I haven’t heard anything this emotionally disturbing in a long time. There is simply no way a child could possibly understand what they’re talking about on a subject so intricate and difficult as religion. This reminds me of those interviews with Muslim children you see on the news when they talk about how great Allah is, yet they don’t have a clue as to what they’re talking about. This is some whack stuff in my opinion which is why I share it with you guys :) NOTE: To play the video offline you can download the it here and the necessary software to view it here.
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June 4th, 2006 at 11:33 pm
That is pretty beat-up. The sad thing is, I know probably know the 17-year-old versions of those kids. They’re my friends and all, but I can’t help feeling alienated as a Jew among cross-carrying members of the God Squad.
June 5th, 2006 at 8:52 am
“We can be 8, 9, 10 years old, brain-washed, and creepy, Lord!”
June 5th, 2006 at 9:34 am
Please avoid using flash 8, there is no player for linux or mac…
June 5th, 2006 at 9:35 am
Yeah that’s not creepy at all. Yikes.
June 5th, 2006 at 9:51 am
Sorry Muzzle, but the source was in Flash 8 and I don’t have an adequate way of converting it to something else. If anyone has a suggestion, please contact me through the contact page.
gasmonso
June 5th, 2006 at 4:17 pm
Stunning, this appeals directly to the intellect of the veiwer. Thats it, i`m converting !
Kind of reminisent of http://www.isratv.com/video/filmpmwadsl.asx
June 5th, 2006 at 7:35 pm
WOW…I feel gross now. those poor kids.
June 6th, 2006 at 7:55 am
First, let’s all agree that yes, this is weird. The whole idea of recording children praying like this and then playing it back feels like some sort of religious child porn more than a devotional exercise. I’m not saying this is sexual, but that it’s posing children into specific shapes and sound-bytes for the pleasure/fantasy of imagining that if you do the right thing, all children–your children–can pray like this.
Second, children imitate those around them. Laughing at these kids is as much fun as laughing at a kid trying to ride a bike too big or trying to use training wheels. These kids are, in simple, imitative ways, grasping at mystery. As children, it would not surprise me one bit that they come closer than the adults they are mimicking to discovering God.
And of course, there’s the possibility that this is all a game to these kids and they know if they’ll pray loud and fast and like Sister Slappy, they’ll get an extra hot dog.
Sometimes, you just never know.
June 6th, 2006 at 3:16 pm
OK, that is it. I’m almost tempted to go back to school so I can become an abortion doctor.
June 10th, 2006 at 9:01 pm
dont youjust want to yell shut the fuck up and beat all those little kids with a bat? i really, really do.
June 11th, 2006 at 4:20 pm
You should try listening to this stuff while listening to Venetian snares….creepy
June 12th, 2006 at 4:50 pm
lolz…. little crazy twat brainwashed kids.
i wonder how does thyr parents look like :S
June 14th, 2006 at 12:22 pm
Child abuse.
June 14th, 2006 at 1:42 pm
ugh. Thats the creepiest shit I’ve seen/heard in a while.
I think I need a shower.
June 14th, 2006 at 9:03 pm
How terrible…how sad.
Where are these kids from?
Their parents need to be locked up…this is a result of abuse.
June 15th, 2006 at 6:10 pm
Little kid,
If there was a God such as the one you believe you are beseeching, he would have already dropped right down in front of you and told you to knock it off already.
Your parents should be ashamed.
June 16th, 2006 at 10:36 pm
Boy, that is some real scary shit. I thinks its almost child abuse to get children to think that way, deffenatly brain washing.
June 17th, 2006 at 9:58 am
Brainwashing comes in all flavors. For example, many have been brainwashed to think that multiculturalism and multiracialism are good things. One of the funniest and most foolish brainwashing slogans is “Diversity is our Greatest Strength”!
June 17th, 2006 at 3:01 pm
Yah, I’m with you John! One culture, one race. White Power!
June 17th, 2006 at 3:15 pm
John, are you inbred?
June 17th, 2006 at 3:40 pm
He’s just trying to start a flame war. Ignore his ignorance.
June 17th, 2006 at 6:27 pm
I had this playing and my husband just said, “shut that thing off. It makes me want to go get a gun”. Yikes.
June 17th, 2006 at 6:36 pm
LOL, it has a seriously high annoying factor that’s for sure. I would love to know who that girl is and who her parents are.
Honestly, I was impressed at how well she spoke… albeit insane. But impressive nonetheless :)
gasmonso
June 17th, 2006 at 6:45 pm
no wonder this world is a mess
June 22nd, 2006 at 2:58 pm
It’s too bad that those guys bombing churches missed this one. This place is dangerous and disgusting.
Lord,please protect me from the Christians, amen
June 22nd, 2006 at 8:40 pm
eeeeeeeeewwwwwwwwwwww!
June 24th, 2006 at 3:32 pm
dont blame jesus for peoples mistakes
June 30th, 2006 at 7:47 pm
The Hitler youth..no thought, no compassion, just whats programmed.
I’m sorry.
July 2nd, 2006 at 5:16 am
Jesus said “suffer the little children to come to Me”, not “let the little children suffer to come to Me.” That kind of raw, strong emotion is suffering. Children should not be brought up like that.
July 3rd, 2006 at 1:15 am
This is sick. The parents of these children should be in prison for child abuse. It is obsene! The sort of people who think this is good are the same people who would condemn other religions for brainwashing children!
July 4th, 2006 at 12:20 am
I am a person of faith and find the video of these kids praying in that manner at that age chilling. Is this the next generation of the religious right? If so, I am leaving North America and heading towards Australia, far away from this fanaticism. American Christianity is paying a high price from its proud and arrogant declaration from their so-called “freedom” from intellectualism.
July 5th, 2006 at 8:23 am
Sad, very sad. Parents teahcing their children to be fanatics. If it’s not the liberals, conservatives, or Islamic fanatics, it’s the so-cslled “Christians” ruining a generation of humanity.
“The mind is a terrible thing to waste.”
July 5th, 2006 at 11:18 pm
I say we all pitch in an get a commercial spot on the next Superbowl to play this video :)
gasmonso
July 18th, 2006 at 5:53 pm
how do i download the video i really want it to show to my church
July 18th, 2006 at 10:18 pm
I dont know who make the link to download it, but thanks!!!!!! GOD BLESS YOU
July 18th, 2006 at 10:52 pm
I have answered your prayers joel, now pleaase put a little something in the offering plate ;) Enjoy this crazy ass video my freaky friend :)
gasmonso
August 11th, 2006 at 5:02 am
Joel Vargas, please do not say ‘God Bless You’ on a webpage that is obviously frequented by atheists, it is rude.
August 11th, 2006 at 9:35 am
Hello godisamyth,
I’ve always been curious about the point you bring up. Why do atheists take offense to ‘God Bless You’? I’m neither an atheist nor a Christian, and when I hear it, I am slightly offended, but I cannot put my finger on why. On the face of it, taking offense to it seems as ridiculous as taking offense to ‘Happy Holidays’.
August 11th, 2006 at 11:04 am
Wow, I missed this video when it was posted. I just watched it. I am not sure if I should thank godisamyth for “bumping” it into visibility or not!
Putting aside all the brainwashing implications and the possibility that these kids don’t really know what they are saying…. Doesn’t it sounds like they are suffering? Desparate? Or even in terror? That is not love that I hear. Listen to their tone of voice. That is the sound of kids who has been locked in a closet begging to be be let out (not that I’ve ever done it, but I can imagine)… pleading with his or her parents… promising to be good… saying how great the parents are and how “nothing matters” but them. Child abuse does come to mind. Creepy, indeed.
August 11th, 2006 at 2:44 pm
As well spoken as this child is, her thought process shows definante immaturity. She starts out with a cry to bring the nation back to God. Most likely that’s how a lot of the prayers in her church and home start, so she echos that. But eventually she gets to her point, which seems to be something about not caring what you look like in front of the church. The whole prayer centers around physical appearance. And as much as she throughs in rhetoric about loving God, blessing nations, and preaching, the root of the message really is that we shouldn’t care about our fingernail polish.
Here’s the structure:
1. The nation has fallen. We can bring them back. We can be missionaries. Our message is:
2. You are greater than me. I don’t care about my hair.
3. Thanks for dying. We don’t need toys — just you.
4. Nothing matters when we are converted. Not fingernail polish, nor hair, nor candy.
5. Deliver people who care about thier looks from Satan.
6. Let us die so we won’t care about our looks.
It’s like some prettier girl at church was making fun of her.
It reminds me of a guy I used to know who would pray “Thank you for showing me humility, so that I know I don’t have to buy a new car.” The guy made 6 figures, but his family lived in poverity and he donated 90% of the money to the church. (Not really. The bishop told him he wouldn’t except that much from him and that he should feed and clothe his kids instead. So he found other charities to donate to.) Then he’d pray about how humble he was and how buying new cars was evil. Pissed off the people at church who worked hard to buy thier new cars.
August 12th, 2006 at 7:21 pm
sidfaiwu Hi
To me someone saying “god bless you” is rude because it is particially preaching. It is inflicting the idea of god where it is not wanted, and preaching to those who don’t want to be preached to is rape of the mind, and there is no excuse for it. It’s like me saying to a religious person, ‘god is dead’. Yes i think that but I would not say it after everytime a religious person did a good dead for me. A religious person would find this rude.
To sum it up, if i said to a religous person “my god the bottle of ketchup blesses u” I would think there are very few who wouldnt find it offensive. Yes there is good intention, but religion is the biggest conversation the world has ever had, and I also find it very disturbing.
August 12th, 2006 at 7:25 pm
And a point about the video. I have found out lately about American HELL HOUSES that show plays of what will happen to you if you don’t follow god rules etc. This is the brainwashing that people often talk about. i.e. these children are shown projcted images of humans in hell, and some of these images im told would struggle to even be shown in the cinema
August 13th, 2006 at 9:30 am
i really beleive this is something more than a word that aint just spoken out in blah but its something that comes only out through intimate relationship wid God,overwhelmed by his love which is expereinced only when we go to him because now i have come in to an understandin of who god is and wha it really matters and is a revelation of God to men who jesus real by his spirit and not by the mind of mindz
god blesss ya guz and jesus loves ya
August 13th, 2006 at 12:49 pm
“i really beleive this is something more than a word that aint just spoken out in blah but its something that comes only out through intimate relationship wid God,overwhelmed by his love which is expereinced only when we go to him because now i have come in to an understandin of who god is and wha it really matters and is a revelation of God to men who jesus real by his spirit and not by the mind of mindz
god blesss ya guz and jesus loves ya”
So what if when I say “god is dead” (or more accurately “god doesnt exist”) to a religious person, I really feel the lack of god in my heart, and am overwhelmed by the lack of his love. What if I also really understand that he cannot exist and just gotta share this.
The words and meaning don’t change. It’s still offensive.
God doesn’t exist. Jesus is dead and incapable of love. peace!!!
August 13th, 2006 at 1:23 pm
Someone after my own heart. The idea of god is a concept as firm a pixie dust. And thats all it is, a concept.
August 21st, 2006 at 3:43 pm
Think about it people…Consider that children are full of passion for things they love. If you have taught your kids to love candy or Chuck E. Cheese, or ice cream, they will with the same passion that you heard in that video, “pray” for it, until you give it to them…I’ve seen some of your children in the mall, grocery stores, etc. having a screaming fit, praying that you “buy me some candy!!!!”
So if a parent has shown their child who God is, and taught them to love him with that same conviction that your kid has learned to love “Barney,” and scream bloody murder if you don’t get them the new craze of the month, I would suggest that you should call it training of the mind rather than brainwashing. If you really want to call it brainwahing, then look at the kids around you, and see what it is that they snot, and scream, and cry and have tantrums about…When you put it in perspective, at least what these children are pleading about is not selfish, and it is a worthy cause…They are pleading for you, and me, and the world we live in.
I bet if bombs started dropping in your neighborhood right as you are reading this, then you’d probably be sounding like that little girl that very instant…So have some compassion for someone, other than yourself, because there are people, and yes little children, for whom that is a daily reality. The reason a bomb or plane or fire or lightning hasn’t hit your house, or you haven’t been caught in the cross-fire of a drive-by, could very well be because someone, like this little girl was interceding on the behalf of ignorant, selfish people.
August 21st, 2006 at 4:18 pm
Wow, Think about it…, you sure do make a bunch of assumptions about people not like yourself and a lot of assumptions about the universe in general.
First off, it seems as though you are trying to draw a false dichotomy between Christian kids and the kids that you see at malls, grocery stores, etc. I bet that 3/4ths of those kids at the mall ARE Christians. And I also bet that a sizable proportion of the well behaved kids have no religion at all.
Secondly, what malls, grocery stores, etc. do you go to?!? The screaming kids in the malls, grocery stores, etc. I’ve been to sound nothing like the kids in this video. Those in the video sound frightened and desperate. Those who don’t get what they want sound angry and impatient.
Thirdly, if bombs started dropping in my neighborhood I’d sound nothing like the little girl from the video. I’d be busy trying to get myself and as many other people to safety quickly. I know this because I’ve been in a few life-threatening situations.
Fourthly, we do have compassion for these children. That is precisely why we are so appalled by the video. It sounds like these kids are in pain. It’s clear that their religion is giving them no comfort!
Fifthly, your metaphysical assumptions are astounding:
a) God exists
b) God hears people’s prayers
c) God is willing to do something about it
d) God is able to do something about it
These assumptions are especially astounding when there is clear evidence that God does not answer all prayers.
Lastly, you call us ignorant and selfish. If someone is ignorant than why not enlighten them instead of insulting them? What truths do these ‘ignorant’ people lack? Are you sure that your ‘truths’ aren’t just opinions? I also fail to see how any of the posts indicate selfishness on anyone’s part. Where is your evidence?
In short, it seems that you disagree with the opinions expressed by many on this topic. But instead of offering your own opinion and letting it stand on its own merits, you resort to hyperbolic assumptions about those of us with a different opinion and insult us as well. Such behavior is shameful, especially from someone who trying to claim the moral high ground.
August 21st, 2006 at 4:57 pm
lol…sounds like you made more assumtions than you think I actually made…I never said God existed. I never assumed what belief kids are in the malls. and Lastly, I never called any of you ingnorant and selfish. I stated that she was probably interceding on the behalf of ignorant, and selfish people (I did not include the word “you” which means that you put yourself in that category…not me…lol)
Many are making the assumption that a deep plee or cry for something means that the child is being abused or something. They could just be very passionate about their desire and lack the maturity ask in a somewhat rational way, or have the mature patience to wait on a result, hence my examples about candy and stuff.
If you were offended by the things that I said, I apologize to you. I am not a religious person at all. I believe that there is a big distinction in what I believe, and a religious system, which is a man-made system of how they interpret what is actual Truth.
I’m not attacking anyone. I just don’t like to see a bunch of people bond together and agree on something for reasons that don’t match up with their own beliefs, and have not considered the similarities in their own world of existence.
August 21st, 2006 at 5:01 pm
REVISION———-
lol…sounds like you made more assumptions than you think I actually made…I never said God existed. I never even said that I believe in God. I never assumed what belief kids are in the malls. and Lastly, I never called any of you ingnorant and selfish. I stated that she was probably interceding on the behalf of ignorant, and selfish people (I did not include the word “you” which means that you put yourself in that category…not me…lol)
Many are making the assumption that a deep plee or cry for something means that the child is being abused or something. They could just be very passionate about their desire, and lack the maturity to ask in a somewhat rational way, or have the mature patience to wait on a result, hence my examples about candy and stuff.
If you were offended by the things that I said, I apologize to you. I am not a religious person at all. I believe that there is a big distinction in what I believe, and a religious system, which is a man-made system of how they interpret what is actual Truth.
I’m not attacking anyone. I just don’t like to see a bunch of people bond together and agree on something for reasons that don’t match up with their own beliefs, and they have not stopped to consider the reality of the similarities in their own world of existence.
August 22nd, 2006 at 10:02 am
On further review, I did definitely make one assumption. There may be one or two more assumption I made, but I defend the reasoning behind them below. So, allow me to revisit:
I did make an assumption about your belief about the screaming kids in malls. For that, I apologize.
I still assert that these kids don’t sound anything like angry mall kids.
You still assumed how I/we would react in a moment of crisis.
Here is my logic concerning your belief in God:
“The reason a bomb or plane or fire or lightning hasn’t hit your house, or you haven’t been caught in the cross-fire of a drive-by, could very well be because someone, like this little girl was interceding on the behalf of ignorant, selfish people.”
You claim that bad things don’t happen to us/me because of the girl’s intervention (via prayer to God), which implies that God exists, hears prayers, cares about prayers, and can do something about it.
From the same quote from your post, the insults can be seen. I’ll add emphasis to make this clearer:
“The reason a bomb or plane or fire or lightning hasn’t hit your house, or you haven’t been caught in the cross-fire of a drive-by, could very well be because someone, like this little girl was interceding on the behalf of ignorant, selfish people.”
So are you saying that the “ignorant, selfish people” you refer to is not the same “you” used earlier in the sentence? If not, on who’s behalf is the girl praying for to save my house from lightening?
August 22nd, 2006 at 11:00 am
and who says christianity isn’t a cult?
August 22nd, 2006 at 12:07 pm
Religion: A large, popular cult.
Cult: A small, unpopular religion.
September 5th, 2006 at 12:40 pm
“The reason a bomb or plane or fire or lightning hasn’t hit your house, or you haven’t been caught in the cross-fire of a drive-by, could very well be because someone, like this little girl was interceding on the behalf of ignorant, selfish people.”
Or it could be because of my location
September 5th, 2006 at 5:29 pm
Sure, she may be saying all of this in a voice that sounds as if she’s being tortured, but the message itself really isn’t very disturbing at all if you listen to what she’s actually saying. It’s strange, though I wouldn’t call it emotionally disturbing.
September 5th, 2006 at 6:00 pm
I would say its disturbing for several reasons. She’s obvously not old enough to look at the concept of religion objectively. She’s just been fed some lines about Jesus and believes them without giving it proper thought and criticism, and will no doubt continue to do so for the rest of her life. She’s going to go on to spread ignorance for ignorance sake.
She obviously wants to help people. The only problem is, the only “help” she’s going to give will be in the form of holding back the progress of science and bashing gays.
October 24th, 2006 at 8:12 pm
To whom it may concern,
There was a time in my life when I didn’t believe in GOD. Oh how lost and disturbed I was for 23 years. Just like the man who shot the kids in that Omish school. He said he was empty on the inside, just like I was then. He said he couldn’t bear it all in his suicide note, If only he could have found GOD he would have found comfort. Just like I did. Just like you are and I once was LOST! JESUS SAVES!!!!!!!!!
October 25th, 2006 at 12:31 am
lacey, it’s time for you medication again.
October 25th, 2006 at 7:27 am
Lacey,
Also, he was a pedophile and a sociopath, but I’m sure those are just peripheral reasons. What he needed was Jesus. What he couldn’t bear? No it wasn’t family problems or being teased like your average teen who feels “empty inside”. It was the fact that he couldn’t bear his urges anymore. The man needed therapy, not church.
October 25th, 2006 at 8:49 am
What was up with that shot from Braveheart in the middle?
October 25th, 2006 at 9:40 am
Oh my, I just finally watched this…. I’m ill now. Seriously physically ill. Listening to a girl screaming for the end of her life so that she can be in heaven where nothing will matter and claiming that the only thing that should matter in this world is faith… MORE than having a roof over your head?
These poor children have their whole lives ahead, and they’ve already given them up to wait for the end when everything will be better. I really don’t have much room for a witty or thrashing response… I’m just sick to my stomach and about two minutes from losing my breakfast. I think I agree with Dawkins now, teaching children faith is near equivical to child abuse.
October 28th, 2006 at 9:28 am
another dose of jesus
December 18th, 2006 at 2:01 am
Damn that bitches voice was annoying, We Dont Ask WE COMMAND YOU(when she was talkin 2 da devil) AHAHAHAHAH That shit was hilarious
December 18th, 2006 at 4:05 am
Fuck… fuck.
Fuck.
I’m SCARED.
January 13th, 2007 at 11:53 pm
I happen to be the mother of one of these next generation Jesus freaks as you call them, and I can tell you that at the age of 5 my daughter knew more about who God and Jesus are than most “religious” adults. She fully understands who He is, and it has been her choice to do so. These children do not blindly follow along as you suppose…no one who believes in the TRUE God of Israel does. It is those who chose to walk away from the truth of God’s Word that are blind. We all have a choice…to accept or reject His gift of grace. My child made the choice to believe Him and accept that gift of her own volition. And it is for people like you that these children pray despite your mockery and disdain of them.
January 14th, 2007 at 12:01 am
P.S. My daughter is now 13, and has not walked away from her decision to follow the Lord 8 years ago.
she says to tell you all that it is for people like you she prays daily, that you, too, may have your blinded eyes opened to the Truth before the day you actually stand before the One you deny. Then, your eyes will definitely be opened as you will see Him face to face, but it will be too late- your fate will be sealed and consigned to the pits of Hell.
January 14th, 2007 at 12:19 am
More hell threats… I wish you religious guys would come up with something more original to sway us “blind” people.
Can I have your daughter’s opinion of why we should follow Him(God of israel you call Him?) and not one of the countless other gods? And no saying that somebody died on a cross for us, because there are some other gods who did as much and more for humankind(according to their own religion)
Thanks for the prayer. Just change “open their blinded eyes” to “show them evidence” and I’ll surely convert as soon as He does.
January 14th, 2007 at 1:33 am
To Anonymous:
Ask God to show you evidence He exists with a heart that is sincere and OPEN to His answer and then read the Bible. Or perhaps you would like scientific evidence that supports the claims that only the Holy Bible makes(and no other “god” or their book can claim as their own)? Go to http://www.reasonstobelieve.com. Evidence He exists is all around us…everywhere.
And BTW, Hell is not a threat or a sway tactic, it is a reality.
January 14th, 2007 at 1:36 am
Addendum:
The link I posted above was the wrong addie. The correct link is as follows: http://www.reasons.org
January 14th, 2007 at 4:25 pm
God uses the weak things of this world to confound the wise.
January 14th, 2007 at 5:49 pm
I’m way too tired to post anything big right now, so i’ll try to just make a few points(yes i’m Anonymous from before)
Christianity(god of israel?) is the only religion claiming prior knowledge of scientific facts. Wrong: islam claims the same: http://www.answering-christianity.com/sci_quran.htm
my opinion: Both religions rely on stretching the meanings of some words and reinterpretting verses until it becomes unbearable.(yes i did read the scientific evidence in your website)
Hell is a reality: it’s a reality for you, because you torture yourself with the idea of eternal suffering. Until you prove in one way or another that hell is real, I guess we can say it’s not real enough for us average people(that reads NOT religious)
Asking god for evidence: Been there, done that. Or do you think it’s easy to abandon religion when i grew up in a society where religion is pretty much everything? But if being “open minded” about this evidence means not taking into account other scientific facts i know and being oblivious of stretched translations I guess I will have to be against God(tm) for all eternity.
May I ask another question? How can a child that is only 8 or 13 years old decide such things for herself? Did he/she read the original Holy Texts or just listened to a religious dude? We don’t allow children much for themselves before they are 18. Why is religion different?
January 14th, 2007 at 5:50 pm
Oh just in case you’re interested in hearing how science and religion meet, you’re welcome to read it on a scientific forum:
http://www.thescienceforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=5293&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0
January 18th, 2007 at 12:55 am
Open your eyes and see that this is the power of God. If you don’t repent and turn to the truth that is in Jesus Christ then you will be sent to hell for eternity.
God will use the youth and the weak to turn the nations to Christ.
January 18th, 2007 at 12:36 pm
Oh no, we have another Andrew, I’m going to have to come up with a nickname or something.
January 18th, 2007 at 1:35 pm
CrazyAndrew said:
“God will use the youth and the weak to…”
Let’s suppose for a moment that this is true… that the “youth and the weak” are being used and manipulated by “God” in order to achieve some end that “God” is seeking.
What does this tell us?
a) The youth and the weak lack free will, since “god” is actively using them, and
b) this God’s powers are limited, since he has to resort to manipulating little earth-critters in order to attempt to achieve some desired result. Simply that there could be something that God desires shows us that God is not omnipotent.
Fortunately for us, we have free will (more or less) and there is no god — an excellent combination, imo.
January 18th, 2007 at 4:44 pm
Oh where to begin… I have learned that in discussions about how I have read the bible with a heart that sincerely wanted answers and found only contradiction, injustice and hatred disguised as piety, I’m not allowed to start with the old testament. Something about that only applying to the laws of the nation of Israel or something (this of course leads to me wondering why its even in the bible if Christians are allowed to dismiss it so fast). Give that, lets just mosey right on into the new testament. So with that, lets begin
Humanistic Jones’ “Betcha didn’t know that was in the Bible!”
Today we have a mother so proud of her daughter for making the right choice and choosing to follow God and Christianity. Give that both of you are women and a family, I think you may find a few passages here interesting.
Jesus was a real family man wasn’t he? Despite never marrying himself, we all know that the traditional family was strongly supported by Christianity through its earliest writings, right? Oops, no, I’m sorry. See according to Matthew 19:29 “every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name’s sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life.” That’s right! Jesus calls to all his followers to forsake their own families. So much for the mother daughter bond there! But hey, that probably only applies to men, since Jesus specifically used the word men instead of everyone when he said that in Luke. And that’s okay then, because according to Paul in Romans 1:27, the whole reason that homosexuality is wrong is that “likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another” Clearly men can easily abandon their families because women are just there to be USED for their affections.
You may want to ask your pastor about these things… wait, no you shouldn’t do that. Remember that in 1 Corintians 14:34-35 “Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.” So just remember that you should both keep quite in church at all times and just wait till you get home to ask your husband what everything means (and I sure hope you aren’t divorced, there’s a good bit about that in here). Do you have a job where you hold rank over a man? Maybe you are a teacher? Heck most of my teachers were women, which may explain why I grew up into such a heathen because in 1 Timothy 2:12 Paul lets us know that he will “suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.” So I guess that women just need to stay at home and be subjigated by their husbands, as Paul states many many times in his letters.
Its not quite as colorful as the old testament (what with that righteous gang rape in Judges and such) but I think that should be enough to mill about. Have your daughter take a look at it, since it is going to be very important that she start getting ready now to be a man’s subjigation subject… I mean wife.
I do await your thoughts on these. I really like hearing the responses.
January 24th, 2007 at 2:03 pm
“It takes far more faith to believe in something that you can’t see, feel or hear then it does in something you can see, feel and hear.”
Read 1 Timothy 3:1-5. Tell me your thoughts…anyone?
Here’s a question to answer: “With what source does an Atheist conclude that there is no God?”
waiting for response!
January 24th, 2007 at 2:07 pm
Pastor Guy, you crack me up. Lemme ask you a question:
“With what source does a Christian conclude that there is no Flying Spaghetti Monster?”
waiting for a response!
But seriously, you have to prove that God exists. We don’t have to prove anything.
gasmonso
January 24th, 2007 at 2:56 pm
Or to use Bertrand Russell’s celestial teapot. Quoting Russell:
“Many orthodox people speak as though it were the business of sceptics to disprove received dogmas rather than of dogmatists to prove them. This is, of course, a mistake. If I were to suggest that between the Earth and Mars there is a china teapot revolving about the sun in an elliptical orbit, nobody would be able to disprove my assertion provided I were careful to add that the teapot is too small to be revealed even by our most powerful telescopes. But if I were to go on to say that, since my assertion cannot be disproved, it is intolerable presumption on the part of human reason to doubt it, I should rightly be thought to be talking nonsense. If, however, the existence of such a teapot were affirmed in ancient books, taught as the sacred truth every Sunday, and instilled into the minds of children at school, hesitation to believe in its existence would become a mark of eccentricity and entitle the doubter to the attentions of the psychiatrist in an enlightened age or of the Inquisitor in an earlier time.”
Source: http://www.positiveatheism.org/hist/quotes/russell.htm
January 24th, 2007 at 3:03 pm
For those without a copy of The Damn Bible (thank you Penn):
1 Timothy 3:1-5 This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work. A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach; Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous; One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity; (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)
So, lets see here. My thoughts, one, this proves that the Catholic church should lift that celebacy thing, at least in relation to Bishops. But what exactly do we think it means to have your children in subjection. Maybe that word has a bit of a negative conotation now, but it sounds to me like a Bishop should have his children cowering before him.
January 24th, 2007 at 3:13 pm
“A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife…”
Does this suggest that a Bishop must be married? Doesn’t it suggest that its okay for a layman to have more than one wife?
January 31st, 2007 at 5:03 am
You are so right gasmonso dude, we don’t have to prove that God exists. I also agree that some religions get out of hand; like blowing self and bus passengers up, shooting abortion doctors, judging, cursing and condemning people in the name of “god” (Who’s god and what god i have to wonder).
The bible is full of accounts where religious people loose touch with God and mess things up. These are leasons for teaching. Consequences are also illustrated.
Jesus slammed the holy rollers of the day by calling them hypocrites and sons of satan. They didn’t get it because they followed the law (ten commandments) and thought that was sufficient to achieve “heaven”.
The God most Christians believe in, is one who require a personal relationship with Jesus. Who is he? Where is he? Ya earnestly seek Him and you’ll find Him.
Your heart is where your treasure is, be it money, babes, party, drugs, attention, whatever, that is your religion.
Mine is: hang with Jesus and He will be faithful to educate, and care for me. Loose touch with my Lord and i could get lost into a religious hate fest.
my humble opinion folks.
February 5th, 2007 at 5:13 pm
If there is no God as some on this site suggest, what is evil? If I have free will, and I do, and I can be the god of my own life, where is your authority to tell me I’m wrong? If the world is really all about survival of the fittest, or if it makes you more comfortable, natural selection, then I cannot be held liable for preying on the weaker of the species as I’m only doing what is “natural”. Weeding out the weak, sick and the lame for the survival of man. Without God there really is no basis for morality. It turns into opinion, “I don’t think you should be allowed to do that!” If you want to say the majority rules in deciding morality, then you really don’t have free will do you! Everyone reading this has been bothered by their concience before. You can fly anywhere in the world, and know nothing of the culture but can be certain you know what not to do (for the most part). We all know the way we should behave and many times make concious decisions to go against what we know to be right. Where does your concience come from? If you say from your environment or upbringing I could show you people that had a very violent and rotten upbringing and decide to live a loving and peaceful life and vice versa. Actually proving the existence of God is not the burden of a Christian. He is only to spread the Good News of Salvation. The burden of proof of the absence of God really lies with the unbeliever. The universe without God doesn’t make sense and, I think, would really be boring. (Einstein made a similar statement - which is a bit scary if you are agnostic)Guys, who put the longing in your heart to rescue the woman in distress? Ladies, who put the longing to rescued in you? Science is only discovering how He does it (and we’re still farting around with stem cells and lasers) Step outside tonight and check a few of the 100 million galaxies, each with 100 million stars. Maybe you can explain to me how a penguin knows to walk 70 miles to an exact location before laying its egg. Our explaination: instinct, it “just knows”. Right! it’s a bird, man. With a brain the size of an acorn! You don’t have to believe that I typed this on a Dell laptop but I did. You don’t have to believe, sadly as most people don’t, that God is, but He is. And everyone reading this has an appointment with Him. It reminds me of that old oil change commercial. You can kneel now, or you will kneel later. And therin lies the true source of the debate. Christians believe in an uncreated, omnipotent, omnipresent, immutable God who created this universe and everything in it and have surrendered their freewill to His will or the unbeliever that puts himself on the throne of his own heart so he can do whatever pleases himself and the world revolves around him. The first one is more believable and far more atractive. BTW, who made the big ball of stuff that was just hanging in the middle of the universe before the big bang? …….(Pssssst, it was my Daddy…..He can be your Daddy too!)
February 5th, 2007 at 6:39 pm
“Actually proving the existence of God is not the burden of a Christian.”
Alright, I was gonna let this slide like all the turkish posts until i got to this little nugget. Anyone who knows anything about the scientific method knows when you propose a theory YOU HAVE TO SHOW EVIDENCE. There’s no evidence for a god, so for us to try to disprove it would be a waste of time since it has yet to be made falsifiable.
February 5th, 2007 at 6:42 pm
Hello Mic,
Your objection to atheism is one that those of us who frequent the site see often. I guess I’ll make it my turn to answer.
Fundamentally, you claim that without God, there can be no morality. Yet there are a couple of ways to rationally derive common morality without appealing to anything supernatural. The basics of one of them go like this:
1. I do not want to be treated in such a manner that I do not suffer.
2. Other people have a similar desire not to suffer.
3. Thus, I should treat others as I want to be treated.
The conclusion, 3, is nothing other than the golden rule. 1 is true a-priory. 2 can be seen through evidence. For instance, others react to stubbing their toes much in the same way that I do. Thus they must have a similar experience of pain and a similar desire to not experience that pain. Otherwise some people would go around purposely stubbing their toes!
There are other rationally-derived ethical systems such as various forms of consequentialism, but for the sake of saving space, I’ll provide just the one.
Also, our conscious needs no supernatural source. It can easily be explained by evolutionary theory. Our conscious is a moral instinct. Having this moral instinct enabled humans to develop trust and to better cooperate. In fact, one of our species best survival traits is our ability to cooperate. Knowing that the person next to me has a moral instinct allows me to know that he/she won’t likely steal from me the moment I turn my back.
“The burden of proof of the absence of God really lies with the unbeliever”
You should take an introduction to logic course. The burden of proof always lies with the person making the positive claim.
You then go one to give a quick argument for the existence of God based on design. But intelligent design arguments fail because of the existence of spontaneous complexity in the universe.
Lastly you give a version of the age-old cosmological argument, that God created the Big Bang. I actually agree with you, in a sense, there. I believe God is the Ultimate Cause of the Big Bang, if not the direct cause. But this still comes FAR short of proving the existence of the Christian God. It only proves the existence of a metaphysically-necessary being.
In short, even as a theist, I utterly reject that moral truth can come from anything other than rationality. Furthermore, I find many aspects of Christian ‘morality’ downright evil. Especially the arbitrary rules about sexuality and its ‘ethic of suffering’.
I’m looking forward to your thoughts.
February 5th, 2007 at 7:46 pm
You never actually addressed several of my initial questions and I will repeat them here.
1. If there is no God as some on this site suggest, what is evil?
2.If I have free will (in the absence of God), and I can be the god of my own life, where is your authority to tell me I’m wrong?
3.If the world is really all about survival of the fittest, or if it makes you more comfortable, natural selection, then I cannot be held liable for preying on the weaker of the species as I’m only doing what is “natural”. Weeding out the weak, sick and the lame for the survival of man.
4. Who is determining “rational” in your rational arguement? Sadists love to suffer. When I look at humanity it seems we must love pain since we inflict so much on each other.
5. A moral instinct? I guess when we have no other answer we pull out an “instinct” card. Instinct, okay God put the software into the computer. I just can’t believe it “popped” into place. I can hear Carl sagan now: “Then one day the ape-men all clasped hands and danced around the fire in their new-found trust(I apolegize if that sounds too sarcastic but I couldn’t resist, I promise to not say anything else about Carl)
6. You said “Furthermore, I find many aspects of Christian ‘morality’ downright evil. Especially the arbitrary rules about sexuality and its ‘ethic of suffering’.” This isn’t rational but editorializing. Familiarize me with the arbitrary rules and the ethic of suffering.
7. My point with the burden of proof could have been explained better. God calls me to tell others about Him. Not to convince people of His existence. (He doesn’t need me to do that)The Holy Spirit does the work in the hearts of men. Truly coming to believe in Jesus as your Lord and Saviour is a change of the heart. No one can be “talked” into it. And those who are pressured into some kind of a forced confession of faith (I regret to admit that this happens)are no more a child of God than you. (No offense intended) I do not feel any pressure to prove the existence of God. The burden of proof is on the unbeliever because if he is wrong, the consequences will be quite disasterous for him (and I believe they will be). I came to this site for the video and was moved to tell you about the One I know. I just want to encourage any who may be searching that He is quite real. I am a former (and quite devout) atheist that has been blown away by God. I am quite secure in my faith and am growing closer with Him daily. I am more than happy to answer your questions.
February 5th, 2007 at 10:39 pm
Hello Mic,
Actually, I did address most of your questions, just indirectly. If you require that I be more direct than so be it.
1. Any act which violates the rationally derived morality.
2. We don’t have free will.
3. Your understanding of evolution is extraordinarily narrow. Survival of the fittest is not the same thing as death of the weakest. As I pointed out in my last post, cooperation makes the human race ‘fit’ for survival. Killing the weaker humans undermines cooperation and our survival.
4. Actually, masochist love pain, sadists love to inflict suffering. A masochist does not suffer from pain, but derives pleasure from pain. And, obviously the reason we cause one another to suffer is lack of adherence to the golden rule. Having a moral system doesn’t ensure adherence.
5. Too funny! I ‘pull out the instinct card’ whereas the moment a religious person does not understand something complicated, it MUST be God’s doing (the pull out the God card). I demonstrated that evolution is, or at least can, be the source of our moral instinct. Your Sagan fantasy only demonstrates the most common fallacy I find amongst evolution deniers. They can’t imagine slow, incremental change. Evolution is never an ‘all the sudden’ thing for any of its changes.
6. Discussing the shortfalls of the Christian ethic would take us too far off topic, I’m afraid. If you really want to discuss that instead, let us fully switch topics.
7. Nope, you imagine that God calls you to tell others about ‘Him’. I can understand why. Imagining such a thing garners a lot of positive feed back from other religious people. That aside, you’re unintentionally misusing the phrase “Burden of Proof”. You are using to indicate that you assume God’s existence and would require proof of Its non-existence (if such a thing were possible). In classic western philosophy it’s used to indicate who must prove their claim to an impartial third party. In our case that third party would be an agnostic (the non-militant kind) and the burden of proof would be on you to convince the agnostic.
Based on your last few sentences, I know I’m not going to able to change your mind. I have found that “being secure in faith” is the same as “I’m going to believe this no matter what evidence or logic is presented.” It saddens me to think that and I hope I am wrong. At the very least, please don’t let others interpret the meaning of the Bible for you. Please, please, please read it with no preconceptions and form your own interpretations. There are far too many people taken advantage of others by claiming they have the only “correct” interpretation. All they are doing is picking and choosing portions of the text that support their power grab.
February 6th, 2007 at 1:05 am
I understand the “classical” usage of the phrase “Burden of proof” and I have been intentionally using it in a different context. I don’t think you “heard” me when I said I don’t feel any pressure from God or anyone to prove His existence. Many people who are unsure of their faith in God (or agnosticism/ atheism for that matter)want someone to reaffirm their decision and feel they must prove their point. You are also missing the point that a decision to follow God is a decision of the heart. Logic is not a part of the equation. Our heads get so much in the way of our relationships with Him. Take prayer for example. It is not logical to us that true prayer works like this: God initiates us to pray by speaking into our hearts what He wants to do so that we pray it out in the faith that He will do it because He told us and then He does it. It doesn’t make a lick of sense but I see it work all the time! You are absolutely correct in saying I will not be moved. Why on earth would you be sad that I have an intimate relationship with the Almighty? The saddest thing I can think of, because I know what it feels like, is that so many people are scared to open up to the possibility that there is something in this universe that is bigger than they are and that they just might not be in control. That they might not be the “center”. It is sad to me to think that Christ died for everyone and that people will not give Him the reward He deserves. Want to know what is sad, check out just in the Bible how many times people tell God they will not follow Him. His love is beyond knowledge, yet we push Him away. Another sad example, He sees what we do to each other out of hate and lust and power. All the sin that goes on out of sight. And He grieves. He gave us freewill to choose Him or to choose us. Look at what our choice has wrought. Thanks for listening.
February 6th, 2007 at 9:25 am
“Logic is not a part of the equation”
You will hence forth be ignored.
February 6th, 2007 at 10:43 am
If you have ever been in love you know that logic plays no part in falling for someone. (unless you are Spock I guess) Do you interview your potential friends to determine the logic in doing things together? Besides, it is possible I speak truth and to ignore me would be illogical, would it not?
February 6th, 2007 at 11:19 am
Ok, I’ll take the bait ;)
Of course, not all decisions should be based on logic. Your example of falling in love or making friends are great examples of this. I DO, however, use logic to determine whether or not to stay with someone I love or who to remain friends with. It’s something I advise everyone to do least they end up in a dead-end marriage because they foolishly believed that ‘love can conquer all’.
These sorts of decisions are very different from making existential claims. Just as love can trick a person into believing that they are in a healthy relationship, emotions can trick people into believing in the Christian God. I would take the analogy one step further. I’d say that many Christians, yourself included, are so in love with the Christian God that you blind yourself to ‘His’ flaws.
My “You will henceforth (correct spelling now) be ignored” was a bit unfairly curt and for that, I apologize. What I meant to convey was that I’m not going to put forth much effort (this post not withstanding) to argue with you since those who deny logic cannot be swayed by it. I was correct in ascertaining that you are of the sort who will believe in certain things regardless of the evidence and reasoning to the contrary.
February 6th, 2007 at 1:46 pm
Thank you for your response! First I want to say that I would refer to this as dialogue, not an arguement. Second, I don’t deny logic entirely, but some things (God included) cannot be defined through logic. Third, I think the opposite (lacking a better term) of your final statement is also true; Those who don’t believe in or deny love cannot be swayed by it. I will leave you with a scripture that says it better than I can.
1 COR 2:14 But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.
Enjoying our talk, Mic
February 6th, 2007 at 2:06 pm
Hello again, Mic,
I’m so accustom to speaking of “argument” in the sense it is used in philosophy and forget that the word has a negative connotation to most people. So a discussion it is.
“I don’t deny logic entirely, but some things (God included) cannot be defined through logic.”
This leads me to ask a question: how does one distinguish between logic is appropriate and when it is not? Also, I have no doubt that you feel a personal relationship with Jesus and/or God. I also have no doubt there are many Muslims who feel the same way about Mohamed and/or Allah. Others have a deep, gut-feeling that there is no God. I’ve known pagans who feel a close emotional connection to Gia, the earth-spirit. There are many, many other examples. If we are to accord ‘feeling’ the same legitimacy as ‘reason’ when establishing truth, how are we to sort out which person’s feeling is most correct?
I realize these are tough questions, but the most important questions are the tough ones.
“Those who don’t believe in or deny love cannot be swayed by it.”
I wish that were true. I don’t believe in love (in the sense that it can overcome all differences and disagreements), but have been far too swayed by it by staying in bad relationships far too long. I’m glad that is in the past. More on topic: I don’t deny love, or any other emotion, and its power to influence us. I only deny that it is a reliable basis on which to make existential claims. A small child can love his invisible friend ‘Bob’ to death, but it doesn’t mean Bob actually exists. Emotions certainly have their place, but it is not in science or metaphysics.
PS I am enjoying this discussion as well.
February 6th, 2007 at 5:01 pm
I see your point about the power of love to sway. Swayed was not the best word to convey my thought. Maybe “convinced” is better in that sentence. I would submit that we, as a culture, have come to regard love only as an emotion and that this is inaccurate. There is a Christian CD called “Love is a Verb” and this is another (some might say more Biblical) way of defining it. I want to say, for the record if you will, that Christianity is not based on “feeling”. I agree with you that truth is not based on what you “feel”. But “God is love” so some emotions are involved in the way we relate/ communicate with Him. My time is short so I will leave you with a question I thought of asking you today.
Why do most people with the belief that there is no God or life after death spend so much time and resource doing things and consuming stuff that shortens the very life they only have one of? That is not very logical.
Anxiously awaiting your reply.
February 6th, 2007 at 5:22 pm
“Why do most people with the belief that there is no God or life after death spend so much time and resource doing things and consuming stuff that shortens the very life they only have one of? That is not very logical.”
What does that mean? do you think we are all crazy party animals that drink, smoke, and have unprotected sex with stranger? Youll listen to anything your fellow christians tell you, wont you?
February 6th, 2007 at 6:01 pm
Hello Mic,
I think that irishthunder (a fellow North Carolinian, if I’m not mistaken) is right. You may be a tad bit misinformed about atheists. They have a tendency to NOT do self-destructive things precisely because they value their one and only life so much. Atheists are the most vilified group in America because of religious propaganda that portrays atheism as synonymous with an immoral lifestyle. In fact, there is evidence to the opposite on a whole-society level. I know your time was short, so perhaps you would be willing to clarify exactly how you came about your belief that atheism = self-destructive when you have more of it.
If you are willing, I’d also ask you to clarify your definition of love and why your definition allows for it to be the basis on which one can establish the validity of the Christian faith (as opposed to any other faith). I sorry to admit that I don’t quite get what you were trying to say.
I hope to hear from you when you have more time!
February 6th, 2007 at 6:49 pm
You know, I never thought of it that way but maybe it is true. I am an Atheist. I also don’t drink, smoke, or do drugs. Could it be THAT is the reason I don’t do those things when SO many people around me do (at least one, some poor folks all of them)? Because I KNOW that this is the one and only existence I will have? I am going to have to think on that one a bit.
February 6th, 2007 at 10:02 pm
First, This is not true - “Youll listen to anything your fellow christians tell you, wont you?”
Second - I apologize to anyone that may have been offended in my last comment. That was not the intent. I’m sorry.
Michael says “You know, I never thought of it that way but maybe it is true. I am an Atheist. I also don’t drink, smoke, or do drugs. Could it be THAT is the reason I don’t do those things when SO many people around me do” My question rephrased is: Who are these “SO many” people and what’s up with that?
Third - Is sidfaiwu your actual name and if so, could you pronounce it please? I would like a better “picture” of who I’m talking to.
February 6th, 2007 at 10:48 pm
Hey Mic,
Sid Faiwu is not my real name. It is a pseudonym that I have been using for about 20 years. Sid is pronounced exactly as it looks. Faiwu is pronounced ‘FAY-woo’. It rhymes with ‘PAY’ and ‘do’.
I prefer to maintain my thin veil of online anonymity, so I won’t give my real name. If anyone is REALLY curious, it can be determined with only minimal research, but I humbly request that no one does this.
Since this probably doesn’t provide that great of a picture of who I am, I’ll provide some basic demographic data:
Caucasian male, approx. 30 years of age. Married, no children. Has a Masters degree in applied mathematics and works as financial analyst for a major US bank.
Also, relevant to the theme of this site, I was raised as a souther baptist (but in the Midwest), but rejected that religion in my early 20’s and eventually became a Deist.
February 6th, 2007 at 11:04 pm
“First, This is not true - “Youll listen to anything your fellow christians tell you, wont you?””
If thats not true then please tell me where you got that idea. I have a good amount of atheist and christian friends, guess which are the ones that drink 4+ nights a week, randomly hookup with strangers , and smoke pot? Now im no angel( i play college rugby, it comes with the territory), but i make a point not do anything too crazy.
February 7th, 2007 at 11:52 am
Morning Sid, Irish,
It could be that God has used you to shed some light on something for me. Maybe these folks are part of the 85% or so of America who “claim” Christianity but, as some people say, they are just not “practicing”. It could be some of these people are “sitting on the fence” adhereing to no discernable belief system other than “self”. I’ll have to pray about this.
A question for you Sid:
You say you are a Deist. My understanding of Deism is that you believe God put things in motion and is now in observation mode. I realize this definition is simplified but is this more or less accurate and if so, why did you reach this conclusion?
FYI
I am Caucasian male, 40, married, 4 kids, (22,19,17,16), retired Army NCO, Associates degree, webmaster. Pertinent to this site: Unbeliever/atheist until I was 30, when I started investigating the possibility of God and eventually accepted Jesus as my Saviour. I promptly returned to living life the way I wanted to until God really grabbed me in 2003 and I made Him Lord (He won’t be Saviour if He can’t be Lord). Baptised in the Holy Ghost in 2005, it is no longer I but Christ in me.
Thanks for telling me about yourself, I won’t dig any further. How about you, Irish?
Later, Mic
February 7th, 2007 at 12:57 pm
In case your wondering irishthunder is NOT my real name. Im 19 and a college student majoring in computer and electrical engineering, born and raised in North Carolina(we gotta chill sometime Sid). I was lucky enough to have open-minded parents that let me explore religions, they’re methodist and are very active in the church. Im pretty active with it too when it comes to the volunteer work they do. But as far as faith goes, whenever i went to church i felt i was just going through the motions, i thought there was something wrong with me. After spending a lot of time with my pastor, friends and a few counselors, I finally realized that there was no way i could ever be a christian.
February 7th, 2007 at 1:58 pm
Hello irishthunder,
Which college? The closest major campus to me is UNCC.
Hello Mic,
I would be glad to tell you how I came to Deism.
First a side note: I apologize to all the regular readers of ReligiousFreaks who have heard this from me multiple times now. If and when the forum is brought back, I’ll make a permanent link with this info that I’ll simply reference in the future.
I actually became a Deist long before I even knew what Deism is. After rejecting Christianity (a process that took years in it’s own right) as being too inconsistent and, under common interpretations, immoral, I began a search for truth. I experimented with other religions, eventually finding all of them equally flawed. Eventually, I ended up taking an into to philosophy course at the university I was attending. I was hooked. One of the first things truths I discovered was that reason is the only reliable tool to uncover further truth. I have been studying philosophy on and off ever since.
As is inevitably in studying western philosophy, I came across several rational arguments for the existence of God. Almost all of which have highly credible critiques rendering them flawed. One has withstood all critiques, in my opinion, at that is the modal version of the cosmological argument. A very basic way of phrasing the argument is that the fact that there is anything exists at all rather than nothing at all requires an explanation. The only explanation is that ultimately, everything depends on a metaphysically necessary thing. “God” is an appropriate title to bestow on such an object.
Equipped with the modal version of the Cosmological Argument, I transfered from a post-Christian agnostic to a theist, though my concept of God was very simple. In simple terms all I knew for certain was that God created everything (It is omnific). I don’t know if It is sexed, good, evil, intelligent, has a personality, or human-like in any way.
Several month back, I was asked to write an article for ReligiousFreaks about whether or not America is a Christian nation (I can link the article if you are interested). In the process of researching said article, I was surprised to learn that several founding fathers had very similar beliefs (Thomas Jefferson, Benjamin Franklin, Thomas Paine, Ethan Allen, etc.) and they called their belief system Deism.
From this I learned that Deism is belief in God based on reason and evidence. It was born out of the European Enlightenment. Some early European Deist of note include Adam Smith, David Hume, and Voltaire. Rationality is the prime concern of the religion. It also emphasizes self-reliance, since God does not intervene in the affairs of man (there are some Deist who do believe in an interventionist God).
I hope this helps!
February 7th, 2007 at 2:26 pm
Sid,
Thanks for the explanation. Do you have a reason to be on a discussion board like this or do you just enjoy the company?;) What I mean is, are you attempting to convince others to adopt your beliefs or are you seeking truth wherever it may lead or just like exchanging ideas or what?
Mic
February 7th, 2007 at 2:57 pm
Well, there are several reasons I frequent this site. I can break them down into a few categories: solidarity and company, intellectual stimulation, information gathering, and entertainment.
My emphasis on the importance of rationality and evidence give me a lot in common with the atheists who also frequent this site. I also share their condemnation of revealed religions. Furthermore, I have been alarmed at the rise of political power of the fundamentalist elements here in the US. Religion + politics inevitably leads to conflict and violence. Another reason I enjoy the company of atheists and agnostics is that I find them to be, by and large, intelligent, thoughtful, and interesting people. For those reasons, I am here for the solidarity and the company.
I also love to exchange ideas. There are enough religious contributors to this site that I can engage in interesting debates and/or philosophical arguments, such as the one we were having. The atheists also keep me honest about my beliefs. They often critique my reasons for believing in God and in doing so, they ensure that I’m not making assumptions about the nature of God that the Cosmological Argument does not permit me to make. Sometimes, a story or a comment will make me think about tough issues that I had not considered before.
Information and news is another reason I come here. One of my main causes is fighting fundamentalism, since it is the antithesis of reason and evidence. This site provides me with relevant news about fundamentalism as well as tools and ideas to fight the spread of said affront to common sense.
The final reason I come here is shear entertainment. Many of the stories are quite humorous as are the comments.
It’s my turn to ask you a question, Mic, and try to be as unbiased and honest as possible. If you grew up and/or lived in a non-Christian culture, would you still have become a Christian? I know these sort of ‘what ifs’ are tough to answer, but I really have to wonder when a vast majority of religious people end up with the same religion as their parents and/or culture. I would ask you what the reasons are that you believe Christianity, but from your previous comments, it seems that you do so ultimately because it feels right. Please correct me if I’m wrong.
February 7th, 2007 at 3:26 pm
The first question is a “what if” that has so many realistic variables (I know you know what I mean) that the best, and most honest answer is “I don’t know”. On the contrary, I don’t follow Christ because it feels right. I follow Christ because I have had a real encounter with Him. I know that is hard for you to fathom, much less believe, but it is true. I can understand your doubt as to the validity of many Christians by the lack of a credible witness of Christ in their lives. Unfortunately, many of these people are doing exactly what you say, adopting Christianity because their parents did. Not because they have had a true encounter with Christ. Then, when they get out on their own, they “fall away” because they never were “there”. Some keep going to church because they have friends there or to network or to make themselves feel better. Billy Graham even estimates only about 5% of all the people who answer the alter calls in his crusades actually come to Christ. That being said, there are many people living for Christ in the world. Gotta run, Mic
February 7th, 2007 at 3:40 pm
5% huh? would that be one of the 73% of statistics that are made up on the spot? =)
I’d like to hear more about your encounter with jesus. Was it an interpretation of things that happened in your life? Was it some kind of trance in which you actually saw him? Or was it one of those times where you “felt” it among a very large group of people undergoing what HAS been explained as mass psychosis?
How can you be SO sure that what you experienced was really jesus or w/e you believe, when there are so many rational explainations that can explain it?
While we’re on the topic I have another question. You mentioned crusades… so, do you actually believe in faith healing by con artists like Benny Hinn? If you do, do yourself a favor and what this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W4t9APdSG30).