I haven’t heard anything this emotionally disturbing in a long time. There is simply no way a child could possibly understand what they’re talking about on a subject so intricate and difficult as religion. This reminds me of those interviews with Muslim children you see on the news when they talk about how great Allah is, yet they don’t have a clue as to what they’re talking about. This is some whack stuff in my opinion which is why I share it with you guys :)
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November 4th, 2008 at 5:20 am
Don’t you all get it?…These children are not brainwashed…They have been washed in the blood of the lamb…the Truth is…Jesus is coming back…get your house in order before it is too late…these are the end days and my heart crys out to all those who are not yet ready…The Question is…Have you tried Jesus for yourself?…not just for the materialistic things that He has provided…but those trials and tribulations that seemed as though they would never come to an end…you must realize that everything you have, you did not get on your own (even if you did not get it honestly), every breath that you take, the activity of your limbs, who do you think is doing it(it sure is not you)…Be thankful for the little things in life…Not everyone was able to wake up this morning…NOW maybe you should go back and listen to this clip again and focus on the words that are coming out of their mouths…The question was asked before…Have you tried Jesus for yourself? Acts 2:38
July 13th, 2008 at 2:08 am
What a piece of Shit. If this girl understood something about global economics she would know that shoes, nail polish, and TVs stimulate the economy. Jesus is just pretend. And remember, God’s love trickles down.
And further off topic note, I heard about Christians praying for cheaper gas prices at the pump? Ain’t that some nutty shit? How do their prayers go, something like this…
“Thank you lord, for my extended cab diesel F-350 that I use to bring glory to you god. But lord, there must be something you can do to help me pay for fuel I need, so that I can better serve you lord, thanks be to god, amen.”
July 3rd, 2008 at 12:02 am
WOW! What an awesome video, While this current generation sleeps the next generation are seeking Jesus in prayer. Thank God for a generation that is sick and tired of the selfish self righteous attitude that has infiltrated and hardened our hearts toward the God of creation. You can label these children brainwashed all you like. But at least they’ve got the guts to stand up and passionately declare that enough is enough. We need God!!!
April 16th, 2008 at 1:23 am
wow those kids are BRAINWASHED
@_@
April 5th, 2008 at 3:27 pm
“The bible teaches that the things of the Spirit can not be understood with your brain.”
I’d love to find out what were supposed to use to understand it, considering the brain is the only organ capable of understanding
“We have enough opinions in this world that comes from `clever` people.”
So basically because our opinion doesn’t match with yours we shouldn’t have it? Id say because we have enough things in this world to cause murder and violence we should just get rid of religion, then again thats opinion from a “clever” person(which im guessing really means anyone who thinks rationally and logically).
“If you are not born again you will not understand any way.Children are taught a lot of garbage in school today , but that seems to be ok”
They are also taught a hell of a lot of garbage at home and in church.
April 5th, 2008 at 9:35 am
The bible teaches that the things of the Spirit can not be understood with your brain. So why condemning anything you seem to know nothing about. We have enough opinions in this world that comes from `clever` people. If you are not born again you will not understand any way.Children are taught a lot of garbage in school today , but that seems to be ok
March 12th, 2008 at 10:26 pm
@ -Ll-uv-
Sorry, I think you’re in the wrong place. You see, this isn’t church, where empty blabbering and repeating what other people say earns you applause and caring.
Here we prefer actualy discussion, that’s where you try to prove you’re right by showing the facts and reasoning from them. It might be a totally new experience for you, but it also requires thinking for yourself and rational reasoning. You should give a try sometime. You might not like the answers you get, but they’re usefull and true.
March 12th, 2008 at 8:47 pm
God has loved the world and so the children specialy
so deep that when He touches their lifes the words that come out of their mouth are mouved by him.. himself..
God is Real.. and so is His Power.. and the power that the prayer influence in everybodys life..
prayer changes things.. and make us stronger..
God uses the children in a huge way beggining with prayer..
is not about what it was.. sometimes the only way that God make our minds understand is when we are in need..
in need of freedom..joy…running out of pain..
there’s when we look at him..
and He can be free to love us and hug us..
it’s no about wut it was..
is about what it is goin to be..
if we keep praying..and believing his power.
January 23rd, 2008 at 4:39 pm
I can only, only HOPE to god (pun not inteded) that this is fake… sadly, it’s most likely not.
NO child should be put through this.
January 6th, 2008 at 4:35 pm
very good; maybe a lot of people think they are brainwashed, but isn’t that the way all children are? We teach them our ways of right and wrong; here they have been taught about the love of God and obviously have a bigger grasp onto it than most adults. Children have a more sincere and pure faith; I wish there were more praying like that around my church. There is truth in their prayer message and all need to heed to the call of repentance back to God.
November 18th, 2007 at 12:23 pm
This has gotta be the scariest video i have ever seen, that kid screaming almost made me go and hide under my bed.
November 16th, 2007 at 5:44 pm
Is it just me or is that a deeply disturbing and pornographic comment?
November 16th, 2007 at 5:26 pm
THIS IS AWESOME!…………LORD…SEND YOUR SPIRIT!
You all don’t understand these young people…oh….but i do. TAKE US DEEPER LORD. Jesus is soon to come
July 13th, 2007 at 5:35 pm
“With all the hatred that the Christian church preaches, I feel that they are the ones who will be in for a big surprise.”
http://youtube.com/watch?v=Q_PFLbitE8I
——
If it’s up to God’s mercy whether or not I am worthy of a good or bad afterlife, I like to think I’d rather be judged for who I actually am as a person, rather than by how well I grovel and a bit of luck.
July 13th, 2007 at 3:17 pm
Oh no! I hear the voice from the other side… Oh, it just Gasmonso.
Welcome back to your website.
July 13th, 2007 at 2:45 pm
I have to step in here for a second because this is just ignorant. Josh you seem to worship God out of fear and that is truly sad. Worship God or else!
To me Jesus, God, Muhammed, Buddha, and all the rest of them are not nearly as important as their message. They simply preached love and enlightenment… well maybe Muhammed didn’t but you get the picture.
With all the hatred that the Christian church preaches, I feel that they are the ones who will be in for a big surprise. They are the ones who cling to God, yet don’t practice the teachings of Jesus. How can they expect to go to heaven? Believing in God is not enough Josh because actions speak louder than words or beliefs.
Just be a good person and love your fellow man. It’s pretty much that simple in my opinion. To me God is love… not some all knowing old man who can’t wait to judge us and send the sinners to hell.
gasmonso
July 13th, 2007 at 2:35 pm
Preachity-preachity-preach.
“Yous have no idea what you’re saying” = “Anyone who doesn’t believe what I do is an idiot”. I know exactly what I’m saying, I don’t share your beliefs, and I am certainly not an idiot.
“To you God does not exist, but the day He comes back all will have to give an account of what you have done, or not done.”
Yeah, yeah. Christians have been saying this for centuries. I’ll believe it when I see it. If, on the far outside chance this does occur, God sees fit to punish me based on what I believe as opposed to how I behave (quite morally, actually), then fuck Him, He wouldn’t deserve worship anyway.
July 13th, 2007 at 2:15 pm
Yous have no idea what you’re saying, but you have the freedom to say it. To you God does not exist, but the day He comes back all will have to give an account of what you have done, or not done. May God have mercy on your souls.
July 1st, 2007 at 2:54 am
I think sometimes the audince is immature and don’t know how to argue, so they rather not asnwering them.
How do you want somebody to argue with people attck people personnely sometimes, I think if you have some respect for the people, the might stay enough.
June 30th, 2007 at 4:25 pm
Looks like ReligiousFreaks is nicely divided:D we have this thread for the christian preachers and the moahmmed cartoons thread for the moslem preachers…
Too bad none of them stays long enough to have an argument in this one…
June 29th, 2007 at 3:22 pm
Okay, I’m bored in my last hour at work this Friday so I’ll respond to our newest troll.
I doubt that most religious people would characterize their prayers as ‘just words’. Also, everyone’s comments are ‘just words’ as well, so why are you so upset by them?
Bullshit. Either you are a fear-monger or have fallen for fear-mongering. What criteria are you using? Show me the evidence.
Speak for yourself.
Can you point to where someone compares these kids to Islamic bombers? I couldn’t find one.
Wow, that’s one hellofa run-on sentence. I’ll assume that was a result of your apparent passion for the topic. Where’s the evidence and what is the relevance of atheists brainwashing children? The claim that it’s happening ‘here’ (the US?) is just more fear-mongering, unless you can support your extraordinary claim with equally extraordinary evidence.
Which reports? Who wrote them? Are they peer-reviewed? What, exactly, is a ‘Holy Spirit’? Why would such a thing possess children?
Flame away, Mr. or Mrs. “quit being stupid”.
June 29th, 2007 at 2:19 pm
People, they are praying.
that’s it.
just words.
They are praying because our country is an immoral cesspool of filth and it is heading down the tubes and will soon enough be a second world and obsolete country, look at the national debt for goodness sakes. When we want something, we buy it, whether we have the money or not. We are the one’s that are sick, not these kids praying for us. Get real. Wake up.
they aren’t going to bomb anything, if you think that they are, then your are stupid. Quit comparing them to Islamic suicide bombers. Atheists used to brainwash their kids and still do in North Korea to be killers, and it is becoming more like that here, all these kids are doing is praying, praying, just words, that’s it, I’ve heard and read of many reports where kids started doing this on their own with no one to teach them, simply because the holy spirit came on them or because they got a bible and started reading it and then compared the christians in the book of acts to those around them.
They aren’t doing anything wrong, wake up and stop being jerks.
April 26th, 2007 at 11:32 am
First off, last I checked, this is “religiousfreaks.com” SO WHY THE HECK ARE ATHEST ON HERE????? Atheist DON”T go looking for religion. That’s like a criminal looking for a cop. So obviously your looking for answers. But the answers arn’t here. This is actually something you should not see. It only gives you something to make fun off and something for you to be scared of and run the other direction. This little girl is EASILY misunderstood. ANd I JUST LOVE (that’s saractic) how you are telling us to not say “God Bless You” because it offends you, but then you turn around and cuss your heads off…..that’s offensive to us too. It goes both ways you know! And I will not speak logic with unbelievers because it’s like talking to a brick wall. God is not logic. If you could explain him and make him logic, we’d have more christians. And even if you could “explain” him and everything he does, we wouldn’t have the brain capasity to understand it. HE MADE EVERYTHING. Right down to microcells and whatever else there is. Things just don’t go boom and everything falls into place like that. If you see a painting, there’s a painter. If you see a building theres, an architech. It has nothing to do with what religion you are. It has to do with accepting the gift that has been given to you. It’s like this- if you are at a extremely expensive restraunt and you begin to leave and pay for your meal. But the waiter/waitress says to you, “No thank you, sir. Someone else has already paid for your meal.” You are not going to turn around and be like “NO! I don’t believe you!” That’s what Christ has done for us. See, as sinners (that includes myself and you because we all sin) we have compiled a long list of sins and there’s no way in the world that we can, through good deads or “being good” or anything like that be set right with God. So, God gave this amazing gift to us. Through sending his son, God set us right. That’s what happened and all you have to do is accept this gift. So here’s the gift. Do you accept?
April 25th, 2007 at 5:17 pm
love to god..
i dont come here to tell you to believe in god..
just to say that god is still believing in you..
theres a story about a conference he was attacking God,, when a ppooor person go up.. and start eating a orange.. the conferencist was like.. what happens to him??.. the poor said how is this orange?? sweet or bitter ?? the conferensist respond How can i know that.. and the poor says.. how can you said how is god.. if you have never test him..
April 25th, 2007 at 8:19 am
“her voice her yells, thats not abuse, thats not problems, THATS LOVE people”
Yeah, just like when certain men ‘LOVE’ their wives with their fists…
April 24th, 2007 at 9:50 pm
Even you give to teh children the best classes and you teach them.. a children cant act like the girl that prays.. she prays with faith with love with hope.. her voice her yells, thats not abuse, thats not problems, THATS LOVE people.. a children.. is teaching you to LOVE GOD.. why you have to invented a lot of things and say things very stupids.. why dont you.. just believe.. Believe in God..
believe in HIS LOVE.. HE LOVES YOU..
and trust me.. your lifes will change..
God Bless You !!
April 24th, 2007 at 8:13 am
Hello hey, irishthunder, and Agony,
That is a version of Pascal’s wager (see Agony’s link above). Every time I see it being used to support belief in any particular religion, I like to point something out. Aren’t Christians taking the exact same gamble with respect to Islam (and visa versa)? I mean, if the Christians are wrong about Mohamed, then they have everything to lose.
April 24th, 2007 at 6:41 am
Dismissed as a nice retelling of pascal’s wager.
more info: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascals_wager
April 24th, 2007 at 1:16 am
“I thought about that, and actually Christians don’t”
Actually they do, if what you say was the case then any insane story someone pulls out of their ass would be taken seriously. The only reason your beliefs are accepted is because you are in the majority for now.
“I don’t know, maybe it is just me, but doesn’t it make more sense that those who do not believe in Jesus as being the Messiah and God as being God should find out for sure if they are right or not, because if they are wrong they have everything to loose, but if a Christian is wrong, then the only thing that could be pointed out as a lost was the close held morals they keep…which isn’t a bad thing at all.”
Holy shit i wish you had condensed that a little better or at least split it into multiple sentences. Thats Pascal’s wager, it’s been argued many times and always fails.
April 24th, 2007 at 1:02 am
So I read around on this thing and got a little taste of all the talk. It was quite the amazing thing. From people speaking out their bitterness towards Christianity and sick sarcasm towards people who kill themselves. I even read and got hints from Christians bitterness towards athiest and what not. It is really insane honestly. All of us trying the same arguments with the same people expecting a change, but I would like to join the insanity for a little while. I watched the video and I am not going to lie, at first I wanted to turn it off. It scared me a little becuase it was very unexpected, but I continued to watch the video and I was really shocked. I had read a few comments before hand and was disturbed by the reactions this video got. It was sarcastic, harsh slurs about how scarey and wierd the video was and how the parents were in fault.
I read way up on the comment chain someone saying we don’t need to prove there is no God, you need to prove there is a God. I thought about that, and actually Christians don’t. If anything, they are doing a favor for telling us about the hope they have in a God who is the Lord of Lords and is our key to eternity starting today.
I don’t know, maybe it is just me, but doesn’t it make more sense that those who do not believe in Jesus as being the Messiah and God as being God should find out for sure if they are right or not, because if they are wrong they have everything to loose, but if a Christian is wrong, then the only thing that could be pointed out as a lost was the close held morals they keep…which isn’t a bad thing at all.
Well I just thought that my opinion on the whole thing might calm the eager hearts down to just stop and think for a second. Not about theories or religions or what one has been taught by ones own self desire and hatred or others, but to just stop and think about the possibilities and the weight of both.
April 13th, 2007 at 10:06 pm
you are so patetic fighting over God, if he exists or not, PLEASE! you wont win anything. but i will like to make a point, suppossed the voice is real or not, is a girl under abuse or a girl praying, what i’m sure is that every IMAGE is REAL, like please, dont tell me they are going to pay a woman to cry with her death child in her arms? what kind of world are we living in? shame on US.
February 14th, 2007 at 5:52 am
You must be new here…
Read a bit around the other stories here and you’ll see that all of us don’t give a damn about being in heaven with Jesus, because heaven exists only in your imagination.
Oh, and you sound very much like the child in the video. Now I’m scared that someone will really blow himself up.
February 13th, 2007 at 10:41 pm
I thick the only reason this seems scary to some is it’s so true what’s happening in the world and we choose to look the other way because it’s less painful and easier to ignore then to step up and do the right thing. Yes we read revelation’s and it’s scary but after I really thought it over and over I am less scared than I have ever been in my life, I look forward to what god teaches us in the Bible coming true but I only prey it could be different. And it could be but we won’t make it happen because we are too scared to confront and face the evil head on. If we could come together and help, prey and push hard God would not let all the bad thing’s he rote happen but he knows as well as us that the chance’s of us turning things around are very, very slim. but I’ll keep praying for all of us not to be scared that just because of thing’s like this video some child is going to blow up an abortion clinic but that all of us not be scared to fallow Jesus’ word and face life and not bury our heads and ignore it. Ultimately I know inside all of us want the same thing.
TO BE IN HEAVEN WITH JESUS
February 11th, 2007 at 6:59 pm
@mic
What jagannath said. Peer review, and people checking other people’s results pretty much ensures that biases are not a problem when performing experiments. However, when examining peer reviewed and checked data, the only ones I see twisting the FACTS are the religious.
I seek the truth, I have absolutely no incentive not to believe in god(s) other than the pursuit of the truth. I want to believe in god(s) just as much as the next guy, but I can’t lie to myself or distort the truth.
February 11th, 2007 at 5:52 pm
Well, science is not really accepted even as a theory if it is only one mans view, science requires multiple people prodding holes to the idea and then if it can withstand the perusal it can be called a theory. So one mans emotion would not carry into science just like that.
If I would start to examine a theory and find reason to disagree with it, people would examine my findings and see if the original theory was flawed or were my findings flawed. That kind of a checking and double checking is a norm in science but…
February 11th, 2007 at 5:24 pm
But emotions are relevant. Our hearts can lie to us and blind our eyes from the truth. For example, a scientist out to prove his theory may disregard critical evidence of the truth if it doesn’t line up with his theory. When we approach a subject with a bias it shades what we are seeing. Rose-colored glasses anyone?
Mic
February 11th, 2007 at 5:03 pm
“I’m sensing some hostility from you dad.”
Debating with a bit of fervor isn’t a sin is it!? =p
“In the example I gave you I hardly think parting the Red Sea (I hear they found chariots on the bottom, hmmm) or destroying the entire Egyptian army is a David Copperfield slight of hand trick.”
I’m probably not the best person to address this issue, but I’m fairly sure I’ve seen it come up before here. Any history buffs wanna field this one?
“I believe you indirectly answered my question as to your emotional involvement in this subject matter. Maybe you’re not as “open†as you believe yourself to be. Yes, the stakes are high dad, it can be an emotional thing. I am praying for you. Mic”
Well I’m fairly sure I’ll never be what you consider open unless I go to a few brain scrubbings and devote myself to the big guy in the sky. Perhaps I value the objectivity of a view outside that of preconceived notions of how the world works. If scientists proved to me god created man 10000 years ago, and I verified it, I’d believe. If scientists prove (and they HAVE in oh so many ways) that the universe is billions of years old, you stick to your ancient guns or find a new interpretation of the same beliefs. That’s what I would call open, and that is where you and I differ.
I insist that you don’t pray for me. I’ve heard it a thousand times, and I bet every one of you has felt noble about it. Well, I find it offensive. Besides, if there is a god who knows all and sees all, why would he need or care about your POV? (lets call that one rhetorical so we can stick to the issue at hand)
Hostility aside, I do enjoy hearing these conversations. Let’s not argue about our views of each other or our conceived emotional states as they are completely irrelevant.
February 11th, 2007 at 2:48 pm
@ your father,
I’m sensing some hostility from you dad. In the example I gave you I hardly think parting the Red Sea (I hear they found chariots on the bottom, hmmm) or destroying the entire Egyptian army is a David Copperfield slight of hand trick. My intention was not to give you proof of God but to illustrate man’s propensity to turn back to doing whatever it is he is more interested in, man’s selfishness. To disregard everything and anyone but themselves. If the Flying Spaghetti Monster came to visit you, you would be frightened. But the longer he stayed away, your fear would wane and soon you would forget just how scary it was.
I believe you indirectly answered my question as to your emotional involvement in this subject matter. Maybe you’re not as “open” as you believe yourself to be. Yes, the stakes are high dad, it can be an emotional thing. I am praying for you. Mic
February 11th, 2007 at 2:15 pm
“I laid my soul out on the web and your answer is “I don’t know†and a quick redirect back on me. Cmon, we all know you can open up a little more than that. Unless you’re really afraid of the Flying Spaghetti Monster.”
I’m not exactly sure to what you are referring. I did not evade your question about being open, nor did I exclude the possibility that I am open to the glory of jesus, muhammed, god, zues, or the flying spaghetti monster.
As far as the “laying your soul out” business, I think thats just a matter of perspective. Maybe if I stuck myself in a room and thought about each character long enough that I started trembling, then picked which self induced trance felt the best you’d be happy?
February 11th, 2007 at 2:04 pm
“I believe you when you say “If God came down…†but if you are like all other humans, Your devotion would wane and it wouldn’t be long before you were doing your own thing again.”
I think you’re missing the point. I mean if he gave us proof of his existence. Not a vague appearance that could be construed as something else, but hard evidence. Surely, an a omnipotent god who wants people to believe in him could handle such a task.
“Read Exodus if for nothing else than it is a great story.”
I think you should read the story of Jason and the Argonauts. I think you’ll find that to be a more entertaining story. Full of god intervention, punishment, and everything you could want in a myth. The best part is, in ancient times, it was regarded as historical fact. Why do you suppose it isn’t now while exodus is by some? We have not discovered evidence to support the extraordinary claims made by the stories of Jesus or Jason. So why believe one and not the other?
February 10th, 2007 at 8:07 pm
@your father post 155
I laid my soul out on the web and your answer is “I don’t know” and a quick redirect back on me. Cmon, we all know you can open up a little more than that. Unless you’re really afraid of the Flying Spaghetti Monster. Mic
February 10th, 2007 at 8:05 pm
I only have a couple of minutes before I leave, so I’ll just quickly define ’selective salvation’. The typical Christian view of the afterlife is that some people will go to paradise and other to eternal punishment. Placing any restrictions on avoiding eternal punishment makes being saved from it ’selective’.
February 10th, 2007 at 7:58 pm
@ your father,
I believe you when you say “If God came down…” but if you are like all other humans, Your devotion would wane and it wouldn’t be long before you were doing your own thing again. Read Exodus if for nothing else than it is a great story. The Israelites were delivered from Egypt by God through ten really nasty plagues, then He led them with a pillar of fire, parted the Red Sea, slayed the whole Egyptian army, gave them water from a Rock, supplied them bread from heaven daily and by chapter 20 something they are worshipping a golden calf. The Bible is full of situations where man sees God at work and says “No, I will not walk in it”. Adam and Eve had God with them daily and they did there own thing. God has worked mightily in my sons life and he knows it, but he is right now turning away from Him. Yes, all would believe for a little while but when the playoffs are on tv or I need a little more sleep or my wife won’t let me, we will turn back to our own way. Mic
February 10th, 2007 at 7:46 pm
@ Sid,
What do you mean by “selective salvation” exactly?
I agree with the absence of religion in school, I’m all for it 100% I am also against teaching “alternative lifestyles” in school and teaching evolutionary theory as a fact. I am also with you on the secular laws thing. Laws against things, while neccesary, do not change ones heart. In the same way legalistic religion does not bring one closer to God. I’m sure there are plenty of “moral” atheists, the question is probably more on the moral standard. I am unafraid to speak about these things and even admit when I don’t know. I cannot help but ask the question:
To a disinterested observor (if you could find one) atheists have more to “lose” if they are judging these topics incorrectly, what is the driving force behind the “unbelievers” conviction to disprove the existence of God? Mic
February 10th, 2007 at 7:28 pm
Hello again, Mic,
I can’t help but point out that you are dodging the difficult parts of my objection. I do readily admit that my determinism is likely biasing my responses, but I did try to assume freewill. Like I wrote, I’d allow suffering and evil that comes about as a result of freewill, but disallow unnecessary suffering.
My real challenge is that the Christian concept of God is incompatible with selective salvation. Also, please don’t get me wrong. I am not trying to convert you. All I’m asking is for Christians to admit that their religion has some deep-seeded problems and doesn’t have all the answers. As such, it’s morality and world view should not be taught in public schools (at home and in church are great places for that), and should not be part of a secular government’s laws. Also, I’d ask Christians to recognize that non-Christians and atheists can be just as moral, and maybe even more so, as they are.
If I judge your character correctly, Mic, you probably have no problems with these ideas. I think you even wrote that you do not have all the answers in one of your previous posts (I do not either). That is the reason why we can have these fascinating discussions. I enjoy debate. That is the only reason I am challenging you on these difficult and interesting topics. I hope you are getting something out of the debate as well.
February 10th, 2007 at 7:27 pm
“Now, for my question: Are you emotionally detached from the issue of the existence of God…”
I don’t know, are you emotionally detached from the existence of the Zues or the Flying Spaghetti Monster?
“…and if so, do you see yourself as determined to disprove/ refute evidence of the existence of God or are you objectively pursuing the truth, not completely dismissing the possibility of His existence since all knowledge has not been discovered yet? Mic”
Well, I’m just as open as the next guy, but I’m not naive and theres a big difference. If god came down and gave me proof of his existence, I’d be the first to believe. I’m will not, however, believe based on a feeling or the desire to believe, especially when I know that there’s so much evidence against it.
As for what hasn’t been discovered yet, any beliefs you have are based on speculation alone… and poor speculation at that.
February 10th, 2007 at 7:15 pm
@ Sid
I can see where your disbelief in freewill affects your answer. Post 125 was not an analogy in the true definition. It was never an attempt at representing God point for point but rather a simplified, general snapshot at one of the facets of God.
Your vision of your creation reflects your un-freewill beliefs in that you would force everyone to be good and not fight or hurt each other. Put a leash on everyone so they stay right behind mother duck and we all live happily ever after. Please, wake me when it’s over. The reality is we all want to be our own boss. We want everyone to see it our way, do we not? No one’s gonna tell me what to do!!! God gave us what we want when the serpent said “You surely will not die” and we fell for it. Pun intended. Love you Sid, Mic
February 10th, 2007 at 6:57 pm
@your father,
I reread my answer to your question and I’ll admit it was indirect. If you have been following this discussion I have already laid out why I’m a Christian and some of my experiences. The reality of Christ in my life? The answer I am going to give you is true, but it isn’t the nice, neat, all wrapped up in a mathematical bow answer that your are looking for. God cannot be contained by human logic and reason. That is why it takes faith. Many are trying to find Him within this universe when the Creator is outside of creation, looking in. Now before you start barraging me with questions about my answer, I am asking you one first after my answer. I’m being transparent here. I would like you to do the same.
Jesus is everything to me. I love God! He loves me! He is my Lord and as much as I want to say otherwise, I am not always obedient. I want to serve Him anyway He wants me to, but there are times when my humanity gets the better of me. I can physically feel His presence at times and sometimes, I regret to say, I push Him away. He meets me wherever I am, and I can talk to Him about anything, anywhere, anytime, but many times I don’t and I try to settle it on my own. Without Him I am lost and if that sounds weak that is good. I consider weakness and relience on Him to be virtuous. In other words, the reality of God in my life is my relationship with Him. It isn’t about following the rules, if you are in right relationship with Him, His commands are not burdensome, but a pleasure to comply with for the King. The pursuit of my life will be to seek further intimacy with Him.
Now, for my question: Are you emotionally detached from the issue of the existence of God and if so, do you see yourself as determined to disprove/ refute evidence of the existence of God or are you objectively pursuing the truth, not completely dismissing the possibility of His existence since all knowledge has not been discovered yet? Mic
February 10th, 2007 at 6:25 pm
Hey Mic,
If I were in the driver’s seat, as you put it, I probably would bestow freewill (if such a thing were possible). But, I would not make belief in me, my son, and or particular myths a criteria for salvation. I’d also not have any unnecessary suffering (some suffering would be the result of freewill). And I certainly wouldn’t bestow freewill and then punish my creations for using it! Similarly, I wouldn’t instill a sense of reason in my creations and than make abandoning it necessary to avoid eternal and ultimate pain.
In post 125, you made an analogy between the parent-child relationship and the God-human relationship. This is a common analogy put forth when I question how an all-loving, omnipotent, omniscient God is compatible with selective salvation. While a parent is likely all-loving of a child, they lack the latter two qualities. If a parent did know everything and could do anything, I am certain that they would never allow their children to become eternally separated from them. Is that not what the Christian God does by sending nonbelievers to Hell? It’s not the punishment aspect I object to. For that, the analogy is apt. We do punish our children for their own good. What I object to is the permanent and extreme nature of the punishment. The analogy fails because of this.
February 10th, 2007 at 6:04 pm
“It is real to her and as she is thinking of all of the people in the world that do not have this power, she is troubled. So therefore she is not being tortured by anyone but she is taking the burden of the unsaved upon herself and praying for God to show Himself to them.”
Needless ache and burden… that counts as torture in my book.
Why is she feeling that way? because she firmly believes in god. Why does she believe in god? someone taught her.
So we can either say “God”(or the idea of god) is torturing her, or that person does or did cause her suffering.
How would you think about a child who cries itself to sleep every night thinking about how Global Warming(or some other “big thing(tm)”) will destroy all of us, and we don’t even know it? I’d say he/she needs to losen one hell of a bit up. Same for this girl, it IS troubling how much of a burden the whole thing is for her. How old is she? 5 to 7 years old? 10 at most?
Oh and you’re welcome to contact the admin to make a Just Ask session for you. Then we can discuss your “proof” of god into detail(and you better pray that god lends you a hand and makes you come up with rational proofs that take more than 5 lines to disprove)
February 10th, 2007 at 4:20 pm
“You always cry for “proof†when proof is all around you.”
We also cry hypocrisy, circular and fallacious logic, not to mention ruining the world for the rest of us.
“He has already done so many times and yet you credit His workings to coincidence or science.”
We attribute things to science because we can prove and reproduce them using science. For that particular kind of logical fallacy, I point you to http://www.whydoesgodhateamputees.com/ .
February 10th, 2007 at 4:14 pm
Mic
I’m asking for arguments and you’re giving me anecdotes. I could give you just as many stories about people going from Christianity to atheism.
“The Church in China has pledged 100,000 missionaries to walk the anchient silk trade routes through the middle of the muslim world to spread the Good news of Christ. Knowing full well that as many as half will die in the effort.”
Devotion does not equate to truth. I find that story to be very disturbing…
“I would encourage you to look outside the boundaries of this country, where most people think they have no need for God because we are able to supply for our needs.”
MOST of the people in the world do believe in some sort of god, just as most of the world is uneducated. In the developed world, atheism is on the rise.
The truth is you don’t know why non-believers don’t believe. The reasons could be anywhere from tradition to simply not deeming religion necessary to finding it ridiculous, out of date, and completely out of touch with reality.
Let’s recap, aside from ad populum arguments sprinkled with anecdotes and circular logic, you’re reason for believing is god’s “reality” in your life. Now I can’t help but ask what you mean by that.
February 10th, 2007 at 3:02 pm
The reason that the girl sounds desperate is not for herself, it’s because she aches for the people that aren’t following God. She is firm in what she believes and is not praying for you to hear, she’s praying for God to hear and to draw people unto Him. God or her parents are not torturing her. Even though she may not understand about the intricacies of Chrisianity, she fully understands and has experienced the power of God in her life. It is real to her and as she is thinking of all of the people in the world that do not have this power, she is troubled. So therefore she is not being tortured by anyone but she is taking the burden of the unsaved upon herself and praying for God to show Himself to them.
The reason that some of you have not experienced God’s power is because you are not open to it. Why should God prove himself to you? He has already done so many times and yet you credit His workings to coincidence or science. You always cry for “proof” when proof is all around you.
February 10th, 2007 at 1:39 pm
@your father,
You said “Why would this god, though human-like, need servant if he was omnipotent… and to those xians who think we’re some sort of god’s experiment instead, why would such a god want us to worship him? There is no reason for it.”
First I would like to apologize if I worded anything to suggest that God was “human-like”. We “resemble” Him and as such can identify with some, a fraction, of what He is feeling.
You also said “What is the thing that allows you to hold on to your cherished comforting beliefs in the face of the obvious?”
The “thing” is the reality of God in my life. My disbelief “in the face of the obvious” is how I managed to cling to my belief in the world for so long. I would encourage you to look outside the boundaries of this country, where most people think they have no need for God because we are able to supply for our needs. (I don’t think it will always be this easy) In other parts of the world ie: Iraq, Egypt Kazakstan, China, people are abandoning religion and coming to Jesus by the thousands every day. The Church in China has pledged 100,000 missionaries to walk the anchient silk trade routes through the middle of the muslim world to spread the Good news of Christ. Knowing full well that as many as half will die in the effort. I would encourage you to check any preconceived ideas at the door and take an objective perspective at Christianity. A guy named Lee Strobel was an atheist investigative reporter for the Chicago Sun-Times (I think it was that paper)He started an expose’ on Christianity to dig up as much dirt as he could on it. You know what happened? He came to Christ and he wrote a book called “A Case for Christ”. We have this erroneous image of God, that He is waiting to rub us out like an ant when we do wrong. When a more accurate picture is one of a Father who is rooting for us to live the life He has called us to. Hey, the Bible says Jesus sits at the right hand of the Father, always interceding for US! That’s a comforting thought don’t you think? Mic
February 10th, 2007 at 12:30 pm
@Mic
Presume you’re right and there is a god who had the exact same desires and manner of intelligence and creativity (although presumably more) as humans (which in and of itself should tell you that such a being’s very existence makes absolutely no sense, but I digress).
Why would this god, though human-like, need servant if he was omnipotent… and to those xians who think we’re some sort of god’s experiment instead, why would such a god want us to worship him? There is no reason for it.
It makes much more sense if you look at it from this perspective. As an evolutionary defense mechanism, people see human/animal intention where none exist because although these feelings are usually false positives, you only need to be right once to save your life in the wild. When humans start to dream up omnipotent forces in the world, they would also want to take advantage of them somehow. This is where worship comes in.
Just out of curiosity, what is it that you tell yourself when you start to question your beliefs (if at all)? What is the thing that allows you to hold on to your cherished comforting beliefs in the face of the obvious? I don’t mean to sound like an asshole or anything, but I just don’t understand how so many people can do it.
February 9th, 2007 at 11:07 pm
@Sid
I’ll take the bait;)
First I would ask you to reread #125.
I would expand on that by putting you, Sid, in the driver’s seat. If you had the power to create a universe, would you “program” the inhabitants to worship you? Would you be vain enough to make “robotic” inhabitants to come and do all your bidding? I believe it would be pretty boring after a while, and take on a rather sterile atmosphere. You can read many sad stories of the rich and famous who want nothing more than to be loved for who they are, not what they are. The Lord desires people who will worship Him in spirit and in truth, to willingly surrender their wills and their lives to serve Him. To trust in His provision and not the power of their flesh to provide. (so He can really show Himself as God in their lives!) To fall on the Rock that is Christ, break and admit we are weak and can truly do nothing (worth eternal reward)without Him. To be willingly obedient to Him in every way.
How would you do it different?
Lastly I will say briefly that here on earth we expect our human judge to judge righteously and without fault or compromise. (We tend to cry foul very quickly when they don’t!) so why is it different when it comes to God. His word says He desires all to be saved, but He will not compromise His nature with man’s choices. However, He has made another way!! Mic
February 9th, 2007 at 9:23 pm
“I think this is pretty much where we diverge. Sid, as neither a christian or athiest, from where you sit, do you see any avenues of discussion other than the he said/she said which this usually devolves to at this point?”
First I’d like to mention that I don’t really understand what people mean by ’supernatural’. I suppose that, literally, it means “of a better quality than nature”. But what does ‘nature’ mean in this context? Since nature/supernature discussions are usually metaphysical in essence, ‘nature’ is usually understood to mean “all that exists; the universe”. Thus, ’supernatural’ would mean “of a better quality than all that exists”, which makes no sense. If there is a ’supernatural’ thing, it must too exist and thus be part on nature.
For that reason, I can’t say that I believe in anything supernatural. This includes God. I think that God is part of nature. A part that is metaphysically necessary and from which all other parts of nature derive their ultimate existence, but a natural thing nonetheless.
Now to your question. This is usually were these sorts of discussions break down, in my experience. I really enjoyed our conversation with Mic. I find him to be very affable and reasonable. If all religious people think and act like he demonstrated on this site, I would have no problem with the religious and their beliefs.
We could continue the discussion simply by traversing from topic to topic, which is really what we’ve been doing all along. I still would like to see Mic’s (or any other Christian’s) response to my challenge in the first paragraph of comment #128.
February 9th, 2007 at 8:36 pm
I would guess right about where we are now, and have been for the last x-thousand years.
Looks like little kids of the next generation are going to have to call on the skills learned from all that play with toy swords and guns, just as much as some of our generation - and our parents - and their parents…. :(
February 9th, 2007 at 8:33 pm
@Mic/134
I think this is pretty much where we diverge. Sid, as neither a christian or athiest, from where you sit, do you see any avenues of discussion other than the he said/she said which this usually devolves to at this point? Damned if I can :-/
Re the P.S. - sorry, wasn’t meant to be a question, and was a bit off-topic - just that, if my (admittedly) preconcieved point of view that “tounges” is just a mechanistic thing happened to be correct, then tounges would be a phenomenon which told us a lot about about the machine that generated it, like what the parts were. How language is assembled out of things like concepts, sound, grammar etc is an ongoing question in neuroscience and one that interests me, so I was just wondering if the religious question might shed some light on the less controversial linguistic one too.
February 9th, 2007 at 4:35 pm
This makes me wonder where the world will be in thirty years, when this child and the like will be adults and attempting to gain political power. Absolutely horrifying.
February 9th, 2007 at 12:43 pm
@Pastor
have you ever seen this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fDp7pkEcJVQ
I think it pretty much covers all the fallacies in your last post, and in a clever manner no less.
By the way, concepts like “spiritual DNA” aren’t exactly piling on the credibility.
February 9th, 2007 at 9:56 am
@ Sid and recovered catholic,
If you have time, here is a very detailed (and I think you will agree very believable) account of a skeptical woman receiving the gift of tongues and what happened. The blog is a little long, part 2 has the most “meat” to it.
http://adventuresinmercy.wordpress.com/2007/01/29/speaking-in-tongues-a-super-sleuth-reports-part-1/
February 8th, 2007 at 11:19 pm
Singing in tongues http://www.secretplaceministries.org/pages/articles/singing_in_the_spirit.html
Can’t find speaking though, sorry, Lights out, Mic
February 8th, 2007 at 10:56 pm
Link of video of tongues in BORAT movie
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OKecdmjftYE
February 8th, 2007 at 10:46 pm
According to wikipedia, some other religions have, in the past, claimed glossololia but the best I can tell only voodoo is still around now. (and I think most people deny voodoo exists) So there may be a couple of people besides Christians who claim to practice glossololia. Mic
February 8th, 2007 at 10:37 pm
Pastor Guy, I’d like to believe in God. The very thought of someone looking after me and providing for me after death is alluring. However, I have this annoying habit of using my brain and my inner strength to find solace. I do not fear death so much as the process of dying. Sitting in bed slowly dying of cancer for months would probably bring me closer to a belief in God, just like torture brings a man to confess a crime he didn’t commit.
I understand that either one of us could be right on this whole God thing, but something inside tells me that we’re both wrong my friend.
Is God an intelligent being? Maybe God is the Universe itself. Of course God could also be some old white guy. I don’t know and neither do you. You have faith and admittedly I do not.
But what I do have is a love for life and compassion for my fellow man. If not believing in God makes me a bad person in spite of this, then so be it. I speak with my actions, not with my words.
gasmonso
February 8th, 2007 at 10:33 pm
Hey Recovered Catholic,
In reference to your post #127, I am anchored in certain beliefs but I will humbly admit that I don’t have a corner on the truth. (I know Someone who does though:) I consider this virtue.
You said “I think we are in comfortable agreement then that this has a natural explanation and that we disagree as to whether this natural phenomenon was set up with divine purpose by a supernatural being.” Yes, but I believe Christians are the only people this phenomenon is found in. We can obviously “test” anyone claiming this ability by hooking him up to whatever machine they use to do that brain test and checking out his “lobes”. (forgive me I’m an old soldier not a brain surgeon)
I would not agree with you on the existence of the natural without the supernatural. I think Sid agrees with me on this point.
You would have to explain your P.S. question to me more specifically for me to answer. I would imagine there would be some recordings online. If I find one I will post the link. If not maybe I’ll make one. Mic
February 8th, 2007 at 10:16 pm
gasmonso
Psalm 14:1 says, “A fool says in his heart there is no God.”
From what part of you says there’s no God? Is it from your heart? Or is it only from your head that you say there is no God? How do you know?
I know many individuals who were on their death beds who claimed to be stuanch Atheists. They were faced with the reality of death and little did they know, as their bodies were slowly being emptied of life they had a supernatural experience (some have seen Hell and it wasn’t just a dream) that changed their lives.
You tell me this…When you’re on your death bed what do you think you’ll be thinking about during the last few moments before you pass from this life to the next?
Here’s the truth: Eternity was put in your heart from the day you were conceived in your mothers womb. Therefore, heaven should be every mans home…but, because of our deviant behaviour through the seed of adam we are all born into sin. We messed up! For some reason we don’t want to face the whole deal that we messed (in the past) and continue (present future) to mess things up. Our Spiritual DNA is a sinful one. In order to be forgiven and washed clean of our sins we need to Confess our sins, BELIEVE in our hearts that God raised Jesus from the dead and we are saved (or free from the bond we have with sin).
Here are a few other things to think about!
“However, the existence of God cannot be proven or disproved. The Bible even says that we must accept by faith the fact that God exists, “And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to Him must believe that He exists and that He rewards those who earnestly seek Him†(Hebrews 11:6). If God so desired, He could simply appear and prove to the whole world that He exists. But if He did that, there would be no need for faith. “Then Jesus told him, ‘Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed’†(John 20:29).”
“I Don’t Have Enough Faith to be an Atheist”
Norm Geisler/Frank Turek.
P.S. Creation announces the amazing handy work of God! Oh, by the way…did you know that God doesn’t believe in Atheists?
Pastor Guy
February 8th, 2007 at 8:43 pm
P.S. - would love to hear about what language-like features are retained - what it sounds like and feels like - I would love to know if this sheds some light on how different aspects of language are processed, and perhaps even entertain the possibility that this could point to where they are localised in the brain.
Of course we are still going to disagree as to whether it was you or the spirit that switched them off, but that doesn’t make me less interested :)
P.S. - are there any audio or video recordings of this on line?
February 8th, 2007 at 8:39 pm
Hey Mic,
I think we are in comfortable agreement then that this has a natural explanation - and that we disagree as to whether this natural phenomenon was set up with divine purpose by a supernatural being.
I can pay that - the existance of the natural does not logically preclude the existance of a supernatural. I used to be quite fond of the “god created evolution” argument myself - it seemed silly to think a divine being would continue to do things by hand when any lowly corporate middle manager knows that you should be creating systems to get tasks done, like evolution for designing critters, or a frontal lobe off-switch for trancendental experiences.
By the same token, I am sure you have no problem acknowledging that the existence of the natural does not *require* the existence of the supernatural, right?
February 8th, 2007 at 5:30 pm
Hey Recovered Catholic,
What I meant to say was I am fascinated how God supernaturally uses the natural to accomplish His purposes. Mic
February 8th, 2007 at 5:03 pm
Hey Recovered Catholic,
You said “do you really mean to say that for you the jury is still out on whether there is a natural or supernatural reason for what you experienced?”
No the jury has been in, it just continually fascinates me. The discoveries of how God does what He does. Incidently, it isn’t “gibberish”. Diner bell is ringing, will expound later. Mic
February 8th, 2007 at 4:15 pm
Hey Mic,
Ah, but I don’t believe in freewill, but that is another conversation. Even if there were such a thing as freewill, it’s still is a problem. Did God not know that freewill would lead to most people not being saved? Does God not have the power to grant freewill and ensure universal salvation? Or is it that God simply doesn’t care enough about humanity to ensure that we are all saved?
By the way, I’ll have to retract my DMT-Glossolalia hypothesis. Every source I found either was from Mr. McKenna, or references him directly. The only thing I found from reputable sources was that DMT causes people to talk very fast and have trouble talking. That’s quite different from speaking in tongues.
Oh, and the only reason I guessed Pentecostal is that it is the only charismatic denomination that I know of.
February 8th, 2007 at 3:56 pm
@Mic
Curiouser and curiouser. Your article link stated the activation patterns in the prefrontal cortext was the *opposite* of what is seen with meditiation - and now what you describe sounds a little like the opposite of meditation - instead of deliberately concentrating on something, you deliberately “unconcentrated”. Fascinating stuff!
also,
There are a few parts to the “speech area”, brocas area, wernicke’s area and so on, and the article does not specify which are(s) was/were inactive - in any case, here we have someone who’s speech area is off line, and they open their mouth and nonsense comes out - isn’t that about exactly what you would expect???
I think you deserve some credit too - you do seem honestly very rational and to engage in open-minded discussion, and I think that’s a hard thing to do - I know I don’t do as well as Sid at leaving my preconceived ideas at home. However - do you really mean to say that for you the jury is still out on whether there is a natural or supernatural reason for what you experienced? I would have thought from some of what you say that your conclusions are already fixed? If so, do you see that as a vice or a virtue?
February 8th, 2007 at 3:28 pm
BTW, not Pentacostal, just a Christian:)
February 8th, 2007 at 3:17 pm
Hey Sid,
In response to “If such an experience is so utterly convincing, why does God not simply induce such an experience in us all, so there would be no doubt?”
Why did He give us freewill? You don’t have any kids yet but maybe you can still relate to this. When my kids were little, sometimes they would run in the house after playing outside all day and say something like, “Dad, can I have/ do such and such?” and I want to give them those things but I want something too. So I say to them, “Slow down Buddy, come sit on my lap and give me a hug”. You see, I don’t want my kids to love me because I give them stuff, I want them to love me because I’m Dad and I love them. Same with God. He wants to give us so many good things (spiritual and physical) but in essence He is saying, “Hey, slow down little buddy and stay with me a while.” Jesus said to know the Father is eternal life. We have to spend time (giving up the stuff we want to do like go outside and play) getting to know Him. That means prayer. There are Christians right now in America that pray and worship God up to 14 hours a day! (check out http://www.ihop.org) I could just as easily say “Why am I not one of them?” We all have different levels of grace to do the things God calls us to. However, we all have the grace to come to Him. The library is calling me, Mic
February 8th, 2007 at 1:31 pm
Hey Mic, (from your post #122)
I must of linked the wrong URL. I had a lot of websites opened while researching this topic. What did I accidentally do, link a Terrance McKenna publication? (Sid checks the link). I did! LOL. That fella is one interesting dude. He was an ethnopharmacologist for many years. I used to read his stuff in college. I’ll see if I can find the other link. It might have to wait though. DMT is a schedule 1 drug in the US and researching it while at work really isn’t the best idea.
February 8th, 2007 at 1:23 pm
That is interesting, Mic. You are correct, speaking in tongues does not guarantee such an experience, so there must be something (in addition?) at work there. Am I correct in assuming that those who didn’t have hallucinations and loss of control had less profound experiences? Could it be that a lesser about of the neurotransmitter was released for them?
Glossolalia and DMT are definitely correlated. Furthermore, DMT often causes glossolalia. I was just hypothesizing that the converse might be true; maybe speaking in tongues can sometimes cause a DMT release of varying doses.
Thanks for the compliment. I like that you aim to reconcile science with your spirituality. It show a certain amount of spiritual maturity that your beliefs are not threatened by physical explanations.
I’m still interested in your response to some of the other questions I posed about your experience. If such an experience is so utterly convincing, why does God not simply induce such an experience in us all, so there would be no doubt? You can read post #107 for the detailed wording. Instead of ’single you out’, think of it as ’singling one group of people out’, or ‘you’ in the collective sense as in ‘all of you (who have had real encounters)’.
February 8th, 2007 at 1:15 pm
@Sid
Did you fully read the website on DMT? I can understand some people having difficulties with God but I believe most of us would have difficulties with some of the things this guy is writing about. Here is a quote:
“The psilocybin mushrooms also convey one into the world of the tryptamine hyper-
continuum. Indeed, psilocybin is a psychoactive tryptamine. The mushroom is full of
answers to the questions raised by its own presence. The true history of the galaxy over
the last four and a half billion years is trivial to it.”
There is no question that this guy is learned and a quite experienced pharmacological traveller. But I think we can both admit there is a difference between the effects one gets from smoking DMT (the beginning said it was an oral drug but he later refers to smoking it?) and praying. And if there isn’t, we can put the kingpins of coke out of business! Your thoughts? Mic
February 8th, 2007 at 1:03 pm
@Sid,
Thank you, I will check out the site on DMT.
This is a plausible explanation for this phenomena in the natural(you may have even found out a bit of how He does it)and people who have not had such an experience may accept it. Two things it doesn’t touch on though are the dramatically different experiences of the two women that were with me (they had neither visions or loss of control, but spoke in tongues only) and right now I’m not hallucinating but am speaking in tongues. I like you Sid for you drag no prejudice to the table. I believe you truly seek the truth. Mic
“We are after the truth, wherever it might lead” - Carl Sagan
February 8th, 2007 at 12:46 pm
Ok Mic, it posted. It is post number 116. Let me know what you think.
February 8th, 2007 at 12:32 pm
Hey, Mic.
I’ve already tried to post a response, but for whatever reason (a strange web link?), it hasn’t shown up yet. I’ll let you know when it’s released.
February 8th, 2007 at 12:25 pm
@recovered catholic
You said “2. by changes in brain activity because the holy spirit got in there and fiddled around with things, right when you told him to.”
Small correction in that I never “told” Him, I actually surrendered to His will and He did whatever He wanted to from there.
Yes, I agree! I think it is fascinating how, through science and technology, we are starting to see how He does it! The part of the article that blew me away was how the speech center of the brain is not functioning while a person is speaking in tongues. Your faith in my self control is well placed, even scriptural, in that I allow the Spirit to speak and then He takes over. It is quite edifying. Mic
February 8th, 2007 at 12:03 pm
Dear Asta,
I agree with you that hearing young kids sob like that is difficult. It tugs at my heart. You say you have found a church after much searching so I am asuming you are a Christian. I will agree that God is Joy and He is Love, and as such His heart is hurting for those who turn from Him. True prayer is initiated by the Spirit. When He is hurting, we should be hurting. That is part of the “fellowship of His sufferings” (Phil 3:10)Check out Matthew 5 (sometimes referred to as Christianity 101) not a lot of love, joy , and happiness happening in that chapter. We are called to mourn and to be humble, contrite of heart (literally translated, ground into powder)Also, to conform God to our own image of Him (vice the way He really is) is a form of idolatry. So we must seek to know Him as He truly is. In my human perspective, knowledge, emotions and understanding, all those people who died in the flood (or Katrina for that matter) is a hard pill to swallow. I don’t get what He is doing sometimes, but I trust He is working all things for the good (RO 8:28) He is sovereign. He created it all and He owns it all, so He can give and He can take away. Isaiah 29:16
You turn things around!Shall the potter be considered as equal with the clay,That what is made would say to its maker, “He did not make me”;Or what is formed say to him who formed it, “He has no understanding”?
As for intolerence, Christians are called to love everyone. (I regret to admit this isn’t always the case) Christ loved, and prayed for, the soldiers nailing Him to the cross. He hung out with all the worst of sinners while on earth. But He didn’t endorse their lifestyle, He loved them and called them to repentence so He could spend eternity with them. He suffered and died for everyone and He desires the reward for His suffering. That is to spend eternity with you. Just thinking out loud:) Mic
February 8th, 2007 at 11:56 am
Hey Mic,
Thanks for sharing. Are you Pentecostal, by chance? All of the descriptions of people’s behavior and experiences during a charismatic experience are strikingly similar to someone on dimethyltryptamine (DMT). DMT is a powerful hallucinogenic compound that causes users to have visions that are invariable interpreted as ’spiritual’ or ‘divine’. They also often will speak in tongues while tripping. Interestingly enough, the same compound is produced by the human brain, albeit in small quantities normally. A full technical source can be found by following this link. You can also just Google “dimethyltryptamine and glossolalia”.
DMT is often use in South American traditional religious practices to induce spiritual experiences. My guess is that glossolalia can cause the brain to release more DMT and induce a spiritual experience. This is what I believe to be happening to people during a charismatic experience.
Anyway, I definitely believe you had a significant experience. What I don’t believe is your interpretation of said encounter. There are several reasons you’d be predisposed to a Christian interpretation of your experience:
1. It took place during a Christian ceremony, of a sort.
2. You were already expecting something from God, since you said that you’d been praying for power from God for the days leading up to it. Thus, it was self-vindicating to adopt a Christian interpretation.
3. Everyone around also attributed their experience to God/Jesus.
4. The only explanation of what had happened immediately after your profound experience was from Christians who had an interest in you adopting a Christian interpretation.
Those are my thoughts. I’m interested in your response.
February 8th, 2007 at 10:56 am
I couldn’t view the entire video because the “prayers” of the children were filled with so much pain. It hurt me spiritually to hear their screams.
Recently I have attended a church which I think will become a large part of my life (finally and at long last of years of searching), and the reason for that is the message I consistently hear and experience from the pastors — that God = Joy. God = Love. Mic’s posts above struck a chord with me when he described the Joy he felt in the presence of the Christ.
To hear a child “praying” in such agonized sobs is just so wrong to me. Children should be happy and laughing. These children aren’t being taught the Love of God, they are subtly being taught intolerance, IMHO. I have much concern for their emotional development as they mature.
February 8th, 2007 at 8:24 am
@Mic
Very cool!! Thanks for that link!
I think it is so fascinating that functional imaging is beginning to reveal actual state changes that correspond to religious experience.
I do wonder though:
1) there is an organ, the brain, that generates sensation, thoughts, and feelings.
2) under certain voluntarily induced conditions, people experience different and new sensations, thoughts, and feelings.
3) functional imaging shows that under these voluntarily induced conditions, the organ is functioning in a new and different way
Why is there anything left to explain? Isn’t that just it?
Black belts can perform amazing feats of strenth, such as smashing a brick with thier bare hand. Orthordox explanations hold that they use magic “chi” power that that they push out of their hand to smash the brick. More modern studies using slow motion video and material science show how their co-ordinated muscle movement generates very high arm speeds, like baseball pitchers (who, as far as I know, do not use magic chi powers), and how the bones in their hand dislocate on impact letting their hand act like a wet bag of cement so the bones don’t break, and simple newtonian calculations also show that the force generated by the deceleration of this blob-of-hand excedes the load bearing strenth of the brick, as tested by hydraulic presses and other non-chi using means.
In the face of this, the chi claim seems a little shaky.
here we have your very real (and now I think demonstrably provable) sensations and behaviour, explained either by
1. changes in brain activity
or
2. by changes in brain activity because the holy spirit got in there and fiddled around with things, right when you told him to.
But I have to say, I will not be doubting again that you felt *something*. You have got me curious about what it feels like, it must have been quite a trip!!
I just have more faith in your self-control than you do, that’s all.
February 8th, 2007 at 7:16 am
From the NY Times: Researchers at the University of Pennsylvania took brain images of five women while they spoke in tongues and found that their frontal lobes — the thinking, willful part of the brain through which people control what they do — were relatively quiet, as were the language centers. The regions involved in maintaining self-consciousness were active. The women were not in blind trances, and it was unclear which region was driving the behavior.
Link to the story:
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/11/07/health/07brain.html?ei=5070&en=6d207cf06d200d34&ex=1171083600&adxnnl=1&adxnnlx=1170936526-d/yUZoKMYwMq2GwBHd0P9g
February 7th, 2007 at 10:57 pm
Irish,
I’m sorry that you were made to feel that way, as if something was wrong with you. If you read my entry again, you will see that I was skeptical and, up until the point this happened, I was not having a good time and even considered leaving. God had other ideas. I really didn’t believe the gift of tongues was for the modern age. I now believe otherwise. You are free to call it suggestion if you want, many in the church do. I will say this though: Only people who don’t speak in tongues, disagree with the gift of tongues. I am merely trying to relate my encounter to you guys like Sid asked. Good night all, Mic
February 7th, 2007 at 10:41 pm
@irishthunder
This next bit might look off-topic, but actually think it’s right on-topic. We have no reason to doubt Mic’s account of events - just as we have no reason to believe his conclusion that it was the magic sky-fairy, just because he is a little weak on neurobiology. That being the case, I really think we should avail ourselves of the obvious and natural explanations that biology provides.