UPDATE 9/19/2006 – Original clip is now active again!
If you’re a parent like me and are desperately seeking new and exciting ways to entertain your children… then today is your lucky day! This summer, why don’t you send your little boy or girl to the Kids on Fire Summer School and Ministry in Devil’s Lake, North Dakota. Here, your child (as young as 6) will learn the proper way to be a born again Christian. They will become well versed in political activism and radical views.
Still not sure if it’s right for your precious little ones? Luckily, A&E films has created an extensive documentary on the camp so just sit back and enjoy. If after viewing you’ve decided to have your kids saved, then please sign them up and tell them gasmonso sent you to receive %20 off! Now please, just kick back and enjoy this truly horrific beautiful video clip.
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- Hasta La Vista Baby Jesus
- Jesus Found In Mexico
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- Jesus Christ Supercop 5
You guys have never experienced truth or ur heritage ur ego trippers lost on what you think is a path but its just another trail!
My children went to Becky Fisher’s camp last year. I, like you, have a huge problem with people doing dumb things in the name of religion. Remember, however, that the camp was filmed by a secular crew and, just like you want to be given the benefit of the doubt when the full context of one of your statements is not presented, Becky deserves the same. The preaching at the camp was very good stuff and did not play on kid’s fears. In fact, these kids are some of the most confident, optimistic, and couragous children you will ever meet. Does the devil want to take the young? Of course. Do my children know that? Of course. Are they scared? No. They walk with a surety of their relationship with Jesus and are not scared of terrorists, demons or the media. We could use more of that today.
Tim O’brien
Belief…..you think your god would like it if it knew you had doubt….you don’t know your god? You believe there is a god…you don’t know ….you teach hope…you don’t know….you think those children don’t see your doubt and disbelief in your idea of a god…..unless you can produce your god you should HAVE KNOWLEDGE OF YOUR GOD…..NOT SOME DUUFESS THAT ALSO BELIEVES…..BELIEVING IS THE MOST DISRESPECTFUL THING YOU CAN DO TO A GOD….HAVE HOPE THERE IS ONE….UR WRIONG SO ALL THE PREP THE KIDS SEE THRU AND YOU BECOME JUST ANOTHER DUMB IDEA!~
I know some of the kids who went to Becky Fisher’s camp last summer. They are great kids. Please remember that film can be manipulated. Wouldn’t it be nice to see not only the whole film, but the whole 200 hours of cuts that didn’t make it into the finished product?
Alcari Says:
“Sometimes, I just feel the incredible urge to go to one of those meetings, and constantly ask “why?â€, “How?†and “But isn’t that…?â€
Most Christians hardly know what they “believe†and haven’t really thought about it either. Really, if you want to have a fun day AND piss of someone you probably won’t like, ask some who just came out of church why they believe.”
I know you said “most Christians”, but most Christians I know do know why they believe.
I for one am a born again Christian, and was once a Christian bashing atheist. I am not calling any atheist here a Christian basher, but I was. I took pleasure in ridiculing, and humiliating them. Mind you none them returned my cruelty. I was mean, self-centered, and egotistical.
I had no religious upbringing. My conversion came from years of philosophical debate, and thought. (There are some brilliant Christian philosophers, and apologists out there.) That and I do believe the Holly Spirit was working on my heart as well, even though I did not believe in nor knew anything about the Holly Spirit at the time.
It would take up to much time and space to debate the merits of Christianity here. For those of you with open minds who would like to listen to or read from some intelligent well-spoken Christians I recommend the following:
Greg Koukl: Has a call-in radio show/podcast. He loves to debate theology, and was once an atheist. http://www.str.org
Hank Hanegraaff, aka The Bible Answer Man: Bible and biblical history expert. Also has a call-in radio show/podcast, and was also once an atheist. http://www.equip.org
Alistair Begg: A brilliant Scottish preacher. You can listen to his sermons at http://www.truthforlife.com.
C.S. Lewis: One of the most famous atheists turned Christian. He wrote one of the best books on the Christian faith: *Mere Christianity*. This book will make anyone think, and helped change my view of Christians. Read this book and you will never again believe all Christians are unintelligent. Of course his friend JRR Tolkien (another brilliant Christian) helped bring C.S. Lewis to faith in Jesus.
Here is a simple but helpful prayer to help anyone on their quest for God: “God if you are there please show me. God please reveal your truth to me.â€
First of all, let me begin by saying that every Christian needs to read the Scriptures. It doesn’t matter what your age is or how much you think you know about Christianity. The Bible states in verse 11 of Acts 17, “These were more noble minded than those in Thessalonica for they received the Word with great eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see whether these things were so.”
Secondly, the Devil’s fall from was because of his Pride and attempted overthrow of God. He absolutely exists and uses fear, doubt, disbelief, pain, suffering and even joy in his war against God. Although I’d rather not quote a movie as a source, this line is relevant and true. “The greatest trick the Devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn’t exist.†(The Usual Suspects)
Lastly, even though I don’t agree with the incoherent ramblings of the vast majority of the posters here, I especially want to pose a question to the posters who allowed their children to go to this camp. What are the Pastors credentials? I went to the Jesus Camp website, the Christ Triumphant Church’s website, the F.I.R.E. Center’s website, as well as other various websites. Despite the overload of information available in this day and age, I couldn’t find the Seminary “Pastor†Becky Fischer went to. The Christ Triumphant Church’s accreditation from the Association of Theological Schools also eluded my search efforts.
In 2 Timothy 4:1-5 Paul summarizes the requirements of a faithful preacher: “I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by His appearing and His kingdom: preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort, with great patience and instruction. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires; and will turn away their ears from the truth, and will turn aside to myths. But you, be sober in all things, endure hardship, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry. ”
Have you ever read this? Since you sent your children to this camp, I am guessing not.
In Hosea chapter 4 we read this, “Listen to the Word of the Lord, O sons of Israel, for the Lord has a case against the inhabitants of the land because there is no faithfulness or kindness, or knowledge of God. They’re swearing, deception, murder, stealing and adultery.”
“First of all, let me begin by saying that every Christian needs to read the Scriptures. It doesn’t matter what your age is or how much you think you know about Christianity. The Bible states in verse 11 of Acts 17, “These were more noble minded than those in Thessalonica for they received the Word with great eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see whether these things were so.—
You say that age doesn’t matter. So why force you’re children to swallow this stuff young. Would it not be better to give them unbiased information to make their own decisions, and have them read more into it if they choose (when they are old enough to know what they’re doing).
“Secondly, the Devil’s fall from was because of his Pride and attempted overthrow of God. He absolutely exists and uses fear, doubt, disbelief, pain, suffering and even joy in his war against God. Although I’d rather not quote a movie as a source, this line is relevant and true. “The greatest trick the Devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn’t exist.†(The Usual Suspects)”
This is not an argument. You’ll find no one here is impressed by your because Jesus said so logic.
“Lastly, even though I don’t agree with the incoherent ramblings of the vast majority of the posters here, I especially want to pose a question to the posters who allowed their children to go to this camp.”
Name calling also is not a valid argument. You simply dismiss viewpoints you are unwilling to even think about examining as incoherant ramblings.
Your Father Says:
“You say that age doesn’t matter. So why force you’re children to swallow this stuff young. Would it not be better to give them unbiased information to make their own decisions, and have them read more into it if they choose (when they are old enough to know what they’re doing).”
Proverbs 22:6 states; “Train up a child in the way he should go, even when he is old he will not depart from it.”
Your Father Says:
“This is not an argument. You’ll find no one here is impressed by your because Jesus said so logic.”
If no one here is impressed by what Jesus said, then no one here is a Christian. In order to have a Christian discussion, one must believe the Bible is the final authority on every matter.
“If no one here is impressed by what Jesus said, then no one here is a Christian. In order to have a Christian discussion, one must believe the Bible is the final authority on every matter.”
A majority of the people on using this site are atheists/agnostics. (it’s called “religious freaks”…) You’re preaching beliefs for the sake of beliefs. There’s no objective criticism, no logic, and certainly no valid arguments.
Instead of just saying what to believe, argue why we should believe… Maybe why you believe and what makes sense about your beliefs.
As it seems now, you sound like one of these brainwashed children with no idea why you believe what you do.
Two Cool Guys:
1. C.S. Lewis
2. Garry Larson
Two Foolish Guys:
1. Jim Bakker
2. Michael Moore
Talented Guys Who Are Out to Lunch:
1. Mel Gibson
2. Tom Cruise
Your Father Says:
“Instead of just saying what to believe, argue why we should believe… Maybe why you believe and what makes sense about your beliefs.”
Fair enough, I’ll tell you why I believe.
Unfortunately, my family never pressured me into any particular way of thought in regards to religion. In fact, my family is one of the most non-Christian families I know. I came to believe in Jesus Christ on my own. No outside pressure from friends, family or society.
Like many of the posters here, I probably grew up more atheist than anything. I trusted science over God. I said if God created everything, who created God? I asked why does He allow pain, suffering and death? Well, three near death expericences later, I have found those answers. I have found those answers and the answers to every question ever posed. It is in a thick book called the Bible.
To address Jawska, yes God does care what two men do in the bedroom, he says it plain as day in Leviticus 18:22 “Do not have sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman; that is detestable.”
I believe in the Bible because it is an accurate account of the Creation, Jesus’ life, and the end times. Being a Christian has made me healthier, happier, smarter, richer and prepared for eternal life in paradise. The question is, Where do you want to go?
“Like many of the posters here, I probably grew up more atheist than anything. I trusted science over God. I said if God created everything, who created God? I asked why does He allow pain, suffering and death? Well, three near death expericences later, I have found those answers. I have found those answers and the answers to every question ever posed. It is in a thick book called the Bible.”
I just don’t get it. Now, I’m not calling you a liar, but I’m not exactly convinced about what you’re saying. Was it that three near death experiences caused you to become so frightened about death that you couldn’t live with the logical belief you held before hand?
“Like many of the posters here, I probably grew up more atheist than anything. I trusted science over God. I said if God created everything, who created God? I asked why does He allow pain, suffering and death? Well, three near death expericences later, I have found those answers. I have found those answers and the answers to every question ever posed. It is in a thick book called the Bible.”
There are many books out there that give “answers” like the bible. Why don’t you believe in the greek pantheon of gods, or budhism, or fly spaghetti monsterism? All three are equally valid, and would relieve your fear of death.
“I believe in the Bible because it is an accurate account of the Creation, Jesus’ life, and the end times. Being a Christian has made me healthier, happier, smarter, richer and prepared for eternal life in paradise. The question is, Where do you want to go?”
Why do you think it’s more accurate than the others? What makes it so special? There’s no actual evidence that Jesus even existed, and the existence of the bible doesn’t count. All other religions and cults have similar scripts and they are mutually exclusive.
As far as making you healthier, and all that jazz, could it not just be a placebo effect compounded with the bliss of believing in a fairy tale. I’m sure I’d be happier if I still believed in santa. The question is, do you want to face reality?
Man of God:
You said:
‘To address Jawska, yes God does care what two men do in the bedroom, he says it plain as day in Leviticus 18:22 “Do not have sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman; that is detestable.‒
But doesn’t Leviticus give explicit instructions regarding a lot of things that most Christians do not follow? Do you do any of these things:
1) Refuse to eat pork?
2) Follow the guidelines for ritual sacrifice (including humans)?
3) Put to death adulterers and children who curse their parents (Leviticus 20:9-10)?
4) Prohibit the handicap from approaching an alter? (Leviticus 21:16-23)
I could go on and on. Leviticus is full of strange laws that no Christian I know follows. But for some reason they latch on to the rather small mention of homosexuality.
If you don’t do these things, why should we take the prohibition against male homosexuality seriously? Why is it that Christians get to pick and choose the passages that they follow?
Everything in the Bible must be taken in context. Both Christians and non-Christians throw out verses, sometimes carelessly, in order to make their particular point.
In Leviticus, God speaks to the Israelite people about how to live, mostly to preserve their existence. There are many dietary laws and rituals that are given to the people in order to preserve the nation of Israel. It goes without saying that many of the Levitical laws do not apply to us today.
God is clear in Leviticus that homosexuality is detestable in His sight. So, the questions are: Does God feel the same way today as He did then? Does God even change? Do New Testament writings support the same view about homosexuality? How is God’s command about eating pork different from His command about two men having sex with each other?
Or maybe the Bible isn’t the word of God and was written by humans. Maybe the Bible simply reflects the cultural biases of its myriad of non-contemporary authors who wouldn’t agree with each other what truth is, be it moral truth or metaphysical truth. Maybe each generation has interpreted the same passages differently to reflect new cultural biases. Maybe we should put the books contained within into historical context and then decide if any parts of it (despite centuries of compiling, editing, revising, and translating) apply to anything we experience in the modern world. In short, maybe we shouldn’t rely on the Bible as a source of truth at all and definitely as a reason to restrict the rights of others.
FanOfCSLewis,
You said:
“God is clear in Leviticus that homosexuality is detestable in His sight. So, the questions are: Does God feel the same way today as He did then? Does God even change? Do New Testament writings support the same view about homosexuality? How is God’s command about eating pork different from His command about two men having sex with each other?”
One could easily interpret the prohibition against male homosexuality as being similar in nature to the prohibition against eating pork. It was likely more of a public health issue than anything else. Anal sex is known for spreading disease (without a condom) more so than other forms of sex.
Note that nothing is said about women and homosexuality. This suggests to me that it isn’t necessarily homosexuality that is the problem, but anal intercourse in particular.
You Father Says:
“I just don’t get it. Now, I’m not calling you a liar, but I’m not exactly convinced about what you’re saying. Was it that three near death experiences caused you to become so frightened about death that you couldn’t live with the logical belief you held before hand?â€
It was not with a fear of death that I found Jesus. It was looking back on my experiences that I realized He was looking out for me. I am not afraid of death, quite the opposite actually. I look forward to living and worshipping with Jesus in paradise, however, do not confuse that with a wish to die. I enjoy my life on Earth with my friends and family. I even enjoy living with atheists, agnostics, Buddhists, Muslims, Jews and all other non-believers, for this life is the only one we will have together. Matthew 25:46 says “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”
Your Father Says:
“Why do you think it’s more accurate than the others? What makes it so special? There’s no actual evidence that Jesus even existed, and the existence of the bible doesn’t count. All other religions and cults have similar scripts and they are mutually exclusive.â€
Psalm 14:1 states “The fool [a] says in his heart, ‘There is no God.’ They are corrupt, their deeds are vile; there is no one who does good.†Even your fellow atheist and Darwin follower Prof. Richard Dawkins, states: “We have seen that living things are too improbable and too beautifully ‘designed’ to have come into existence by chance.â€
The following excerpt is from A Muslim Looks at Muhammad and Jesus: The story of Abdul Saleeb and what he discovered about Islam and Christianity. “But for me the most impressive factor about Christ was the multitude of Old Testament prophecies about the coming of the Messiah. Some of these prophecies were so specific and they were fulfilled in the life of Jesus to such a detail that it amazed me to see how God had taken hundreds of years of Jewish history to prepare the coming of the Messiah; prophecies ranging from Messiah’s ancestry, his manner and place of birth, his life and ministry to the circumstances surrounding his death by crucifixion. I was very attracted to Christ and yet I could not deny my own tradition and past. Becoming Christian seemed a definite betrayal of my own family and Islamic heritage. The tension in my life was so strong that I felt torn asunder between these two faiths.†There are approximately 332 Old Testament prophecies that Jesus fulfilled.
Your Father Says:
“As far as making you healthier, and all that jazz, could it not just be a placebo effect compounded with the bliss of believing in a fairy tale. I’m sure I’d be happier if I still believed in Santa. The question is, do you want to face reality?â€
Jesus answered them, “It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. Luke 5:31
Sidfaiwu Says:
“In short, maybe we shouldn’t rely on the Bible as a source of truth at all and definitely as a reason to restrict the rights of others.â€
Have you made up your mind about the gospel? Are you like Ahaz who told Isaiah, “I have made up my mind. Don’t disturb me. Don’t tell me facts”? I have spoken to some people about the gospel, but they have made up their minds, and they ask me not to disturb them. They do not want to listen to me. But when God sends someone to speak to us, he is demonstrating his love for us. In spite of our problems, difficulties, wickedness, and unbelief, God loves us enough to send someone to us. And what does he say? “Be careful. Be calm. Don’t be afraid. Everything will be all right. I will help you. You will stand by faith and trust in the sovereign Lord, rather than in this little Assyrian power.” By P. G. Mathew, M.A., M.Div., Th.M.
Matthew,
You raise a good point. I would like to investigate that further by looking at other Scriptures that deal with the subject. Could you or someone else supply me with some evidence in the Bible that sodomy is OK?
By the way, I do believe that God forgives all sinners, including sodomites, adulterers, tax cheats, liars, drunkards, child molesters, and even murderers.
FanofCSLewis,
You said:
“You raise a good point. I would like to investigate that further by looking at other Scriptures that deal with the subject. Could you or someone else supply me with some evidence in the Bible that sodomy is OK?”
I don’t think the Bible says the sodomy is “OK.” It ranks it along side of eating pork. It is unclean.
I do, however, think the Bible says that homosexuality is OK. Or at least it makes no prohibition against it. The Bible does not say that men should not have sexual relations. It says that a man should not lay down with another man as he would with a woman (no penetration).
Note that not all homosexual men engage in sodomy
Man of God Says:
“It was not with a fear of death that I found Jesus. It was looking back on my experiences that I realized He was looking out for me. I am not afraid of death, quite the opposite actually. I look forward to living and worshipping with Jesus in paradise, however, do not confuse that with a wish to die.”
Ok, I did not imply that you ARE afraid of death, I implied that you WERE afraid of death, before you decided to believe in a fairy tale to help you sleep at night, and I certainly never implied that you wanted to die. The only thing looking out for you was chance. For every time you didn’t die, millions of people suffered and died horrible deaths. Where was Jesus to save them? (a rhetoric question… I don’t really want more scriptures and optimistic interpretations thrown at me)
Man of God said:
“… There are approximately 332 Old Testament prophecies that Jesus fulfilled.”
When I said mutually exclusive, I meant to stuff that wasn’t in a book you already believe in. I can make up a book, and have another book fulfill it’s prophecies too! You proove nothing… There’s billions of people that don’t believe in either of your books. What makes christianity any more believable than the greek pantheon, I’m fairly sure they didn’t mention Jesus (but who knows, I’m sure you can find a lovely interpretation if you try hard enough). If you were born in that era, you’d eat up that crap instead, because it was the social norm.
“Jesus answered them, “It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. Luke 5:31″
Did I say you needed a doctor? Are you even talking to me? wtf are you talking about?
Hello Man of God,
Thanks for the offer of an explanation of the Gospels. I have already read John and did not find much in the way of truth in that book. I also know that John is the most supernatural account of the four Gospels (there were more than four, but they didn’t survive popular consent in the 2nd and 3rd centuries) and the one that most ardently supports the claim that Jesus was a deity. So I guess you can say that I have made up my mind. If you do have some facts that support the validity of elements in the Gospels I’d be glad to take them into consideration, but there is much that they would have to overcome.
Man of God said:
“Like many of the posters here, I probably grew up more atheist than anything.”
Actually I grew up as a devout Christian. I actively told all my non-christian friends that they were wrong and needed to accept Christ or they would suffer in the afterlife. I constantly wondered why all these people in the world just couldn’t see that they were wrong. I believed that the gospels were correct. Unfortunately I also believed that dinosaurs existed 65 million years before humans made the scene. I believed that the universe was quantumly banged into existence 14 Billion years ago, and that no human alive for thousands of generations from now would ever even see the sun blink out. I believed all this together with no conflicts. I took the creation and the apocolypse as just stories. Even in the bible no one was mentioned writing anything for quite a long time after the creation, so I thought “How could anyone actually know? They just wrote a very nice story that was doing justice to god.” The end of the world? Prophecies don’t always come true. I thought Revelations to be a warning of what would happen if the world became to evil. It could be averted, it wasn’t the end. I never really talked about this with too many people, but neither my mother and our priest at the time thought there was not a problem with me believing these things and still being a christian. I had accepted Jesus, the rest of the bible be damned, I was right with the correct parts. Then an arch-bishop visited our church to speak with people. He was especially interested in what the children’s beliefs were. When he got to me he was down right outraged. How could I not take it all literally. I told him that the science was there, was tested time and again and still held up. I told him that regardless of what I thought of the begining of time, I was still a good Christian. He would hear none of it and gave me a choice. Science or god. I couldn’t have both, I had to choose. He left it for me to decide. I went to church for only a few more times before I made the decision. After reading the bible a bit further, I decided not to give up the real world for a fairy tale. That’s where I’m coming from.
Man of God said:
“To address Jawska, yes God does care what two men do in the bedroom, he says it plain as day in Leviticus 18:22 “Do not have sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman; that is detestable.—
I know its been stated a few other times that leviticus has some odd laws that no christians follow, which is then countered by the Christians that “being gay is universily considered an abomination”. But hey look at this. If we’re going to use the abomination to you and god bit as the decider then every christian I know is doomed.
Leviticus 11:9-12 These shall ye eat of all that are in the waters: whatsoever hath fins and scales in the waters, in the seas, and in the rivers, them shall ye eat. And all that have not fins and scales in the seas, and in the rivers, of all that move in the waters, and of any living thing which is in the waters, they shall be an abomination unto you: They shall be even an abomination unto you; ye shall not eat of their flesh, but ye shall have their carcases in abomination. Whatsoever hath no fins nor scales in the waters, that shall be an ABOMINATION unto you.
Shrimp, crab, lobster, clams, mussels, all these are an abomination before the Lord, just as gays are an abomination. Kinda makes you think doesn’t it, while you’re eating Multigrain bread that was grown in the same field, tilled by a mule, wearing your half-cotton, half-wool blend shirt.
Man of God said:
“… There are approximately 332 Old Testament prophecies that Jesus fulfilled.â€
You’d be surprised how many people fufilled those in those days (and how many things the gospels said Jesus fulfilled that were mentioned nowhere else but the gospels). Quite a few virgin births that resulted in men healing the sick, feeding the hungry and performing miracles. Come to think of it, there’s no record anywhere that says my mother’s husband is infact my father. Hey, I might be a virgin birth too! Though after that recent preist, I don’t think I need to try walking on water.
(Hi this is my first post here *waves*) I grew up as a Southern Baptist and like Humanistic Jones says I was very evangelical and lost several friends through things like. Sorry to get off the subject that you guys are on, but on the subject of Bible camp, I had to go to church camp for years. Actually I enjoyed it and wanted to go, I de-converted and then this summer I attended Falls Creek Youth camp and boy was I shocked out how different it all seemed, it seemed like a huge brainwashing/money-making scheme to me. So I really can’t see this documentary as being to far from the truth.
Now back to the subject at hand I believe someone mentioned the morality of homosexuality. How many admonishments do most christians say there are towards homosexuality in the bible, well I don’t know the exact number. However, I do know that there are far more towards heterosexuals. Could this not mean that “god” only thinks that heterosexuals need to be watched more because they are apt to get into more trouble?
Anyway, just my thought on the subject, they are sure to be biased as they are coming from a bisexual teen, but whatever.
Your Father Says:
“I can make up a book, and have another book fulfill it’s prophecies too! You proove nothing… “
Jewish historian Flavius Josephus, a member of a priestly family and who became a Pharisee at the age of 19, became the court historian for Emperor Vespasian. In the Antiquities, he wrote about many persons and events of first century Palestine. He makes two references to Jesus. The first reference is believed associated with the Apostle James. “…he brother of Jesus, who was called Christ.” He also wrote, “At this time there was a wise man who was called Jesus. And his conduct was good and (he) was known to be virtuous. And many people from among the Jews and other nations became his disciples. Pilate condemned him to be crucified and to die. And those who had become his disciples did not abandon his discipleship. They reported that he had appeared to them three days after his crucifixion and that he was alive, accordingly, he was perhaps the messiah concerning whom the prophets have recounted wonders.” These historical writings predated the Old Testament. Josephus died in 97 A.D.
Before Tacitus, Suetonius or Josephus, Thallus wrote about the crucifixion of Jesus. His writing date to circa 52 A.D. and the passage on Jesus was contained in Thallus’ work on the Eastern Mediterranean world from the Trojan War to 52 A.D. Thallus noted that darkness fell on the land at the time of the crucifixion. He wrote that such a phenomenon was caused by an eclipse. Though Christ was not proclaimed a deity until the fourth century, Pliny the Younger, a Roman author and administrator who served as the governor of Bithynia in Asia Minor, wrote in 112 A.D., two hundred years before the “deity” proclamation, that Christians in Bithynia worshipped Christ.
So, according to factual, historical information that was written well before the New Testament, a man named Jesus Christ actually lived and was actually crucified. Documentation of Christ’s life and death that would suggest the New Testament was not a fictional work, but a more detailed account of the Redeemer.
Your Father Says:
Did I say you needed a doctor? Are you even talking to me? wtf are you talking about?
Maybe the rest of the verse will bring the full meaning into plain view for you….”It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.” Luke 5:31
Humanistic Jones Says:
Since Leviticus is being scrutinized so much and arguing about context of the message will only lead to further disagreement, maybe another passage will help clarify God’s standards.
1 Corinthians 6:9-10 states, “Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.â€
Humanistic Jones Says:
Man of God said:
‘… There are approximately 332 Old Testament prophecies that Jesus fulfilled.’
“You’d be surprised how many people fufilled those in those days (and how many things the gospels said Jesus fulfilled that were mentioned nowhere else but the gospels). Quite a few virgin births that resulted in men healing the sick, feeding the hungry and performing miracles. Come to think of it, there’s no record anywhere that says my mother’s husband is infact my father. Hey, I might be a virgin birth too! Though after that recent preist, I don’t think I need to try walking on water. “
Listing all 332 prophecies will take too much time and space. I am not arguing the ambiguousness of some of them (i.e. Meek and humble, Isaiah 42:12 and tender and compassionate, Isaiah 40:11), however, there are some that only the Messiah could and would fulfill. Since it seems the average non-believer, or gentile as the bible calls them, will only entertain what they consider to be factual or historical, non-Scripture based material; I offer the following prophecyâ€
Jesus would be executed by crucifixion:
Isaiah 53:12 says:
“Therefore I will give him a portion among the great, and he will divide the spoils with the strong, because he poured out his life unto death, and was numbered with the transgressors. For he bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.â€
And as historical accounts have proven, a man named Jesus was crucified and buried. The following probabilities are taken from Peter Stoner in Science Speaks (Moody Press, 1963) to show that coincidence is ruled out by the science of probability. Stoner says that by using the modern science of probability in reference to eight prophecies, ‘we find that the chance that any man might have lived down to the present time and fulfilled all eight prophecies is 1 in 1017.” That would be 1 in 100,000,000,000,000,000. In order to help us comprehend this staggering probability, Stoner illustrates it by supposing that “we take 1017 silver dollars and lay them on the face of Texas. They will cover all of the state two feet deep.
“Now mark one of these silver dollars and stir the whole mass thoroughly, all over the state. Blindfold a man and tell him that he can travel as far as he wishes, but he must pick up one silver dollar and say that this is the right one. What chance would he have of getting the right one? Just the same chance that the prophets would have had of writing these eight prophecies and having them all come true in any one man.”
I will send my son to the devil’s camo to learn that there is no GOD ,you should understand people that there is no GOD.
Man of God said:
“Jewish historian Flavius Josephus, a member of a priestly family and who became a Pharisee at the age of 19, became the court historian for Emperor Vespasian. In the Antiquities, he wrote about many persons and events of first century Palestine…”
I can’t believe I read that whole thing. You just don’t get it. I’m not arguing that. You can’t justify stories with stories, plain and simple.
Have you ever played the telephone game? If not I’ll explain it. It is where people tell a phrase or story to each other privately, in a circle, and by the time it gets back to the person who started it, the phrase is often completely different.
This is especially important when it comes to ancient beliefs. People tend to believe what they want to believe, and will not hesitate to embellish where necessary. People also want to be able to explain things about the world are them. 2000 years ago, people had no other way to explain things, other than these stories.
Obviously you’ve studies a lot to try and justify your beliefs, most likely because they comfort you (everyone has their own reason, this is the most common). Do you really think you’ve studied the topic objectively? I don’t. You dig and dig for validation, and ignore mountains of inconsistencies and poor logic.
I’m not going to argue about the existence of a creator. That is a complicated and not so easily ignored topic, but these stories about angels and the devil and a half man half god with super powers are crazy, and no one believes them unless they really really want to (unfortunately there’s a surplus of these people).
“And as historical accounts have proven, a man named Jesus was crucified and buried. The following probabilities are taken from Peter Stoner in Science Speaks (Moody Press, 1963) to show that coincidence is ruled out by the science of probability.”
Once again, these ancient historical account HAVE NOT proven anything. They are stories, maybe BASED ON true events and maybe not. There is no way to prove it without a time machine, because no current actual scientific or forensic methods can prove them. I’m not sure who that man was, but I’m sure he’s not a scientist in the truest sense of the word. Calling probabilities about stories science is not the action of a true scientist.
My point is, the probability is based on the assumption that all of the information about both the prophecies and Jesus are %100 true, and this CAN NOT be proven.
Man, this trailer gave me the CREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEPS.
Religion is going to determine who gets into the white house now..
Now we’re all fucked.
Howdy! I found your site (and this post) today, and am disappointed to learn that the video is no longer available on YouTube, at least the version/instance you’ve linked to/embedded. It sounds like it contains/contained footage that wasn’t in the trailer I’ve seen, and I’m very interested in seeing it (both the trailer and the movie).
Some of the quotes from commenters here are definitely not in video/materials I’ve been able to find elsewhere. Is there a chance I could convince you/someone else here to find this version of the trailer again and repost it? (Thanks in advance!)
Based on the reviews I’ve read, it appears to raise a number of issues for viewers, ranging from child abuse to dominionism to “media persecution of Christians.” I’m going to have to see it before I make a judgement/evaluation, but it certainly appears to give its subjects enough “rope” to “hang themselves.”
I’ve read that Ms. Fisher (the camp’s director) felt that the movie would be a good evangelism tool which seems to be directly contrary to the impressions of those who have seen it and haven’t already drank deeply of the “Deeper Christian Kool-Aid Well.”
Personally, I find it shocking to hear a twelve-year-old say that he accepted Jesus as his Personal Savior when he was five because he “wanted more of life.” How disappointed with life can one truly be at five years old? How much of life have you actually seen by five years of age? It surely sounds like he’s been spoonfed doctrine and vocabulary, and has essentially been brainwashed.
I understand and empathize with BLaZeMoNgEr’s sentiment, but I don’t think it’s time to give up hope and stop working to raise awareness of the evils of Dominionism and Christian Reconstructionism. Now is not the time to throw in the towel.
Now is the time to stand up and work towards returning America to the original intent of the Founding Fathers… Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness for ALL, irrespective of religious creed, racial origin, or socioeconomic status.
One of the things i find extremely disturbing is when , missionarys go to places where poverty is high and convince people to convert. Tell me who wouldn’t convert for abit of food?
Rev. Dan said:
Now is the time to stand up and work towards returning America to the original intent of the Founding Fathers… Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness for ALL, irrespective of religious creed, racial origin, or socioeconomic status.
Huzzah to that. If we can make this counrty the secular nation it once was, where people aren’t afraid that their religion might lose members and thus cause them to lose power (this of course would be because NOONE’S religion is in charge). If we can get back to the days where people are free to worship as they please because they do it in their church pulpits and not at the science class blackboard and the senate floor. If we can return to a time where people were judged as patriots because they questioned half-thought policies and percieved injustices not because they quietly went along with everything their leader told them to. If we can get back to that, I could care less how many people are Christian, Jewish, Muslim, or what ever.
Most of my ire with organized religion comes from the harm that they do to the public with evangelism. I can’t force a friend to not eat bacon and eggs every meal every day anymore than I can convince Jerry Falwell that homosexuals are not sinful creatures. Its their personal beliefs on what is right and good. But if either tries to force me to do it or believe it because its what he feels is right, the line is drawn. Don’t like something? Change the channel, move away from it, don’t let it in your home, and don’t go looking for it. Its easier to control your own life than to expunge something you don’t like from the culture. Same goes for me. I get pretty ired by religion, but I wouldn’t dare to think that I could forbid people from being Christian because my beliefs tell me that its stupid and causes nothing but trouble. I just choose not to church, let missionaries in my house, keep a bible on the bookshelf, or watch the Christian Channels onto my TV. Its part of my persuit of happiness. I’m happy without god in my home and I pursue it.
And if you wonder, if anyone tried to outlaw any part of Christianity, I would stand up on the soapbox in christianity’s defense. That still doesn’t mean that I approve of a nativity scene at my public school (the methodist church down the road does a better one anyway) or Ten Commandments in my courtrooms (that Catholic Cathedral I went to once in Macon had a much more awesome looking representation of them anyway, much more befiting of your gods laws). I have to use and pay for public facilities, so no religion there. Your church’s property, that’s your business not mine. If they say you can’t have your stuff displayed there, I’ll protest with you.
Heh, I think my rant purge valve kinda went off there…
Rant away, Humanistic Jones. You speak for a lot of us in that post. We feel your frustration.
You liberals are good at crucifying People, Should I name a few, how about Jesus, how about George Bush? I think Becky Fischer is in good company!!
I spent the time to read this whole thread….
Humanistic Jones really hit it on the head!!!!!
Extremism can create real problems… Just pick up a newspaper or switch on CNN…. I have recently lost a very good friend to this sort of thing…. Severed in the Marines in the first Gulf war with him…
One Religion = Tyranny
Two Religions = Civil War
Many Religions = Peace
I used to consider myself conservative… I guess I still am in some respects… Don’t touch my guns….and make people responsible for their actions… However…This bullshit that I am going to be placed in a lake of fire forever….. (Yea Forever)… for not believing…. come on…. I simply in my greatest imagination can’t imagine a god like that… I love my family more than my life. I have gone to war for this country. I respect the Golden Rule….
I am a good person…Ah but not in gods eyes …I am a miserable sinner worthy of the worst imaginable punishment if I don’t number myself with those people in this new piece of celluloid. Sorry…Count me out!!!!
My advice … always question…. Ask the whys and the how comes, and the what if’s… It’s this all or nothing attitude…
Religion is about control.
What you think the literacy rate was 4k 2k 1k 500, 200 years ago… Things are not as they are today…
When you can’t read or write and all you care about is where your next meal is coming from and if you’re going to survive through the winter…. I am guessing you would believe just about anything…….
Okay, I have read this entire post (to be fair enough and actually try to give an ear to all being said). Personally, I have a problem with a lot of things being said here. I will attempt to address some of them. I will attempt to do so in a loving manner – not because that was how I was raised or because I believe anyone deserves this, but because it is what my Savior taught.
First of all, if there is a fifteen year-old person who has figured out Christianity to the point that they don’t need to read Scripture or study it any more, they need to contact someone. There’s a lot of money to be made AND a lot of people to be helped by this incredibly insightful person. Most of them are over 30.
Second, let’s not confuse “religion” with “faith”. I have faith, given to me by God as a gift. I (sort of) belong to a religion, created by men to satisfy their needs to relate to God. God did not set out to create the Catholic church, nor any of the Protestant denominations – He set out to create us for relationship with Himself and each other.
Third, as to the “science or God” debate – it is stupid. Every day there are more and more scientific discoveries that lead us (those who don’t filter our scientific input to automatically exclude anything that disrupts a firm belief in naturalism/humanism/anti-religionism) to a greater wonder and marveling at how God created this universe. And there is REAL SCIENTIFIC evidence that proves that there WAS a man named Jesus of Nazareth (Christ was a designation, not his name) and that his life was pretty much as described in the Gospels (there were only 4 canonized, because they were contemporary – many of the other “gospels” were written by people whose grandparents were children when Jesus died). There is no argument, by those of us who are paying attention to the archaeological finds and evidence (archaeology is still a science, is it not?), that Jesus lived and that he lived and died pretty much where and when the Gospels say he did. Which then brings to mind the big question – IF he was just a man (btw, he was WHOLLY man AND WHOLLY God, not halvesies) and didn’t rise from the dead, why didn’t the Jews, who had the most to lose, present his body as evidence that he was dead and stayed dead? Or the Romans, who had slightly less at stake than the Jews?
As for the Bible not being reliable (since it is being called a self-contained “authority”), it has been scrutinized, criticized, researched, cross-referenced and tested in every way every other ACCEPTED historical document has been test – 5 TIMES OVER (that’s a direct quote from Greg Boyd, an apologist with his rep on the line) and it is more reliable in it’s historical accuracy than any other commonly accepted historical writing or documentation. If you refuse to believe the Bible because you don’t think it’s reliable enough, then start throwing out all of your books on Civil War history – ANYTHING you have to support a (mistaken) belief that this country was EVER a secular country.
For the separation-of-church-and-state crowd: this country was founded by Christians, on Christian beliefs and principles. Each of the founding fathers, even Thomas Jefferson who the anti-Christians love to parade about, stated at one point or another – in writing – that without religion (specifically Christianity) this country had no hope. The mention of separation of church and state was not to keep God out of our government, it was to keep the government out of the pulpit. I believe the first amendment reads guarantees us freedom OF religion, not freedom FROM it.
Finally, I would love to go through each entry and note the things that are inaccurate, due to ignorance or just plain hateful. But I’ll leave with this – anyone who thinks they don’t “believe” in a god or a religious system needs to take a REAL close look at what they DO believe in – if it’s Darwinistic evolution, that’s a bigger myth than the Spaghetti Monster. At least Darwin admitted that there IS a creator and his intent was to find where God stopped and nature took over – never was it his intent to prove there is no God.
P.S. Maybe the Greek pantheon is the way. Or Buddhism. Or Giant Spaghetti Monster. Or the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. You see, offering some silly story created out of fear (Greek gods), or a wise man (Buddha), or malice (Giant Spaghetti Monster) does NOT refute Christianity. It simply tells me that you don’t like my answer but you don’t have a viable alternative. So, don’t try to buffalo a (former) buffalo artist. I, too, grew up WAY outside the church.
“First of all, if there is a fifteen year-old person who has figured out Christianity to the point that they don’t need to read Scripture or study it any more, they need to contact someone. There’s a lot of money to be made…”
I think the religions of the world pretty much have this making money thing down tight.
“God did not set out to create the Catholic church, nor any of the Protestant denominations – He set out to create us for relationship with Himself and each other.”
Agreement, total agreement. I will not (and never would) nit pick you on this. The worst thing man kind ever did was to take a good idea and make a religion out of it.
“Every day there are more and more scientific discoveries that lead us (those who don’t filter our scientific input to automatically exclude anything that disrupts a firm belief in naturalism/humanism/anti-religionism) to a greater wonder and marveling at how God created this universe.”
This isn’t that whole grand canyon argument again is it? The problem is that there ISN’T more and more evidence everyday pointing towards ID. Scientist just recently found a fish with pre-legs (http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2006/04/0405_060405_fish.html) and a bacteria with one of the most complex genomes ever (http://biology.plosjournals.org/perlserv/?request=get-document&doi=10.1371/journal.pbio.0040286). Scientist don’t just filter out science because it might hurt the existing theory. In fact when a blip hits on the scientific radar that screams “CONTRADICTION TO HYPOTHESIS!”, it’s watched, tested, retested and reviewed until they can either confirm it as a true false-reading or an actual chink in the theory. Science is about changes, it starts with an observation, moves to hypothesis, testing, theorizing, and debate. Religion (and Intelligent Design) starts with a preformed conclusion and picks only the data that supports it.
“And there is REAL SCIENTIFIC evidence that proves that there WAS a man named Jesus of Nazareth”
“As for the Bible not being reliable (since it is being called a self-contained “authorityâ€), it has been scrutinized, criticized, researched, cross-referenced and tested in every way every other ACCEPTED historical document has been test – 5 TIMES OVER (that’s a direct quote from Greg Boyd, an apologist with his rep on the line) and it is more reliable in it’s historical accuracy than any other commonly accepted historical writing or documentation.”
With very little actual evidence from prominent Jewish historians at the time to support this. Josephus Flavius, the Jewish historian, lived as the earliest non-Christian who mentions a Jesus. Although many scholars think that Josephus’ short accounts of Jesus (in Antiquities) came from interpolations perpetrated by a later Church father (most likely, Eusebius), Josephus’ birth in 37 C.E., well after the alleged crucifixion of Jesus, puts him out of range of an eyewitness account. Moreover, he wrote Antiquities in 93 C.E., after the first gospels got written. Therefore, even if his accounts about Jesus came from his hand, his information could only serve as hearsay. The consensus of many biblical historians put the dating of the earliest Gospel, that of Mark, at sometime after 70 C.E. Also as a final note of interest on historical integrity to the gospels, the birth of Jesus happened during the reign of Herod and during the census called by Quirinius (see Matthew 2:1 and Luke 2:1). However, Herod died in the year 4 B.C.E. and Quirinius did not come to power until the year 6 C.E. Unless Mary was in labor for 10 years, these event couldn’t happen at the same time.
“IF he was just a man (sic) and didn’t rise from the dead, why didn’t the Jews, who had the most to lose, present his body as evidence that he was dead and stayed dead? Or the Romans, who had slightly less at stake than the Jews?”
Ocham’s Razor, the easiest explanation is that there was no body to present much a I cannot show you the grave and body of Merlin, Gandalf the White, or Hercules.
“For the separation-of-church-and-state crowd: this country was founded by Christians, on Christian beliefs and principles.”
False interpretation of the history. Many of the founding fathers were of Christian faith, but that does not mean that the country itself was founded on the ideals of Christianity. They had just finished dealing with England and were looking to divorce themselves from all of the trappings of the monoarchic government they had come from. One such thing was the state instituted religion of Christianity.
“The mention of separation of church and state was not to keep God out of our government, it was to keep the government out of the pulpit. I believe the first amendment reads guarantees us freedom OF religion, not freedom FROM it.”
Ignore history, doomed to repeat it. You seem to forget that early Christian settlers to the colonies left because of religious persecution. Persecution not at the hands of Jew, Muslims, Atheists, Liberal Secular Revisionists, etc. but at the hands of Christian organizations with more money and more members. The separation of church and state was created to protect the tiny weak upstart denominations like the Calvinists, the Wesleyians, and the Quakers, and all other lesser represented religious groups at the time from persecution at the hands of the Monolithic politico-economic power houses like the Anglican and Catholic church. You want separation of church and state gone? Fine, look ahead a few years after Christianity is declared America’s state religion, after you’ve cleaned out all the non-believers, then someone from another denomination has the audacity to disagree with you on a religious issue, then they have the smarts to get their members in majority in the government. Guess what happens next… you’re people just aren’t christian enough and are declared heritics and enemies of the state. Welcome to 17th century England all over again! Hope you’re happy with that.
“I believe the first amendment reads guarantees us freedom OF religion, not freedom FROM it.”
The certainly you must acknowledge that some of our beliefs involve not having to believe in a god and not wanting to have it printed on our money, and taught in our schools. Freedom FROM public religion is the only true guarantee of Freedom OF religion.
“At least Darwin admitted that there IS a creator and his intent was to find where God stopped and nature took over – never was it his intent to prove there is no God.”
No scientist is trying to say there is no God. We just have to fight all the people that say there is a God that necessitates us ignoring the observed scientific fact in the universe.
“You see, offering some silly story created out of fear (Greek gods), or a wise man (Buddha), or malice (Giant Spaghetti Monster) does NOT refute Christianity.”
And offering up a hero worship story half stollen from Jewish myth and half concocted from the classical over-man style heros of old(Christianity) does not refute Deism, Atheism, Agnostisim, and so forth. None of us have proof, choosing a religion is like rolling a D20, sometimes you’ll get a natural 20, sometimes its a 1, you just can’t be sure till its finished rolling and then its too late to go back and change it. Just focus on living a good life and helping other people and stop thinking that what happens when your soul cancels its lease on your meatshell is more important to you than the time you have now.
And I see one of the videos is back. We still need to find the one where that woman decided to open up on Harry Potter and the one girl declared she didn’t listen to Britney Spears and Justin Timberlake because “they just sing about girls and boys and I don’t believe in that.” The original was just absurd, this one however, is deadly frightneing. Look at those kids in the combat fatigues and the camo face paint doing rifle drills and singing about Revalations. Look a the boy claiming his generation is the key to the return of Jesus, see the man asking the children who is ready to “Give their lives for Jesus”, listen to the girl shouting “END THE WORLD!” We have a generation of children raised in a christianity that is degrading into a paramilitary apocalypse cult.
I cried the first time I saw this. Yes a heartless, misanthropic Deist was appaled to tears. Because these are the people my younger cousins have to grow up with. This is the world my children will have to face. This is a group of children that should be wide eyed and full of wonder at the awesomeness of our massive universe and the mysteries that science is uncovering every day. Instead they’re hardened and disolusioned with the world and can’t wait till it ends. This is sickening and horrifying.
[...] That’s pretty heavy duty considering I was just popping zits and scratching my @ss at that age. Nonetheless, it appears to be quite intriguing. But watch the trailer and then the Jesus Camp one. The first thing I noticed immediately is that these supposedly socially defunct kids that have a one-way ticket to hell come across a helluva lot more normal than the Jesus freaks do. Take a look and decide for yourself. [...]
“But I’ll leave with this – anyone who thinks they don’t “believe†in a god or a religious system needs to take a REAL close look at what they DO believe in – if it’s Darwinistic evolution, that’s a bigger myth than the Spaghetti Monster.”
How is it a myth? You can’t just throw an accusation out there and not explain yourself. Evolutionary theory makes perfect sense in the natural world, regardless of religious beliefs. I’d rather believe something proven to be 99% (and growing) accurate, then some pseudo-historical hearsay, which can’t be proven without a time machine.
“At least Darwin admitted that there IS a creator and his intent was to find where God stopped and nature took over – never was it his intent to prove there is no God.”
I don’t worship darwin. I simply agree with the science he introduced as it stands today. I don’t care what his personal standpoints on religion were, I just care what current science tells me.
“If you refuse to believe the Bible because you don’t think it’s reliable enough, then start throwing out all of your books on Civil War history – ANYTHING you have to support a (mistaken) belief that this country was EVER a secular country.”
I refuse to believe the bible, because it’s nonsense, but it’s lack of reliability sure doesn’t help your cause.
As for the secular remark…. you must live in the south or something. I grew up around sensible people in a sensible secular public school system in the north. God was never mentioned in a classroom from any particular standpoints on religion.
Public schools are a service for the public, which includes people of all belief systems. Since it’s impossible (not to mention a waste of time) teaching all religions/cults/belief systems in public schools, the only logical standpoint is that they should teach none. It’s just that simple. You can’t brainwash strangers children the way you do your own. This country is a melting pot, not a christian theocracy.
I’m actually scared that the christian fundamentalists are going to forcefully impose their religious beliefs across america, and then the globe. There is already a very well funded (guess who by) university over in the US that specifically trains students in proselytising, and in changing the laws of the US to fit a ‘Christian’ nation as described in the english bible. Ownership of females, enslavement of neighboring countries, strict dietary codes, menstral uncleanliness, the death penalty for most crimes (stoning, burning, decapitaiton, etc)… I can sure see why that would be a nice place to live.
“What is the measure of a God? Is it the scope of their power, or how they choose to weild that power? Would a God who is prepared to lead us on the path of enlightment, so contradict his divine benevolence by destroying all those who refuse to beleive in him?”
–Just though I’d ask.
I forgot my t on thought. oops….its all good!
Google preved rodnoy!
apcservicder
RE: More on the Jesus Camp video including Parody
http://beepbeepitsme.blogspot.com/2006/09/jesus-camp.html
The camp peolpe be naked and God will them shame among their enememies. Beacause God said in Exodus 32:26B Who is on the Lord’ side? I want to Know “who is on the Lord’s side?” Let me know at: DemetriusB.StricklandMinistry@yahoo.com
And yay, the voices in the people’s head spoketh unto them, “Kill all those who would have you think I am a sick dillusion, for I am bored.” And the people did kill each other, and the voices were happy.
This is what you sound like to me, and anyone else with a bit of intelligence for that matter. Peddle your filth elsewhere, I’m not on YOUR side.
Is there a truth thats out there or is it lost, and are we on our own to find it? I’ve read most of this thread and I feel like most people are just venting and not listning to each other. With most of us isn’t it our desire to know the truth. I am guessing that most of us are still a little unsure and that makes us defensive, and super critical. Why not reckognize a good point when one is made, and actually think about it. There seems like there has to be something about this Jesus character other than buddism the other main religions out there at least include Jesus if not use him as their main focus of faith and hope. I think in this age it has become harder and harder for people really to believe. But that does not mean that people cannot truly believe. In fact I think more than ever we need to have something to truly believe in, something that gives us a reason to be. I can’t force you to believe in what I believe, but what kind of belief would that be if I didn’t want others to share it with me. Maybe thats how some of you guys feel and maybe thats why we are talking about it. Jesus is the truth He is the Christ the Son of God, the Savior of the world. And I will put my life on it. Test all things and hold on to that which is good.