While in Germany at Regensburg University, Pope Benedict wanted to explore the historical and philosophical differences between Islam and Christianity, and the relationship between violence and faith. Although he meant well it didn’t go over so smooth. The problems started when he saw it fit to quote Emperor Manual II Paleologos of the Byzantine Empire. I don’t know exactly who that is, but apparently it struck a chord with Muslims worldwide. It goes a little something like this…
Show me just what Muhammad brought that was new and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached.
Now I’m no sure where that ranks on the Islamic Freak-Out-And-Riot Scale, but I’d imagine it’s up there. Maybe not to the level of the Danish cartoons, which sparked global chaos and a few hundred deaths, but up there. The head of the Muslim Brotherhood confirmed that the remarks "aroused the anger of the whole Islamic world".
Now there are two important aspects I’d like comments on. First, is their any truth to what the Pope said? Secondly, are Muslims too irrational and overly violent in their reactions? Actually I’ll add a third. Is the Pope just an evil Emperor?
Thanks again Itanshi for the tip on this one!
UPDATE: Houston, We Have Riots!!!
These were taken in India
Related posts:
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- Nun Slain, Churches Burn–Muslims Demand Sincere Apology
- Pope Discovers Cure For AIDS!
- Pope Vs Islam Cartoons
- Senate Defeats Gay Marriage Ban, Dead Pope Angry
September 15th, 2006 at 12:05 am
“are Muslims too irrational and overly violent in their reactions?”
Does the pope wear a pointy hat?
September 15th, 2006 at 12:22 am
Pope: Muslims are violent.
Muslims: How dare you call us violent. We shall kill 1000 infidels for every freckle on the pope’s ass for calling us violent.
September 15th, 2006 at 1:32 am
…are Muslims too irrational and overly violent in their reactions?
I think in all fairness, the violent muslims respond with the best and perhaps only tool they have: violence. They seem irrational to us, but to each other and other guerilla/rebel/anachist groups they make perfect sense. This is hardly reason for those of us in the western world to look at them condescendingly - we make perfect sense to each other. Society is relative, the norm is relative, the environment you grow up in is paramount to your personality.
Plenty of liberal and non-violent muslims abound I’m sure, our friend Muhammed whom answered some questions about islam is a great example.
We need less pointing-the-finger and spot-the-faults and more understanding and tolerance I think. Muslim people are just people who follow a different faith.
September 15th, 2006 at 2:36 am
“Show me just what Muhammad brought that was new and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached.”
Yes, well of course you can say that. Christianity never did anything like that. The crusades were just to defend some land that was allready ours.
September 15th, 2006 at 3:15 am
“are Muslims too irrational and overly violent in their reactions?”
The people who actually blow up busses and kill because of some cartoon are just using Islam for their benifit and as an excuse,no muslim i know will ever approve bombing and killing.
September 15th, 2006 at 4:01 am
> First, is their any truth to what the Pope said?
The pope was quoting, and as such, the nature of the quote needs to be taken in context. From TFA:
“Benedict said “I quote” twice to stress the words were not his and added that violence was “incompatible with the nature of God and the nature of the soul”.
This would indicate it was a quote that was not necessarily compatible with his own point of view, in which case the comment is being blown ridiculously out of proportion.
Secondly, are Muslims too irrational and overly violent in their reactions?
As a relativist, I find nothing wrong at a theoretical level with violence. If one society deems it ok, then it is ok within that society, it might not be in others. It would be wrong to judge someone from a different society for this reason.
Actually I’ll add a third. Is the Pope just an evil Emperor?
As with all emperors, how we view them in history depends on how successful they are at taking over the continent/world/galaxy/universe. Making lightning appear from your hands is also important obviously :)
Dave
September 15th, 2006 at 5:00 am
For all those who say “Different societies, different norms. Violence should be accepted there.” I disagree.
The world is shrinking at increasing speed, different societies are becoming one society, the human race will soon be ONE society(internet anybody?) I personally see the problem as the following: Islamic imams(the ones giving lectures in the mosque) say one thing almost every week on friday “America is evil, we must fight them, death to the infidel opressors.”
Wether it is true that the usa is opressing other countries is another debate, but for gods sake, considering lebanon’s attacks on israel a victory is completly crazy. israel lost less than a hundred men(citizens/soldiers) and lebanon lost over 1100. Who is mad enough to get into a war with brute force without getting some technology/organization to stand up to the enemy? Obviously, people who think that God(or any other Deity) is fighting on their side do.
Here comes the violent part, “We are right, and for the love of our god we must show the word that we are right, if they will not see it we will kill them”
Is this limited to islam? theoretically it isn’t, but practically most other religions don’t seem to say “we must go back to the old ways” thus having the parents more focused on teaching the children “good” religion than telling them that there is more than one solar system around(i had a fight about that in my islamic junior high, and even the teacher thought there is only one sun in every galaxy!)
In my opinion, Violence disappears when you have more effective ways to express yourself. In the islamic world bullies are very common, and it is bullies who turn into extremists/fundamentalists because it gives them some kind of higher social level.
Conclusion: give people something to compete with other than violence and many of them will do so, geeks compete who writes the best virus, nerds who solves an 5th degree equation first, jocks compete in sports and getting the hottest girlfriends. What do fundamentalists compete in? making those f***ing infidels see the light of $deity, often through violence if they feel that their religion is opressed(because they don’t know other ways).
Sorry for making it so long, but studying for a math exam for a week makes you rejoice in writing some human understandable sentences.
September 15th, 2006 at 6:46 am
Sorry, must disagree with what seems like a very “fox news” point of view.
> For all those who say “Different societies, different norms. Violence should be accepted there.†I disagree.
You miss my point. Violence exists in all societies, whether it be religious fanaticism, alcohol induced, poverty related, nationalist fervor or whatever. It is part of the natural human psyche. What we must avoid doing is judging people in other societies based on our view of what are legitimate reasons to use violence, because they have different reasons which we dont understand.
> Islamic imams(the ones giving lectures in the mosque) say one thing almost every week on friday “America is evil, we must fight them, death to the infidel opressors.â€
RIDICULOUS. I accept that there are some like that, but there are many more who are decent upstanding people who believe strongly in their faith - want to make the world a better place and (as they see it) prepare people for an eternity with God.
> Wether it is true that the usa is opressing other countries is another debate.
I see it as a core issue of the entire point. America, with its fundamentalist leader, is trying to inflict its personal agenda on other people around the world through violence. Just because they have bigger guns doesnt mean it’s any more legitimate an approach than others struggling against America’s hegemony.
> considering lebanon’s attacks on israel a victory is completly crazy. israel lost less than a hundred men(citizens/soldiers) and lebanon lost over 1100.
Again, numbers arent particularly relevant. What’s important is the victory of ideaology. Isreal killed a whole bunch of civilians, and failed in their main objective in returning their two captured soldiers and destroying Hezbullah. Hezbullah succeeded in that they caused significant military casualties, held on to their prisoners and manipulated world opinion to force israel to cease their campaign.
In Iraq, close on 3000 us soldiers have died, with many tens or possibly hundreds of thousands of Iraqis have died. America is still a long way from winning the war though, and is in fact inching towards defeat. Again, a victory for the ideaology (whether you agree with the ideaology or not is irrelevant)
> Violence disappears when you have more effective ways to express yourself.
I think this is incredibly important. Developing ways to express yourself is predicated on education, and education also tends to leads towards intercultural understanding. Education is also critical to developing wealth, and wealthy people dont like going to fight wars. In short, education is key to solving the societal schism.
Dave
September 15th, 2006 at 7:22 am
Sadly, it seems we live in a world where the Muslims can launch their tirades of angst and detritus - citing Jihad and death to all westerners - and that’s ok… As soon as the West says anything to offend them however.. Its a different story.
I say to hell with them - let them get all shitty about it - maybe they will actually come out and fight us like warriors for once instead of the cowardly terrorist tactics they have used to date.
September 15th, 2006 at 8:17 am
> fight us like warriors for once instead of the cowardly terrorist tactics
So you think the guys with ak47s and grenade launchers should take on f16s, long range missiles and satellite based targetting? Just because they are less well equipped doesnt make them stupid.
terrorist tactics: tactics used when your military is unable to stand up to that of your opponents.
Dave
September 15th, 2006 at 9:32 am
Is the Pope just an evil emperor?
It depends on your measuring stick. If you measure him by Christian values, he’s really good. If you measure his morality by the number of humans his actions have harmed, he’s a vicious tyrant.
Among his misdeeds: condemning condom usage intensifying African AIDS; demanding that unwanted pregnancies not be aborted; endorsing prejudice against homosexuality; pissing off Muslims, which could get a lot of us killed; hating on life-saving science; and misleading the children into his dangerous faith-based rather than evidence-based way of thinking.
Good or evil? He’s somewhere in the middle. He means well, but he is stupid. He thinks hurting these people is an unfortunate byproduct of making his god happy.
September 15th, 2006 at 9:38 am
Not really an un-expected reaction from certain groups.
At least he is not calling for a holy war on all easterners and asking God to wipe Iran from the face of the earth.
September 15th, 2006 at 9:50 am
> terrorist tactics: tactics used when your military is unable to stand up to that of your opponents.
0.o
No - terrorist tactics is for cowards and those who are weak and cannot stand up against a conventional army. They rely on us following the rules while they flaunt them and specifically target innocents.
You are in denial if you think otherwise.
September 15th, 2006 at 10:45 am
> No - terrorist tactics is for cowards and those who are weak and cannot stand up against a conventional army.
As with sadly, you insist on calling those who blow themselves up cowards or other ignorant phrases. Killing onesself goes against the most basic psychological instincts that each of us posesses from birth, and overcoming that fear of death takes a lot more than “cowardice”. But instead of trying to understand the sociological conditions that cause these people to commit acts contrary to their very being, you simply degrade them, meaning that you will never stop causing the situations that create such hatred against the west. The solution lies in creating a world where the top nations actually deal in a fair and equitable way with all people, no matter their race, sex or religious persuasion.
> They rely on us following the rules
Us???
“us” as in the “us” that holds people for years without trial in guantanemo bay? “us” as in “us” who use white phosphorus in civilian areas? “us” as in “us” who stand idly by while Israel cluster bombs civilian areas in the mostly christian lebanon? “us” who ignores a thousand other violations of international treaties all while lapping up democracy tv ™?
I live in the west, I grew up with the ideaology of fairness and equality, but I have no interest in being part of your “us”. I want a world where every person, no matter where they were born or what colour or sex they have has an equal chance to live their lives to the utmost. And that doesnt come from selectively applying the values we claim as our most basic rights.
Dave
September 15th, 2006 at 10:50 am
Ouch:
play some RTS for god’s sake. i just finished a nice round of StarCraft which i won by hijacking the battle cruisers which my economically superior enemy built. is that war or terror? of course in the game the guys in the airplane don’t complain, but in real life this would be terrorism.
Skyclad:
>Violence exists in all societies, whether it be
>religious fanaticism, alcohol induced, poverty related, nationalist fervor or whatever. It is part of the
>natural human psyche. What we must avoid doing is
> judging people in other societies based on our view of
>what are legitimate reasons to use violence, because
> they have different reasons which we dont understand.
Violence is part of human nature? hell yes!
but my point was, we should not allow violence to be portraied as something good.
>RIDICULOUS. I accept that there are some like that, but
>there are many more who are decent upstanding people who
> believe strongly in their faith - want to make the
>world a better place and (as they see it) prepare people
> for an eternity with God.
Sorry that i have to say this, but i used to frequent mosques here in israel, 9 out of 10 times they used to say something like this about some country(usually usa or israel.) also, islamic TV in the middle east is full with things like this.
>Just because they have bigger guns doesnt mean it’s any
>more legitimate an approach than others struggling
>against America’s hegemony.
struggle people, and fight till the very end, but only if you CAN win the game! don’t get into a fight you have no chance of winning. miss this fight, prepare better next time and make a difference then!
>Hezbullah succeeded in that they caused significant
>military casualties, held on to their prisoners and
>manipulated world opinion to force israel to cease their
>campaign.
True, but don’t call it a victory! what i saw was a massacre(spelling?) that israel did in lebanon. Calling whatever happened there in the end a victory kinda takes the reality out of it in order to make Hezbollah look stronger.
>I think this is incredibly important. Developing ways to
>express yourself is predicated on education, and
>education also tends to leads towards intercultural
>understanding. Education is also critical to developing
>wealth, and wealthy people dont like going to fight
>wars. In short, education is key to solving the societal
>schism.
That was my point, couldn’t have said it any better:D
September 15th, 2006 at 12:26 pm
> play some RTS for god’s sake. i just finished a nice round of StarCraft which i won by hijacking the battle cruisers which my economically superior enemy built.
Was all up for some dawn of war earlier, but my victim left the office early. Has to play some quake instead.
> True, but don’t call it a victory! what i saw was a massacre that israel did in lebanon.
Sorry. What I was referring to as “victory” was the achievement of the goals of the participating sides in the conflict. Israel failed to achieve its goals, Hezbollah were more successful. The fact that many people died is one of the unfortunate realities of war.
September 15th, 2006 at 3:57 pm
@sadly
i completely agree. once again, its only the politically correct elements in the western societies that are going to give this any thought. for once, the pope isnt that far from the truth. look at the natality rate of the muslim world. thats how they can get away with fighting a technologicaly superior enemy. but that is also how they are going to run us all over. i consider all religion to be an afront and a danger to the civilized world, and a great danger to all of us. but by far on TOP of that list is definitely islam. they are the most aggresive, they breed the quickest, and they want to change the way we live. i have seen it first hand in the former yugoslavia (parts of which are still a safe haven for militant idiots from the arab world), and its happened all over the world (serbia and kosovo, checnya, israel etc.) the western world is top dog right now. muslim world needs to either stop being a danger to the top dog or be eaten. no other way. whether that is just or not, NOONE CARES!!! and to all the freaks in the USA, those who want to further degrade our educational system: look at the muslims… that is how were gonna be in near future if our kids start learning fairy tales in school…
September 15th, 2006 at 4:04 pm
what a load of crap! I was told as a kid that truth hurts. It sure does fella! What have the muslims done to ‘assist’ our modern society. Absolutely nothing. They benifit from our advanced technology, use it to abuse the so called infidels and expect us (in the west) to tolerate their primitive, voilant (the pope is this time correct) and backward thinking philosophy. I believe that its not in the human gene to be voilant, however if there ever was a catalyst to reverse this non-human attribute then surely ANY sort of religion would encourage this. Look at human history, this has been proven time and time again. Unfortunately it will continue. “Fight the good fight with all thy might” I was forced to sing as a kid in a christian society, but who can tell me what the “good fight” is. I still believe in the sincerity of mankind but without religion in any form. Lennons “Imagine” elaborates this fact.
September 15th, 2006 at 4:32 pm
Mayhaps the pope’s comments will incite a riot on the religious freaks message boards.
I agree that education is the long term solution. Things are bound to change anyway, because it’s going to be harder as time passes to be isolated and therefore hateful of the outside world. But it’s going to take a long, long time. Education is one of the major things we can invest in to make this happen faster.
September 16th, 2006 at 8:54 am
Let’s hope that the Muslims will attack the Catholics, maybe fly a plane into the Vatican. And Catholics fly a plane into Mecca. And they both go at it in one Holy Jihad. If both sides kill each other off, then the world would be better off. Two birds with one stone. Both groups are full of themselves, close minded and insecure. Threatened by reality and logical thinking. They both need to be eradicated off the face of the planet. It’s a blessing in disguise if the Pope’s ignorant superiority complex triggers conflict between the two “great” (not) religions. So come on you diaper heads, the Pope’s insulted your people, time to retaliate. I don’t think the Pope mobile is armoured plated. That would be glorious television. And if his God exists and yours don’t, then you won’t be successful
September 16th, 2006 at 6:20 pm
Dave - I’d be very happy if all the folk like yourself left “our” society and moved to Asia - let me know just how welcoming your muslim friends there are and send me a postcode once youve assimilated…
Good luck.
September 16th, 2006 at 10:20 pm
What have the muslims done to ‘assist’ our modern society. Absolutely nothing. They benifit from our advanced technology, use it to abuse the so called infidels and expect us (in the west) to tolerate their primitive, voilant (the pope is this time correct) and backward thinking philosophy.
Whoa whoa whoa! Now that’s some close mided mentality there Dave… after all what have you ever done to assist modern society? The arab world gave us our number system lets not forget, and many practicing muslims are found in universities all over the world.
Point being, just because they’re not in the Middle East doesn’t mean they’re not muslim. Take a walk down to your nearest university and have a look at all the muslim students and lecturers there - chances are you won’t even recognise them. Now look at the statistics for violent muggings, home robberies, murder, rape, assault etc. for American cities. They’re not too inspiring.
I believe that its not in the human gene to be voilant
Well that’s a moot point. What you belive and what is actually true are not necissarily the same. What is fact however, is that the majority of human civilizations studied so far have in some form or another violence.
Agony said it well:
geeks compete who writes the best virus, nerds who solves an 5th degree equation first, jocks compete in sports and getting the hottest girlfriends. What do fundamentalists compete in? making those f***ing infidels see the light of $deity, often through violence if they feel that their religion is opressed (because they don’t know other ways).
Violence comes in many forms. You use the one which best suits you at the time.
From Agony and Skyclad:
I think this is incredibly important. Developing ways to express yourself is predicated on education, and education also tends to leads towards intercultural understanding. Education is also critical to developing wealth, and wealthy people dont like going to fight
wars. In short, education is key to solving the societal
schism
Don’t blame the uneducated when they fail to act like an educated person.
September 16th, 2006 at 10:22 pm
As the add on to above - we in the west usually receive free education. As a further add on, look at all the people who take that for granted.
September 17th, 2006 at 2:47 am
Agnostic,
Thank you for what you said, I don’t know what’s your religion, but it really makes me happy to see that there is American has menatlity as yours, not like Mr.Dave who might be didn’t read one book nor watch any news other than Fox news.
The bad thing in what the pope said that he quote the empror and he didn’t quote what the other guy answered the empror.
The other issue Islam didn’t spread by viloence, for example Indonsia and Mylsia and countries in Africa, better example that Islam is the fastes spread in USA its self.
For who ever that the Muslims is unsecure, that’s not true, we beleive in god, so we have solid ground, we know if we suffered unjust in this life, we will relize the justice in the next life.
Thank god for our values and for our respect even for prophets like Jesus and Moses, we can’t say such thing about jesus or any other prophet, because we beleive in them.
I thank god every day for being Muslim, for what I know about Islam, and if Islam would encourage on vilonce, I wouldn’t be Muslim. I hope every one read about prophet Muhammed before he say ignorant things.
Thank you to who ever defend Islam and Muslims and for who that the don’t like Islam, I hope god forgive and guide you to the truth.
September 17th, 2006 at 6:00 am
Let’s examine the reality (at least the way I see it):
Fact #1: Not all Muslims are terrorists.
Fact #2: 99.9% of the terrorist attacks on this planet are being made by Muslims.
Am I wrong?
September 17th, 2006 at 10:22 am
> Fact #2: 99.9% of the terrorist attacks on this planet are being made by Muslims.
Am I wrong?
Yes, for pretty much any definition of the word terrorist you wish to apply.
September 17th, 2006 at 11:30 am
Neuclar attack on Japan, I don’t think it’s terrorist attack, killing 200 thousands people of civilians wasn’t terrorist attack, putting african in slavery was so civilized, USA killing, raping and torturing Iraqi and secret prisons all over the world not terroirsm.
Please look at all these facts and then define the terroirsm.
September 17th, 2006 at 11:49 am
> Please look at all these facts and then define the terroirsm.
Read a fantastic book by Phil Rees called “Dining with Terrorists”, and realise the use of the word “terrorism” is quite simply a propaganda tool.
September 17th, 2006 at 1:11 pm
Answer on #24.
That’s rather an insult ‘not reading a book’ or getting my info from fox news.(Not receivable in Berlin). I don’t know how old you are,Mohammed, but I’m pushing 60 and my view of the world is based on what I see, what I feel, what I’ve experienced, what I am allowed to say and reading the good books that I haven’t supposed to have read. Fact is, you are right, there are good muslims as much as there are good christians etc. but history has shown me, repeatedly, that
the bloodiest human carnage has its roots in some sort of faith. You cannot deny that. It’s strange that in those parts of the world where religion plays a minor role in everyday life e.g. Australia, Canada, Scandanavia everything appears to be, compared to the middle east, very quiet. Or have I missed something? Keep writing old son, it’s an interesting website.
September 17th, 2006 at 1:29 pm
All the occupition that happened in the 19th century and 20th century was from christian to Muslims, and what about the German them self, they were supporting Hetler, or did you forget that?, ever country and every religion has its upsets, the only thing that Islam was huge civilization, Islam didn’t blame people for what they doing, Islam freed people from slavery, you can read what was going on in Egypt before Islam, and what Islam did to free this people from the Roman empire, and Islam gave the Christian the freedom to stay in Egypt and be Christians, and you can apply that on all the nations on the ME. So please don’t be close minded and try to understand, that we have values and the west trying hard to change it, we can’t change some of our values, we have a lot of things are going on wrong in ME but we are trying to change and we will change, but nobody from outside will change us, we are not going to follow you non existence values( you might name it values).
The weird thing that the west think that they have values, which I don’t see it, when somebosy sleeps with women and he does what ever he wants, where are the values in that, when the woman walking naked in the beaches, where are the values in that, when men kissing and marrying another man, where the heck are the values, and you call it freedom. I don’t like this kind of freedom and I don’t want. I want the freedom of opinion, that’s the only thing I want to take from the west.
September 17th, 2006 at 1:55 pm
“The weird thing that the west think that they have values, which I don’t see it, when somebosy sleeps with women and he does what ever he wants, where are the values in that, when the woman walking naked in the beaches, where are the values in that, when men kissing and marrying another man, where the heck are the values, and you call it freedom. I don’t like this kind of freedom and I don’t want. I want the freedom of opinion, that’s the only thing I want to take from the west.”
Mohamed, you are taking aspects of 2 different cultures of the west. One, backwards religious culture who think they own everything and want to force their values on others, and the other who encourage freedom for everyoneand don’t claim to have superior values or morality and don’t force their beliefs on anyone.
None of those things you mentioned are universally accepted as being wrong. Only the religious psychos hate the freedom we have to do those things, and want to force their superstitions on everyone else.
In summation, those of us claiming to have “values” don’t do those things, and those of us that don’t buy into your outdated religious belief systems have the freedom to do them if we want. I’m not pointing any fingers at muslims specifically. I think christianity, judaism, and every other organized religion is just as oppressive, and wrong.
September 17th, 2006 at 2:13 pm
I’m not asking you to buy my ideas, just don’t talk about values and you have none, that tone that we hear on TV, Americans keep saying, they are attacking our values, what Muslims want just to leave them alnoe, and stop running behind the oil, we don’t want your values, keep it to your self, just leave us alone, get out of ME, stop killing Muslims, that’s all what we want, we never cared about what you name values.
We have the freedom to believe in what ever we want even if you think it’s outdated, like you say.
Stop dealing with double standered, and homosexuality is not accepted universly, we don’t accept it, and we will never accept it, and your vlaues is not acceptable, Islam is going to stay strong no matter what the west does, and we are going to keep our values.
September 17th, 2006 at 2:16 pm
“Stop dealing with double standered, and homosexuality is not accepted universly, we don’t accept it, and we will never accept it, and your vlaues is not acceptable, Islam is going to stay strong no matter what the west does, and we are going to keep our values.”
Im not talking double standards, I am an American who has no “values” and despises religion, and I said that homosexuality is not universally Hated, not accept, which is true. Not everyone in the world is a bigot.
September 17th, 2006 at 2:20 pm
“I’m not asking you to buy my ideas, just don’t talk about values and you have none, that tone that we hear on TV, Americans keep saying, they are attacking our values, what Muslims want just to leave them alnoe, and stop running behind the oil, we don’t want your values, keep it to your self, just leave us alone, get out of ME, stop killing Muslims, that’s all what we want, we never cared about what you name values.”
It’s people like me that protest the religious, muslim hating, american machine, because we have the freedom to do so. America will not always be in the hands of idiots like it is now. When the democrats win the next election, American oppression will start changing for the better.
September 17th, 2006 at 2:23 pm
…and for the last time, I’m not talking about the Middle East or Muslims, I’m talking about religious people of all faiths, EVERYWHERE. It’s all wrong.
September 17th, 2006 at 2:26 pm
@29 > I don’t like this kind of freedom and I don’t want.
You either have freedom to express yourself as you wish or you dont - there is no middle ground.
If women want the freedom to wear what they want, work where they want and live their lives as they want, so be it. Let god judge them if you think they are wrong.
If 2 men want to marry, so be it. I cant say I understand that decision, but it doesn’t affect me, so let god judge them.
If you want the freedom of opinion, then you have to respect other people’s right to the same. If their opinion is wrong you still have to let them have it - God will judge them.
> when somebody sleeps with women and he does what ever he wants, where are the values in that,
Without quoting religious concepts or mantra, can you tell me what exactly is wrong with sleeping with someone (outside of marriage, presuming that is what you meant)?
September 17th, 2006 at 2:32 pm
You destro the whole soceity by doing that, you get children out of this relationship, they have no rights, becaus they don’t who the father, and they are psyclogigly wreck, so you build a generation from weak people, you don’t gove the children the protection they need, and that’s the next generation that you need to be health soceity. I know some people will think that I’m crazy, but from what I see that America treat women like it has no values, it’s just created to be slept with, and I’m seeing every day, the value of the woman in USA is sub zero.
September 17th, 2006 at 2:42 pm
This is an interesting issue from a purely Christian theological point of view as well. I am not religious myself at all, and my own sympathies would lie with the idea that the reactions to the Pope’s obviously (intentionally?) misunderstood, rather abstract discussion are a really good test of whether the quotation is right. That is, by burning churches and killing nuns in response, the Muslims prove that indeed, they are violent.
Now, if I were the Pope, however, my own Christianity would be VERY cautious about making statements that I will know are inflammatory and will cause deaths and suffering in the hands of a bunch of violent idiots. This is because as a Christian, I would be very cautious about sinning through hubris… it would not be a sufficient excuse for me that “they are the ones who are being violent, so the guilt lies with them for not getting the point”. It will, nevertheless, cause evil in the world, and I would be put to better use through not seeking confrontation simply because of my righteousness. I should just let God deal with those who act against his will, and not act as the judge myself.
September 17th, 2006 at 2:43 pm
I’m sure many woman will find your argument about us treating woman like they were being “created to be slept with” offensive. Women are people just like men, no different. They have the freedom to become promiscuous just as men do, and they have the freedom to be prudes too. They can hold any position a man can hold, or be just as sleazy. Everything woman do in this country is their own choice. If they want to have a little fun in their youth, who am I to stop them? No one in America forces women to go around dressing sleezy and sleeping around… some do it of their own free will, and some don’t.
Also, I used to live with my homosexual mother and her partner, and I am not a psycological wreck. Parents sexuality does not determine how well adjusted children turn out… but the care and attention parents give their children does. If gay parents can do just as good a job as straight parents, why stop them?
September 17th, 2006 at 2:46 pm
I didn’t try to say offensive words about women, I tried to find a word without saying bad word, I don’t like to say bad words.
September 17th, 2006 at 2:47 pm
Furthermore, I know many people who grew up with gay parents, and wound up very successful, and I know many people who had straight parents who never divorced, who turned out to be big failures, crackheads, and white trash.
September 17th, 2006 at 2:48 pm
I’m sure you mean well, but you have to understand that in a society where woman are truly equal, they have the freedom to do as they please, and there will always be those who choose to be sex objects. Some men choose to live this way too.
September 17th, 2006 at 2:57 pm
All I can say, god create Adam and Eve, he didn’t create Adam1 ans Adam2. We cam from different culture, I know we are not going to agree on some issues.
September 17th, 2006 at 3:01 pm
haha, the standard red neck saying in America is “god created Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve” and in the part of America I come from, is usually looked down upon.
September 17th, 2006 at 3:09 pm
It’s funny, I live in USA, but I didn’t know such expression exists:).
September 17th, 2006 at 4:02 pm
> All I can say, god create Adam and Eve, he didn’t create Adam1 and Adam2.
And all I can say is we evolved through a process of natural selection. Do I deserve to go to hell?
September 17th, 2006 at 4:14 pm
I can’t judge, it’s not my job, it’s god’s job. I’m the same like you, I will be judged with my doing, so I can’t judge, and the different between some one like me and Usama Bin Laden, Bin Laden judged people even Muslims, if they are really Muslims or not.
I can’t take this responsiblity to judge somebody, I could be going to hell, it doesn’t matter if I’m Muslim or not, it’s all about my doings.
September 17th, 2006 at 8:36 pm
Woot!
So, quick recapitulation:
1 - Pope maybe meant well, maybe not, still blundered.
2 - People should have the freedom to do as they wish, but should respect that same freedom in others, thus limiting their own.
3 - Whatever you do, you are screwed. God will see to it.
4 - Almost every major (and minor) conflic resulting in multiple deaths are caused by religious ideology.
5 - Every god(s)-possesing religions say God will be the last, utmost and only judge of human souls, but they still insist on judging fidels, infidels, and everyone in sight.
6 - For some reason, even if atheism is the most sensible, most easily belivable and logical choice, it is still the most despised ‘way of thinking/living’ around the world…
(think we could get special tax exemption as a despised minority?)
September 17th, 2006 at 10:05 pm
Dear friends, brothers, sisters, neighbors, coworkers & Loves of my life,
I usually refrain from writing unsolicited editorials, but permit me just one this year which I think will be very obvious and terribly funny — if not so horribly evil.
You probably heard how the Pope quoted Emperor Manual II Paleologos of the Byzantine Empire:
“Show me just what Mohammed brought that was new and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached.”
The response from the Muslim community [and I haven't heard any "good" Muslims say otherwise], was one of riots in retaliation, not to the Pope’s words, but from his quote of an Emperior. While the Pope gave the polite apology of “I am sorry that you are offended”.
He should have said, “Do not your riots prove my point?”
Eugene C. Smith
my prophet’s heart could not resist a response.
September 18th, 2006 at 1:00 am
Eugene,
When American talks about freedom, they should talk about respecting people feeling, Muslims never said such things about Jesus nor Moses, we always respect prophets.
Let me tell you something else, if we Muslims in Egypt said such thing in Egypt about Jesus(which it will never happen), the Christian in Egypt will commit vilonece and I’m pretty sure of that, but for las time we will never do it, we beleive in Jesus as prophet.
The other thing, can the pope say that about Moses and about the Jews, just have the courage and tell, what would happen to the pope, he might end in the prison, because he is anti-sematic.
Please don’t stick the vilonce to Islam, if somebody commits violence, it’s just because they see how the pope try to blind people, and he is talking about prophet Mohamed. He will never be 1 of trillion of prophet Mohamed, and he dares to talk about him.
Could he talk about president Bush and his crimes in Iraq, or Israel in Lebanon, sure enough he can’t other wise he would be in one of this secret prisons for Bush.
September 18th, 2006 at 3:26 am
Well, now the Pope has issued a personal apology, and the violence does not look like abating. It saddens me to think that every time something like this happens, I lose some of my respect for people of the muslim faith.
If Islam wants to be accepted as a peaceful religion, then for God’s sake prove it.
Dave
September 18th, 2006 at 6:11 am
Islam claims to be peaceful, but it comes nowhere close to the practice of peace by Buddhists. Remember back in early 2003 when the Taliban destroyed the 1000 year old giant statues of the Buddha with rockets? That action surely is more offensive to a Buddhist than any cartoon or misguided quote directed at Muslims. How did the Buddhists in the world respond? They practiced what they preached. Absolutely no violence or even an angry word. No response in fact. The “art” community had a greater outcry at the destruction of those world historical art. In fact the Buddhists demonstrated the TRUTH of their beliefs by their non action. For one, the IMPERMANANCE of all things. Whether by rockets in 10 minutes or by erosion in 20,000 years, those statues will eventually disappear. So getting upset at the destruction would be useless. Did any Buddhists destroy mosques throughout the world in retaliation? Of course not, they practice NONVIOLENCE. And nothing demonstrated KARMA better than what happened to the Taliban afterwards. They destroyed those statues because they wanted a pure Islamic state in Afghanistan, but by the end of the year, they were invaded by American infidels and overthrown. Now that is karma in action!
So for all you Muslims continually saying that Islam is a religion of peace, your standards need to be raised to a higer level. Until you can respond with “non-violent action” or even more difficult, NOT TO RESPOND AT ALL to any perceived insults directed at you or your religion, you cannot claim to be a religion of peace.
Maybe instead of praying five times a day, you should use one of those sessions to sit on your butts in Buddhist meditation, look within to determine why you are so thin-skinned and easily provoked.
Seeing the reactions to those cartoons and the Pope’s quotes, I cannot imagine what the response would be if somebody took a rocket to a statue of Mohammed, luckily he was wise enough to say no image of himself is allowed.
September 18th, 2006 at 10:59 am
“The other thing, can the pope say that about Moses and about the Jews, just have the courage and tell, what would happen to the pope, he might end in the prison, because he is anti-sematic.”
It would be in bad taste just like his statement about muslims, but he would never get sent to jail for stating his opinion. There are no laws against being anti-sematic, and jews would not riot and kill people. They would most likely demand an apology, and protest peacefully.
I don’t know the reason for this, but I’m sure it’s not the teaching of the islam religion itself. It’s probably just a cultural thing. Some people don’t understand or respect freedom of speech and peaceful protest, and a lot of them happen to be muslims.
September 18th, 2006 at 11:12 am
“Please don’t stick the vilonce to Islam, if somebody commits violence, it’s just because they see how the pope try to blind people, and he is talking about prophet Mohamed. He will never be 1 of trillion of prophet Mohamed, and he dares to talk about him.
Could he talk about president Bush and his crimes in Iraq, or Israel in Lebanon, sure enough he can’t other wise he would be in one of this secret prisons for Bush.”
Bush is one of these people. His actions are indeed disgraceful. I’m not gonna defend him… his approval rating is very low. He is in general a terrible human being.
One thing I will mention though, is that you, who claim to be a liberal muslim, seem to get very agitated at the prospect of someone of another faith talking about mohamed/islam. Why? People stating opinions, however wrong, aren’t hurting anyone. You can state your opinions too. If the pope said something like “Atheists are evil,” I would not get angry. I’d just remember that the pope is a retard, and anyone who actually believes him is equally ignorant. I may state my opinion, and I may protest peacefully, but I certainly wouldn’t go around killing catholics, because of their misguided views.
September 18th, 2006 at 11:23 am
What I find that is funny is that muslims say it is a religion that spreads peace in the world. Yet there are a growing number of muslims who are willing to kill for there beliefs.
The quran is littered contaversial stuff, that is justified with acceptable stuff.
Its like saying you can kill someone but its got to be for the right reason.
The thing is you still killed someone for whatever opinion or reason you can think of. What difference does it make whether you say alla is good or anything your still going to hell.
I’m obviously talking about suicide bombing and the thoery behind this. If you have any common sense, this will look a bit strange thing to find in a book that is all about peace. Hey may be this is a clue, to unravelling the consiracy thoery behind to what the quran’s really saying.
once you separated the means with the justification you can see what the pope is on about,
”islam is a faith spread by the sword” - Well the way muslims are tort you must be a believe in alla as your god and only him. Or you are put in one group as an unbeliever, in which case you shall be killed for being an infidel to god.
Don’t you think responding in a way of violence is proving the pope’s statement true. That spreading this pyschology is a controlling fear, in which case if you are living in a muslim country will have to conform to.
Lets hope that immration don’t get any worse or we will be all wearing bukkas
Q: Why is there so many favours to islam, (mild, modarate or spicy hot!!! only joking!!
The answer lies when you look at all translations and versions of the quran. The message remains the same but the wording is changed. If you want to see what lies under cleverly written modarate text, then bite the chilli and look at what the extreme translations say. This stuff is what the pope is on about, there is evil in quran. Once you found stuff then think to yourself, if this religon is all about peace then why is this stuff here!!!! maybe your on the wrong side.
I tell you why, because god is love and peace and not to indice fear and hatred to others, so further more this evil stuff is outside the true nature of god.
September 18th, 2006 at 11:37 am
“I tell you why, because god is love and peace and not to indice fear and hatred to others, so further more this evil stuff is outside the true nature of god.”
I’ll tell you why, because humans are violent animals that like to feel special, and ignorance will forever reign supreme on this dust ball we know as a planet.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a15KgyXBX24
September 18th, 2006 at 1:03 pm
The thing about mohammed is evil is untrue, it’s the religion that is evil.
Mohammed was a kind and blessed man, who was a man who became born again and opened a door in his mind for communion with god. This is what is means to be a christian and have jesus living with you at all times. It is only sin that takes us away from god, not with god as he so whats to meet you and help you forfil your destiny in life. One thing the devil couldn’t break is mohammed love for god.
Most people who hear the word sin, are caught up with the whole idea of the way of the catholics used this in a way to control the public. But sin is actually the sprits or demons that come into our lives. though drink, drugs, gamling, etc….
Its that urge you get to want another, many people have a addiction its all part of life, rebelling against the very things that are un-christian. So is the catholics religion controlling the public, well yeah if you are into rebel teenager or someone who don’t like the idea of being maliputlated into a certain way of thinking. But is it surely for the right reasons, just look at the world we live in. You got many people who are high on drugs, doing all sorts of bad things. Yeah, know the types?? If not try leaving your door open without locking next time when you go out, chances are you’ve just missed him, as hes already half way down the road with your TV.
Seriously the religion islam is ultimately evil, but with mohammed, well he’s a person who just liked loved to talk to people about his new found friend, god. It’s the quran that has been altered and is used to control people with its clever wording. God has given us a life full of choices, so why must he be so controlling in what you should do and think. The truth is what comes from inside and your relationship with god and not from any book. Remember It’s religion that is man made to controlling the masses. God just wants you not to sin or blow yourself up. So he can lead you to paradise. How can a man enter paradise by killing someone else. You look at the innocent people died in the world trade building and london bombings, how can you see this will please god. Come on! Can’t see it yet but I could always read the Quran and find the correct justification for this. It is one of those things where you think wheres the catch or the small print. Its inhuman that’s it, what the pope said.
P.S. I don’t like this pope he not in my opinion what I would say is a man of god. Yeah, he looks like the emperor, its uncanny. Maybe he is the antichrist, because to say such a thing would provoke reaction. In his situation, (not mine) you can’t say something like that Maybe that’s the plan.!!!! He is a German!!!. He is surprisingly unwise to give the Muslims another thing to hate now (mmm…hate pope….must kill!!!! Or we’ll take it out on the Christians yeah….hate Christians…..yeah…) Just look at that funny Muslim man who is punching the camera. A bit pissed off wouldn’t you say.
September 18th, 2006 at 2:32 pm
to Mohammad,you don’t dare say any thing about jesus in Egypt,but you dare kill christians?
do you deny the fact that many christians were killed by rasist muslims in Egypt?because if you do,appearently you don’t know how things happen in Egypt.
September 18th, 2006 at 7:43 pm
Arya,
I’m Muslim from Egypt, may be it’s happening now, but it didn’t happen when Islam enterd Egypt, becaue that was the real Muslims are, let’s agree on something, Christian in Egypt is more extreme than Muslims, they are not angels, but I know somehow they aren’t treated well, which I don’t agree with.
Omar bin Elkhatab, one of the friends of the prophets, they offered him to pray in church, and he refused, when they asked him why you didn’t do that? he said I’m afraid that Muslims know in the future that I prayed in this church, so they will destroy it and build mosque. That was from almost 1600 years and he follows the religion and the same Quran, but he know the Islam better than us now, and he followed the real Islam.
And please every body, know that every country and every civilization has upsets, which we are no different, every thing in this world created to change, only god who never changed, I remember the Americans as cowboys, or did you forget how the American soceity started.
A lot of crimes happened along the history, tell me how many happened from Muslims in 2000 years, please read the history and see how the Europen was occupying the world take every nation’s national resource, with unjust and killing people, what about the German, and Hitler. All the German was following Hitler, not all the Muslims following Usama Bin Laden, it might be 2000 or 3000 people with 1 billion people.
I really hate Usama Bin Laden, he made some cowboys dare and talk about Islam like that, that’s your chance, I don’t blame you all to take your chance against Islam.
All I can say, when somebody like the pope say something like that, it’s big deal, that’s invitaion for the rest in the world to fight Islam, he is not an idiot, he knows what’s he doing and he know how many people listen to him and how he affect millions of people, we can say a lot of christianty and, but we keep our mouth shut. Jesus is not son of god and this bible is not right and every body knows it.
September 18th, 2006 at 8:33 pm
Well Mohamed, you managed to get one thing right… Jesus is not the son of God, nor is Mohammed the prophet. You people foolishly follow myths and legends like a kid chasing Santa or the tooth fairy. None of you have ever met Jesus or Mohammed. None of you know someone that has. You are all blindly following a fantasy, and for what I ask?
Keep your religions to yourself and let the rest of us live our joyous lives in peace.
gasmonso
September 18th, 2006 at 10:15 pm
We never said that Muhammed is son of god, he is a guy sent to people, and he is not a myth, nor Jesus is myth, Jesus just prophet sent to people like Moses, they all are prophets deserve respect, people ignoring existence of god, and it’s to easy to see that there is a god. this whole universe run in coonsistent way for reason, the sun shine every day, may be chance, the human being came by chance, and they came in man and women to ger children to mutiply, all by accident, every thing by accident. Can you tell me how many accidents should happen to get this world in that way. all the animales, all this things by accident.
What’s really hard, to beleive in god create all of these things, or to beleive that every thing happen by accident.
God gives examples to people in this live to the reasonable people to think about, not to the people they don’t even scared to think about it.
One day you will know, if it myth or truth, but for sorry this day will be too late to go back and beleive there is god.
We all are going to die, then we will know the truth.
You can beleive or not, it’s your choice, but I have the freedon to defend Islam against cowboys.
September 18th, 2006 at 11:10 pm
“this whole universe run in coonsistent way for reason, the sun shine every day, may be chance, the human being came by chance, and they came in man and women to ger children to mutiply, all by accident, every thing by accident. Can you tell me how many accidents should happen to get this world in that way. all the animales, all this things by accident.”
I suppose you aren’t very familiar with evolutionary theory, but I don’t find it hard to believe at all that human beings are an “accident”.
In the universe there are billions of planets that meet the conditions for supporting carbon based organic life. Is it really that hard to believe that life could evolve on one of them? I find it hard to believe that given the numbers, life wouldn’t happen “by accident”. All life on this planet can be explained naturally by evolution, without the need for a god, and just because you may find it hard to believe, doesn’t mean it’s not perfectly plausible.
As for your arguments about sun shine and the like. For any life form that evolved to adapt to it’s environment, it is hardly a wonder that we should find natural phenominons such as sunlight to be wonderful. I’m sure bats find dark wet caves to be just as spectacular, but it doesn’t mean theres a bat god.
Does believing that humanity wasn’t designed for a purpose make it any less significant?
September 18th, 2006 at 11:17 pm
“We all are going to die, then we will know the truth.”
We are going to die…. that’s it. You can’t “know” anything when you are dead. Even if you believe in souls, which I don’t, but that’s another argument, you have to accept that “knowing” something means nothing more than a pattern of synapses encoded in a flesh vessel. When you die, it is proven that those patterns desintegrate. Even if you have a soul, you don’t “know” anything about your soul before you were born, and you won’t “know” anything when you’re dead.
being dead will be just like it was before you were born, nothingness. I know it can be hard to accept, but it makes much more sense that any religion.
September 19th, 2006 at 12:08 am
Revlution, so we came from Gurilla, I will assume that you are right, where is this creature that get evuloted came from. You know inside your self that didn’t happen from chance, human being never been animal, god blessed the human being and give him the brain to think about it, I can’t beleive that someone has sense of logic think that we came from animal or by accident.
So we came here in the earth, has no purpose, with no god.
Do you know what does it mean if there is no god, mena mess, means I would kill you and don’t care about it any thing, it means that when somebody do unjust for me, nobody would get my right back.
If every body beleived that god exist, we would be better off, because you would think million time before you do smething wrong, we came here for test, all of this life is just test, you do good, you go to heaven, you do bad you go to hell, no matter if you are Muslim, Christian or Jew.
Being dead is not like you didn’t get born, being dead means that you alredy got your test, and good luck.
God existence makes way better sense than the Carbon theory you talk about, or revloution theory, god makes you better degree than a monkey, and the human being wanna be monkey.
So far I didn’t see monkey becomes human being, may be in the next revloution.
God guides you to the truth.
September 19th, 2006 at 1:05 am
Please to who ever wanna know more about the real Islam, not the Islam that has been image in the media, go to this link http://www.amrkhaled.net/acategories/categories79.html.
This link belongs to a really good Muslim lectuterer, it’s in English, if you really interested to know what the real Islam is and why I’m defending prophet Muhammed, just read what’s in this link.
September 19th, 2006 at 3:24 am
> Revlution, so we came from Gurilla, I will assume that you are right, where is this creature that get evuloted came from.
The creature that evolved into a guerilla, obviously.
> Do you know what does it mean if there is no god, mena mess, means I would kill you and don’t care about it any thing
I dont believe in a God/gods. I dont wander around killing people. I have no intention of ever doing such things. I would like to think that overall, I’m a pretty good person - I enjoy life and try to see that other people enjoy their lives. Now lets add in a God. Suddenly, instead of doing the right thing because I enjoy it, I’m doing the right thing because I fear going to hell. My motivation has turned from joy to fear. Is that even what a god would want?
> If every body beleived that god exist, we would be better off, because you would think million time before you do smething wrong,
Really? You would suggest that I dont think before I act? You think that Bush gave excess thought to killing tens of thousands of Iraqis? You think that the 911 hijackers openly discussed the moral implications of their actions with a broad and open panel of advisors? Religion leads to a narrowness of mind and a reduction of analysis, which causes people to do wrong, even by their own god’s analysis.
> God existence makes way better sense than the Carbon theory
Blind faith allows it to make more sense. Critical analysis does not. Do you really want to close your mind that much?
September 19th, 2006 at 5:44 am
Skyclad, I repect your point of view of evolution. It all just makes senses, however
why have envolution suddenly stopped. Theres no new animals, the only animal that scientist have studies on that uses a process of evolution is a catapillar/butterfly. Thats the bottom line, but there is some true to evolution I give you that (it would stand up otherwise) Its that fact that life adapts to its surroundings. perfect example would be polar bears and bog standard bears, they have suit there requirements and environment needs.
Just look at humans they are all sorts of colours of orgin, it all comes down to climate and genes that have been past down.
This is the science of evolution, that your clinging onto. Have you seen the video of evolution schmevolution its so funny, it showed the Darwin theory of the progression of man from ape. And the next step after man was the couch potato. So funny….
There no more evolution going on man face it
September 19th, 2006 at 5:54 am
But have u heard the lastest evolution theory floating around????
Its the evolution of islam. it started small, grew and mulputed
September 19th, 2006 at 6:02 am
> It all just makes senses, however why have envolution suddenly stopped.
Surely this is a troll? If not, please please actually do some reading on the whole concept of evolution!
> Its that fact that life adapts to its surroundings.
And this process can take tens of thousands of years. Dont expect your children to have a backward facing eye because you tink it might be useful for them.
September 19th, 2006 at 6:03 am
and now its mutated into something evil.
September 19th, 2006 at 6:10 am
Strange how you don’t believe in myths yet you think trolls exist
Which gene pool did they evolve from??
September 19th, 2006 at 6:14 am
http://www.internet-description.com/t/troll-net-culture.html
September 19th, 2006 at 8:50 am
The invocation of ethical relativism is no solution when we talk about two cultures in conflict. Of course each culture is different; that’s mastery of the obvious. Grow up. The members of each culture must use reason to bridge their differences. The alternative is war.
September 19th, 2006 at 8:55 am
How free would you be under Muslim rule? How tolerant would they be of relativistic thinking, of alternative lifestyles, and so on?
September 19th, 2006 at 12:19 pm
“Strange how you don’t believe in myths yet you think trolls exist
Which gene pool did they evolve from??”
He’s a troll, ignore him.
To mohamed,
“Do you know what does it mean if there is no god, mena mess, means I would kill you and don’t care about it any thing, it means that when somebody do unjust for me, nobody would get my right back.
If every body beleived that god exist, we would be better off, because you would think million time before you do smething wrong, we came here for test, all of this life is just test, you do good, you go to heaven, you do bad you go to hell, no matter if you are Muslim, Christian or Jew.”
The way I see it, everyone would be better off if no one believed in god. I don’t believe in god and I don’t go around killing people. Whens the last time an atheist killed in the name of religion? Atheists rely on naturalism and common sense. They are more flexible and better suited to the real world than any religion.
September 19th, 2006 at 12:28 pm
“You know inside your self that didn’t happen from chance, human being never been animal, god blessed the human being and give him the brain to think about it, I can’t beleive that someone has sense of logic think that we came from animal or by accident.”
I know inside myself that I’d like to believe in a fairy tale, but I also know that I live in the real world. Human beings evolved from animals over a period of times much longer than recorded history. Most people who dispute evolution, don’t know a thing about it. Every bit of it makes sense, and it is as much a theory, as the theory that the earth revolves around the sun. If whatever religion you believe in told you not to believe that the earth revolved around the sun… you wouldn’t. Open your mind.
Human beings ARE animals. Have you ever had a pet? Do you believe that they don’t feel like you do? Why should they not be as “special” as us? The only difference between us and every other animal is that we are more intelligent. At one point in time, it is very likely that there will be beings more intelligent than human beings, be it through evolution, genetic engineering, or artificial lifeforms. When they arise, and we aren’t the smartest animals, why should we be special then?
September 19th, 2006 at 3:17 pm
The Lord is my cat, she knows what’s going on but doesn’t want to get involved. What a wonderful way to get through life.
September 19th, 2006 at 4:45 pm
It funny how conversions move from one topic to the next and with reglion it either ends in my religions better than your or to that old evolution vs creationism chestnut.
This is always go on until christ returns, once has prophecy has forfil itself in both books (Bible and the Quran) Its a battle against good and evil. The root of all wars.
For anyone like “your father” who to be has his own valid reasons for what he believes or don’t believe. The whole thing with evolution seems to make alot of sense that what it was designed for an EXPLAINATION THOUGH SCIENCE.
But whats happened within the space of 2000 years, christanity has lasted a very long time. Say if you brought something in a shop and it does work, the survival of that shop wouldn’t last, if everyone are not getting what they asked for.
Suddenly a new shop on the high street has popped up, with a attractive shop window, when you look inside the shop is empty, why is it empty, because there is no missing link in the evolution theory. where are the talking monkeys there not there!!!. Sorry (It would be quite a strange shop if they where there, ha ha)
If that shops cool for you and your happy at how it looks, thats fine, but next time your walking down the road take a look in the god shop, the outside has been vandalised a bit by the youth yobs, (its all that hip hop nowadays). The look of the shop seem dated but I can promise you its nice inside and the service is very friendly. People always judge without knowing the full facts. go inside and experience what its all about and if its not for you then yeah, at least you tried it so you got a balanced opinion to the matter. My advice go-to the right church dont goto one of those dead catholic churches your experience nothing, unless you have faith already and sing the praise. Goto a gospel meeting, its overwealming in there and your experience what its all about.
Don’t take my word on it, take his, you sound intelligent enough to research the evolution theory now go and experience what jesus is all about and I promise you won’t be disapointed.
September 19th, 2006 at 6:00 pm
I just wonder how the evolution started, Gurilla became man and then how did he get then woman from, or may be started as woman and then this woman gave birth with out man for two twins, then the great accident happend one of the babies was boy, it’s all accidents any way.
That’s really make sense, it’s myth, Darwin just imagine the theory and the evidence is so weak.
If somebody told me how the evoultion came as man and woman, and each one has it’s sexual member that perfectly designed ot produce childern. That’s nonsense, I think Darwin was drunk when he wrote that.
God glorify human-being make all the angels kneel down to him except devil, he is the one he refused, because he thought that he is better than Adam. Here we are noe the devil manage to make his follower to adopt the idea and downgrade the human-being to an animal, we are not animals, we are higher than animals we have brain and mind to think about.
Stop downgrade your self to animal, if you think you are an animal, it’s up to you, I’m not.
September 19th, 2006 at 6:09 pm
Christianity’s age does not make it valid. Before evolutionary theory, people wanted an explaination for the existence of humans, and religion was the only one people could come up with. Sure it was full of holes, but there was nothing else out there that made more sense. Well, evolution is here now and it makes far far more sense. Since Christianity lasted so long, it became deeply rooted in our cultures, and many people aren’t willing to let it go, no matter how flawed.
As for your missing link. They do exist, fossils have been found of certain steps on our evolutionary ladder. Look into it, search for “Lucy” or homo australipithecus, homo erectus, (sp?) etc… It also makes perfect sense that they wouldn’t exist today. Those of a species less equipped to survive don’t. If genes for our missing link ancestors started that made them smarter started to spread, then those without the genes would die off, resulting in a smarter, more human species. Like I said before, those who dispute evolution, usually don’t know enough about it.
September 19th, 2006 at 7:36 pm
These fossils were found and named from the size of there skulls and bones, some are erroaded away, but are reccoigned for a link with man. There is so much variety in humans you got all shapes and sizes just look at the basketball players. Do they have special names due to their abnormal frame. No they are all human.
There must be also a variety of bones found and the ones outside the average size is abnormal so they are given a name. There is so much variety in life you can’t say this is a typical size of people as everyone is different, but you could say
the average size is this but you would need to conduct a very large study to cater for all types of remains
I do believe there is some true in evolution, all species of living things do adapt to their environment. If you lived in a cave your ears will grow to adapt to the reverberation of the cavern. If you lived in a cold climate your bones will change size and harden to suit its needs and surroundings. There are so many factors that could change nature, the species would still be the same, but just another variation.
The age of these people are debatable, what archologicist say is how deep they found the bones, but if look at how vocanoes add layers to the land, you could say it adds many thousands of years to what lies beneath. The world is littered with vocanoes and cracks where continents split and the lava changes the depth and mass of the land.
Nearly all people who debating this who are for evolution are saying theres no god and only evolution, where people who are for creation are ok not familar with much of the evolution theory because your saying there is no god. It going against history and peoples religous experiences. I don’t need a book to tell me god exist because of the experiences I’ve had. But what I’m saying is that they both co-exist. Life needs to evolve to survive but the orgins are debatable especially if you consider which came first the chicken or the egg.
September 19th, 2006 at 8:02 pm
“These fossils were found and named from the size of there skulls and bones, some are erroaded away, but are reccoigned for a link with man. There is so much variety in humans you got all shapes and sizes just look at the basketball players. Do they have special names due to their abnormal frame. No they are all human.”
Those bones couldn’t be from a human. Genetic diversity among humans doesn’t account for a smaller cranial cavity in the skull (which would contain a smaller brain). You can’t look at horse bones and say it’s a human because homans are diverse. The same goes for the missing link species, and carbon dating can definitely show the difference between thousands and millions of years.
“It going against history and peoples religous experiences.”
People who said the world wasn’t flat went against history and peoples religous experiences too.
“Life needs to evolve to survive but the orgins are debatable especially if you consider which came first the chicken or the egg.”
The egg… The individual chicken who brought about speciation (the development of a new species) came from an egg that came from another species similar to a chicken.
September 19th, 2006 at 9:11 pm
Your extremely knowledge on the subject, You’ve managed to answer my questions professionally and precisely to your opinion of our orgins, I still think that there is a lot of unexplainable things in this world that can’t be explained though science like the miracle healing. One that would baffle the highest level of expert in medical science.
But its been quite educational talking to you all the same, I still have my beliefs and I do hope that your see the other side of the coin one day, one that will bring you to see the whole picture.
September 19th, 2006 at 9:20 pm
To whom said that he wants to enjoy life and to be free. There is no freedom on this earth, any freedom has to have rules to protect it doesn’t make it mess.
I need somebody to answer my question, what if somebody killed you, do you think it’s fair, and what if the justice couldn’t get him, what do you think, would that be justice, who is going to get you right back.
Fear of god bring safety to you, if every body know the truth that there is god watching him, he would hesitate to kill, rape or beat, you would think million time before do something like that, and I’m talking in general, it has to be god there to get your right back when somebody do unjustice to you.
Who do you think would judge Bush and Usama Bin Laden for all of the evil doing, do you think they are going to run away with it?, no I will not happen, god will get them as they trotured and killed people.
I don’t think the evolution would that, or may be the mother nature.
So again fear of god is not something bad as you think, it gives you the safety, and make you stronger because you know there is the strongest that no body can’t deafet him which is god.
September 19th, 2006 at 10:18 pm
mohammed, want you on about fear god. You will be judged yeah, in this life. But thats your decision. Its which pathway you take in life, that determines your fate with god.
I’m not sure you know god well or not but he is the god of love and peace, you got nothing to fear, fear comes from the devil, my friend
God is forgiving and if you sin against him, he will accept you back, providing your willing to change.
Retailation comes from man, just look at the pictures at the top of the screen do you think god is motivating or the devil…..think about it mate…..hate is not a characterist of god. forgiveness is do you think they have it in them to forgive the pope. No come on!!! mohammed. I believe you are a good man at heart.
If you think god will have judgement on your enermy why don’t you leave it to god then, no these are not the actions of men of god, but violent men so far from the heavenly father its unreal.
When you say “if somebody killed you, do you think it’s fair”,
Your religon wants to kill the infidels (unbelievers), and take over the world. and what your saying after is revengeful. This is not what god wants at all.
This same “fear of god” made those people in the plane kill innocent people in the WTS building. And as that building went down people in muslims countries were cheering as this was the first step in a chain of results that is leading us to armaggon (Jihad).
Its not the fear of not getting into heaven its the will of making this evil prophecy come true. and booking your one way ticket to hell.
September 19th, 2006 at 11:11 pm
My freind,
If Islam wanted to take over the world like you say, we would do it from long time ago, when the christian and the jews has no power and we were the most powerfull nation.
You point finger that we kill people for revernge, we don’t kill people, we got killed every day in Iraq and our women raped, and your president is christian and he is supposed that he is so colse to god, where was the forgivness that you talk about when 9/11 happened, or you can remember your faith and forgivness when you talk to me.
Islam didn’t kill christian either in Egypt nor Lebanon nor syrian when he conqered these countries, they let worship what they beleive in.
You beleive that Jesus is the son of god, god needs no sons, Jesus is just prophet, and if you read the real bible if existed any more, you will know that he is not, he is just prophet, and he is most likely is ashamed of people that think that he is god, because god will ask him this question, Christian think that Jesus died for their sins, Jesus didn’t die yet, he is in the sky, and he will return to kill the anti-christ and then he will die, and he will be judged like all the prophets and all human being.
Don’t fear god because god mercifull, I totally agree that god is the most mercifull, and you will not get to the heaven by just your doing but also by his mercy, but you still have to fear him, he owns everthing in this world, he decides your destiny, otherwise do what ever you want, and then say god will forgive me, because Jesus died for my sins.
Why Jesus would die for your sins, he can’t even controll his own destiny, he just did and he will do what he has been told as prophet, we all servants for god, including prophets, it’s all about your doing and god mercy.
For sure it doesn’t convince you that Jesus is not god, God doesn’t eat or drink, god is not human being, you can’t even reach god by imigination, your imigination is limtied to certain point.
I hope I didn’t offend you, and please be carefull about pointing about Muslims that they kill people, Christian has long history of vilonce, so