UPDATE 9/19/2006 - Original clip is now active again!
If you’re a parent like me and are desperately seeking new and exciting ways to entertain your children… then today is your lucky day! This summer, why don’t you send your little boy or girl to the Kids on Fire Summer School and Ministry in Devil’s Lake, North Dakota. Here, your child (as young as 6) will learn the proper way to be a born again Christian. They will become well versed in political activism and radical views.
Still not sure if it’s right for your precious little ones? Lucily, A&E films has created an extensive documentary on the camp so just sit back and enjoy. If after viewing you’ve decided to have your kids saved, then please sign them up and tell them gasmonso sent you to receive %20 off! Now please, just kick back and enjoy this truly horrific beautiful video clip.
Related posts:
- Jesus Camp On The Lam
- Camp Out–Where It’s Ok To Drop The Soap
- The Evolution Of Summer Camp
- Jesus Freaks–The Documentary
- Good Evening Godless Sodomites
July 12th, 2006 at 9:18 am
“Are you afraid yet little children? NO?!?! Then you’re not paying attention!”
Seriously, telling these young people that “The Devil goes after the young” is nothing short of fear-mongering. The ONLY purpose of causing undue fear is for the purpose of manipulation. These kids are made to believe that if they don’t agree with everything these adults are telling them, then some powerful and evil mythological creature is going to get them.
WARNING: If rants annoy you, stop reading here.
Fear is the enemy of free choice. If you are made to fear all alternative save one, you truly have no choice in the matter. I’m finding it tough to articulate the level of disdain I have for people who use fear as a motivator. It’s just plain evil. Here in the US, fear is now peddled in our churches, government, and news (especially local news). I’m fed up with it! I’m not afraid of hell (there is no such thing), I’m not afraid of terrorists (I’m much more likely to die during my daily commute), and I’m not afraid of crime (I take sensible precautions)! All of these groups are trying to limit our freedom. The church wants to take away an individual’s right to make moral choices. The government wants to take away privacy and due process. The evening news subtlety or indirectly supports stronger police powers by over-inflating the importance and frequency of crime (because it gets ratings). I am so angry at this culture of fear that it boarders on hatred. I do not want to hate these people (I try not to hate anyone), but my tolerance apparently has limits. If you fear hell, save your own soul, don’t force me to save mine. If you fear terrorism and crime, go live in a bunker, don’t suspect me without cause and don’t punish anyone for what they might do.
I, for one, am more than willing to risk a terrorist attack in order to enjoy my freedom to the fullest, live my life according to moral principles that I believe, and walk through my city despite the small risk of becoming a victim of crime. I short, I REFUSE TO BE AFRAID!
Notice some general trends over the past decade and a half in this country:
Violent crime is way down.
Prison populations are swelling.
Reporting of violent crime is way up.
Civil liberties are on the decline.
Did I mention that violent crime is way down?
July 12th, 2006 at 9:36 am
Glad to see you back in good form sidfaiwu! It’s not the same when you’re gone ;)
On a serious note though, I find this camp to be absolutely disturbing. Treating kids in such a manner is sick. The funny thing I bet most of their parents criticize Muslim extremists, when they themselves are equally insane. This country (read:US) is screwed if this crap takes off mainstream.
My hope is that someone who supports this will speak up and explain themselves.
gasmonso
July 12th, 2006 at 10:10 am
sidfaiwu said: “Seriously, telling these young people that “The Devil goes after the young†is nothing short of fear-mongering. The ONLY purpose of causing undue fear is for the purpose of manipulation. These kids are made to believe that if they don’t agree with everything these adults are telling them, then some powerful and evil mythological creature is going to get them.”
In another situation, I would agree with you. But you need to keep in mind that these adults actually believe what they are telling their children. They honestly believe that the devil is out there actively trying to screw up their children’s lives. So when they tell these children that “the devil goes after the young,” what they’re honestly trying to convey to their children is, “the devil will try to screw up your lives in various ways, so beware and actively pursue righteousness.” While you may view this as no less sad, it paints the adults in a considerably less evil light than your assumption that they’re merely trying to turn their children into mindless drones through fear.
sidfaiwu said: “The church wants to take away an individual’s right to make moral choices.” and: “If you fear hell, save your own soul, don’t force me to save mine.”
I’ve been a southern baptist church member since I was very young and I have yet to experience any church I’ve attended trying to take away my freedom to make moral choices. All the churches have done in that regard has been to teach me what they believe to be the consequences for actions and beliefs that they view to be incorrect. Now, if you’re referring to politicians claiming affiliation with the church, then I agree with you.
Also, it is my belief, as a christian, that Jesus has saved my soul from hell. However, while I might want to tell friends and loved ones about this very personal thing that has been a benefit to me, I would never try to force anyone to believe as I do. In fact, I believe that attempting to do so is not only detrimental to the evangelical cause, but also damned annoying.
As for the rest of what you said, I pretty much agree with you. And I do believe that the people in the video are silly. There are more importants things to worry about than your kids reading/watching Harry Potter or listening to Lindsay Lohan.
July 12th, 2006 at 10:26 am
UncleMidriff, just because these adults truly believe it, doesn’t make it any less wrong. Ignorance is no excuse. Look how many suicide bombers firmly believe that blowing up civilians is good and noble… does that make them any less evil?
No it doesn’t.
P.S Glad to have a Christian reader contributing! Thanks :)
gasmonso
July 12th, 2006 at 11:27 am
The assertion made was that these adults are trying to use fear to manipulate these children, in order to control them. I think that is untrue.
If they were trying to do that, to control children through fear, but thought that doing so was a good thing, then I could see how your point applies to this situation. But they aren’t trying to control the control children through fear; they are trying to get the children to read less Harry Potter. :-)
Of course, I guess one could view trying to get children to read less of something as a form of control. I don’t. I see it as looking out for the children. For whatever reason, these people think that reading Harry Potter is bad. Though I think that idea is positively stupid, I don’t fault them for instructing their children to stay away from what they perceive as a threat.
I guess I don’t see the harm in telling kids to stay away from Harry Potter. Now, if these adults were telling the children to go kill the author of Harry Potter, that’d be a different story entirely.
P.S. Thank you! I’m glad to be here.
July 12th, 2006 at 11:35 am
Okay, I’ve watched the video again and that lady does come awfully close to advocating the killing of warlocks. While I’m going to give her the beneift of the doubt and hope that she’s just speaking hyperbolically, she is way out of line and needs to shut up.
July 12th, 2006 at 11:44 am
THIS SITE IS A BASTION OF BLASPHEMY AND I CONDEMN IT TO HELL BY THE NAME OF OUR LORD AND SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST. THE AUTHORS HERE ARE DOING THE DEVILS WORK AND THE WRATH OF GOD WILL BE UPON YOU. PRAISE HIS NAME!!
THIS CAMP SHOWS HOW WE MUST PROTECT OUR PRECIOUS CHILDREN FROM THE SATANIC FOLLOWERS SUCH AS THE READERS OF THIS SITE, SHAME BE UPON THEM!
JESUS CHRIST OUR LORD PROCLAIMED THAT WARLOCKS AND MUSLIMS ARE INDEED SOLDIERS OF THE DEVIL AND MUST BE ERADICATED FROM OUR MIDST! THE SATANIC ARABS AND MUSLIMS ATTACKED US ON 9/11 AND WE WILL NOT REST UNTIL THE VERY LAST ARAB MAN WOMAN AND CHILD IS DEAD AND CHRIST IS VICTORIOUS!! HALLELUJAH PRAISE HIM!!
GOD BLESS AMERICA
July 12th, 2006 at 11:56 am
@ Warrior:
Cool! So you’re saying that Gasmonso and the readers of this site will be going to hell? Yes! Hell just got a lot more interesting than heaven!
See ya there, Gasmonso! Let’s start planning the party early!
July 12th, 2006 at 12:06 pm
Warrior from Christ is undoutbly a joke, though it’s no less funny even if it’s not meant to be.
“JESUS CHRIST OUR LORD PROCLAIMED THAT WARLOCKS AND MUSLIMS ARE INDEED SOLDIERS OF THE DEVIL”
My favorite part, considering Islam didn’t come about until well after the death of christ. :)
July 12th, 2006 at 12:15 pm
HELL IS NO JOKE SINNERS. KEEP LAUGHING AND YOU WILL BURN FOR ETERNITY. NOW IS THE TIME TO REPENT!!
JESUS IS THE LIVING GOD AND HE SPEAKS THROUGH HIS CHOSEN AND HAS COMMANDED THE DEATH OF THOSE BLASPHEMERS AND NON BELIEVERS WHO WAGE WAR ON US.
DID YOU KNOW ARABS WERE SPAWNED BY THE DEVIL HIMSELF?? ABRAHAM WAS SEDUCED BY HIS SERVANT GIRL SENT BY THE DEVIL AND ISHMAEL WAS BORN CURSE HIS NAME!!
GOD BLESS AMERICA
July 12th, 2006 at 1:03 pm
That is one sharp little girl at the beginning. She’ll last long as a christian.
July 12th, 2006 at 1:10 pm
just one question, who created the devil? and why?
yes I know it is a stupid question… but that just came to my mind right now =P
July 12th, 2006 at 1:22 pm
God created the devil to keep people like you in order! Now do as he says :)
Seriously, Christians see the devil as a fallen angel.
He was cast down to hell for waging war against God. That’s the simplified version :)
gasmonso
July 12th, 2006 at 2:04 pm
Hello UncleMidriff,
It is not what they are teaching the children that bothers me so much as how they are teaching them. They are trying to motivate kids by making them fear the devil. There are other methods that are much less subversive to free choice.Hello UncleMidriff,
It is not what they are teaching the children that bothers me as much as how they are teaching them. They are trying to motivate kids by making them fear the devil. There are other methods that are much less subversive to free choice.
Let’s take a child’s choice to read a J.K. Rowling novel for example. Instead of guiding them through any reasons Christianity would disapprove of the book or educating them on how to interpret everything they read from a Christian perspective, they instead tell them that if they read it, the devil will f&*# up their lives. This leaves them with no choice. They cannot choose to read the book because they are afraid that doing so will expose them to Satan. Using either of the other two methods will enable a child to still choose to read the book and then decide if the message was immoral or not. If they’ve been taught correctly (from a Christian perspective), then they will decide for themselves that reading such material is wrong.
Now a quick note on what they are teaching. Their condemnation of Harry Potter implies that anyone who reads such books has been ‘gotten’ by Satan. Implicit in this is that Harry Potter fans are to be considered evil or at least tainted. It’s a bad message.
Also, in reference to taking away moral choice; I was, indeed referring to the politicians that claim an affiliation with Christianity. That being said, the US is (at least in theory) is a representative democracy. Thus I am also referring the hoards of fundamentalists that have been voting those politicians into office for the purpose of legislating Christian morality. Furthermore, I am referring to political groups that advocate deontological laws. So while I agree that individually fundamentalists are not trying to subvert moral choice, collectively, they definitely are.
Side Note: God I love these sorts of discussions!
July 12th, 2006 at 2:15 pm
Exactly Sidfaiwu. One thing I don’t like is when people tell someone to do something for fear of reprisal. Now, while they might be teaching them something worthy and appropriate… they should explain why it is such.
For example, I don’t tell my son to stay away from the stove because he’ll go to hell if he doesn’t. I explain to him that it is dangerous and could result in injury, etc…
If these parents truly believe Harry Potter is evil, then explain yourself instead of using the fear of Satan to scare kids into agreeing with you.
It’s just insane.
gasmonso
July 12th, 2006 at 2:45 pm
I CALL FOR A JIHAD AGAINST THE WARRIOR FOR CHRIST!
ALLAHU AKBAR!
July 12th, 2006 at 2:55 pm
sidfaiwu: very well put!
July 12th, 2006 at 5:56 pm
“DID YOU KNOW ARABS WERE SPAWNED BY THE DEVIL HIMSELF?? ABRAHAM WAS SEDUCED BY HIS SERVANT GIRL SENT BY THE DEVIL AND ISHMAEL WAS BORN CURSE HIS NAME!!”
And how did you find out about this? Probably read it in some kind of book, like the one about Harry Potter.
Did you know that there are warlocks and witches living among us.
July 12th, 2006 at 6:03 pm
“Seriously, Christians see the devil as a fallen angel.
He was cast down to hell for waging war against God.”
That tells us something about how mighty God is. He can’t even keep his angels under control.
July 12th, 2006 at 6:08 pm
That girl in the beginning seems to be saying she doesn’t believe in guys and girls? And yet they exist. Isn’t that odd?
July 12th, 2006 at 6:56 pm
You can tell the Warrior for Christ posts are a joke because the words are all spelled correctly.
July 12th, 2006 at 10:30 pm
I swear, Christians are really out to take over the world. And they admit it.
July 12th, 2006 at 11:23 pm
Wow. This is like a look back into my childhood. I never actually went to church camp, but I went to enough “revivals” that my parents of course attended to have heard these types of canned sermons hundreds of times.
Fundamental Christianity is a religion built on two things: Fear and money. They try to sugar coat it with the “God Loves You!” message, but at the core, it’s beyond disturbing what is taught.
July 13th, 2006 at 11:33 am
That is a really fair video to judge an entire Christian summer camp. I mean, the first half shows some kids singing and dancing. WHAT AN ATROCITY! The second half is one speaker that doesn’t like Harry Potter. OH NOES!
I’m glad I didn’t go there or I would have “become well versed in political activism and radical views.” I would be sitting outside of the White House AS WE SPEAK holding a sign that reads BURN POTTER.
July 13th, 2006 at 3:21 pm
Really now, I think that we can’t just let religious fervor alone. Religious fervor from Christianity is just as terrible as that of Muslims or Jews. We canot condone Christian extremeism as we condescend against that of Muslims. And really now, are we ignorant about the fact that church and state grow ever more entwined in this country. I am no atheist, but I damn well believe that the church should not have undue influence on the state.
July 13th, 2006 at 3:51 pm
Sometimes, I just feel the increadible urge to go to one of those meetings, and constantly ask “why?”, “How?” and “But isn’t that…?”
Most Christians hardly know what they “believe” and haven’t really thought about it either. Really, if you want to have a fun day AND piss of someone you probably won’t like, ask some who just came out of church why they believe.
July 13th, 2006 at 6:41 pm
“Seriously, Christians see the devil as a fallen angel.
He was cast down to hell for waging war against God.â€
That tells us something about how mighty God is. He can’t even keep his angels under control.
What it should instruct you in is a little something called “free will.”
I’ve never met anyone who actually thought their kids would be turned forever to the darkside for reading something written by J.K. Rowlings, but if I met one I would ask them if they also forbid their children from reading Shakespeare (double, double, toil and trouble) or Tolkein (also chock full of magic and magical creatures). It’s like Wal-mart… they won’t sell music with explicit lyrics but they’re happy to schlep the unrated version of American Pie. Hypocrits, every last one of them.
July 13th, 2006 at 10:17 pm
I a
July 14th, 2006 at 1:01 am
I am a Christian. I didn’t even watch the video clip because religious extremists scare me.
I have only been to church a couple of times and didn’t like the people there who are very hypocritical.
However, that doesn’t change my beliefs. In response to Alcari, I wouldn’t be a fun Christian to “mess with.” If asked why I believe, I would say that deep down in my heart I always knew He existed and reading the bible makes me feel good inside. No one else in my family is a believer, so no I wasn’t brainwashed as a child. I happen to be an intelligent, Democratic person who just happens to be a believer.
We are not all freaks. Many people on this website seem to think that every Christian is the same. No two people are the same. “Nuff said”
July 14th, 2006 at 7:15 am
Amber, you come off as a somewhat hostile Christian. Nobody here (well at least not everyone) is calling Chrisitians freaks. Ok, this site focuses on extremism. Sure I make fun of religion, but a little dose of humor is all thats needed. I, as do many here, respect people’s beliefs. So please… just relax and share your thoughts with us. I have learned a lot from the religious types that contribute here.
Regards,
gasmonso
July 14th, 2006 at 1:56 pm
wow, I didn’t realize I seemed hostile!! lol I guess thanks for pointing that out.
I simply said what I did because reading through a lot of the responses to the “articles” I guess, seem to always say “yeah those damn Christians, always pushing their religion on me” or “yeah, why can’t Christians just leave me alone?” Maybe certain ones, but I have never pushed my beliefs on anyone and don’t like being shoved into a category with people who just happen to share my beliefs on the afterlife.
That’s like saying all atheists are Satan worshippers trying to burn our children or some crap. I was just saying not all Christians send their children to some sort of crazy Jesus camp. I’d be afraid of what they were telling my children!
July 14th, 2006 at 2:18 pm
Amber, Atheists can’t be satan worshippers since we don’t believe in God who created Satan in the first place. But I suppose Atheists could be considered puppy killing monsters who drink the blood of babies ;)
Welcome to Religiousfreaks and I hope to see you around more!
gasmonso
July 14th, 2006 at 7:11 pm
I wish I could see the whole thing.
July 15th, 2006 at 7:12 pm
Mmmmm…fresh killed puppies.
July 15th, 2006 at 8:16 pm
…what I find most interesting is that some religious fanatics (read: not ALL Christians) will spout on and on about how the Bible condemns the so-called occult and all its surrounding lore as the “black arts”, but the Bible itself, especially the Old Testament, is one of the greatest occult books compiled! With tons of references to Astrology, Numerolgy, and Cabbalistic practices.
For myself, I’m a firm believer that any organised religion is just a front, an interface for something they may not fully be able to completely understand or comprehend. However, distilling it, breaking it apart, questioning it, is the track to obtaining a complete knowledge of everything we as mankind seek to know.
For myself, it’s just seems to “easy” to sit back and say “ok, God thought everything up, I’m forgiven through Jesus, and what happens, happens, because it’s all part of HIS plan.” It isn’t that easy IMHO. There is a category of knowledge, of the unknown, that we could seek out and perhaps it explains it all, and perhaps it doesn’t. For me, the journey, and finding out if its one God/Goddess, or many Gods/Goddesses, or none of the above is the most exciting part. :)
July 17th, 2006 at 2:32 pm
Ahhh but see Laura, Tolkien was a Christian so that gives him an out and while most American Chrisitans have read Shakespeare, he’s not exactly a best seller these days now is he? I’m not saying Rowling is evil (unless writing middling fantasy is a sin) but it’s not just about the magic.
Christians who find Potter evil would probably be equally voiciferous about any popular fantasy by a non-Christian author. Especially if it is as appealing to the little ones as this is. Heck, for that matter some really out there Christians are ashamed of the Chronicles of Narnia.
July 20th, 2006 at 2:23 am
Aaaah! Aaaah! Flashbacks! Ahhh!
I had to go to Bible Camp as a kid too. Hey, suprise, I’m not religious anymore!
This was EXACTLY what it was like. SPOT ON.
We had an anti-gay talk one day with one of those big camp ladies who took out one of those baby toys with the square pegs into the square holes, circular into the circular holes, you know what I mean, and she started jamming the square peg in the cicular hole and going “It goes in the hole it’s mean to go into!”
Everyone else was taking it seriously (hate the sin, not the sinner), and I guess I was the only kid to get it, I almost died trying to keep the laughter in.
Remeber kids, it takes “5 good Christian tries to spread the Good Word!”
Ack. I just wanted to go canoeing at camp.
July 25th, 2006 at 9:22 pm
[...] This summer, why don’t you send your little boy or girl to the Kids on Fire Summer School and Ministry in Devil’s Lake, North Dakota. Here, your child (as young as 6) will learn the proper way to be a born again Christian. They will become well versed in political activism and radical views.read more | digg story [...]
July 27th, 2006 at 10:03 am
As a Christian, I found this small video clip to be somewhat disturbing as were some of the derogatory comments e.g. ‘he can’t even keep his angels under control’.
That being said, I think one of the most important points to make is that you shouldn’t simply group all Christians together (extremists with non-extremists), nor should you group all posters on this forum together (derogatory commenters and non d. commenters).
There are many Christians, and obviously me, who disagree with targeting children the way that you see in this video or even in less extreme ways, when it comes to wanting them to understand and persue the Christian faith. Free will is indeed a gift from God and ‘brainwashed’ children (or adults) deny free will. This denial of ‘free will’ actually diminishes the glory and power of God. God’s glory and greatness is truly manifested in the Christians who fully understand, believe, and worship Him. If God really wanted to just have ‘mindless’ followers, he wouldn’t give us the freedom to choose. I have put considerable thought into my Christian faith, especially since I considered leaving it at one point.
P.S. I very much enjoy reading the Harry Potter books. They are entertaining and expouse many good principles and values: chivalry, courage, honor, duty, good over evil, deep friendships, the value of family and friends, equality of life, and I could keep going. These are many values that I value and that my god understands and values as well :)
Cheers,
noah
August 4th, 2006 at 4:18 pm
Wow! I like this discussion (and website)…and I’m a fundamentalist Christian. It intrigues me to see what non-believers say about religion, God, Hell, and Christians. Since you all seem to be quite intelligent and well-read, you are aware that C.S. Lewis was a scholar, a philosopher, and maintained an inerrant view of the Scriptures. The authority on which we Believers base our beliefs has nothing to do with a church, denomination, preacher, politician, or even personal feelings.
When someone makes a bold statement, I want to know by what authority he can make such a statement. When Christ preached to the masses (and the religious leaders of His time), the Pharisees rightly asked him by what authority he could make such outlandish pronouncements. He had God the Father as His authority.
The reason why Believers and non-Believers have such a hard time discussing just about anything of a serious nature is that they can’t agree on Authority.
My authority is the Scriptures. If I can’t back up my beliefs with Scripture, then I need to keep my mouth shut. When non-believers base their authority on personal experience with hypocritical Christians or some flavor-of-the-month humanist author, then I know that there will be no commonality with which to frame a meaningful discussion. All I can do at that point is hope to convince that person, like C.S. Lewis often did, that the Scriptures are authentic and applicable.
August 5th, 2006 at 5:56 pm
All gods and allahs and jesus’ are fake heros and those who worship them are “hero wordshippers”. There is no god or jesus or zeus or any other hero god. Its all made up and fake…..where are the dinasours…..in the creation story.
If there is a fall from grace we better get busy figuring out just what”grace” is? All this made up stuff after that fact is called “dual-mind”….we are all dual-minded individuals removed from devine mind….NO GODS THERE….IN THE ETERNAL THERE!
I HAVE BEEN IN A DIFFERENT REALITY WITH BLISS AND ECTASY….THERE WAS NO GOD THERE….ONLY GODLINESS…..WE ARE REMOVED FROM GODLINESS …THAT IS WHAT GRACE IS ITS THE DOOR OF GODLINESS.
THERE IS NO GOD!
August 5th, 2006 at 10:37 pm
I’m so happy that there are some sane people left.
Thank god? (I’m agnostic)
And so sad that the insanity of mindless indoctrination on unprotected minds is so prevalent.
Your site is a whiff of fresh air
Thank you
August 5th, 2006 at 11:20 pm
Well, when I came here, I wasn’t able to watch the video clip… But this discussion makes me want to watch the movie. Michael Moore has never failed me.
It seems like I’m a rare breed of Christian… I’m not Conservative and I like to keep an open mind. I’m not saying that all Christians are close-minded… but the ones we’re discussing are.
Lady Cooper, your description of bible camp disturbs me.
Depite what a lot of people are saying, lately, gays aren’t hurting anyone. If you think they’re going to Hell, keep it to yourself. I don’t even believe in a Hell, so I don’t really care! What they do in their own bedrooms makes no difference to me, you, or (believe it or not) God. I’m pretty sure He has a lot more to deal with than two men loving each other. Shouldn’t we just be happy that there is love in that relationship?
What is really against God is a man who beats his wife and doesn’t really love her. THAT is sin.
Sorry for getting off the subject a little…
What bugs me about people like the ones in “Jesus Camp” is that they base all of their politics and radical views on what someone tells them. And if you try to tell them otherwise, your opinions are crock and you’re going to Hell.
They make no sense, anyway. Ask one of them to try to explain their views, and it’s a bunch of nonsense.
Sorry if I don’t sound as educated as all of you… I’m only fifteen. Not all youth is corrupted and brainwashed!!
–Jawska.
P.S. Ignorance is no excuse for being stupid.
August 5th, 2006 at 11:45 pm
Jawska:
You call yourself a Christian (a follower of Christ), but you don’t believe in Hell. In the Gospels, Christ talks about Hell on numerous occasions. You are young, and you are open-minded. My advice is to read the Scriptures and get someone to help you understand them. Then you can have an informed opinion. Life is about seeking the Truth. Good luck on your journey.
August 6th, 2006 at 1:32 am
I appreciate the high level of intelligence and understanding exhibited here.
If I may I’ll ask a question, to those of you, who are of a religious belief.
Did you find that belief by yourselves, or was it a product of the influences upon you?
I ask this with all due respect.
I, myself, have no leanings towards any religion or any belief in a “Godâ€.
Nor do I reject or demean those who have.
I am a product of a marriage, of two vastly differing societies and two intelligent and caring individuals, and brought up in two countries with huge economic and social differences.
My parents never forced their opinions upon me, but nevertheless influenced me in different ways.
As did the various societies I had the luck to live in.
I had to think for myself to resolve all the conflicting data that was consistently bombarding my young mind.
Thus I’m fairly certain that my morals and thoughts are mine.
Not absolutely, but good enough to get through this life.
I find this a very precious gift and wish it upon every child.
August 6th, 2006 at 12:11 pm
Whatever opinions expressed here are of the DUAL-MIND TYPE. ALL PEOPLE MAKING COMMENTS HERE ARE OF RIGHT WRONG MIND. THEY ARE BASICALLY ALL THE SAME JUST DIFFERENT SIDES.
Humans have been formatted since early times with the same mind set. Humans are really Hue-mans with a third eye deactivated that is there for use to view Aura. Aura discloses the true energy field of the hue-man in its habitat in a energy field way. We have a viewer and a knowledge of “all that is”when we are operating at 100% in our more than pure environment….our problem is the infection of the dual-mind process that keeps us HUE-MANS at10% of our true heritage.
Our fall from “GRACE” is our reason for ALL OUR CONFUSION and SEARCH THROUGH OCCULTISM to find our true format.
Nagual wars of 1777 are about real hue-mans getting eliminated by the hue-man beings with the foreign installation known as the DUAL-MIND! tHATS US….THE ONES RUINING THE ENVIRONMENT BECAUSE THEY ARE OUT OF ORDER WITH THE ENVIRONMENT ORDER OF THINGS!
NAMASTE
August 6th, 2006 at 12:18 pm
IF YOU KNEW YOUR GOD YOU WOULD NOT HAVE TO BELIEVE!
BELIEF IS DISSING A GOD!
THERE IS ONLY ONE WAY BACK TO GODLINESS AND THE FEELING OF “ALL THAT IS”….KUNDALINI RISING FIND IT!
KUNDALINI RISING IS YOU COMPLETING YOUR PHYSICAL FEATURES THAT THE BODY POSSESS.
KUNDALINI IS ANOTHER BODY PART
KUNDALINI NEEDS TO BE ACTIVATED BEYOND THE GONADS!
HUMANS ARE GONAD MINDED!
NAMASTE EGO FLURISHERS……..GONAD SEEKERS…LOL
August 6th, 2006 at 2:55 pm
FanofCSLewis Says:
“Jawska:
You call yourself a Christian (a follower of Christ), but you don’t believe in Hell. In the Gospels, Christ talks about Hell on numerous occasions. You are young, and you are open-minded. My advice is to read the Scriptures and get someone to help you understand them. Then you can have an informed opinion. Life is about seeking the Truth. Good luck on your journey. ”
Thank you for the advice. I call myself a Christian because I believe Christ died for my (and everyone’s) sins, as this is what Christianity is… I do not remember Hell having anything to do with my Christianity. Even if there is a Hell, why would it matter to me? Is saving me from Hell not what Jesus died for? Perhaps you would like it better if I called myself something else… This is just how I interpret my religion, and I don’t think I need help “understanding”, as you suggested.
All I need to know is that I love my God and He loves me. If God thinks I need a little more than that, He will seek me out.
But again, thank you.
August 6th, 2006 at 4:18 pm
Jawska:
One last thing, and I’ll leave you alone…
There’s nothing wrong with admitting that you need help understanding. I’m 48 years old, and seek guidance and understanding everyday. I wish I had all the answers, but obviously I don’t. I can probably learn something from you as well. I was just suggesting to read the Scriptures yourself instead of listening to all the extreme skeptics out there. (By the way, I see nothing wrong with taking a skeptical viewpoint in your search for Truth.)
Christ’s redemptive work on the cross saved us from something. What did He save us from? The Scriptures claim that He saved us from eternal damnation. “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you shall be saved.” The converse is that if one does not believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, one shall not be saved.
So, as Christians, why should the concept of Hell be applicable to you or me? For one, it is good to know what we are being saved from? Secondly, it just might be very important to those non-believing souls that we are commanded to love.
August 7th, 2006 at 7:48 pm
Of course there’s nothing wrong in admitting I need help understanding. If I thought I did, I would admit it.
Since you have decided to end this conversation, that is where I leave it.
August 7th, 2006 at 9:13 pm
You guys have never experienced truth or ur heritage ur ego trippers lost on what you think is a path but its just another trail!
August 8th, 2006 at 9:50 pm
My children went to Becky Fisher’s camp last year. I, like you, have a huge problem with people doing dumb things in the name of religion. Remember, however, that the camp was filmed by a secular crew and, just like you want to be given the benefit of the doubt when the full context of one of your statements is not presented, Becky deserves the same. The preaching at the camp was very good stuff and did not play on kid’s fears. In fact, these kids are some of the most confident, optimistic, and couragous children you will ever meet. Does the devil want to take the young? Of course. Do my children know that? Of course. Are they scared? No. They walk with a surety of their relationship with Jesus and are not scared of terrorists, demons or the media. We could use more of that today.
August 9th, 2006 at 9:36 am
Tim O’brien
Belief…..you think your god would like it if it knew you had doubt….you don’t know your god? You believe there is a god…you don’t know ….you teach hope…you don’t know….you think those children don’t see your doubt and disbelief in your idea of a god…..unless you can produce your god you should HAVE KNOWLEDGE OF YOUR GOD…..NOT SOME DUUFESS THAT ALSO BELIEVES…..BELIEVING IS THE MOST DISRESPECTFUL THING YOU CAN DO TO A GOD….HAVE HOPE THERE IS ONE….UR WRIONG SO ALL THE PREP THE KIDS SEE THRU AND YOU BECOME JUST ANOTHER DUMB IDEA!~
August 10th, 2006 at 8:54 pm
I know some of the kids who went to Becky Fisher’s camp last summer. They are great kids. Please remember that film can be manipulated. Wouldn’t it be nice to see not only the whole film, but the whole 200 hours of cuts that didn’t make it into the finished product?
August 25th, 2006 at 1:09 am
Alcari Says:
“Sometimes, I just feel the incredible urge to go to one of those meetings, and constantly ask “why?â€, “How?†and “But isn’t that…?â€
Most Christians hardly know what they “believe†and haven’t really thought about it either. Really, if you want to have a fun day AND piss of someone you probably won’t like, ask some who just came out of church why they believe.”
I know you said “most Christians”, but most Christians I know do know why they believe.
I for one am a born again Christian, and was once a Christian bashing atheist. I am not calling any atheist here a Christian basher, but I was. I took pleasure in ridiculing, and humiliating them. Mind you none them returned my cruelty. I was mean, self-centered, and egotistical.
I had no religious upbringing. My conversion came from years of philosophical debate, and thought. (There are some brilliant Christian philosophers, and apologists out there.) That and I do believe the Holly Spirit was working on my heart as well, even though I did not believe in nor knew anything about the Holly Spirit at the time.
It would take up to much time and space to debate the merits of Christianity here. For those of you with open minds who would like to listen to or read from some intelligent well-spoken Christians I recommend the following:
Greg Koukl: Has a call-in radio show/podcast. He loves to debate theology, and was once an atheist. http://www.str.org
Hank Hanegraaff, aka The Bible Answer Man: Bible and biblical history expert. Also has a call-in radio show/podcast, and was also once an atheist. http://www.equip.org
Alistair Begg: A brilliant Scottish preacher. You can listen to his sermons at http://www.truthforlife.com.
C.S. Lewis: One of the most famous atheists turned Christian. He wrote one of the best books on the Christian faith: *Mere Christianity*. This book will make anyone think, and helped change my view of Christians. Read this book and you will never again believe all Christians are unintelligent. Of course his friend JRR Tolkien (another brilliant Christian) helped bring C.S. Lewis to faith in Jesus.
Here is a simple but helpful prayer to help anyone on their quest for God: “God if you are there please show me. God please reveal your truth to me.â€
August 27th, 2006 at 7:53 am
First of all, let me begin by saying that every Christian needs to read the Scriptures. It doesn’t matter what your age is or how much you think you know about Christianity. The Bible states in verse 11 of Acts 17, “These were more noble minded than those in Thessalonica for they received the Word with great eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see whether these things were so.”
Secondly, the Devil’s fall from was because of his Pride and attempted overthrow of God. He absolutely exists and uses fear, doubt, disbelief, pain, suffering and even joy in his war against God. Although I’d rather not quote a movie as a source, this line is relevant and true. “The greatest trick the Devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn’t exist.†(The Usual Suspects)
Lastly, even though I don’t agree with the incoherent ramblings of the vast majority of the posters here, I especially want to pose a question to the posters who allowed their children to go to this camp. What are the Pastors credentials? I went to the Jesus Camp website, the Christ Triumphant Church’s website, the F.I.R.E. Center’s website, as well as other various websites. Despite the overload of information available in this day and age, I couldn’t find the Seminary “Pastor†Becky Fischer went to. The Christ Triumphant Church’s accreditation from the Association of Theological Schools also eluded my search efforts.
In 2 Timothy 4:1-5 Paul summarizes the requirements of a faithful preacher: “I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by His appearing and His kingdom: preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort, with great patience and instruction. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires; and will turn away their ears from the truth, and will turn aside to myths. But you, be sober in all things, endure hardship, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry. ”
Have you ever read this? Since you sent your children to this camp, I am guessing not.
In Hosea chapter 4 we read this, “Listen to the Word of the Lord, O sons of Israel, for the Lord has a case against the inhabitants of the land because there is no faithfulness or kindness, or knowledge of God. They’re swearing, deception, murder, stealing and adultery.”
August 27th, 2006 at 10:57 am
“First of all, let me begin by saying that every Christian needs to read the Scriptures. It doesn’t matter what your age is or how much you think you know about Christianity. The Bible states in verse 11 of Acts 17, “These were more noble minded than those in Thessalonica for they received the Word with great eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see whether these things were so.—
You say that age doesn’t matter. So why force you’re children to swallow this stuff young. Would it not be better to give them unbiased information to make their own decisions, and have them read more into it if they choose (when they are old enough to know what they’re doing).
“Secondly, the Devil’s fall from was because of his Pride and attempted overthrow of God. He absolutely exists and uses fear, doubt, disbelief, pain, suffering and even joy in his war against God. Although I’d rather not quote a movie as a source, this line is relevant and true. “The greatest trick the Devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn’t exist.†(The Usual Suspects)”
This is not an argument. You’ll find no one here is impressed by your because Jesus said so logic.
August 27th, 2006 at 11:01 am
“Lastly, even though I don’t agree with the incoherent ramblings of the vast majority of the posters here, I especially want to pose a question to the posters who allowed their children to go to this camp.”
Name calling also is not a valid argument. You simply dismiss viewpoints you are unwilling to even think about examining as incoherant ramblings.
August 27th, 2006 at 5:16 pm
Your Father Says:
“You say that age doesn’t matter. So why force you’re children to swallow this stuff young. Would it not be better to give them unbiased information to make their own decisions, and have them read more into it if they choose (when they are old enough to know what they’re doing).”
Proverbs 22:6 states; “Train up a child in the way he should go, even when he is old he will not depart from it.”
Your Father Says:
“This is not an argument. You’ll find no one here is impressed by your because Jesus said so logic.”
If no one here is impressed by what Jesus said, then no one here is a Christian. In order to have a Christian discussion, one must believe the Bible is the final authority on every matter.
August 27th, 2006 at 7:41 pm
“If no one here is impressed by what Jesus said, then no one here is a Christian. In order to have a Christian discussion, one must believe the Bible is the final authority on every matter.”
A majority of the people on using this site are atheists/agnostics. (it’s called “religious freaks”…) You’re preaching beliefs for the sake of beliefs. There’s no objective criticism, no logic, and certainly no valid arguments.
Instead of just saying what to believe, argue why we should believe… Maybe why you believe and what makes sense about your beliefs.
As it seems now, you sound like one of these brainwashed children with no idea why you believe what you do.
August 27th, 2006 at 10:43 pm
Two Cool Guys:
1. C.S. Lewis
2. Garry Larson
Two Foolish Guys:
1. Jim Bakker
2. Michael Moore
Talented Guys Who Are Out to Lunch:
1. Mel Gibson
2. Tom Cruise
August 28th, 2006 at 6:03 pm
Your Father Says:
“Instead of just saying what to believe, argue why we should believe… Maybe why you believe and what makes sense about your beliefs.”
Fair enough, I’ll tell you why I believe.
Unfortunately, my family never pressured me into any particular way of thought in regards to religion. In fact, my family is one of the most non-Christian families I know. I came to believe in Jesus Christ on my own. No outside pressure from friends, family or society.
Like many of the posters here, I probably grew up more atheist than anything. I trusted science over God. I said if God created everything, who created God? I asked why does He allow pain, suffering and death? Well, three near death expericences later, I have found those answers. I have found those answers and the answers to every question ever posed. It is in a thick book called the Bible.
To address Jawska, yes God does care what two men do in the bedroom, he says it plain as day in Leviticus 18:22 “Do not have sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman; that is detestable.”
I believe in the Bible because it is an accurate account of the Creation, Jesus’ life, and the end times. Being a Christian has made me healthier, happier, smarter, richer and prepared for eternal life in paradise. The question is, Where do you want to go?
August 28th, 2006 at 6:24 pm
“Like many of the posters here, I probably grew up more atheist than anything. I trusted science over God. I said if God created everything, who created God? I asked why does He allow pain, suffering and death? Well, three near death expericences later, I have found those answers. I have found those answers and the answers to every question ever posed. It is in a thick book called the Bible.”
I just don’t get it. Now, I’m not calling you a liar, but I’m not exactly convinced about what you’re saying. Was it that three near death experiences caused you to become so frightened about death that you couldn’t live with the logical belief you held before hand?
“Like many of the posters here, I probably grew up more atheist than anything. I trusted science over God. I said if God created everything, who created God? I asked why does He allow pain, suffering and death? Well, three near death expericences later, I have found those answers. I have found those answers and the answers to every question ever posed. It is in a thick book called the Bible.”
There are many books out there that give “answers” like the bible. Why don’t you believe in the greek pantheon of gods, or budhism, or fly spaghetti monsterism? All three are equally valid, and would relieve your fear of death.
“I believe in the Bible because it is an accurate account of the Creation, Jesus’ life, and the end times. Being a Christian has made me healthier, happier, smarter, richer and prepared for eternal life in paradise. The question is, Where do you want to go?”
Why do you think it’s more accurate than the others? What makes it so special? There’s no actual evidence that Jesus even existed, and the existence of the bible doesn’t count. All other religions and cults have similar scripts and they are mutually exclusive.
As far as making you healthier, and all that jazz, could it not just be a placebo effect compounded with the bliss of believing in a fairy tale. I’m sure I’d be happier if I still believed in santa. The question is, do you want to face reality?
August 28th, 2006 at 7:33 pm
Man of God:
You said:
‘To address Jawska, yes God does care what two men do in the bedroom, he says it plain as day in Leviticus 18:22 “Do not have sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman; that is detestable.‒
But doesn’t Leviticus give explicit instructions regarding a lot of things that most Christians do not follow? Do you do any of these things:
1) Refuse to eat pork?
2) Follow the guidelines for ritual sacrifice (including humans)?
3) Put to death adulterers and children who curse their parents (Leviticus 20:9-10)?
4) Prohibit the handicap from approaching an alter? (Leviticus 21:16-23)
I could go on and on. Leviticus is full of strange laws that no Christian I know follows. But for some reason they latch on to the rather small mention of homosexuality.
If you don’t do these things, why should we take the prohibition against male homosexuality seriously? Why is it that Christians get to pick and choose the passages that they follow?
August 29th, 2006 at 3:53 pm
Everything in the Bible must be taken in context. Both Christians and non-Christians throw out verses, sometimes carelessly, in order to make their particular point.
In Leviticus, God speaks to the Israelite people about how to live, mostly to preserve their existence. There are many dietary laws and rituals that are given to the people in order to preserve the nation of Israel. It goes without saying that many of the Levitical laws do not apply to us today.
God is clear in Leviticus that homosexuality is detestable in His sight. So, the questions are: Does God feel the same way today as He did then? Does God even change? Do New Testament writings support the same view about homosexuality? How is God’s command about eating pork different from His command about two men having sex with each other?
August 29th, 2006 at 4:17 pm
Or maybe the Bible isn’t the word of God and was written by humans. Maybe the Bible simply reflects the cultural biases of its myriad of non-contemporary authors who wouldn’t agree with each other what truth is, be it moral truth or metaphysical truth. Maybe each generation has interpreted the same passages differently to reflect new cultural biases. Maybe we should put the books contained within into historical context and then decide if any parts of it (despite centuries of compiling, editing, revising, and translating) apply to anything we experience in the modern world. In short, maybe we shouldn’t rely on the Bible as a source of truth at all and definitely as a reason to restrict the rights of others.
August 29th, 2006 at 4:48 pm
FanOfCSLewis,
You said:
“God is clear in Leviticus that homosexuality is detestable in His sight. So, the questions are: Does God feel the same way today as He did then? Does God even change? Do New Testament writings support the same view about homosexuality? How is God’s command about eating pork different from His command about two men having sex with each other?”
One could easily interpret the prohibition against male homosexuality as being similar in nature to the prohibition against eating pork. It was likely more of a public health issue than anything else. Anal sex is known for spreading disease (without a condom) more so than other forms of sex.
Note that nothing is said about women and homosexuality. This suggests to me that it isn’t necessarily homosexuality that is the problem, but anal intercourse in particular.
August 30th, 2006 at 7:01 am
You Father Says:
“I just don’t get it. Now, I’m not calling you a liar, but I’m not exactly convinced about what you’re saying. Was it that three near death experiences caused you to become so frightened about death that you couldn’t live with the logical belief you held before hand?â€
It was not with a fear of death that I found Jesus. It was looking back on my experiences that I realized He was looking out for me. I am not afraid of death, quite the opposite actually. I look forward to living and worshipping with Jesus in paradise, however, do not confuse that with a wish to die. I enjoy my life on Earth with my friends and family. I even enjoy living with atheists, agnostics, Buddhists, Muslims, Jews and all other non-believers, for this life is the only one we will have together. Matthew 25:46 says “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”
Your Father Says:
“Why do you think it’s more accurate than the others? What makes it so special? There’s no actual evidence that Jesus even existed, and the existence of the bible doesn’t count. All other religions and cults have similar scripts and they are mutually exclusive.â€
Psalm 14:1 states “The fool [a] says in his heart, ‘There is no God.’ They are corrupt, their deeds are vile; there is no one who does good.†Even your fellow atheist and Darwin follower Prof. Richard Dawkins, states: “We have seen that living things are too improbable and too beautifully ‘designed’ to have come into existence by chance.â€
The following excerpt is from A Muslim Looks at Muhammad and Jesus: The story of Abdul Saleeb and what he discovered about Islam and Christianity. “But for me the most impressive factor about Christ was the multitude of Old Testament prophecies about the coming of the Messiah. Some of these prophecies were so specific and they were fulfilled in the life of Jesus to such a detail that it amazed me to see how God had taken hundreds of years of Jewish history to prepare the coming of the Messiah; prophecies ranging from Messiah’s ancestry, his manner and place of birth, his life and ministry to the circumstances surrounding his death by crucifixion. I was very attracted to Christ and yet I could not deny my own tradition and past. Becoming Christian seemed a definite betrayal of my own family and Islamic heritage. The tension in my life was so strong that I felt torn asunder between these two faiths.†There are approximately 332 Old Testament prophecies that Jesus fulfilled.
Your Father Says:
“As far as making you healthier, and all that jazz, could it not just be a placebo effect compounded with the bliss of believing in a fairy tale. I’m sure I’d be happier if I still believed in Santa. The question is, do you want to face reality?â€
Jesus answered them, “It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. Luke 5:31
Sidfaiwu Says:
“In short, maybe we shouldn’t rely on the Bible as a source of truth at all and definitely as a reason to restrict the rights of others.â€
Have you made up your mind about the gospel? Are you like Ahaz who told Isaiah, “I have made up my mind. Don’t disturb me. Don’t tell me facts”? I have spoken to some people about the gospel, but they have made up their minds, and they ask me not to disturb them. They do not want to listen to me. But when God sends someone to speak to us, he is demonstrating his love for us. In spite of our problems, difficulties, wickedness, and unbelief, God loves us enough to send someone to us. And what does he say? “Be careful. Be calm. Don’t be afraid. Everything will be all right. I will help you. You will stand by faith and trust in the sovereign Lord, rather than in this little Assyrian power.” By P. G. Mathew, M.A., M.Div., Th.M.
August 31st, 2006 at 4:42 pm
Matthew,
You raise a good point. I would like to investigate that further by looking at other Scriptures that deal with the subject. Could you or someone else supply me with some evidence in the Bible that sodomy is OK?
By the way, I do believe that God forgives all sinners, including sodomites, adulterers, tax cheats, liars, drunkards, child molesters, and even murderers.
August 31st, 2006 at 7:10 pm
FanofCSLewis,
You said:
“You raise a good point. I would like to investigate that further by looking at other Scriptures that deal with the subject. Could you or someone else supply me with some evidence in the Bible that sodomy is OK?”
I don’t think the Bible says the sodomy is “OK.” It ranks it along side of eating pork. It is unclean.
I do, however, think the Bible says that homosexuality is OK. Or at least it makes no prohibition against it. The Bible does not say that men should not have sexual relations. It says that a man should not lay down with another man as he would with a woman (no penetration).
Note that not all homosexual men engage in sodomy
August 31st, 2006 at 9:21 pm
Man of God Says:
“It was not with a fear of death that I found Jesus. It was looking back on my experiences that I realized He was looking out for me. I am not afraid of death, quite the opposite actually. I look forward to living and worshipping with Jesus in paradise, however, do not confuse that with a wish to die.”
Ok, I did not imply that you ARE afraid of death, I implied that you WERE afraid of death, before you decided to believe in a fairy tale to help you sleep at night, and I certainly never implied that you wanted to die. The only thing looking out for you was chance. For every time you didn’t die, millions of people suffered and died horrible deaths. Where was Jesus to save them? (a rhetoric question… I don’t really want more scriptures and optimistic interpretations thrown at me)
August 31st, 2006 at 9:34 pm
Man of God said:
“… There are approximately 332 Old Testament prophecies that Jesus fulfilled.”
When I said mutually exclusive, I meant to stuff that wasn’t in a book you already believe in. I can make up a book, and have another book fulfill it’s prophecies too! You proove nothing… There’s billions of people that don’t believe in either of your books. What makes christianity any more believable than the greek pantheon, I’m fairly sure they didn’t mention Jesus (but who knows, I’m sure you can find a lovely interpretation if you try hard enough). If you were born in that era, you’d eat up that crap instead, because it was the social norm.
“Jesus answered them, “It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. Luke 5:31″
Did I say you needed a doctor? Are you even talking to me? wtf are you talking about?
September 1st, 2006 at 9:31 am
Hello Man of God,
Thanks for the offer of an explanation of the Gospels. I have already read John and did not find much in the way of truth in that book. I also know that John is the most supernatural account of the four Gospels (there were more than four, but they didn’t survive popular consent in the 2nd and 3rd centuries) and the one that most ardently supports the claim that Jesus was a deity. So I guess you can say that I have made up my mind. If you do have some facts that support the validity of elements in the Gospels I’d be glad to take them into consideration, but there is much that they would have to overcome.
September 1st, 2006 at 9:47 am
Man of God said:
“Like many of the posters here, I probably grew up more atheist than anything.”
Actually I grew up as a devout Christian. I actively told all my non-christian friends that they were wrong and needed to accept Christ or they would suffer in the afterlife. I constantly wondered why all these people in the world just couldn’t see that they were wrong. I believed that the gospels were correct. Unfortunately I also believed that dinosaurs existed 65 million years before humans made the scene. I believed that the universe was quantumly banged into existence 14 Billion years ago, and that no human alive for thousands of generations from now would ever even see the sun blink out. I believed all this together with no conflicts. I took the creation and the apocolypse as just stories. Even in the bible no one was mentioned writing anything for quite a long time after the creation, so I thought “How could anyone actually know? They just wrote a very nice story that was doing justice to god.” The end of the world? Prophecies don’t always come true. I thought Revelations to be a warning of what would happen if the world became to evil. It could be averted, it wasn’t the end. I never really talked about this with too many people, but neither my mother and our priest at the time thought there was not a problem with me believing these things and still being a christian. I had accepted Jesus, the rest of the bible be damned, I was right with the correct parts. Then an arch-bishop visited our church to speak with people. He was especially interested in what the children’s beliefs were. When he got to me he was down right outraged. How could I not take it all literally. I told him that the science was there, was tested time and again and still held up. I told him that regardless of what I thought of the begining of time, I was still a good Christian. He would hear none of it and gave me a choice. Science or god. I couldn’t have both, I had to choose. He left it for me to decide. I went to church for only a few more times before I made the decision. After reading the bible a bit further, I decided not to give up the real world for a fairy tale. That’s where I’m coming from.
Man of God said:
“To address Jawska, yes God does care what two men do in the bedroom, he says it plain as day in Leviticus 18:22 “Do not have sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman; that is detestable.—
I know its been stated a few other times that leviticus has some odd laws that no christians follow, which is then countered by the Christians that “being gay is universily considered an abomination”. But hey look at this. If we’re going to use the abomination to you and god bit as the decider then every christian I know is doomed.
Leviticus 11:9-12 These shall ye eat of all that are in the waters: whatsoever hath fins and scales in the waters, in the seas, and in the rivers, them shall ye eat. And all that have not fins and scales in the seas, and in the rivers, of all that move in the waters, and of any living thing which is in the waters, they shall be an abomination unto you: They shall be even an abomination unto you; ye shall not eat of their flesh, but ye shall have their carcases in abomination. Whatsoever hath no fins nor scales in the waters, that shall be an ABOMINATION unto you.
Shrimp, crab, lobster, clams, mussels, all these are an abomination before the Lord, just as gays are an abomination. Kinda makes you think doesn’t it, while you’re eating Multigrain bread that was grown in the same field, tilled by a mule, wearing your half-cotton, half-wool blend shirt.
Man of God said:
“… There are approximately 332 Old Testament prophecies that Jesus fulfilled.â€
You’d be surprised how many people fufilled those in those days (and how many things the gospels said Jesus fulfilled that were mentioned nowhere else but the gospels). Quite a few virgin births that resulted in men healing the sick, feeding the hungry and performing miracles. Come to think of it, there’s no record anywhere that says my mother’s husband is infact my father. Hey, I might be a virgin birth too! Though after that recent preist, I don’t think I need to try walking on water.
September 1st, 2006 at 8:34 pm
(Hi this is my first post here *waves*) I grew up as a Southern Baptist and like Humanistic Jones says I was very evangelical and lost several friends through things like. Sorry to get off the subject that you guys are on, but on the subject of Bible camp, I had to go to church camp for years. Actually I enjoyed it and wanted to go, I de-converted and then this summer I attended Falls Creek Youth camp and boy was I shocked out how different it all seemed, it seemed like a huge brainwashing/money-making scheme to me. So I really can’t see this documentary as being to far from the truth.
Now back to the subject at hand I believe someone mentioned the morality of homosexuality. How many admonishments do most christians say there are towards homosexuality in the bible, well I don’t know the exact number. However, I do know that there are far more towards heterosexuals. Could this not mean that “god” only thinks that heterosexuals need to be watched more because they are apt to get into more trouble?
Anyway, just my thought on the subject, they are sure to be biased as they are coming from a bisexual teen, but whatever.
September 4th, 2006 at 7:44 am
Your Father Says:
“I can make up a book, and have another book fulfill it’s prophecies too! You proove nothing… “
Jewish historian Flavius Josephus, a member of a priestly family and who became a Pharisee at the age of 19, became the court historian for Emperor Vespasian. In the Antiquities, he wrote about many persons and events of first century Palestine. He makes two references to Jesus. The first reference is believed associated with the Apostle James. “…he brother of Jesus, who was called Christ.” He also wrote, “At this time there was a wise man who was called Jesus. And his conduct was good and (he) was known to be virtuous. And many people from among the Jews and other nations became his disciples. Pilate condemned him to be crucified and to die. And those who had become his disciples did not abandon his discipleship. They reported that he had appeared to them three days after his crucifixion and that he was alive, accordingly, he was perhaps the messiah concerning whom the prophets have recounted wonders.” These historical writings predated the Old Testament. Josephus died in 97 A.D.
Before Tacitus, Suetonius or Josephus, Thallus wrote about the crucifixion of Jesus. His writing date to circa 52 A.D. and the passage on Jesus was contained in Thallus’ work on the Eastern Mediterranean world from the Trojan War to 52 A.D. Thallus noted that darkness fell on the land at the time of the crucifixion. He wrote that such a phenomenon was caused by an eclipse. Though Christ was not proclaimed a deity until the fourth century, Pliny the Younger, a Roman author and administrator who served as the governor of Bithynia in Asia Minor, wrote in 112 A.D., two hundred years before the “deity” proclamation, that Christians in Bithynia worshipped Christ.
So, according to factual, historical information that was written well before the New Testament, a man named Jesus Christ actually lived and was actually crucified. Documentation of Christ’s life and death that would suggest the New Testament was not a fictional work, but a more detailed account of the Redeemer.
Your Father Says:
Did I say you needed a doctor? Are you even talking to me? wtf are you talking about?
Maybe the rest of the verse will bring the full meaning into plain view for you….”It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.” Luke 5:31
Humanistic Jones Says:
Since Leviticus is being scrutinized so much and arguing about context of the message will only lead to further disagreement, maybe another passage will help clarify God’s standards.
1 Corinthians 6:9-10 states, “Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.â€
Humanistic Jones Says:
Man of God said:
‘… There are approximately 332 Old Testament prophecies that Jesus fulfilled.’
“You’d be surprised how many people fufilled those in those days (and how many things the gospels said Jesus fulfilled that were mentioned nowhere else but the gospels). Quite a few virgin births that resulted in men healing the sick, feeding the hungry and performing miracles. Come to think of it, there’s no record anywhere that says my mother’s husband is infact my father. Hey, I might be a virgin birth too! Though after that recent preist, I don’t think I need to try walking on water. “
Listing all 332 prophecies will take too much time and space. I am not arguing the ambiguousness of some of them (i.e. Meek and humble, Isaiah 42:12 and tender and compassionate, Isaiah 40:11), however, there are some that only the Messiah could and would fulfill. Since it seems the average non-believer, or gentile as the bible calls them, will only entertain what they consider to be factual or historical, non-Scripture based material; I offer the following prophecyâ€
Jesus would be executed by crucifixion:
Isaiah 53:12 says:
“Therefore I will give him a portion among the great, and he will divide the spoils with the strong, because he poured out his life unto death, and was numbered with the transgressors. For he bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.â€
And as historical accounts have proven, a man named Jesus was crucified and buried. The following probabilities are taken from Peter Stoner in Science Speaks (Moody Press, 1963) to show that coincidence is ruled out by the science of probability. Stoner says that by using the modern science of probability in reference to eight prophecies, ‘we find that the chance that any man might have lived down to the present time and fulfilled all eight prophecies is 1 in 1017.” That would be 1 in 100,000,000,000,000,000. In order to help us comprehend this staggering probability, Stoner illustrates it by supposing that “we take 1017 silver dollars and lay them on the face of Texas. They will cover all of the state two feet deep.
“Now mark one of these silver dollars and stir the whole mass thoroughly, all over the state. Blindfold a man and tell him that he can travel as far as he wishes, but he must pick up one silver dollar and say that this is the right one. What chance would he have of getting the right one? Just the same chance that the prophets would have had of writing these eight prophecies and having them all come true in any one man.”
September 4th, 2006 at 11:42 am
I will send my son to the devil’s camo to learn that there is no GOD ,you should understand people that there is no GOD.
September 5th, 2006 at 12:23 am
Man of God said:
“Jewish historian Flavius Josephus, a member of a priestly family and who became a Pharisee at the age of 19, became the court historian for Emperor Vespasian. In the Antiquities, he wrote about many persons and events of first century Palestine…”
I can’t believe I read that whole thing. You just don’t get it. I’m not arguing that. You can’t justify stories with stories, plain and simple.
Have you ever played the telephone game? If not I’ll explain it. It is where people tell a phrase or story to each other privately, in a circle, and by the time it gets back to the person who started it, the phrase is often completely different.
This is especially important when it comes to ancient beliefs. People tend to believe what they want to believe, and will not hesitate to embellish where necessary. People also want to be able to explain things about the world are them. 2000 years ago, people had no other way to explain things, other than these stories.
Obviously you’ve studies a lot to try and justify your beliefs, most likely because they comfort you (everyone has their own reason, this is the most common). Do you really think you’ve studied the topic objectively? I don’t. You dig and dig for validation, and ignore mountains of inconsistencies and poor logic.
I’m not going to argue about the existence of a creator. That is a complicated and not so easily ignored topic, but these stories about angels and the devil and a half man half god with super powers are crazy, and no one believes them unless they really really want to (unfortunately there’s a surplus of these people).
September 5th, 2006 at 12:41 am
“And as historical accounts have proven, a man named Jesus was crucified and buried. The following probabilities are taken from Peter Stoner in Science Speaks (Moody Press, 1963) to show that coincidence is ruled out by the science of probability.”
Once again, these ancient historical account HAVE NOT proven anything. They are stories, maybe BASED ON true events and maybe not. There is no way to prove it without a time machine, because no current actual scientific or forensic methods can prove them. I’m not sure who that man was, but I’m sure he’s not a scientist in the truest sense of the word. Calling probabilities about stories science is not the action of a true scientist.
My point is, the probability is based on the assumption that all of the information about both the prophecies and Jesus are %100 true, and this CAN NOT be proven.
September 9th, 2006 at 8:58 pm
Man, this trailer gave me the CREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEPS.
Religion is going to determine who gets into the white house now..
Now we’re all fucked.
September 9th, 2006 at 9:55 pm
Howdy! I found your site (and this post) today, and am disappointed to learn that the video is no longer available on YouTube, at least the version/instance you’ve linked to/embedded. It sounds like it contains/contained footage that wasn’t in the trailer I’ve seen, and I’m very interested in seeing it (both the trailer and the movie).
Some of the quotes from commenters here are definitely not in video/materials I’ve been able to find elsewhere. Is there a chance I could convince you/someone else here to find this version of the trailer again and repost it? (Thanks in advance!)
Based on the reviews I’ve read, it appears to raise a number of issues for viewers, ranging from child abuse to dominionism to “media persecution of Christians.” I’m going to have to see it before I make a judgement/evaluation, but it certainly appears to give its subjects enough “rope” to “hang themselves.”
I’ve read that Ms. Fisher (the camp’s director) felt that the movie would be a good evangelism tool which seems to be directly contrary to the impressions of those who have seen it and haven’t already drank deeply of the “Deeper Christian Kool-Aid Well.”
Personally, I find it shocking to hear a twelve-year-old say that he accepted Jesus as his Personal Savior when he was five because he “wanted more of life.” How disappointed with life can one truly be at five years old? How much of life have you actually seen by five years of age? It surely sounds like he’s been spoonfed doctrine and vocabulary, and has essentially been brainwashed.
I understand and empathize with BLaZeMoNgEr’s sentiment, but I don’t think it’s time to give up hope and stop working to raise awareness of the evils of Dominionism and Christian Reconstructionism. Now is not the time to throw in the towel.
Now is the time to stand up and work towards returning America to the original intent of the Founding Fathers… Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness for ALL, irrespective of religious creed, racial origin, or socioeconomic status.
September 12th, 2006 at 11:58 am
One of the things i find extremely disturbing is when , missionarys go to places where poverty is high and convince people to convert. Tell me who wouldn’t convert for abit of food?
September 12th, 2006 at 12:38 pm
Rev. Dan said:
Now is the time to stand up and work towards returning America to the original intent of the Founding Fathers… Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness for ALL, irrespective of religious creed, racial origin, or socioeconomic status.
Huzzah to that. If we can make this counrty the secular nation it once was, where people aren’t afraid that their religion might lose members and thus cause them to lose power (this of course would be because NOONE’S religion is in charge). If we can get back to the days where people are free to worship as they please because they do it in their church pulpits and not at the science class blackboard and the senate floor. If we can return to a time where people were judged as patriots because they questioned half-thought policies and percieved injustices not because they quietly went along with everything their leader told them to. If we can get back to that, I could care less how many people are Christian, Jewish, Muslim, or what ever.
Most of my ire with organized religion comes from the harm that they do to the public with evangelism. I can’t force a friend to not eat bacon and eggs every meal every day anymore than I can convince Jerry Falwell that homosexuals are not sinful creatures. Its their personal beliefs on what is right and good. But if either tries to force me to do it or believe it because its what he feels is right, the line is drawn. Don’t like something? Change the channel, move away from it, don’t let it in your home, and don’t go looking for it. Its easier to control your own life than to expunge something you don’t like from the culture. Same goes for me. I get pretty ired by religion, but I wouldn’t dare to think that I could forbid people from being Christian because my beliefs tell me that its stupid and causes nothing but trouble. I just choose not to church, let missionaries in my house, keep a bible on the bookshelf, or watch the Christian Channels onto my TV. Its part of my persuit of happiness. I’m happy without god in my home and I pursue it.
And if you wonder, if anyone tried to outlaw any part of Christianity, I would stand up on the soapbox in christianity’s defense. That still doesn’t mean that I approve of a nativity scene at my public school (the methodist church down the road does a better one anyway) or Ten Commandments in my courtrooms (that Catholic Cathedral I went to once in Macon had a much more awesome looking representation of them anyway, much more befiting of your gods laws). I have to use and pay for public facilities, so no religion there. Your church’s property, that’s your business not mine. If they say you can’t have your stuff displayed there, I’ll protest with you.
Heh, I think my rant purge valve kinda went off there…
September 12th, 2006 at 1:01 pm
Rant away, Humanistic Jones. You speak for a lot of us in that post. We feel your frustration.
September 13th, 2006 at 1:19 pm
You liberals are good at crucifying People, Should I name a few, how about Jesus, how about George Bush? I think Becky Fischer is in good company!!
September 13th, 2006 at 1:32 pm
I spent the time to read this whole thread….
Humanistic Jones really hit it on the head!!!!!
Extremism can create real problems… Just pick up a newspaper or switch on CNN…. I have recently lost a very good friend to this sort of thing…. Severed in the Marines in the first Gulf war with him…
One Religion = Tyranny
Two Religions = Civil War
Many Religions = Peace
I used to consider myself conservative… I guess I still am in some respects… Don’t touch my guns….and make people responsible for their actions… However…This bullshit that I am going to be placed in a lake of fire forever….. (Yea Forever)… for not believing…. come on…. I simply in my greatest imagination can’t imagine a god like that… I love my family more than my life. I have gone to war for this country. I respect the Golden Rule….
I am a good person…Ah but not in gods eyes …I am a miserable sinner worthy of the worst imaginable punishment if I don’t number myself with those people in this new piece of celluloid. Sorry…Count me out!!!!
My advice … always question…. Ask the whys and the how comes, and the what if’s… It’s this all or nothing attitude…
Religion is about control.
What you think the literacy rate was 4k 2k 1k 500, 200 years ago… Things are not as they are today…
When you can’t read or write and all you care about is where your next meal is coming from and if you’re going to survive through the winter…. I am guessing you would believe just about anything…….
September 15th, 2006 at 8:21 am
Okay, I have read this entire post (to be fair enough and actually try to give an ear to all being said). Personally, I have a problem with a lot of things being said here. I will attempt to address some of them. I will attempt to do so in a loving manner - not because that was how I was raised or because I believe anyone deserves this, but because it is what my Savior taught.
First of all, if there is a fifteen year-old person who has figured out Christianity to the point that they don’t need to read Scripture or study it any more, they need to contact someone. There’s a lot of money to be made AND a lot of people to be helped by this incredibly insightful person. Most of them are over 30.
Second, let’s not confuse “religion” with “faith”. I have faith, given to me by God as a gift. I (sort of) belong to a religion, created by men to satisfy their needs to relate to God. God did not set out to create the Catholic church, nor any of the Protestant denominations - He set out to create us for relationship with Himself and each other.
Third, as to the “science or God” debate - it is stupid. Every day there are more and more scientific discoveries that lead us (those who don’t filter our scientific input to automatically exclude anything that disrupts a firm belief in naturalism/humanism/anti-religionism) to a greater wonder and marveling at how God created this universe. And there is REAL SCIENTIFIC evidence that proves that there WAS a man named Jesus of Nazareth (Christ was a designation, not his name) and that his life was pretty much as described in the Gospels (there were only 4 canonized, because they were contemporary - many of the other “gospels” were written by people whose grandparents were children when Jesus died). There is no argument, by those of us who are paying attention to the archaeological finds and evidence (archaeology is still a science, is it not?), that Jesus lived and that he lived and died pretty much where and when the Gospels say he did. Which then brings to mind the big question - IF he was just a man (btw, he was WHOLLY man AND WHOLLY God, not halvesies) and didn’t rise from the dead, why didn’t the Jews, who had the most to lose, present his body as evidence that he was dead and stayed dead? Or the Romans, who had slightly less at stake than the Jews?
As for the Bible not being reliable (since it is being called a self-contained “authority”), it has been scrutinized, criticized, researched, cross-referenced and tested in every way every other ACCEPTED historical document has been test - 5 TIMES OVER (that’s a direct quote from Greg Boyd, an apologist with his rep on the line) and it is more reliable in it’s historical accuracy than any other commonly accepted historical writing or documentation. If you refuse to believe the Bible because you don’t think it’s reliable enough, then start throwing out all of your books on Civil War history - ANYTHING you have to support a (mistaken) belief that this country was EVER a secular country.
For the separation-of-church-and-state crowd: this country was founded by Christians, on Christian beliefs and principles. Each of the founding fathers, even Thomas Jefferson who the anti-Christians love to parade about, stated at one point or another - in writing - that without religion (specifically Christianity) this country had no hope. The mention of separation of church and state was not to keep God out of our government, it was to keep the government out of the pulpit. I believe the first amendment reads guarantees us freedom OF religion, not freedom FROM it.
Finally, I would love to go through each entry and note the things that are inaccurate, due to ignorance or just plain hateful. But I’ll leave with this - anyone who thinks they don’t “believe” in a god or a religious system needs to take a REAL close look at what they DO believe in - if it’s Darwinistic evolution, that’s a bigger myth than the Spaghetti Monster. At least Darwin admitted that there IS a creator and his intent was to find where God stopped and nature took over - never was it his intent to prove there is no God.
P.S. Maybe the Greek pantheon is the way. Or Buddhism. Or Giant Spaghetti Monster. Or the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. You see, offering some silly story created out of fear (Greek gods), or a wise man (Buddha), or malice (Giant Spaghetti Monster) does NOT refute Christianity. It simply tells me that you don’t like my answer but you don’t have a viable alternative. So, don’t try to buffalo a (former) buffalo artist. I, too, grew up WAY outside the church.