It is widely accepted amongst Christians that Jesus was crucified and died for our sins. Actually, it’s accepted by ALL Christians because that’s a pretty important part of Christianity. If Jesus didn’t die for our sins, then Christianity would be rather screwed. But is it possible that Jesus didn’t die for our sins?
Not only is it possible, but its true! Jesus fled Jerusalem, leaving his brother to be crucified in his place. Jesus made his way across Russia and Siberia until he reached his final destination of Aomori in the far north of Japan. Here, Jesus gave up the life he once knew and settled as a rice farmer. He eventually married, had a family, and lived to the ripe old age of 114.
Don’t believe it? Well you can go see for yourself and talk one of his actual descendants - a Mr Sajiro Sawaguchi or his grandson Junichiro Sawaguchi, whose family just happens to be Buddhist.
By this point, I’m sure my Christian readers are just stunned and possibly even mortified. On one hand you have Jesus never dying for your sins, but on the other you have an opportunity to meet his descendants. Not a bad deal if you ask me!
Thanks go out to Itanshi for this one!
Related posts:
- Hasta La Vista Baby Jesus
- Jesus Freaks–The Documentary
- Madonna Died For Your Sins
- Muslim Crucifies Christian Slave
- Existence Of Jesus On Trial
April 26th, 2007 at 8:31 am
I’m… stunned. Where did you gain your Biblical knowledge, Jagannath? College? Self-study? It’s impressive. Can you suggest any good books on the subject?
April 26th, 2007 at 6:47 am
And this is important, too. Language is so limited for explaining absolut. The only way is too use simbol and metaphor. That’s why I think you waisting your time on analyzing details in Bible. Simbol and metaphor have at least few ways of interpretation, and interpretation depends on you, only. There’s no book in the world to assure you God exist and oposit. Faight has to come to you first, and that’s the way it goes, and that’s what you don’t understand. And it’s like a little miracle. And if you say miracles doesn’t exit, just look around. Life is miracle, this world is miracle. That’s why we all explore, atheist or believers, doesn’t matter.
April 26th, 2007 at 6:27 am
And Brian… I love God, I believe every word in the bible…if thats delusional. Lock me away in the loony bin. Whatever! I’m sold out to Jesus.
April 26th, 2007 at 6:25 am
whatever Jaganath. I am sure you figured by now that i dont value your opinion just as you dont value what i have to say.
You may know the bible but you dong ‘understand’ it. There is a difference. The holy spirit teaches us that, and you dont have him in you because you reject Christ. But thats fine…you cant have it all- as they say.
As for bringing the gospel, i have been here couple of days bringing the gospel to you. Let the Holy spirit nab whoever he wants. I have to say it guys…I give up. Your hearts are harder than Pharoah himself. All the best with the atheist stuff-hope it gets you all somewhere.
Thanks for the suggestion.Let me suggest something to you-seek the Lord while he may be found. Maybe you will get to heaven based on your decorum. Who knows As i said maybe one day we can compare who was right and who was wrong. Time will tell. If believing in a “flawed” bible is ‘ignorance’, well then sir, i am as ignorant as they come. Proud of that.
Janine J Fisher is out!! Throw a party…whooohoo.
April 26th, 2007 at 6:18 am
@ Brian
“If he’d really been divine, why didn’t he fix the bloody world, get rid of malaria?”
Have you ever read Dostoevsky? In his book “The Brothers Karamazov” you will find the answer. I’m very limited with my english, and I’m sorry because I can’t explain by myself, it’s taking too much time and energy and I still can say something wrong.
But the answer, no metter how much it looks as paradox is : because God loves us too much. There’s two visions of Jesus in the book, one from the eye of a skeptic and other from the eye of believer.
It’s a great book anyway, Dostoevsky is genius
and I’m suggesting this specially because it’s not Bible.
And abot this:
“Janine, your self delusion is stunning.”
It’s not delusion, if you live what you believe. :)
April 26th, 2007 at 6:07 am
I must say, you make a lousy evangelist if you quit already but I have nothing against you forsaking your sacred duty of going out and bringing gospel to unbelievers, specially when it is so flawed.
In a sense it has been tad unfair to you, I admit. I might have a better knowledge of the bible and biblical history and to add to my advantage the fact that I have been tested by even professionals in the bible debating business. Theologists really make the best bible professionals.
But I still suggest you read more non-biblical texts as you cannot base your faith on one corner, we all know what happens on situations like that.
April 26th, 2007 at 4:30 am
Janine, your self delusion is stunning. You spout your religion like it’s a unique thing. Christianity ripped off previous superstitions and is bunk. If you believe in prayer for example, pray for an amputee’s leg to grow back. After all Jesus said in the bible that if you ask, he’ll give it to you…
Then again Jesus said everything in the old testament was still in vigour, all the genocide for non believers, the killing of your children when they talk back. He was into infanticide in a big way. If he’d really been divine, why didn’t he fix the bloody world, get rid of malaria?
April 26th, 2007 at 2:44 am
Hell doesn’t scare me because it is a fiery place…but being seperated from the love of God would be more torture. Especially if you have known God at one time and later reject Him.
April 26th, 2007 at 2:43 am
Exactly ‘your father’. You all seem to believe that hell is make believe.
The bible says that there is a ‘gulf’ between heaven and hell. No contact. But by then, Jag may have found the Lord and he will actually be in heaven with the Lord, so its not important. Unfortunately nobody has come back to tell us what hell is really like or even heaven. But i am more into life myself. Death is for the dead, life is for the living.
April 26th, 2007 at 1:55 am
… but how can he exchange notes if hes busy being tortured for eternity with the rest of us unbelievers and non-christians?
April 26th, 2007 at 1:46 am
ok fine Jag. I am going to let you believe what you want on this. When we die, we will exchange notes on who was right and who was wrong. There is no convincing you-I see that now.
April 25th, 2007 at 4:14 pm
Well,
Satan=Lucifer, only in the media or in populists medieval allegorist translations. Not in the Bible, sorry, you need to read the book again.
There is very few scholars who would agree with your claim of,
“Isaiah 14:12-15 and Ezekiel 28:12-19 represent prophetic descriptions of Lucifer’s pre-fall condition.”
You know, prophecy cannot be made of already happened situation. another dictionary trip perhaps?
Also Ezekiel’s prophecy was that Tyre would be destroyed and never rebuilt, there is very little disagreement over that. Isaiah was also against Tyre but he was not that harsh in his opinion as he said the destruction would be temporary and Tyre would be rebuilt. Contradicting prophecies of Lucifer and of his fall which had already happened?
So either they talked of a town Tyre which would be destroyed and rebuilt or of Lucifer being destroyed and rebuilt. You claim they decided all the sudden to divine future by gazing back in time when all else they wrote was written of their contemporaries? Maybe that makes you happy but it does not make it truth.
More of Ezekiels words,
“therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee,”
This is the gist of the prophesy of Tyrus. It says a fire from the midst of thee. It speaks of the corruption of Tyrus at that time and of its destructive power which will devour the city. Ezekiel never spoke of external forces which would come and devastate Tyrus and even if Tyrus was conquered it has not been devastated from within as prophesied.
Bible suffered greatly during the medieval times from the allegorical interpretations which were extremely popular at that time. Many of the interpretations from medieval times have been refuted by theologians and bible scholars just because people in medieval times wanted to hear allegorical stories.
Have you read the Septuagint, Latin vulgate bible or just the bible you can get from the shop? Or perhaps you follow the Canon of the Tewahedo Church.
Either way, your understanding of the texts seem heavily influenced by what the popular and more selling view of bible gives. Sadly such view often ignores the new findings in historical and archaeological areas.
Considering that even roman catholic church sent encyclical Divino Afflante Spiritu in regards of such new findings only people full of pride claim that their bible is perfect.
You really should read about Nebuchadnezzar to correct your wrong image of him. You vilify him based on what, because he made Daniel the ruler over the province of Babylon?
April 25th, 2007 at 7:51 am
Yo Jagganath
Satan and Lucifer…same dude. He is also known as the accuser of the brethren, the opposer, the enemy. I dont like to talk about Satan cos i am inclined to believe that we humans are the biggest devils around. OUr selfrighteousness is more of a threat to us and Satan could ever be. The bible says we are evil from the day of our births, born with sin encrypted into our dna. We are not sinners because we sin, we sin because we are sinners.
About Ezekiel
It is accepted among a large number of Bible scholars that Isaiah 14:12-15 and Ezekiel 28:12-19 represent prophetic descriptions of Lucifer’s pre-fall condition.
The lower gods i was referring to was my man Lucy and 1/3 of the ex-angels in heaven.Ezekiel gives an account of Lucy -how he beautiful clothed in jewellery.Lucifer was his name before the fall. Lucifer is mentioned once in Isiaiah. I agree-thats truth. But Nebuchadnezzar was not Lucifer, he had the spirit of the devil for sure. He was wicked
The reference “King OF Tyre” Lucy aka Satan (bla bla)is often referred to in new testament as the “god of this world” or “ruler of this world” God speaking to Ezekiel is speaking of the ‘ruler” of tyre which in fact was awicked city that GOD judged.
Tyre was the maritime equivalent of Babylon. Carthage, a rival of Rome, was only a colony of Tyre. When Tyre was at the height of its power, the prophet Ezekiel prophesied:
“And they shall destroy the walls of Tyrus, and break down her towers: I will also scrape her dust from her, and they shall lay thy stones and thy timber and thy dust in the midst of the water. And I will make thee like the top of a rock: thou shalt be a place to spread nets upon; thou shalt be built no more: for I the Lord have spoken it, saith the Lord God.” Ezekial 26:4,12,14
The prophecy that Tyre would be thrown into the midst of the sea, and its former location be scraped like the top of a rock were fulfilled. Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon besieged the city and conquered it. The inhabitants of Tyre, however, escaped to a nearby island. Nebuchadnezzar then rendered the city to ruins. For two and-a-half centuries, these ruins were a mute contradiction of the Bible.
When Alexander the Great conquered the Medo-Persian empire, long after Nebuchadnezzar’s siege, the new island city of Tyre resisted his advances. Frustrated by their efforts, Alexander ordered his troops to build a causeway to the island by throwing the ancient ruins of mainland Tyre into the midst of the sea, and using the dust to create a way for his troops, thus fulfilling the prophecy that Tyre would be thrown into the midst of the sea.
All this has come to pass…Tyre never regained what she was. i dont understand how you say that the prophecy never came to pass. Perhaps you are being too literal with this.
April 25th, 2007 at 1:22 am
“the cance that showed up which didn’t exist before that much.”
So science created cancer? sorry, we have only started discovering what cancer is in the past century, so we have no idea what effect it has had on generations past that.
April 25th, 2007 at 12:17 am
Sidsfeiw
“You are right, though, science does have an ugly face. But I would argue that the benefits far out weigh the drawbacks.”
I think that the drawbacks is huge, it’s the way you look at it, cluster bombs killed millions so far, neuclure energy and the dieases that cause, and the poluation that caused by the scince, the cance that showed up which didn’t exist before that much.
To correct something about Egypt, people still so passionate and they try to help and they are nice if you are in trouble, that’s the only thing that didn’t change, and I don’t blame them for what they become, I blame the freaking government that we have and the morons that they run the country,they would do any thing to satisfy USA on the account of people, make them poor, so they don’t focus on the gov disasters, and they run after money to find something to eat, I wish I could show some picture, to see how people suffering in thier daily life.
I really feel sad when I start talking about Egypt, so that’s enough for tonight so I can sleep :))
April 25th, 2007 at 12:03 am
“I’ve just red this story about Jesus in Japan. What exactly makes you think it’s true? ”
You’re speaking to a crowd comprised mostly of skeptics… I’m fairly sure no one here actually believes the Jesus in Japan story. It’s just kind of funny.
April 24th, 2007 at 6:59 pm
I’ve just red this story about Jesus in Japan. What exactly
makes you think it’s true? Where is your rational proof? Legend known by two buddhist? For me is the same like that video about the girl who can see angels. Funny.
And what you think about that long walk accros Russia and Siberia in that time? Who can survive that cold? Germans in 20th century didn’t.
April 24th, 2007 at 5:24 pm
Now, I was going to just ignore this bit but after considering about it, I have to say something. I have no belief in the holiness of bible but I also abhor when people twist written word even when I disagree with the afore mentioned text.
@janine
in comment #127 you claim that Ezekiel 28:12-19 tells of the origin of lower gods.
That is nonsense unless your edition of the bible differs radically from the most common ones. All Ezekiel does is a repetition of a prophecy about the downfall of Tyrus (Tyre), it is all flowery about the apparent wealth of the city and then the standard fire and ash treatment which is quite common in bible.
But Tyre remains to this day, it has not been eradicated even if,
28:18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.
28:19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.
so Ezekiel got it wrong, how awkward, is it not? A biblical prophecy did not happen, the ‘fire from the midst thee’ did not ‘devour thee’.
But anyway, Ezekiel prophesied also that the people of Israel will reside in their homeland, in total safety and security. They would never again fight the neighboring nations.
Also it is a fact that scholars have been debating if whole book of Ezekiel should even be included in biblical canon. A concern that it might be misinterpret has been the basis for it. Apparently unlearned jews and christians would be guilty of such misinterpretation.
I could not verify if the first chapter is allowed to be read in Synagoques by people under the age of 30 today or if that restriction is still in effect. It does not really speak much of its reliability, does it?
Then to the reference Luke 10:18
10:18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.
So, does that mean that the scriptures claim Satan is a lower God? What happened to the prideful angel which was cast from heavens after losing the war against god? Was he promoted to godhood for a job well done? I doubt majority of Christians would subscribe to such view but then again bible says god has sons, notice the plural form, not a son but sons. JOB 1:6 and 2:1.
But for simplicity I have to assume the Luke 10:18 reference was to tie in this verse from Isaiah.
14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
Now, when you read the bible, how many mentions of Lucifer there is? To my knowledge there is just one, this single mention. Many Christians of today equal Lucifer with Satan and that is quite commonly reinforced idea by media and preachers.
Lucifer has a nice right to it when shouted out loud in the meetings but there is no biblical reference backing up such claims. The only mention is in Isaiah and why would it not be there as Isaiah was no fan of Babylonians and prophecies of god helping to defeat those who had beaten them can be found in abundance.
But Nebuchadrezzar was also known as the son of the morning or in short morning star. I am rather more fond of the Nebuchadrezzar the Great as his accomplishments were rather great even if jewish and christian view of him is different because he had the audacity to destroy temples in jerusalem and even conquest Judah or Judea. The conquerors have a nasty problem of being vilified by those they conquer even if under his rule things were in fact very good for the israelites.
So Isaiah does not speak of lower gods but of Nebuchadrezzar, the Lucifer. Isaiah even says that there is no other gods so how he could be speaking of lower gods? You have read your bible, have you? Isaiah 43:10,44:8,45:4-5,46:9 all deny the existence of any other god yet you claim there is more and say Isaiah said so? Other books do mention multiple gods but Isaiah is not one of those books.
Luke speaks of Satan and not of Lucifer. Satan was a fallen angel was he not? At least that is common view of him.
And Ezekiel, well Ezekiel did not get his Tyrus prophecy right. Many have claimed that his prophecy has actually realized but no fire from the midst has destroyed Tyrus, It has been conquered from outside but that is not the same and Tyre is still waiting to be wiped out. But he did not speak of lower gods either.
So the references you gave have nothing of lower gods at all so my original question remains, where does Ezekiel speak of most high god and added question is where he speaks of lower gods? There is no such mentions in a bible I have read, so your edition must differ greatly from those.
If you do not know your own holy book, how you can teach it to others without lying?
April 24th, 2007 at 1:25 pm
Hey orthodox,
“And this “Yikes†hurt my feelings. But you didn’t see real suffering, so how you can respond other than that.”
I meant no offense with the ‘Yikes’. I’m sorry it hurt your feelings. I just can’t imagine seeing nothing but misery all around me. As I said in my last comment, I see very little misery around, material or otherwise. Just about everyone I know are quite happy.
What is ‘real’ suffering anyway? What makes the suffering of the poor not ‘real’?
April 24th, 2007 at 1:10 pm
@ Your Father
Ok then, I’ll read more about it, this is the first time I hear about secular humanism, that’s why I asked questions, but from their website I get wrong idea. :-)
But you didn’t answer my last question, never mind, I got to go.
April 24th, 2007 at 1:04 pm
“And this I found on their website:
“To engage in research relating to the critical examination of religious and supernatural claims and the humanist outlookâ€
If you want to help, why loosing energy on this?
Why it’s so important for atheists if they live in peace with their belief?”
I believe what was meant by this is that they examine the proper practices for helping people, not the superstitious ones. For example, AIDS is a big problem in Africa, and Christians are over there preaching abstinence and telling them nothing about condoms. While this may be good in theory, it’s terrible in practice, and only causes more problems. People are going to have sex no matter how much you beat them with bibles.
April 24th, 2007 at 1:03 pm
@sidfaiwu
“Yikes! I hope that is not true where you live. If so, you should consider emigrating. When I look around me, I see very little misery. Maybe I’m just fortunate and the rest of the world is suffering. I haven’t done enough traveling to know for certain.”
Sorry, right now, I don’t have time to answer you everything. But this part illustrate you as atheist. You only see material world. I didn’t mean misery as poorness in material sense, more likely emptiness of a soul. But yes, my country is not the rich one, we were even bombed by Americans.
But you see, real orthodox, will never leave his country, because the meaning of life for one orthodox is not to live comfortably. To run away from the problems, and just to look his own selfish interests.I could never live happy without my people, maybe you can not understand this, and maybe that’s why you don’t see misery, around you. Material misery is the smallest one.
And this “Yikes” hurt my feelings. But you didn’t see real suffering, so how you can respond other than that.
I’v been around the world,I spend 6 months in America, but countries I like are poor. :-)
I’ll be back.
April 24th, 2007 at 12:59 pm
“I just don’t understand the logic of secular humanism.”
You clearly don’t understand secular humanism, PERIOD.
I didn’t say secular humanists only help atheists. Secular humanists CAN be religious, and DO help anyone, but it’s a philosophy that has nothing to do with religion, only helping people (and animals/nature etc..). I just said they don’t try to indoctrinate, while they do it… and are able to spend more money on food, shelter, and proper education.
I think anyone that helps the needy is doing a good thing, but I think those that do so without brainwashing are doing a better thing.
April 24th, 2007 at 12:23 pm
@your father
I have a question. If I want to join the Council for Secular Humanism, to help people who don’t belive in God, would they mind if I belive in God?
I don’t understand humanism who helps only people who don’t believe in God. If somebody is a real humanist, he will help all people. Making difference between people like that makes me suspicious. Sorry, I don’t know much about it. Those two atheists can’t be the biggest philanthropists in the world, if they only love atheists. It’s paradox. So I don’t see how secular humanism is far better then religion ( I belive you it’s good for people who are atheist), when religion teaches you to help atheists too, even your enemies. And there are people who believe in God, but they give their money to people who needs help, not only to people who believe in God. I just don’t understand the logic of secular humanism. Help me to understand. Money can always help, I saw people who lost everything in the war. If they get money, they won’t be hungry, they will have shelter, good! But even when they get compassion, they won’t get hope in a better days, without faith.
And this I found on their website:
“To engage in research relating to the critical examination of religious and supernatural claims and the humanist outlook”
If you want to help, why loosing energy on this?
Why it’s so important for atheists if they live in peace with their belief?
April 24th, 2007 at 11:24 am
Hello orthodox,
I just noticed you responded to me in comment #154. I have a lot of thoughts based on what you wrote. Allow me to take them piece by piece.
“people are weak generaly. You can have a high intellectual powers, but that doesn’t speak anything about your heart, or about your well-being.”
I’m guessing you mean ‘heart’ in the metaphorical sense, not the literal sense. If so, would you explain exactly what you mean by ‘heart’? Are you talking about emotions, core beliefs, morals, or something else?
“My opinion is that man can’t find happiness (we all want to be happy)if heart is not clear, if heart is not full of love.”
The meaning of this statement depends on exactly what you mean by ‘heart’, but since I am happy, deeply happy actually, my ‘heart’ must be clear. Yet I have no faith in any religion. Thus religion is not needed for a happy, fulfilling life.
“If you look around, you can see that we live in material world full od misery.”
Yikes! I hope that is not true where you live. If so, you should consider emigrating. When I look around me, I see very little misery. Maybe I’m just fortunate and the rest of the world is suffering. I haven’t done enough traveling to know for certain.
“20th century said “God is dead†and kill more people then all centuries together before that.Why? Because, if there is no God, everyhing is alow.”
I’ve actually been doing some reading on this topic recently. As it turns out, the 20th century has been the least violent, per capita. The main reason that so many more people died in wars the past century was primarily because there were more people on the planet. The linked article is an excellent and enlightening read that I recommend to everyone. From the article:
“If the wars of the twentieth century had killed the same proportion of the population that die in the wars of a typical tribal society, there would have been two billion deaths, not 100 million.”
In other words, the death rate from battle was 10 times higher in tribal societies. The article goes on to say:
“The decline of violence is a fractal phenomenon, visible at the scale of millennia, centuries, decades, and years. It applies over several orders of magnitude of violence, from genocide to war to rioting to homicide to the treatment of children and animals. And it appears to be a worldwide trend, though not a homogeneous one. The leading edge has been in Western societies, especially England and Holland, and there seems to have been a tipping point at the onset of the Age of Reason in the early seventeenth century.” (emphasis mine)
Thus the worldwide decline in violence directly correlates with the rise of rationality. Of course, the side effect of the increased use of rationality is the decline of religion. This means that violence and religion are also correlated.
“But that’s only my opinion, and orthodox faith is much more suited to my people, but that’s the question of different cultures. I don’t thing that God (doesn’t matter how we call it) will punish good people, we are all his creation.”
I consider this to be a very spiritually mature position to take and I respect it a great deal. Why not extend that reasoning to non-believers as well? Would God punish good people who don’t accept any religion?
I’m interested in your thoughts.
April 24th, 2007 at 10:29 am
Science is a tool and insight to reality, not a philosophy or a political agenda. Don’t compare religion to science… it’s like comparing apples to pixie dust. No sensible person, religious or not, would say we’d be better off without science. If you don’t like science, get off the internet and move to Amish country.
If you want to compare the merits of religion to something, how about another philosophy, like secular humanism, the ethical philosophy for the real world. I’d say secular humanism is far better for society than any religion. The world’s two biggest philanthropists are atheists, so all their money goes to helping people, instead of indoctrinating people under the guise of helping people.
April 24th, 2007 at 9:49 am
I did read what the great Sid said…the whole thing. Seems like a copout to me to blame political reasons because science with all its knowledge and reasoning is failing miserably. Like running on a treadmill-moving but aint getting anywhere. Yes these countries are poor…but what is science doing about poverty. Things that really matter. With the leaps science has made and all your claims, this world should have no issues whatsoever.
If all these brilliant scientist could just tap into “THE SOURCE”, what a wonderful world this would be.
April 24th, 2007 at 9:43 am
@ Agony
Reason for life? Life itself, life is gift, miracle. Life in agony is not life, it’s hell. You can live in heaven right now, here on earth, you just have to realise that. Everything is in your mind and heart. Clear it, and you’ll see. It’s hard battle, but if I could win, you can win too, everybody can win.
April 24th, 2007 at 9:12 am
“Granted, the distribution is far from fair, but that is due to economic and political reasons, not scientific ones.”
“Obviously the science of transportation would have to make massive strides to reach them in time.”
Clearly you didn’t read what he wrote… even though you quoted it.
April 24th, 2007 at 8:37 am
Much respect to the progress we have made over the year.
“Another place to look for life-saving fruits of science is in transportation. Famine is less common and shorter lived because of our ability to move food quickly from locals of excess to locals of need. Granted, the distribution is far from fair, but that is due to economic and political reasons, not scientific ones.”
Tell that to my Cushite brothers and sisters in Somalia, Ethiopia. Show me statistics that prove that famine is less prevalent now (now that we’ve made leaps in transportation)than it was in the past. Obviously the science of transportation would have to make massive strides to reach them in time.
April 24th, 2007 at 8:29 am
Hey Mohamed,
I’m sorry about the disappointing aspects of your trip. Your honesty is admirable. I’m glad you are willing to change your opinion when presented with enough evidence. If you do decide to start a blog, let me know. I’d be interested.
“Don’t forget that some dieseases caused by scince too, don’t think that scinec doesn’t have an ugly face, nuclear weapons etc…, that’s how you look at things, just one side, every thing has two sides, even religion”
I’m not aware of any diseases caused by science. Medical science is overwhelmingly life-saving. Anyway, you said you wanted to see science save someone. I just pointed out that it happens all the time. Another place to look for life-saving fruits of science is in transportation. Famine is less common and shorter lived because of our ability to move food quickly from locals of excess to locals of need. Granted, the distribution is far from fair, but that is due to economic and political reasons, not scientific ones.
You are right, though, science does have an ugly face. But I would argue that the benefits far out weigh the drawbacks.
April 24th, 2007 at 7:28 am
Child like faith is not necessarily what you believed as a child but how you believed.
April 24th, 2007 at 7:11 am
Ah Agony…gee the name says it all.
Jesus said “unless we have faith as a child, we will not see (experience) the Kingdom of Heaven. Yes we need to grow up, become adults but we should never abandon “child like faith” Things you believed as a child (not directly to you) you now question and you think you have arrived. Why? If you could believe stuff as a child, why not now when you are a grown man.
Life was given to man as worship unto a God who was there before the beginning begun (unfathomable!even for me.)That same GOd was not created by anything, He was just always there. A good God, a Holy God. The angels asked ‘what is man that thou art mindful of Him…and the son of man that thou visiteth with him , that you made him a little lower than Elohim” Even the angels could not understand. Gods plan for man was to be crowned with Himself, so that he can look at us and see Himself in us.He created us to have dominion over the earth and all that was in it, to walk with Him, to commune with Him. After the fall,we lost our ‘position’, in fact we gave it to a lower being. Jesus came to restore this order. Now we can once again have fellowship with God since our sins have been washed away. Now we can walk with Him. Now when He sees us He sees a reflection (the image) of Himself. God’s original plan was restored when Jesus cried out “IT IS FINISHED” You see for this, you need this childlike faith or else it will sound like a fairytale to you. Now that childlike faith becomes the wisdom of God made manifest in man. U dont even need a degree for that. All you need is to accept what Christ did for us.
April 24th, 2007 at 6:56 am
I wish one of you religious people would enlighten me on the “reason for life”, because whatever reasons I heard up until now sounded more like excuses for little children.
April 24th, 2007 at 6:39 am
“Both of them belived in God. With intellect you can get knowledge, but can get cognition. Knowledge makes a man smart, but cognition makes man genius”
Ah Irishthunder, there we go again…ever seeing, never perceiving. Orthodox docked it right there. With all your knowledge (you know as per your resume),you still lack wisdom(understanding, cognition, perception, discernment). Ya just dont get it. The whole reason for life…the whole thing…you missed it. You and your pallies. The truth has evaded you. Eish, scary.
April 24th, 2007 at 6:32 am
nice to meet u.
April 24th, 2007 at 6:02 am
Sister ;-)
April 24th, 2007 at 5:54 am
Edit:
or sister…sorry I am not sure.
April 24th, 2007 at 5:52 am
Orthodox…there is nothing wrong with displaying the wisdom of God and fortunately (for lack of a better word) for you, the wisdom of God shines through. Keep believing my brother.
April 24th, 2007 at 5:39 am
@Brian
You said:
“the reason many more were killed in the 20th century is because they had 20th century organized society and technology.”
I said:
“You can have a high intellectual powers, but that doesn’t speak anything about your heart.”
God is love. When you kill, there is no love in your heart. There is no God, you just use him in a rational way, as an idea to do evil. Bad idea, bad emotions. Killing in the name od God is the worst sin on Earth.
@irishthunder
You look at nature with the scientist eye, with your intellect. It’s ok, there is too much things we don’t know, but everything we know about is simple, because we understand it. Everything you understand is simple. Don’t you think? Our intellect is limited, that’s why things are complicated. But the great minds like Tesla or Einstein, they didn’t use only intellect and logic to dicover truth, they used imagination and intuition, too. Don’t forget that!
Both of them belived in God. With intellect you can get knowledge, but can get cognition. Knowledge makes a man smart, but cognition makes man genius.
@janine
Thanks, but if I start to belive I’m wise, that will be the begining of my foolishness.
April 24th, 2007 at 3:24 am
Oh Irishthunder…not sick enjoyment. just fun. How can you describe myself (God loving and all that) in the company of intellectuals (self loving, atheists) sick. But then again…
Well if you want me to say that God judges the mind…sorry, no can do amigo. God judges the heart (not the organ, but the feelings, thoughts and general condition of your inner self)Usually one can tell the condition of ones heart but what comes out of their mouth. But then you just want to get technical about this, dont you-to flaunt your resume. You seem so insecure in all your knowledge…how many things do you have to study to prove to everyone that you aren’t stupid. mmm?
Aah i knew that mentioning my ‘age’ would get a response. You so easily “bite” the bait. I knew that this would be an opportunity for you to once again exalt yourselves. Well done! But this is getting too easy.
April 24th, 2007 at 1:38 am
Janie, being someone who studies philosophy, psychology, and biology, one of my biggest pet peeves is when someone refers to the heart when they really mean the mind.
“And I am almost thirty…so if i were you”
I actually laughed out loud when i read that, you can not be serious. But i guess that just another example of what religion can do to the human mind.
It’s actually very sad that your posting just for your sick enjoyment and nothing else. I wish you would try to read this and follow some of the advise you’ve been given, however i doubt that will ever happen.
April 24th, 2007 at 1:23 am
Hey Guys Howzit!
Irishthunder…you know what I meant by “heart”. You are making yourself sound less intelligent than you claim to be.
Sid…how are you this morning. you said
“My guess is she’s a relatively recent missionary convert and probably young as well(late teens / early twenties). The fact that Christianity is a minority in her country (Hindu majority) probably contributes to her intransigence.
You got me all wrong there. But I aint mad at ya. THanks for the compliment about being a missionary. I would love to be that oneday. Christianity is actually the majority in my country. Very few Hindus in South Africa compared to the rest of the world. And I am almost thirty…so if i were you, I wouldn’t pursue a career in “Profiling” or something where you would be required to use “discernment”. Just keep to that which you can prove by fact.
And Irishthunder…you are right. THis is sooo fun. I love to laugh at what you all say and thank God I am thousands of miles away from you all. You would have probably crucified me by now.
Sid…you are full of knowledge (cool) but you lack wisdom. In fact, thats the problem with all of you atheist dudes. To follow Jesus is the best decision you can make, and if you want to be hated and persecuted (even online), then this is the belief to choose.
Jagganath…with the double “g” whats shaking?
You said “According to bible he did not much care what majority thought, he did not follow traditions and he did not choose the easy way out.”
Ahh Jagganath, I see we are agreeing again. Thats it right there…right there and this time you said it. Ah twas the foolish things that confounded the wise.
And Orthodox…i have never seen such a display of wisdom on this site. You said it all …we are body, soul and spirit, each part of us needs to be nurtured. Thats the problem with you science freaks, only part being nurtured is your physical bodies-in fact only that grey area between your ears. The rest of you is dead. But thank God Jesus came to ‘revive’ the dead. He came that we may have life. Science freaks…choose life today.
April 24th, 2007 at 12:28 am
Sidfaiw,
Don’t forget that some dieseases caused by scince too, don’t think that scinec doesn’t have an ugly face, nuclear weapons etc…, that’s how you look at things, just one side, every thing has two sides, even religion, if you are so religious so you don’t communicate with other people that’s wrong and extreme.
The othe thing, your answer about Islam achivements answer a lot of people misunderstanding, it proves that Islam didn’t ocstract scince achivemnt, on contrary it pushs it and motive it, and that’s prove my point that Islam has nothing to do what the muslims doing at the present time.
My vacation was really frustrating, because I found out that Egyptians change to the worth, and the government killing people slowly, it’s really sad see a good people runing behind the money, all the interest people in Egypt now is money, and I think people in Egypt mostly influenced by the American movies, they think that what they see in the movies is the real life in USA. People in Egypt now declining morally, they forgot all Islam teachings, and they follow Hollywood movies and wrestling.
If I start talking about Egypt I will talk three days with out stopping, I got some pictures and videos show how tough the life in Egypt now, I’m thinking about making a blog about, but I’m afraid when I return back to Egypt they will consider me spy.
I know some people is going to come after me because I used to talk good about Egypt, but I always like to tell the truth, People in Egypt has changed to the worth.
April 24th, 2007 at 12:01 am
“Easy answers? The truth is always simple, beauty is always pure. Look the nature how simle it is.”
Nature is NOT simple, especially when it comes to explaining the universe around us. If you don’t believe me do a little research into astrophysics and black holes for example(one of my favorite subjects to study). Im kind of surprised your trying to to say nature is simple considering “the universe is too complicated for there NOT to be a creator” argument is used by creationists.
April 23rd, 2007 at 8:33 pm
“If you look around, you can see that we live in material world full od misery. Spiritual life is almost dead. 20th century said “God is dead†and kill more people then all centuries together before that.Why? Because, if there is no God, everyhing is alow.”
Hi Ortodox, the reason many more were killed in the 20th century is because they had 20th century organized society and technology.
For example, if you have a stick and are working alone, no matter how insane or evil you are, you will not get a high body count, in fact you’ll probably be subdued quite quickly.
You need an organized group who have the techonology to kill millions and don’t see the people they are killing as equal to them. Like the Nazis didn’t see the jews as equal because they have been demonized by christianity for millenia. Like a muslim who blows himself up, doesn’t see his victims as being ethically righteous as him.
If god existed and was merciful, why does he allow millions to be murdered and die of disease each year? They can’t all be evil people….. You know the answer..
April 23rd, 2007 at 6:13 pm
My english is not that good that I can clearly expalain to you all this questions. But I’ll try.
In my dictionary ortodox or orthodox is the same thing. I’m not suggesting that somebody who don’t believe in God cannot be a good man. But people are weak generaly. You can have a high intellectual powers, but that doesn’t speak anything about your heart, or about your well-being. If you don’t have a clear ideal right in front of your eyes, it’ very easy to be lost. My opinion is that man can’t find happiness (we all want to be happy)if heart is not clear, if heart is not full of love. If you look around, you can see that we live in material world full od misery. Spiritual life is almost dead. 20th century said “God is dead” and kill more people then all centuries together before that.Why? Because, if there is no God, everyhing is alow. Racio rules. Faith is fight for spiritual worth. But I’m speaking only about true faith, not fake faith when you’re killing others in the name of God. Every God is good God if teaches yuo love, and how to fight evil.
I know what you mean when you say “faith has been used to justify oppression so often”. But the right word is not faith (maybe church is a better word, but who leads churches? man! who is weak!). Faith has nothing to do with oppression. Faith is individual mood, you can follow it when it comes in your heart, and can be very powerfull feeling for man to do good, but first to do good that clears your heart. Introspection, atonement, confession. Temptations are everywhere, even in a little things that look unimportant. Faith gives you the best way to have highly consciousness about you thoughts, emotions and doing.
Why Jesus and not Buddha for example? Buddha’s way is very similiar, and it’s good way also. But for me there is one catch. For Buddha material world is illusion, aim is nirvana. Dragging into your self. But the world needs us, you have to be in harmony with your self, but also in harmony with the world. Reject the world and you can easily despite it. But that’s only my opinion, and orthodox faith is much more suited to my people, but that’s the question of different cultures. I don’t thing that God (doesn’t matter how we call it) will punish good people, we are all his creation.
Easy answers? The truth is always simple, beauty is always pure. Look the nature how simle it is. Only man has vanity that complicate things and destroy everything around. And atheist has it too much, look what atheist idea-communism did to many countries.
Man is not only a material creature. He has body, racio, but have soul and spirit, too. He needs food in every aspect, he needs to grow in every aspect to be complete, and to live in harmony.
And only atheist who never tried to live Jesus way can say it’easy. More you grow in a good way, more temptations you have. It’s very hard fight, because you have to fight with yourself.
April 23rd, 2007 at 2:17 pm
Hello ortodox (perhaps you meant to call yourself ‘orthodox’?),
Don’t worry too much about your English. You write it well enough to get your point across.
“[Faith]’s the way how you become a better man, man with clear heart and powerful mind.”
Are you suggesting that people without faith cannot better themselves? I beg to differ. Since I gave up faith, I’ve become much more knowledgeable and moral. Faith was actually a hindrance to bettering myself.
Even if faith did better a person, why must it be faith in Jesus? Why not faith in Buddha, Krishna, or Mohamed? Even if you found a way to prove that faith improves a person, there is no reason to choose one particular faith over another.
“I can never understand people who fights against something that good (faith).”
It’s because faith has been used to justify oppression so often. We fight it because faith presents a clear danger to anyone who happens to not believe.
“Maybe because it’s easier then to follow Jesus. It’s a weakness, if you ask me.”
If you ask atheists, following Jesus (or any other religious leader) is a sign of weakness. Religions offer easy answers to life’s toughest questions. It’s far too easy to simply accept these prepackaged answers than struggle to answer these questions. It’s intellectual weakness to follow Jesus, if you ask me.
April 23rd, 2007 at 2:15 pm
I am not exactly sure what you mean but if you mean that submitting to majority view, to be yoked without resisting, to let your inquisitiveness crushed as it is not agreeing with what you were taught, then I agree that following traditional view of jesus is easier.
The path of least resistance is very human choice but borrowing from another thread, what would jesus do?
According to bible he did not much care what majority thought, he did not follow traditions and he did not choose the easy way out.
Assuming his fate was not predestined, which kind of makes the whole dying bit quite meaningless, it sounds to me that he would be on the forefront in questioning the existence and authority of god.
Not to deny it perhaps, I would assume, but to make you think about it yourself instead of just accepting things from external sources a.k.a. other people.
Weakness would be just going with the flow.
April 23rd, 2007 at 1:47 pm
You can’t prove God exist, but you can’t prove God doesn’t exist. Faith is not the matter of racio, but the matter of heart. Even if the truth is that there’s no life after death, you have so much power from your faith here and now, because Jesus way is the way of light. That’s the way how you become a better man, man with clear heart and powerful mind.
I can never understand people who fights against something that good. Maybe because it’s easier then to follow Jesus. It’s a weakness, if you ask me.
Sorry, about my english.
April 23rd, 2007 at 11:28 am
But sid, its so fun. Besides, it keeps her checking this site, which rises the tiny chance she’ll actually read something by mistake. By the way, classes are getting rough, on the last week before exams, hopefully it wont effect my appearance here.
April 23rd, 2007 at 11:02 am
Hello irishthunder,
How’s your semester winding up? You must be busy this time of year.
Though the temptation may be strong, I would suggest not responding to janine’s comments. She doesn’t value anything that we have to say. See comment #128 for examples of her intolerance to others’ thoughts. She’d ignore anything we write that doesn’t meet her predetermined world view. Even her recent ‘blah blah blah’ is a futile attempt to trivialize the thoughts of others.
She is too spiritually puerile to even consider world views that differ from her own. My guess is she’s a relatively recent missionary convert and probably young as well(late teens / early twenties). The fact that Christianity is a minority in her country (Hindu majority) probably contributes to her intransigence.
April 23rd, 2007 at 10:21 am
“thats why you mentioned you have friends praying for you and it actually seems to please you that they do.”
you misunderstand, the reason i am pleased is because its good to know that my friends and family are thinking about me. Which is the only real benefit of prayer.
“Since GOD judges the heart”
Why would your god judge the organ in my body that pumps blood? Why not my lungs or liver? those are pretty nice organs too(except i do enjoy a little liver destruction on the weekends)
April 23rd, 2007 at 9:43 am
Blah blah blah, lets see science add one day to your “clock out” date. Science cant even find a cure for Aids. Over 20 years into its ‘known’ existence, millions dead…please askl someone dying of a disease science was unable to cure if on their dying beds, in their final moments they are thinking about science. Puhlleease! You guys are so full of yourselves.
I didn’t ever think there were people who were so blatantly disrespectful to God. Irishthunder-I dont think that you dont believe in God. I actually think you do -thats why you mentioned you have friends praying for you and it actually seems to please you that they do. Your atheist/scientist friends would be disappointed if they knew what was really in your heart of hearts. So you cursing God is really brave. Since GOD judges the heart…one of two things will either happen. Your words will come back and bite you (hard) or God is going to use you (tremendously)for His Kingdom…telling people about Jesus everywhere! Whoooo! In the state you are in now, the latter will be better for you.
Gosh, I cant wait to see what you people have to say tomorrow. Cheerio
April 23rd, 2007 at 9:00 am
Hey Mohamed,
I hope you’re weekend was good. Are you still vacationing in Egypt?
“You are free to believe what you want, good luck with your science, I want to see how your science will save.” (spelling corrected)
Do you seriously want to see science save? Visit a hospital. Millions of lives are saved because of scientific progress. Even if all the healing myths of Christianity and Islam were true, medical science has saved more lives than all the spiritual leaders combined.
Of course if you meant that you’d like to see science saves ’souls’, then you are looking in the wrong place. None of us want or expect science to save our ’souls’. Furthermore, most of us doubt the existence of a ’soul’. In fact, what the hell is a ’soul’? We’ll leave the salvation of make believe things to religions.
“ask some athiest here what the Muslims did all of the years that the west was in dark ages”
I can answer some of that. The Muslims developed mathematics to a level unimagined by the Greeks. They invented algebra, for one. Also, they came up with a huge improvement over the Roman Numeral system, our modern-day Arabic Numeral system. Without which modern society would be impossible. Furthermore, Muslims made huge strides in astronomy and navigation tools that eventually enabled Europeans to find and colonize the new world. Lastly, they preserved the knowledge of the ancient Greeks when the Roman Catholic Church destroyed much of it.
But, Mohamed, I don’t think those achievements where the results of the Muslim faith, but of the rationality and intelligence of people within the culture. Correct me if I’m wrong, but during those years, the Muslim world was much more secular than Europe. My guess is it was the relative lack of faith that enabled those achievements.
April 23rd, 2007 at 7:52 am
“The day of reckoning is coming. On that day we will all give an account of our lives.”
I lead a good life, i like helping others and eventually hope to benefit mankind as a whole through my career. If thats not good enough for your god then fuck him, if theres a hell ill probably be in good company.
April 23rd, 2007 at 2:37 am
Well I agree with Mohammed
“You are free to beleive what you want, good luck with your science, I want to see how your scince will save”
The day of reckoning is coming. On that day we will all give an account of our lives.
“And Bottom line if your going to believe in yourself centered realities get some good evidence that actually supports what you didnt make.God did.
For God-good one.
The bible says that men will become lovers of themselves, not of God. And here we see jsut that…people who worship their intelligence, their humaness. Who, just like us believers cannot add a single minute to their lives. Believing in myself is a death sentece…rather believe in the Christ in me. Some scientists need to hear me.
April 22nd, 2007 at 10:47 pm
Edit: No one, for Know one. Doh!
April 22nd, 2007 at 10:46 pm
“Since we are so close to monkeys, do you really think a monkey would have been able to come up with the scientific method of actually learning how to start a fire.”
People who write this rubbish reveal their ignorance. Know one has ever said monkeys are humans or vice versa. We share a common anscestor. The bones are quite clear, the DNA is quite clear. It’s not up for debate. The fact that we evolved “higher” level thinking that allows us to use language and symbolism which we use to develop our science and techonology in no way changes our anscestory. Higher apes by the way, do use simple language and tools. But they didn’t evolve all the prerequisites for writing it down and debating it with others to colaborate and further that knowledge. The fact that we can, doesn’t show god, only that we can.
I read a cool quote somewhere: “Those who doubt the evidence for evolution have to remember that their theories have no evidence.”
God has no evidence, and is nothing more than ignorance dressed up as something good. Just old superstition that divides and shackles us.
April 22nd, 2007 at 10:33 pm
“A “SCIENTIST†a person who thinks they can explain the whole word in 10 minutes could say this rock is 987077850 million years old, while a creationist might say that the rock is only a couple thousand years old.”
These rocks DO provide evidence because scientists use effective methods to gather data from them. Creationists are just fucking wackjobs that are having trouble separating reality from imagination.
“HOw can you tell the stars have been there for years and we havent been able to land on one.”
I hope this is a serious question, but ill respond anyways. Im guessing you dont know what a “lightyear” is, it is the distance light travels in one earth year. Which would be close to 9,460,730,472,580.8 km, so it would take decades if not centuries for us to reach them with current technology.
“Bottom line if your going to believe in yourself centered realities get some good evidence that actually supports what you didnt make.”
I could say the same to you. You believe in god, no matter how much evidence we can show you you will stay that way with you fingers in your ears.
April 22nd, 2007 at 9:42 pm
First of all this article is absolute wrong. You did manage to freak me out for a second. But obviously you are a fool if you actually read this article it states very plainly about this being a legend key word legend. whatever how many great grandsons doesnt even believe being related to a Jesus. You people speak of science like you are educated. Then you believe something like this. Also not to mention but there were hundreds of thousands of Jews named Jesus. Any of them could have traveled the long distances to Japan. In fact the bible is one of the only books in the world that can be backed up by physical evidence.
Everyone is actually educated knows that Jesus exists and that he was a profit. Okay obviously when you blow something up particles do not seperate into little pieces that form into another kind of matter. Then some how the particles come together to form life.
You still lie, you ask me to tell “my†science to you, like it is a religion. It is not. You know it isn’t, you use a computer, Is that belief, it most certainly didn’t come from the quran or any good muslim. You fly planes, where did they come from?? quote from Brian
Where on earth do you think man just bore the intelligence of fire and other elements that have the building of technology. We would not have been intelligent enough to pass of more than a simple invention such as that with such primitive minds and extremely short life spands. Since we are so close to monkeys, do you really think a monkey would have been able to come up with the scientific method of actually learning how to start a fire. Undoubtly not, we would be so lost and would definately not care to share the intelligence with others. Look at Foreign countries like Afganistan, these people hardly understand anything but their own language, that they can hardly even write in. Your stating that science is likely to learn something like computers in ages with more primitive human beings than that.
I will also leave you with a closing note. People the carbon dating all that crap, is highly influenced by the geologist dating the rock. A “SCIENTIST” a person who thinks they can explain the whole word in 10 minutes could say this rock is 987077850 million years old, while a creationist might say that the rock is only a couple thousand years old. So obviously these so called rocks provide no evidence.
Theory of light so you can see light and prove that it moves at the speed of light. So when you get your telescopes and look at stars and say that is so many light years away and that one so many light years away. HOw can you tell the stars have been there for years and we havent been able to land on one. Record how long an individual star has been shinning. Its like me pointing at a spec of dirt and telling you its million years old if its this shade and another if its this shade. And based on these shades we can tell the big bang has happened.
Bottom line if your going to believe in yourself centered realities get some good evidence that actually supports what you didnt make.God did.
April 21st, 2007 at 10:55 am
My faith didn’t deleiver any thing?, that’s big lie, you can ask some athiest here what the Muslims did all of the years that the west was in dark ages, and they will tell you they did.
You are living big lie, and I promise this day is coming, whether you like or not, but your scince will not help you.
Please don’t say that I’m lier, there is no need to use such a terms against each other, you got frustrated, and you should come over your frustration. And I’m going to tell you that, at any given moment you will not as frustrated as I’m, but I still hold my self.
April 21st, 2007 at 9:58 am
I disagree, not because there this day will never come, but only because when it comes you or I won’t exist no more.
You still lie, you ask me to tell “my” science to you, like it is a religion. It is not. You know it isn’t, you use a computer, Is that belief, it most certainly didn’t come from the quran or any good muslim. You fly planes, where did they come from?? Etc, etc etc, and yet you lie in your discussions. Show me one simple thing that your great faith can deliver or admit it, it’s a sham.
April 21st, 2007 at 9:49 am
Brian,
am pissed off, it’s like Mohamed, he’s lied to me several times in the last week. Most annoying…..
I have no longer things to say to you, all I can say that we will know one day who is saying the truth or not, you think this day will never come, but I promis you it’s so close, we just think we are going to live longer that we should, but the day is coming no matter what you do, and I’m talking about the Judgment day, so no body mistake what I’m tryind to say.
You are free to beleive what you want, good luck with your scince, I want to see how your scince will save.
Please tell your scince hi to me.:)))))))))))
April 21st, 2007 at 9:41 am
I will say this, we scientists (I mean those who follow the positivist or scientific way of looking) are way to nieve. Not because our theories are wrong, or lacking evidence, but because we use expressions like the big bang, which is just a time a great expansion of energy/matter. If we called the time of the “movement/change” we may not have to suffer the nonscientific crap of caliFragi. The big bang is just a term for a point in the history of the universe from whence we can date/measure things. It most definetly is not the creation of the universe.
Today I was in a waiting room and my wife passed me a pamplet from the Jehos (Jehova’s Witness) and it was so full of lies and half truths, like the rubbish from caliFRAGI. I thought about investigating the possibility of taking the Jehos to court for lying or whatever, but then my pecuinary situation intervened in my mind.
Still, am pissed off, it’s like Mohamed, he’s lied to me several times in the last week. Most annoying…..
April 21st, 2007 at 5:37 am
“One big bang created a perfect ecosystem.”
I guess you dont realize how “big” the big bang would have have been. We are talking every atom in the entire universe condensed into one, tiny ball of matter. Out of that and the laws of physics something unique was bound to happen, and i dont doubt that it has occurred or will occur on other planets in other galaxies.
April 21st, 2007 at 5:23 am
how come thousands of people who yelling, mocking, spitting, etc became stupid and cannot tell which one is Jesus & which one is Jesus’ brother?!
“If the God of the Bible did create the universe, what type of evidence would you think you would find?â€
so, you believe in big bang theory? I ask the same question to you: what type of evidence would you think you would find? One big bang created a perfect ecosystem? about planets, life and death, water circulation, seasons, atom-particle-wave, etc?
April 20th, 2007 at 10:51 pm
Thanks Sid~ still mulling it over. I’ll run it by him and see what he says.
@10
I’m pretty sure that God brought the chosen people down from their pedestal when he gave the Gentiles direct access. The children of Isreal were given many chances to succeed and were the victim of their own actions many times in the Old Testament. And as of now, they don’t believe Jesus was the Messiah and therefore are outside of His grace. Not that a happy charmed life is what is promised to a Christian. Actually the promise is suffering and persecution. Many Christians have this all wrong though. Anyway, I’m not trying to convince you of anything, it just sounded like you might be mistaken on the current status of the “chosen ones” according to the Bible. And, you are going to have to point out how the Bible is EASILY proven to be the product of the human imagination. I’ve been studying like mad and have not found an easy answer…again, I’m not waging war or a battle of wits, I am just in pursuit of reliable proven facts.
April 20th, 2007 at 1:10 pm
Hello AJ,
‘Sid’ is just fine (that goes for everyone else as well). I don’t know if you noticed, but I did answer your previous comment(#85) in comment #107. It would be easy to miss with the amount of comments this post has received recently.
“If the God of the Bible did create the universe, what type of evidence would you think you would find?â€
That person did ask an excellent question. My guess is that the motivation behind asking such a question is to demonstrate that no amount of evidence would be enough to convince some people of the truth of the Bible. It goes to the falsifiability of a nonbeliever’s denial of Christianity. Striving to answer it should be important to all nonbelievers.
This is how I would answer the question. Convincing evidence would have to be repetitious and overwhelmingly non-contradictory. First of all, we would find no fossil evidence of any life on earth prior to 6,000 years ago, if Genesis is to be interpreted literally. That would be strong evidence indeed. Finding something like “Made by God, who’s word is the Bible” written in every different language (past, present, and future) on the top of every mountain and on the bottom of every sea would also convince me. Or maybe the same thing written across the face of the moon in a different language each night would work. Being able to directly interact with God; ask question, get answers would be more evidence. Or how about everyone being born with a different book of the Bible memorized. That would be more evidence and it would ensure that no translation mistakes never make their way into the Bible. Another effective method would be to have every person dream a different Bible story time they sleep.
The possibilities are endless, since the Bible-God is all powerful. If we found any evidence like that described above, I would be convinced and convert immediately (if necessary, it depends on whether the ‘doctrine of eternal security’ is valid. It would be nice to be able to ask God).
April 20th, 2007 at 12:41 pm
AJ
hello, I know the question was directed to Sid, but if the Biblical God were real the Jews would be his “chosen people”. This would be directly contrary to the obvious fact that the Jews have spent most of their time as a culture getting basicly kicked around by other cultures.
Unless you contend that this is what their god chose for them, bringing up all kinds of moral issues that I think we’d agree are going to end in either:
A:God’s a dick and didn’t keep his promise to the Jews
or
B:God is abusive to his chosen (there is proof of this in the whole original sin and sacrificial son myths) basicly, still a dick
I’m kinda suprised you wouldn’t see the problem that lies in the specifics of the question “if the God of the Bible..” because the god of the bible is very easily proven to be the product of human imagination.
On a side note I’ve always wonderd if that whole “we’re God’s Chosen people” thing isn’t the underlying cause of the problems the Jewish culture has had over time. Kinda the idea of it being easier, and in some ways more fun, to knock someone off a pedastl.
so the fixed question would be:
“If God did create the universe, what type of evidence would you think you would find?”
An completely different question based more on the idea of a Cosmological God or Spinoza’s God, very very different from Biblical God.
From my prospective the problem still resides in the question, same as it would with the flip side “If God didn’t create the universe, what kind of evidence would you find” they both, to me, seem unawnserable because I have no knowledge of the specific attributes diety01 would bestow upon a universe. Even less so how to look for a lack of it.
I applogize for the long post in response to a question not directed at me.
April 20th, 2007 at 11:24 am
Hey Sidfaiwu,
Can I just type Sid? I hate to without asking. :) Anyway, I had someone ask me a question the other day that I didn’t know how to answer. He asked, “If the God of the Bible did create the universe, what type of evidence would you think you would find?” It seemed like a good question. I mean, what type of evidence would convince one to believe. Aside from being present at the time creation or any events of the Bible occurred? And if the beginning matter was spoke into existence by God, then would there be any evidence of such? And then with the Bible, how would you go about authenticating historical manuscripts. It has been done with others hasn’t it? Well, just some new questions I don’t have answers for…
April 20th, 2007 at 10:37 am
Well, I do not disagree with you Sidfaiwu and I did came to the same conclusion early on but out of an old promise, I tried.
I rather not continue as the circle is circle even if you draw it thousands of times, it does not change to square along the way.
I did find it most disappointing that her stance in regards of agnostic/atheist books and presumably it extends to other religions also.
If one is willing to ignore information because it might not be favourable to ones opinions, then one has also closed himself outside the rest of the people. Ivory towers are pretty but the cost of building such edifices is blood and suffering and never the blood or suffering of those who live in the towers.
[rantish]
But it is a deplorable condition, the blindfolded state and pride some people have combined with Christianity.
If you consider the situation as a Christian, the sin of Pride is the worst sin there is. It was the sin that felled Lucifer according to biblical texts, it is the most insidious and also the most interesting when considering the patron demon of pride, Lucifer or Satan, depending what name you want to use.
Therefore any signs of prideful actions and thoughts are those which separate you from the god and put one into the camp with the devil.
So how can a Christian avoid the sin of pride? As claiming to know how to avoid pride is also being prideful.
But as I said before, I do not mind what people believe as long as they do not intrude upon other people. I am happy to say I have friends of various ideological trends and it has enriched my life more than having religion.
April 20th, 2007 at 9:43 am
Hey Jagannath,
I admire your efforts, but I fear that they are futile. My guess is that janine is either a Christian missionary , recent convert of a missionary in a Christian minority country like the Republic of Mauritius, or young. Missionaries tend to be the most self-righteous and recent converts and youth tend to be the most zealous. Either way, janine is not going refine or mature her beliefs any time soon, at least not by listening to nonbelievers.
She considers us inherently evil and apparently worthless other than our potential for conversion. I wouldn’t even be surprised if she considers us less than human. Here are some choice quotes:
“anytime its topics goes against the word of GOd established before the foundations of the earth,its useless to me, as good as a lie.”
i.e. all nonbelievers are liars.
“Shall I further insult your intelligence with references to the bible (old and new testaments), that you dont believe in.”
i.e. all nonbelievers are unintelligent.
“I have not asked any questions because nothing anyone says can convince me otherwise.”
“I dont care…how much “evidence†you bring forth.”
“But i do believe one thing they said (atheists)”
“I am very strong in my beliefs and am not moved by anything anyone says.”
“I dont go around reading agnostic/atheist books or any book for that matter that denies the existence of my Creator God.”
i.e. nonbelievers have nothing valuable to say, even if they have good evidence.
I hope I am wrong about janine, but reading her comments, it’s tough to come to any other conclusion. Not once have I addressed janine directly (sorry Irishthunder) because it is futile to talk to her, at least at her current state of spiritual immaturity. Notice that though I never addressed her comments, she nevertheless responded to what I have said. No doubt this comment will be no different. I will read her comment, as I have all of them, shake my head in dismay, and spend my time with people who value reason.
Good luck!
April 20th, 2007 at 9:38 am
Very touchy today. OK!! Everyone please note my apology to Jagganath for mispelling his name! Sorry Jagganath.Thats all I can do.
I was referring to this specific scripture in Acts “But you shall receive the power of the Holy Ghost coming upon you, and you shall be witnesses unto me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea, and Samaria, and even to the uttermost part of the earth”
But yes Matt and Mark make mention of this.
We preach the gospel, the Holy Spirit does the ‘watering” of the “seed”(the word)that planted. The result of that would be conversion based on the belief of the individual. Mind you sir, God is a gentleman, He doesnt force himself and I dont have the power to force any person to convert. They convert because they have heard and believe.
What is a disciple? A disciple is a follower of Jesus Christ. SO yes i do equate myself with the disciples of old. All those disciples are dead now and if Jesus were only speaking to them,then Christianity should have died with them. COme on!! Whats the problem with us priding ourselves in Christ? Why do you mind? That is a benefit of serving GOD. He lives in you, you carry his presence, his glory. So we pride ourselves in that. NOthing wrong there.
You see God as soooo out there, far away, not mixing with people, people not allowed to touch him. Nonsense. Jesus camw to give us access to God.We can feel Him,speak to Him, cry to Him and by faith we know he hears us. And not only that but he answers.
Yes yes you say all this. Is the bible totally true for you, half true, partly true, not true at all. If its totally true then yes you should refer to it wholeheartedly but if you choose to believe only some things or not at all.What are you doing in it? Unless like Irishthunder you are desperately seeking truth and if so go ahead and search because there you will find all the truth. Thanks for the invite to read agnostic/atheist books…but no thanks. Dont mean to repeat myself but its nonsensical to me.
About Ezekiel- i wanted you to read it to find out about the lower gods. See Ezekiel 28:12-19.So you can know what the bible says about the origin of lower gods. Luke 10:18 speaks testifies to this account in Ezekiel. Isiaih 14:9-16 makes reference to this lower god. Read the account of the prophet Elijah and the priests of Baal. Interesting to see why He is the Most High God. Look at what He did to Pharoah in EGYPT. The bible is full of account of this. Look for words like El Elyon, Elohim.
I am glad you know my stance and my what i use to validate it. I do not intrude. If people dont want to hear something, they will say they are not interested and I will back off. If you were not interested in hearing these kind of comments, you should not have opened this forum because it was very simple to log on and air my views. There is certainly no “no entry” sign.
But hey…it was fun. Enjoy ur weekend. By Monday this site will be “off the chains” with comments.
And since you do read the bible (hey we found common ground at last) Check out these!!
God Most High = El Elyon
the most high god :means “Strongest of the Strong”
Superlative God - surpassing all others
Da4:34 his Dominion is everlasting
(”Dominion” = supreme authority)
Da4:34 “But at the end of that period I, Nebuchadnezzar, raised my eyes toward heaven, and my reason returned to me, and I blessed the Most High and praised and honored Him who lives forever; for His dominion is an everlasting dominion, and His kingdom endures from generation to generation.
Hey Nebuchadnezzar was an atheist too. He was brought down to his knees.
Da4:35 He Does according to His will.
Da4:35 “And all the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing, but He does according to His will in the host of heaven and among the inhabitants of earth; and no one can ward off His hand or say to Him, ‘What hast Thou done?’
No one can ward off His hand-no one can question what God does
God is SOVEREIGN which means GOD IS IN CHARGE OF THE ENTIRE UNIVERSE ALL THE TIME.
Westminster Catechism says that “God from all eternity did, by the most wise & holy counsel of His own will, freely & unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass yet so as thereby neither is God the author of sin”
God is supreme over the host of heaven (includes Satan & demons)and
Da 4:35
Inhabitants of the earth
Da4:37
Those who walk in pride
Da4:37 “Now I Nebuchadnezzar praise, exalt, and honor the King of heaven, for all His works are true and His ways just, and He is able to humble those who walk in pride.”
Oh Shucks, Nebuchadnezzar the atheist/agnostic, heathen…giving praise to the King of Heaven.
———————
Read the stanza below which is omitted from most modern hymnals. Click on the hymn and sing to Him. It will be good for your soul dear suffering saint:
El Elyon does His Will
Where?
In the Host of Heaven.Note that “Host” can be translated “armies” and in context most likely refers to the angelic hosts of heaven, both good and evil - God is in control of both!)
Inhabitants of the earth
Job after suffering calamity that the LORD had permitted (see next row below) came to know God’s sovereignty in a very real and personal way declaring:
“I know that Thou canst do all things, and that no purpose of Thine can be thwarted” Job 42:2
more “mysterious” aspects of God’s sovereignty
“Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and unfathomable His ways! For WHO HAS KNOWN THE MIND OF THE LORD, OR WHO BECAME HIS COUNSELOR? Or WHO HAS FIRST GIVEN TO HIM THAT IT MIGHT BE PAID BACK TO HIM AGAIN? For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. To Him be the glory forever. Amen.” (Ro11:33-36)
My brother PAUL said it best. I wont be coming back to this forum. But to Him who knows all things, I give praise and honour. To my God the Father, who holds everybody’s futures in His hand, be the glory. FOrever and ever and His kingdom shall no no end. HE IS LORD-HALLELUJAH!!
April 20th, 2007 at 8:40 am
Lets assume I would call you a Muslim, would it not irk you? Muslim is a believer as are you so are they the same in your mind? The difference between Jagannath and Jaganath is the same to me.
True there is the so called mandate or Great Commission to go forth and spread Christianity but oddly enough that part of Matthew is missing from the Codex Vaticanus and Codex Sinaiticus. The controversy regarding the wording of the order is too great to know what to believe, even between gospels it differs and only Mark mentions it directly and even then the wording is,
“Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.”
He tells the disciplines to preach the gospel, not to convert them. Only one where the baptizing is specifically mentioned is Matthew and that appeared out of thin air, all the sudden. I rather not even go into the synoptic problem of the whole gospel as that is overly perplexing issue even for professional theologists.
Also the words were said to the disciplines, not to all people. Therefore if you act as a discipline, then you elevate yourself to a position which jesus chose people into. Can your hubris be of such magnitude that you claim to know the minds of god and jesus and you equate yourself to the disciplines?
And that is the point, I try to convey. Believers take upon themselves the roles from the bible, they pride themselves to be equal to the original disciplines or more by following orders set to them.
What brings this lack of humility and respect of your own holy book? Cafeteria faith, not reading the book few times or just getting some info from third hand?
In regards of reading the bible, I do not understand what is so odd about it? I have read quran few times also and other religious texts too. I am not hidebound by my beliefs to ignore other viewpoints, perhaps you should read some agnostic/atheist books.
It is impossible to communicate with people, if you do not know what they think and religious texts are a bridge into the peculiar minds that seem to twist and pervert their own holy texts to their liking.
Also it might be surprise to you but to me, the religious teachings were part of the scholarly curriculum, not any particular religion but a broad view of the major ones.
Besides if I were to use the terminology of an ideology you are unfamiliar with then how there would be any chance of communication, let alone understanding? I know your stance, what you use to validate it and why you keep repeating your mantra. I do not care if you do that as long as you do not intrude uncalled upon people.
Also, I do not recall Ezekiel mentioning anything about the most high god so please do tell the chapter and verse. I know the phrase is mentioned in Genesis, Daniel and Psalms but not to my knowledge in Ezekiel.
April 20th, 2007 at 7:18 am
Nice one Jagganath.
About the spelling thing. I know a doctor in my area with the same name except its spelled with one “g”. But u are just looking for me arent you. You even letting the mispelling of your name be something that irritates you. Whatever.
The definition i quoted is ‘religion’. You know what you dont get what I am saying and I doubt you will ever…at least not today.
I dont force my views on anyone. I merely state them and if people wish to ‘hear’, they hear. Am i going to have to speak about choice again. Ag, mense, come on!
Uhuh…nice one MATT 16:1-16. The first shall be last and the last first.OK God has called, He calls now. Whoever “hears” the call, should answer and HE (God)will show them great and mighty things which they do not know of. Sounds like a good invitation for all you seeking scientists, hey. You get to find out things that you do not know of.
You said “True believers should have no right to interfere with the designs of a god but yet you do by convincing people of god and by claiming to know gods mind with your blessings”
What must I now do if Jesus left a mandate for us to make disciples of all nations. I am onl