"Give me your paycheck, your allowance, Your hard earned money yearning to be wasted, The crisp cash of your teeming wallet. Send these, the ignorant, tempest-tost to me, I lift my offering plate beside the church door!"
These are the words that came to mind when I saw this ghastly Christian monstrasity. This 72ft, quarter-million dollar freak show is compliments of the World Overcomers Outreach Ministries Church in Memphis. But they couldn’t have done it alone. All of this money came from their 12,000 members in the community who apparently couldn’t find a better use for it like poverty, drug abuse, etc. But never fear, Pastor Alton R. Williams faced the 72-foot statue and blessed the city of Memphis against disease, crime, intolerance and poverty.
Yea, that should do the trick, a good ole blessing and Jesus will take care of the rest. How ignorant can people be to waste their money of something as stupid as this. I know it’s the Bible Belt, but this is ridiculous. It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to see this. Evelyn Douglass, 11, said she takes the long way home to avoid seeing the "big green thing"."The Statue of Liberty is a symbol of the United States of America. The cross represents a specific religion," Douglass said. "It’s not right that they are mixing the two. That church is trashing the meaning of America."
Well said sister! It’s no wonder that other countries can’t take us serious.
Shout out to Mike for sending me this one!
UPDATE: Just noticed that Rickler submitted this to Digg. So DIGG IT!
Related posts:
- Flying Spaghetti Monster Statue At Tennessee Courthouse
- One Man’s Nightmare In The Bible Belt
- Angry Jesus Spews Sparks From His Eyes!
- Catholic Priests Takin’ Your Loot
- Jesus Stood Idle As Man Nearly Dies
July 6th, 2006 at 9:07 am
The first time I saw this I honestly thought it was a joke. Not only do these people disgust me, the downright scare me. Why not take that quarter MILLION and actually do something positive with it?
If a man is starving, don’t give him a fish. Teach him to fish and give him a damn fishing rod!
July 6th, 2006 at 9:44 am
If this ghastly horror ever gets moved to within 100 miles of Manhatten, I’ll ***NOTE THAT THIS PORTION OF THE POST HAS BEEN REMOVED SO THAT SIDFAIWU DOESN’T END UP ON A LIST IN THE DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND INSECURITY***!!!
July 6th, 2006 at 10:59 am
Oi.
I am a christian. I grew up and now live in Oklahoma. I graduated from a Baptist university. I go to church every Sunday. And yet, this sort of thing gets me right pissed.
Gasmonso is absolutely right; this was an absolute, unmitigated, irresponsible waste of money. They can’t honestly expect me to believe that there aren’t any members of their church that could have used a financial helping-hand to get out of a rough spot. They can’t honestly expect me to believe that there are no homeless shelters nearby that could have used a quarter million dollars to actually help people. They can’t honestly expect me to believe that the best use of a quarter million dollars was to erect a monument to their own Goddamned hubris.
July 6th, 2006 at 12:29 pm
Yikes.
July 6th, 2006 at 12:36 pm
The only positive thing I see here is that the people who contributed actually had a choice. I mean, it’s not like they are paying taxes to a government who wastes the money, even if they didn’t vote for that government…
July 6th, 2006 at 6:44 pm
TY for the props! :)
July 6th, 2006 at 7:42 pm
I was brought up a catholic.
I’m british.
it’s all a load of bollocks, “imho”
waste of bloody money in my opinion, license all the drugs and all the prosititution and give them free health care.
fools.
lol
July 7th, 2006 at 2:35 pm
I wish I could say I have never seen a more blatant waste of church dollars but I have. Here in Corpus Christi there is a statue of Christ astride the bow of a boat. The statue is done in bronze by an amazing artist and the base is marble. The original costs were a good bit less than the green lady here but repairs have been insane. You see it is located on Ocean Drive right by the best road to get home from the downtown night clubs. Every few months someone hits it and it has to be repaired.
July 7th, 2006 at 2:47 pm
MichaelC, I believe this is the cash waster that you speak of…
http://www.photographyblog.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=23155
July 7th, 2006 at 5:00 pm
mike…just this…Hell YES!! Halleluia, a voice of reason at last! Now if only we can get the puritanical fools on the Hill to reach this conclusion too…I know its not going to happen (or at least not without a Clockwork Orange-esque re-education program) but its a nice thought.
July 13th, 2006 at 8:10 pm
Regarding “It is I, Jesus in the boat…” do you think that they considered for the sexual connotations before throwing their cash at that project?
July 14th, 2006 at 5:47 am
yeah, lets instead follow gasmonso’s example, who DOES donate all his money to the poor and drug-addicted.. oh wait..
July 16th, 2006 at 5:43 pm
Insaner, that is just an assinine response.
Here in Jacksonville, Florida, the big barrel of christians church (First Baptist of Jacksonville, I believe it is called) built a LIGHTHOUSE in the middle of the city. I should get a picture and send it to you. It is hilarious. They also built a couple of huge parking garages right in the middle of the city area. No idea why their megachurch had to be in the middle of the city.
July 17th, 2006 at 4:17 pm
I think this was a great idea. I attend the church and think that our pastor did a wonderful thing that we (the congregation) were in agreement in. He used it as a reminder that America was built on Christian values. I recently saw that since the statue has been built many people have come to know and accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior. The money part is also something that is an excuse for people to complain. Look at our government and Hurricane Katrina- need I say more? Our government ISN’T giving money to the poor and trying to get those unfortunate people back into good homes. However, this church has given countless contributions to their community and city. Plus, if one soul is saved, then it is worth it! The church is trying to be a positive influence in the community. The lady mentioned above, Evelyn Douglas, recently came to our church and told us that she had a misunderstanding and wanted to apologize. She even stated that she would FIGHT for it to STAY! I think that before we criticize others, we need to look at the WHOLE picture. And that’s my two cents on the matter.
July 18th, 2006 at 9:01 am
Hello Madicent7,
The one major fallacy in your comment is that the American government was not founded on ‘Christian’ values. Most of the founding fathers where not Christian and most abhored organized religion in general. Thomas Jefferson, Benjamin Franklin, John Locke, Thomas Paine, Ethan Allen, and possibly even George Washington were Deists. Deism is based on a natural religion as opposed to a revealed religion like Christianity. The truths of Deism are discovered through reason and not through authority (like the Bible). Another way of putting it is that America’s founders were intellects. Modern American Christianity is nothing short of anti-intellectual. Thus modern Christianity is in opposition to what this country’s government was founded on.
Also, you state that the government isn’t giving money to the poor. Last I checked, we still have welfare, Medicaid, HUD, and many other programs to assist the poor. Anyway, defending a potentially immoral action by saying ‘but those guys are worse’ does not negate the immorality of said action even if the statement is true. It would be as if I had just beat the crap out of a stranger and defended my actions by saying my neighbor killed some last week. While I do think that building that thing was a waste of money (and thus immoral), I will defend your churches right to build it. Fundamentalists take note: You can consider an action immoral (abortion, homosexuality, etc.) and still support the basic American freedom to choose.
Now if you honestly believe that converting to Christianity is actually saving someone from God’s eternal torture chamber and if that monstrosity actually did convert at least one person then you are correct that it was worth the expense. But you must realize that you might be incorrect (i.e. there is no Hell) and that ‘if’ is a big if.
July 18th, 2006 at 10:54 pm
Sidfaiwu:
I stand corrected in my statement saying that the government was not providing for the poor. Sorry about that. But, I still stand in my beliefs that America was founded on Christian values. If you do some research on quotes and writings of our founding fathers, then you will find that they had a strong belief in Jesus Christ. John Adams, a major contributer to creating the America that we now have, once said, “The general principles on which the Fathers achieved independence, were . . . the general principles of Christianity.” Thomas Johnson, who many consider a deist, once said, “The reason that Christianity is the best friend of government is because Christianity is the only religion that changes the heart.” So, I have to say that your statement that the United States was built on Deist values was a fallacy and completly untrue.
Yes, I do believe in Jesus Christ, and yes I do believe that many Christians “pick and choose” what to believe and what not to believe. That is not how all Christians are. One bad apple spoils the bunch. I respect your opinion about Christianity, but I do, however, hope that you feel differently about the Statue of Liberation.
July 19th, 2006 at 10:08 am
Hello Madicent7,
Thanks for responding. I think we’ve started a very interesting discussion. You bring up some really good points and even pointed out an error I made. Unfortunately I’m really busy at work today and don’t have time to write a response worthy of your rebuttal yet. A response is forthcoming though, I promise.
Have a good day!
July 19th, 2006 at 4:26 pm
Alright, now I’ve got a little time.
Now I have to clarify my statements. When I said that the American government was not founded on Christian values, I was mistaken. Certainly, the founders did practice what they called Christian values, but what those values were and how they came to practice them is not only very different from much (not all) of modern Christianity, but in opposition to fundamentalist Christianity.
The hallmark of any fundamentalism is to take as complete authority the most traditional interpretations. In Christianity’s case this is a literal interpretation of the Bible complete with supernatural occurrences. This usually coincides with complete trust in religious authorities. Thus their values are either taken on authority from a priest/pastor/reverend/etc. or from revelation through the Bible. Fundamentalist usual reject any deviation from these values.
To contrast, the founders approached religion with reason and rationality. Many, including Jefferson, were Deists. This is not to say that they were not Christians (but as we will see soon, many fundamentalists will say they don’t qualify as true Christians). Deism is, in fact, not entirely incompatible with Christianity. They believed that all religious truths, including values, can be derived through the use of logic and observation. As you may remember from your American history courses, the authors of the Declaration of Independence were heavily influenced by John Locke. He argued, logically, that all humans have the same unalienable rights. These rights coincided closely with many traditional Christian values. But noticed that they agreed with Christian values not because the Bible says they should, but because their own reason lead them, like Jesus, to accept those values. Also, these values taught them to reject the authority of the British monarchy.
Look up information about Jefferson’s Bible. Thomas Jefferson attempted to write a version of the New Testament the excluded all supernatural phenomena. Thus no miracles and more importantly, no resurrection (this last point is why many modern Christians would claim that he cannot be Christian) because those pieces do not stand to reason. What he had left was an account of the life of Jesus and his moral teachings. These constituted the Christian values that influenced the formation of the American government. He believed that the supernatural parts of the Bible were added by religious authority so that they can enhance their authority by claiming only they can understand these ‘miraculous’ happenings. Thus, like me, Jefferson would have been disgusted by a symbol of freedom (the Statue of Liberty) that is apparent to the reason and a symbol of supernatural happenings (the empty cross implying a miraculous resurrection) and revealed authority (the Ten Commandments).
Clearly they did base their new government on ALL Christian values. This is most obvious in the freedom of religion. Our government will accept any religion (in theory) where as the Bible states clearly that no one shall place any other god before Him. Also, the traditional methods of Christian punishment were rejected by the founders. There was to be no legal public stoning for heresy, for example. Jefferson went so far as to denounce the Old Testament as too violent.
Based on this more complete explanation, please allow me to restate: America’s government was not founded on fundamentalist Christian values. It was founded on Christian values that coincide with values that any person can arrive at through the use of their reason. The government was formed at the height of the age of reason and at a time when authority of all types was being question, distrusted, and rejected. This is in complete opposition to the fundamentalist movement that trusts religious authority and believe in a literal interpretation of the Bible even when such an interpretation defies reason.
July 19th, 2006 at 4:34 pm
Here is a Jefferson quote that clearly speaks to his Christianity: “To the corruptions of Christianity I am, indeed, opposed; but not to the genuine precepts of Jesus himself. I am a Christian, in the only sense in which he wished any one to be; sincerely attached to his doctrines, in preference to all others; ascribing to himself every human excellence; and believing he never claimed any other.” In other words, he considered himself a Christian because he was a follwer of Christ’s teachings but did not believe that Jesus was divine. Furthermore he believed that Jesus never intended to be considered divine.
Here is another of his quotes clearly identifying his Deist beliefs: “Jews. Their system was Deism; that is, the belief in one only God. But their ideas of him and of his attributes were degrading and injurious. He” (Jesus) “corrected the Deism of the Jews, confirming them in their belief of one only God, and giving them juster notions of his attributes and government.”
July 19th, 2006 at 8:51 pm
I agree with you that America was not built on FUNDAMENTALIST Christian values AND that Thomas Jefferson had his doubts about the supernatural factors of Christianity. However, I still stand by the fact that America was founded on Christian (whether Fundamentalist or not) values. The historical founding documents of America all have at least one reference to God (with a capital “G”, which is associated ONLY with Christianity), which means that they did build this nation on Christianity. Now, if they PERSONALLY followed or did not follow or accept Jesus is not the point. The basis of our government was supported by views in the Bible. Now, you say that they just used verses that were good “reasoning” that anyone could have come up with. But, if that was the case then why didn’t they use statements from the Koran or some other religion? Why did they choose Bible verses, instead of just putting them into a summarized statement? The fact that they used THE WORD OF GOD is all the evidence I need to prove that America is a Christian nation.
Not only did the founders put their faith in writing, but also in action. Every Congress meeting begins with a prayer from a Christian minister who prays to Jesus. There is no argument in saying that our lawmakers don’t put God first, even today.
The initial reason for having the Statue of Liberation was to start a buzz. If the Statue of Liberation had never been built, would I be talking to you? Most likely, not. But, because it is such an unordinary thing it causes people to talk about Jesus. It causes people to evaluate their relationships with God, even if one doesn’t believe in Him. It has caused me with the oppurtunity to talk about Christ, and I have enjoyed it. I thank you for your debate, but I am not sitting here taking time out of my day just to discuss a statue. There is so much more to it than a statue. It is a symbol (not an idol) of how Christ has redeemed me and you from sin, and how we are free to live in Christ with peace and joy. Our church is not shoving Jesus down anyone’s throat, but we ARE trying to bring more people to Christ. I know that you are probably shaking your head thinking that I am ignorant and, as the website states, a RELIGIOUS FREAK. I am not at all, however, some Christians are. But, I would just like you to give Jesus a chance. Just one chance. What will it hurt? If Jesus doesn’t do anything for you after you put your trust in Him, then you can have a reason NOT to believe. All you have to do is confess that Jesus is Lord and that he died for our sins, and rose again. I am not trying to MAKE you do anything, but I would really like for you to consider it. You have a wonderful talent of writing and a profound knowledge of history and I know that you would be useful in the Kingdom of God. Please don’t look at this with a closed heart, but with an open mind.
July 20th, 2006 at 9:03 am
Hello again Mendicant,
Since you don’t have time to discuss this anymore I’ll try to be brief and I won’t expect a reply. Again, the nature of Christianity at the time for the intellects who framed our government was rationally based, not authoritative or revealed. They didn’t use quotes from the Bible, for example, simple because it was the Bible, it’s because that quote from the Bible (a culturally understood icon) supported the logical rights of all people. The Qu’ran was not used because it had little to no meaning for the populous. Also, all monotheistic religions use a capital for their language’s word for god. Modern Jews use ‘God’, formally ‘Yahweh’. Arabic speakers us ‘Allah’. There is nothing particular to Christianity about capitalizing the one deity.
As to Christian prayer starting every session of congress, I cannot speak. If it’s true, I find it very disturbing. My guess is that it was a tradition started by the member of congress themselves. Not a mandate written into a founding document.
If the goal in building the statue was to create a buzz it worked. I certainly didn’t think it was an idol. I can’t imagine Christians bending down and worshiping it the way Muslims worship Mecca. Also, I certainly don’t think you are ignorant or a freak. You rationally defended your position with knowledge and ability and a freak would have already condemned me to hell for disagreeing.
I think, though, that we are not going to change each others minds, but at least it gave us both something interesting to talk about. I do approach this topic with an open mind. I did give Christianity a chance (for about 4 or 5 years) but rejected much of it as irrational. I also came to believe many of the Church’s teachings were down right immoral. I would ask you to also approach some topics with an open mind. In particular I would ask that you don’t expect everyone to believe the Bible is the word of God. Also, don’t take what the Bible says from authority. Read and decide for yourself. In particular, why do Christian leaders keep trying to get Old Testament morality legislated when Jesus himself told us that we are no longer under Old Testament law?
I’ve enjoyed the discussion and wish you well.
July 30th, 2006 at 11:50 pm
The Statue of Liberation through Christ was made to stir up controversy. Apparently it is working, because everyone knows in their hearts that America was founded on christianity, and that Jesus Christ is the world’s saviour. How do I know this, because there is valid proof that our founding fathers wanted our country to continue on this path. Now that we have fallen away from our christian values, there are many things that are going on in our country that we do not have control over, because God is angry. We as Americans, need to stand up for our Christian beliefs, if we want to see our country flourish.
Have a Blessed Day!
Proof:
http://www.eadshome.com/QuotesoftheFounders.htm
Early Years
The First Charter of Virginia (granted by King James I, on April 10, 1606)
• We, greatly commending, and graciously accepting of, their Desires for the Furtherance of so noble a Work, which may, by the Providence of Almighty God, hereafter tend to the Glory of his Divine Majesty, in propagating of Christian Religion to such People, as yet live in Darkness and miserable Ignorance of the true Knowledge and Worship of God…
Instructions for the Virginia Colony (1606)
Lastly and chiefly the way to prosper and achieve good success is to make yourselves all of one mind for the good of your country and your own, and to serve and fear God the Giver of all Goodness, for every plantation which our Heavenly Father hath not planted shall be rooted out.
William Bradford
• wrote that they [the Pilgrims] were seeking:
• 1) “a better, and easier place of livingâ€; and that “the children of the group were being drawn away by evil examples into extravagance and dangerous courses [in Holland]“
• 2) “The great hope, and for the propagating and advancing the gospel of the kingdom of Christ in those remote parts of the world”
The Mayflower Compact (authored by William Bradford) 1620 | Signing of the Mayflower painting | Picture of Compact
“Having undertaken, for the glory of God, and advancement of the Christian faith, and honor of our King and Country, a voyage to plant the first colony in the northern parts of Virginia, do by these presents solemnly and mutually, in the presence of God, and one of another, covenant and combine our selves together…â€
______________________________________________________________________
John Adams and John Hancock:
We Recognize No Sovereign but God, and no King but Jesus! [April 18, 1775]
John Adams:
“ The general principles upon which the Fathers achieved independence were the general principals of Christianity… I will avow that I believed and now believe that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God.â€
• “[July 4th] ought to be commemorated as the day of deliverance by solemn acts of devotion to God Almighty.â€
–John Adams in a letter written to Abigail on the day the Declaration was approved by Congress
“We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion. Avarice, ambition, revenge, or gallantry, would break the strongest cords of our Constitution as a whale goes through a net. Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.” –October 11, 1798
“I have examined all religions, as well as my narrow sphere, my straightened means, and my busy life, would allow; and the result is that the Bible is the best Book in the world. It contains more philosophy than all the libraries I have seen.” December 25, 1813 letter to Thomas Jefferson
“Without Religion this World would be Something not fit to be mentioned in polite Company, I mean Hell.” [John Adams to Thomas Jefferson, April 19, 1817] | photographs of this letter: Page 2…. page 1…. page 3… page 4
…….click here to see this quote in its context and to see John Adams’ quotes taken OUT of context!
Samuel Adams: | Portrait of Sam Adams | Powerpoint presentation on John, John Quincy, and Sam Adams
“ He who made all men hath made the truths necessary to human happiness obvious to all… Our forefathers opened the Bible to all.†[ "American Independence," August 1, 1776. Speech delivered at the State House in Philadelphia]
“ Let divines and philosophers, statesmen and patriots, unite their endeavors to renovate the age by impressing the minds of men with the importance of educating their little boys and girls, inculcating in the minds of youth the fear and love of the Deity… and leading them in the study and practice of the exalted virtues of the Christian system.†[October 4, 1790]
John Quincy Adams:
• “Why is it that, next to the birthday of the Savior of the world, your most joyous and most venerated festival returns on this day [the Fourth of July]?” “Is it not that, in the chain of human events, the birthday of the nation is indissolubly linked with the birthday of the Savior? That it forms a leading event in the progress of the Gospel dispensation? Is it not that the Declaration of Independence first organized the social compact on the foundation of the Redeemer’s mission upon earth? That it laid the cornerstone of human government upon the first precepts of Christianity”?
–1837, at the age of 69, when he delivered a Fourth of July speech at Newburyport, Massachusetts.
“The Law given from Sinai [The Ten Commandments] was a civil and municipal as well as a moral and religious code.â€
John Quincy Adams. Letters to his son. p. 61
Elias Boudinot: | Portrait of Elias Boudinot
“ Be religiously careful in our choice of all public officers . . . and judge of the tree by its fruits.â€
Charles Carroll - signer of the Declaration of Independence | Portrait of Charles Carroll
” Without morals a republic cannot subsist any length of time; they therefore who are decrying the Christian religion, whose morality is so sublime and pure…are undermining the solid foundation of morals, the best security for the duration of free governments.” [Source: To James McHenry on November 4, 1800.]
Benjamin Franklin: | Portrait of Ben Franklin
“ God governs in the affairs of man. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without his notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without His aid? We have been assured in the Sacred Writings that except the Lord build the house, they labor in vain that build it. I firmly believe this. I also believe that, without His concurring aid, we shall succeed in this political building no better than the builders of Babel†–Constitutional Convention of 1787 | original manuscript of this speech
“In the beginning of the contest with Britain, when we were sensible of danger, we had daily prayers in this room for Divine protection. Our prayers, Sir, were heard, and they were graciously answered… do we imagine we no longer need His assistance?†[Constitutional Convention, Thursday June 28, 1787]
In Benjamin Franklin’s 1749 plan of education for public schools in Pennsylvania, he insisted that schools teach “the excellency of the Christian religion above all others, ancient or modern.”
In 1787 when Franklin helped found Benjamin Franklin University, it was dedicated as “a nursery of religion and learning, built on Christ, the Cornerstone.”
Alexander Hamilton:
• Hamilton began work with the Rev. James Bayard to form the Christian Constitutional Society to help spread over the world the two things which Hamilton said made America great:
(1) Christianity
(2) a Constitution formed under Christianity.
“The Christian Constitutional Society, its object is first: The support of the Christian religion. Second: The support of the United States.â€
On July 12, 1804 at his death, Hamilton said, “I have a tender reliance on the mercy of the Almighty, through the merits of the Lord Jesus Christ. I am a sinner. I look to Him for mercy; pray for me.â€
“For my own part, I sincerely esteem it [the Constitution] a system which without the finger of God, never could have been suggested and agreed upon by such a diversity of interests.” [1787 after the Constitutional Convention]
“I have carefully examined the evidences of the Christian religion, and if I was sitting as a juror upon its authenticity I would unhesitatingly give my verdict in its favor. I can prove its truth as clearly as any proposition ever submitted to the mind of man.”
John Hancock: | Portrait of John Hancock
• “In circumstances as dark as these, it becomes us, as Men and Christians, to reflect that whilst every prudent measure should be taken to ward off the impending judgments, …at the same time all confidence must be withheld from the means we use; and reposed only on that God rules in the armies of Heaven, and without His whole blessing, the best human counsels are but foolishness… Resolved; …Thursday the 11th of May…to humble themselves before God under the heavy judgments felt and feared, to confess the sins that have deserved them, to implore the Forgiveness of all our transgressions, and a spirit of repentance and reformation …and a Blessing on the … Union of the American Colonies in Defense of their Rights [for which hitherto we desire to thank Almighty God]…That the people of Great Britain and their rulers may have their eyes opened to discern the things that shall make for the peace of the nation…for the redress of America’s many grievances, the restoration of all her invaded liberties, and their security to the latest generations.
“A Day of Fasting, Humiliation and Prayer, with a total abstinence from labor and recreation. Proclamation on April 15, 1775″
Patrick Henry: | Portrait of Patrick Henry
“Orator of the Revolution.”
• This is all the inheritance I can give my dear family. The religion of Christ can give them one which will make them rich indeed.â€
—The Last Will and Testament of Patrick Henry
“It cannot be emphasized too clearly and too often that this nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religion, but on the gospel of Jesus Christ. For this very reason, peoples of other faiths have been afforded asylum, prosperity, and freedom of worship here.†[May 1765 Speech to the House of Burgesses]
“The Bible is worth all other books which have ever been printed.â€
John Jay: | Portrait of John Jay
“ Providence has given to our people the choice of their rulers, and it is the duty, as well as the privilege and interest of our Christian nation to select and prefer Christians for their rulers.†Source: October 12, 1816. The Correspondence and Public Papers of John Jay, Henry P. Johnston, ed., (New York: Burt Franklin, 1970), Vol. IV, p. 393.
“Whether our religion permits Christians to vote for infidel rulers is a question which merits more consideration than it seems yet to have generally received either from the clergy or the laity. It appears to me that what the prophet said to Jehoshaphat about his attachment to Ahab ["Shouldest thou help the ungodly and love them that hate the Lord?" 2 Chronicles 19:2] affords a salutary lesson.†[The Correspondence and Public Papers of John Jay, 1794-1826, Henry P. Johnston, editor (New York: G.P. Putnam's Sons, 1893), Vol. IV, p.365]
Thomas Jefferson:
“ The doctrines of Jesus are simple, and tend to all the happiness of man.â€
“Of all the systems of morality, ancient or modern which have come under my observation, none appears to me so pure as that of Jesus.â€
“I am a real Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus.”
“God who gave us life gave us liberty. And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are a gift from God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just, and that His justice cannot sleep forever.†(excerpts are inscribed on the walls of the Jefferson Memorial in the nations capital) [Source: Merrill . D. Peterson, ed., Jefferson Writings, (New York: Literary Classics of the United States, Inc., 1984), Vol. IV, p. 289. From Jefferson’s Notes on the State of Virginia, Query XVIII, 1781.]
Samuel Johnston:
• “It is apprehended that Jews, Mahometans (Muslims), pagans, etc., may be elected to high offices under the government of the United States. Those who are Mahometans, or any others who are not professors of the Christian religion, can never be elected to the office of President or other high office, [unless] first the people of America lay aside the Christian religion altogether, it may happen. Should this unfortunately take place, the people will choose such men as think as they do themselves.
[Elliot’s Debates, Vol. IV, pp 198-199, Governor Samuel Johnston, July 30, 1788 at the North Carolina Ratifying Convention]
James Madison
“ We’ve staked our future on our ability to follow the Ten Commandments with all of our heart.â€
“We have staked the whole future of American civilization, not upon the power of government, far from it. We’ve staked the future of all our political institutions upon our capacity…to sustain ourselves according to the Ten Commandments of God.†[1778 to the General Assembly of the State of Virginia]
• I have sometimes thought there could not be a stronger testimony in favor of religion or against temporal enjoyments, even the most rational and manly, than for men who occupy the most honorable and gainful departments and [who] are rising in reputation and wealth, publicly to declare the unsatisfactoriness [of temportal enjoyments] by becoming fervent advocates in the cause of Christ; and I wish you may give in your evidence in this way.
Letter by Madison to William Bradford (September 25, 1773)
• In 1812, President Madison signed a federal bill which economically aided the Bible Society of Philadelphia in its goal of the mass distribution of the Bible.
“ An Act for the relief of the Bible Society of Philadelphia†Approved February 2, 1813 by Congress
“It is the mutual duty of all to practice Christian forbearance, love, and charity toward each other.â€
• A watchful eye must be kept on ourselves lest, while we are building ideal monuments of renown and bliss here, we neglect to have our names enrolled in the Annals of Heaven. [Letter by Madison to William Bradford [urging him to make sure of his own salvation] November 9, 1772]
At the Constitutional Convention of 1787, James Madison proposed the plan to divide the central government into three branches. He discovered this model of government from the Perfect Governor, as he read Isaiah 33:22;
“For the LORD is our judge, the LORD is our lawgiver,
the LORD is our king;
He will save us.â€
[Baron Charles Montesquieu, wrote in 1748; “Nor is there liberty if the power of judging is not separated from legislative power and from executive power. If it [the power of judging] were joined to legislative power, the power over life and liberty of the citizens would be arbitrary, for the judge would be the legislature if it were joined to the executive power, the judge could have the force of an oppressor. All would be lost if the same … body of principal men … exercised these three powers.” Madison claimed Isaiah 33:22 as the source of division of power in government
See also: pp.241-242 in Teaching and Learning America’s Christian History: The Principle approach by Rosalie Slater]
James McHenry – Signer of the Constitution | Portrait of James McHenry
Public utility pleads most forcibly for the general distribution of the Holy Scriptures. The doctrine they preach, the obligations they impose, the punishment they threaten, the rewards they promise, the stamp and image of divinity they bear, which produces a conviction of their truths, can alone secure to society, order and peace, and to our courts of justice and constitutions of government, purity, stability and usefulness. In vain, without the Bible, we increase penal laws and draw entrenchments around our institutions. Bibles are strong entrenchments. Where they abound, men cannot pursue wicked courses, and at the same time enjoy quiet conscience.
Jedediah Morse: | portrait of Jedediah Morse
“To the kindly influence of Christianity we owe that degree of civil freedom, and political and social happiness which mankind now enjoys. . . . Whenever the pillars of Christianity shall be overthrown, our present republican forms of government, and all blessings which flow from them, must fall with them.”
John Peter Gabriel Muhlenberg | Statue of John Peter Gabriel Muhlenberg
In a sermon delivered to his Virginia congregation on Jan. 21, 1776, he preached from Ecclesiastes 3.
Arriving at verse 8, which declares that there is a time of war and a time of peace, Muhlenberg noted that this surely was not the time of peace; this was the time of war. Concluding with a prayer, and while standing in full view of the congregation, he removed his clerical robes to reveal that beneath them he was wearing the uniform of an officer in the Continental army! He marched to the back of the church; ordered the drum to beat for recruits and over three hundred men joined him, becoming the Eighth Virginia Brigade. John Peter Muhlenberg finished the Revolution as a Major-General, having been at Valley Forge and having participated in the battles of Brandywine, Germantown, Monmouth, Stonypoint, and Yorktown.
Thomas Paine:
“ It has been the error of the schools to teach astronomy, and all the other sciences, and subjects of natural philosophy, as accomplishments only; whereas they should be taught theologically, or with reference to the Being who is the author of them: for all the principles of science are of divine origin. Man cannot make, or invent, or contrive principles: he can only discover them; and he ought to look through the discovery to the Author.â€
“ The evil that has resulted from the error of the schools, in teaching natural philosophy as an accomplishment only, has been that of generating in the pupils a species of atheism. Instead of looking through the works of creation to the Creator himself, they stop short, and employ the knowledge they acquire to create doubts of his existence. They labour with studied ingenuity to ascribe every thing they behold to innate properties of matter, and jump over all the rest by saying, that matter is eternal.†“The Existence of God–1810â€
Benjamin Rush:
• “I lament that we waste so much time and money in punishing crimes and take so little pains to prevent them…we neglect the only means of establishing and perpetuating our republican forms of government; that is, the universal education of our youth in the principles of Christianity by means of the Bible; for this Divine Book, above all others, constitutes the soul of republicanism.†“By withholding the knowledge of [the Scriptures] from children, we deprive ourselves of the best means of awakening moral sensibility in their minds.†[Letter written (1790’s) in Defense of the Bible in all schools in America]
• “Christianity is the only true and perfect religion.â€
• “If moral precepts alone could have reformed mankind, the mission of the Son of God into our world would have been unnecessary.â€
“Let the children who are sent to those schools be taught to read and write and above all, let both sexes be carefully instructed in the principles and obligations of the Christian religion. This is the most essential part of educationâ€
Letters of Benjamin Rush, “To the citizens of Philadelphia: A Plan for Free Schools”, March 28, 1787
Justice Joseph Story:
“ I verily believe Christianity necessary to the support of civil society. One of the beautiful boasts of our municipal jurisprudence is that Christianity is a part of the Common Law. . . There never has been a period in which the Common Law did not recognize Christianity as lying its foundations.â€
[Commentaries on the Constitution of the United States p. 593]
“ Infidels and pagans were banished from the halls of justice as unworthy of credit.†[Life and letters of Joseph Story, Vol. II 1851, pp. 8-9.]
“ At the time of the adoption of the constitution, and of the amendment to it, now under consideration [i.e., the First Amendment], the general, if not the universal sentiment in America was, that Christianity ought to receive encouragement from the state, so far as was not incompatible with the private rights of conscience, and the freedom of religious worship.â€
[Commentaries on the Constitution of the United States p. 593]
Noah Webster: | Portrait of Noah Webster
“ The duties of men are summarily comprised in the Ten Commandments, consisting of two tables; one comprehending the duties which we owe immediately to God-the other, the duties we owe to our fellow men.â€
“In my view, the Christian religion is the most important and one of the first things in which all children, under a free government ought to be instructed…No truth is more evident to my mind than that the Christian religion must be the basis of any government intended to secure the rights and privileges of a free people.â€
[Source: 1828, in the preface to his American Dictionary of the English Language]
Let it be impressed on your mind that God commands you to choose for rulers just men who will rule in the fear of God [Exodus 18:21]. . . . If the citizens neglect their duty and place unprincipled men in office, the government will soon be corrupted . . . If our government fails to secure public prosperity and happiness, it must be because the citizens neglect the Divine commands, and elect bad men to make and administer the laws. [Noah Webster, The History of the United States (New Haven: Durrie and Peck, 1832), pp. 336-337, 49]
“All the miseries and evils which men suffer from vice, crime, ambition, injustice, oppression, slavery and war, proceed from their despising or neglecting the precepts contained in the Bible.†[Noah Webster. History. p. 339]
“The Bible was America’s basic textbook
in all fields.†[Noah Webster. Our Christian Heritage p.5]
“Education is useless without the Bible†[Noah Webster. Our Christian Heritage p.5 ]
George Washington:
Farewell Address: The name of American, which belongs to you, in your national capacity, must always exalt the just pride of Patriotism, more than any appellation derived from local discriminations. With slight shades of difference, you have the same religion” …and later: “…reason and experience both forbid us to expect, that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle…” | photo of Farewell address original manuscript
“ It is impossible to rightly govern the world without God and Bible.â€
“What students would learn in American schools above all is the religion of Jesus Christ.†[speech to the Delaware Indian Chiefs May 12, 1779]
“To the distinguished character of patriot, it should be our highest glory to add the more distinguished character of Christian” [May 2, 1778, at Valley Forge]
During his inauguration, Washington took the oath as prescribed by the Constitution but added several religious components to that official ceremony. Before taking his oath of office, he summoned a Bible on which to take the oath, added the words “So help me God!†to the end of the oath, then leaned over and kissed the Bible.
Nelly Custis-Lewis (Washington’s adopted daughter):
Is it necessary that any one should [ask], “Did General Washington avow himself to be a believer in Christianity?” As well may we question his patriotism, his heroic devotion to his country. His mottos were, “Deeds, not Words”; and, “For God and my Country.”
“ O Most Glorious God, in Jesus Christ, my merciful and loving Father; I acknowledge and confess my guilt in the weak and imperfect performance of the duties of this day. I have called on Thee for pardon and forgiveness of my sins, but so coldly and carelessly that my prayers are become my sin, and they stand in need of pardon.â€
“ I have sinned against heaven and before Thee in thought, word, and deed. I have contemned Thy majesty and holy laws. I have likewise sinned by omitting what I ought to have done and committing what I ought not. I have rebelled against the light, despising Thy mercies and judgment, and broken my vows and promise. I have neglected the better things. My iniquities are multiplied and my sins are very great. I confess them, O Lord, with shame and sorrow, detestation and loathing and desire to be vile in my own eyes as I have rendered myself vile in Thine. I humbly beseech Thee to be merciful to me in the free pardon of my sins for the sake of Thy dear Son and only Savior Jesus Christ who came to call not the righteous, but sinners to repentance. Thou gavest Thy Son to die for me.â€
[George Washington; from a 24 page authentic handwritten manuscript book dated April 21-23, 1752
William J. Johnson George Washington, the Christian (New York: The Abingdon Press, New York & Cincinnati, 1919), pp. 24-35.]
Click here for George Washington’s Prayer Journal
“Although guided by our excellent Constitution in the discharge of official duties, and actuated, through the whole course of my public life, solely by a wish to promote the best interests of our country; yet, without the beneficial interposition of the Supreme Ruler of the Universe, we could not have reached the distinguished situation which we have attained with such unprecedented rapidity. To HIM, therefore, should we bow with gratitude and reverence, and endeavor to merit a continuance of HIS special favors”. [1797 letter to John Adams]
James Wilson: | Portrait of James Wilson
Signer of the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution
Supreme Court Justice appointed by George Washington
Spoke 168 times during the Constitutional Convention
“Christianity is part of the common law”
[Sources: James Wilson, Course of Lectures [vol 3, p.122]; and quoted in Updegraph v. The Commonwealth, 11 Serg, & R. 393, 403 (1824).]
________________________________________________________________________
Public Institutions
Liberty Bell Inscription:
“ Proclaim liberty throughout the land and to all the inhabitants thereof†[Leviticus 25:10]
Proposals for the seal of the United States of America
• “Moses lifting his wand and dividing the Red Sea†–Ben Franklin
July 31st, 2006 at 12:14 am
Can you please not judge Apostle Alton R. Williams, without educating yourself about the statue? I find it ignorant of you to jump to conclusions. For your information, World Overcomers Outreach Ministries Church has done many things for the community of Hickory Hill and the city of Memphis. First look up the facts before you jump to conclusions. How dare you call us fools? You should not judge lest you not be judged. Oh by the way, I see no one criticized or put down the free carnival that was open to the community on the day the statue was unveiled. We fail to address that World Overcomers gave away free food, free rides, a free laser show, and plenty of other things. I wonder if that qualifies as feeding the poor and serving the community? You can visit the church’s website for more information on what they have done for the community.
http://www.worldovercomers.org
July 31st, 2006 at 10:00 am
Wow ShunBob, you made up for low-quality content with the sheer quantity of content. The link would have surfaced.
First off, the fist settlers to this country were most certainly Christians. They didn’t like the brand of religious prosecution found in England and decided to form their own kind of religious prosecution over seas. “There’s a witch! Burn her!” Thus their opinion certainly doesn’t reflect what the government was founded on. Thank god people with brains came over here and organized the colonies into a non-religious government.
Next, many the people the link quoted did not have much of a hand in drafting the constitution which is the basis of our government (Washington’s adopted daughter?). Also, many of the quotes are about their personal lives and beliefs, NOT their vision for America’s government. Finally, some of the quote, in particular Paine’s, Jefferson’s, and Franklin’s in particular, were taken WAY out of context. Those three definitely did NOT believe in the resurrection of Jesus because it doesn’t stand to reason.
By they way, people don’t know things in their hearts, they know it with their brains. If you started thinking with the correct organ you might be able to come up with your own arguments to support “The Christian States of America” view instead of just regurgitating something that someone else fed you.
July 31st, 2006 at 11:55 am
Matthew 12:34-36
You brood of snakes! How could evil men like you speak what is good and right? For whatever is in your heart determines what you say. A good person produces good things from the treasury of a good heart, and an evil person produces evil things the treasury of an evil heart. And I must tell you this, you must give an account on judgment day for every idle word you speak.
When I talk about the heart, I am not talking about the organ. If you read the bible, it is talking about your spiritual heart.
July 31st, 2006 at 12:37 pm
But don’t fundamentalists take a literal translation of the Bible? Thus when it says ‘heart’ it means a heart, not some metaphor for a spiritual heart.
Oh, that’s right. Fundamentalist leader only take a literal interpretation when it suites their agenda.
You still haven’t given any credence to the claim that America was founded on Christianity. One website with selective and out-of-context quotes and a biased point of view is not enough. Read Locke, read Jefferson’s letters and his attempt at “The Jefferson Bible”, read Paine’s “Age of Reason” and “The Rights of Man”. When you do you’ll see just how non-Christian many of the founders were. You’ll also learn that ALL the founders, the Christian ones included, valued intellectual reason and distrusted authority. These values are in stark opposition to fundamentalist Christianity. Even though some of the founders were Christian, their Christianity was very different from modern American Christianity. Many of those also went well out of their way to make sure that Christianity was not the official religion of America.
July 31st, 2006 at 2:38 pm
It does not matter what the quotes say. God is not pleased with the decisions that our country is making. I just can not wait until Jesus comes back, and proves that he is the alpha and the omega, the beginning and the end. He will prove to the world that he is Lord of Lords. And those who are prepared for his coming will rejoice. Those who do not believe that Jesus died on the cross for our sins will be judged.
July 31st, 2006 at 3:21 pm
How do you know that God is not pleased? Is it because some authority figure told you so? What’s your evidence and/or reasoning?
What can’t you wait for? Vindication of your beliefs? Is that not pride, one of the seven deadly sins, according to Christianity? Or is it that you really want to see those who do not believe “Jesus died on the cross for our sins” (about 2/3rds of the world’s population) suffer? Would a loving God really judge that most of the world should suffer eternal torment? The Christian belief of an all-powerful, all-knowing, all-loving God is incompatible with the concept of hell.
July 31st, 2006 at 4:50 pm
This post needs some Maynard…
You’re such an inspiration for the ways
That I’ll never ever choose to be
Oh so many ways for me to show you
How the savior has abandoned you
Fuck your God.
Your Lord and your Christ
He did this
Took all you had and
Left you this way
Still you pray, you never stray
Never taste of the fruit
You never thought to question why
It’s not like you killed someone
It’s not like you drove a hateful spear into his side
Praise the one who left you
Broken down and paralyzed
He did it all for you
He did it all for you
Oh so many many ways for me to show you
How your dogma has abandoned you
Pray to your Christ, to your god
Never taste of the fruit
Never stray, never break
Never—choke on a lie
Even though he’s the one who did this to you
You never thought to question why
Not like you killed someone
It’s Not like you drove a spiteful spear into his side
Talk to Jesus Christ
As if he knows the reasons why
He did it all for you
Did it all for you
He did it all for you
I think the main point of this great song is pretty straight-forward.FUCK YOUR GOD
July 31st, 2006 at 9:14 pm
I will pray for you all. Because if the statue was not such an big issue, you would not continue to talk about it. What is bothering you so much about it? There are many statues out in the world, but you choose to focus on this one. Is it because the statue is holding a Cross in its hand? What is the problem? You don’t have to look at it.
August 1st, 2006 at 9:01 am
What is bothering us so much about it?!? It’s an explicit expression of the desire of American fundamentalists to make Christianity the official religion of America. It’s an endorsement of a theocracy over democracy. Since it is an blatant and obvious example of religious extremism, it made it onto religiousfreaks.com. And, if you had actually READ the posts from the beginning, you would have seen how a discussion formed around it. It’s not the statue that’s bringing us hear, it is the discussion.
August 1st, 2006 at 4:56 pm
The amount of self-righteousness infused into this otherwise purely intellectual forum coming from the Christian side of this debate is enough to choke a man! How dare you declare yourself as better than someone else? Does not the Constitution, the most powerful document in our government, say that all men are created equal? Your claims of piety make me sick to my stomach. I damn you to your own imaginary hell to triumph yourself over the other religions of this nation and this earth.
If anything, christ taught a good message, something that our founding fathers did recognize. And again, the things christ taught were conclusions that any logical, rational person could arrive at on thier own. He did not teach blind acceptance and mass fanaticism. And this was something Jefferson acknowledged when he said,”I am a real Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus.” He was acknowledging a good message without accepting the divinity of Christ (which was, by the way, decided by a council of romans).
To put the end on this debate though, I offer this piece of evidence. George Washington, the Father of our country, and John Adams (Second President of the USA) CLEARLY stated in the 1796 Treaty of Tripoli, “The Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian Religion.â€
Taking that into account, how could you say that this is in any way a christian nation? My guess? Self-righteousness combined with varying degrees of ignorance. You see, my fanatical Christian friends, what you call “faith”, and by that I mean blind and total acceptance of the bible, is actually what SEPARATES you from our nations fore-fathers.
August 2nd, 2006 at 1:16 pm
Ignorance is all over this page!!! I am sick of it!!!
August 17th, 2006 at 5:37 am
Anonymous the only ignorance on this page is you, you have put forward no argument at all and you completely fail to recognise what the problem with the statue is, your narrow mindedness is what is wrong with america today. Everyone is entitled to their own point of view but everyone else on this page has come to the discussion armed with facts, you however have turned up with a book no better than a fairy tale. If you want to believe it thats fine but not everybody is as uneducated as you,
God made me an Atheist, who are you to question His wisdom?!
April 19th, 2007 at 3:49 pm
I just thought of this, some comic relief.
Light a man a fire, and he will be warm for the night. Set a man on fire, and he will be warm for the rest of his life.
June 12th, 2007 at 10:46 am
I know that some of you guys on this page, are disggusted about the Statue of Liberty at Worldovercomers, but you have to admit that paster Alton R. Williams has done alot for the communtiy. The Statue of Liberty has not done anything to you. I’m votiing for the Statue of Liberty to stay. And you guys need to read the bible more often. And when you respond to my message do not criticize my comment.Because pastor Alton R. Williams is a wonderful pastor and he had the Statue of Liberty built at Worldovercomers, and it took alot of time and money for it to be built. I use to be a member of worldovercomers for eight years I was even a member of Central Church before worldovercomers was there. But I relocated last summer in 2006. So you could say that I’ve been a member of that church every since I was a baby and now I’m a teenager. So get your act together and vote for it to stay. Pastor Alton R. Williams has given back to the community just like Ludachris if you listen to rap music. They have donated and did alot of good things for people. I have a question, Are any of you guys a member of worldovercomers? Did you here the service this past sunday.June10, 2007. If not, go on the website to worldovercomers.org and click on video and click on the thig that says eight services on demand. And watch the past services. I love worldovercomers and pastor Alton R. Williams and his wife, and my friends and family at Worldovercomers. I was apart of the choir when I was young and apart of the praise and worship dance ministriy in 2005 for the christmas play. Worldovercomers is an excellent church.And pastor Alton R. Williams and his family has not done a thing to you. So how dare you disrespect the Statue of Liberty, Worldovercomers, the people who go to worldovercomers, and Pastor Alton R. Williams. You guys have some serious issues. Are you’ll going through a phase or something. If so you need to go to your nearest doctor or go and see a counslor. I would suggest that you guys visit worldovercomers one sunday and get saved because I know that all of you’ll are not members of the church.I can see the devil is in all of you guys because if not you’ll wouldn’t say evil things about the statue of Liberty. If you have something to say about my comment please fill free to e-mail me back. C.S. out.
June 12th, 2007 at 11:32 am
well, short and sweet, idolatry in a grand way.
June 12th, 2007 at 12:07 pm
Jagannath, are you responding to my comment? If so, what do you mean by that?
June 12th, 2007 at 4:11 pm
“” So how dare you disrespect the Statue of Liberty, Worldovercomers, the people who go to worldovercomers, and Pastor Alton R. Williams.”"
It has something to do with that statement.
Also, my reasons for disrespect are the following:
1 - Throwing away 250.000 dollar which could have been spent in much better ways then building a giant green idol
2 - Forcing their religion on other people, thereby limiting their enjoyment of life in general
3 - insults aimed at everyone not sharing their religion
I could go on for a while, but these points are at the top of my mind.
And while you’re giving away some free advice, I would suggest the following. Learn english if you’re going to use it. Your dreadull spelling and interpunction is simply painfull and is not helping your allready argumentally-impared preaching.
Second, take a good long, objective look at what you believe, and why you believe it. Then take a look at what you answered to to questions and how you came to those. Keep going until you reach a final conlusion.
June 12th, 2007 at 6:00 pm
Alcari, you know what, while you criticizing my spelling, you need to check your on spelling because when you said, “Then take a look at what you answered to to questions and how you came to those.” That does not make any since to me. And where you get of talking to me like that you’re my mom or somebody. I am a half way grown black woman. And how you know you not talking to the police. You need to learn english yourself. And you can be appauled or what ever you want because I could care less. And another thing, nobody talks to C.S. this way. So give your own self advice!!! And pastor Alton R. Williams is a preacher that tells it like it is. And you can keep your points at the top of your mind!!
June 12th, 2007 at 7:40 pm
I ‘m going with C.S. I like wat she said, and Aclari who ever you are, don’t talk to her/him like that. You’ll do need to get saved.
June 12th, 2007 at 7:47 pm
$10 says K.K. and C.S. are the same , illiterate person. it’s even funnier since the comment box has a spell checker.
June 12th, 2007 at 8:11 pm
Well, C.S. Idolatry is practice of worshiping idols and what else it is?
The statue is a perverted version of the original with the religious trappings thrown on to it. Those trappings transform the concept of Liberty into submission.
I do wonder what you would say if a Minaret would be built right next to the statue?
June 12th, 2007 at 8:52 pm
Howdy all,
Well as I am Australian I don’t know enough about it to way in on the “America founded on christian values” discussion. However I can (and will) give my thoughts on the Statue from my perspective.
Should said church be allowed to build this statue:
I believe the answer to this question is yes. If they have a compelling need to build a statue like this (as silly as it may seem to the rest of us) then they should go ahead and do it. The rest of of will laugh quietly at their conceit. However if they are allowed to erect and display such a large and somewhat profane (in my opinion) image of the statue of liberty, they should allow someone to erect a statue of Jesus bowing before Mohummad (if someone so desired) without complaint. I doubt they would allow something like that to happen without jumping up and down and calling it a gross insult to their beliefs. So those of you who support this statue I hope that gives you some idea as to how the statue comes accross to us that do not share your beliefs. Those of us that see the statue of liberty as a symbol of freedom and justice. We don’t see christiany as a symbol of freedom and justice and given the atics of the christian movements trying to muscle in and bring in legislation that would force people to follow their beliefs, alot of us view it as completely the opposite. So for a christian church to use such a symbol for their own agenda is slightly insulting to us. And we view the whole idea, particullay at that price as a collosal conceit and waste of time and money.
Cheers
Simon
June 13th, 2007 at 2:54 am
“”I am a half way grown (halfway grown *) black woman. And how (do) you know you not talking to (are not) the police.(questionmark here) You need to learn english yourself. And you can be appauled (apalled?) or what ever you want (comma here) because I could care less.”"
Don’t you just love it when questions answer themselves?
* Halfway grown = 14 years old…
I agree with Simon that it shouldn’t be forbidden by law, but I also think the church is going against it’s own dogma, in that it is both an idol and a huge waste of money which could have been given to the poor.
also, the thought of a statue of jesus kneeling to muhamed is very amuzing. (note, I’m an atheist)
“”it’s even funnier since the comment box has a spell checker.”"
Uhh, what? where would that be?
June 13th, 2007 at 3:07 am
“â€it’s even funnier since the comment box has a spell checker.—
Uhh, what? where would that be?
hmmm… i use firefox with no extra plug-ins, and every mis-spelled word gets underlined red…
June 13th, 2007 at 8:40 am
I do like what you said Simon. Alcari, I understand what you are saying also, and I agree with you also. I still have my own opinion just like eveyone else. Me and K.K. are not the same people she’s just my next door neighbor. She knows me very well. Have a great day!!!
June 13th, 2007 at 4:02 pm
Sometimes the spell checker that I have will not correct words. Oh, Alcari are you a teacher? And yes I’m 14 yaers old, but guess what I’m in the 10th grade. So you don’t have to correct my spelling!!! Do you go to church? Do you read the bible?
June 13th, 2007 at 5:48 pm
Just a quick question C.S. Why do you want to know if Alcari Goes to church and reads the bible? I’m just wondering how this has any bearing on the current discussion. (This is not a personal attack I am actually interested in your view on this)
June 13th, 2007 at 9:01 pm
No comment!!
June 13th, 2007 at 10:49 pm
Come on C.S, if you want information like that, you need to dish it out also.
Me, last time I was in church was about 20 years ago but I have read the bible, what about you? Well, I am meaning reading the bible part as it is clear that you have been in a church by the first post.
And I do not need saving nor does anyone according to bible.
June 15th, 2007 at 6:02 am
Well, because all the horible things you guys are saying about the Statue.Also about World Overcomers. You guys should at least give the church some credit. Because the church always have fun events, programs, and plays. The people at the church donate to homeless shelters. Jagannath, Do you live in Memphis,Tennnessee.
June 15th, 2007 at 11:09 am
@C.S.
you are a person of below average intelligence, quite possibly retarded. one can’t help not coming to that conclusion after reading you comments.
June 15th, 2007 at 5:07 pm
First of all, I wasn’t even talking to you unless you are Jagannath. Second of all, yes a person can come to a conclusion from what I said. How am I retarded if I’m 14 in the 10th grade, tell me that much. Is it because I’m an African American that’s why you called me that. Do have to blow your nose or something because you’re all in my buisness. And if you are discriminating you can get in alot of trouble.
June 16th, 2007 at 1:13 pm
No, I am not resident of Memphis and my question about the bible stems from the fact that I read bible first time when I was seven years old and from that day on, I have been agnostic.
Bible as a literary work is a remarkable piece of work but apart the golden rule, the religion it offers is very violent, demands subjugation and lacks humaneness.
June 16th, 2007 at 9:08 pm
Thanks, for your response Jagannath. I appreciate that fact that you read the bible. What is your opinion on the Statue of Liberty?
June 17th, 2007 at 12:26 am
Statue of Liberty is one of the iconic monuments of our times and comparable to the now destroyed Buddhas of Bamyan or Banaue rice terraces.
It has grown to represent liberty from oppression of all kinds on all the continents during its 121 years reign. It is a symbol of freedom and equality.
Like many monuments it is also model of how people have been able to create it with tools and materials considered inferior by modern standards.
June 17th, 2007 at 12:58 pm
O.K.! Thank You so much. Do you believe in Jesus Christ, and do you put another god before him?
June 17th, 2007 at 3:51 pm
Well, there probably was a man named Yeshua and he caused some unrest but a christ, no. The concept is all too prevalent in cultures predating Christianity to be nothing more than a paragon concept. Horus was credited with many the qualities credited to Jesus and long before christianity so it is highly likely that the composers of bible were very knowledgeable persons but it was collected by a council so gods had little to do with it.
I do not put gods in any order, if there is one, he, she or it is free to exist as long as I am not required to do anything for them, which is where I would pull a line. I have said it before that if one god comes knocking on my door, we may have some coffee or what ever is the beverage of choice for him but apart conversation that is all he will be getting.
June 20th, 2007 at 2:23 pm
O.kay! All I want to know is, Do you belive in Jesus Christ?
June 21st, 2007 at 1:24 am
I think that is a no. (At least in the manner you mean by believe)
Cheers
Simon Bond
June 21st, 2007 at 9:44 am
“”if you are discriminating you can get in alot of trouble.”"
Sorry for the late responce, I tend not to hurry when people start making retarded threads like the above.
Anyway, Yes, I’ve read the bible, cover to cover and must say it was one of the most boring and horrible books i’ve ever read. (though, in a literary way it’s quite good) I did go to church, until I was about your age and started realising the ridiculousness of it all.
Also, note how nobody is saying that the organsing of activities is a bad thing, but the forcing of believe is.
Thirdly, the correction of your spelling was mostly because of the way you act.
Now, as for the statue of liberty. It signifies liberation from oppression and tyranny. It stand for everything that religion is not. What would you think of a statue of liberty holding a swastika or burning american flag? We think this is exactly the same. (note, I’m not even american, I’m dutch)
June 21st, 2007 at 9:07 pm
This is for you Alcari.I don’t care what culture you are. What you said to me, lets me know that you don’t belive in Jesus Christ, and you are not a christian. F.Y.I., the bible is not a horrible book, it’s just a horrible book to you because you have evil written all over you. Now get this straight, I can act any way I want to on the internet because you don’t know me personally. If you live in america what does that make you. I know what you are tring to do little girl, because it is so obvious. You are tring to get me all up set and everything over this Statuue of Liberty, but guess what I’m not and I can see write through you because that’s a little game that the devil is playing in your head. And I’m am a child of God,I’m a christian, and I’m saved. So I guess when you went to church it didn’t do you any good, Did it? So why did you go to church? And to get back on the subject you can correct me all you want because I don’t care. So you can go back to where ever you came from because you don’t belong in america, “sweety.” And I would be glad for you to leave because we don’t need people like you here in america. I wouldn’t care if you left this universe. And I know I’m not helping this situation sitting here arguing back and forth with you, so I’m just going to pray for you and pray that you change your ways, and recieve the lord in your heart. And to get to the end of this conversation I’m going to pray that you get counseling or go see your doctor and get mental help. O.K. Have a wonderful evening!!!
June 22nd, 2007 at 1:14 am
Howdy C.S.
Whilst I realise that your last post was for Alcari I hope you don’t mind if put in my two cents worth. Firstly I don’t believe in God or that the path to salvation is through the acceptance of Jesus Christ into my life. I’m am also not American. I am Australian. By that I mean not only was I born in Australia but I also live in Australia. I’m afraid I can’t say that I have read both the old testament and the new testament from cover to cover. I have however studied them fairly extensively both by myself and with the help of some very educated and knowledgeable christians. Whilst I am certainly not an expert on Christianity I believe I have a decent understanding and knowledge base upon which to base my opinions.
I must tell you that I am a little concerned about the content of your above post. I agree with you that on the internet you can act anyway you want. This does not mean however that you should or that it is right, for you to act in a certain manner. Most people come to this website to discuss their various opinions and beliefs in what is normally a very respectful manner. Through this dialog we hope to gain understanding about each others beliefs and opinions on certain topics. In this case the topic is the World Overcomers Statue of Liberty. The question being discussed is peoples opinion on whether it should have been built and why they hold that opinion. As we gain understanding of each other we can start to see things from other peoples perspective. This helps build tollerance and acceptance of other points of view and a broading of our own points of view. Think of it as respecting peoples right to free speech and excercising your own.
In your first post here (#36) you don’t really defend the merit of building the statue. You point out that World Overcomers have done alot of good and given alot back to the community. This is not being questioned. Whether building the statue has done any good or given back to the community is what is being questioned. Also in your first post you accuse us of being evil, of having “issues” and needing to read the bible more. These seem to me to be personal attacks rather than an honest opinion on why the Statue has merit. Instead of pointing out what good has come from the statue or discussing why you disagree with some of the reasons people don’t agree with the building of the statue, you attack other peoples beliefs and label them as evil. I fail to see how this is in anyway constructive twords showing us why you believe the Statue has merit.
I hope that you can see why, after reading your posts people have found it hard to take your opinion seriously. In all your posts you have spent more time questioning peoples beliefs, making accusations and labeling people as evil. I think this is what Alcari meant by a “making retarded threads”. Whilst I can see how you may have found his post a little heavy handed at least he did answer your questions and stated his reasons for felling that way. When you responded you did nothing but attack him. You accusing him of being evil and playing games. You then tell him to get out of your country without giving any specific reason. (I don’t think “you don’t belong” is a specific reason) I’m not sure but I take it from Acari’s post that there is a chance he lives in the Netherlands and not the United States of America anyway. During your last diatribe you did not once address any of the particular points that Acari brought up. In fact instead of being part of a meaningful discussion and imparting some insight into your point of view in comes accross as nothing more than an angry and meaningless rant.
After re-reading through the posts on this topic it seems to me that you are one here who is acting in the most hatefull and spitefull manner. You have quite a few posts that contain little more than personal attacks on other people. At least most of the other people here have added something to the discussion.
If your intention was to help us understand the good of what this statue that the World Overcomers Church has built you have failed. Infact it would appear that you have done the exact opposite. Through your statements, personal attacks and support of this church you have represented it in a very negative, intolerant and abusive manner. I would hope that these are not the values that paster Alton R. Williams teaches. I would also hope that he would not support a discussion consisting mainly of condemnation and personal attacks instead of helpfull discussion. Finally if he is a good man as you assert I doubt that he would like the thought of a person representing the World Overcomers church in such a manner. I would guess that he would agree with me in the assertion that such behaviour would only drive people away from the church and its message rather than welcome them in an acceting and loving way.
Cheers
Simon Bond
June 22nd, 2007 at 3:24 am
Howdy again,
Sorry I got interupted and did not get to finish what I was trying to say. C.S. as a past member of the Church you are in a position to give us some insight into the how and why of the statue. I for one strongly encourage you to share this information with us. I am very interested in what this church hoped to achieve by building the statue. I would also be interested in how they believed building the statue would achive said goals. So please take part in the discussion with you opinions and reason without resorting to personal attacks and judgements. Whilst we may not agree with your opinions at least you will help us understand how you arrived at them.
Cheers
Simon Bond
June 22nd, 2007 at 6:57 am
Thanks alot Simon! And I’m being serious. I now understand what you guys actually mean. To everyone on the internet who has responded to my comments, I am extremely sorry if you felt that I was attacking you personally. I just wanted you all to understand how I felt about World Overcomers and pastor Alton R. Williams. And no, Pastor Alton R. Williams does not teach us to attack at other peoples beliefs nor is he negative. Anyways, my opioion on the Statue of Liberty is, the church had it built to exalt the ministry of Christ. And to send the sick, opressed, and poor, the Lost of Christ. If you want to learn more about the Statue, you can go to http://www.thestatueofliberationthroughchrist.org, click in the center, and click on the purpose. Well, I have to go. Have a Successful Day!!
June 22nd, 2007 at 7:40 am
First off, Thanks Simon, for stating what i’m thinking so clearly.
“”So I guess when you went to church it didn’t do you any good, Did it? So why did you go to church?”"
Ok, i’ll pretend this was a real question, and you’re not planning the burn me at the stake the first chance you get.
I went to church because I actaully believed everything in the bible was true. I actually thought there was a god in heaven looking out for us and that he created everything we see. But then I grew up. I started learning alternate theories that sounded a lot more plausible. I started noticing all the things that were wrong with world. Mostly though, I started thinking about what was being said in church.
Then I did some good hard thinking, I actaully read the bible twice in a week, (I said horrible because it is one of the hardest stories to follow ever, it’s not exciting or amuzing in any way and it’s damned hard to read) and came to the final conclusion that that the bible is a good literary work and that’s about it.
I’m an atheist now, and I’ve never been happier.
“”I am extremely sorry if you felt that I was attacking you personally.”"
Yes, calling me Evil a little girl, saying “the devil is my head” and calling me mentally unstable really sounds like an accident…
Also, I don’t live in the US, I live in The Netherlands. I thought I said that allready??
June 22nd, 2007 at 7:54 am
Yes, doublepost. It makes it clearer. I took a look at the “purpose” of the statue….
WHAT? First of all, they came to america to get away from religious oppression, not to create their own.
Many of the more prominent Founding Fathers were vocal about their opposition to organized religion or anti-clerical, such as George Washington, John Adams, Thomas Jefferson, Benjamin Franklin
Thou shalt not make for thyself an idol??
see 3
Because that’s what giant bronze woman really mean right?
Free to choose what you want, as long as it’s Christianty
I love this one, especially because it follows 13. “You’re free to follow any religion you want, as long as you follow our values”
I think the poor, sick and homeless would rather have a little of the money that statue cost.
Really? and on what ground do you have the authority to “stand against the world”?? Because of a 2000 year old book? “We didn’t vote for you!”
Ahh yes, “We are culturally superior”. Well back to slavery for us non-christians it is.
June 22nd, 2007 at 8:28 am
Hello Simon,
About a year ago, Medicant7 commented about this. She is (or at least was at the time) a member of that church and we had a good, if brief, discussion about it’s intended meaning and the appropriateness of their statue. It might be an interesting read if you can get past all of my spelling errors and malapropisms.
My discussion with her lead me to research and write this article about the founding of America and Christianity.
June 22nd, 2007 at 11:15 am
No, Alcari you didn’t say that you lived in the Netherlands. Well, what I said what not an accident, but I was a little bit upset and letting my anger get the best of me. But I am tring my best to be nice, and I already apologized so if you don’t except my apology then so be it. And when you typed out the Statue of Liberation words, I did undrestand what you are saying better. So thank you!!
June 22nd, 2007 at 2:08 pm
no problem. Offenseve language online is quickly forgotten.
June 22nd, 2007 at 4:40 pm
Thanks, so much!!
June 24th, 2007 at 12:58 pm
Even though you guys have different beliefs, I just wanted to let you know that Jesus Christ put you on this earth, not any other gods or idols. And Jesus can also take you out of this world, and he also sends down blessings, and he protects you. Other gods and idols are not capable of doing what Jesus Christ can do!!
June 24th, 2007 at 5:09 pm
Howdy all,
Sidfaiwu, thank you for the link to the article and reminding me about Medicant7’s post.
Cheers
Simon Bond
June 25th, 2007 at 1:45 pm
@C.S.
been away but am still waiting for an answer, do you read the bible, the whole bible and nothing but the bible to paraphrase legal statement of intent.
And I do mean the whole book, how many times have you read it? How many versions of it you have read, in how many languages?
June 26th, 2007 at 5:25 pm
I apologize Jagannath, I didn’t know that you asked me if I read the bible. To start of , Yes I read the bible, every other day. But I only read it in english. I read both Old and New Testament. I really don’t keep up with how many versions I read. The Bible is not the only book I read, I have other choices of books, like for school. And if you call yourself tring to get back at me,by asking if I read the bible, the whole bible, don’t do that because it won’t work well with me, and I will get really angry!! Have a great day!!
June 26th, 2007 at 9:14 pm
C.S. I think what Jagannath is trying to dtermine is if you’ve read the bible in context or only studied passages at a time. Poples interetations can be hugely different based on how they have studied the bible. I don’t think he is trying to “get back” at you.
Cheers
Simon Bond
June 27th, 2007 at 7:06 am
Getting angry is the trait which clouds judgment and prevents clarity of thought.
I asked if you read the bible in the comment #51 as Simon said, to differentiate between actual knowledge of the book and mere shibboleth so prevalent in religious people.
June 27th, 2007 at 10:11 am
Jagannath, and I said,”Yes, I read the bible.” Have a nice day!!
June 28th, 2007 at 4:37 am
So, then you know the bibles stance towards idols, few samples attached from new testament but more of the same can be found in the old testament.