UPDATE 9/19/2006 - Original clip is now active again!
If you’re a parent like me and are desperately seeking new and exciting ways to entertain your children… then today is your lucky day! This summer, why don’t you send your little boy or girl to the Kids on Fire Summer School and Ministry in Devil’s Lake, North Dakota. Here, your child (as young as 6) will learn the proper way to be a born again Christian. They will become well versed in political activism and radical views.
Still not sure if it’s right for your precious little ones? Luckily, A&E films has created an extensive documentary on the camp so just sit back and enjoy. If after viewing you’ve decided to have your kids saved, then please sign them up and tell them gasmonso sent you to receive %20 off! Now please, just kick back and enjoy this truly horrific beautiful video clip.
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Related posts:
- Jesus Camp On The Lam
- Camp Out–Where It’s Ok To Drop The Soap
- Jesus Freaks–The Documentary
- SNL–Apocalypto Recut (The Jews Are Coming!)
- Jose Luis De Jesus Miranda, Christ Or Antichrist?
July 12th, 2006 at 9:18 am
“Are you afraid yet little children? NO?!?! Then you’re not paying attention!”
Seriously, telling these young people that “The Devil goes after the young” is nothing short of fear-mongering. The ONLY purpose of causing undue fear is for the purpose of manipulation. These kids are made to believe that if they don’t agree with everything these adults are telling them, then some powerful and evil mythological creature is going to get them.
WARNING: If rants annoy you, stop reading here.
Fear is the enemy of free choice. If you are made to fear all alternative save one, you truly have no choice in the matter. I’m finding it tough to articulate the level of disdain I have for people who use fear as a motivator. It’s just plain evil. Here in the US, fear is now peddled in our churches, government, and news (especially local news). I’m fed up with it! I’m not afraid of hell (there is no such thing), I’m not afraid of terrorists (I’m much more likely to die during my daily commute), and I’m not afraid of crime (I take sensible precautions)! All of these groups are trying to limit our freedom. The church wants to take away an individual’s right to make moral choices. The government wants to take away privacy and due process. The evening news subtlety or indirectly supports stronger police powers by over-inflating the importance and frequency of crime (because it gets ratings). I am so angry at this culture of fear that it boarders on hatred. I do not want to hate these people (I try not to hate anyone), but my tolerance apparently has limits. If you fear hell, save your own soul, don’t force me to save mine. If you fear terrorism and crime, go live in a bunker, don’t suspect me without cause and don’t punish anyone for what they might do.
I, for one, am more than willing to risk a terrorist attack in order to enjoy my freedom to the fullest, live my life according to moral principles that I believe, and walk through my city despite the small risk of becoming a victim of crime. I short, I REFUSE TO BE AFRAID!
Notice some general trends over the past decade and a half in this country:
Violent crime is way down.
Prison populations are swelling.
Reporting of violent crime is way up.
Civil liberties are on the decline.
Did I mention that violent crime is way down?
July 12th, 2006 at 9:36 am
Glad to see you back in good form sidfaiwu! It’s not the same when you’re gone ;)
On a serious note though, I find this camp to be absolutely disturbing. Treating kids in such a manner is sick. The funny thing I bet most of their parents criticize Muslim extremists, when they themselves are equally insane. This country (read:US) is screwed if this crap takes off mainstream.
My hope is that someone who supports this will speak up and explain themselves.
gasmonso
July 12th, 2006 at 10:10 am
sidfaiwu said: “Seriously, telling these young people that “The Devil goes after the young†is nothing short of fear-mongering. The ONLY purpose of causing undue fear is for the purpose of manipulation. These kids are made to believe that if they don’t agree with everything these adults are telling them, then some powerful and evil mythological creature is going to get them.”
In another situation, I would agree with you. But you need to keep in mind that these adults actually believe what they are telling their children. They honestly believe that the devil is out there actively trying to screw up their children’s lives. So when they tell these children that “the devil goes after the young,” what they’re honestly trying to convey to their children is, “the devil will try to screw up your lives in various ways, so beware and actively pursue righteousness.” While you may view this as no less sad, it paints the adults in a considerably less evil light than your assumption that they’re merely trying to turn their children into mindless drones through fear.
sidfaiwu said: “The church wants to take away an individual’s right to make moral choices.” and: “If you fear hell, save your own soul, don’t force me to save mine.”
I’ve been a southern baptist church member since I was very young and I have yet to experience any church I’ve attended trying to take away my freedom to make moral choices. All the churches have done in that regard has been to teach me what they believe to be the consequences for actions and beliefs that they view to be incorrect. Now, if you’re referring to politicians claiming affiliation with the church, then I agree with you.
Also, it is my belief, as a christian, that Jesus has saved my soul from hell. However, while I might want to tell friends and loved ones about this very personal thing that has been a benefit to me, I would never try to force anyone to believe as I do. In fact, I believe that attempting to do so is not only detrimental to the evangelical cause, but also damned annoying.
As for the rest of what you said, I pretty much agree with you. And I do believe that the people in the video are silly. There are more importants things to worry about than your kids reading/watching Harry Potter or listening to Lindsay Lohan.
July 12th, 2006 at 10:26 am
UncleMidriff, just because these adults truly believe it, doesn’t make it any less wrong. Ignorance is no excuse. Look how many suicide bombers firmly believe that blowing up civilians is good and noble… does that make them any less evil?
No it doesn’t.
P.S Glad to have a Christian reader contributing! Thanks :)
gasmonso
July 12th, 2006 at 11:27 am
The assertion made was that these adults are trying to use fear to manipulate these children, in order to control them. I think that is untrue.
If they were trying to do that, to control children through fear, but thought that doing so was a good thing, then I could see how your point applies to this situation. But they aren’t trying to control the control children through fear; they are trying to get the children to read less Harry Potter. :-)
Of course, I guess one could view trying to get children to read less of something as a form of control. I don’t. I see it as looking out for the children. For whatever reason, these people think that reading Harry Potter is bad. Though I think that idea is positively stupid, I don’t fault them for instructing their children to stay away from what they perceive as a threat.
I guess I don’t see the harm in telling kids to stay away from Harry Potter. Now, if these adults were telling the children to go kill the author of Harry Potter, that’d be a different story entirely.
P.S. Thank you! I’m glad to be here.
July 12th, 2006 at 11:35 am
Okay, I’ve watched the video again and that lady does come awfully close to advocating the killing of warlocks. While I’m going to give her the beneift of the doubt and hope that she’s just speaking hyperbolically, she is way out of line and needs to shut up.
July 12th, 2006 at 11:44 am
THIS SITE IS A BASTION OF BLASPHEMY AND I CONDEMN IT TO HELL BY THE NAME OF OUR LORD AND SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST. THE AUTHORS HERE ARE DOING THE DEVILS WORK AND THE WRATH OF GOD WILL BE UPON YOU. PRAISE HIS NAME!!
THIS CAMP SHOWS HOW WE MUST PROTECT OUR PRECIOUS CHILDREN FROM THE SATANIC FOLLOWERS SUCH AS THE READERS OF THIS SITE, SHAME BE UPON THEM!
JESUS CHRIST OUR LORD PROCLAIMED THAT WARLOCKS AND MUSLIMS ARE INDEED SOLDIERS OF THE DEVIL AND MUST BE ERADICATED FROM OUR MIDST! THE SATANIC ARABS AND MUSLIMS ATTACKED US ON 9/11 AND WE WILL NOT REST UNTIL THE VERY LAST ARAB MAN WOMAN AND CHILD IS DEAD AND CHRIST IS VICTORIOUS!! HALLELUJAH PRAISE HIM!!
GOD BLESS AMERICA
July 12th, 2006 at 11:56 am
@ Warrior:
Cool! So you’re saying that Gasmonso and the readers of this site will be going to hell? Yes! Hell just got a lot more interesting than heaven!
See ya there, Gasmonso! Let’s start planning the party early!
July 12th, 2006 at 12:06 pm
Warrior from Christ is undoutbly a joke, though it’s no less funny even if it’s not meant to be.
“JESUS CHRIST OUR LORD PROCLAIMED THAT WARLOCKS AND MUSLIMS ARE INDEED SOLDIERS OF THE DEVIL”
My favorite part, considering Islam didn’t come about until well after the death of christ. :)
July 12th, 2006 at 12:15 pm
HELL IS NO JOKE SINNERS. KEEP LAUGHING AND YOU WILL BURN FOR ETERNITY. NOW IS THE TIME TO REPENT!!
JESUS IS THE LIVING GOD AND HE SPEAKS THROUGH HIS CHOSEN AND HAS COMMANDED THE DEATH OF THOSE BLASPHEMERS AND NON BELIEVERS WHO WAGE WAR ON US.
DID YOU KNOW ARABS WERE SPAWNED BY THE DEVIL HIMSELF?? ABRAHAM WAS SEDUCED BY HIS SERVANT GIRL SENT BY THE DEVIL AND ISHMAEL WAS BORN CURSE HIS NAME!!
GOD BLESS AMERICA
July 12th, 2006 at 1:03 pm
That is one sharp little girl at the beginning. She’ll last long as a christian.
July 12th, 2006 at 1:10 pm
just one question, who created the devil? and why?
yes I know it is a stupid question… but that just came to my mind right now =P
July 12th, 2006 at 1:22 pm
God created the devil to keep people like you in order! Now do as he says :)
Seriously, Christians see the devil as a fallen angel.
He was cast down to hell for waging war against God. That’s the simplified version :)
gasmonso
July 12th, 2006 at 2:04 pm
Hello UncleMidriff,
It is not what they are teaching the children that bothers me so much as how they are teaching them. They are trying to motivate kids by making them fear the devil. There are other methods that are much less subversive to free choice.Hello UncleMidriff,
It is not what they are teaching the children that bothers me as much as how they are teaching them. They are trying to motivate kids by making them fear the devil. There are other methods that are much less subversive to free choice.
Let’s take a child’s choice to read a J.K. Rowling novel for example. Instead of guiding them through any reasons Christianity would disapprove of the book or educating them on how to interpret everything they read from a Christian perspective, they instead tell them that if they read it, the devil will f&*# up their lives. This leaves them with no choice. They cannot choose to read the book because they are afraid that doing so will expose them to Satan. Using either of the other two methods will enable a child to still choose to read the book and then decide if the message was immoral or not. If they’ve been taught correctly (from a Christian perspective), then they will decide for themselves that reading such material is wrong.
Now a quick note on what they are teaching. Their condemnation of Harry Potter implies that anyone who reads such books has been ‘gotten’ by Satan. Implicit in this is that Harry Potter fans are to be considered evil or at least tainted. It’s a bad message.
Also, in reference to taking away moral choice; I was, indeed referring to the politicians that claim an affiliation with Christianity. That being said, the US is (at least in theory) is a representative democracy. Thus I am also referring the hoards of fundamentalists that have been voting those politicians into office for the purpose of legislating Christian morality. Furthermore, I am referring to political groups that advocate deontological laws. So while I agree that individually fundamentalists are not trying to subvert moral choice, collectively, they definitely are.
Side Note: God I love these sorts of discussions!
July 12th, 2006 at 2:15 pm
Exactly Sidfaiwu. One thing I don’t like is when people tell someone to do something for fear of reprisal. Now, while they might be teaching them something worthy and appropriate… they should explain why it is such.
For example, I don’t tell my son to stay away from the stove because he’ll go to hell if he doesn’t. I explain to him that it is dangerous and could result in injury, etc…
If these parents truly believe Harry Potter is evil, then explain yourself instead of using the fear of Satan to scare kids into agreeing with you.
It’s just insane.
gasmonso
July 12th, 2006 at 2:45 pm
I CALL FOR A JIHAD AGAINST THE WARRIOR FOR CHRIST!
ALLAHU AKBAR!
July 12th, 2006 at 2:55 pm
sidfaiwu: very well put!
July 12th, 2006 at 5:56 pm
“DID YOU KNOW ARABS WERE SPAWNED BY THE DEVIL HIMSELF?? ABRAHAM WAS SEDUCED BY HIS SERVANT GIRL SENT BY THE DEVIL AND ISHMAEL WAS BORN CURSE HIS NAME!!”
And how did you find out about this? Probably read it in some kind of book, like the one about Harry Potter.
Did you know that there are warlocks and witches living among us.
July 12th, 2006 at 6:03 pm
“Seriously, Christians see the devil as a fallen angel.
He was cast down to hell for waging war against God.”
That tells us something about how mighty God is. He can’t even keep his angels under control.
July 12th, 2006 at 6:08 pm
That girl in the beginning seems to be saying she doesn’t believe in guys and girls? And yet they exist. Isn’t that odd?
July 12th, 2006 at 6:56 pm
You can tell the Warrior for Christ posts are a joke because the words are all spelled correctly.
July 12th, 2006 at 10:30 pm
I swear, Christians are really out to take over the world. And they admit it.
July 12th, 2006 at 11:23 pm
Wow. This is like a look back into my childhood. I never actually went to church camp, but I went to enough “revivals” that my parents of course attended to have heard these types of canned sermons hundreds of times.
Fundamental Christianity is a religion built on two things: Fear and money. They try to sugar coat it with the “God Loves You!” message, but at the core, it’s beyond disturbing what is taught.
July 13th, 2006 at 11:33 am
That is a really fair video to judge an entire Christian summer camp. I mean, the first half shows some kids singing and dancing. WHAT AN ATROCITY! The second half is one speaker that doesn’t like Harry Potter. OH NOES!
I’m glad I didn’t go there or I would have “become well versed in political activism and radical views.” I would be sitting outside of the White House AS WE SPEAK holding a sign that reads BURN POTTER.
July 13th, 2006 at 3:21 pm
Really now, I think that we can’t just let religious fervor alone. Religious fervor from Christianity is just as terrible as that of Muslims or Jews. We canot condone Christian extremeism as we condescend against that of Muslims. And really now, are we ignorant about the fact that church and state grow ever more entwined in this country. I am no atheist, but I damn well believe that the church should not have undue influence on the state.
July 13th, 2006 at 3:51 pm
Sometimes, I just feel the increadible urge to go to one of those meetings, and constantly ask “why?”, “How?” and “But isn’t that…?”
Most Christians hardly know what they “believe” and haven’t really thought about it either. Really, if you want to have a fun day AND piss of someone you probably won’t like, ask some who just came out of church why they believe.
July 13th, 2006 at 6:41 pm
“Seriously, Christians see the devil as a fallen angel.
He was cast down to hell for waging war against God.â€
That tells us something about how mighty God is. He can’t even keep his angels under control.
What it should instruct you in is a little something called “free will.”
I’ve never met anyone who actually thought their kids would be turned forever to the darkside for reading something written by J.K. Rowlings, but if I met one I would ask them if they also forbid their children from reading Shakespeare (double, double, toil and trouble) or Tolkein (also chock full of magic and magical creatures). It’s like Wal-mart… they won’t sell music with explicit lyrics but they’re happy to schlep the unrated version of American Pie. Hypocrits, every last one of them.
July 13th, 2006 at 10:17 pm
I a
July 14th, 2006 at 1:01 am
I am a Christian. I didn’t even watch the video clip because religious extremists scare me.
I have only been to church a couple of times and didn’t like the people there who are very hypocritical.
However, that doesn’t change my beliefs. In response to Alcari, I wouldn’t be a fun Christian to “mess with.” If asked why I believe, I would say that deep down in my heart I always knew He existed and reading the bible makes me feel good inside. No one else in my family is a believer, so no I wasn’t brainwashed as a child. I happen to be an intelligent, Democratic person who just happens to be a believer.
We are not all freaks. Many people on this website seem to think that every Christian is the same. No two people are the same. “Nuff said”
July 14th, 2006 at 7:15 am
Amber, you come off as a somewhat hostile Christian. Nobody here (well at least not everyone) is calling Chrisitians freaks. Ok, this site focuses on extremism. Sure I make fun of religion, but a little dose of humor is all thats needed. I, as do many here, respect people’s beliefs. So please… just relax and share your thoughts with us. I have learned a lot from the religious types that contribute here.
Regards,
gasmonso
July 14th, 2006 at 1:56 pm
wow, I didn’t realize I seemed hostile!! lol I guess thanks for pointing that out.
I simply said what I did because reading through a lot of the responses to the “articles” I guess, seem to always say “yeah those damn Christians, always pushing their religion on me” or “yeah, why can’t Christians just leave me alone?” Maybe certain ones, but I have never pushed my beliefs on anyone and don’t like being shoved into a category with people who just happen to share my beliefs on the afterlife.
That’s like saying all atheists are Satan worshippers trying to burn our children or some crap. I was just saying not all Christians send their children to some sort of crazy Jesus camp. I’d be afraid of what they were telling my children!
July 14th, 2006 at 2:18 pm
Amber, Atheists can’t be satan worshippers since we don’t believe in God who created Satan in the first place. But I suppose Atheists could be considered puppy killing monsters who drink the blood of babies ;)
Welcome to Religiousfreaks and I hope to see you around more!
gasmonso
July 14th, 2006 at 7:11 pm
I wish I could see the whole thing.
July 15th, 2006 at 7:12 pm
Mmmmm…fresh killed puppies.
July 15th, 2006 at 8:16 pm
…what I find most interesting is that some religious fanatics (read: not ALL Christians) will spout on and on about how the Bible condemns the so-called occult and all its surrounding lore as the “black arts”, but the Bible itself, especially the Old Testament, is one of the greatest occult books compiled! With tons of references to Astrology, Numerolgy, and Cabbalistic practices.
For myself, I’m a firm believer that any organised religion is just a front, an interface for something they may not fully be able to completely understand or comprehend. However, distilling it, breaking it apart, questioning it, is the track to obtaining a complete knowledge of everything we as mankind seek to know.
For myself, it’s just seems to “easy” to sit back and say “ok, God thought everything up, I’m forgiven through Jesus, and what happens, happens, because it’s all part of HIS plan.” It isn’t that easy IMHO. There is a category of knowledge, of the unknown, that we could seek out and perhaps it explains it all, and perhaps it doesn’t. For me, the journey, and finding out if its one God/Goddess, or many Gods/Goddesses, or none of the above is the most exciting part. :)
July 17th, 2006 at 2:32 pm
Ahhh but see Laura, Tolkien was a Christian so that gives him an out and while most American Chrisitans have read Shakespeare, he’s not exactly a best seller these days now is he? I’m not saying Rowling is evil (unless writing middling fantasy is a sin) but it’s not just about the magic.
Christians who find Potter evil would probably be equally voiciferous about any popular fantasy by a non-Christian author. Especially if it is as appealing to the little ones as this is. Heck, for that matter some really out there Christians are ashamed of the Chronicles of Narnia.
July 20th, 2006 at 2:23 am
Aaaah! Aaaah! Flashbacks! Ahhh!
I had to go to Bible Camp as a kid too. Hey, suprise, I’m not religious anymore!
This was EXACTLY what it was like. SPOT ON.
We had an anti-gay talk one day with one of those big camp ladies who took out one of those baby toys with the square pegs into the square holes, circular into the circular holes, you know what I mean, and she started jamming the square peg in the cicular hole and going “It goes in the hole it’s mean to go into!”
Everyone else was taking it seriously (hate the sin, not the sinner), and I guess I was the only kid to get it, I almost died trying to keep the laughter in.
Remeber kids, it takes “5 good Christian tries to spread the Good Word!”
Ack. I just wanted to go canoeing at camp.
July 25th, 2006 at 9:22 pm
[...] This summer, why don’t you send your little boy or girl to the Kids on Fire Summer School and Ministry in Devil’s Lake, North Dakota. Here, your child (as young as 6) will learn the proper way to be a born again Christian. They will become well versed in political activism and radical views.read more | digg story [...]
July 27th, 2006 at 10:03 am
As a Christian, I found this small video clip to be somewhat disturbing as were some of the derogatory comments e.g. ‘he can’t even keep his angels under control’.
That being said, I think one of the most important points to make is that you shouldn’t simply group all Christians together (extremists with non-extremists), nor should you group all posters on this forum together (derogatory commenters and non d. commenters).
There are many Christians, and obviously me, who disagree with targeting children the way that you see in this video or even in less extreme ways, when it comes to wanting them to understand and persue the Christian faith. Free will is indeed a gift from God and ‘brainwashed’ children (or adults) deny free will. This denial of ‘free will’ actually diminishes the glory and power of God. God’s glory and greatness is truly manifested in the Christians who fully understand, believe, and worship Him. If God really wanted to just have ‘mindless’ followers, he wouldn’t give us the freedom to choose. I have put considerable thought into my Christian faith, especially since I considered leaving it at one point.
P.S. I very much enjoy reading the Harry Potter books. They are entertaining and expouse many good principles and values: chivalry, courage, honor, duty, good over evil, deep friendships, the value of family and friends, equality of life, and I could keep going. These are many values that I value and that my god understands and values as well :)
Cheers,
noah
August 4th, 2006 at 4:18 pm
Wow! I like this discussion (and website)…and I’m a fundamentalist Christian. It intrigues me to see what non-believers say about religion, God, Hell, and Christians. Since you all seem to be quite intelligent and well-read, you are aware that C.S. Lewis was a scholar, a philosopher, and maintained an inerrant view of the Scriptures. The authority on which we Believers base our beliefs has nothing to do with a church, denomination, preacher, politician, or even personal feelings.
When someone makes a bold statement, I want to know by what authority he can make such a statement. When Christ preached to the masses (and the religious leaders of His time), the Pharisees rightly asked him by what authority he could make such outlandish pronouncements. He had God the Father as His authority.
The reason why Believers and non-Believers have such a hard time discussing just about anything of a serious nature is that they can’t agree on Authority.
My authority is the Scriptures. If I can’t back up my beliefs with Scripture, then I need to keep my mouth shut. When non-believers base their authority on personal experience with hypocritical Christians or some flavor-of-the-month humanist author, then I know that there will be no commonality with which to frame a meaningful discussion. All I can do at that point is hope to convince that person, like C.S. Lewis often did, that the Scriptures are authentic and applicable.
August 5th, 2006 at 5:56 pm
All gods and allahs and jesus’ are fake heros and those who worship them are “hero wordshippers”. There is no god or jesus or zeus or any other hero god. Its all made up and fake…..where are the dinasours…..in the creation story.
If there is a fall from grace we better get busy figuring out just what”grace” is? All this made up stuff after that fact is called “dual-mind”….we are all dual-minded individuals removed from devine mind….NO GODS THERE….IN THE ETERNAL THERE!
I HAVE BEEN IN A DIFFERENT REALITY WITH BLISS AND ECTASY….THERE WAS NO GOD THERE….ONLY GODLINESS…..WE ARE REMOVED FROM GODLINESS …THAT IS WHAT GRACE IS ITS THE DOOR OF GODLINESS.
THERE IS NO GOD!
August 5th, 2006 at 10:37 pm
I’m so happy that there are some sane people left.
Thank god? (I’m agnostic)
And so sad that the insanity of mindless indoctrination on unprotected minds is so prevalent.
Your site is a whiff of fresh air
Thank you
August 5th, 2006 at 11:20 pm
Well, when I came here, I wasn’t able to watch the video clip… But this discussion makes me want to watch the movie. Michael Moore has never failed me.
It seems like I’m a rare breed of Christian… I’m not Conservative and I like to keep an open mind. I’m not saying that all Christians are close-minded… but the ones we’re discussing are.
Lady Cooper, your description of bible camp disturbs me.
Depite what a lot of people are saying, lately, gays aren’t hurting anyone. If you think they’re going to Hell, keep it to yourself. I don’t even believe in a Hell, so I don’t really care! What they do in their own bedrooms makes no difference to me, you, or (believe it or not) God. I’m pretty sure He has a lot more to deal with than two men loving each other. Shouldn’t we just be happy that there is love in that relationship?
What is really against God is a man who beats his wife and doesn’t really love her. THAT is sin.
Sorry for getting off the subject a little…
What bugs me about people like the ones in “Jesus Camp” is that they base all of their politics and radical views on what someone tells them. And if you try to tell them otherwise, your opinions are crock and you’re going to Hell.
They make no sense, anyway. Ask one of them to try to explain their views, and it’s a bunch of nonsense.
Sorry if I don’t sound as educated as all of you… I’m only fifteen. Not all youth is corrupted and brainwashed!!
–Jawska.
P.S. Ignorance is no excuse for being stupid.
August 5th, 2006 at 11:45 pm
Jawska:
You call yourself a Christian (a follower of Christ), but you don’t believe in Hell. In the Gospels, Christ talks about Hell on numerous occasions. You are young, and you are open-minded. My advice is to read the Scriptures and get someone to help you understand them. Then you can have an informed opinion. Life is about seeking the Truth. Good luck on your journey.
August 6th, 2006 at 1:32 am
I appreciate the high level of intelligence and understanding exhibited here.
If I may I’ll ask a question, to those of you, who are of a religious belief.
Did you find that belief by yourselves, or was it a product of the influences upon you?
I ask this with all due respect.
I, myself, have no leanings towards any religion or any belief in a “Godâ€.
Nor do I reject or demean those who have.
I am a product of a marriage, of two vastly differing societies and two intelligent and caring individuals, and brought up in two countries with huge economic and social differences.
My parents never forced their opinions upon me, but nevertheless influenced me in different ways.
As did the various societies I had the luck to live in.
I had to think for myself to resolve all the conflicting data that was consistently bombarding my young mind.
Thus I’m fairly certain that my morals and thoughts are mine.
Not absolutely, but good enough to get through this life.
I find this a very precious gift and wish it upon every child.
August 6th, 2006 at 12:11 pm
Whatever opinions expressed here are of the DUAL-MIND TYPE. ALL PEOPLE MAKING COMMENTS HERE ARE OF RIGHT WRONG MIND. THEY ARE BASICALLY ALL THE SAME JUST DIFFERENT SIDES.
Humans have been formatted since early times with the same mind set. Humans are really Hue-mans with a third eye deactivated that is there for use to view Aura. Aura discloses the true energy field of the hue-man in its habitat in a energy field way. We have a viewer and a knowledge of “all that is”when we are operating at 100% in our more than pure environment….our problem is the infection of the dual-mind process that keeps us HUE-MANS at10% of our true heritage.
Our fall from “GRACE” is our reason for ALL OUR CONFUSION and SEARCH THROUGH OCCULTISM to find our true format.
Nagual wars of 1777 are about real hue-mans getting eliminated by the hue-man beings with the foreign installation known as the DUAL-MIND! tHATS US….THE ONES RUINING THE ENVIRONMENT BECAUSE THEY ARE OUT OF ORDER WITH THE ENVIRONMENT ORDER OF THINGS!
NAMASTE
August 6th, 2006 at 12:18 pm
IF YOU KNEW YOUR GOD YOU WOULD NOT HAVE TO BELIEVE!
BELIEF IS DISSING A GOD!
THERE IS ONLY ONE WAY BACK TO GODLINESS AND THE FEELING OF “ALL THAT IS”….KUNDALINI RISING FIND IT!
KUNDALINI RISING IS YOU COMPLETING YOUR PHYSICAL FEATURES THAT THE BODY POSSESS.
KUNDALINI IS ANOTHER BODY PART
KUNDALINI NEEDS TO BE ACTIVATED BEYOND THE GONADS!
HUMANS ARE GONAD MINDED!
NAMASTE EGO FLURISHERS……..GONAD SEEKERS…LOL
August 6th, 2006 at 2:55 pm
FanofCSLewis Says:
“Jawska:
You call yourself a Christian (a follower of Christ), but you don’t believe in Hell. In the Gospels, Christ talks about Hell on numerous occasions. You are young, and you are open-minded. My advice is to read the Scriptures and get someone to help you understand them. Then you can have an informed opinion. Life is about seeking the Truth. Good luck on your journey. ”
Thank you for the advice. I call myself a Christian because I believe Christ died for my (and everyone’s) sins, as this is what Christianity is… I do not remember Hell having anything to do with my Christianity. Even if there is a Hell, why would it matter to me? Is saving me from Hell not what Jesus died for? Perhaps you would like it better if I called myself something else… This is just how I interpret my religion, and I don’t think I need help “understanding”, as you suggested.
All I need to know is that I love my God and He loves me. If God thinks I need a little more than that, He will seek me out.
But again, thank you.
August 6th, 2006 at 4:18 pm
Jawska:
One last thing, and I’ll leave you alone…
There’s nothing wrong with admitting that you need help understanding. I’m 48 years old, and seek guidance and understanding everyday. I wish I had all the answers, but obviously I don’t. I can probably learn something from you as well. I was just suggesting to read the Scriptures yourself instead of listening to all the extreme skeptics out there. (By the way, I see nothing wrong with taking a skeptical viewpoint in your search for Truth.)
Christ’s redemptive work on the cross saved us from something. What did He save us from? The Scriptures claim that He saved us from eternal damnation. “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you shall be saved.” The converse is that if one does not believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, one shall not be saved.
So, as Christians, why should the concept of Hell be applicable to you or me? For one, it is good to know what we are being saved from? Secondly, it just might be very important to those non-believing souls that we are commanded to love.
August 7th, 2006 at 7:48 pm
Of course there’s nothing wrong in admitting I need help understanding. If I thought I did, I would admit it.
Since you have decided to end this conversation, that is where I leave it.
August 7th, 2006 at 9:13 pm
You guys have never experienced truth or ur heritage ur ego trippers lost on what you think is a path but its just another trail!
August 8th, 2006 at 9:50 pm
My children went to Becky Fisher’s camp last year. I, like you, have a huge problem with people doing dumb things in the name of religion. Remember, however, that the camp was filmed by a secular crew and, just like you want to be given the benefit of the doubt when the full context of one of your statements is not presented, Becky deserves the same. The preaching at the camp was very good stuff and did not play on kid’s fears. In fact, these kids are some of the most confident, optimistic, and couragous children you will ever meet. Does the devil want to take the young? Of course. Do my children know that? Of course. Are they scared? No. They walk with a surety of their relationship with Jesus and are not scared of terrorists, demons or the media. We could use more of that today.
August 9th, 2006 at 9:36 am
Tim O’brien
Belief…..you think your god would like it if it knew you had doubt….you don’t know your god? You believe there is a god…you don’t know ….you teach hope…you don’t know….you think those children don’t see your doubt and disbelief in your idea of a god…..unless you can produce your god you should HAVE KNOWLEDGE OF YOUR GOD…..NOT SOME DUUFESS THAT ALSO BELIEVES…..BELIEVING IS THE MOST DISRESPECTFUL THING YOU CAN DO TO A GOD….HAVE HOPE THERE IS ONE….UR WRIONG SO ALL THE PREP THE KIDS SEE THRU AND YOU BECOME JUST ANOTHER DUMB IDEA!~
August 10th, 2006 at 8:54 pm
I know some of the kids who went to Becky Fisher’s camp last summer. They are great kids. Please remember that film can be manipulated. Wouldn’t it be nice to see not only the whole film, but the whole 200 hours of cuts that didn’t make it into the finished product?
August 25th, 2006 at 1:09 am
Alcari Says:
“Sometimes, I just feel the incredible urge to go to one of those meetings, and constantly ask “why?â€, “How?†and “But isn’t that…?â€
Most Christians hardly know what they “believe†and haven’t really thought about it either. Really, if you want to have a fun day AND piss of someone you probably won’t like, ask some who just came out of church why they believe.”
I know you said “most Christians”, but most Christians I know do know why they believe.
I for one am a born again Christian, and was once a Christian bashing atheist. I am not calling any atheist here a Christian basher, but I was. I took pleasure in ridiculing, and humiliating them. Mind you none them returned my cruelty. I was mean, self-centered, and egotistical.
I had no religious upbringing. My conversion came from years of philosophical debate, and thought. (There are some brilliant Christian philosophers, and apologists out there.) That and I do believe the Holly Spirit was working on my heart as well, even though I did not believe in nor knew anything about the Holly Spirit at the time.
It would take up to much time and space to debate the merits of Christianity here. For those of you with open minds who would like to listen to or read from some intelligent well-spoken Christians I recommend the following:
Greg Koukl: Has a call-in radio show/podcast. He loves to debate theology, and was once an atheist. http://www.str.org
Hank Hanegraaff, aka The Bible Answer Man: Bible and biblical history expert. Also has a call-in radio show/podcast, and was also once an atheist. http://www.equip.org
Alistair Begg: A brilliant Scottish preacher. You can listen to his sermons at http://www.truthforlife.com.
C.S. Lewis: One of the most famous atheists turned Christian. He wrote one of the best books on the Christian faith: *Mere Christianity*. This book will make anyone think, and helped change my view of Christians. Read this book and you will never again believe all Christians are unintelligent. Of course his friend JRR Tolkien (another brilliant Christian) helped bring C.S. Lewis to faith in Jesus.
Here is a simple but helpful prayer to help anyone on their quest for God: “God if you are there please show me. God please reveal your truth to me.â€
August 27th, 2006 at 7:53 am
First of all, let me begin by saying that every Christian needs to read the Scriptures. It doesn’t matter what your age is or how much you think you know about Christianity. The Bible states in verse 11 of Acts 17, “These were more noble minded than those in Thessalonica for they received the Word with great eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see whether these things were so.”
Secondly, the Devil’s fall from was because of his Pride and attempted overthrow of God. He absolutely exists and uses fear, doubt, disbelief, pain, suffering and even joy in his war against God. Although I’d rather not quote a movie as a source, this line is relevant and true. “The greatest trick the Devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn’t exist.†(The Usual Suspects)
Lastly, even though I don’t agree with the incoherent ramblings of the vast majority of the posters here, I especially want to pose a question to the posters who allowed their children to go to this camp. What are the Pastors credentials? I went to the Jesus Camp website, the Christ Triumphant Church’s website, the F.I.R.E. Center’s website, as well as other various websites. Despite the overload of information available in this day and age, I couldn’t find the Seminary “Pastor†Becky Fischer went to. The Christ Triumphant Church’s accreditation from the Association of Theological Schools also eluded my search efforts.
In 2 Timothy 4:1-5 Paul summarizes the requirements of a faithful preacher: “I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by His appearing and His kingdom: preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort, with great patience and instruction. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires; and will turn away their ears from the truth, and will turn aside to myths. But you, be sober in all things, endure hardship, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry. ”
Have you ever read this? Since you sent your children to this camp, I am guessing not.
In Hosea chapter 4 we read this, “Listen to the Word of the Lord, O sons of Israel, for the Lord has a case against the inhabitants of the land because there is no faithfulness or kindness, or knowledge of God. They’re swearing, deception, murder, stealing and adultery.”
August 27th, 2006 at 10:57 am
“First of all, let me begin by saying that every Christian needs to read the Scriptures. It doesn’t matter what your age is or how much you think you know about Christianity. The Bible states in verse 11 of Acts 17, “These were more noble minded than those in Thessalonica for they received the Word with great eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see whether these things were so.—
You say that age doesn’t matter. So why force you’re children to swallow this stuff young. Would it not be better to give them unbiased information to make their own decisions, and have them read more into it if they choose (when they are old enough to know what they’re doing).
“Secondly, the Devil’s fall from was because of his Pride and attempted overthrow of God. He absolutely exists and uses fear, doubt, disbelief, pain, suffering and even joy in his war against God. Although I’d rather not quote a movie as a source, this line is relevant and true. “The greatest trick the Devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn’t exist.†(The Usual Suspects)”
This is not an argument. You’ll find no one here is impressed by your because Jesus said so logic.
August 27th, 2006 at 11:01 am
“Lastly, even though I don’t agree with the incoherent ramblings of the vast majority of the posters here, I especially want to pose a question to the posters who allowed their children to go to this camp.”
Name calling also is not a valid argument. You simply dismiss viewpoints you are unwilling to even think about examining as incoherant ramblings.
August 27th, 2006 at 5:16 pm
Your Father Says:
“You say that age doesn’t matter. So why force you’re children to swallow this stuff young. Would it not be better to give them unbiased information to make their own decisions, and have them read more into it if they choose (when they are old enough to know what they’re doing).”
Proverbs 22:6 states; “Train up a child in the way he should go, even when he is old he will not depart from it.”
Your Father Says:
“This is not an argument. You’ll find no one here is impressed by your because Jesus said so logic.”
If no one here is impressed by what Jesus said, then no one here is a Christian. In order to have a Christian discussion, one must believe the Bible is the final authority on every matter.
August 27th, 2006 at 7:41 pm
“If no one here is impressed by what Jesus said, then no one here is a Christian. In order to have a Christian discussion, one must believe the Bible is the final authority on every matter.”
A majority of the people on using this site are atheists/agnostics. (it’s called “religious freaks”…) You’re preaching beliefs for the sake of beliefs. There’s no objective criticism, no logic, and certainly no valid arguments.
Instead of just saying what to believe, argue why we should believe… Maybe why you believe and what makes sense about your beliefs.
As it seems now, you sound like one of these brainwashed children with no idea why you believe what you do.
August 27th, 2006 at 10:43 pm
Two Cool Guys:
1. C.S. Lewis
2. Garry Larson
Two Foolish Guys:
1. Jim Bakker
2. Michael Moore
Talented Guys Who Are Out to Lunch:
1. Mel Gibson
2. Tom Cruise
August 28th, 2006 at 6:03 pm
Your Father Says:
“Instead of just saying what to believe, argue why we should believe… Maybe why you believe and what makes sense about your beliefs.”
Fair enough, I’ll tell you why I believe.
Unfortunately, my family never pressured me into any particular way of thought in regards to religion. In fact, my family is one of the most non-Christian families I know. I came to believe in Jesus Christ on my own. No outside pressure from friends, family or society.
Like many of the posters here, I probably grew up more atheist than anything. I trusted science over God. I said if God created everything, who created God? I asked why does He allow pain, suffering and death? Well, three near death expericences later, I have found those answers. I have found those answers and the answers to every question ever posed. It is in a thick book called the Bible.
To address Jawska, yes God does care what two men do in the bedroom, he says it plain as day in Leviticus 18:22 “Do not have sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman; that is detestable.”
I believe in the Bible because it is an accurate account of the Creation, Jesus’ life, and the end times. Being a Christian has made me healthier, happier, smarter, richer and prepared for eternal life in paradise. The question is, Where do you want to go?
August 28th, 2006 at 6:24 pm
“Like many of the posters here, I probably grew up more atheist than anything. I trusted science over God. I said if God created everything, who created God? I asked why does He allow pain, suffering and death? Well, three near death expericences later, I have found those answers. I have found those answers and the answers to every question ever posed. It is in a thick book called the Bible.”
I just don’t get it. Now, I’m not calling you a liar, but I’m not exactly convinced about what you’re saying. Was it that three near death experiences caused you to become so frightened about death that you couldn’t live with the logical belief you held before hand?
“Like many of the posters here, I probably grew up more atheist than anything. I trusted science over God. I said if God created everything, who created God? I asked why does He allow pain, suffering and death? Well, three near death expericences later, I have found those answers. I have found those answers and the answers to every question ever posed. It is in a thick book called the Bible.”
There are many books out there that give “answers” like the bible. Why don’t you believe in the greek pantheon of gods, or budhism, or fly spaghetti monsterism? All three are equally valid, and would relieve your fear of death.
“I believe in the Bible because it is an accurate account of the Creation, Jesus’ life, and the end times. Being a Christian has made me healthier, happier, smarter, richer and prepared for eternal life in paradise. The question is, Where do you want to go?”
Why do you think it’s more accurate than the others? What makes it so special? There’s no actual evidence that Jesus even existed, and the existence of the bible doesn’t count. All other religions and cults have similar scripts and they are mutually exclusive.
As far as making you healthier, and all that jazz, could it not just be a placebo effect compounded with the bliss of believing in a fairy tale. I’m sure I’d be happier if I still believed in santa. The question is, do you want to face reality?
August 28th, 2006 at 7:33 pm
Man of God:
You said:
‘To address Jawska, yes God does care what two men do in the bedroom, he says it plain as day in Leviticus 18:22 “Do not have sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman; that is detestable.‒
But doesn’t Leviticus give explicit instructions regarding a lot of things that most Christians do not follow? Do you do any of these things:
1) Refuse to eat pork?
2) Follow the guidelines for ritual sacrifice (including humans)?
3) Put to death adulterers and children who curse their parents (Leviticus 20:9-10)?
4) Prohibit the handicap from approaching an alter? (Leviticus 21:16-23)
I could go on and on. Leviticus is full of strange laws that no Christian I know follows. But for some reason they latch on to the rather small mention of homosexuality.
If you don’t do these things, why should we take the prohibition against male homosexuality seriously? Why is it that Christians get to pick and choose the passages that they follow?
August 29th, 2006 at 3:53 pm
Everything in the Bible must be taken in context. Both Christians and non-Christians throw out verses, sometimes carelessly, in order to make their particular point.
In Leviticus, God speaks to the Israelite people about how to live, mostly to preserve their existence. There are many dietary laws and rituals that are given to the people in order to preserve the nation of Israel. It goes without saying that many of the Levitical laws do not apply to us today.
God is clear in Leviticus that homosexuality is detestable in His sight. So, the questions are: Does God feel the same way today as He did then? Does God even change? Do New Testament writings support the same view about homosexuality? How is God’s command about eating pork different from His command about two men having sex with each other?
August 29th, 2006 at 4:17 pm
Or maybe the Bible isn’t the word of God and was written by humans. Maybe the Bible simply reflects the cultural biases of its myriad of non-contemporary authors who wouldn’t agree with each other what truth is, be it moral truth or metaphysical truth. Maybe each generation has interpreted the same passages differently to reflect new cultural biases. Maybe we should put the books contained within into historical context and then decide if any parts of it (despite centuries of compiling, editing, revising, and translating) apply to anything we experience in the modern world. In short, maybe we shouldn’t rely on the Bible as a source of truth at all and definitely as a reason to restrict the rights of others.
August 29th, 2006 at 4:48 pm
FanOfCSLewis,
You said:
“God is clear in Leviticus that homosexuality is detestable in His sight. So, the questions are: Does God feel the same way today as He did then? Does God even change? Do New Testament writings support the same view about homosexuality? How is God’s command about eating pork different from His command about two men having sex with each other?”
One could easily interpret the prohibition against male homosexuality as being similar in nature to the prohibition against eating pork. It was likely more of a public health issue than anything else. Anal sex is known for spreading disease (without a condom) more so than other forms of sex.
Note that nothing is said about women and homosexuality. This suggests to me that it isn’t necessarily homosexuality that is the problem, but anal intercourse in particular.
August 30th, 2006 at 7:01 am
You Father Says:
“I just don’t get it. Now, I’m not calling you a liar, but I’m not exactly convinced about what you’re saying. Was it that three near death experiences caused you to become so frightened about death that you couldn’t live with the logical belief you held before hand?â€
It was not with a fear of death that I found Jesus. It was looking back on my experiences that I realized He was looking out for me. I am not afraid of death, quite the opposite actually. I look forward to living and worshipping with Jesus in paradise, however, do not confuse that with a wish to die. I enjoy my life on Earth with my friends and family. I even enjoy living with atheists, agnostics, Buddhists, Muslims, Jews and all other non-believers, for this life is the only one we will have together. Matthew 25:46 says “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”
Your Father Says:
“Why do you think it’s more accurate than the others? What makes it so special? There’s no actual evidence that Jesus even existed, and the existence of the bible doesn’t count. All other religions and cults have similar scripts and they are mutually exclusive.â€
Psalm 14:1 states “The fool [a] says in his heart, ‘There is no God.’ They are corrupt, their deeds are vile; there is no one who does good.†Even your fellow atheist and Darwin follower Prof. Richard Dawkins, states: “We have seen that living things are too improbable and too beautifully ‘designed’ to have come into existence by chance.â€
The following excerpt is from A Muslim Looks at Muhammad and Jesus: The story of Abdul Saleeb and what he discovered about Islam and Christianity. “But for me the most impressive factor about Christ was the multitude of Old Testament prophecies about the coming of the Messiah. Some of these prophecies were so specific and they were fulfilled in the life of Jesus to such a detail that it amazed me to see how God had taken hundreds of years of Jewish history to prepare the coming of the Messiah; prophecies ranging from Messiah’s ancestry, his manner and place of birth, his life and ministry to the circumstances surrounding his death by crucifixion. I was very attracted to Christ and yet I could not deny my own tradition and past. Becoming Christian seemed a definite betrayal of my own family and Islamic heritage. The tension in my life was so strong that I felt torn asunder between these two faiths.†There are approximately 332 Old Testament prophecies that Jesus fulfilled.
Your Father Says:
“As far as making you healthier, and all that jazz, could it not just be a placebo effect compounded with the bliss of believing in a fairy tale. I’m sure I’d be happier if I still believed in Santa. The question is, do you want to face reality?â€
Jesus answered them, “It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. Luke 5:31
Sidfaiwu Says:
“In short, maybe we shouldn’t rely on the Bible as a source of truth at all and definitely as a reason to restrict the rights of others.â€
Have you made up your mind about the gospel? Are you like Ahaz who told Isaiah, “I have made up my mind. Don’t disturb me. Don’t tell me facts”? I have spoken to some people about the gospel, but they have made up their minds, and they ask me not to disturb them. They do not want to listen to me. But when God sends someone to speak to us, he is demonstrating his love for us. In spite of our problems, difficulties, wickedness, and unbelief, God loves us enough to send someone to us. And what does he say? “Be careful. Be calm. Don’t be afraid. Everything will be all right. I will help you. You will stand by faith and trust in the sovereign Lord, rather than in this little Assyrian power.” By P. G. Mathew, M.A., M.Div., Th.M.
August 31st, 2006 at 4:42 pm
Matthew,
You raise a good point. I would like to investigate that further by looking at other Scriptures that deal with the subject. Could you or someone else supply me with some evidence in the Bible that sodomy is OK?
By the way, I do believe that God forgives all sinners, including sodomites, adulterers, tax cheats, liars, drunkards, child molesters, and even murderers.
August 31st, 2006 at 7:10 pm
FanofCSLewis,
You said:
“You raise a good point. I would like to investigate that further by looking at other Scriptures that deal with the subject. Could you or someone else supply me with some evidence in the Bible that sodomy is OK?”
I don’t think the Bible says the sodomy is “OK.” It ranks it along side of eating pork. It is unclean.
I do, however, think the Bible says that homosexuality is OK. Or at least it makes no prohibition against it. The Bible does not say that men should not have sexual relations. It says that a man should not lay down with another man as he would with a woman (no penetration).
Note that not all homosexual men engage in sodomy
August 31st, 2006 at 9:21 pm
Man of God Says:
“It was not with a fear of death that I found Jesus. It was looking back on my experiences that I realized He was looking out for me. I am not afraid of death, quite the opposite actually. I look forward to living and worshipping with Jesus in paradise, however, do not confuse that with a wish to die.”
Ok, I did not imply that you ARE afraid of death, I implied that you WERE afraid of death, before you decided to believe in a fairy tale to help you sleep at night, and I certainly never implied that you wanted to die. The only thing looking out for you was chance. For every time you didn’t die, millions of people suffered and died horrible deaths. Where was Jesus to save them? (a rhetoric question… I don’t really want more scriptures and optimistic interpretations thrown at me)
August 31st, 2006 at 9:34 pm
Man of God said:
“… There are approximately 332 Old Testament prophecies that Jesus fulfilled.”
When I said mutually exclusive, I meant to stuff that wasn’t in a book you already believe in. I can make up a book, and have another book fulfill it’s prophecies too! You proove nothing… There’s billions of people that don’t believe in either of your books. What makes christianity any more believable than the greek pantheon, I’m fairly sure they didn’t mention Jesus (but who knows, I’m sure you can find a lovely interpretation if you try hard enough). If you were born in that era, you’d eat up that crap instead, because it was the social norm.
“Jesus answered them, “It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. Luke 5:31″
Did I say you needed a doctor? Are you even talking to me? wtf are you talking about?
September 1st, 2006 at 9:31 am
Hello Man of God,
Thanks for the offer of an explanation of the Gospels. I have already read John and did not find much in the way of truth in that book. I also know that John is the most supernatural account of the four Gospels (there were more than four, but they didn’t survive popular consent in the 2nd and 3rd centuries) and the one that most ardently supports the claim that Jesus was a deity. So I guess you can say that I have made up my mind. If you do have some facts that support the validity of elements in the Gospels I’d be glad to take them into consideration, but there is much that they would have to overcome.
September 1st, 2006 at 9:47 am
Man of God said:
“Like many of the posters here, I probably grew up more atheist than anything.”
Actually I grew up as a devout Christian. I actively told all my non-christian friends that they were wrong and needed to accept Christ or they would suffer in the afterlife. I constantly wondered why all these people in the world just couldn’t see that they were wrong. I believed that the gospels were correct. Unfortunately I also believed that dinosaurs existed 65 million years before humans made the scene. I believed that the universe was quantumly banged into existence 14 Billion years ago, and that no human alive for thousands of generations from now would ever even see the sun blink out. I believed all this together with no conflicts. I took the creation and the apocolypse as just stories. Even in the bible no one was mentioned writing anything for quite a long time after the creation, so I thought “How could anyone actually know? They just wrote a very nice story that was doing justice to god.” The end of the world? Prophecies don’t always come true. I thought Revelations to be a warning of what would happen if the world became to evil. It could be averted, it wasn’t the end. I never really talked about this with too many people, but neither my mother and our priest at the time thought there was not a problem with me believing these things and still being a christian. I had accepted Jesus, the rest of the bible be damned, I was right with the correct parts. Then an arch-bishop visited our church to speak with people. He was especially interested in what the children’s beliefs were. When he got to me he was down right outraged. How could I not take it all literally. I told him that the science was there, was tested time and again and still held up. I told him that regardless of what I thought of the begining of time, I was still a good Christian. He would hear none of it and gave me a choice. Science or god. I couldn’t have both, I had to choose. He left it for me to decide. I went to church for only a few more times before I made the decision. After reading the bible a bit further, I decided not to give up the real world for a fairy tale. That’s where I’m coming from.
Man of God said:
“To address Jawska, yes God does care what two men do in the bedroom, he says it plain as day in Leviticus 18:22 “Do not have sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman; that is detestable.—
I know its been stated a few other times that leviticus has some odd laws that no christians follow, which is then countered by the Christians that “being gay is universily considered an abomination”. But hey look at this. If we’re going to use the abomination to you and god bit as the decider then every christian I know is doomed.
Leviticus 11:9-12 These shall ye eat of all that are in the waters: whatsoever hath fins and scales in the waters, in the seas, and in the rivers, them shall ye eat. And all that have not fins and scales in the seas, and in the rivers, of all that move in the waters, and of any living thing which is in the waters, they shall be an abomination unto you: They shall be even an abomination unto you; ye shall not eat of their flesh, but ye shall have their carcases in abomination. Whatsoever hath no fins nor scales in the waters, that shall be an ABOMINATION unto you.
Shrimp, crab, lobster, clams, mussels, all these are an abomination before the Lord, just as gays are an abomination. Kinda makes you think doesn’t it, while you’re eating Multigrain bread that was grown in the same field, tilled by a mule, wearing your half-cotton, half-wool blend shirt.
Man of God said:
“… There are approximately 332 Old Testament prophecies that Jesus fulfilled.â€
You’d be surprised how many people fufilled those in those days (and how many things the gospels said Jesus fulfilled that were mentioned nowhere else but the gospels). Quite a few virgin births that resulted in men healing the sick, feeding the hungry and performing miracles. Come to think of it, there’s no record anywhere that says my mother’s husband is infact my father. Hey, I might be a virgin birth too! Though after that recent preist, I don’t think I need to try walking on water.
September 1st, 2006 at 8:34 pm
(Hi this is my first post here *waves*) I grew up as a Southern Baptist and like Humanistic Jones says I was very evangelical and lost several friends through things like. Sorry to get off the subject that you guys are on, but on the subject of Bible camp, I had to go to church camp for years. Actually I enjoyed it and wanted to go, I de-converted and then this summer I attended Falls Creek Youth camp and boy was I shocked out how different it all seemed, it seemed like a huge brainwashing/money-making scheme to me. So I really can’t see this documentary as being to far from the truth.
Now back to the subject at hand I believe someone mentioned the morality of homosexuality. How many admonishments do most christians say there are towards homosexuality in the bible, well I don’t know the exact number. However, I do know that there are far more towards heterosexuals. Could this not mean that “god” only thinks that heterosexuals need to be watched more because they are apt to get into more trouble?
Anyway, just my thought on the subject, they are sure to be biased as they are coming from a bisexual teen, but whatever.
September 4th, 2006 at 7:44 am
Your Father Says:
“I can make up a book, and have another book fulfill it’s prophecies too! You proove nothing… “
Jewish historian Flavius Josephus, a member of a priestly family and who became a Pharisee at the age of 19, became the court historian for Emperor Vespasian. In the Antiquities, he wrote about many persons and events of first century Palestine. He makes two references to Jesus. The first reference is believed associated with the Apostle James. “…he brother of Jesus, who was called Christ.” He also wrote, “At this time there was a wise man who was called Jesus. And his conduct was good and (he) was known to be virtuous. And many people from among the Jews and other nations became his disciples. Pilate condemned him to be crucified and to die. And those who had become his disciples did not abandon his discipleship. They reported that he had appeared to them three days after his crucifixion and that he was alive, accordingly, he was perhaps the messiah concerning whom the prophets have recounted wonders.” These historical writings predated the Old Testament. Josephus died in 97 A.D.
Before Tacitus, Suetonius or Josephus, Thallus wrote about the crucifixion of Jesus. His writing date to circa 52 A.D. and the passage on Jesus was contained in Thallus’ work on the Eastern Mediterranean world from the Trojan War to 52 A.D. Thallus noted that darkness fell on the land at the time of the crucifixion. He wrote that such a phenomenon was caused by an eclipse. Though Christ was not proclaimed a deity until the fourth century, Pliny the Younger, a Roman author and administrator who served as the governor of Bithynia in Asia Minor, wrote in 112 A.D., two hundred years before the “deity” proclamation, that Christians in Bithynia worshipped Christ.
So, according to factual, historical information that was written well before the New Testament, a man named Jesus Christ actually lived and was actually crucified. Documentation of Christ’s life and death that would suggest the New Testament was not a fictional work, but a more detailed account of the Redeemer.
Your Father Says:
Did I say you needed a doctor? Are you even talking to me? wtf are you talking about?
Maybe the rest of the verse will bring the full meaning into plain view for you….”It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.” Luke 5:31
Humanistic Jones Says:
Since Leviticus is being scrutinized so much and arguing about context of the message will only lead to further disagreement, maybe another passage will help clarify God’s standards.
1 Corinthians 6:9-10 states, “Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.â€
Humanistic Jones Says:
Man of God said:
‘… There are approximately 332 Old Testament prophecies that Jesus fulfilled.’
“You’d be surprised how many people fufilled those in those days (and how many things the gospels said Jesus fulfilled that were mentioned nowhere else but the gospels). Quite a few virgin births that resulted in men healing the sick, feeding the hungry and performing miracles. Come to think of it, there’s no record anywhere that says my mother’s husband is infact my father. Hey, I might be a virgin birth too! Though after that recent preist, I don’t think I need to try walking on water. “
Listing all 332 prophecies will take too much time and space. I am not arguing the ambiguousness of some of them (i.e. Meek and humble, Isaiah 42:12 and tender and compassionate, Isaiah 40:11), however, there are some that only the Messiah could and would fulfill. Since it seems the average non-believer, or gentile as the bible calls them, will only entertain what they consider to be factual or historical, non-Scripture based material; I offer the following prophecyâ€
Jesus would be executed by crucifixion:
Isaiah 53:12 says:
“Therefore I will give him a portion among the great, and he will divide the spoils with the strong, because he poured out his life unto death, and was numbered with the transgressors. For he bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.â€
And as historical accounts have proven, a man named Jesus was crucified and buried. The following probabilities are taken from Peter Stoner in Science Speaks (Moody Press, 1963) to show that coincidence is ruled out by the science of probability. Stoner says that by using the modern science of probability in reference to eight prophecies, ‘we find that the chance that any man might have lived down to the present time and fulfilled all eight prophecies is 1 in 1017.” That would be 1 in 100,000,000,000,000,000. In order to help us comprehend this staggering probability, Stoner illustrates it by supposing that “we take 1017 silver dollars and lay them on the face of Texas. They will cover all of the state two feet deep.
“Now mark one of these silver dollars and stir the whole mass thoroughly, all over the state. Blindfold a man and tell him that he can travel as far as he wishes, but he must pick up one silver dollar and say that this is the right one. What chance would he have of getting the right one? Just the same chance that the prophets would have had of writing these eight prophecies and having them all come true in any one man.”
September 4th, 2006 at 11:42 am
I will send my son to the devil’s camo to learn that there is no GOD ,you should understand people that there is no GOD.
September 5th, 2006 at 12:23 am
Man of God said:
“Jewish historian Flavius Josephus, a member of a priestly family and who became a Pharisee at the age of 19, became the court historian for Emperor Vespasian. In the Antiquities, he wrote about many persons and events of first century Palestine…”
I can’t believe I read that whole thing. You just don’t get it. I’m not arguing that. You can’t justify stories with stories, plain and simple.
Have you ever played the telephone game? If not I’ll explain it. It is where people tell a phrase or story to each other privately, in a circle, and by the time it gets back to the person who started it, the phrase is often completely different.
This is especially important when it comes to ancient beliefs. People tend to believe what they want to believe, and will not hesitate to embellish where necessary. People also want to be able to explain things about the world are them. 2000 years ago, people had no other way to explain things, other than these stories.
Obviously you’ve studies a lot to try and justify your beliefs, most likely because they comfort you (everyone has their own reason, this is the most common). Do you really think you’ve studied the topic objectively? I don’t. You dig and dig for validation, and ignore mountains of inconsistencies and poor logic.
I’m not going to argue about the existence of a creator. That is a complicated and not so easily ignored topic, but these stories about angels and the devil and a half man half god with super powers are crazy, and no one believes them unless they really really want to (unfortunately there’s a surplus of these people).
September 5th, 2006 at 12:41 am
“And as historical accounts have proven, a man named Jesus was crucified and buried. The following probabilities are taken from Peter Stoner in Science Speaks (Moody Press, 1963) to show that coincidence is ruled out by the science of probability.”
Once again, these ancient historical account HAVE NOT proven anything. They are stories, maybe BASED ON true events and maybe not. There is no way to prove it without a time machine, because no current actual scientific or forensic methods can prove them. I’m not sure who that man was, but I’m sure he’s not a scientist in the truest sense of the word. Calling probabilities about stories science is not the action of a true scientist.
My point is, the probability is based on the assumption that all of the information about both the prophecies and Jesus are %100 true, and this CAN NOT be proven.
September 9th, 2006 at 8:58 pm
Man, this trailer gave me the CREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEPS.
Religion is going to determine who gets into the white house now..
Now we’re all fucked.
September 9th, 2006 at 9:55 pm
Howdy! I found your site (and this post) today, and am disappointed to learn that the video is no longer available on YouTube, at least the version/instance you’ve linked to/embedded. It sounds like it contains/contained footage that wasn’t in the trailer I’ve seen, and I’m very interested in seeing it (both the trailer and the movie).
Some of the quotes from commenters here are definitely not in video/materials I’ve been able to find elsewhere. Is there a chance I could convince you/someone else here to find this version of the trailer again and repost it? (Thanks in advance!)
Based on the reviews I’ve read, it appears to raise a number of issues for viewers, ranging from child abuse to dominionism to “media persecution of Christians.” I’m going to have to see it before I make a judgement/evaluation, but it certainly appears to give its subjects enough “rope” to “hang themselves.”
I’ve read that Ms. Fisher (the camp’s director) felt that the movie would be a good evangelism tool which seems to be directly contrary to the impressions of those who have seen it and haven’t already drank deeply of the “Deeper Christian Kool-Aid Well.”
Personally, I find it shocking to hear a twelve-year-old say that he accepted Jesus as his Personal Savior when he was five because he “wanted more of life.” How disappointed with life can one truly be at five years old? How much of life have you actually seen by five years of age? It surely sounds like he’s been spoonfed doctrine and vocabulary, and has essentially been brainwashed.
I understand and empathize with BLaZeMoNgEr’s sentiment, but I don’t think it’s time to give up hope and stop working to raise awareness of the evils of Dominionism and Christian Reconstructionism. Now is not the time to throw in the towel.
Now is the time to stand up and work towards returning America to the original intent of the Founding Fathers… Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness for ALL, irrespective of religious creed, racial origin, or socioeconomic status.
September 12th, 2006 at 11:58 am
One of the things i find extremely disturbing is when , missionarys go to places where poverty is high and convince people to convert. Tell me who wouldn’t convert for abit of food?
September 12th, 2006 at 12:38 pm
Rev. Dan said:
Now is the time to stand up and work towards returning America to the original intent of the Founding Fathers… Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness for ALL, irrespective of religious creed, racial origin, or socioeconomic status.
Huzzah to that. If we can make this counrty the secular nation it once was, where people aren’t afraid that their religion might lose members and thus cause them to lose power (this of course would be because NOONE’S religion is in charge). If we can get back to the days where people are free to worship as they please because they do it in their church pulpits and not at the science class blackboard and the senate floor. If we can return to a time where people were judged as patriots because they questioned half-thought policies and percieved injustices not because they quietly went along with everything their leader told them to. If we can get back to that, I could care less how many people are Christian, Jewish, Muslim, or what ever.
Most of my ire with organized religion comes from the harm that they do to the public with evangelism. I can’t force a friend to not eat bacon and eggs every meal every day anymore than I can convince Jerry Falwell that homosexuals are not sinful creatures. Its their personal beliefs on what is right and good. But if either tries to force me to do it or believe it because its what he feels is right, the line is drawn. Don’t like something? Change the channel, move away from it, don’t let it in your home, and don’t go looking for it. Its easier to control your own life than to expunge something you don’t like from the culture. Same goes for me. I get pretty ired by religion, but I wouldn’t dare to think that I could forbid people from being Christian because my beliefs tell me that its stupid and causes nothing but trouble. I just choose not to church, let missionaries in my house, keep a bible on the bookshelf, or watch the Christian Channels onto my TV. Its part of my persuit of happiness. I’m happy without god in my home and I pursue it.
And if you wonder, if anyone tried to outlaw any part of Christianity, I would stand up on the soapbox in christianity’s defense. That still doesn’t mean that I approve of a nativity scene at my public school (the methodist church down the road does a better one anyway) or Ten Commandments in my courtrooms (that Catholic Cathedral I went to once in Macon had a much more awesome looking representation of them anyway, much more befiting of your gods laws). I have to use and pay for public facilities, so no religion there. Your church’s property, that’s your business not mine. If they say you can’t have your stuff displayed there, I’ll protest with you.
Heh, I think my rant purge valve kinda went off there…
September 12th, 2006 at 1:01 pm
Rant away, Humanistic Jones. You speak for a lot of us in that post. We feel your frustration.
September 13th, 2006 at 1:19 pm
You liberals are good at crucifying People, Should I name a few, how about Jesus, how about George Bush? I think Becky Fischer is in good company!!
September 13th, 2006 at 1:32 pm
I spent the time to read this whole thread….
Humanistic Jones really hit it on the head!!!!!
Extremism can create real problems… Just pick up a newspaper or switch on CNN…. I have recently lost a very good friend to this sort of thing…. Severed in the Marines in the first Gulf war with him…
One Religion = Tyranny
Two Religions = Civil War
Many Religions = Peace
I used to consider myself conservative… I guess I still am in some respects… Don’t touch my guns….and make people responsible for their actions… However…This bullshit that I am going to be placed in a lake of fire forever….. (Yea Forever)… for not believing…. come on…. I simply in my greatest imagination can’t imagine a god like that… I love my family more than my life. I have gone to war for this country. I respect the Golden Rule….
I am a good person…Ah but not in gods eyes …I am a miserable sinner worthy of the worst imaginable punishment if I don’t number myself with those people in this new piece of celluloid. Sorry…Count me out!!!!
My advice … always question…. Ask the whys and the how comes, and the what if’s… It’s this all or nothing attitude…
Religion is about control.
What you think the literacy rate was 4k 2k 1k 500, 200 years ago… Things are not as they are today…
When you can’t read or write and all you care about is where your next meal is coming from and if you’re going to survive through the winter…. I am guessing you would believe just about anything…….
September 15th, 2006 at 8:21 am
Okay, I have read this entire post (to be fair enough and actually try to give an ear to all being said). Personally, I have a problem with a lot of things being said here. I will attempt to address some of them. I will attempt to do so in a loving manner - not because that was how I was raised or because I believe anyone deserves this, but because it is what my Savior taught.
First of all, if there is a fifteen year-old person who has figured out Christianity to the point that they don’t need to read Scripture or study it any more, they need to contact someone. There’s a lot of money to be made AND a lot of people to be helped by this incredibly insightful person. Most of them are over 30.
Second, let’s not confuse “religion” with “faith”. I have faith, given to me by God as a gift. I (sort of) belong to a religion, created by men to satisfy their needs to relate to God. God did not set out to create the Catholic church, nor any of the Protestant denominations - He set out to create us for relationship with Himself and each other.
Third, as to the “science or God” debate - it is stupid. Every day there are more and more scientific discoveries that lead us (those who don’t filter our scientific input to automatically exclude anything that disrupts a firm belief in naturalism/humanism/anti-religionism) to a greater wonder and marveling at how God created this universe. And there is REAL SCIENTIFIC evidence that proves that there WAS a man named Jesus of Nazareth (Christ was a designation, not his name) and that his life was pretty much as described in the Gospels (there were only 4 canonized, because they were contemporary - many of the other “gospels” were written by people whose grandparents were children when Jesus died). There is no argument, by those of us who are paying attention to the archaeological finds and evidence (archaeology is still a science, is it not?), that Jesus lived and that he lived and died pretty much where and when the Gospels say he did. Which then brings to mind the big question - IF he was just a man (btw, he was WHOLLY man AND WHOLLY God, not halvesies) and didn’t rise from the dead, why didn’t the Jews, who had the most to lose, present his body as evidence that he was dead and stayed dead? Or the Romans, who had slightly less at stake than the Jews?
As for the Bible not being reliable (since it is being called a self-contained “authority”), it has been scrutinized, criticized, researched, cross-referenced and tested in every way every other ACCEPTED historical document has been test - 5 TIMES OVER (that’s a direct quote from Greg Boyd, an apologist with his rep on the line) and it is more reliable in it’s historical accuracy than any other commonly accepted historical writing or documentation. If you refuse to believe the Bible because you don’t think it’s reliable enough, then start throwing out all of your books on Civil War history - ANYTHING you have to support a (mistaken) belief that this country was EVER a secular country.
For the separation-of-church-and-state crowd: this country was founded by Christians, on Christian beliefs and principles. Each of the founding fathers, even Thomas Jefferson who the anti-Christians love to parade about, stated at one point or another - in writing - that without religion (specifically Christianity) this country had no hope. The mention of separation of church and state was not to keep God out of our government, it was to keep the government out of the pulpit. I believe the first amendment reads guarantees us freedom OF religion, not freedom FROM it.
Finally, I would love to go through each entry and note the things that are inaccurate, due to ignorance or just plain hateful. But I’ll leave with this - anyone who thinks they don’t “believe” in a god or a religious system needs to take a REAL close look at what they DO believe in - if it’s Darwinistic evolution, that’s a bigger myth than the Spaghetti Monster. At least Darwin admitted that there IS a creator and his intent was to find where God stopped and nature took over - never was it his intent to prove there is no God.
P.S. Maybe the Greek pantheon is the way. Or Buddhism. Or Giant Spaghetti Monster. Or the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. You see, offering some silly story created out of fear (Greek gods), or a wise man (Buddha), or malice (Giant Spaghetti Monster) does NOT refute Christianity. It simply tells me that you don’t like my answer but you don’t have a viable alternative. So, don’t try to buffalo a (former) buffalo artist. I, too, grew up WAY outside the church.
September 15th, 2006 at 10:48 am
“First of all, if there is a fifteen year-old person who has figured out Christianity to the point that they don’t need to read Scripture or study it any more, they need to contact someone. There’s a lot of money to be made…”
I think the religions of the world pretty much have this making money thing down tight.
“God did not set out to create the Catholic church, nor any of the Protestant denominations - He set out to create us for relationship with Himself and each other.”
Agreement, total agreement. I will not (and never would) nit pick you on this. The worst thing man kind ever did was to take a good idea and make a religion out of it.
“Every day there are more and more scientific discoveries that lead us (those who don’t filter our scientific input to automatically exclude anything that disrupts a firm belief in naturalism/humanism/anti-religionism) to a greater wonder and marveling at how God created this universe.”
This isn’t that whole grand canyon argument again is it? The problem is that there ISN’T more and more evidence everyday pointing towards ID. Scientist just recently found a fish with pre-legs (http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2006/04/0405_060405_fish.html) and a bacteria with one of the most complex genomes ever (http://biology.plosjournals.org/perlserv/?request=get-document&doi=10.1371/journal.pbio.0040286). Scientist don’t just filter out science because it might hurt the existing theory. In fact when a blip hits on the scientific radar that screams “CONTRADICTION TO HYPOTHESIS!”, it’s watched, tested, retested and reviewed until they can either confirm it as a true false-reading or an actual chink in the theory. Science is about changes, it starts with an observation, moves to hypothesis, testing, theorizing, and debate. Religion (and Intelligent Design) starts with a preformed conclusion and picks only the data that supports it.
“And there is REAL SCIENTIFIC evidence that proves that there WAS a man named Jesus of Nazareth”
“As for the Bible not being reliable (since it is being called a self-contained “authorityâ€), it has been scrutinized, criticized, researched, cross-referenced and tested in every way every other ACCEPTED historical document has been test - 5 TIMES OVER (that’s a direct quote from Greg Boyd, an apologist with his rep on the line) and it is more reliable in it’s historical accuracy than any other commonly accepted historical writing or documentation.”
With very little actual evidence from prominent Jewish historians at the time to support this. Josephus Flavius, the Jewish historian, lived as the earliest non-Christian who mentions a Jesus. Although many scholars think that Josephus’ short accounts of Jesus (in Antiquities) came from interpolations perpetrated by a later Church father (most likely, Eusebius), Josephus’ birth in 37 C.E., well after the alleged crucifixion of Jesus, puts him out of range of an eyewitness account. Moreover, he wrote Antiquities in 93 C.E., after the first gospels got written. Therefore, even if his accounts about Jesus came from his hand, his information could only serve as hearsay. The consensus of many biblical historians put the dating of the earliest Gospel, that of Mark, at sometime after 70 C.E. Also as a final note of interest on historical integrity to the gospels, the birth of Jesus happened during the reign of Herod and during the census called by Quirinius (see Matthew 2:1 and Luke 2:1). However, Herod died in the year 4 B.C.E. and Quirinius did not come to power until the year 6 C.E. Unless Mary was in labor for 10 years, these event couldn’t happen at the same time.
“IF he was just a man (sic) and didn’t rise from the dead, why didn’t the Jews, who had the most to lose, present his body as evidence that he was dead and stayed dead? Or the Romans, who had slightly less at stake than the Jews?”
Ocham’s Razor, the easiest explanation is that there was no body to present much a I cannot show you the grave and body of Merlin, Gandalf the White, or Hercules.
“For the separation-of-church-and-state crowd: this country was founded by Christians, on Christian beliefs and principles.”
False interpretation of the history. Many of the founding fathers were of Christian faith, but that does not mean that the country itself was founded on the ideals of Christianity. They had just finished dealing with England and were looking to divorce themselves from all of the trappings of the monoarchic government they had come from. One such thing was the state instituted religion of Christianity.
“The mention of separation of church and state was not to keep God out of our government, it was to keep the government out of the pulpit. I believe the first amendment reads guarantees us freedom OF religion, not freedom FROM it.”
Ignore history, doomed to repeat it. You seem to forget that early Christian settlers to the colonies left because of religious persecution. Persecution not at the hands of Jew, Muslims, Atheists, Liberal Secular Revisionists, etc. but at the hands of Christian organizations with more money and more members. The separation of church and state was created to protect the tiny weak upstart denominations like the Calvinists, the Wesleyians, and the Quakers, and all other lesser represented religious groups at the time from persecution at the hands of the Monolithic politico-economic power houses like the Anglican and Catholic church. You want separation of church and state gone? Fine, look ahead a few years after Christianity is declared America’s state religion, after you’ve cleaned out all the non-believers, then someone from another denomination has the audacity to disagree with you on a religious issue, then they have the smarts to get their members in majority in the government. Guess what happens next… you’re people just aren’t christian enough and are declared heritics and enemies of the state. Welcome to 17th century England all over again! Hope you’re happy with that.
“I believe the first amendment reads guarantees us freedom OF religion, not freedom FROM it.”
The certainly you must acknowledge that some of our beliefs involve not having to believe in a god and not wanting to have it printed on our money, and taught in our schools. Freedom FROM public religion is the only true guarantee of Freedom OF religion.
“At least Darwin admitted that there IS a creator and his intent was to find where God stopped and nature took over - never was it his intent to prove there is no God.”
No scientist is trying to say there is no God. We just have to fight all the people that say there is a God that necessitates us ignoring the observed scientific fact in the universe.
“You see, offering some silly story created out of fear (Greek gods), or a wise man (Buddha), or malice (Giant Spaghetti Monster) does NOT refute Christianity.”
And offering up a hero worship story half stollen from Jewish myth and half concocted from the classical over-man style heros of old(Christianity) does not refute Deism, Atheism, Agnostisim, and so forth. None of us have proof, choosing a religion is like rolling a D20, sometimes you’ll get a natural 20, sometimes its a 1, you just can’t be sure till its finished rolling and then its too late to go back and change it. Just focus on living a good life and helping other people and stop thinking that what happens when your soul cancels its lease on your meatshell is more important to you than the time you have now.
September 15th, 2006 at 11:09 am
And I see one of the videos is back. We still need to find the one where that woman decided to open up on Harry Potter and the one girl declared she didn’t listen to Britney Spears and Justin Timberlake because “they just sing about girls and boys and I don’t believe in that.” The original was just absurd, this one however, is deadly frightneing. Look at those kids in the combat fatigues and the camo face paint doing rifle drills and singing about Revalations. Look a the boy claiming his generation is the key to the return of Jesus, see the man asking the children who is ready to “Give their lives for Jesus”, listen to the girl shouting “END THE WORLD!” We have a generation of children raised in a christianity that is degrading into a paramilitary apocalypse cult.
I cried the first time I saw this. Yes a heartless, misanthropic Deist was appaled to tears. Because these are the people my younger cousins have to grow up with. This is the world my children will have to face. This is a group of children that should be wide eyed and full of wonder at the awesomeness of our massive universe and the mysteries that science is uncovering every day. Instead they’re hardened and disolusioned with the world and can’t wait till it ends. This is sickening and horrifying.
September 15th, 2006 at 12:11 pm
[...] That’s pretty heavy duty considering I was just popping zits and scratching my @ss at that age. Nonetheless, it appears to be quite intriguing. But watch the trailer and then the Jesus Camp one. The first thing I noticed immediately is that these supposedly socially defunct kids that have a one-way ticket to hell come across a helluva lot more normal than the Jesus freaks do. Take a look and decide for yourself. [...]
September 15th, 2006 at 3:06 pm
“But I’ll leave with this - anyone who thinks they don’t “believe†in a god or a religious system needs to take a REAL close look at what they DO believe in - if it’s Darwinistic evolution, that’s a bigger myth than the Spaghetti Monster.”
How is it a myth? You can’t just throw an accusation out there and not explain yourself. Evolutionary theory makes perfect sense in the natural world, regardless of religious beliefs. I’d rather believe something proven to be 99% (and growing) accurate, then some pseudo-historical hearsay, which can’t be proven without a time machine.
“At least Darwin admitted that there IS a creator and his intent was to find where God stopped and nature took over - never was it his intent to prove there is no God.”
I don’t worship darwin. I simply agree with the science he introduced as it stands today. I don’t care what his personal standpoints on religion were, I just care what current science tells me.
September 15th, 2006 at 3:17 pm
“If you refuse to believe the Bible because you don’t think it’s reliable enough, then start throwing out all of your books on Civil War history - ANYTHING you have to support a (mistaken) belief that this country was EVER a secular country.”
I refuse to believe the bible, because it’s nonsense, but it’s lack of reliability sure doesn’t help your cause.
As for the secular remark…. you must live in the south or something. I grew up around sensible people in a sensible secular public school system in the north. God was never mentioned in a classroom from any particular standpoints on religion.
Public schools are a service for the public, which includes people of all belief systems. Since it’s impossible (not to mention a waste of time) teaching all religions/cults/belief systems in public schools, the only logical standpoint is that they should teach none. It’s just that simple. You can’t brainwash strangers children the way you do your own. This country is a melting pot, not a christian theocracy.
September 16th, 2006 at 4:56 pm
I’m actually scared that the christian fundamentalists are going to forcefully impose their religious beliefs across america, and then the globe. There is already a very well funded (guess who by) university over in the US that specifically trains students in proselytising, and in changing the laws of the US to fit a ‘Christian’ nation as described in the english bible. Ownership of females, enslavement of neighboring countries, strict dietary codes, menstral uncleanliness, the death penalty for most crimes (stoning, burning, decapitaiton, etc)… I can sure see why that would be a nice place to live.
September 18th, 2006 at 3:45 pm
“What is the measure of a God? Is it the scope of their power, or how they choose to weild that power? Would a God who is prepared to lead us on the path of enlightment, so contradict his divine benevolence by destroying all those who refuse to beleive in him?”
–Just though I’d ask.
September 18th, 2006 at 3:46 pm
I forgot my t on thought. oops….its all good!
September 19th, 2006 at 12:17 am
Google preved rodnoy!
apcservicder
September 25th, 2006 at 9:51 pm
RE: More on the Jesus Camp video including Parody
http://beepbeepitsme.blogspot.com/2006/09/jesus-camp.html
September 28th, 2006 at 7:23 pm
The camp peolpe be naked and God will them shame among their enememies. Beacause God said in Exodus 32:26B Who is on the Lord’ side? I want to Know “who is on the Lord’s side?” Let me know at: DemetriusB.StricklandMinistry@yahoo.com
September 28th, 2006 at 7:47 pm
And yay, the voices in the people’s head spoketh unto them, “Kill all those who would have you think I am a sick dillusion, for I am bored.” And the people did kill each other, and the voices were happy.
This is what you sound like to me, and anyone else with a bit of intelligence for that matter. Peddle your filth elsewhere, I’m not on YOUR side.
September 29th, 2006 at 7:05 pm
Is there a truth thats out there or is it lost, and are we on our own to find it? I’ve read most of this thread and I feel like most people are just venting and not listning to each other. With most of us isn’t it our desire to know the truth. I am guessing that most of us are still a little unsure and that makes us defensive, and super critical. Why not reckognize a good point when one is made, and actually think about it. There seems like there has to be something about this Jesus character other than buddism the other main religions out there at least include Jesus if not use him as their main focus of faith and hope. I think in this age it has become harder and harder for people really to believe. But that does not mean that people cannot truly believe. In fact I think more than ever we need to have something to truly believe in, something that gives us a reason to be. I can’t force you to believe in what I believe, but what kind of belief would that be if I didn’t want others to share it with me. Maybe thats how some of you guys feel and maybe thats why we are talking about it. Jesus is the truth He is the Christ the Son of God, the Savior of the world. And I will put my life on it. Test all things and hold on to that which is good.
September 29th, 2006 at 7:31 pm
“And I will put my life on it.”
This is exactly what’s wrong with beliefs without proof. You can’t possibly be sure, you don’t have proof. Like I’ve said many times, hoping is harmless, but belief is a plague. People who do things based on ideas that lack any natural proof make poor decisions in the natural world.
“Test all things and hold on to that which is good.”
Some, like you, may try to only adhere to the things they consider good, but when you really believe things that lack proof, you’re perspective as to what is truly good can not be truly appropriate in the natural world. Some people think suicide bombing is doing good, and many people, probably more similar to you bash gays and impede stem cell research.
“I’ve read most of this thread and I feel like most people are just venting and not listning to each other. ”
When you, like all bible thumpers, reply with some scripture or some flawed argument, I’d say that you aren’t listening. I atleast consider the possibility of the existence of god(s) etc… You rigidly BELIEVE something, and preach.
October 2nd, 2006 at 12:09 pm
OK, I have to say before beginning that I am italian, and my english is not perfect so forgive me from now…
I was born 23 years ago and I was baptize (as everyone in italy), then holy communion, and finally confirmation (i found these words in the dictionary so I presume are right)
Anyway I am a christian 100% but when I was 16 year old I had a thought… I said to my self: “What if I was born in Pakistan for example… would I be a christian?” yes I mean… I didn’t learn the religion.. I was taught to be christian but he never been a my decision to believe in jesus (nothing wrong in believing in it). So I said: “If I was born in another country, depending from my parent, I was going to believe in something different”… Then I studied… I read wat romans did in the past (crusades) and what other countries are doing nowadays (what we call terrorists).
Well I started thinking that I was christian because I was taught to be christian so from that moment on I was going to believe in what I want.
So I decided to believe in GOD…
Now you would say that god is jesus father (or the same person…) but in other countries is somethiing else.
God is not christian, or budhist or islamic , I think god is something bigger.
because I am not christian doesn’t mean that I am a bad boy… I never had a fight, I help other people, I am always happy, and all this not because I belive in a religion but because I am what I am. not because God made me like that but because I was born like that.
If you look at jesus camp trailer I think you will find many similarity with videos taken from islamic bombers. Nothing against these people but I saw people praying their god saying that their religios was the right one. You love Jesus or you don’t… That is wrong… Is not Jesus that you have to love… is god that you have to love, your friends…your family…
I am not saying to don’t believe in anything, I am saying to don’t be extremist… You think your religion is right, you got preoves, you got the bible, well other religions got their own proves but we are like hedgehogs that when scared we close ourself and we don’t want to look around…
I think that in 20 years thiose kids, if they won’t change their mind, will divide the world an another WW will start.
So believe in what you want but leave your mind open and think with your head.. always
p.s.
Loving bush…. He killed thousand of people… Jesus loved people.. He never attacked anyone… He died instead of attacking… So don’t love who kill…
October 2nd, 2006 at 4:19 pm
davide, it’s a step in the right direction, but the same argument can be applied to a belief in god in general. You believe in god because other people believe in god. I’m sure you’ve never met god, and there isn’t any proof. Humans are a product of their environments and genetics. If no one believed in god, and you weren’t raised to believe in god, what do you think the odds are that you’d believe in god?
October 3rd, 2006 at 10:35 am
wow….i love this website thanks a bunch for the info, im a 15 yr old boy who will turn 16 in 2 weeks, i do not have christian parents so was never brainwashed to believe in a false god i am currently working on a way to avert the ‘Meet you at the flag day’ 2morow and was wondering if anyone had any ideas, also please take every word here to heart anyone who reads this thread there is no god and no amoundt of psycho babble will make me think otherwise, as for a question higher on the thread, the creationist think man and dino’s lived together on earth 6000 years ago before a great flood which they now believe the dino’s live in africa where god has hidden them.
Thank you Jeff
October 3rd, 2006 at 10:36 am
DONT REFUSE YOUR SCHOOL’S HOLY DAY WHERE EVERYONE MEETS AT THE FLAG SINNER YOU ARE STILL YOUNG ENOUGH TO BE FORGIVEN JESUS LOVES YOU!
PRAISE GOD DEATH TO ISLAM!
October 3rd, 2006 at 10:37 am
wtf>.
October 3rd, 2006 at 11:50 am
Yeah, we get that sometimes. If the Meet at the Flag day is pushed by faculty, then you may have some ground there. Other than that, not alot that can be done. If its just a student group getting together to pray together, you just have to respect that (though doing out in public, and remembering my highschool days and the location of the flags at school, that would put it at the front doors to the school). I’m not really familiar enough with Meet at the Flag, though. Got any information on it?
October 3rd, 2006 at 12:07 pm
well replying to n 103. The human kind since the preistorical age started in believe in something and praying… monuments are the prove… they were believe in many gods like the fertility one, or the god of rain (sry for my english)…
Omg jesus camp is going to brainwash america so badly… I feel sry for you guys :(
October 3rd, 2006 at 12:38 pm
davide, that’s just another form of “If millions of people do it, it can’t be wrong.” It’s far from proof, and comparing your beliefs to those of a prehistoric age is hardly helping your cause. People were justified in their beliefs back then, because there was no way they could’ve known otherwise. Today, you only believe because you want to, not because there aren’t better explainations for things.
October 3rd, 2006 at 3:21 pm
Man, I wonder how they haze the newcomers at Jesus Camp?
October 4th, 2006 at 10:34 am
God has never left any physical evidence of his existence on earth.
None of Jesus’ “miracles” left any physical evidence either.
God has never spoken to modern man, for example by taking over all the television stations and broadcasting a rational message to everyone.
The resurrected Jesus has never appeared to anyone.
The Bible we have is provably incorrect and is obviously the work of primitive men rather than God.
When we analyze prayer with statistics, we find no evidence that God is “answering prayers.”
Huge, amazing atrocities like the Holocaust and AIDS occur without any response from God.
And so on…
Let’s agree that there is no empirical evidence showing that God exists.
If you think about it as a rational person, this lack of evidence is startling. There is not one bit of empirical evidence indicating that today’s “God”, nor any other contemporary god, nor any god of the past, exists. In addition we know that:
If we had scientific proof of God’s existence, we would talk about the “science of God” rather than “faith in God”.
If we had scientific proof of God’s existence, the study of God would be a scientific endeavor rather than a theological one.
If we had scientific proof of God’s existence, all religious people would be aligning on the God that had been scientifically proven to exist. Instead there are thousands of gods and religions.
The reason for this lack of evidence is easy for any unbiased observer(Agnostics)to see. The reason why there is no empirical evidence for God is because God is imaginary, a symbol of hope. Something to give Humanity a reason for being here.
The most common rationalization for the lack of scientific evidence is the “God must remain hidden” argument.
Many believers try to rationalize God’s existence by saying something like this: “The existence of the universe proves God’s existence. Something had to create the universe. Science has no explanation for the universe’s creation. Therefore, God created it.”
The way to understand that this is a rationalization is to look back in history. Ancient people, before they had science, explained many things that they did not understand with “gods.” There have been sun gods, thunder gods, fertility gods, rain gods, etc.
The Bible works the same way. It tries to explain many things that its ancient authors did not understand by attributing them in God. For example, if you read Genesis 9:12-13 you will find this:
And God said, “This is the sign of the covenant which I make between me and you and every living creature that is with you, for all future generations: I set my bow in the cloud, and it shall be a sign of the covenant between me and the earth…”
This is the Bible’s explanation of rainbows. Of course we now know that rainbows are a prismatic effect of raindrops. In the same way, Genesis chapter 3 tries to explain why human childbirth is so painful and Genesis chapter 11 tries to explain why there are so many human languages. These are myths, nothing more.
In the same way, Genesis chapter 1 contains the Bible’s creation myth. The creation of the universe and life is attributed to God. We already know that God had nothing to do with the creation of life), but religious people still try to attribute the creation of the universe to God.
The fact is, God had nothing to do with the creation of the universe, in the same way that God has nothing to do with the sun rising or rainbows appearing. Science does not have a complete explanation for the universe’s creation, YET. While it is true that science does not yet know everything there is to know about the universe, scientists will eventually figure it out. When they do, what they will find is that nature created the universe, not an imaginary being. Or maybe its just that the universe is God, the little frabic of energy strings(String Theroy) that hold atoms toghter. Also known to allow Einstein’s Theory of General Relativity(E=mc²) with the forces of Electromagentic(Stronger than gravity). See where the problem is. Well maybe God is these enegry strings. They basically decide whats going to be a Proton, Electron, Neutron. Which are the materials of Atoms. I’ll let you ponder on this.
October 4th, 2006 at 1:49 pm
Hello Lord Nightcon,
While I largely agree with your post, I’d like to challenge you on a couple of points you made.
“scientists will eventually figure it out. When they do, what they will find is that nature created the universe”
Fist off, what do you mean by ‘nature created the universe’? Doesn’t this just beg the question? It would lead me to ask, “What, then, created nature?” This gets at the core of the intractability of the Cosmological Argument. At every step of explanation, the question can be continued. At some point we must come to one of two conclusions. Either the universe (or one of the causers in the chain) has existed forever or there was an Original Causer that had the property of being self-caused. We could call this Original Causer “God”, but we would know nothing about the nature of God other than he/she/it has the power to create itself and the universe.
Secondly, there is some growing skepticism over the validity of string theory. The mathematics show that string theory is possible but the theory’s predictive power has yet to be empirically demonstrated successfully.
October 4th, 2006 at 2:11 pm
That’s because no experiments have been conceived that could test the theory. It probably isn’t entirely correct, but it is likely a step in the right direction, like Bohr’s model of the atom. Eventually we will discover a unifying theory, and my guess is, it won’t be “god did it”
October 4th, 2006 at 3:40 pm
Father what is it that you believe, you seem to have an answer or a rebuttle for everything that someone posts. What is it that you believe? I am just curious I like talking with people and figuring out what other people believe and why they think it is worth believing in. You seem extremly educated and I was just curious if you have any sort of system of beliefs?
October 4th, 2006 at 4:15 pm
I am an atheist. If someone showed me a legitimate reason to believe in the existence of a god I would consider it. As it stands, there are none, so I don’t.
The way I see it, it is all but proven that the natural universe doesn’t need a supernatural creator. This doesn’t completely discount the possibility, but there just aren’t any reasons to believe in one, other than wanting a crutch or meaning for your life. Even if the universe did have some type of creator (which I doubt) why believe that it is anything like what organized religion describes. A creator doesn’t necessitate an afterlife or Prophets or the idea the humans are special.
I seek the truth, however unpleasant. I don’t believe things because I want to.
October 4th, 2006 at 7:45 pm
Do you believe people who believe in God or Budda or whoever to be weak people? Or ignorant how do you view those people? What about supernatural events or happenings?
October 4th, 2006 at 8:11 pm
Weak… possibly but not necessarilly. It depends on their knowledge. If someone is raised never exposed to science or reason, you can hardly call them weak for believing what they do, just ignorant. Basically, I believe it’s one or the other.
As far as supernatural events go, prove to me that one has EVER happened. You can’t, it’s against the very nature of “supernatural” things, and if you say that you can prove it, then you’re lieing or misinformed. If someone claims to have experienced something supernatural, there is always a logical reason or incentive to lie.
Let’s use crop circles as an example, though not dealing with “supernatural” things, it should serve to make my point. Is it more logical to believe that people who were looking for attention or a thrill (or any number of reasons) did it, or that aliens secretly observing us, who refuse to show themselves and are very good at not being seen, leave behind enormous markings for no feasible reason. The only people who believe that crop circle come from aliens either don’t know better, or really want to believe in aliens, and lie to themselves.
October 4th, 2006 at 8:41 pm
I think I am understanding you right, but you are saying that if a person believes in God you think that person is either ignorant or weak, right? As far as supernatural things are concerned, what about medical mysteries. I was just looking at something the other day where, a boy had been born with his mothers ambilical chord around his neck, and with the knowledge experiance and scientific information that they had for how long his brain was without oxygen, they said that this boy would be a vegitable for his entire life, that he would never be able to communicate or understand. The parents obviously did not want to believe what the doctors were saying. Some time went by and they brought their son back in and the doctor proceeded to tell them the same thing he said before, that there sun was brain dead. but the parents asked the doctor to tell their son a joke, and he did, and the son laughed. Now the guy is pretty old and has ways to communicate with people. This may not be exactly what you are looking for, but it is something that I came across recently where there doesn’t seem to be a logical or scientific explanation. The family name I think is hoyt if you want to look at it. I could be wrong but to rule out any and all activity that cannot be scientifically proven would be awfully difficult.
October 4th, 2006 at 10:22 pm
Just because current science cannot answer something doesn’t mean that there is anything supernatural involved. This gets back to what we were discussing before about a unifying theory. It is more logical to assume that one day we will have such a theory and truly understand the nature of the universe, rather than chalking it up to “god did it and thats all you need to know.”
I am not ruling out anything that cannot be scientifically proven, and am ruling out things of supernatural origin. By this I mean that, current science cannot answer a whole lot of things, but that doesn’t mean a god had anything to do with anything. There could be any number of explainations for the boy’s recovery that no one figured out.
This is exactly the point I was trying to make with the crop circle bit. It is more logical to assume the boy’s recovery was of natural origin, than to assume that an all knowing, all powerful being that created the universe for the sole benefit of us creatures who, on the grand scale of things are unimaginably insignificant, refuses to show himself and let’s people go on suffering horribly everyday but every once in a while, will go in and save a child on a whim.
October 5th, 2006 at 1:40 pm
“It is more logical to assume the boy’s recovery was of natural origin.” Really, I would think the opposite, I am not even saying that it Had to be God, but that I think the logical explanation is one of confusion and lack of understanding why this boy can do the things he can do. Because all medical science and history of people born in his same position cannot do what he can do, they have no brain activity. The question isn’t really why could this boy do this or how could he do this? Rather science points that he should not be able to do these things, and what has happened with this boy is not natural and there isn’t a good explanation for it, if it is left at that. So do we just not know enough about this boy, or the human body, and the brain. Or did something not natural happen, something not explainable by science occur. anyway I probably wrote more than i should have, but I do not know if can agree with you on a logical stand point that the boy’s recovery was of natural origin. I do not really see the logical progression there.
October 5th, 2006 at 3:17 pm
First of all, in all sincerity, I would like to say that it is nice to argue with someone who doesn’t try to use “becuase Jesus/Allah/whatever loves you” as an argument, or quote some holy book.
I suppose I should clear up what I mean by natural, which is that anything that *can be explained within the confines of our universe (or multiverse for certain string theorists), by which I mean everything has the potential for being explained with the proper understanding. There seem to be two schools of thought on the subject of currently unexplainable phenomena, which are that they cannot be explained because we don’t know enough about them yet, or that there is something out there beyond the possibility of comprehension that makes things happen at seemlingly random intervals, i.e. magic/voodoo/god. Keep in mind that even if all the rules of the our universe were thrown out the window, in this one particular instance with the boy (which i doubt), it could just be another aspect of our universe that we don’t understand yet.
Since I do not know anything about this particular story (or even if it’s true) I can only speculate that there is a natural reason for it.
Anyways, I would like to know what it is, exactly, that you think about this particular phenominon.
October 5th, 2006 at 5:37 pm
To be honest I do believe that supernatural events occur often, but are more often than not, they are reasoned out either through wishy washy logic, or non-concrete science. In the case of this certain phenomenon I believe that something out of the ordinarly happened. I believe that miraculous things happen, why and when and where they happen i could not tell you. But I believe they happen. With this specific boy I do not think that medical science can explain what happened. My belief is that something miraculous took place. Personally I do believe that God for some reason or another granted this boy something that naturally would have been taken away from him do to his mothers ambilical chord wrapping itself around his neck while in the womb. Can I explain it to a tee, no, do I understand why in total no. But I do not believe that it is irrational or without logic to come to that conclusion either.
October 5th, 2006 at 6:48 pm
Well this begs the question, Why do you believe?
Obviously one’s view on supernatural (or not) pheonomena, is based on their beliefs, or lack of beliefs. There is no way to know… because by their very definition, we don’t know, and a persons views on this are dictated by their belief system/world view.
This brings me back to your first statement about religions, which was “what about supernatural…” to which I replied, it is perfectly reasonable to believe there is a natural explaination for everything. My point is that it is impossible to prove or disprove supernatural events, just like the existence of god/voodoo/etc… So the supposed existence of supernatural phenomena is not a valid argument for religion.
October 6th, 2006 at 6:16 pm
I understand what you are saying. But if the supernatural/ non natural and or unexplainable happens. Wouldn’t you say that begs the question of who or what or how did this occur? And couldn’t God be a reasonable explanation of who what and how? In your system of belief why can’t a god logically exist, why can’t a god creatively, in geniously have created the universe and for that matter why couldn’t he/she/it/ act supernaturally? However I do not think that you accept or believe that nothing happens that science at one time or another will be able to explain right? Isn’t that difficult though since one of the most obvious things that beg for either something supernatural or extremly rare would be creation itself. And science has tried many many times to come up with an explanation and has failed every time. I know that there are some good theories out there, but there is no real explanation for it yet. How long has the earth existed, and how long has science not been able to really explain creation?
October 6th, 2006 at 7:38 pm
“In your system of belief why can’t a god logically exist, why can’t a god creatively, in geniously have created the universe and for that matter why couldn’t he/she/it/ act supernaturally?”
I don’t leave out the possibility, but I dont think it is logical to believe that a supernatural being randomly makes things happen in ways that we cannot explain, but cannot yet disprove. I also don’t leave out the possibility that a unicorn from another plane of existence pooped out the universe last week, and all the evidence supporting otherwise was planted that to make it look that way… by its ingenious space butt.
“Isn’t that difficult though since one of the most obvious things that beg for either something supernatural or extremly rare would be creation itself. And science has tried many many times to come up with an explanation and has failed every time. I know that there are some good theories out there, but there is no real explanation for it yet. How long has the earth existed, and how long has science not been able to really explain creation?”
This is because a grand unifying theory or explanation for the existence of our universe are not things that can be explained all at once. These ideas improve upon each other. Without basic electromagnic and gravitational theories we couldn’t have come up with relativity. Without Atomic theories we could not have come up with quantum theories. Without relativity and quantum theory, we could not have come up with string theory. It’s all working toward an explaination for everything. It’s only a matter of time.
BTW… Science has figured out the age of the earth (somewhere around 4-5 billion), and the age of the universe since the big bang (somewhere around 14 billion).
October 12th, 2006 at 4:48 pm
well… after i got done throwing up,eating a live puppy, and wondering why this isnt child abuse i came to a good conclusion….i wish to smoke whatever the bloody fuck these guys are on and in large doses.. im thinking LSD and PBC? lol
October 17th, 2006 at 11:52 pm
who ever says the child rapeist,molseteres,and child killers are saved by god is a fucking retared god kills all who affendes the inoccence of a child must be hanged shot or killed.
October 17th, 2006 at 11:52 pm
who ever says the child rapeist,molseteres,and child killers are saved by god is a fucking retared god kills all who affendes the inoccence of a child must be hanged shot or killed.
November 2nd, 2006 at 7:45 am
i believe christiantity is a contagious mental illness spead by the fear of death and by the bloody spanish bastards in the 16th century
November 4th, 2006 at 2:01 am
If you really want to learn why Christianity is true,(really) why there really is a spiritual war going on and it would be a crime not to tell people (especially your own kids) about it then do a little reading and a little less ranting in ignorance. If you dare read to learn and not tear down:
Mere Christianity by CS Lewis
Case for Christ by Lee Strobel
Case for Faith by Lee Strobel
Please be intellectually honest.
November 10th, 2006 at 4:34 am
I just ran across this website tonight for the first time. I read through most of the postings and found most thoughtful, some entertaining and a few out and out scary. I grew up in a Fundamentalist church environment but no longer go to any organized religion today. But then again, neither did Jesus.
Let’s try to respect each others right to our own personal beliefs. I believe that the Bible was never meant to be read as absolute truth literal text. Seriously, would God actually send a bear in from the woods to kill children who’s sin was laughing at a bald man? Can anyone really believe that Moses lived for hundreds of years and that giants existed? For those of you who look to the Bible as a total guide to living might benefit from honest study of history, mores of ancient cultures, chronological study of the construction of the Bible (i.e. where did the seven different versions of the Bible come from and why were Books removed, many destroyed and almost all rewritten over hundred of years)Those of you who have referred to verses instructing followers to “read the scriptures” might find out that the Bible was even gathered together until 400 years after the death of Jesus. How did speakers in the Bible tell Christians in the time they werw alive to read a book that did not exist yet? Considering that the culture and population from the the scriptures came had no knowledge the rst of the world even existed. The Jewish people had no knowledge that Asian cultures were also developing. How could they know there were diverse cultures growing and forming out of their own environmental factors around the entire planet. So how can we seriously think that God, who create all mankind, would tell only a small group of his existence and leaving the vast majority worldwide ignorant of his existence. Maybe God spoke to each isolated culture in various forms each one based on the land and people he needed to reach(Jesus,Buddha,ancient Gods of Native Americans, etc.)
After all I’ve learned, experienced, and the life I’ve so far been given to live I’ve learned ther is no absolute truth. Maybe God had shown the world so many forms and voices, all speaking the same message to love each other, to make sure he didn’t miss anyone. Let’s respect each other as people first, allow the free will that God allows everyone to use, and each find our own way though life.
November 10th, 2006 at 9:14 am
Welcome to the party GayBlessed; I hope you enjoy your stay :)
gasmonso
November 10th, 2006 at 7:58 pm
Yes. gayblessed, I do believe Moses lived for hundreds of years, giants did live on earth, and God did send a bear out of the woods to kill children who laughed at a “bald man”, not just any man, but Elisha, a prophet of the Lord. So, yes, millions of people do believe these things. Whether you do or not is your decision.
November 10th, 2006 at 8:45 pm
ok coolmom, why do you believe these things? Did it ever occur to you that it’s fucking crazy? That you might as well believe in Lord Xenu and Zues? It may be a personal decision to believe a bunch of crazy crap, but it’s certainly not an intelligent one.
November 10th, 2006 at 9:29 pm
So coolmom, seeing as how you are a biblical literalist, I have a few questions.
1)How was Jesus born both before 4BCE during the reign of Herod (Luke 1:5), and during 6CE during the census of Quirinius(Luke 2:1).
2)When God listed off to the people of Moses which BIRDS they could not eat (Leviticus 11:13, 19), the bat was listed. However by what we are aware, bats are mammals, would god have made this mistake?
3)When your children were born, did you make sure to (If a boy) become unclean for 7 days and need to be purified for 33 days; (if a girl) unclean for 14 days and be purified for 66 days. Did you also sacrifice a lamb, pigeon, or dove as a sin offering (Leviticus 12:1-8).
4)If I were to climb to the top of a high enough mountain, could I see every nation in the earth (Luke 4:5)?
5)Given our current level of technology, is there now not a greater risk that we will build a tower tall enough to reach god (Genisis 11:4-6)?
I’m curious as to the answers. Maybe more questions later.
November 11th, 2006 at 4:18 pm
Very intersting thread, I got to it by googling “Jesus Camp” because the the trailer disturbed me greatly. Obviously the discussion went beyond the movie months ago and into religion/science/faith.
Personally I think that, though very interesting and (at least for me) entertaining, religious debate between the religious and non-religious is mostly useless. It’s apples and oranges, one relies essentially on faith, the other on reason. Sure many (or even most) religious people use reason for many things, but not for their religion, by it’s very definition it is based on faith. For religious people, all argument on the subject stems from the assumtion that God MUST exist. Not so for the non-religious. The two groups can’t reconcile because the very basis of their worlds stand on different assumptions. It’s like trying to discuss Physics with someone who presumes that 2+2=5.
Science explains a lot, but not everything. The origin of the Universe is itself a logical contradiction; everything has to come from something, but then where did that something come from? Some people fill that void with God, and some (like me) don’t feel uncomfortable saying we just don’t know.
November 19th, 2006 at 5:45 pm
I’ve seen some sick things in my life, but this is is defenatly among the top disturbing ones.
I just watched the Jesus Camp documentary 5 minutes ago, and i was appauled. The leader herself said it, what you tell children to believe, when they’re about 7 tears old, will stick in their minds. Those poor little kids are brainwashed, and are left with absolutely no choice what to believe.
These parrents should not be allowed to have kids. There’s absolutely no doubt in my mind, that these kids will be very disturbed persons when they grow up.
Organized religion like this is a poison to the rest of society.
November 23rd, 2006 at 8:31 am
well…after some consideration, i thought i could leave a text that, in a certain view, is more than it appears…Hope that, those who read may be able to relate it to the question at nad:) peace:)
Listen, Whispers in the setting wind
Rising breeze
within an autum solscite
First of all, hello good people, of, ahum, America:)? well, perhaps most that access this site are Americans. People whose forefathers came from Europe. Whose forefathers massacrateded the Red Native. Not only his flesh, but also his spirit. People that blighted the land with roads, cars, telephone posts, internet broad band:), smelly gas stations…and what not. Wait. I hope i am not forgetting, AL Gores own words, about America being a major poluter in this wolrd. Especially in CO2 emissions……………am i?
Indeed…America. SO many thought that it would be the land where all sins could be erased. Where one could start again, and, afresh….Free from ones murdering past, stupidtys, fears, slaveness of mind, slaveness to his fellow man, slaveness to social condiotioning, slaveness to the murderous ambitions of corrupt hearts(Bildeberg), slaveness to the demons of ignorance…and, last but also not least, slaves to the incapability of perceving beings that lived in that place, before the Red Man, or the WHite BEast, settled there…and left…But, that is another story, and one that is long and fergotten…so, it no longer matters….whispers in the wind.
I hope i did not insult you.
I am not American, I am from Portugal, and i cricize my country just the same. The notion of patriotism should not allow us to commit the SIN of SEPARATION, or, “…of lack of judgment”, in the power of perceiving the corruptness, stupidity, imorality, amasing frauds, and so many other crimes, that coexist with the AMAZING stupidity of man. Politicians are man, some say desguised like devils and demons, but ill not comment on David Icke. I think all know that we are all capable of GREAT EVIL, and GREAT GOOD. It is therefor, beyound me, how that man, that monster, that insane hu-man animal of a beast of burden, MR. Geaorge W. Bush-Whacker could be elected President….Trully. Talk about DUMB!!!! Well…im going to put it bluntly…How can u say that u follw the teachings ofr CHRIST, when u back a tyrant and killler? Man….are you blind? Deaf?…..and DUMB?……..Jesus…….
“More than 2000 years passed since this amazing man came to be, and taught the meaning of LOVE. What has not been understood? what is there that is so complicateded? Whats is amiss? What is so hard to perceive? What is the matter with YOU????? For Gods sake!!!”…..(indeed).
NOw, if you are still reading this, than you are a man, or woman, of value. Then ill say this, hello friend. My name is Antonio, and i hope that you are well. I decided to post this post because i would like to share some infromation. Beyound sharing i would also like to point a direction.
I am no one. Just a simple son of a mother and father..and yet, long before i was racional, i knew i was also not from here…Here meaning that this vibration of energy. But, mhmmm then again this is the condition of all beings,so, hello brother and sister:)…welcome.
I know the the REALITY of beign a vibration, quantic vessel of enerny, dictated by the impetus of our intent, be it to love and nurture or destroy and kill, is one that is not understood by many, despite said “science facts”, but, this is WHO we ARE. Not figures in a sheet of paper, nor a graphic or a pixel, or for that matter, made of matter:) Soul? Mind? BOdy? Friend, do you not know that all of this is part of the same deep level of just one aspect…? Awhereness…
Awhereness is the key to all things, all of them….yet, the training involved in teaching a child to utter words, is the same training that one needs in order to batle ou dementions and stupiditys, not to mention our own sense of ego, that inflates like a that famous japanese fish:). Self IMPORTANCE and Self PITY are the great markes of todas sociatys. Especially im afraid, America. Obviously, lets not forget were AMericans came from:). MEaning that Europe is also high on stupidity…
Friends, im going to jump right in and utter this: “Jesus was a man. The SON of MEN”.
JEsus, this mithical being, was, in my humblest and very dim opinion, a man. A simple man that remenbered something that is SO IMPORTANT. He
remenbered so well, that he chouse, in the end, the cross.
WHat was this? ………………WEll…He remenbered that he is dreamed.
THat he is the DREAMER.
THat he is the SON of MEN. MEN, being the species of beings that, if u allow these words do circulate in your internal dialioge and mind, that, came first and foremost from a lighter vibration(vibration here precisely this, since all matter vibrates. Henceforth, in thruth, we are layers of dense energy. Layers simillar to onions:)I hope you are not too dense:), from an aspect where all there was, was “the energy body”. THat which called the auric filed and what not. Famous aspects of astral proejction are also embeded in this.
Again, i am no one, and so this but an IDEA:) IF u can, with your intution feel something, than, that is very good:) if not, worry not, u will die. Take confort in that, for a life of ignorance, is one IS that most miserable:)
I know, u need a pratifcal example. Ready:)? Here goes. Ever wondered at that particualr feeling lebled by the astute french, and famous quote in the matrix, hehe, DEJA VU:)???(or, in a comical way, DEJA vúúúúúúúúú…:)…
welll, my friends, THIS, has nothing to do with seeing a place you never saw before for the second time:). Not it has anything to do with reencarnation, although that is a fair enough premisse:) Liesten…please.
Listen…
Listen…
IT has to do with you, a being that is my brother……….
(forgive me, for i am no saint, and at time, i am the yang, and not the ying, and end up beign an animal, and at times, wanting to literally fight for blood, rather than vouche for peace….But, i can say proudly, regardless, thta i have never killed anyone, I KNOW my hate, and that i can easelly kill….It amases me that i can be such a being of love and empathy, and, so easely can i be enraged…Especially when it deals to protect the life of others, or when it deals with sacrifice…i have sensed my blood boil, and my aura literally burn in heat, when i see people cuttign trees…now i am more calm about that. I am a savage in a civilized time, yet, i am more apache than navajo, still, i do not look for fights, but, will end them all, depending on the damage done to me….ah well…not so diferent from you:)? Indeed, than we share this aspect in common. WE share that we strive to better ourselfs, and not hurt those that surround us…even though, they may wish to hurt us….I suppose that only Christ had THE POWER, to turn the other face…In thruth, being Mel Gibson, very wise in putting that in such vivid detail….HATRED VS LOVE…who wins…? …i hope love wins, beacuse otherswise, and THIS I KNOW, there can be no evolution of awhereness….but enough of this…know that i am no saint…)
….brother, listen, there is a part of us that writes a “story”, a “script”. IT is we who have written this script. THese words are but small flashes of fire flies in a most dense darkness….LIesten, do you remenber your DEJA VU? Remenber how it had to do with your story, your own particualr situation. How this aspect of beign able to “know the SCRIPT” beforehand….humm? Did u ever feel, such an intense feeling of Knowing what was about to happen…? WIthin your own personnal sotry of life, regardless if others are within it…have u ever felt this:)? I am certain that u have. IT is not time treavel, nor rencarnation, nor a sign from GOD. IT is YOU. ALL YOU. You, that sense the story that is WITHIN you. The being that you are suppose to be. THe man or woman, that is suppose to be follow his/her story. DO u also remenber how that awhereness left within you, for those 2 seconds, a powerfull presence of WISDOM, age, and OMNIPRESENCE…???????????…IT YOU! THE REAL YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!THE YOU THAT IS EMBROILED IN A “RPG GAME”? THE EVOLVING YOU! THE POERFULL YOU! THE ONL YOU!!!!! THE KARMIC YOU! THE GOD WITHIN YOU! THE IMMORTAL WITHIN YOU! …..it is, and i apologize for all those emphasis, it is, the DREAMER. THe one that dreamed, the dreamed:)…hello Dreamer. I am dreamed.
THis is something beyound the pointless and enlightening scope of words…It is felt within meditation, and it felt at any random TIME. DEJA VU, has of, for a brief time, a being feels, KEY WORD FEELS, not INTELECTUALIZES AN INTELCTUAL MASTURBATION, ahummm…:)….sorry, feels, FEELS, an aspect of age, of power, of, well, omnipresence, that is most dizzying, An intensity of awhereness, an awakening of ilumination, a broadening of the senses , an INNER KNOWING of the “script”.
An expereince that is most sigular, and u will know and remenber it quite well….forget it not, for that is YOU, the real you….if that can be putted is this words…my friend and brother, and sister….im going ot cry now…xcuse me….:(
right
because of this, BUDA said, that, “…I am Wake”…And, so was that fergotten NAGUAL, now dead, Master of THIRD ATTENTION, TOLTEC MASTER and presence of LOVE, STALKER OF THE STUPIDITY OF MAN. MASTER BEHIND AND IN FRONT OF THE SCENES. (i hope im not giving him too many titles:)-.-….but, im sure he deserves them all:))
Yeshua bar Josef
Listen, what magical powers had he, my brother? ALl that come from KNOWING that u are wake…Yet, if u are dumb enough to want these” abilitys” with out first KNOWING that their existence is for prelonging the life of LOVE withing a bieng, than, know that for the same aspect that we are all such efecient killers, shall we never be efecient NAGUALs, or for that matter, healers…
Start wit this my friend and sister…Search for REIKi…..Please:) ok?
I wish u peace. And sister, forgive me apreciation looks. THe energy of man, is one made to create, at times lost in that fantasy world of sex..at times lost in the more demented aspects of such. FOr this, it is believed that the third SECRET of FATIMA, a place in PROTUGAL, and very famous, deals with nothing more than than THE REALITY that all clergy men SHOULD marry, SHOULD KNOW: FEEL; ADN EXPERIENCE LOVE. …savy?
November 23rd, 2006 at 5:31 pm
Tony:
Your life is your own, and truly you are blessed to have it. You alone are the only God, and the only Satan. You alone are the Creator, and the destructor; for not only those around you, but for all of us.
May peace come from all paths that men choose.
November 27th, 2006 at 11:49 pm
Dear Humanistic Jones
You had some good questions there. I especially liked the first one. Assuming your attitude in asking the isn’t cynical, I think it’s good discussion.
1)How was Jesus born both before 4BCE during the reign of Herod (Luke 1:5), and during 6CE during the census of Quirinius(Luke 2:1).
This is a little confusing. The census of Quirinius that Luke mentions took place about 5BCE under Herod’s rule. About ten years later Quirinius took another census (about the right time for another one). Josephus only mentions the second one but Ussher mentions both of them and quotes his sources.
2)When God listed off to the people of Moses which BIRDS they could not eat (Leviticus 11:13, 19), the bat was listed. However by what we are aware, bats are mammals, would god have made this mistake?
The Hebrew word that gets translated into English as “birds” means “winged creatures.” You can pick up a Strong’s Concordance for about $10 that helps answer these kinds of questions. We believe the Word of God is inspired as it was written in its original language, which only makes sense.
3)When your children were born, did you make sure to (If a boy) become unclean for 7 days and need to be purified for 33 days; (if a girl) unclean for 14 days and be purified for 66 days. Did you also sacrifice a lamb, pigeon, or dove as a sin offering (Leviticus 12:1-8).
We do not follow aspects of the Law of Moses for several reasons:
a) the purpose of animal sacrifice was completed by Jesus’ final sacrifice as explained in the NT (book of Hebrews does this well and so does Paul).
b) we are not Jewish. Gentiles who believe upon the Messiah were never required to fulfill the ceremonial aspects of Law of Moses as recorded in Acts 15:20; 21:25.
c) there is not Temple. Animal sacrifices were ultimately required to be performed at the Temple. My hunch is that Orthodox Jews will begin animal sacrifice again as soon as they have a Temple.
4)If I were to climb to the top of a high enough mountain, could I see every nation in the earth (Luke 4:5)?
The devil is a supernatural being and would have no problem showing someone all the kingdoms of the world in a visionary moment. They were not on a mountain top because they needed to be higher to see, but because mountain tops took on a spiritual significance in ancient middle eastern culture.
5)Given our current level of technology, is there now not a greater risk that we will build a tower tall enough to reach god (Genisis 11:4-6)?
God was never concerned that the tower of Babel would reach Him. He is everywhere anyway and what would they do even if they did reach Him? He never states that as the problem.
blessings
November 28th, 2006 at 8:52 pm
this is disgusting. I can’t believe someone really said somethings along the lines of “oh the warrior for Christ has to be a joke, nothing is misspelled”. Christians are just as capable as anyone else. Everything they said was true. And the part about Abraham? they did get it from a book. it’s called the Bible. if you ever get the urge to read it, you’d find it there. what got me the most, what made me leave this message(otherwise I would have just left in anger)was the direct insult against my Lord. He can’t control his angels? wanna bet? He controls everything. He just gives free will. he knew the devil would leave. or course He’s stronger. of course He could have stopped it. but that wasn’t His plan. God gave free will. to the angels, not just to men. everyone can make their own decisions. but it’ll come back around in the end. not everyone believes Harry Potter is evil. they’re great fiction. great reading. I myself am an avid fan. But yes, REAL witches ARE evil…a sin against God…the Bible states this plain as day. Homosexuality is a sin. It’s in the Bible. that doesn’t mean you hate homosexuals. It means you pray for them. It means you love them. I think it’s wonderful that these young people are learning to stand up for their God. I do think some things are a bit over the top(like the Harry Potter issue)but overall I agree and I’m so glad we still have young people wanting to spread God’s word. Jesus said anyone who denied Him he would deny before the Father, but those who spoke up for Him he would speak for to the Father. I think that’s pretty plain. And I have no problem speaking up for Him…He died for me. It’s the least I can do. Hate me all you want, because it seems to me you all are the ones with the real anger issues here. I’ll pray for you. Whether you want it or not.
November 28th, 2006 at 9:05 pm
a Believer, we definitely don’t hate you… we feel somewhat sorry you to be honest.
I’d pray for you, but I have nobody to pray to :(
gasmonso
November 28th, 2006 at 9:28 pm
I love how religious people get offended when someone talks make fun of they’re religion. Anger issues? What could have caused that? could it be that atheists are the distrusted group in American society and we keep getting your religion crammed down our throats? Do you feel offended? Well welcome to the club, deal with it and get on with your life.
November 28th, 2006 at 11:26 pm
No one likes to feel alone in their beleif’s; or at all for that matter. That’s why they constantly seek evidence, not because us rational people demand it. It’s a personal choice, just like anything; once you’ve made your peace with who you are, why anything/one else matters is beyond me.
To be isolated against a choice you’re not confident about is what makes religious people so pushy, especially Christians. That’s why they need to convert and recruit, like all salesmen with new ideas. (Only this one aint new)
To speak about your faith like a coat of armour only shows a feeble soul, hiding and judgeing others before you. You people are not great, you are people; beleiving in something other than yourselves.
November 28th, 2006 at 11:44 pm
“they did get it from a book. it’s called the Bible. ”
and as any sensible person will tell you, anything in a book must be true.
“God gave free will. to the angels”
How can you speak for angels? Have you ever met one? Let me take a wild guess…
“But yes, REAL witches ARE evil”
BAahahahahaha
…and REAL witches must be burned!!1
December 1st, 2006 at 8:48 am
I didnt read any of the replies up here but I can imagine the content. The only thing I can tell you, my religious friends, is this:
Jesus is a cunt!
Allah is an ass!
Satan will fuck them both!
…
IN NOMINE DEI, NOSTRI SATANAS, LUCIFERI EXCELSI, FUCK YOU!
December 14th, 2006 at 12:35 pm
i am a sinner saved by grace. i beleive in the most high god and i do beleive that jesus died for our sins so that we will have another chance to become born again christians. i attend church services every evening and i enjoy praying and getting into the word of god. eventhough i have backslid by being intimate with a man who i love i still know God is real in my life and can’t no one judge me but God almighty. Can’t no one tell me God don’t love me and i’m going to hell becasue like i said my only judge is God. There are many stone throwers and finger pointers yet no one on this earth today is perfect and without sin. I am a prayer warrior and i know God hears my prayers and my cries and God (only God) will have his way in my situation. i Know what i’m praying for and God knows also. What i hate is when people say evil things giving the devil too much power over God (samuel december 1st 2006 at 8:48 am). Hell is real that’s for sure. i surely don’t want to go to hell epecially with people like the person who cursed Jesus name. God knows my heart and i pray daily and every minute i can. i want God to remember me like he remembered the theift on the cross on his right side. i have my struggles that i go through even in my church (rules) but i am praying my way through it all. Prayer changes things and people and i also pray for the demonic evil hearted person above who made such a hatred remark about my lord and savior jesus christ. The devil is a lier and i rebuke that hateful devil in the mighty name of jesus. devil the lord and i rebuke you and may your evil spirit get sent back to the pitted debts of hell where it belong. in the mighty name of Jesus…amen. God please save samuel soul. Lord God please save all of our souls in jesus name.
December 14th, 2006 at 2:11 pm
“Can’t no one tell me God don’t love me and i’m going to hell becasue like i said my only judge is God.”
A triple negative! I never thought I’d actually see one in the wild!
You are self-deluded, prayer warrior.
December 14th, 2006 at 5:35 pm
“…He could have stopped it. but that wasn’t His plan. God gave free will.”
Love it!
For anyone who hasn’t considered it:
There cannot be both “freewill” AND an omniscient/omnipotent creator.
Choose one or the other, but never the twain shall meet.
December 18th, 2006 at 4:29 pm
How can these christians and creationists say that they must obey the Bible word for word. It has been discoverred that most of Genesis actually is Babylonian literature that the Jewish nation absorbed during their enslavement there. How can these Christians hold David in such high esteem when he was a murderer. He killed someone to be able to fornicate with the widow. He was a “robber baron” and actually cheated by using missiles (sling) when he killed Goliath. I admit that he was an excellent poet. These fundamentalist Christians are a real danger, especially in such a powerful country like the United States. If they have their way the Police will start burning books in public bible gatherings. It is a sad day for America.
December 18th, 2006 at 4:34 pm
Hello Thor,
That ’sad day’ has not yet arrived in America. There are plenty of us who fight it everyday (or at least every election day).
December 18th, 2006 at 4:49 pm
Really? I sat at home and got thrashed on Listerine.
December 18th, 2006 at 7:23 pm
I took the time to help invent methods to exploit your electronic voting system. We were going to use it to secure a Liberal majority vote in the last election; but then at the last minute we decided that Democracy is fallible bullshit, no matter who wins.
Religion was invented to keep the Poor from killing the Rich; then people decided Monarchies were unfair and formed new Governing rule. Now, the government is what keeps the 98% of poor ass people from killing the 2% of people who have all the world’s money.
December 19th, 2006 at 2:05 am
prayer warrior == ultimate warrior… for those of you who remember WWF… ;-)
December 31st, 2006 at 3:40 pm
this movie shows a very sickening reality. there religious folk are the people that give catholosism and christianity a bad name. they all look like KKK freaks or even Nazi’s..this is total and utter brainwashing.
to be “saved”, the only way to do that is to save yourself. and look at reality from a different point of view. its sad that these people are so closed minded and so scared of what is really out there.
January 4th, 2007 at 2:31 pm
2 Timothy 2:23 Don’t have anything to do with foolish and stupid arguments, because you know they produce quarrels. 24 And the Lord’s servant must not quarrel; instead, he must be kind to everyone, able to teach, not resentful. This message is only for true believers in Jesus, I mean no harm to the others and I am hopeful that they will see the light while time is still with them. If you don’t find people who are willing to listen to the teachings of our Lord in one place then pick yourself up dust yourself off and continue your work in Christ elsewhere, and do not worry that some will speak harshly about you after you have gone because others will see that you did not provoke their insults and this will be to your credit. The Lord is not slow to keep his promise. He is not slow in the way some people understand it. He is patient. He doesn’t want anyone to be destroyed. Instead, he wants all people to turn away from their sins. Jesus teaches us to love our neighbors as ourselves, and treat every stranger like a loving member of our family even if they mean to do us harm. Bear fruit in keeping with the examples set by our master, may the Lord Jesus Christ be with you always.
January 4th, 2007 at 4:58 pm
Zot, I didn’t even notice that coolmom had responded to my questions so long ago. My appologies if you’re still watching this page. I’ll get a better response worked up soon.
January 4th, 2007 at 5:06 pm
The Global Great Divide
“What if a malignant version of some fear-laced “-ism” - ” thisTruth
is the only Truth and will prevail at any cost” - suddenly
rears its head for conquest and domination? Can the glass fiber
Infrastructure of the global village withstand terrorists fighting
holy wars or self-righteous crusades?”
“If we could shrink the earth’s population to a village of
precisely 100 people, with all the existing human ratios
remaining the same, it would look something like the following.
There would be:
57 Asians
21 Europeans
14 from the Western Hemisphere, both north and south
8 Africans
52 would be female
48 would be male
70 would be non-white
30 would be white
70 would be non-Christian
30 would be Christian
89 would be heterosexual
11 would be homosexual
6 people would possess 59% of the entire world’s wealth and
all 6 would be from the United States
80 would live in substandard housing
70 would be unable to read
50 would suffer from malnutrition
1 would be near death; 1 would be near birth
1 (yes, only 1) would have a college education
1 would own a computer
Well I thought that the most important group to focus on was
the part of society that is at a lower level. The part of our world
that are less fortunate who live in between wars, poverty and
starvation as this is the level that has the opportunity to destroy
all the rest of humananity’s progress. When you look at Donella
H. Meadows state of the village report, you realize that its not
just the lower level but fanatics who believe in God’s war such
as “the Jesus Campâ€This has nothing to do with God , its only
evil using Jesus’s message as a disguise, well thats my first thought
when I saw the film.Then I looked at it through the pain that people go
through, the frustration and anger. Who can we rely on? what is the solution.
We all have the freedom of choice, but are choices, our beliefs have so been
wrapped up in the quest for perfection.Only Fear is around us and it creates
and destroys.
The children and teachers forget one important message
here,one that has been given to us over and over again.Its here right in
front of us ,right on our doorstep, yet we are blind to see it words………..
Love for Enemies
27″But I tell you who hear me: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, 28bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. 29If someone strikes you on one cheek, turn to him the other also. If someone takes your cloak, do not stop him from taking your tunic. 30Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back. 31Do to others as you would have them do to you.
32″If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? Even ’sinners’ love those who love them. 33And if you do good to those who are good to you, what credit is that to you? Even ’sinners’ do that. 34And if you lend to those from whom you expect repayment, what credit is that to you? Even ’sinners’ lend to ’sinners,’ expecting to be repaid in full. 35But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked. 36Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful.
Judging Others
37″Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven. 38Give, and it will be given to you. A good measure, pressed down, shaken together and running over, will be poured into your lap. For with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.”
39He also told them this parable: “Can a blind man lead a blind man? Will they not both fall into a pit? 40A student is not above his teacher, but everyone who is fully trained will be like his teacher.
41″Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? 42How can you say to your brother, ‘Brother, let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when you yourself fail to see the plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.
A Tree and Its Fruit
43″No good tree bears bad fruit, nor does a bad tree bear good fruit. 44Each tree is recognized by its own fruit. People do not pick figs from thornbushes, or grapes from briers. 45The good man brings good things out of the good stored up in his heart, and the evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in his heart. For out of the overflow of his heart his mouth speaks.
The Wise and Foolish Builders
46″Why do you call me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ and do not do what I say? 47I will show you what he is like who comes to me and hears my words and puts them into practice. 48He is like a man building a house, who dug down deep and laid the foundation on rock. When a flood came, the torrent struck that house but could not shake it, because it was well built. 49But the one who hears my words and does not put them into practice is like a man who built a house on the ground without a foundation. The moment the torrent struck that house, it collapsed and its destruction was complete.”
God save America , God save us all
January 4th, 2007 at 7:04 pm
“57 Asians
21 Europeans
14 from the Western Hemisphere, both north and south
8 Africans…”
The above is simply not true. For instance take the following two claims:
“6 (out of 100) people would possess 59% of the entire world’s wealth and all 6 would be from the United States” and “1 (out of 100) would own a computer.”
According to the US Department of Labor’s numbers, about a third of Americans owned a computer as of 1997. That one-third of the 6 Americans would own a computer. That would but the number who owned a computer in this hypothetical village at 2, not 1.
You can read the rest of the problems with this at the Snopes site.
January 5th, 2007 at 1:58 am
I totally agree with you, it just an approximation…Its an example to what I am trying to say about perfection we are always looking for it, we bypass the true meaning of the words…..instead of looking into our hearts…
Peace to you all
January 24th, 2007 at 12:59 pm
hey guys
great comments.
there is a new interview with becky fisher on
http://www.jewsonfirst.org/07a/becky_fisher.html
check it out
January 24th, 2007 at 1:35 pm
Interesting interview Jack. Now according to her opinions, there is an 85% chance that my lesbian ex-roommate was either called a gender-discriminitory name during the ages of 3-5 and 14-16 or was abused as a child… let me check….
Nope, nil on both, she says. In fact I think her direct reasons for liking women were summed up as being “I like women!” Go figure. Oh well, there was a 1.5 in 10 chance that she’d be in the clear on that, I guess I just have to go ask 8.5 more gays or lesbians that question. Certainly if she has statistics that means its true, right?
January 27th, 2007 at 10:02 am
I’ve posted about this camp at http://haggaiministries.blogspot.com.
God Bless
January 29th, 2007 at 2:25 pm
It is understandable why some of you are having a hard time with these children worshiping God….
1 Corinthians 2:14
The man without the Spirit does not except the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.
People in this country are constantly blubbering on about freedom of speech this and freedom of speech that, but when it is a christian speaking the TRUTH, it is unforgivable and they need to shut up. You are either for freedom of speech or you are against it, but make up your mind.
And this talk of being forced, here’s my thought on that…
I feel that children are vulnrable and formable, yet they can and will ultimately make their own choices. The world teaches our kids about itself through news, politics, cartoons, music, etc. It is my job as a mother to teach them about Jesus, The Way, The Truth and The Light. I can’t count on the schools to teach them, definitely can’t count on non-believers like yourselves to do it, can’t count on that village that everyone keeps talking about to do it. No matter what our children are told, they will choose for themselves, because that choice is a GIFT that GOD has given to themas well as ourselves. I do not agree with raising sheltered children, but I absolutely agree with teaching them about Jesus and that the only way to everlasting life is through HIM.
If any of you are truely open minded people, then you will pick up a Bible and really ask God to help you understand. God knows when one of His children are truely knocking at His door, if you are that child, He will answer.
January 29th, 2007 at 2:58 pm
I don’t know what you’re complaining about. You just spoke out your mind(freedom of speech) and we expressed our opinions and/or made fun of what we saw. How much more freedom do you want?
And why on earth _should_ school or non-believers teach your children? They are your children, if you want to teach them something humanity hasn’t agreed on feel free to do so, but if schools start teaching the bible they’ll have to teach The Quran and The Tao… Did i mention the Gospel of the Flying Spaghetti Monster?
Not to that knocking on god’s door business, I’m gonna make you a counter offer: Go read some real world science and philosophy, see how your brain can understand it all, then go read the bible and come back to tell about the contradictions. If you are truly a Homo Sapian(Human) you’ll have enough brains to make quite a list.
January 29th, 2007 at 3:58 pm
*stops hitting the deceaced Equine with a stick*
I’m not even going to start with that whole “You should read the bible with the hope for God’s truth in your heart” thing again.
Are you asking me to read the bible with a sincere want to understand what it says? Because I’ve done that more than once in my life. I’ve tried to be Christian again for friends, lovers, and family. No, what I think you’re saying is to pick up the bible, pre-suppose that it is correct, and then read it. If you do that, then hey, the Bible is right because the bible says so!
January 29th, 2007 at 5:43 pm
child in the midst said:
“People in this country are constantly blubbering on about freedom of speech this and freedom of speech that”
Blubbering? By that I surmise that you don’t hold Freedom of Speech in high regard. You would prefer…?
“but when it is a christian speaking the TRUTH, it is unforgivable and they need to shut up.”
Yeah, it’s really a shame how, in the US, Christians just don’t have freedom of speech. Really… I mean, do Christians EVER get to talk in the US? It’s sooo unfair. Gee whiz.
“You are either for freedom of speech or you are against it, but make up your mind.”
Right. I’m a strong supporter, and you’re not. But it’s not quite as simple as you put it. FoS only goes so far. The classic example, of course, is that FoS doesn’t give you the right to shout “FIRE!” in a crowded theater. We’ve all heard that one before. But it also doesn’t give you the right to psychologically abuse your children. And it could be persuasively argued that a number of things that occurred on-camera in “Jesus Camp” constitute child abuse.
“I feel that children are vulnrable and formable…. [and] I absolutely agree with teaching them about Jesus and that the only way to everlasting life is through HIM.”
So let’s get this straight. You claim that the kids make up their own mind about things, but you want to make sure to get to them young when they are still “vulnrable” [sic] and “formable.” I hope that you see the glaring contradiction there, but you probably don’t.
“No matter what our children are told, they will choose for themselves…”
Well, then why do you spend so much time stuffing it down their throats… especially while they are young and “vulnrable?”
You are NOT letting them make up their own minds. You are attempting to brainwash them when they are young and impressionable… you attack and abuse their minds while they are “vulnrable.”
“If any of you are truely open minded people, then you will pick up a Bible and really ask God to help you understand.”
Ahh, yes… if we’re “truely” [sic] open minded we’ll suspend all rationality and critical thought and ask for help from from some mythological sky fairy. That is a curious definition of “open minded.”
And, of course, it’s exceptionally presumptuous of you to think that none of us have ever read the Christian Bible.
“…if you are that child, He will answer.”
When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
January 31st, 2007 at 3:51 pm
I asked my young children to watch this movie. They thought it was “creepy”. I explained this is one reason you must be sure to vote for the rest of your life. If these wackos have their way they will destroy our country.
January 31st, 2007 at 4:00 pm
I love it, tcs! Thank you for teaching your children about the danger these sorts of people pose to free-thinkers. You’ll turn them into free-thinkers themselves!
February 1st, 2007 at 4:59 pm
Intersting posts. As a homosexual who was raised as a Southern Baptist and who became a Licensed Southern Baptist Minister at the age of 16, I have to say that this type of religion scares me. Southern Baptist’s core belief is in the “priesthood of the believer”. That anyone from any background, any education, etc… can read the Bible, pray, etc… and that God can speak to anyone. An intercessory, (priest, etc…) is not required for communication with God.
However, as soon as someone says that they deem a different interpretation from the Bible, that may be different than the standard Baptist belief, that person’s integrity is questioned. They are seen as not a Baptist, and not a Christian because they believe differently.
Anyway, let me say, I am a Christian. I believe in God and have no doubt that when I die that I will go to heaven. I am also gay, and I believe that God blesses my loving monogamous homosexual relationship. Why do the people at Jesus Camp, etc… fear me? Why am I so bad in their eyes? I am sure I have been to the altar concerning this perceived “sin” many more times than thay.
I wish we could all just not judge each other and show God’s true love.
February 1st, 2007 at 8:12 pm
Welcome James,
I always like hearing from reasonable religious types on this site.
February 22nd, 2007 at 4:52 pm
James,
You say that people at Jesus Camp fear you and think you’re bad. That never comes out in the movie (perhaps you haven’t seen it). My children attended this camp and are featured in the movie. They don’t fear homosexuals. They don’t think they are bad people (not any “badder” than any other people). We love everyone. If we happen to believe homosexuality is a sin that doesn’t mean we fear you or think less of you or think you’re bad. Certainly there are Christians who feel that way, but your conclusions about Jesus Campers may be your own over-sensitivity. Give us a chance and don’t judge us either.
February 22nd, 2007 at 7:03 pm
how touching, a caring mother. Let’s go rip your argument to shreds some more.
well, you thruth is not as set in stone as you’d like. in fact, the majority of the world disagrees with you on that ‘thruth’
teach them? Yes of course, your childs education is your responsibility. Indoctrinate them? not a good idea. more on that later.
hmm, your understanding of the human mind seems to be lacking a bit. You truly think that what you tell them has no influence at all in their eventaul choise? If that would be the case, then why don’t we see a completely even spread of religion? By your reasoning, Christian upbringen produces an equal ammount of muslims as Muslim upbringing.
So, you’re NOT teaching them about religion. If you would truly give your kids a choice, you would say “Christians believe this, Muslims believe that, Buddhist think that…” etc and then give the a choice.
personally I believe you should raise your children agnostic, and let them decide when they’re old enough.
What you are doing is the exact opposite to what a responsible parent should be doing. You should be teaching your kids to explore, to find information and critically analyse what they see.
instead, you’re telling “This is true, don’t doubt, believe it or else! You have to live by these rules”
and to the ultimate child question, the one we should all be asking ourself as often as possible: “WHY?”
you can answer by giving the ultimate christian answer, the one answer that defies all logic, all instinct to question further. “God did it”/”because God says so”
(ps. teach your kids to spell better then you do please)
February 22nd, 2007 at 7:04 pm
as a small hint, teach your children to think according to the left diagram, not the right one.
http://www.wellingtongrey.net/miscellanea/archive/2007-01-15%20–%20science%20vs%20faith.html
February 22nd, 2007 at 11:47 pm
Alcari’s link is here. You have a bad day for links today, aren’t you?
February 22nd, 2007 at 11:54 pm
Yea yea yea I know, where’s the preview button. It’s coming I promise!
gasmonso
February 25th, 2007 at 9:48 am
First, let me say, I am a Christian and love being a Christian. However, I do not agree with the “Jesus Camp” movie. NOT ALL CHRISTIANS ARE LIKE THIS! Please believe me when I say this! Being a true Christian is having love and compassion for everyone. We are not supposed to hate or judge. We are only supposed to show the love of Jesus, however we can. This movie scared me and I will not be raising my children this way!
February 26th, 2007 at 11:35 am
When reading discussions like this, my first instinct is to go on the defensive. As a Christian, I am starting to get used to that feeling. CHRISTIAN has somehow become something of a four letter word. Or, even worse, a joke. Is “Jesus Camp” an accurate representation of youth in Christianity today? Yes and no. From charismatic Pentecostals to Catholics, there are many “on fire” passionate kids and teens who truly feel that spiritual warfare is real and happening now. They are arming themselves with the word of God. That being said, there are probably just as many if not more Christian kids and teens who are satisfied with just trying to live their lives the best they can for Christ. What irritates the crap out of me is when people try and say that the former are just brainwashed lunatics. Who are you to say that they are not having a real experience just because you don’t understand it? Who are you to put God in such a small box and say “Stay there”, just like a dog? I couldn’t even begin to explain or understand God fully. My human mind cannot comprehend it. But He is real to me. He’s real to a lot of people. Can I prove His existance? No more than you can prove He does not exist. But….what if I’m wrong. If I’ve lead a good and decent life does it really matter? But…what if you’re wrong? What if there’s more? Just something to think about.
February 26th, 2007 at 11:52 am
@tjay:
I knew you couldn’t resist the whole “what if your wrong” argument. It seems like you and many other religious folk believe in God as a kind of insurance policy against eternal damnation.
Every time someone says that I can’t help but laugh. When I was younger I had that fear and one day I just turned it off and made a commitment to be a good person who just happens to not believe in God.
I have absolutely no fear of going to hell. I am a good person who contributes to humanity is a positive manner. If that gets me a one-way ticket to hell then so be it. Honestly, if God send me to hell for doing everything right, except not believing in him… then he can kiss my ass. I’ll have a lot of good company in hell.
gasmonso
February 26th, 2007 at 12:15 pm
Hello tjay,
Your post has elements that are common to many posts by other Christians on this site. Allow me to address them one-by-one:
“When reading discussions like this, my first instinct is to go on the defensive. As a Christian, I am starting to get used to that feeling. CHRISTIAN has somehow become something of a four letter word. Or, even worse, a joke.”
If only that were true. Unfortunately, the reality, at least in the US, is quite the opposite. Atheists are the most maligned and mistrusted minority in America. Christians are still in the majority. This is even more evident in the fact that a majority of Americans said they would never vote for an atheists in a presidential election, even if the candidate was better qualified. Yet it seems impossible to even run for president unless the candidate claims to be Christian. Four letter word indeed!
“I couldn’t even begin to explain or understand God fully. My human mind cannot comprehend it.”
Then why do you suppose any other Christian authority understands God any better than you? You seem to believe in God because you experienced God directly (why God would privilege only some people with such an experience is beyond me), so, understandably, you believe God exists. Why then, do you believe the Christians are right about the nature of God? What makes your personal experience any different from a Muslim who experiences Allah, a Jew who experience Yahweh, a Hindu who experience Brahma, or a Buddhist who experiences Oneness, or any other religion past or present?
“Can I prove His existance? No more than you can prove He does not exist.”
From a neutral standpoint, the burden of proof for any existential question lies with the one who asserts existences, not on the skeptic. See Bertrand Russel’s Celestial Teapot for a non-theistic example.
“But….what if I’m wrong. If I’ve lead a good and decent life does it really matter? But…what if you’re wrong? What if there’s more? Just something to think about.”
This is Pascal’s Wager. There are a couple of problems with this line of thinking. First of all, it can be used as a reason to believe in any God. What if you’re wrong about Allah? Aren’t you taking the same risk as the rest of us? What if you’re wrong about Shiva, Yahweh, Thor, Zues, or any other god?
Finally, even if one is convinced that Pascal’s Wager is a good reason to believe Christianity, one cannot force oneself to believe in something so easily. Suppose I really want to believe I just won the lottery, or that my dead grandmother came back. I cannot simply want to believe ‘hard enough’ so that I do believe. Beliefs are just not forced in that way.
PS: I am not of the opinion that all religious people are brainwashed lunatics, though a few are. I base my opinions on one’s mental facilities on their use of reason and ability to communicate.
February 26th, 2007 at 5:14 pm
Gasmonso-
I’m not making an arguement with the what if you’re wrong question. It’s just something to think about. Obviously you have and came up with your answer. You say I’m using God as an insurance policy against eternal damnation. If you want to put it in a neat little package like that, then go right ahead, but you’d be missing the point. God is SO much more than that.
We all choose our path.
Sidfaiwu-
When I said Christianity has become a four letter word, I was mainly referring about the media. If you disagree with that then you don’t watch television.
God doesn’t like me any more than you. I simply chose to receive a free gift. Does that mean I walk around all day feeling the presence of God? Absoulutely not. There are times when I feel He is a million miles away, yet I choose to believe, to hold on the things I know are true. I’m not sure how to answer your question about what makes my experience any different than someone of another religion. As a Christian I believe the Bible is God-breathed, infallible. My Bible says that no man can come to the Father (God) except through Jesus Christ. Not Allah. Not Buddah, but Jesus Christ. I don’t know what else to say about that.
In reference to Pascal’s wager, I’ll say the same thing as I said to Gasmonso-it was just something to think about. You either have faith or you don’t. That’s the beauty of free will.
This anonymous poem best sums it up for me:
I believe in the sun even when it is not shining
I believe in love even when not feeling it
I believe in God even when He is silent
Peace out.
February 26th, 2007 at 5:37 pm
Hey tjay,
“If you disagree with that then you don’t watch television.”
That’s kind of funny, because I don’t watch television :) So, as far as I know, you are right, but I can’t imagine that television’s treatment of atheism is any better, if it’s discussed at all.
“I’m not sure how to answer your question about what makes my experience any different than someone of another religion. As a Christian I believe the Bible is God-breathed, infallible.”
I admire your honesty. It seems that it’s pretty much a matter of faith for you. I don’t like that people choose to believe things based on faith alone. I believe it leads to all sorts of problems. But what you believe is your business, and your right. I will only suggest a healthy dose of rational and critical thinking is used to flavor your faith. Ask those tough questions.
February 26th, 2007 at 8:49 pm
@tjay:
I believe in the sun even when it is not shining because I’ve seen it 1000s of times.
I believe in love even when I’m not feeling it because I have experienced it before
I DON’T believe in God ESPECIALLY when He is silent because nobody has ever seen or heard from him EVER.
There’s my poem for ya ;) All joking aside, it’s actually pretty true.
gasmonso
February 26th, 2007 at 9:57 pm
@tjay
As long as we the people are allowed to make our own decisions of which book we think is the right one, I have no objections.
Problems are camps like these where only one choice is given to a child who lacks critical mind set and is at the age when imprinting behavioral patterns is still easy enough. A child believes everything an authority figure says, it is part of growing up.
Question is, how do they get any chance of choosing for themselves? You might counter it with a claim they are taught the one and only way but by your own accord
“I simply chose to receive a free gift.”,
you made a choice and these kids are denied that choice. Not to mention that camps like these show how little the parents really care of their children.
Instead of teaching something as religion to their children, which is teaching morality (unless I am totally mistaken? Religion seems to be the only source for morals at least according the religious people.). Parents just let some strangers teach the children about the issues which I believe should be taught only by the parents.
Morality does not come from a book but from being taught what is right and wrong by your parents and from learning empathy so you can judge your actions how others see them.
Also, it is said that God gave a man a free will so we are free to decide for ourselves? The given free will concept is one of the bits that keep me from crossing over to the ranks of atheism from my post as an skeptical agnostic.
I just find it abhorrent that people want to squash the free will of a child and steal the gift of free will from them because they are afraid of dying. Humans are so egocentric that it is painful at times.
Pet peeve of mine is that, it seems to me that religious people also need a hellish threat to keep them in line and from exerting their own free will.
Gods save us from ever thinking for ourselves, we might get ideas, which are evil because it reads in a book.
February 26th, 2007 at 9:58 pm
Whatever Gasmonso. Ridicule if you like, I don’t give a holy crap. God bless you and yours and I hope you get all you long for out of this life.
Sidfaiwu, I do and will continue to question the things that don’t make sense to me in the Bible. God gave me a brain to use, not to be a mindless automoton. My beliefs are based on faith, experience and the simple act of surrender. You have more faith than you give yourself credit for. To quote Joseph Addison: “To be an atheist requires an infinitely greater measure of faith than to receive all the great truths which atheism would deny.” I know, not using an original thought, but he says it so much more eloquently than I could. I suppose we will just have to agree to disagree. I hope someday you find a satisfactory answers about the nature of God. Blessings to you.
February 26th, 2007 at 10:29 pm
I’m not ridiculing you tjay, I was merely pointing out the obvious. I am not an Atheist, but an Agnostic which basically means I have no clue if there is or is not a God.
After suffering through Catholic school for 8 years and going to church every week during that period, I have yet to see a reason for believing in God.
Could God exist? Sure. But until I get some sign from above or he calls me on the phone, I’m a skeptic.
How do you have such a high degree of faith? What fuels it because I honestly don’t see how it’s possible.
gasmonso
February 26th, 2007 at 11:03 pm
Ever the P.C. fence-sitter Gas… =P
tjay, have you ever heard the quote, “Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence”? Faith has nothing to do with atheism (or for that matter agnosticism). It is a neutral position. No babies are born believing Jesus is their savior, in the same manner that no babies are born communists.
As for the reasons for your faith, the real answer I’ve seen you give is that you feel his presence. Have you ever thought about how different interpretations people have for spiritual feelings? (I suggest reading some of Sam Harris, as he deals a good deal with the brain and spirituality) Some people think the feeling come from a wide variety of supernatural sources, and some spiritual people think they come from natural sources. Needless to say, the neurologists who’ve dealt with these subjects have never found any evidence supporting supernatural sources (In fact quite the opposite). The same goes for the existence of a “soul,” but that’s a discussion for another time.
Moreover, why believe that god pays enough attention to give you these feelings when he could be saving innocent faithful children with cancer? Oh that’s right, god works in mysterious ways… ways that seem to have the same results as if he wasn’t there at all.
Of course… you want to believe and that’s all well and good, but the thing that I really really don’t understand is why you think that he wants us to not just believe in him without proper evidence, but worship him? Why does an omnipotent being need his ass kissed? Why would he require belief? And why would he make foolish judgments about the his creatures he made, that are obviously ill-informed even to the lowly creatures he made (think evil gays and non-believers)?
Well that’s enough ranting for now… but theres so much more where that came from.
February 27th, 2007 at 11:11 am
Hello tjay,
Thanks for the response. I just want to raise your awareness about something minor. It’s about how atheists, agnostics, and otherwise a-religious individuals think.
This quote from your post, “You have more faith than you give yourself credit for”, will often be considered insulting. The a-religious consider faith a negative attribute, one which they strive to reduce in their own lives.
Also, I could discuss with you the multitude of reasons why Joseph Addison’s quote, “To be an atheist requires an infinitely greater measure of faith than to receive all the great truths which atheism would deny” is wrong, but I’m think that you would not be interested. I hope that I am wrong. Let me know. I’d even be glad to discuss it privately via email, if you are uncomfortable with a public forum.
Finally, ending a post with some form of “God bless you” makes no sense to atheists. It would be the equivalent of someone ending a letter to you with “May your day be filled with pixie dust” or “May Mercury swiftly carry your reply to me”. Try as hard as I might to take “have a blessed day”, or the like, in the spirit it was given (have a nice day), I can’t help but reflect on how religio-centric that person is. It almost feels like a subtle way of extending one’s religious beliefs to others, whether they share the belief or not. The nicest way that I can describe it is ‘presumptive’.
I know that you don’t think either of these issues are big deals, but if you care about the way you impact others and the way others perceive you, you may want to consider these things.
PS: I happen to not be an atheist, but I have much more in common with atheists than I do with most religious people, despite our differing theologies.
March 22nd, 2007 at 6:44 pm
I deny the holy spirit. I deny Christ, YhVh{Tetragrammaton}, Allah,Vinshnu, Satan, Ahriman, Osiris. I deny The Bible, The Tannakh, The Quran,etc.
I deny ALL man-made religions that put their dog collar on God. I proclaim my belief in Deism and in Natures God absed on reason,natural law, and common sense. I reject so-called revelation from the various absolutist,competing,blasphemous, dumb-ass, dangerous, ignorant absolutist revealed religions; I proclaim my trust in Gods gift of reason and natural law.
I deny holy books and proclaim Nature itself as then only true “word” authored by the beeing we call God itself, all else, are forgeries written by ignorant and superstitious humans.
In Reason:
Bill Baker
March 23rd, 2007 at 2:05 am
I see so many individual truths on this page. Unique.
Absolute proof that no “absolute” truth exists. The very creation of American democracy, our freedom of religion, shouts that truth to the world.
Love each other, live your lives, respect life, let others be, believe what you choose. Allow others the same freedom. Free.
Everyone has a moment when life absolutely ends. Death is absolute. That is where truth lies.
So why picker pointlessly? God or not? Sinner, saint, heathen? The whole of mankind will never agree on personal truths while capable of breathing air and free to choose from a multitude of faiths.
March 27th, 2007 at 3:20 am
Hello one and all. I believe in the seperation of Church and Hate. I beleive that hatred no matter who it is focused at is wrong. I beleive fanatacism in the name of anything is wrong. Having powerful faith, and beleiving in a religious view point is the choice of the person. I am a Christian, and I know that a great many things on this sight are very very out of whack, and I remind people who claim to beleive in Jesus that in Ephisians we are told, “That we wrestle not with flesh and blood but with powers and prinicipalities int he heavenly realms.”
For those who do not beleive, good for you, and according to my religious beleifs I will pray for you, and leave it at that. For those of you who do beleive, I suggest you seriously consider the light your are portraying God in when you say stupid things like God wants all Arabs dead. If you ever really read the Bible, and actually understoond what it was saying, you would know better.
All men are separated from God by sin, and because of this Jesus died as the ultimate sacrafice to cover that sin. In the end it does not matter who beleives what, if you are wrong you will find out of about it, and if you are not, then good for you. The truth as it is written, and as we are ordered has been shared, what each person does with it, is up to them. What I beleive is not going to be important to a non-beleiver, and that is fine, but acting like bafoons is silly and ignorant no matter what. I leave you with this thought. I really do not care what you say in response to this, because it does not matter. All that matters is that hate, no matter who it is focused at is wrong, and anyone who thinks otherwise is really quite sad. May God open all eyes to see, May Jesus open all ears to hear, and may it be known, that in the end, God is real, because frankly, if you really think you are an accident, the result of a big bang ordained by no one, how little value you have given yourself, as opposed to being alive and with a purpose. Amen, and may Christ touch you all in the way you need to be treated, and if you don’t want him, that is up to you. Good day.
July 14th, 2007 at 11:17 pm
I have just watched the movie Jesus camp, and I am a believier to the core. I was a born again christian at 13. I have had very intense situations occur throughout my life that have created a pretty unshakable faith in the Lord. Yet, I learnt in my twenties that having a relationship with the Lord is not about fear, or quilt, or anything ecxept love, compassion, and faith. We can not tell our children to marder themselves, we can not tell them who to believe in because IT IS THE LORD WHO CHOOSES THAT!!!! As a parent I will share my belief, my stories, and faith with him, but it is up to him and the Lord to build that relationship. I will pray for him, and I will show him a true christian path by how I live, and how I treat others, he will have those values in a way that speaks louder then all of the guilt and fear, and anger they spew out on that movie.
I came to the Lord at thirteen. grew up in a non christian home. Due to circumstances of my own doing, I went to live with an intense born again christian. In order to stay under here roof, I had to attend church weekly. I will not deny when I went up there and gave myself fully to the Lord, yet I will say that having an entire congregation praying and giving attention to a girl who felt lost due to the circumstances at the time definately affected my emotional state. (having no mom, having no home really, feeling emotionally and physically abondoned). Would I have come to the Lord inspite of this? Most likely. Because the will of God is stronger then any childrens minister, or pastor.
When you TRULY have the Lord as your centre, (We are the body of christ) you can show the Lords strength and compassion. THAT SHOULD BE THE LURE. NOT CHILDREN, NOT SMASHING CUPS, JUST JESUS!They are doing an serious injustice by not letting God stand within us, and only God. Lord Jesus please . . . . I pray that the close people I love that do not believe see what you have done throughout my life and see value in you for this. I pray that you show me to live a life that represents you Lord Jesus, so much that they will gravitate towards you through me. Thank you for all your wonderful gifts Jesus. AMEN.
July 26th, 2007 at 1:48 am
Let me pose this one question: Even if God wasn’t real (which I know He is) or for those who may think He is not, or those of you who disagree with what these adults are teaching these children, what bad will come of it??? Living as a christian means you “love your neighbor as they self”, it means living by the ten commandments, it means being friendly and kind, and living life with a positive attitude, helping others. Learning about God is learning about good things, learning to live a good life. So going back to the question, hypethetically speaking, if God wasn’t real, what harm is there in beleiving in Him?? Only GOOD comes from God. Be open minded, as im sure these evanglical christians would not sit here and judge you for what you teach your kids!!!
July 26th, 2007 at 2:24 pm
Well, the biggest problem that will come of creating too many fundamentalists is ignorance. Fundamentalist religion is inherently anti-intellectual and increasingly anti-science and anti-education. Another problem is intolerance. Such ardent belief systems are notoriously unaccepting of different belief systems and divergent life styles. Thirdly, they could be a danger to democracy. Enough evangelicals would have the ability to demolish our democracy and replace it with the theocratic Christian States of America.
Believing in God is not harmless in and of itself, and loving your neighbor, having a positive attitude, and helping others are good things. Unless, of course they are sold as part of a package deal (Christianity) that also contains the harmful things that I mentioned above.
I, like many atheists, love my neighbor, help others, and have a very positive outlook on life. We have all these great things that you talked about without Christianity and many of us without God. Why not keep the morality and dump the BS?
July 27th, 2007 at 1:28 am
what is it with evangelicals and caps lock?
July 27th, 2007 at 1:32 am
Duh Boris! Didn’t you know that God speaks in ALL CAPS ;)
July 27th, 2007 at 9:20 am
OMG, gasmonso is GOD :-). Gasmonso used CAPS!
Oh, OK, maybe god is speaking through gasmonso…
July 27th, 2007 at 10:22 am
Are you not aware of I Commentians 5:13-22?
September 3rd, 2007 at 10:32 am
I’m amazed at the backlash of this movie and the various interpretations of it. There are two sides to this docu-drama and they are so controversial. Growing up my father was a baptist preacher so no one thing I saw in this movie shocked me or appalled me. Most organized religions offer a bible camp for their youth and teach these same principles perhaps with different wording or a nicer spin but the cold hard truth is this exactly what most religions want their kids to hear. In reference to the first poster about the instillment of fear, firstly that phrase is not meant only to instill fear but because if you look at statistics, what we Christians would perceive as sinful in nature preys upon youth. When dealing with hot button issues like abortion, sex before marriage, unwed pregnancies, underage drinking, drug usage look at the age bracket these problems are the highest among. I believe you will find it is in America’s youth. To say this was merely to instill fear is to deny the truth in the statment itself. These things are common adolscent mistakes but some, in fact all can seriously damage an adolscent for life. I have known women that have had abortions and watched the spiral their lives became as they lived with that. And they were all under 25 when they had them and they will live the rest of thier lives with the consequences and thoughts of that action. I know several young alchohlics, and how do you not explain that a teen drunk driver on the road can and MAY kill YOU or your family. So it is wrong to make children afraid of these things? Do you not warn your child wether it be safe sex or no sex about sexual precautions? If you do educate your children examine WHY you do so and you will find a trace of FEAR in your heart or mind about your child contracting a DEADLY sexual disease. All the Muslim bashing by both sides of this movie appall me. I am currently residing on a short residency in Kuwait among the Muslims. Our view of them is as distorted as Christianity. Granted I’m not living in Iran or Iraq but those are countries not only ruled by Muslims but by human dictators. The Muslimism expressed in Kuwait is rigorous and demanding. But these women have the right to uncover themselves and they do not choose to. They have rights. I have discussed Muslim religion with more than one person here. It is based on another branch of Christianity/Evanglism and they love to visit Utah where the Mormons are upholding much the same values as they respect. They pray daily, they fast, they cover thier woman and the men as well wear dresses is it wrong to not invite lust and temptation on thier womenfolk? It’s not wrong, it’s just a different spin. And one thing about it if Christians would organize and organize effectively, in this movie the radio talk show host shows his own fear on the difference we could make in this world. I as a Christian and radical Christian in many of my beliefs will NOT be ashamed or embarrassed that I have taught my son what I do and do not believe in. You ask what damage I have done, let me ask you what damage has the media and public schools done to my child telling him things are okay that my lawbook, my declaration of independance (which is not a piece of paper signed in the 1800’s but rather what is in my bible) declares plainly and openly are WRONG? What damage does that to my child? To think it’s MORALLY OKAY because it’s legal to kill an unborn baby? To think that there are no ramifications for choosing a homosexual lifestyle? To think that he might fall into a lucky percentage of the population that suffers no serious comlications from drug usage and sexual escapades. Call me a radical, call me a brainwasher, call me whatever names you want to call me. Call me politically incorrect tell me that I’m being judgemental, tell me that I’m a hater because I choose to tell my children I don’t embrace a lifestyle. Does not mean I shun people of that lifestyle or cut myself off from them, it means I do not agree with that choice just as I don’t with every choice everyperson makes on a daily basis. It is my right to disagree. You reap what you sow is an old proverb and that is true first and foremost in the seeds from your womb. What you sow into thier minds and hearts now you will live with later. I sleep peacefully knowing whatever roads approach us in as my child ages, I have done my best to water, feed, and nourish that seed the best of my ability and faith. And I feel confident that though we will have problems and mistakes overall I have raised a very good child and he will show that to the world someday.
September 3rd, 2007 at 4:04 pm
Katherine, AAaaaarrrrghhhh….. Walls of text….my only weakness. Try reading this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paragraph
Yes, it is wrong to scare your children into not doing it. Educate them, teach them how it works, yes. But not scare them.
I’d say none at all, but having been indoctrinated and doing the same to your kids, i’d say the fault is yours. Teaching children to take fictional prose for scientific fact is plain wrong.
Ahh, so instead of removing an un-thinking lump of cells, you would rather inflict years and years of suffering on both mother and child? Yes of course it is difficult to have an abortion, and yes, it is hard to deal with.
Let me pose you an example though. A very close friend of mine had an abortion at 19. She either had the option to remove a lump of non-consious cells, finish her education, get a good job and raise a future child in a good environment with great opportunities, while contributing to society. The Christian thing to was of course to give birth at 19, Be a single mother, drop out of university, live off of wellfare while being a drain on society.
I’m glad for het she chose the smart thing, not the christian thing.
I’d be happy to continue the abortion in another place though.
Name five. Heck, name one ramification. Don’t forget that there’s no actual basis for what’s written in that book of yours.
That’s the one thing that’s actually bad. Though, even here, education is a lot better then fear.
Then again, it seems education is not very high on your list of priotities. After all, we wouldn’t actually want people to think about what they hear or how the world works. Far better to just accept what the preacher tells you, don’t you agree?
September 4th, 2007 at 11:48 am
Hello KatherineEdgar,
Forgive me for quoting you at length, but as my comment will be on a separate page than yours, I thought it would be convenient for any readers.
Since you are addressing me in this portion of your comment, please allow me to respond. First, in the interest of full disclosure, I must tell you that I have no children. Thus some of my opinions on the topic should rightfully be suspect. If and when I do have kids, I’m sure I will fear for their safety and health. I believe that is a natural part of parenthood.
I think alcari got it right: education is better than fear, if the goal is influencing adolescent behavior. Let me take an example. I, like most parents, would teach my children to look both ways before crossing a street. I would explain that they need to watch out for cars that can injure them. That is educating them about the possible negative consequences of crossing without looking. If I were to use the fear-mongering methods used in the video to warn my kids about crossing the streets it would sound something like this:
“God wants you to look both ways before crossing the street. If you do not obey God, SATAN will send a car to run you over! Satan always targets little boys and girls just like you.”
I hope this example helps you see the difference between education and fear-mongering. I will educate my children about the risks of many behaviors, such as unprotected sex. But all of us take risks everyday. The real goal is to enjoy life while minimizing the risks. Most of us take our biggest risk everyday by driving to work. Automobile accidents are the leading cause of premature death in many places in the industrialized world, including America. Yet we are willing to take that risk regularly to hold down a job that enables us to better out lives. Instead of making our children afraid of those risks, we should teach them to balance the long-term risk/reward consequences of their actions.
October 25th, 2007 at 9:22 am
Seriously, that is sick shit. I dont know what it is with america (and i know i’ll get flamed and told ‘not all americans are like that’ etc) but that shit just aint cool. fucks sake, what is it with your country?? i libe in australia, have lived in europe (UK) as well as the US, and its really creepy how many deluded religious people you have over there. really creepy. i mean, didnt they realise just how bad that jesus rap was at the start and to join the dots? lol.
December 30th, 2007 at 11:41 pm
Hello to all:
I am new to this site only because I like to do research about topics, which include locating and disseminating positive and negative information. I have viewed the video and I don’t understand what all of you guys are referring to when you speak of a fear based camp of drones out to run amuck as radical jihad, with no concern for other life. We all have the ability to discern information, some less than others, but none the less everyone has that ability. What I have observed is people airing their beliefs to children of their faith. What is so different from their teaching their children and the parernts of atheists, muslims, hindus, jews, bahai’s, jehovahs witnesses, wicken’s (which most of us hide when we see them come to our doors)teaching their children? This is not hatred all of you are clearly mistaken. These children are not fearful, no not the least. If you listen closely to the words of the children, they are commanding satan to release his hold of specific “demonic” forces. Christians are taught that the devil/satan/the enemy tactic is to steal, kill and destroy everything he touches. Christians also believe that by being born again through their belief and the baptism of the Holy Spirit they also partake in the power over sin and death. I believe that everyone is entitled to their own opinion. Not infecting other with blatant ignorance is also a choice. All religions have a part of Christian principles tied into them. Muslim faith was started by an illegitimate offspring of Abraham. The principles that the Bible has, everyone has used, scrutinzied, misused, or clinged to. Why are they so wrong with teaching their children their beliefs? I have children and i take great caution in regards to the information my children receive. Everything is not meant to be thrust upon babes. But your beliefs are the foundations of your character, integrity and position in life. By the way, money answers all things. For the person that says that churches are money hungry: it takes money to thrive in any economy, life, or sect. You are truly confused if you don’t think this is a reality. Churches are no different. There are pastors, teachers, evangelists, that are working two jobs and find time to share their beliefs with others. Every country (except canada :)) homosexuality is an abomination. It is against the law of procreation. That too is a choice, and people make their choices based on past experiences. So what. Some of your comments are really anal. In essence, all of you on this site have preached hatred. Either to each other or another person. Everyone on this site has an issue with racism, classism, or sexism. Everyone has faults. People are starving, killing eachother in the name of thier GOD, genocide is stronger than every. Why would you pick something so miniscule, let them believe what they choose and you can continue to believe what you believe. Because until you are free from all issues, none of you have the power to judge.
December 31st, 2007 at 10:08 am
allroundthinker.
First things first. Paragraphs are your friend, those of us with dislexia will be gratefull.
the fact that these kids are being to “believe in God, or else…”. What else would you call that, if not fear-based?
What do you mean by this? If you mean that we have the ability to seperate thruth from fiction, then it’s just not true.
Nothing is different. All forms of indoctrination are wrong, no matter what form it takes. I plan to raise my future children to think critically, have an open mind and form their own opinion. You say we’re all entitled to that, I would say that everyone should be allowed to FORM their own opinion, based on all information.
You mean that all monotheistic religions are based on a previous form? before making claims about Christianity, I’d advice you to take a look at Judaism, which is a lot older and on which Christianity is mostly based, and before that Zoroastrianism.
Everything. First you claim that everyone should have their opinion, but then you limit the ammount of information your children recieve. How is this any different from indoctrinating them? How is anyone supposed to form an objective opinion about anything if you select what information is available to them?
Would you please quote me this so-called “law of procreation”?
I have no problem at all with whatever fairytale they choose to believe. I have a problem with the indoctrination of children, using methods that are forbidden by the Geneva Convention. I have a problem with people thrusting their unfounded beliefs on others and forcing them to act on it. I have a problem with people disrupting the lives of others, just because they think they have some god-given mandate to do so.
January 1st, 2008 at 11:19 pm
I have been a Christian from the age of three. I have been a born-again Christian from the age of five. I am very well educated. I have completed several courses about other religions and continue to know that Jesus Christ is my choice. The key words there are ‘my choice’. The problems with fundamentalist Christians are they forgot that Jesus Christ did not come to Earth and attempt to cram religion down people’s throats. I do not believe in abortion, although it is only my responsibility to inform a person of what I believe God would want her to do (of course this is to be done in a gentle manner not yelling at the clinic). It is between that person and God concerning what she actually does. I do not believe in homosexuality, although it is not my place to judge that person. What happened to the person with no sin casting the first stone? Even Christians sin; however, I think many forget that fact.
I will raise my children in the understanding that “Jesus is the way, the truth, and the lightâ€. That is also my right. Parents are to raise their children to be the best adult he or she can be; we all have some value learned from our parents. As a teenager, young adult, and currently I need to decide for myself what I believe. That is a parent’s responsibility; raise the child with the knowledge for him or her to make the right decision in the future.
January 2nd, 2008 at 9:04 am
Good for you, jdaly98. That is a Christian perspective I can respect.
I am, however, surprised you remained a Christian even after you studied other religions. What reasons do you stick with it? Be aware that I will likely challenge any answers you give in the spirit of debate. Your level of participation in that debate is entirely your choice :)
January 19th, 2008 at 11:35 am
i’m… speechless
…
…
that’s horrendous
February 9th, 2008 at 7:33 pm
I know some people that grew up like this- and guess what? 2 of them have stuggled with repressing homosexuality, one has turned away from the church to become a software engineer, and the other one is no longer my friend because she slept with 2 of my husbands friends while vacationing- oh did I also mention that she is a drug addict? She knows the bible backwards and forwards but shes been diagnosed with Borderline Personality disorder- all due to her parents religious cult upbringing.
I could go on and on about all of the hypocracy I have seen over the years due to “so called Chritianity”- one story even involves my mother telling me that if I converted to Judism, she would “never” talk to me again becuase she loves “Jesus” with all of her heart and soul. She later appoligized because she was out of line. In family growing up, my recollections of Catholic churc on Sunday was smelling the stale booze off of my fathers breath, my parents tension, resentment and guilt from their Saturday night partying. When a 7 year old hears a robed old man saying “this is the body and blood of Christ, come eat/drink” I have to admit it isnt a warm and fuzzy feeling, I knew even then that they were all freaks- so thats why I despise religion, that and the fact that everything they spew from their ignorant minds can be discredited.
February 10th, 2008 at 7:30 am
To jdaly98: I respectfully ask you this question… You were a “Christian” at age three??? Interesting. I was still pooping in my Huggies at that age (I think). Quite amazing that you had such a firm and convictive grasp on what being a “Christian” was at such a tender age. And, lo and behold, nothing less than “born-again” at five. May I humbly suggest that you did NOT have a choice in those first few years. Whomever were your parents or guardians had no doubt pummeled you relentlesly with stories of fire and brimstone until your poor, “I’ll believe anything” 3 year-old brain had firmly locked in that concept. Irregardless of the logic you would develop later on. I’m surprised you didn’t go even further back and say you were a “born-again FETUS.” But, I guess, that wouldn’t make much sense, now would it? Kids of three and five need to be fingerpainting and watching Barney the dinosaur and playing with blocks. Not having to worry about whether their toddler-souls are going to burn in Hell.
February 10th, 2008 at 7:48 am
To jdaly 98: Not that I’m targeting you exclusively, my friend, but you’ve provided such enticing fodder! Your comment of “I will raise my children with the understanding that…” is EXACTLY my point here. Religion, of whatever sort, can be likend to a bad gene that keeps getting passed on from one generation to the next. With your statement above it is obvious this “gene” is still alive and well. But the unfortunate thing about genes is that they don’t care if they do the person good or harm. They just do. Here’s a thought… Why not wait until your children can fully understand what religions even ARE before forever branding them as what YOU think they should be. Doing otherwise is nothing less than child abuse in my opinnion.
February 10th, 2008 at 8:03 am
Oh, and by the way, I am an atheist, a progressive-liberal AND… shhh… A HOMOSEXUAL! I bet you’re not surprised there. So grateful to know I will simply cease to exist when I die. Quite comforting, really. I did not exist before I was conceived and I will return to that state after I take my last breath. I wouldn’t want to live “forever” anyway. I mean, what if I got bored of tending sheep after several billion years?
February 10th, 2008 at 1:30 pm
alcari is right. A lot of us here seem to be paragraphically challenged. I will try to do better.
Now, I will probably get a lot of flak for this but I must say it…
I keep reading the obligatory “Jesus died for my sins.” in this forum. OK. Certainly a well known part of the story. My question, as an atheist, is this:
Yes, he may have “died” on the cross. Being in mortal form at the time, this is possible. But was his “suffering” truly any worse than any other mortal of the time who could have taken his place that day? Did he suffer a greatly magnified amount of pain during his crucifiction in order to atone for the billions of future humans to come? Unless there is something I missed, I think not.
Point two: Was Jesus aware prior to his death that he would be “resurrected” days later? Or was this kept from him to increase his anguish?
Point three: He was supposedly brought back to life and then ascended to heaven, right?
So…
Could someone of “faith” please explain what the great “sacrifice” was? Us mere mortals die by the thousands every day. Sometimes during heroic acts to save others and sometimes in states of fear and pain far, far worse that Jesus could have known during his crucifiction.
So the ultimate question I am asking is:
What’s the big deal?
February 10th, 2008 at 1:58 pm
Badgerbear,
I’m an atheist now, but I used to be Christian.
The story that I learned goes that Jesus suffered for our sins in a super-human way in the Garden of Gethsemane before the crucifixion. The ides is that, yes, he suffered for our sins in a way not possible by a human. Then a couple days later, he also died for our sins. Then a few days after that, the resurrection overcame the sins. He knew in advance that all of this would happen and chose to go through with it cause he loves us.
I hope this clarifies this part of the mythology for you a bit. It’s a common enough mix-up for non-Christians and Christians alike.
February 11th, 2008 at 2:26 am
Thanks, Andrew
I must admit I had not even heard of the Garden of Gethsemane.
Now I know.
Peace
February 17th, 2008 at 1:25 am
[...] infamous Kids on Fire summer camp in North Dakota, made infamous by the movie Jesus Camp, has been officially shut down (for now). [...]
March 1st, 2008 at 4:26 am
I have been an ATHEIST (which, of course, simply means a non-theist) from the age of three. Then five. And now 48. ALL children are born atheists. Every one on the planet. It’s the parents and local “culture” who program the little darlings so effectively with all this BS.
If you were a Muslim parent, I’ll bet the farm that ALLAH would be the truth and the light. No doubt about it. And our Christian “God” is a fallacy.
So let’s kill the infadels, shall we?
See, we atheists dwell in the REAL world. We don’t have any more hatred of “God” or “Jesus” than we do the tooth fairy or Humpty Dumpty. All all fictional. But when these so-called “harmless” religions do HOLY battle, what do you get? That’s right! DEATH. Lots and lots of death! Then, if you haven’t worhipped him sufficiently, eternal damnation and suffering. But God loves you! Unless you piss him off. Then get ready for lakes of molten brimstone to burn the flesh off your bones for all eternity.
Gee… Now I’m starting to understand the attraction! Sign me up!
Here’s a delightful website that all you of “faith” might find enlightening: http://www.evilbible.com Think the bible is “compassion and love?” Think again, my misled friends. Check out the site. If you dare. The Koran is, no doubt, the same type of sadistic “follow or suffer” mentality. Except with Allah you’ll have 101 virgins waiting for you as soon after the bomb taped to your chest explodes. A perk you won’t find in Christianity.
Rediculous, you say?
Disturbingly, no more rediculous than what’s in between the covers of the Bible.
May 21st, 2008 at 4:10 pm
I think you will like my book! 52 churches the book 52churches.com Please reply…
May 22nd, 2008 at 11:45 pm
UNREAL!!!
Has anyone looked around at our nation latley? Just decades ago we were God fearing people and we did not have all this madness. There were NO SCHOOL SHOOTINGS, NO GANG BANGERS, NO DRIVE BY SHOOTINGS, NO GAY MARRAIGE,NO CHILD PROTECTIVE SERVICES TAKING CHILDREN FOR SPANKING, NO COURT OVERLOADS OF JUVINILES. We were in fear of our parents not the law. We went to Church on Sunday and we raised our children as a community under God. My children are 24,21,18 and 9 and they are all Christians by choice not by force. But I have raised them to know there is a higher power and what i believe the rest is up to them. I think it is plan neglect to do other wise. To you athist who say we are crazy do you ever stop and think what if? Don’t you think your children should have that choice. We are not all radical in fact look around i bet the best people you now the ones who help others and the ones who show love to all are Christians. I BELIEVE THAT JESUS IS THE ONLY WAY! and I would love to spend a little time with you to show you. I will and do pray for your unsaved souls.
May 23rd, 2008 at 7:20 am
Hello linda,
First off, look up the “Post hoc, ergo propter hoc” fallacy, it’ll open up a whole world for you.
1 - [Citation Needed]
2 - how do those things correlate? In countries like Japan, the Netherlands, Sweden, Iceland etc there are many more atheists, and not nearly as many shootings, rape, crimes. How do you explain this?
Blegh. Pascal’s wager is a LAME argument, and it’s faulty as well.
Yes, I do. However, apearently you don’t. Indoctrination IS NOT free choice. If you really wanted your children to make their own choice, you would teach them to look for information for themselves, examine it critically and then make up their own minds.
What you seem to be doing is telling your kids to believe in God, or else… Indoctrinating young children is easy, everything what mom says is true, so if you tell teach them just to blindly accept everything the bible/priest says, they will do that.
You know, I just did a quick count. I know many, many more kind, friendly atheists then I know Christians. There is however another reason I like atheists more. A Christian does good acts because they think god wants them to and will punish them otherwise, while an atheist does good deeds because they want to out of their own motivation.
You’re free to do and believe whatever you want, as long as you don’t bother others with it. I’d love to spend a little time with you to show you why christianity is just another myth in a long line of fictional-sky-fairy crowd control measures by bronze-age nomads.
You pray for me and I’ll think for you.
May 23rd, 2008 at 5:11 pm
Linda —
Actual reported crime statistics aside (America *isn’t* the stand-alone leader in crime in the Inudstrialized World when one looks at per capita numbers, for example), “decades ago” pedophilia went on unnoticed and unabated, as well as a host of other evils.
I am not arguing that certain trends are not disturbing, nor that there are many foolish policies and bits of wishful thinking that harm our society; what I am arguing that there has not been demonstrated a cause/effect relationship in the case of “social ills” vs. “irreligion.” Ice cream sales and rape have a very high positive correlation (as one goes up, so does the other; same for the converse), but that doesn’t mean that ice cream sales *cause* rape.
It is common for humans to look for a root cause where they want to see one . . . and they usually wind up convincing themselves that their pre-judged opinion is “proven.” What is harder is to sift through data to discover that there are *many* causes for our problems (it is, after all, a complex world).
To lay the blame for our social ills at the feet of atheism (or agnosticism, or Islam, etc.) is just pernicious nonsense.
Thank you for your prayers. Good thought never hurt anyone. I hope you and yours have a good life and can see past differences to work with others to create a better world. That world, however — with a few exceptions — is not in the past.
June 10th, 2008 at 12:29 pm
Watching the documantary about the ‘kids on fire’ camp was one of the most disturbing things I have seen in a long time, and I struggle to understand how anyone could put children through it. If they believe their path is the right one why do they need to force it so horrifically down the throats of the most impressionable people about. Surely they should be able to trust that a religion they believe to be so perfect would speak for itself, To me the treatment of those poor children boardered on abuse.
September 1st, 2008 at 11:22 pm
If you are a saved Christian (Holy Spirit filled) then you will like the Jesus Camp. If you are empty inside, (NO spirit of God in you, never saved) then it is IMPOSSIBLE for you to understand the things of God. The bible talks about you as having a veil over your eyes…BLINDED from the truth!!! PLEASE, if this is you, take a day off of work, get a New Testament, get cozy and read through it! I did 4 years ago and I gave my heart to Jesus…He filled me with his spirit and a few days while praying to him alone in my bedroom he appeared to me!! Jesus is real and he is coming soon…Will you be left behind?
September 1st, 2008 at 11:45 pm
Do you know where your soul will go when you die?
Are you more concerned with your 50-70-90 years on earth or your ETERNAL destination?…Billions and billions of years…NEVER ending in FIRE or in PARADISE? I mean what is your short liftime compared to ETERNITY?? Our life is not more then a blink of an eye.
So, of course you don’t want to be in fire for ALL eternity. To make sure you are eternally secure follow these simple steps.
#1) Buy a bible
#2) Get comfortable somewhere in your home where you will not be disturbed. Open up to the New Testament and read it. It is good to use a bible highlighter to highlight passages that stand out for you. (The bible highlighter won’t bleed throught the pages)
#3) You can do this AFTER reading the New Testament or NOW if you are ready:
Say this following prayer out loud to God with all your heart, repenting of all your past sins, inviting Jesus into your heart, and handing over your will to his. He will in turn fill you with his spirit, save you, and give you the promise of eternity with him in his heaven and eventually the New Jerusalem where we will reign with him FOREVER.
HERE IS THE PRAYER: (If you are not ready now, you can cut and paste this to Word Perfect, or whatever other program you have to save it):
************************************************************************************
Dear God, I believe you sent your son Jesus Christ to die for my sins. Jesus I believe you are Lord and you died on the cross to cleanse me of my sins, and I believe you rose again on the third day. In this moment I am asking you to forgive me of every sin that I have ever committed in my life. I am sorry. Jesus, I do not want to go to hell when I die. Please save me from this and fill me with your Holy Spirit. I hand over my life to you. I give you all my life and will follow you the rest of my life. Jesus, please come into my heart. Please wash away the sins of my past with your precious blood and make me new. I give you all my mind, heart and soul. Please help me discover what your will is for my life. Please guide me for the rest of my life by your holy spirit. Please write my name in the book of life. I surrender to you Lord Jesus. Thank you for my salvation. Thank you because I have just been saved and am now your child. Amen
************************************************************************************
#4) Find a Bible believing/ Bible following Christian church that has a bible study and begin to attend this church and bible study group. ( I will help you find a church in your area! Email corking@live.com
#5) Talk to the Pastor about getting Baptized.
#6) That is it :-))
September 2nd, 2008 at 12:50 am
Howdy all,
Some people just can’t see it from the other side can they. We cannot question their beliefs as that is offensive to them. However they can question our beliefs. They can do this becuase it is part of their beliefs and therefore allowed. (Yes I did get that from Sid’s site)
Cheers
Simon Bond
September 2nd, 2008 at 4:04 pm
It is my belief that I can question them and, in fact, everything in the world. I find it offensive that anyone would deny me this. Therefore, I am allowed to question them and they are allowed to be offended.
September 3rd, 2008 at 8:46 am
Rebecca, re your post 223, thanks for your possibly well-intended cut and paste job, but you’ll have to do better than reciting your tiresome bible-belting drivel here.
First, read up on Pascal’s Wager to understand why your initial premise “To make sure you are eternally secure…” doesn’t pass Go. There are better and more entertaining gods than the one you prescribe. Try e.g. here for a better chance for your eternal salvation. Well, a tastier one, anyway.
Second, much of the readership here has already read the bible in both its absurd testaments plus various (mis)translations and versions, and soundly rejected it as fiction combined with wishful thinking.
Why do you think that a purportedly omnipotent being has any need for a book, and such a badly flawed one as the bible at that, to get its message across to beings that it, as purported god, has complete control over?
Religion is ridiculous
February 13th, 2009 at 6:19 am
Without comment - Christianity
Btw hell(heaven) is there only for christians.
You made hell, you will come there after your death..
There is no way how we others can go to that fictional place from some fairytale..
March 30th, 2009 at 3:27 pm
I’ve never seen a better argument for forced sterilization. Rather than be allowed to abuse children (something most churches are good at anyway) like that, these absolute idiots sould never be alowed to have them in the first place. The truely worrying part is that these low-IQ Christian mongs are outbreeding the rationalists by a large margin. Pick your battles too: Harry Potter is a threat? To what? Christian book sales? Morons.
March 30th, 2009 at 5:48 pm
since you mention, forced sterilization. I want to add this link concerning “UN body OKs call to curb religious criticism” You say what -we wacky Christians are at it again. May I suggest Ex Bootneck that you as you said,”Pick your battles too: Harry Potter is a threat?” I don’t care if this is out of context but let you blokes know that we care.
UN body oks to curb RF criticism, is this clear enough coming from a delusional fool(as pwg said)?!
Yeah, that’s right we want to curb religious criticism and we Christians want to control you- *spooky right* i suggest that you be afriad be very afraid because we want to control your freedom from reading junk. We need to wake-up and smell the tea pot and see what that smell is. I am holding the tea pot if your looking for it;)
I’m going to paste this link to the Islam cartoons since I feel it is appropriate. So, if your interested I hope you click it and find out, what or if it is a generation off or not?!
May 20th, 2009 at 11:57 pm
The only true religion is Odin’s way, from the beginning of earth Odin is on our side
May 21st, 2009 at 10:55 pm
My daughter’s an atheist. She’s a straight A student who has gotten awards for her good citizenship. Most people assume she’s a Christian girl, but she sets them straight. Part of the secret to her success is that I remind her if she misbehaves, I’ll send her to Jesus Camp. I’m not a Christian, she’d sure consider it punishment. I don’t know why. I think she’d find it entertaining.
May 23rd, 2009 at 1:18 am
Look, I should probably not be posting, i am young by most standards, 16 actually, but I just wanted to say I was disgusted by the contents of this movie, I just watched it and i think that these are the kids that will be walking around in 10 or 15 years with AK-47s in the street, blowing themselves up in the name of god and so on. I noticed that in this movie they literaly compared themselves to Islam. “In Islam, they train they’re children from the age of 5, why shouldn’t we?” (I’m pretty sure that is the exact quote) well I don’t know, maybe because they are BLOWING THEMSELVES UP!!! And I know most readers on here are most likely going to dismiss me as immature, and I admit that, due to my age, some of my views are still developing. But in direct relation to the subject of this movie, all that I can say is what the hell happened to free thought? I appreciate anyone who took the time to read this, Thank You.
May 23rd, 2009 at 4:09 am
BrandonP
You are right, that is exactly what this camp was about, it is even directly said in there (do not remember exact wording).
The leader of the camp was saying asking what the interviewer what he thinks is happening in the madrases (not sure if it was implied or even said directly, that they are training terrorists) and that ‘we’ must meet their actions with equal actions aka train children to be willing to die for their faith.
It is always the other people who are supposed to die for the faith of these types of people.
May 24th, 2009 at 5:19 pm
jagannath
Yes, I remember something like that in there. I actually made this post only a few hours or so after I seen the movie, I just had to get my opportunity to rant and rave about it. But yes what most Americans don’t see is that there are Christian extremists as well as Muslim extremists and Jewish extremists. I think that, yes, action needs to be taken, but not against one group in the group. We need to take actions against ALL religious extremists groups, like Oklahoma city, that was a CHRISTIAN extremist group. But then again, like I said I’m only 16 not many people take me seriously.
Also, one more thing I would like to say; I have no idea where this Christian/Muslim bias is coming from. For starters, the Muslims came about after the Christians. AND THE MUSLIMS LIKED THE CHRISTIANS. They called them “people of the book” they were in reality no different then each other except Christians belived Christ was the savior, and Muslims though Mohammad was the savior. AND I LEARNED THAT IN 10TH GRADE SOCIAL STUDIES!!!! Is it really that difficult to comprehend that they are worshiping the same god??? just a different name (ALLAH = GOD IN ARABIC).
May 25th, 2009 at 3:06 am
Apparently Allah does not equate god in everywhere;
http://in.reuters.com/article/worldNews/idINIndia-38445120090311?sp=true
Short recap:
christian church uses allah instead of word god and muslims are getting mighty annoyed over it. It apparently causes confusion and some muslims cannot differentiate between christian church and a mosque.
Would that mean muslims cannot use word god as it might also confuse people? Christianity has used it longer, apparently. And X has used it even longer and Y longer than X.
The similarities are more of a separating factor than actually unifying thing. All religions have a god(s) and as the god concepts can be very similar in behavior and qualities the people do not accept them to be the same. It has something to do with humans desire to resist change, even if the change is positive. The materialistic nature of religions hangs tooth and nail on holy books even if they have in practice ignored the majority of the rules presented in the books. Add to the mix the xenophobic teachings in the holy books which validate dominating all those of not like us and you have modern day world.
But the extremes grow out of from various interpretations of bible and quran by each penny and dime preacher, mullah and what not. Christianity is so fragmented that it is a chore to even try to find out what each and every commenter means with the word christianity. Same goes with muslims who have the same problem. Even if they believe in few common items the rest is all up for grabs.
The variants which allow one thing, deny one thing and believe to be the only one having it right is not a suitable soil for harmonious growth.
Organized religion is very comparable to a field let to grow wild. There will be many different type of plants, weeds and grass. Majority will always be of the same type, some generic type of grass or weed but the different ones are what cause the problems. There will be nice flowers and not so nice burrs. The flowers, even if nice looking can often be poisonous to animals, the burrs, well you know what kind of problems those make.
And the kicker is this, field that is left to grow wild changes, after a while the original plants no longer grow there. The whole ecosystem has evolved to a state that is totally inimical to the original plants.
Lets assume there is a christian who believes in god but has discarded the bible, dogma and organization sans the golden rule. Would we have much trouble with such a person? Would he still be a believer? I would say he is and that is also the problem with many religious people today. They believe that atheism wants to take away their faith. What other atheists want, I do not know, but I would not mind them getting rid of the organizational aspect, the dogmatic aspect and specially the selectively literalism and return to the basics,
Your age is not a problem, you just have so much more time than older people to effect the change. Just set the goals to achievable as all human accomplishments are build upon the gradual increase.
Overnight change is seldom beneficial as the weeding out process for faulty advances is missing.
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July 8th, 2010 at 8:29 am
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July 18th, 2010 at 10:24 pm
This was a BRAINWASHING camp for kids. The kids will forever be mentally damaged, and unable to cope with reality. Wouldn’t this be considered mental and emotional abuse by Social Services?