The National Museum of Kenya houses the largest and most complete collection of fossil evidence supporting Darwin’s theory of evolution. Many of the fossils were discovered by legendary paleontologists Louis and Mary Leakey in east Africa around the Olduvai Gorge, Lake Victoria and Lake Turkana. Some of the finds date back as far as 1.7 million years ago.
While most of the sane world sees these findings as a treasure trove of information for humanity, others are not so impressed… namely Christians. Complete story here.
Bishop Boniface Adoyo, who is leading a campaign against the exhibit, had this to say…
"It’s creating a big weapon against Christians that’s killing our faith. When children go to museums they’ll start believing we evolved from these apes… This is not the truth."
If this isn’t the truth, then what is? Thousands of scientists over the course of many years have dedicated their lives to uncovering the truth. They didn’t create it. Scientists simply make an educated guess and then look for supporting evidence. Meanwhile, other scientists with opposing views search for evidence supporting their claims. It’s a sort of self correcting system. But the basis of every claim is providing physical evidence and a bible doesn’t count as physical evidence.
Christians are so irate over evolution that they appear to many as an irrational and ignorant people who dismiss facts and relish folklore. Christians have such an investment in their faith that they are blinded to the reality that surrounds them as it opposes their views.
One last question for my Christian readers… Why are you so afraid of the possibility that we evolved from apes? I’m being totally serious here. Having apes as ancestors doesn’t diminish the uniqueness that we have today. Humans are special no matter where or who we came from… it really doesn’t matter. Does it?
Thanks Itanshi for bringing this one to my attention!
Related posts:
- Christian Hypocrites Attack Ford
- The Evolution Of Summer Camp
- Evolution? We Don’t Need No Stinkin’ Evolution!
- Tiktaalik Deals Another Blow To Intelligent Design
FTA: “When museums put it out there that man evolved from apes, theologically they are affecting many people who are Christians, who believe God created us”
If just visiting a museum or seeing an opposing view is all it takes to break someone’s faith, then their faith couldn’t have been that stong could it?
It always astounds me to see a statement like that, and I see them so much these days. A California school board said that it was okay to be gay and that schools couldn’t discriminate against it. The Christian response? They’re threatening to pull their children from schools. Some people decide that happy holidays is better than Merry Christmas? Its war on the greatest of Christian traditions! If you feel that the meer mention of an opposing view or belief is going to be enough to twist your child’s morals, then there are only two answers.
One. You haven’t done a good enough job raising your child. The layer of family values you put on them is paper thin and anything might break it. You’re children are a look and a breeze away from anarchy because they don’t really deeply believe in any moral system, they just follow it because you are watching.
Two. Your beliefs are absurd. They can’t hold up in the real world and a incompatible with logic and rational thought. Anyone no matter how deeply faithful when presented with the simplest of physical evidence on the contrary would have to laugh and cast off their beliefs the same way we cast off Santa and the Tooth Fairy.
answer #2 please. the lengths xtians will go through to justify their beliefs are unbelievable, even more so than their religion itself. in a way they remind me of hard core trekkies when they try to invent theories on how warp drive and matter transporters would be actually feasable ;-)
“in a way they remind me of hard core trekkies when they try to invent theories on how warp drive and matter transporters would be actually feasable”
oh come one, it’s quite simple. You merely take an absurd ammount of energy (M-AM reaction), use it to create a “warp” in space time through the use of a gravity field generator, and travel through that. :P
“Scientists simply make an educated guess and then look for supporting evidence. Meanwhile, other scientists with opposing views search for evidence supporting their claims. It’s a sort of self correcting system.”
NO!!! it’s all a big consipracy by the devil to send our kids to hell by not believing in god.
for those Ironically challenged, it’s a joke
Did human evolve from ape.. or did humans and apes evolve from a common species?
We evolved along side of other apes from a common ancestor that, too our eyes, would look and behave very much like an ape.
Did human evolve from ape.. or did humans and apes evolve from a common species?
common species that resembled current apes more than humans.
Well, from an unbiased biological perspective we are apes, but let’s skip that fact for a moment. We did not evolve from any apes that are still around today, but we do have common ancestry with today’s apes. That common ancestor is also an ape. Really I should get my wife to make a comment. She’s the Biological Anthropologist and knows a hell of a lot more about this than I do.
Hmm…
All of those creation “museums” are offensive to my faith eclectically decided independent opinion. I want them shut down too! They represent a threat to logic and are destroying the sane world.
“No”, they will scream, “you can’t do that! It’s discriminating against our faith! Stop forcing your beliefs on other people!”
I agree with Humanistic Jones wholeheartedly. If you have faith, and it really is faith, then that faith alone should be enough to believe what you do. There was a time when Christians were thrown for the lions for what they believed, and what happened? They became stronger. (Not that I’m saying we should start throwing Christians to the lions again, but you get my point.)
It seems like history is always the same story, a group in power tries to use their power to oppress others, eventually the oppressed get pissed off enough and they revolt. Then they gain power and start it all over again. The world would work a lot better if we just all accepted the fact that people think different. So Christians believe in God? Fine. But stop trying to press your agenda on me. We base science on empirical evidence, which is not the same as faith. To treat it as a religion is wrong. If certain Christians would stop lambasting against science as much as they do then I bet they would have fewer enemies now…
A couple months ago I asked a Christian friend of mine why he couldn’t accept the possibility that all the species gradually evolved from simpler organisms and systems.
One of my friend’s reasons which I had not heard before was that Jesus died on the cross to save mankind from Eve’s “original sin”. Without original sin, Adam and Eve would have lived forever.
So if humans evolved from apes, then the story of Adam and Eve is obviously a work of fiction, and so is the concept of original sin. Without original sin, there was nothing for Jesus to save us from. That is why Christians need to believe Genesis verbatim.
Not only that, for God’s making mankind mortal (as in, gauranteed to die) could be seen as a punishment without our having done anything wrong. And that would counter the Christian belief in a loving God.
Were xtians ever actually thrown to the lions? I’ve not seen any actual record of this ever happening. I haven’t seen everything of course, but I’ve seen enough dissenting information to doubt it. As a black american I’m very dismayed at Africans views on religion, there you can see religion at work, those in power keep the masses subjugated through whatever means available and with starvation and poverty rampant prayers falling on deaf (non-existant) ears. I’ll save my rant about the US powers-that-be not giving a damn for another day.
Stupid Christians, Muslems, any other god freak.
Sticking your head in the sand wont make reality go away…
Actually… why should ocean, natural balance and gravitation ‘God’s work’ and DNA or evolution not?
In my view, if god exist and IS the creator, then everything we discover is only his ‘tools’ and ‘working gears’, not some counter-claim for his existence…
But still, what we see here, those ‘faith’ battles, are not based on faith of god or anything similar, they are based in RELIGION, and that is a completely different thing altogether.
“Were xtians ever actually thrown to the lions?”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Christians#Persecution_under_Nero.2C_64-68_A.D.
Rome used Christians as their scapegoat for many of the problems with the empire (in much the same way as the Jews in more recent times). But if anything, the faith that these early Christians showed by dying for their belief probably drew more supporters than scared them off.
If wikipedia doesn’t do it for you, just google Nero, Christians, and lions and you’ll find more of the same.
The stupidist thing thing about all this is that Christianity is still the most persecuted religion by total head count in the world. (No, this is not necessarily Christianity being singled out; being the biggest religion in the world by head count, it’s naturally going to be the most persecuted.)
This talk of fossils threatening Christianity is nonsense, and it’s frankly insulting to the millions of Christians around the world who live in fear of their lives, not to mention everyone else in the world who lives in fear of their lives.
Oh, Mindriot: Actually, theologically speaking, the idea of original sin is still well and truly intact without a literal Adam and Eve story. All the story needs to be is metaphorical or otherwise non-literal. What the anti-evolution nuts (which, I might add, make up a minority of all Christians in the world; they just happen to make up a majority of the loudest ones in the US) are really afraid of is their interpretation of the role of the Bible being under threat. Which it is, because their interpretation is wrong.
I agree with Naery. Science today only challenges theology in the way that is needs to be integrated into a more metaphorical view of the bible.
Probably a month ago I discussed with two friends several questions about life. Starting from wether viruses should be viewed as living or not, we ended up at: “Do atoms (sub-atomic particles) have some kind of force that drives them into forming aggregates?”
And that’s exactly the point: The object of science is to explain HOW things work. The object of philosophy (including all religious theories) is to explain WHY things work that way.
I for myself chose to be atheist. From a logical point of view I should be agnostic (not knowing wether god exists or not), but I DECIDED not to believe in any higher reason behind the existence of matter. May be foolish, but I just feel better that way. Period.
So I do let other people decide on their own to follow a certain belief or not, but science, as it is no rival to any belief, shouldn’t be questioned.
“Sticking your head in the sand wont make reality go away…”
neh, but it’ll make them go away, which is better.
Sidfaiwu, technically wouldn’t we be homonids rather than apes?
As for this little gem of a story, the fact that this minister has gone all-out to take the exhibit offline shows the plausibility of evolution. If fundies are taking more of an interest in evolution, a scientific theory completely lacking an evangelistic nature, over other evangelistic religions out to convert the masses, surely it indicates that it really is a threat to religion.
It makes me feel all warm and happy inside to know that without using any form of heaven-carrot or hell-whip, evolution can lead the donkeys to a better understanding of biology ;)
Hello Agnostic,
Both humans and other great apes are hominids (members of the Hominidae family) under current taxonomy. So technically, you are correct. We are hominids, but so are gorillas, chimpanzees, etc. as were our some of our common ancestors.
“Oh, Mindriot: Actually, theologically speaking, the idea of original sin is still well and truly intact without a literal Adam and Eve story. All the story needs to be is metaphorical or otherwise non-literal. What the anti-evolution nuts (which, I might add, make up a minority of all Christians in the world; they just happen to make up a majority of the loudest ones in the US) are really afraid of is their interpretation of the role of the Bible being under threat. Which it is, because their interpretation is wrong.”
Why do you pick and choose what to believe based on what’s been proven wrong so far? You seem to be a person who listens to reason, so why not just accept that eventually, the whole book will be disproven. When it is(assuming you were alive which you probably wouldn’t be), are you going to “believe” in it, but take the whole thing metaphorically?
The bible is a work of fiction with some good lessons and some horrible ones. If you just want a science fiction book to teach you how to live, read some star trek novels or something.
If christians own such a strong faith,why do they fear science?
It only shows that their faith isn’t that strong after all.
“…but science, as it is no rival to any belief, shouldn’t be questioned.”
Wow! I thought I was entering a chat room with intelligent thinkers. To say that science shouldn’t be questioned? What about “bad” science? Lots of that around!
Scientific “fact” from 40 years ago is not only being questioned, but also being unequivocally proven wrong.
I don’t think that atheist is saying not to question science theories… that’s the basics of what science does. I think he’s saying that we shouldn’t question the process and method of science. The scientific method works well, and removes the room for bias or “bad” science. All the Scientific “fact” you’re probably refering to was carried out outside the auspice of the scientific method. And answer was given and the research was done to prove it. The best way to test a hypothesis is to do everything you can to disprove it and still come out with it intact in the end. The so call science behind racism and bigotry from previous decades had an intended goal and just picked up the few shreds they needed to “prove” it. Just like Intelligent Design is doing now.
Doc is right pointing out that science also needs to be questioned. That sentence of mine was indeed too short, sorry.
“Scientific fact from 40 years ago” needs not only refer to recognizing a jew from the way he walks and other racist trash. There was very serious resarch, carried out by the best methods, that has yet been disproven. How old is the idea of DNA and its helical structure, for example?
Even if we stick to critical methods science will never be “objective”. Kant proved that all cognition is subjective – you can only find out what you already anticipate (in short). Anyway, the ethos of the scientist commands him to strive for veracity as much as possible. It’s an ideal.
So what I intended to say was that although science itself is kind of a belief it shouldn’t be viewed as a rival to faiths, scince its goal is to be explanatory, not normative. I am aware of the fact that it is often misused to underline subjective arguments, which is no fault of science itself. Science tells you that eating sodium cyanide will cause death – no further message. If someone tells you it was scientifically proven that you shouldn’t eat KCN, it is an interpretation (assuming that you want to live).
Whew…OK, now I understand what you meant. When we stop questioning, we stop thinking. And that includes questioning all scientific theories and “facts” on both sides of the fence.
Psalms 14:1
The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.
@ #28
Oh no, a book who’s divine authority I don’t acknowledge and hold on the same level as all other fantasy books has claimed that I am a corrupt fool! I shall now believe every word of it out of the fear for my soul and cast off everything about the world I have observed for myself and all of my philosphies that I have built through life experience! Oh show me the way Anonymous!
I can only think that this quote is thrown down by Christians as a way to make themselves able to better sleep at night. Your holy book told you I’m wrong, so obviously I can doeth no good. You win, I lose.
Some day the falsities of all the holy books shall come to the light of reason! Men will stand naked before the real world and those who found faith only in paper and ink shall cry and gnash their teeth. But as was given to us in the article about Jehovah’s Witnesses and Blood transfusions by Gasmonso, “Have Faith in yourself”. Those who have faith in themselves shall stand on their feet and be as pillars for the people of the world.
See I can do the whole wordy-preachy thing too. And my words hold just as much validity as yours.
Isaiah 40:8
The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: but the word of our God shall stand for ever.
Babylon5 1:9 – and Kosh sayeth, You are not ready for immortality.
1st Corinthians 15:54
So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
Which word will stand forever?
“And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham.” (Gen 22:1)
“Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God; for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man.” (James 1:13)
John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Luke 4:4
And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God.
2nd Corinthians 4:2
But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man’s conscience in the sight of God.
1st Peter 1:23
Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
Ah those wonderful contradictions from the bible. While you’re quoting the new testament anonymous, tell me about all those times that Jesus and his followers said that he would return within the life time of the apostles. Those guys must be pretty old by now.
The true reason believers hate the internet is because anyone with two brain cells and google can cite chapter and verse within a minute. Internet access, reading comprehension and google; the true holy trinity.
#33
This is an issue with translation, not contradiction. The bible, as you know, was not written originally in English, but in Hebrew and in Greek. When the English translated the bible there was a lot of information that got “lost in the translation” if you will. you quoted Gen 22:1 which was from the WBST or DRB translation. These are lesser used translations and the only two which use that particular word. The rest of the translations I checked use words like tried, tested, or proved. These words have a different meaning then tempted. James 1:13 uses the word tempted in most translations except one that I found that says tested (which is the BBE which again is not widely used). My guess is (since I am not an expert in Greek or Hebrew) that the word “tempted” has a different meaning in Gen 22:1 than it has in James 1:13. Also Gen was translated from the Hebrew and James from the Greek. Which may be a reason the translators used the same word. The DRB is a catholic version which was translated from Latin which was translated from Hebrew. Understandably, even more meaning is lost when you translate twice. I prefer the older versions of the bible or the NIV, but even in these there can be parts that are poorly translated. And many words in Greek or Hebrew don’t have a good counter part in English. Which is why most seminaries teach Greek and Hebrew, and why it is important for pastors have a background in or understanding of Greek and Hebrew.
#35
To my knowlege you are wrong neither Jesus or the apostiles claimed that he would return in their lifetime.
In fact here is another verse.
Matthew 24:36
But of that day and hour knoweth no one, not even the angels of heaven, neither the Son, but the Father only.
the words of Jesus
#36
“Believers” (which I think is a good name) don’t hate the internet. I cannot speak for all believers with internet access, but i believe and I’m on-line right now. There are some things that are on display on the internet which, I think most everyone no matter what they believe can agree, are wrong. The internet is a tool and “believers” are using this tool as much as they can for good as some are using it for evil.
I’ve heard the ‘translation error’ argument before and rejected for the same reason I do now. Not that it’s not valid, the best translations translate ideas not words, but translations always lose something. How can someone reading today have any idea what the framers intended? And better than someone who was closer to the subject matter. Religioso’s now make texts mean whatever they want them to mean. I am versed in neither Greek nor Hebrew but I know that languages change constantly and even someone who is can’t guarantee that their best translation conveys what the committee that selected a particular passage wanted to convey.
The believers hating the internet was meant sort of tongue-in-cheek. A dig at fundies railing on the evils of the modern world. Not a literal insult at anyone.
The translation thing is funny, If the bible is word of god it should not be so suspectible for such things as errors. It seems somewhat contradictory.
Thanks, JKM. That’s something I hadn’t considered. That argument is going in my anti-god toolbox.
Its a good argument to have. All the people that claim the bible is the literal and unchangable word of god don’t have alot to do about this one. Especially since the bible has more than one English version most of which were jsut rewordings of previous english versions and not retranslations of older versions at all.
And let me refresh you memories Anonymous as to some of those wonderful verses on the return of Jesus where we gave a nice time frame. [Mathew 16:28 and 24:34, Mark 9:1 and 13:30, Luke 9:27 and 21:32, and John 21:22] in which Jesus mistakenly tells his followers that he will return and establish his kingdom within their lifetime.
I’m willing to bet, however, that he didn’t actually mean that and that the meaning of Generation was lost in the translation, eh?
I am sorry that I have not been able to post in some time. I have been rather busy lately.
To #42
This argument is not logical. To say that if an original text is true than all of the translations of that text into all different languages have to be just as true as the original is not a good argument.
If your statement is true i can make an originally true statement false simply by translating it incorrectly.
Translations are tricky things some can produce humorous results. http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/laszlo_gabris
/FELREAN.HTM
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/laszlo_gabris/FELREAN.HTM
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