metaphysically necessary thing. “God” is an appropriate title to bestow on such an object.
Equipped with the modal version of the Cosmological Argument, I transfered from a post-Christian agnostic to a theist, though my concept of God was very simple. In simple terms all I knew for certain was that God created everything (It is omnific). I don’t know if It is sexed, good, evil, intelligent, has a personality, or human-like in any way.
Several month back, I was asked to write an article for ReligiousFreaks about whether or not America is a Christian nation (I can link the article if you are interested). In the process of researching said article, I was surprised to learn that several founding fathers had very similar beliefs (Thomas Jefferson, Benjamin Franklin, Thomas Paine, Ethan Allen, etc.) and they called their belief system Deism.
From this I learned that Deism is belief in God based on reason and evidence. It was born out of the European Enlightenment. Some early European Deist of note include Adam Smith, David Hume, and Voltaire. Rationality is the prime concern of the religion. It also emphasizes self-reliance, since God does not intervene in the affairs of man (there are some Deist who do believe in an interventionist God).
I hope this helps!
February 7th, 2007 at 2:26 pm
Sid,
Thanks for the explanation. Do you have a reason to be on a discussion board like this or do you just enjoy the company?;) What I mean is, are you attempting to convince others to adopt your beliefs or are you seeking truth wherever it may lead or just like exchanging ideas or what?
Mic
February 7th, 2007 at 2:57 pm
Well, there are several reasons I frequent this site. I can break them down into a few categories: solidarity and company, intellectual stimulation, information gathering, and entertainment.
My emphasis on the importance of rationality and evidence give me a lot in common with the atheists who also frequent this site. I also share their condemnation of revealed religions. Furthermore, I have been alarmed at the rise of political power of the fundamentalist elements here in the US. Religion + politics inevitably leads to conflict and violence. Another reason I enjoy the company of atheists and agnostics is that I find them to be, by and large, intelligent, thoughtful, and interesting people. For those reasons, I am here for the solidarity and the company.
I also love to exchange ideas. There are enough religious contributors to this site that I can engage in interesting debates and/or philosophical arguments, such as the one we were having. The atheists also keep me honest about my beliefs. They often critique my reasons for believing in God and in doing so, they ensure that I’m not making assumptions about the nature of God that the Cosmological Argument does not permit me to make. Sometimes, a story or a comment will make me think about tough issues that I had not considered before.
Information and news is another reason I come here. One of my main causes is fighting fundamentalism, since it is the antithesis of reason and evidence. This site provides me with relevant news about fundamentalism as well as tools and ideas to fight the spread of said affront to common sense.
The final reason I come here is shear entertainment. Many of the stories are quite humorous as are the comments.
It’s my turn to ask you a question, Mic, and try to be as unbiased and honest as possible. If you grew up and/or lived in a non-Christian culture, would you still have become a Christian? I know these sort of ‘what ifs’ are tough to answer, but I really have to wonder when a vast majority of religious people end up with the same religion as their parents and/or culture. I would ask you what the reasons are that you believe Christianity, but from your previous comments, it seems that you do so ultimately because it feels right. Please correct me if I’m wrong.
February 7th, 2007 at 3:26 pm
The first question is a “what if” that has so many realistic variables (I know you know what I mean) that the best, and most honest answer is “I don’t know”. On the contrary, I don’t follow Christ because it feels right. I follow Christ because I have had a real encounter with Him. I know that is hard for you to fathom, much less believe, but it is true. I can understand your doubt as to the validity of many Christians by the lack of a credible witness of Christ in their lives. Unfortunately, many of these people are doing exactly what you say, adopting Christianity because their parents did. Not because they have had a true encounter with Christ. Then, when they get out on their own, they “fall away” because they never were “there”. Some keep going to church because they have friends there or to network or to make themselves feel better. Billy Graham even estimates only about 5% of all the people who answer the alter calls in his crusades actually come to Christ. That being said, there are many people living for Christ in the world. Gotta run, Mic
February 7th, 2007 at 3:40 pm
5% huh? would that be one of the 73% of statistics that are made up on the spot? =)
I’d like to hear more about your encounter with jesus. Was it an interpretation of things that happened in your life? Was it some kind of trance in which you actually saw him? Or was it one of those times where you “felt” it among a very large group of people undergoing what HAS been explained as mass psychosis?
How can you be SO sure that what you experienced was really jesus or w/e you believe, when there are so many rational explainations that can explain it?
While we’re on the topic I have another question. You mentioned crusades… so, do you actually believe in faith healing by con artists like Benny Hinn? If you do, do yourself a favor and what this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W4t9APdSG30).
February 7th, 2007 at 3:46 pm
Mic,
Please define ‘real encounter’. Why did Jesus single you out for a ‘real encounter’? If such an encounter is so convincing, why doesn’t Jesus have a real encounter with every human being? Is it because Jesus isn’t powerful enough? Is it because he doesn’t know how to have an equally powerful encounter with every person? Is it because he doesn’t care about everyone else as much as he cares about you?
You see, even if I believe you (I will withhold judgment until you have the opportunity to more clearly explain the nature of your encounter), such an encounter would raise so many questions and doubts about the nature of Jesus and his supposed divine status.
February 7th, 2007 at 6:23 pm
Sid,
I have no other words to describe it (and putting it to words really does it no justice, the encounter I mean) I will attempt to describe what happened. I went to a prayer meeting with my wife and another couple from my church. We got there and it was quite a charismatic meeting. I had never heard anyone speak in tongues before and it kind of messed with me. At that point I had not really looked into tongues but thought it was weird. Well, this pastor there askes if anyone wanted prayer to be filled with the Holy Spirit. This lady we were with raised her hand. I was being sceptical in my mind about this tongues thing. They laid hands on her and in a couple of minutes she started speaking i n tongues and praising God. Well my ears perked up so to speak. I had known this lady for a few years and she really had no reason to “play along” with this. Next, my wife raises her hand. Same thing happens and I’m thinking “I’ve been married to this woman for 20 years and I KNOW she isn’t making this up”. Then the thought hits me that I had been praying for power the whole week prior to this and not really understanding the prayer until now. So I raised my hand. Many people laid handson me and prayed, It took alot longer with me I believe due to my control issues and scepticism. But when I told God I would surrender everything to Him (and I meant it, that is key) He hit me with such power that my knees buckled, I went to the ground and could not get up for about an hour and a half. The whole time I was praying in tongues and I had no control over my body or my mouth. I actually tried to speak English and could not. The sense of sheer joy I felt was indescribable! During the time I was down, I saw a vision of the feet of Jesus in front of me and the sheer force of His presence caused me to do nothing but worship Him! I have sensed His presence since, but never so strong. You have to want God and not so you can get a thrill or have a neat story to tell. But to give yourself up to Him. He didn’t single me out, many people have had encounters with Jesus or God. You can too. If you are honestly seeking Him with no hidden agenda, you will find Him. I’m not sure what else to call that but an encounter. Gotta go to church, I’ll talk to you soon. Mic
February 7th, 2007 at 10:18 pm
The human mind, the power of suggestion, and mass psychosis are truly capable of incredible things.
February 7th, 2007 at 10:18 pm
“If you are honestly seeking Him with no hidden agenda, you will find Him.”
Thats really easy to say from your perspective, youv found him clearly you wanted to find him. Just as i did, i was 13 when i started to think there was something wrong with me, i wanted desperately to see a sign from god or somehow feel his presence. I know im not an expert but it seems like that whole experience could be attributed to suggestion. You put enough people in the room doing the same thing, your either gonna end up feeling the same thing, or getting the fuck outta that room.
February 7th, 2007 at 10:41 pm
@irishthunder
This next bit might look off-topic, but actually think it’s right on-topic. We have no reason to doubt Mic’s account of events - just as we have no reason to believe his conclusion that it was the magic sky-fairy, just because he is a little weak on neurobiology. That being the case, I really think we should avail ourselves of the obvious and natural explanations that biology provides.
For why, try here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirror_neuron
Mirror neurons are like our inter-brain Wi-Fi - the visual telepathy of feelings. There aren’t that many things unique about the human brain (it’s actually much smaller than an elephants for example), but of the features that really stand out, one is that we have orders of magnitudes more mirror neurons than other mamals. Not just a few more, but many many times more.
Given that we already know that religious feelings not only have a neurological underpinning, but know which nerves, and we can stimulate them artificially (http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/horizon/2003/godonbrainqa.shtml),
would it be such a stretch to expect that there might be mirror neurons in the temporal lobes, and that if you are in a room full of people who are tripping out their temproal lobes for fun, it could play serious havoc with your own spatial senses?
Perhaps Dawkin’s “mind virus” spreads just as well over an open “Wi-Fi” link as computer virii do?
February 7th, 2007 at 10:57 pm
Irish,
I’m sorry that you were made to feel that way, as if something was wrong with you. If you read my entry again, you will see that I was skeptical and, up until the point this happened, I was not having a good time and even considered leaving. God had other ideas. I really didn’t believe the gift of tongues was for the modern age. I now believe otherwise. You are free to call it suggestion if you want, many in the church do. I will say this though: Only people who don’t speak in tongues, disagree with the gift of tongues. I am merely trying to relate my encounter to you guys like Sid asked. Good night all, Mic
February 8th, 2007 at 7:16 am
From the NY Times: Researchers at the University of Pennsylvania took brain images of five women while they spoke in tongues and found that their frontal lobes — the thinking, willful part of the brain through which people control what they do — were relatively quiet, as were the language centers. The regions involved in maintaining self-consciousness were active. The women were not in blind trances, and it was unclear which region was driving the behavior.
Link to the story:
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/11/07/health/07brain.html?ei=5070&en=6d207cf06d200d34&ex=1171083600&adxnnl=1&adxnnlx=1170936526-d/yUZoKMYwMq2GwBHd0P9g
February 8th, 2007 at 8:24 am
@Mic
Very cool!! Thanks for that link!
I think it is so fascinating that functional imaging is beginning to reveal actual state changes that correspond to religious experience.
I do wonder though:
1) there is an organ, the brain, that generates sensation, thoughts, and feelings.
2) under certain voluntarily induced conditions, people experience different and new sensations, thoughts, and feelings.
3) functional imaging shows that under these voluntarily induced conditions, the organ is functioning in a new and different way
Why is there anything left to explain? Isn’t that just it?
Black belts can perform amazing feats of strenth, such as smashing a brick with thier bare hand. Orthordox explanations hold that they use magic “chi” power that that they push out of their hand to smash the brick. More modern studies using slow motion video and material science show how their co-ordinated muscle movement generates very high arm speeds, like baseball pitchers (who, as far as I know, do not use magic chi powers), and how the bones in their hand dislocate on impact letting their hand act like a wet bag of cement so the bones don’t break, and simple newtonian calculations also show that the force generated by the deceleration of this blob-of-hand excedes the load bearing strenth of the brick, as tested by hydraulic presses and other non-chi using means.
In the face of this, the chi claim seems a little shaky.
here we have your very real (and now I think demonstrably provable) sensations and behaviour, explained either by
1. changes in brain activity
or
2. by changes in brain activity because the holy spirit got in there and fiddled around with things, right when you told him to.
But I have to say, I will not be doubting again that you felt *something*. You have got me curious about what it feels like, it must have been quite a trip!!
I just have more faith in your self-control than you do, that’s all.
February 8th, 2007 at 10:56 am
I couldn’t view the entire video because the “prayers” of the children were filled with so much pain. It hurt me spiritually to hear their screams.
Recently I have attended a church which I think will become a large part of my life (finally and at long last of years of searching), and the reason for that is the message I consistently hear and experience from the pastors — that God = Joy. God = Love. Mic’s posts above struck a chord with me when he described the Joy he felt in the presence of the Christ.
To hear a child “praying” in such agonized sobs is just so wrong to me. Children should be happy and laughing. These children aren’t being taught the Love of God, they are subtly being taught intolerance, IMHO. I have much concern for their emotional development as they mature.
February 8th, 2007 at 11:56 am
Hey Mic,
Thanks for sharing. Are you Pentecostal, by chance? All of the descriptions of people’s behavior and experiences during a charismatic experience are strikingly similar to someone on dimethyltryptamine (DMT). DMT is a powerful hallucinogenic compound that causes users to have visions that are invariable interpreted as ’spiritual’ or ‘divine’. They also often will speak in tongues while tripping. Interestingly enough, the same compound is produced by the human brain, albeit in small quantities normally. A full technical source can be found by following this link. You can also just Google “dimethyltryptamine and glossolalia”.
DMT is often use in South American traditional religious practices to induce spiritual experiences. My guess is that glossolalia can cause the brain to release more DMT and induce a spiritual experience. This is what I believe to be happening to people during a charismatic experience.
Anyway, I definitely believe you had a significant experience. What I don’t believe is your interpretation of said encounter. There are several reasons you’d be predisposed to a Christian interpretation of your experience:
1. It took place during a Christian ceremony, of a sort.
2. You were already expecting something from God, since you said that you’d been praying for power from God for the days leading up to it. Thus, it was self-vindicating to adopt a Christian interpretation.
3. Everyone around also attributed their experience to God/Jesus.
4. The only explanation of what had happened immediately after your profound experience was from Christians who had an interest in you adopting a Christian interpretation.
Those are my thoughts. I’m interested in your response.
February 8th, 2007 at 12:03 pm
Dear Asta,
I agree with you that hearing young kids sob like that is difficult. It tugs at my heart. You say you have found a church after much searching so I am asuming you are a Christian. I will agree that God is Joy and He is Love, and as such His heart is hurting for those who turn from Him. True prayer is initiated by the Spirit. When He is hurting, we should be hurting. That is part of the “fellowship of His sufferings” (Phil 3:10)Check out Matthew 5 (sometimes referred to as Christianity 101) not a lot of love, joy , and happiness happening in that chapter. We are called to mourn and to be humble, contrite of heart (literally translated, ground into powder)Also, to conform God to our own image of Him (vice the way He really is) is a form of idolatry. So we must seek to know Him as He truly is. In my human perspective, knowledge, emotions and understanding, all those people who died in the flood (or Katrina for that matter) is a hard pill to swallow. I don’t get what He is doing sometimes, but I trust He is working all things for the good (RO 8:28) He is sovereign. He created it all and He owns it all, so He can give and He can take away. Isaiah 29:16
You turn things around!Shall the potter be considered as equal with the clay,That what is made would say to its maker, “He did not make me”;Or what is formed say to him who formed it, “He has no understanding”?
As for intolerence, Christians are called to love everyone. (I regret to admit this isn’t always the case) Christ loved, and prayed for, the soldiers nailing Him to the cross. He hung out with all the worst of sinners while on earth. But He didn’t endorse their lifestyle, He loved them and called them to repentence so He could spend eternity with them. He suffered and died for everyone and He desires the reward for His suffering. That is to spend eternity with you. Just thinking out loud:) Mic
February 8th, 2007 at 12:25 pm
@recovered catholic
You said “2. by changes in brain activity because the holy spirit got in there and fiddled around with things, right when you told him to.”
Small correction in that I never “told” Him, I actually surrendered to His will and He did whatever He wanted to from there.
Yes, I agree! I think it is fascinating how, through science and technology, we are starting to see how He does it! The part of the article that blew me away was how the speech center of the brain is not functioning while a person is speaking in tongues. Your faith in my self control is well placed, even scriptural, in that I allow the Spirit to speak and then He takes over. It is quite edifying. Mic
February 8th, 2007 at 12:32 pm
Hey, Mic.
I’ve already tried to post a response, but for whatever reason (a strange web link?), it hasn’t shown up yet. I’ll let you know when it’s released.
February 8th, 2007 at 12:46 pm
Ok Mic, it posted. It is post number 116. Let me know what you think.
February 8th, 2007 at 1:03 pm
@Sid,
Thank you, I will check out the site on DMT.
This is a plausible explanation for this phenomena in the natural(you may have even found out a bit of how He does it)and people who have not had such an experience may accept it. Two things it doesn’t touch on though are the dramatically different experiences of the two women that were with me (they had neither visions or loss of control, but spoke in tongues only) and right now I’m not hallucinating but am speaking in tongues. I like you Sid for you drag no prejudice to the table. I believe you truly seek the truth. Mic
“We are after the truth, wherever it might lead” - Carl Sagan
February 8th, 2007 at 1:15 pm
@Sid
Did you fully read the website on DMT? I can understand some people having difficulties with God but I believe most of us would have difficulties with some of the things this guy is writing about. Here is a quote:
“The psilocybin mushrooms also convey one into the world of the tryptamine hyper-
continuum. Indeed, psilocybin is a psychoactive tryptamine. The mushroom is full of
answers to the questions raised by its own presence. The true history of the galaxy over
the last four and a half billion years is trivial to it.”
There is no question that this guy is learned and a quite experienced pharmacological traveller. But I think we can both admit there is a difference between the effects one gets from smoking DMT (the beginning said it was an oral drug but he later refers to smoking it?) and praying. And if there isn’t, we can put the kingpins of coke out of business! Your thoughts? Mic
February 8th, 2007 at 1:23 pm
That is interesting, Mic. You are correct, speaking in tongues does not guarantee such an experience, so there must be something (in addition?) at work there. Am I correct in assuming that those who didn’t have hallucinations and loss of control had less profound experiences? Could it be that a lesser about of the neurotransmitter was released for them?
Glossolalia and DMT are definitely correlated. Furthermore, DMT often causes glossolalia. I was just hypothesizing that the converse might be true; maybe speaking in tongues can sometimes cause a DMT release of varying doses.
Thanks for the compliment. I like that you aim to reconcile science with your spirituality. It show a certain amount of spiritual maturity that your beliefs are not threatened by physical explanations.
I’m still interested in your response to some of the other questions I posed about your experience. If such an experience is so utterly convincing, why does God not simply induce such an experience in us all, so there would be no doubt? You can read post #107 for the detailed wording. Instead of ’single you out’, think of it as ’singling one group of people out’, or ‘you’ in the collective sense as in ‘all of you (who have had real encounters)’.
February 8th, 2007 at 1:31 pm
Hey Mic, (from your post #122)
I must of linked the wrong URL. I had a lot of websites opened while researching this topic. What did I accidentally do, link a Terrance McKenna publication? (Sid checks the link). I did! LOL. That fella is one interesting dude. He was an ethnopharmacologist for many years. I used to read his stuff in college. I’ll see if I can find the other link. It might have to wait though. DMT is a schedule 1 drug in the US and researching it while at work really isn’t the best idea.
February 8th, 2007 at 3:17 pm
Hey Sid,
In response to “If such an experience is so utterly convincing, why does God not simply induce such an experience in us all, so there would be no doubt?”
Why did He give us freewill? You don’t have any kids yet but maybe you can still relate to this. When my kids were little, sometimes they would run in the house after playing outside all day and say something like, “Dad, can I have/ do such and such?” and I want to give them those things but I want something too. So I say to them, “Slow down Buddy, come sit on my lap and give me a hug”. You see, I don’t want my kids to love me because I give them stuff, I want them to love me because I’m Dad and I love them. Same with God. He wants to give us so many good things (spiritual and physical) but in essence He is saying, “Hey, slow down little buddy and stay with me a while.” Jesus said to know the Father is eternal life. We have to spend time (giving up the stuff we want to do like go outside and play) getting to know Him. That means prayer. There are Christians right now in America that pray and worship God up to 14 hours a day! (check out http://www.ihop.org) I could just as easily say “Why am I not one of them?” We all have different levels of grace to do the things God calls us to. However, we all have the grace to come to Him. The library is calling me, Mic
February 8th, 2007 at 3:28 pm
BTW, not Pentacostal, just a Christian:)
February 8th, 2007 at 3:56 pm
@Mic
Curiouser and curiouser. Your article link stated the activation patterns in the prefrontal cortext was the *opposite* of what is seen with meditiation - and now what you describe sounds a little like the opposite of meditation - instead of deliberately concentrating on something, you deliberately “unconcentrated”. Fascinating stuff!
also,
There are a few parts to the “speech area”, brocas area, wernicke’s area and so on, and the article does not specify which are(s) was/were inactive - in any case, here we have someone who’s speech area is off line, and they open their mouth and nonsense comes out - isn’t that about exactly what you would expect???
I think you deserve some credit too - you do seem honestly very rational and to engage in open-minded discussion, and I think that’s a hard thing to do - I know I don’t do as well as Sid at leaving my preconceived ideas at home. However - do you really mean to say that for you the jury is still out on whether there is a natural or supernatural reason for what you experienced? I would have thought from some of what you say that your conclusions are already fixed? If so, do you see that as a vice or a virtue?
February 8th, 2007 at 4:15 pm
Hey Mic,
Ah, but I don’t believe in freewill, but that is another conversation. Even if there were such a thing as freewill, it’s still is a problem. Did God not know that freewill would lead to most people not being saved? Does God not have the power to grant freewill and ensure universal salvation? Or is it that God simply doesn’t care enough about humanity to ensure that we are all saved?
By the way, I’ll have to retract my DMT-Glossolalia hypothesis. Every source I found either was from Mr. McKenna, or references him directly. The only thing I found from reputable sources was that DMT causes people to talk very fast and have trouble talking. That’s quite different from speaking in tongues.
Oh, and the only reason I guessed Pentecostal is that it is the only charismatic denomination that I know of.
February 8th, 2007 at 5:03 pm
Hey Recovered Catholic,
You said “do you really mean to say that for you the jury is still out on whether there is a natural or supernatural reason for what you experienced?”
No the jury has been in, it just continually fascinates me. The discoveries of how God does what He does. Incidently, it isn’t “gibberish”. Diner bell is ringing, will expound later. Mic
February 8th, 2007 at 5:30 pm
Hey Recovered Catholic,
What I meant to say was I am fascinated how God supernaturally uses the natural to accomplish His purposes. Mic
February 8th, 2007 at 8:39 pm
Hey Mic,
I think we are in comfortable agreement then that this has a natural explanation - and that we disagree as to whether this natural phenomenon was set up with divine purpose by a supernatural being.
I can pay that - the existance of the natural does not logically preclude the existance of a supernatural. I used to be quite fond of the “god created evolution” argument myself - it seemed silly to think a divine being would continue to do things by hand when any lowly corporate middle manager knows that you should be creating systems to get tasks done, like evolution for designing critters, or a frontal lobe off-switch for trancendental experiences.
By the same token, I am sure you have no problem acknowledging that the existence of the natural does not *require* the existence of the supernatural, right?
February 8th, 2007 at 8:43 pm
P.S. - would love to hear about what language-like features are retained - what it sounds like and feels like - I would love to know if this sheds some light on how different aspects of language are processed, and perhaps even entertain the possibility that this could point to where they are localised in the brain.
Of course we are still going to disagree as to whether it was you or the spirit that switched them off, but that doesn’t make me less interested :)
P.S. - are there any audio or video recordings of this on line?
February 8th, 2007 at 10:16 pm
gasmonso
Psalm 14:1 says, “A fool says in his heart there is no God.”
From what part of you says there’s no God? Is it from your heart? Or is it only from your head that you say there is no God? How do you know?
I know many individuals who were on their death beds who claimed to be stuanch Atheists. They were faced with the reality of death and little did they know, as their bodies were slowly being emptied of life they had a supernatural experience (some have seen Hell and it wasn’t just a dream) that changed their lives.
You tell me this…When you’re on your death bed what do you think you’ll be thinking about during the last few moments before you pass from this life to the next?
Here’s the truth: Eternity was put in your heart from the day you were conceived in your mothers womb. Therefore, heaven should be every mans home…but, because of our deviant behaviour through the seed of adam we are all born into sin. We messed up! For some reason we don’t want to face the whole deal that we messed (in the past) and continue (present future) to mess things up. Our Spiritual DNA is a sinful one. In order to be forgiven and washed clean of our sins we need to Confess our sins, BELIEVE in our hearts that God raised Jesus from the dead and we are saved (or free from the bond we have with sin).
Here are a few other things to think about!
“However, the existence of God cannot be proven or disproved. The Bible even says that we must accept by faith the fact that God exists, “And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to Him must believe that He exists and that He rewards those who earnestly seek Him†(Hebrews 11:6). If God so desired, He could simply appear and prove to the whole world that He exists. But if He did that, there would be no need for faith. “Then Jesus told him, ‘Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed’†(John 20:29).”
“I Don’t Have Enough Faith to be an Atheist”
Norm Geisler/Frank Turek.
P.S. Creation announces the amazing handy work of God! Oh, by the way…did you know that God doesn’t believe in Atheists?
Pastor Guy
February 8th, 2007 at 10:33 pm
Hey Recovered Catholic,
In reference to your post #127, I am anchored in certain beliefs but I will humbly admit that I don’t have a corner on the truth. (I know Someone who does though:) I consider this virtue.
You said “I think we are in comfortable agreement then that this has a natural explanation and that we disagree as to whether this natural phenomenon was set up with divine purpose by a supernatural being.” Yes, but I believe Christians are the only people this phenomenon is found in. We can obviously “test” anyone claiming this ability by hooking him up to whatever machine they use to do that brain test and checking out his “lobes”. (forgive me I’m an old soldier not a brain surgeon)
I would not agree with you on the existence of the natural without the supernatural. I think Sid agrees with me on this point.
You would have to explain your P.S. question to me more specifically for me to answer. I would imagine there would be some recordings online. If I find one I will post the link. If not maybe I’ll make one. Mic
February 8th, 2007 at 10:37 pm
Pastor Guy, I’d like to believe in God. The very thought of someone looking after me and providing for me after death is alluring. However, I have this annoying habit of using my brain and my inner strength to find solace. I do not fear death so much as the process of dying. Sitting in bed slowly dying of cancer for months would probably bring me closer to a belief in God, just like torture brings a man to confess a crime he didn’t commit.
I understand that either one of us could be right on this whole God thing, but something inside tells me that we’re both wrong my friend.
Is God an intelligent being? Maybe God is the Universe itself. Of course God could also be some old white guy. I don’t know and neither do you. You have faith and admittedly I do not.
But what I do have is a love for life and compassion for my fellow man. If not believing in God makes me a bad person in spite of this, then so be it. I speak with my actions, not with my words.
gasmonso
February 8th, 2007 at 10:46 pm
According to wikipedia, some other religions have, in the past, claimed glossololia but the best I can tell only voodoo is still around now. (and I think most people deny voodoo exists) So there may be a couple of people besides Christians who claim to practice glossololia. Mic
February 8th, 2007 at 10:56 pm
Link of video of tongues in BORAT movie
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OKecdmjftYE
February 8th, 2007 at 11:19 pm
Singing in tongues http://www.secretplaceministries.org/pages/articles/singing_in_the_spirit.html
Can’t find speaking though, sorry, Lights out, Mic
February 9th, 2007 at 9:56 am
@ Sid and recovered catholic,
If you have time, here is a very detailed (and I think you will agree very believable) account of a skeptical woman receiving the gift of tongues and what happened. The blog is a little long, part 2 has the most “meat” to it.
http://adventuresinmercy.wordpress.com/2007/01/29/speaking-in-tongues-a-super-sleuth-reports-part-1/
February 9th, 2007 at 12:43 pm
@Pastor
have you ever seen this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fDp7pkEcJVQ
I think it pretty much covers all the fallacies in your last post, and in a clever manner no less.
By the way, concepts like “spiritual DNA” aren’t exactly piling on the credibility.
February 9th, 2007 at 4:35 pm
This makes me wonder where the world will be in thirty years, when this child and the like will be adults and attempting to gain political power. Absolutely horrifying.
February 9th, 2007 at 8:33 pm
@Mic/134
I think this is pretty much where we diverge. Sid, as neither a christian or athiest, from where you sit, do you see any avenues of discussion other than the he said/she said which this usually devolves to at this point? Damned if I can :-/
Re the P.S. - sorry, wasn’t meant to be a question, and was a bit off-topic - just that, if my (admittedly) preconcieved point of view that “tounges” is just a mechanistic thing happened to be correct, then tounges would be a phenomenon which told us a lot about about the machine that generated it, like what the parts were. How language is assembled out of things like concepts, sound, grammar etc is an ongoing question in neuroscience and one that interests me, so I was just wondering if the religious question might shed some light on the less controversial linguistic one too.
February 9th, 2007 at 8:36 pm
I would guess right about where we are now, and have been for the last x-thousand years.
Looks like little kids of the next generation are going to have to call on the skills learned from all that play with toy swords and guns, just as much as some of our generation - and our parents - and their parents…. :(
February 9th, 2007 at 9:23 pm
“I think this is pretty much where we diverge. Sid, as neither a christian or athiest, from where you sit, do you see any avenues of discussion other than the he said/she said which this usually devolves to at this point?”
First I’d like to mention that I don’t really understand what people mean by ’supernatural’. I suppose that, literally, it means “of a better quality than nature”. But what does ‘nature’ mean in this context? Since nature/supernature discussions are usually metaphysical in essence, ‘nature’ is usually understood to mean “all that exists; the universe”. Thus, ’supernatural’ would mean “of a better quality than all that exists”, which makes no sense. If there is a ’supernatural’ thing, it must too exist and thus be part on nature.
For that reason, I can’t say that I believe in anything supernatural. This includes God. I think that God is part of nature. A part that is metaphysically necessary and from which all other parts of nature derive their ultimate existence, but a natural thing nonetheless.
Now to your question. This is usually were these sorts of discussions break down, in my experience. I really enjoyed our conversation with Mic. I find him to be very affable and reasonable. If all religious people think and act like he demonstrated on this site, I would have no problem with the religious and their beliefs.
We could continue the discussion simply by traversing from topic to topic, which is really what we’ve been doing all along. I still would like to see Mic’s (or any other Christian’s) response to my challenge in the first paragraph of comment #128.
February 9th, 2007 at 11:07 pm
@Sid
I’ll take the bait;)
First I would ask you to reread #125.
I would expand on that by putting you, Sid, in the driver’s seat. If you had the power to create a universe, would you “program” the inhabitants to worship you? Would you be vain enough to make “robotic” inhabitants to come and do all your bidding? I believe it would be pretty boring after a while, and take on a rather sterile atmosphere. You can read many sad stories of the rich and famous who want nothing more than to be loved for who they are, not what they are. The Lord desires people who will worship Him in spirit and in truth, to willingly surrender their wills and their lives to serve Him. To trust in His provision and not the power of their flesh to provide. (so He can really show Himself as God in their lives!) To fall on the Rock that is Christ, break and admit we are weak and can truly do nothing (worth eternal reward)without Him. To be willingly obedient to Him in every way.
How would you do it different?
Lastly I will say briefly that here on earth we expect our human judge to judge righteously and without fault or compromise. (We tend to cry foul very quickly when they don’t!) so why is it different when it comes to God. His word says He desires all to be saved, but He will not compromise His nature with man’s choices. However, He has made another way!! Mic
February 10th, 2007 at 12:30 pm
@Mic
Presume you’re right and there is a god who had the exact same desires and manner of intelligence and creativity (although presumably more) as humans (which in and of itself should tell you that such a being’s very existence makes absolutely no sense, but I digress).
Why would this god, though human-like, need servant if he was omnipotent… and to those xians who think we’re some sort of god’s experiment instead, why would such a god want us to worship him? There is no reason for it.
It makes much more sense if you look at it from this perspective. As an evolutionary defense mechanism, people see human/animal intention where none exist because although these feelings are usually false positives, you only need to be right once to save your life in the wild. When humans start to dream up omnipotent forces in the world, they would also want to take advantage of them somehow. This is where worship comes in.
Just out of curiosity, what is it that you tell yourself when you start to question your beliefs (if at all)? What is the thing that allows you to hold on to your cherished comforting beliefs in the face of the obvious? I don’t mean to sound like an asshole or anything, but I just don’t understand how so many people can do it.
February 10th, 2007 at 1:39 pm
@your father,
You said “Why would this god, though human-like, need servant if he was omnipotent… and to those xians who think we’re some sort of god’s experiment instead, why would such a god want us to worship him? There is no reason for it.”
First I would like to apologize if I worded anything to suggest that God was “human-like”. We “resemble” Him and as such can identify with some, a fraction, of what He is feeling.
You also said “What is the thing that allows you to hold on to your cherished comforting beliefs in the face of the obvious?”
The “thing” is the reality of God in my life. My disbelief “in the face of the obvious” is how I managed to cling to my belief in the world for so long. I would encourage you to look outside the boundaries of this country, where most people think they have no need for God because we are able to supply for our needs. (I don’t think it will always be this easy) In other parts of the world ie: Iraq, Egypt Kazakstan, China, people are abandoning religion and coming to Jesus by the thousands every day. The Church in China has pledged 100,000 missionaries to walk the anchient silk trade routes through the middle of the muslim world to spread the Good news of Christ. Knowing full well that as many as half will die in the effort. I would encourage you to check any preconceived ideas at the door and take an objective perspective at Christianity. A guy named Lee Strobel was an atheist investigative reporter for the Chicago Sun-Times (I think it was that paper)He started an expose’ on Christianity to dig up as much dirt as he could on it. You know what happened? He came to Christ and he wrote a book called “A Case for Christ”. We have this erroneous image of God, that He is waiting to rub us out like an ant when we do wrong. When a more accurate picture is one of a Father who is rooting for us to live the life He has called us to. Hey, the Bible says Jesus sits at the right hand of the Father, always interceding for US! That’s a comforting thought don’t you think? Mic
February 10th, 2007 at 3:02 pm
The reason that the girl sounds desperate is not for herself, it’s because she aches for the people that aren’t following God. She is firm in what she believes and is not praying for you to hear, she’s praying for God to hear and to draw people unto Him. God or her parents are not torturing her. Even though she may not understand about the intricacies of Chrisianity, she fully understands and has experienced the power of God in her life. It is real to her and as she is thinking of all of the people in the world that do not have this power, she is troubled. So therefore she is not being tortured by anyone but she is taking the burden of the unsaved upon herself and praying for God to show Himself to them.
The reason that some of you have not experienced God’s power is because you are not open to it. Why should God prove himself to you? He has already done so many times and yet you credit His workings to coincidence or science. You always cry for “proof” when proof is all around you.
February 10th, 2007 at 4:14 pm
Mic
I’m asking for arguments and you’re giving me anecdotes. I could give you just as many stories about people going from Christianity to atheism.
“The Church in China has pledged 100,000 missionaries to walk the anchient silk trade routes through the middle of the muslim world to spread the Good news of Christ. Knowing full well that as many as half will die in the effort.”
Devotion does not equate to truth. I find that story to be very disturbing…
“I would encourage you to look outside the boundaries of this country, where most people think they have no need for God because we are able to supply for our needs.”
MOST of the people in the world do believe in some sort of god, just as most of the world is uneducated. In the developed world, atheism is on the rise.
The truth is you don’t know why non-believers don’t believe. The reasons could be anywhere from tradition to simply not deeming religion necessary to finding it ridiculous, out of date, and completely out of touch with reality.
Let’s recap, aside from ad populum arguments sprinkled with anecdotes and circular logic, you’re reason for believing is god’s “reality” in your life. Now I can’t help but ask what you mean by that.
February 10th, 2007 at 4:20 pm
“You always cry for “proof†when proof is all around you.”
We also cry hypocrisy, circular and fallacious logic, not to mention ruining the world for the rest of us.
“He has already done so many times and yet you credit His workings to coincidence or science.”
We attribute things to science because we can prove and reproduce them using science. For that particular kind of logical fallacy, I point you to http://www.whydoesgodhateamputees.com/ .
February 10th, 2007 at 6:04 pm
“It is real to her and as she is thinking of all of the people in the world that do not have this power, she is troubled. So therefore she is not being tortured by anyone but she is taking the burden of the unsaved upon herself and praying for God to show Himself to them.”
Needless ache and burden… that counts as torture in my book.
Why is she feeling that way? because she firmly believes in god. Why does she believe in god? someone taught her.
So we can either say “God”(or the idea of god) is torturing her, or that person does or did cause her suffering.
How would you think about a child who cries itself to sleep every night thinking about how Global Warming(or some other “big thing(tm)”) will destroy all of us, and we don’t even know it? I’d say he/she needs to losen one hell of a bit up. Same for this girl, it IS troubling how much of a burden the whole thing is for her. How old is she? 5 to 7 years old? 10 at most?
Oh and you’re welcome to contact the admin to make a Just Ask session for you. Then we can discuss your “proof” of god into detail(and you better pray that god lends you a hand and makes you come up with rational proofs that take more than 5 lines to disprove)
February 10th, 2007 at 6:25 pm
Hey Mic,
If I were in the driver’s seat, as you put it, I probably would bestow freewill (if such a thing were possible). But, I would not make belief in me, my son, and or particular myths a criteria for salvation. I’d also not have any unnecessary suffering (some suffering would be the result of freewill). And I certainly wouldn’t bestow freewill and then punish my creations for using it! Similarly, I wouldn’t instill a sense of reason in my creations and than make abandoning it necessary to avoid eternal and ultimate pain.
In post 125, you made an analogy between the parent-child relationship and the God-human relationship. This is a common analogy put forth when I question how an all-loving, omnipotent, omniscient God is compatible with selective salvation. While a parent is likely all-loving of a child, they lack the latter two qualities. If a parent did know everything and could do anything, I am certain that they would never allow their children to become eternally separated from them. Is that not what the Christian God does by sending nonbelievers to Hell? It’s not the punishment aspect I object to. For that, the analogy is apt. We do punish our children for their own good. What I object to is the permanent and extreme nature of the punishment. The analogy fails because of this.
February 10th, 2007 at 6:57 pm
@your father,
I reread my answer to your question and I’ll admit it was indirect. If you have been following this discussion I have already laid out why I’m a Christian and some of my experiences. The reality of Christ in my life? The answer I am going to give you is true, but it isn’t the nice, neat, all wrapped up in a mathematical bow answer that your are looking for. God cannot be contained by human logic and reason. That is why it takes faith. Many are trying to find Him within this universe when the Creator is outside of creation, looking in. Now before you start barraging me with questions about my answer, I am asking you one first after my answer. I’m being transparent here. I would like you to do the same.
Jesus is everything to me. I love God! He loves me! He is my Lord and as much as I want to say otherwise, I am not always obedient. I want to serve Him anyway He wants me to, but there are times when my humanity gets the better of me. I can physically feel His presence at times and sometimes, I regret to say, I push Him away. He meets me wherever I am, and I can talk to Him about anything, anywhere, anytime, but many times I don’t and I try to settle it on my own. Without Him I am lost and if that sounds weak that is good. I consider weakness and relience on Him to be virtuous. In other words, the reality of God in my life is my relationship with Him. It isn’t about following the rules, if you are in right relationship with Him, His commands are not burdensome, but a pleasure to comply with for the King. The pursuit of my life will be to seek further intimacy with Him.
Now, for my question: Are you emotionally detached from the issue of the existence of God and if so, do you see yourself as determined to disprove/ refute evidence of the existence of God or are you objectively pursuing the truth, not completely dismissing the possibility of His existence since all knowledge has not been discovered yet? Mic
February 10th, 2007 at 7:15 pm
@ Sid
I can see where your disbelief in freewill affects your answer. Post 125 was not an analogy in the true definition. It was never an attempt at representing God point for point but rather a simplified, general snapshot at one of the facets of God.
Your vision of your creation reflects your un-freewill beliefs in that you would force everyone to be good and not fight or hurt each other. Put a leash on everyone so they stay right behind mother duck and we all live happily ever after. Please, wake me when it’s over. The reality is we all want to be our own boss. We want everyone to see it our way, do we not? No one’s gonna tell me what to do!!! God gave us what we want when the serpent said “You surely will not die” and we fell for it. Pun intended. Love you Sid, Mic
February 10th, 2007 at 7:27 pm
“Now, for my question: Are you emotionally detached from the issue of the existence of God…”
I don’t know, are you emotionally detached from the existence of the Zues or the Flying Spaghetti Monster?
“…and if so, do you see yourself as determined to disprove/ refute evidence of the existence of God or are you objectively pursuing the truth, not completely dismissing the possibility of His existence since all knowledge has not been discovered yet? Mic”
Well, I’m just as open as the next guy, but I’m not naive and theres a big difference. If god came down and gave me proof of his existence, I’d be the first to believe. I’m will not, however, believe based on a feeling or the desire to believe, especially when I know that there’s so much evidence against it.
As for what hasn’t been discovered yet, any beliefs you have are based on speculation alone… and poor speculation at that.
February 10th, 2007 at 7:28 pm
Hello again, Mic,
I can’t help but point out that you are dodging the difficult parts of my objection. I do readily admit that my determinism is likely biasing my responses, but I did try to assume freewill. Like I wrote, I’d allow suffering and evil that comes about as a result of freewill, but disallow unnecessary suffering.
My real challenge is that the Christian concept of God is incompatible with selective salvation. Also, please don’t get me wrong. I am not trying to convert you. All I’m asking is for Christians to admit that their religion has some deep-seeded problems and doesn’t have all the answers. As such, it’s morality and world view should not be taught in public schools (at home and in church are great places for that), and should not be part of a secular government’s laws. Also, I’d ask Christians to recognize that non-Christians and atheists can be just as moral, and maybe even more so, as they are.
If I judge your character correctly, Mic, you probably have no problems with these ideas. I think you even wrote that you do not have all the answers in one of your previous posts (I do not either). That is the reason why we can have these fascinating discussions. I enjoy debate. That is the only reason I am challenging you on these difficult and interesting topics. I hope you are getting something out of the debate as well.
February 10th, 2007 at 7:46 pm
@ Sid,
What do you mean by “selective salvation” exactly?
I agree with the absence of religion in school, I’m all for it 100% I am also against teaching “alternative lifestyles” in school and teaching evolutionary theory as a fact. I am also with you on the secular laws thing. Laws against things, while neccesary, do not change ones heart. In the same way legalistic religion does not bring one closer to God. I’m sure there are plenty of “moral” atheists, the question is probably more on the moral standard. I am unafraid to speak about these things and even admit when I don’t know. I cannot help but ask the question:
To a disinterested observor (if you could find one) atheists have more to “lose” if they are judging these topics incorrectly, what is the driving force behind the “unbelievers” conviction to disprove the existence of God? Mic
February 10th, 2007 at 7:58 pm
@ your father,
I believe you when you say “If God came down…” but if you are like all other humans, Your devotion would wane and it wouldn’t be long before you were doing your own thing again. Read Exodus if for nothing else than it is a great story. The Israelites were delivered from Egypt by God through ten really nasty plagues, then He led them with a pillar of fire, parted the Red Sea, slayed the whole Egyptian army, gave them water from a Rock, supplied them bread from heaven daily and by chapter 20 something they are worshipping a golden calf. The Bible is full of situations where man sees God at work and says “No, I will not walk in it”. Adam and Eve had God with them daily and they did there own thing. God has worked mightily in my sons life and he knows it, but he is right now turning away from Him. Yes, all would believe for a little while but when the playoffs are on tv or I need a little more sleep or my wife won’t let me, we will turn back to our own way. Mic
February 10th, 2007 at 8:05 pm
I only have a couple of minutes before I leave, so I’ll just quickly define ’selective salvation’. The typical Christian view of the afterlife is that some people will go to paradise and other to eternal punishment. Placing any restrictions on avoiding eternal punishment makes being saved from it ’selective’.
February 10th, 2007 at 8:07 pm
@your father post 155
I laid my soul out on the web and your answer is “I don’t know” and a quick redirect back on me. Cmon, we all know you can open up a little more than that. Unless you’re really afraid of the Flying Spaghetti Monster. Mic
February 11th, 2007 at 2:04 pm
“I believe you when you say “If God came down…†but if you are like all other humans, Your devotion would wane and it wouldn’t be long before you were doing your own thing again.”
I think you’re missing the point. I mean if he gave us proof of his existence. Not a vague appearance that could be construed as something else, but hard evidence. Surely, an a omnipotent god who wants people to believe in him could handle such a task.
“Read Exodus if for nothing else than it is a great story.”
I think you should read the story of Jason and the Argonauts. I think you’ll find that to be a more entertaining story. Full of god intervention, punishment, and everything you could want in a myth. The best part is, in ancient times, it was regarded as historical fact. Why do you suppose it isn’t now while exodus is by some? We have not discovered evidence to support the extraordinary claims made by the stories of Jesus or Jason. So why believe one and not the other?
February 11th, 2007 at 2:15 pm
“I laid my soul out on the web and your answer is “I don’t know†and a quick redirect back on me. Cmon, we all know you can open up a little more than that. Unless you’re really afraid of the Flying Spaghetti Monster.”
I’m not exactly sure to what you are referring. I did not evade your question about being open, nor did I exclude the possibility that I am open to the glory of jesus, muhammed, god, zues, or the flying spaghetti monster.
As far as the “laying your soul out” business, I think thats just a matter of perspective. Maybe if I stuck myself in a room and thought about each character long enough that I started trembling, then picked which self induced trance felt the best you’d be happy?
February 11th, 2007 at 2:48 pm
@ your father,
I’m sensing some hostility from you dad. In the example I gave you I hardly think parting the Red Sea (I hear they found chariots on the bottom, hmmm) or destroying the entire Egyptian army is a David Copperfield slight of hand trick. My intention was not to give you proof of God but to illustrate man’s propensity to turn back to doing whatever it is he is more interested in, man’s selfishness. To disregard everything and anyone but themselves. If the Flying Spaghetti Monster came to visit you, you would be frightened. But the longer he stayed away, your fear would wane and soon you would forget just how scary it was.
I believe you indirectly answered my question as to your emotional involvement in this subject matter. Maybe you’re not as “open” as you believe yourself to be. Yes, the stakes are high dad, it can be an emotional thing. I am praying for you. Mic
February 11th, 2007 at 5:03 pm
“I’m sensing some hostility from you dad.”
Debating with a bit of fervor isn’t a sin is it!? =p
“In the example I gave you I hardly think parting the Red Sea (I hear they found chariots on the bottom, hmmm) or destroying the entire Egyptian army is a David Copperfield slight of hand trick.”
I’m probably not the best person to address this issue, but I’m fairly sure I’ve seen it come up before here. Any history buffs wanna field this one?
“I believe you indirectly answered my question as to your emotional involvement in this subject matter. Maybe you’re not as “open†as you believe yourself to be. Yes, the stakes are high dad, it can be an emotional thing. I am praying for you. Mic”
Well I’m fairly sure I’ll never be what you consider open unless I go to a few brain scrubbings and devote myself to the big guy in the sky. Perhaps I value the objectivity of a view outside that of preconceived notions of how the world works. If scientists proved to me god created man 10000 years ago, and I verified it, I’d believe. If scientists prove (and they HAVE in oh so many ways) that the universe is billions of years old, you stick to your ancient guns or find a new interpretation of the same beliefs. That’s what I would call open, and that is where you and I differ.
I insist that you don’t pray for me. I’ve heard it a thousand times, and I bet every one of you has felt noble about it. Well, I find it offensive. Besides, if there is a god who knows all and sees all, why would he need or care about your POV? (lets call that one rhetorical so we can stick to the issue at hand)
Hostility aside, I do enjoy hearing these conversations. Let’s not argue about our views of each other or our conceived emotional states as they are completely irrelevant.
February 11th, 2007 at 5:24 pm
But emotions are relevant. Our hearts can lie to us and blind our eyes from the truth. For example, a scientist out to prove his theory may disregard critical evidence of the truth if it doesn’t line up with his theory. When we approach a subject with a bias it shades what we are seeing. Rose-colored glasses anyone?
Mic
February 11th, 2007 at 5:52 pm
Well, science is not really accepted even as a theory if it is only one mans view, science requires multiple people prodding holes to the idea and then if it can withstand the perusal it can be called a theory. So one mans emotion would not carry into science just like that.
If I would start to examine a theory and find reason to disagree with it, people would examine my findings and see if the original theory was flawed or were my findings flawed. That kind of a checking and double checking is a norm in science but…
February 11th, 2007 at 6:59 pm
@mic
What jagannath said. Peer review, and people checking other people’s results pretty much ensures that biases are not a problem when performing experiments. However, when examining peer reviewed and checked data, the only ones I see twisting the FACTS are the religious.
I seek the truth, I have absolutely no incentive not to believe in god(s) other than the pursuit of the truth. I want to believe in god(s) just as much as the next guy, but I can’t lie to myself or distort the truth.
February 13th, 2007 at 10:41 pm
I thick the only reason this seems scary to some is it’s so true what’s happening in the world and we choose to look the other way because it’s less painful and easier to ignore then to step up and do the right thing. Yes we read revelation’s and it’s scary but after I really thought it over and over I am less scared than I have ever been in my life, I look forward to what god teaches us in the Bible coming true but I only prey it could be different. And it could be but we won’t make it happen because we are too scared to confront and face the evil head on. If we could come together and help, prey and push hard God would not let all the bad thing’s he rote happen but he knows as well as us that the chance’s of us turning things around are very, very slim. but I’ll keep praying for all of us not to be scared that just because of thing’s like this video some child is going to blow up an abortion clinic but that all of us not be scared to fallow Jesus’ word and face life and not bury our heads and ignore it. Ultimately I know inside all of us want the same thing.
TO BE IN HEAVEN WITH JESUS
February 14th, 2007 at 5:52 am
You must be new here…
Read a bit around the other stories here and you’ll see that all of us don’t give a damn about being in heaven with Jesus, because heaven exists only in your imagination.
Oh, and you sound very much like the child in the video. Now I’m scared that someone will really blow himself up.
April 13th, 2007 at 10:06 pm
you are so patetic fighting over God, if he exists or not, PLEASE! you wont win anything. but i will like to make a point, suppossed the voice is real or not, is a girl under abuse or a girl praying, what i’m sure is that every IMAGE is REAL, like please, dont tell me they are going to pay a woman to cry with her death child in her arms? what kind of world are we living in? shame on US.
April 24th, 2007 at 1:02 am
So I read around on this thing and got a little taste of all the talk. It was quite the amazing thing. From people speaking out their bitterness towards Christianity and sick sarcasm towards people who kill themselves. I even read and got hints from Christians bitterness towards athiest and what not. It is really insane honestly. All of us trying the same arguments with the same people expecting a change, but I would like to join the insanity for a little while. I watched the video and I am not going to lie, at first I wanted to turn it off. It scared me a little becuase it was very unexpected, but I continued to watch the video and I was really shocked. I had read a few comments before hand and was disturbed by the reactions this video got. It was sarcastic, harsh slurs about how scarey and wierd the video was and how the parents were in fault.
I read way up on the comment chain someone saying we don’t need to prove there is no God, you need to prove there is a God. I thought about that, and actually Christians don’t. If anything, they are doing a favor for telling us about the hope they have in a God who is the Lord of Lords and is our key to eternity starting today.
I don’t know, maybe it is just me, but doesn’t it make more sense that those who do not believe in Jesus as being the Messiah and God as being God should find out for sure if they are right or not, because if they are wrong they have everything to loose, but if a Christian is wrong, then the only thing that could be pointed out as a lost was the close held morals they keep…which isn’t a bad thing at all.
Well I just thought that my opinion on the whole thing might calm the eager hearts down to just stop and think for a second. Not about theories or religions or what one has been taught by ones own self desire and hatred or others, but to just stop and think about the possibilities and the weight of both.
April 24th, 2007 at 1:16 am
“I thought about that, and actually Christians don’t”
Actually they do, if what you say was the case then any insane story someone pulls out of their ass would be taken seriously. The only reason your beliefs are accepted is because you are in the majority for now.
“I don’t know, maybe it is just me, but doesn’t it make more sense that those who do not believe in Jesus as being the Messiah and God as being God should find out for sure if they are right or not, because if they are wrong they have everything to loose, but if a Christian is wrong, then the only thing that could be pointed out as a lost was the close held morals they keep…which isn’t a bad thing at all.”
Holy shit i wish you had condensed that a little better or at least split it into multiple sentences. Thats Pascal’s wager, it’s been argued many times and always fails.
April 24th, 2007 at 6:41 am
Dismissed as a nice retelling of pascal’s wager.
more info: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascals_wager
April 24th, 2007 at 8:13 am
Hello hey, irishthunder, and Agony,
That is a version of Pascal’s wager (see Agony’s link above). Every time I see it being used to support belief in any particular religion, I like to point something out. Aren’t Christians taking the exact same gamble with respect to Islam (and visa versa)? I mean, if the Christians are wrong about Mohamed, then they have everything to lose.
April 24th, 2007 at 9:50 pm
Even you give to teh children the best classes and you teach them.. a children cant act like the girl that prays.. she prays with faith with love with hope.. her voice her yells, thats not abuse, thats not problems, THATS LOVE people.. a children.. is teaching you to LOVE GOD.. why you have to invented a lot of things and say things very stupids.. why dont you.. just believe.. Believe in God..
believe in HIS LOVE.. HE LOVES YOU..
and trust me.. your lifes will change..
God Bless You !!
April 25th, 2007 at 8:19 am
“her voice her yells, thats not abuse, thats not problems, THATS LOVE people”
Yeah, just like when certain men ‘LOVE’ their wives with their fists…
April 25th, 2007 at 5:17 pm
love to god..
i dont come here to tell you to believe in god..
just to say that god is still believing in you..
theres a story about a conference he was attacking God,, when a ppooor person go up.. and start eating a orange.. the conferencist was like.. what happens to him??.. the poor said how is this orange?? sweet or bitter ?? the conferensist respond How can i know that.. and the poor says.. how can you said how is god.. if you have never test him..
April 26th, 2007 at 11:32 am
First off, last I checked, this is “religiousfreaks.com” SO WHY THE HECK ARE ATHEST ON HERE????? Atheist DON”T go looking for religion. That’s like a criminal looking for a cop. So obviously your looking for answers. But the answers arn’t here. This is actually something you should not see. It only gives you something to make fun off and something for you to be scared of and run the other direction. This little girl is EASILY misunderstood. ANd I JUST LOVE (that’s saractic) how you are telling us to not say “God Bless You” because it offends you, but then you turn around and cuss your heads off…..that’s offensive to us too. It goes both ways you know! And I will not speak logic with unbelievers because it’s like talking to a brick wall. God is not logic. If you could explain him and make him logic, we’d have more christians. And even if you could “explain” him and everything he does, we wouldn’t have the brain capasity to understand it. HE MADE EVERYTHING. Right down to microcells and whatever else there is. Things just don’t go boom and everything falls into place like that. If you see a painting, there’s a painter. If you see a building theres, an architech. It has nothing to do with what religion you are. It has to do with accepting the gift that has been given to you. It’s like this- if you are at a extremely expensive restraunt and you begin to leave and pay for your meal. But the waiter/waitress says to you, “No thank you, sir. Someone else has already paid for your meal.” You are not going to turn around and be like “NO! I don’t believe you!” That’s what Christ has done for us. See, as sinners (that includes myself and you because we all sin) we have compiled a long list of sins and there’s no way in the world that we can, through good deads or “being good” or anything like that be set right with God. So, God gave this amazing gift to us. Through sending his son, God set us right. That’s what happened and all you have to do is accept this gift. So here’s the gift. Do you accept?
June 29th, 2007 at 2:19 pm
People, they are praying.
that’s it.
just words.
They are praying because our country is an immoral cesspool of filth and it is heading down the tubes and will soon enough be a second world and obsolete country, look at the national debt for goodness sakes. When we want something, we buy it, whether we have the money or not. We are the one’s that are sick, not these kids praying for us. Get real. Wake up.
they aren’t going to bomb anything, if you think that they are, then your are stupid. Quit comparing them to Islamic suicide bombers. Atheists used to brainwash their kids and still do in North Korea to be killers, and it is becoming more like that here, all these kids are doing is praying, praying, just words, that’s it, I’ve heard and read of many reports where kids started doing this on their own with no one to teach them, simply because the holy spirit came on them or because they got a bible and started reading it and then compared the christians in the book of acts to those around them.
They aren’t doing anything wrong, wake up and stop being jerks.
June 29th, 2007 at 3:22 pm
Okay, I’m bored in my last hour at work this Friday so I’ll respond to our newest troll.
I doubt that most religious people would characterize their prayers as ‘just words’. Also, everyone’s comments are ‘just words’ as well, so why are you so upset by them?
Bullshit. Either you are a fear-monger or have fallen for fear-mongering. What criteria are you using? Show me the evidence.
Speak for yourself.
Can you point to where someone compares these kids to Islamic bombers? I couldn’t find one.
Wow, that’s one hellofa run-on sentence. I’ll assume that was a result of your apparent passion for the topic. Where’s the evidence and what is the relevance of atheists brainwashing children? The claim that it’s happening ‘here’ (the US?) is just more fear-mongering, unless you can support your extraordinary claim with equally extraordinary evidence.
Which reports? Who wrote them? Are they peer-reviewed? What, exactly, is a ‘Holy Spirit’? Why would such a thing possess children?
Flame away, Mr. or Mrs. “quit being stupid”.
June 30th, 2007 at 4:25 pm
Looks like ReligiousFreaks is nicely divided:D we have this thread for the christian preachers and the moahmmed cartoons thread for the moslem preachers…
Too bad none of them stays long enough to have an argument in this one…
July 1st, 2007 at 2:54 am
I think sometimes the audince is immature and don’t know how to argue, so they rather not asnwering them.
How do you want somebody to argue with people attck people personnely sometimes, I think if you have some respect for the people, the might stay enough.
July 13th, 2007 at 2:15 pm
Yous have no idea what you’re saying, but you have the freedom to say it. To you God does not exist, but the day He comes back all will have to give an account of what you have done, or not done. May God have mercy on your souls.
July 13th, 2007 at 2:35 pm
Preachity-preachity-preach.
“Yous have no idea what you’re saying” = “Anyone who doesn’t believe what I do is an idiot”. I know exactly what I’m saying, I don’t share your beliefs, and I am certainly not an idiot.
“To you God does not exist, but the day He comes back all will have to give an account of what you have done, or not done.”
Yeah, yeah. Christians have been saying this for centuries. I’ll believe it when I see it. If, on the far outside chance this does occur, God sees fit to punish me based on what I believe as opposed to how I behave (quite morally, actually), then fuck Him, He wouldn’t deserve worship anyway.
July 13th, 2007 at 2:45 pm
I have to step in here for a second because this is just ignorant. Josh you seem to worship God out of fear and that is truly sad. Worship God or else!
To me Jesus, God, Muhammed, Buddha, and all the rest of them are not nearly as important as their message. They simply preached love and enlightenment… well maybe Muhammed didn’t but you get the picture.
With all the hatred that the Christian church preaches, I feel that they are the ones who will be in for a big surprise. They are the ones who cling to God, yet don’t practice the teachings of Jesus. How can they expect to go to heaven? Believing in God is not enough Josh because actions speak louder than words or beliefs.
Just be a good person and love your fellow man. It’s pretty much that simple in my opinion. To me God is love… not some all knowing old man who can’t wait to judge us and send the sinners to hell.
gasmonso
July 13th, 2007 at 3:17 pm
Oh no! I hear the voice from the other side… Oh, it just Gasmonso.
Welcome back to your website.
July 13th, 2007 at 5:35 pm
“With all the hatred that the Christian church preaches, I feel that they are the ones who will be in for a big surprise.”
http://youtube.com/watch?v=Q_PFLbitE8I
——
If it’s up to God’s mercy whether or not I am worthy of a good or bad afterlife, I like to think I’d rather be judged for who I actually am as a person, rather than by how well I grovel and a bit of luck.
November 16th, 2007 at 5:26 pm
THIS IS AWESOME!…………LORD…SEND YOUR SPIRIT!
You all don’t understand these young people…oh….but i do. TAKE US DEEPER LORD. Jesus is soon to come
November 16th, 2007 at 5:44 pm
Is it just me or is that a deeply disturbing and pornographic comment?
November 18th, 2007 at 12:23 pm
This has gotta be the scariest video i have ever seen, that kid screaming almost made me go and hide under my bed.
January 6th, 2008 at 4:35 pm
very good; maybe a lot of people think they are brainwashed, but isn’t that the way all children are? We teach them our ways of right and wrong; here they have been taught about the love of God and obviously have a bigger grasp onto it than most adults. Children have a more sincere and pure faith; I wish there were more praying like that around my church. There is truth in their prayer message and all need to heed to the call of repentance back to God.
January 23rd, 2008 at 4:39 pm
I can only, only HOPE to god (pun not inteded) that this is fake… sadly, it’s most likely not.
NO child should be put through this.
March 12th, 2008 at 8:47 pm
God has loved the world and so the children specialy
so deep that when He touches their lifes the words that come out of their mouth are mouved by him.. himself..
God is Real.. and so is His Power.. and the power that the prayer influence in everybodys life..
prayer changes things.. and make us stronger..
God uses the children in a huge way beggining with prayer..
is not about what it was.. sometimes the only way that God make our minds understand is when we are in need..
in need of freedom..joy…running out of pain..
there’s when we look at him..
and He can be free to love us and hug us..
it’s no about wut it was..
is about what it is goin to be..
if we keep praying..and believing his power.
March 12th, 2008 at 10:26 pm
@ -Ll-uv-
Sorry, I think you’re in the wrong place. You see, this isn’t church, where empty blabbering and repeating what other people say earns you applause and caring.
Here we prefer actualy discussion, that’s where you try to prove you’re right by showing the facts and reasoning from them. It might be a totally new experience for you, but it also requires thinking for yourself and rational reasoning. You should give a try sometime. You might not like the answers you get, but they’re usefull and true.
April 5th, 2008 at 9:35 am
The bible teaches that the things of the Spirit can not be understood with your brain. So why condemning anything you seem to know nothing about. We have enough opinions in this world that comes from `clever` people. If you are not born again you will not understand any way.Children are taught a lot of garbage in school today , but that seems to be ok
April 5th, 2008 at 3:27 pm
“The bible teaches that the things of the Spirit can not be understood with your brain.”
I’d love to find out what were supposed to use to understand it, considering the brain is the only organ capable of understanding
“We have enough opinions in this world that comes from `clever` people.”
So basically because our opinion doesn’t match with yours we shouldn’t have it? Id say because we have enough things in this world to cause murder and violence we should just get rid of religion, then again thats opinion from a “clever” person(which im guessing really means anyone who thinks rationally and logically).
“If you are not born again you will not understand any way.Children are taught a lot of garbage in school today , but that seems to be ok”
They are also taught a hell of a lot of garbage at home and in church.
April 16th, 2008 at 1:23 am
wow those kids are BRAINWASHED
@_@
July 3rd, 2008 at 12:02 am
WOW! What an awesome video, While this current generation sleeps the next generation are seeking Jesus in prayer. Thank God for a generation that is sick and tired of the selfish self righteous attitude that has infiltrated and hardened our hearts toward the God of creation. You can label these children brainwashed all you like. But at least they’ve got the guts to stand up and passionately declare that enough is enough. We need God!!!
July 13th, 2008 at 2:08 am
What a piece of Shit. If this girl understood something about global economics she would know that shoes, nail polish, and TVs stimulate the economy. Jesus is just pretend. And remember, God’s love trickles down.
And further off topic note, I heard about Christians praying for cheaper gas prices at the pump? Ain’t that some nutty shit? How do their prayers go, something like this…
“Thank you lord, for my extended cab diesel F-350 that I use to bring glory to you god. But lord, there must be something you can do to help me pay for fuel I need, so that I can better serve you lord, thanks be to god, amen.”
November 4th, 2008 at 5:20 am
Don’t you all get it?…These children are not brainwashed…They have been washed in the blood of the lamb…the Truth is…Jesus is coming back…get your house in order before it is too late…these are the end days and my heart crys out to all those who are not yet ready…The Question is…Have you tried Jesus for yourself?…not just for the materialistic things that He has provided…but those trials and tribulations that seemed as though they would never come to an end…you must realize that everything you have, you did not get on your own (even if you did not get it honestly), every breath that you take, the activity of your limbs, who do you think is doing it(it sure is not you)…Be thankful for the little things in life…Not everyone was able to wake up this morning…NOW maybe you should go back and listen to this clip again and focus on the words that are coming out of their mouths…The question was asked before…Have you tried Jesus for yourself? Acts 2:38
November 4th, 2008 at 8:14 am
For one, learn how to write. For a second, every generation since your the time of your dear and fluffy “savior” had believed they are living in the end of days. For a third, I tried your silly little religion for the first 15-ish years of my live and it’s a bunch of crap. So do the world a favor and keep your mindless ramblings to yourself. If you want to make an argument, do it intelligibly.
November 4th, 2008 at 1:23 pm
Does anyone know the origin of this Video?
November 10th, 2008 at 11:04 pm
hi. to be sincere,
those who are freaked out by this video,
i understand.
those who aren’t
i understand.
i’ve been on both sides.
i’m a christian,
i’m not ashamed of my faith.
it’s what saved my life,
please don’t misunderstand
it’s not my crutch.
it’s a relationship i found.
i can’t explain this remarkable video
or prove to you God exists
i can’t reason how other religion’s seem real to the follower.
but i can tell you the change that happened in my life came through a work of God, not man.
it can’t be taught.
this isn’t about preaching.
at all.
you can tear me apart,
but please don’t.
just hear these words: i love you.
maybe you haven’t heard them enough.
i know Christians sure don’t say them enough.
i truly know why people are so turned off to religion,
i just want to ask for a second please don’t label me.
i’m sorry, okay?
really.
on behalf of every “believer” (of God) I’m sorry. christians have not represented Christ.
We have failed.
That’s what humans do, we fail. God’s not like that.
thank you for those who have given me a better perspective on my faith, you’re criticism shows that Christianity as a whole is not as it should be.
If you have felt judged by a Christian,
I’m sorry.
again, God’s not like that.
I’m open to questions. I promise to respect you.
give my words a chance.
not as an attempt for conversion :)
i just wanted to apologize.
December 14th, 2009 at 10:41 am
For abs, it will be good if you train them by alternating between upper and lower abs every day. Also, I have included compound movements for the biceps which will work the fore-arms too. So don?t worry about any parts in my workout?
December 27th, 2009 at 12:34 am
LOL
i thought this was a pisstake video designed to freak people out… until the ‘credits’ at the end.
wow
February 1st, 2010 at 7:05 am
If the voices of those children in the background are real ….I weep for their future and whoever comes into contact with them……how can anyone exploit and poison the minds of people so young for their own misguided beliefs…it sounded like a scene from a horror movie
February 4th, 2010 at 4:39 pm
I just spent the last hour (or more?) reading this comment thread and so feel the urge to contribute.
I grew up as an evangelical baptist and truly believed in all the religious dogma presented in this thread (ie jesus loves you, faith is above reason, god has a plan that may be unfathomable). I accepted jesus into my heart at a youngish age, got baptised around 11 and in my teens was active in the church youth groups and I even taught sunday school up until I was 19.
When I was 17 I had a number of “encounters” with the “holy spirit” while worshiping with a charismatic youth group I became involved with - associated with the “vineyard” church movement. These were somewhat in the vein that “Mic” describes above, although I didn’t speak in tongues.
I now (in my early 30’s) would call myself perhaps a “Deist” as Sid described above, but in no way shape or form do I still believe in Christianity.
Why?
1) There are just too many contradictions in the Bible and yes there are quite a few, and yes I’ve read it all multiple times and know all the “apologetics” that “explain” these contradictions
2) Although I allow for the fallabilty of “sinful” humans and the sincere desire to live with christ within, the overwhelming evidence suggests that most christians (including myself at the time) are COMPLETE HYPOCRITES. The percentage that truly live like jesus is pretty damned small. Not a good track record for the whole religion.
3)I sincerely and wholly opened my heart up and welcomed jesus into my heart, to lead my life the way he wanted yadda yadda and you know what happened? Not much. Aside from feeling guilty for violating the moral code imposed on me I generally felt like most everyone at that age, lost and jaded. God never answered any prayer that wasn’t to “change my heart” to accept whatever the circumstances already were. Mostly I felt incredibly incomprehensibly awful for my impure thoughts and actions (primarily masturbation).
4)Although I felt “loved” by the community of my church, it seemed to be somewhat obligatory. I totally and completely understand why some people convert to christianity, or stay within it - you have a built in community of people who HAVE to love you. They will go out of their way to welcome you and will gladly fill your calendar with things to do and people to be around. Who love you. Because they have to. Not that this is a bad thing necessarily, but it’s not for me. I have since found my own community (of secular artists and musicians) who provide me with the same feelings of love and community without the guilt! Because…
5)Guilt is an overwhelming motivator when you think of things in terms of “sinning” and being righteous or good or holy or whatever. It’s a sin to have “impure” thoughts. Oh sure, that’s why I went and accepted jesus into my heart, because that means I get into heaven even if those thoughts occur, but the fact of the matter is you have impure thoughts and then you have to pray about it, ask for forgiveness and then actively try and avoid the situation in the future. That gets difficult when the situation is your body going through puberty. If having the holy spirit in me didn’t get rid of those thoughts then really god is a bit sadistic!
6)The “church” has hardly set a good example throughout the ages.
7)Living for jesus is kind of lame. You are storing up all these “treasures” in heaven but you don’t get to do anything you “want” here on earth, it’s a lot of delayed gratification that will never be fulfilled. I prefer to live the life I am guaranteed instead of waiting around to die. Or be raptured in the last days (a whole other ball of wax!)
This video is frightening because these children are “brainwashed” and have no control over how they see the world. Wait until they are around 22 and go back and see how they are doing. My guess is 80% will have left the church.
I think it’s easier to convert to christianity as an adult because people have screwed up lives and the church offers them a loving community who will support and help them. When you are born into it you don’t really get the chance to convert. Once you realize that your church denomination thinks differently than another denomination of the same religion - sometimes drastically and on pretty major points - if you are at all a “thinker” you will start to see the whole thing unravel like a poorly knitted sweater.
If the god of the bible truly existed,(ie ominpotent and omniscient and “loving”) the world would look completely different in every possible way.
And I have intentionally left certain words (like god etc) uncapitalised - it really grinds my gears when people talking about god or jesus capitalize words like “Him”.
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March 30th, 2010 at 8:34 pm
go Ernesto go.
Ernesto, you go.
Go Ernesto. You no strand.
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It’s 2010. Fuck your stupid jesus stories.
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