A long time ago in a galaxy far far away, I covered Penn Jillette’s piece on NPR entitled, There Is No God. It recently grabbed the attention of Lord Spanky and this is what he had to say. I offer you the complete unedited commentary and would appreciate your thoughts on the matter.
Begin Commentary:
The sad fact of the matter is that most of what I’ve heard on this forum, both from believers and non, are all blind assumptions. I wish I had come across this forum sooner, though maybe I can contribute a little wisdom now. A belief in God or not should always begin at the beginning. Logically, it is the best place to start, and what does that mean? Why do we exist? I read earlier that someone brought up evolution on the subject of empathy, and no one questioned it! Let’s get away from assumptions, shall we? You want to talk science, let’s do it.
FACT: None of you here can prove evolution. No one can, and no matter how much you hate it, it’s still a theory that is NOT standing up to the test of time. As time progresses, more and more flaws are being found in Darwin’s theory, which he himself denounced on his death bed, but no one wants to admit that, do they? If you dig down into the earth to look at the fossil record, you will find that the deeper you go you actually find remains of MORE complex organisms, not less, until it just suddenly stops. Explain this to me, please? Evolution just got a big hole in it. If anyone on this board can explain to me how the human eye EVOLVED, feel free. Why would a random mutation cause a hole to form in the front of our eye, if there was nothing in the back to detect the light, form an image, and send that information to our brains? And why, if there was no pupil to allow light through, would receptors have formed at the backs of our eyes? Answer? That’s not even all of it! The scientifically accepted chaos theory shoots holes all in evolution.
FACT: Science contradicts itself, not the Bible. Anyone can twists words in a text, but I don’t have to twist anything when bringing up the previous point of chaos theory and evolution. Science tells us that the earth is billions of years old, but sedimentary data in river deltas and other areas only suggest thousands. Carbon dating has been proven inaccurate time and time again, and yet all of you accept what you hear on the discovery channel, yes? Why? How is that so different from my accepting something that I read in a book that is FAR older than a television?
FACT: Christianity is the only organized religion in the world that has such explicit prophecies concerning end times in it. As far as it being “creative interpretation”, how does that apply when Christ Himself says that natural disaster in the end times will increase in number and severity? Hmmmm…that could be interpreted a lot of ways, couldn’t it? Please don’t debate about a book you’ve never read, it only makes you look ignorant.
FACT: Miracles happen. Yeah, I just said that. BobbyG mentioned experiences that I’m sure you were all so anxious to hear and shoot down, so I’ve got some of my own for you. Feel free to criticize, because you can’t disprove them; I’m the one with documentation. I have seen a blind girl healed. I was at an Arkansas Youth Camp, and there were about 500 of us (teenagers) there, and our sermon had been about the supernatural. We were in a worship point in our service and a youth leader went to the DYD (District Youth Director) and told him that she wanted to be healed. I tell you that I spoke with her before this happened, and afterward. Today she can see perfectly, she could not then. A friend of mine had twisted, in fact nearly fractured, her ankle that same week of youth camp, and on Tuesday night she came in from the hospital to the service, having been whisked away from the camp when the accident happened. She had a splint on and was on krutches, and was supposed to be for two weeks. She literally sprinted out of the sanctuary that night. Those are only a few examples from my youth.
You see, you all talk about abstract things like emotions and a sense of right and wrong, but how can you respond to physical evidence in a physical world? To Log, how is it “cheap” to admit that I’m too weak to handle a given situation and trust it to higher hands? You look at the order of the universe, the fact that the sun rises everyday, and tell me that there is no God? The Bible says that He will harden the hearts of the wicked and foolish. None of you have yet to present any evidence as to God’s non-existence, only assumptions. By the way, Jay, you offered so much insight after bashing everyone else’s logic. Please don’t try to be the “smart guy” anymore. You had nothing tangible, either. That seems to be what you all want, right? Something solid? Some proof? Well, here you go. I haven’t seen any of you come up with any.
No related posts.
your Father says,
Those were seperate issues. I was saying to the other fellow that there are three possiblities to how the universe came into existence because it is obviously not infinite. One of those options is Intelligent Design and we know that this is an option from scientific and theoretical arguments based on logic. The possibility and probablility of it is backed up the Bible and Christ.
Kamui,
First of all, Wikopedia is not a reliable source for anything. Also, did you ever consider the possibility that the myths wrote that were about a flood and building a boat are BECAUSE these things really happened? There is no evidence to support that my statement is not true. On the other hand, there is evidence for a flood- Canyons, Ice Age, etc.
One of those options is Intelligent Design and we know that this is an option from scientific and theoretical arguments based on logic.
Know thine theory. While there are many types of intelligent design, I doubt you follow the Erich vonDaniken school of thought on it where super-aliens came to earth and bred the species of the world to produce man kind as a kind of labor force. You probably mean Intelligent Design as stated by the Discovery Institute. DI’s ID is unfortunately just a wedge strategy they used to attempt to wrest credibility away from evolution and surplant it with Creationism. ID was just their first step. It was stated by them directly in a little internal memo, which by the way after its leak and the defeats at several school boards, they decided to change strategies to the “Theory in crisis!” attacks on evolution.
The possibility and probablility of it is backed up the Bible and Christ.
Well I know that the Kwizats Haderach will come to liberate the Fremmen and free Arakis. Then the spice shall flow. The possibility and probability of it is backed up by Dune and Frank Herbert.
Also, did you ever consider the possibility that the myths wrote that were about a flood and building a boat are BECAUSE these things really happened?
I consider that these things might have happened, but not on the world wide deleuge scale. Ancient people had to live near rivers and in flood plains. Before modern agriculture it was the only way to ensure good soil for your crops. Now take a civilization where its 5 days walk to the nearest city (probably around 15 miles through barrens and such). With this how big would you think the world was? It would be absurd from this frame of reference to think that the world was very big, no one could ever see all of it if it were. So suddenly your civilization is hit by a massive flood, seeing as how 50 miles on each side of it are the biggest rivers in the area and your little place is actually a valley between the two. Both rivers flood and for hundreds of miles its all water. You’d float for days and not see any thing not covered, certainly the whole world is underwater! Unfortunately for literal belief in the whole world being flooded, we no know how big the earth is.
On the other hand, there is evidence for a flood- Canyons, Ice Age, etc.
I don’t get how those are evidence of a flood. Canyons are just as capable of being formed by normal water contiditions. Take Georgia’s Providence Canyon. Around 200 years ago the area was flat and held farmland along a tributary of the Flint river. Due to bad farming practices, the top soil around the river degraded and began to wash out. As happens in hydrological systems, the silty river continued to carve away at the ground in the area, what we have now is a canyon that is hundreds of feet tall in places after only a few years of human mistakes. The Grand Canyon is the same, minus the human intervention. Rivers that don’t run over bedrock inevitably cut their way down too it.
And the Ice Age? I’m no meteorologist but after floods, its usually hotter and humid in the area of occurance, not chill snap cold. How can you attribute the Noacian flood to causing an Ice Age?
“”Rivers that don’t run over bedrock inevitably cut their way down too it.”"
Yes, and they keep going.
I’m no meteorologist either, but I study civil engenering (masters degree), thus have to take geology. and indeed, the ability of several hundred cubic meters of sandy water to cut through rock is amazing. We have a small model of sandy water running over a plexiglass bed. The waterflow is about to your average river. In the two years it’s been running, it’s but out almost a centimeter and a half of PLEXIGLASS. (as well as three pumps)
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When an area floods, the large body of water absorbs less heat then the land that used to be there, and deflects more back into space. So were the whole world to flood, it would indeed cool down a bit. The difference is negiable however. If the whole world would flood, a lot of vegitation would die, releaseing MASSIVE ammounts of CO2, which would actaully cause global warming.
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“”Kamui,
First of all, Wikopedia is not a reliable source for anything.”"
Yes indeed, which is why wikipedia, just like any good information source, lists sources. Check them first before bashing the wiki.
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“”There is no evidence to support that my statement is not true.”"
AHAHAHAHAHA….”I’m holding a million bucks in my left hand, a small two-headed rodent in my right, and I’m currently typing with my feet”
“”There is no evidence to support that my statement is not true.”"
In fact, there is only evidence that it IS true, because i’m saying so. this is a non-argument. Do you expect me to believe that one man build a boat that could hold 2 of every non-swimming animal in the world? not to mention the problems of getting them all into the same place, or stocking provisions for such a duration. Of course, you would need to take all 300.000+ species of plants to.
Then not to mention the fact that it’s impossible to build a boat big enough to carry them all (not out of wood anyway, it would have to be several aircraft carriers big (I could give you the math, or you could trust someone who’s job it is to make sure stuff doesn’t collapse)
Then to believe ONE MAN build this in a rather short ammount of time and to say it’s actaully THE THRUTH because it is mentioned in the bible….AHAHAHAHA
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While I’m at it, how would someone who lived over 3000 years ago even KNOW how the whole world flooded? did he see the whole world? or maybe he just saw everything he knew was under water? that’s not to hard. when you’re 5km out of the coast, you see nothing but water (and tall building, but there were none back then)
Oh, my good Lord! I go out of town for a weekend and look what happens! J, shutup. All of your credibility was used up in the mindless exhange between you and Matt. Absolutely ridiculous. Now, I’ve read most of these posts in an attempt to catch back up (I had no idea this would be such a popular thread), and it seems that some fools decided NOT to read and catch up and somehow evolution has been resurrected in this discussion. So then, see post number 34. You don’t like it, I don’t care.
Now then, I’ll address Agnostic’s post number 99 first, since I am the one that generated this entire debate. Yes, God is generally loving and good, but He is also a jealous God, and all the evidence I saw refers to the old testament, which was all about God setting His people apart. Your arguments there are mute; it isn’t an accurate description of how God is portrayed in the new testament. Secondly, your little site that supposedly disproves creationism, is a load. It says stuff like, “Creationsist believe that the universe is really complex, so they think there’s a God!” This is flawed and misrepresents us. There are numerous blanks where that comma is that states what we believe. It’s not such a jump. Also, it makes use of pointing out logical fallacies in those arguments (by misrepresenting them) that are incredibly ignorant. In fact, both that site and all of you are operating currently under a ridiculous assumption. You have to be able to comprehend God for Him to exist? I’m sorry, but that is an incredibly ignorant thing to believe. As I said before, do any one of us comprehend gravity? No. We can look around and view its effects, in fact we live dependent on its effects, yet not one of you here can explain what makes it work. You can offer theories, but you can’t explain anything. Do you know why? Because we can’t understand it yet. As for the age of the earth that keeps coming up, as well, carbon dating is a ridiculously inaccurate method with too many unknown variable in the equations that it supposedly uses. It just isn’t very good science.
Naery, your AI argument has one major flaw…it required you to create that computer than can emulate our emotions, something that sets us apart from everything else in the world. This series of super complex “whatever we don’t understand things” that causes our emotions in your scenario was indeed created by something, it didn’t just happen. While I won’t be foolish and use that to say that obviously ours was created, I will say that you’re comparing apples and oranges. You claim that ours was not engineered, and then you compare it to something that was. Again, not good science.
Now to Kamui in post 112. I must say, one of the better points on here. However, you are initially talking about denominational differences, not my belief. Admittedly, I am a protestant, but I don’t hold all of their beliefs. Like most of you here claim to have done, there came a point when I decided to evaluate everything for myself. When I came to the conclusion of God, I then had to carry that over to biblical learning. The Nephilim are, in fact, mentioned twice in the bible, both in the verse you quoted, and also in Numbers 13:30. I can’t quote that right off to you here because I’m only going on memory, but the Nephilim are one of the first things I plan on asking God about, honestly. They fascinate me, and they are discussed in much more depth in the controversial book of Enoch, which should answer your other question. We don’t know who authored certain books, and also certain ones disagree in too many sections with the rest of the texts. We also know from historical accounts that many people were trying to fake similar texts to these for various reasons. Nonetheless, it is equally interesting to note that the Nephilim survived the flood, but that has no bearing here in this discussion. You’ll find that you can’t argue biblical doctrine or technicalities with me.
Matt, in post 117, to say “God did everything, i dont need to look into it anymore” is indeed ignorant and destructive, but to say “God didn’t do everything, I don’t need to look into it anymore” is just as equally destructive because you destroy the very nature of science that you speak about so ignorantly, and that is to ask questions.
To post 121, yes, we do now know more than ever, and that is by our own doing, not God’s. The bible actually says that mankind’s knoweledge will increase greatly as we near the end times, it never gives any illusions to it being God’s doing.
To Mohamed in 123, yes religion and science to contradict each other. However, God and science do not, and should not. It only happens when God is misrepresented as religion.
Matt, in post 127, actually, you had to responsibility for proof there. While I’m at it, do you believe that the earth’s early atmosphere when life was just about to begin had oxygen or not? It doesn’t matter, life wouldn’t have formed either way (see my earlier-mentioned post).
To Sean 141, you can’t prove anything you said, and you don’t even try to. Those texts that you say we borrowed from could just have easily borrowed from us, and as I said, you can’t prove one way or the other. Just empty words with a small hypothesis behind them. Leave it alone.
J, I really wish that you would stop using the whole “the universe in complex so God created it” argument. As much as I hate to bash you, that proves nothing. The argument is completely without point, just like them saying that “everything is complex and that proves evolution” would be a totally ignorant statement.
Kamui (147), I would only say that further supports that there actually was a flood. Again, you can’t prove where the story actually originated, all you can do is bring up more evidence that it happened. Why would those people have dreamed up such a story, anyway, and all setting it at around the same time period? Something to think about.
To Indio (150) interesting that you should rant so ignorantly when I already admitted that my having witnessed miracles proves nothing to all of you and indeed did stop using it as an argument. Read the other posts and inform yourself before you comment, please.
Humanistic Jones (152), interesting that you should even bring up the Ice Age. It could more accurately be called and ice epoch. The assumption that it took thousand of years has no proof, as in fact the evidence suggests that it happened almost instantaneously. Do you recall discovering mammoths with food still in their mouths not entirely chewed? Perfectly preserved? Yet another example of a seemingly HUGE time period science points out that we have no idea how long actually was.
The biggest logical fallacy that I see on this entire board is this: “If I can’t understand God, then He doesn’t exist.” That, my friends, is a statement birthed in ignorance.
Your Father says,
First of all, in my own defense, I was not attempting to prove anything by saying the universe is complex. If you looked at post 134, you would see that i was just posting that as an example. Everybody took that to mean that i was implying that is some kind of absolute proof. I know very well that doesn’t prove anything. Listen, when trying to prove the existence of a god, you have to start somewhere. That place is the origin of the universe. The 3 options are that it was (1) created out of absolutely nothing, (2) It was created by a force of random chance, (3) It was designed by someone/something that can think and act. I did not imply a specific god. But since the universe is complex, it would indicate that there is a good possiblity that the 3rd option is probable. Not provable, probable. And that is just ONE argument. You have to consider a higher being is possible in light of that. I did not mean to go any further than that but people automatically assumed. I only went this far because everybody seems to be saying there is no possiblity at all of a god.
And matt was so much more intelligent than me in his arguments? He didnt give me anything to do, he just implied things based on his assumptions and didn’t give any evidence of anything. Am i right?
Humanistic Jones,
Please, save your critisisms for later. I was just trying to get started so these people can understand that a god is a legitimate option. ID is a good place to start going into all that.
another evidence for the flood would be the Cambrian Explosion.
Weakness is Power,
Thanks for your response, I appreciate it, but I think you missed what I was getting at. To put it bluntly, if this is the word of god, why do the different denominations have different versions of the texts? Every Christian I have heard speak on the issue goes on about how the Bible is a perfect text representing the entirety of god’s word, and yet all these different denominations include different versions of it – so how can they all be the one perfect version? It just doesn’t make sense to me.
As for my discussion of the flood myths, well yes, there very probably was a flood in the Near East recent enough to be in the living memory of the peoples inhabiting that region. Take a look at the Ryan and Pitman theory that the natural dam on the Bosporus ruptured, and flooded the area catastrophically. People used to attribute earthquakes to god, now we understand that it’s tectonic plates shifting. How is the rupturing of a natural dam somehow more godly than an earthquake?
Even if that’s not the case, and it was some other flood, I want to know what somehow makes the Hebraic version of the myth more valid than the Sumerian or Greek version.
sorry, I meant for the begginning of 155 to be to Weakness of Power
To Weakness if Power
Erm? I compare something that is created to something that is created?
Only thing I was trying to say with AI, is that it is a good way of realising we are but complex machines, be we engineered by God or whatever. We are just NOT special. (In the human kind of way of meaning special in this context).
“”Oh, my good Lord!”"
now, now, mustn’t use His name vain now…
“”all the evidence I saw refers to the old testament, which was all about God setting His people apart. Your arguments there are mute; it isn’t an accurate description of how God is portrayed in the new testament.”"
But if all of the bible is the thruth, are you telling me god had a major change of heart? or is it that there is a different god now then in mozes’ days?
“”carbon dating is a ridiculously inaccurate method with too many unknown variable in the equations that it supposedly uses. It just isn’t very good science.”"
Erm, huh? too many unknown variables?? the halflife is a fixed constant, the ammount of Carbon-14 absorbed is measurable up to 5000BC by trees dating back that far and a correction curve exists (oh wait, there is no 5000bc the earth isn’t that old)
“”“God didn’t do everything, I don’t need to look into it anymore†is just as equally destructive because you destroy the very nature of science”"
True, so very true and yet so completely besides the point. nobody here ever said anything even remotely close to that.
“”he assumption that it took thousand of years has no proof, as in fact the evidence suggests that it happened almost instantaneously. Do you recall discovering mammoths with food still in their mouths not entirely chewed?”"
actaully, the evidense comes from the fact that ice-core samples drilled up from the polar regions show “ice rings” much like trees. You can count them. The “rings” dating back to the ice ages are a lot thicker then usual, thus more snow fell. also, spores discovered in those layers of ice match those found in the river sediments and in the ground, right next to stuff that can be carbon dated (of course, that’s all fake and a big conspiracy)
Now, on to another point which is kind of pissing me off. Note that every single new point i’ve brought up has been completely ignored. My point about noah’s ark has gone unanswered as well as the point on “god’s screw ups in human creation”
Ill repost one of them for your convenience
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Do you expect me to believe that one man build a boat that could hold 2 of every non-swimming animal in the world? not to mention the problems of getting them all into the same place, or stocking provisions for such a duration. Of course, you would need to take all 300.000+ species of plants to.
Then not to mention the fact that it’s impossible to build a boat big enough to carry them all (not out of wood anyway, it would have to be several aircraft carriers big (I could give you the math, or you could trust someone who’s job it is to make sure stuff doesn’t collapse)
Then to believe ONE MAN build this in a rather short ammount of time and to say it’s actaully THE THRUTH because it is mentioned in the bible….
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SORRY, it seems my post about gods hiccups never made it to the forum. I take it back… my apologies.
this it what it should have said.
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If god created us,
why did he give us an appendix, which serves no goal that other organs can’t do.
Why does my lower leg have a second muscle that has only 0.5% of the strength of my calf muscle that serves no purpose?
Why do some people still have a bony lump on their ears where animals have muscles to move their ears?
Why do we have body hair? It serves no purpose as there is far to little to keep us warm
Why oh why do we have so much “junk” DNA? Experimetns in fruitflies show that they can live normally with only 35% of their DNA?
Why do we have genetic defects and heritage diseases?
Why oh why do we have any of the 120+ useless constructions in our body (not all of us, the bony outcropping for example is only present in some people)
And while we’re on genetics….
If god created Adam and Eve, (2 people, maximum of 4 different genes for 1 characteristic) how is it possible that:
There are more then 4 base genetic eye-colors? Did god make a few adjustsments in Cain and their other kids? (ps, where did Cain get his wive in a distant land?)
There are more then 4 base genetic hair colors?
I wouldn’t quite call this a job well done. It’s almost as if things are adjusting as they go along…hmmm.
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well, I could continue allmost ad infinitum, mentioning inbreeding among the first humans, etc. etc.
But I think i’ve made the point well enough.
sorry for making this unnecesarily long, but how do you guys make those italic tags? i’ve seen HTML not working here….
J, sorry I was so harsh, I was rather aggrivated. I know what you were doing in bringing up the complexity factor, but it kept on getting brought up and taken to far, and if I took it out of your context, then I’m sure I’m not the only one. Kamui, I didn’t expound on your question of denominations because that 1) Isn’t my most informed area, and 2) Because all of those text are available to everyone, whether that denomination wants it to be or not. I have read or been exposed in some fashion almost all of these various texts, and while I can’t tell you why respective groups chose to exclude them, I can give you my own opinion (which is why I didn’t originally answer you directly). Various apochryphal that, for example, the catholic Bible has, disagree too strongly with all of the “mainstream” books like the protestants use. However, in the case, for example, of the book of Enoch, one of my favorite books, it offers no insight that is important for life. It is, in effect, a history book. It gives prophecies which were fulfilled in Moses’ time, which removes there bearing on the world at large today. It deals with an ancient, and also, as you pointed out, the Nephilim, which indeed is ignored by mainstream Christianity. To be blunt, I am not your usual Christian. Most that say they do don’t even believe literally the Bible in its entirety. I do not avoid subjects out of fear, but I will avoid them if I am ignorant to the subject. Why try to appear to know something that I don’t? I enjoy biblical mysteries, because they do show that there is something that even those all knowing priests don’t understand.
To answer your question on the flood, the Hebrew “myth” is the most detailed illustration of it. Also, current archeological and other scientific evidence support this “myth” more than any other.
To Alcari, I wouldn’t so much call it a change of heart. It was all designed and intended as part of His plan. Yes, this lacks scientific backing, but we are talking about the nature of God, so you’ll have to forgive that this time. The change was the death and resurrection of Christ. Another very major difference was the pouring out of the Holy Spirit in the book of Acts, which gave to everyone the power once entrusted to the prophets. No matter which way you look at it, the New Testament was a huge turning point.
On to the Noah point, I should point out that I don’t claim to have all the answers. However, again, you are limiting God to your own comprehension. Also, it took Noah 120 years to build the ark, so it wasn’t just a short period of time. This was a huge boat. However, this is not an area I’ve studied, so I’ll try to find some info and get back to you one that. Also, about the God “hiccups”, I don’t claim to know the mind of God. That also is something that I do intend to ask God, because I won’t tell you that it doesn’t bother me.
On to the post that I actually wanted to make, and sorry this has again become so long. I was in the shower earlier and had been watching Fox News and this whole North Korea situation, and I have to say that I’m am very disconcerted by it. Then, out of nowhere, I remembered something I had read years ago. I remember reading a book about the Bible codes. I am EXTREMELY skeptical about the bible codes, in fact I would tell you if you asked that I don’t believe in them, but I remembered reading that they had found the words “nuclear holocaust” and “2006″ close together. I’ve been passing this year by not expecting anything, but with this current North Korea thing, who knows? If something happens because of them, whether they themselves do it or not, I have to admit that despite my skepticism I would definitely have to look more into these codes. Not that it would convince me, but it would make me question. Do you all agree with my logic?
Well, then, this will probably be my last post on this board, though I think I’ll keep up with the site. Nothing will be accomplished here, either by you or me, but I would like to give you all something to consider, and please take me seriously and hear me out. All the prophecy, indeed the most specific prophecy in the bible is NOT in Revelation, and I want to give you something now from the book of Ezekial. I’m not going to quote the verse, as it is all incredibly long, but I will tell you what to expect. No less than 3.5 years from the beginning of the tribulation, which is an impossible period of time to be sure of, an attack will come on Israel, and here is what it will entail. Russia will be a major player, along with Iran, Egypt, Persia, and most of Israel’s biggest enemies. These forces will come in a huge assault force from the north. Here’s the kicker: they will be supernaturally destroyed on the mountains to the north of Israel. As I’m sure that the news won’t carry that headline, here are some other things to look for: The attack will come so quickly that Israel will not have time to respond. They will be unable to defend themselves. NOT ONE ISRAELI WILL BE HARMED IN ANY WAY. There’s your first thing to watch for. THE ATTACKING FORCE WILL BE COMPLETELY DESTROYED, WITH NO SURVIVORS. There’s your second. Now from the remains of this force, Israel will bury everyone in a mass grave. More importantly, however, the Bible says that from the ruins of that army, Israel will go out and collect enough fuel to burn for seven straight years. This seems to suggest a burning fire, though it could be debated as to specifics, but the important part here is that it will burn for SEVEN years. That’s a big fire.
Now then, am I expecting you to accept all of this as fact? No. But, in the same manner that if something nuclear goes awry that I’m going to have to look into the codes for no one else than myself, if all of that happens as I said it will, the all of you will have to raise questions. That’s all I’m asking. That’s the only way that I know to begin to bring an end to this discussion, because this is going nowhere fast. Am I saying that if that happens that you should just accept that I’m right? No, I’m saying that if it happens, you cannot now simply dismiss it as mere coincidence. You must, in that event, consider seriously all of your held beliefs. In the end, we all have faith in what we believe, and I respect all of you greatly that have supported your arguments with evidence and not simply posted your own opinions for the sake of being heard.
I intend stay active on this website, for the simple reason that I would like to bring a different opinion to the discussions. Differences are not a bad thing. I may be able to share insight that none of you would have, and the reverse it true as well. As for this particular discussion, I bid you all farewell, and J, good luck if you intend on continuing this pointless exchange.
Wow, sorry, there were a lot of aberrations in form in that last post.
Also, for future reference, I think I’m going to start using Lord Spanky as my name, since that’s what everyone knows me by now.
A few weeks ago a christian used this mantra on me:
“If you found something as complex as a pocket watch in the desert you would assume it had a creator so how can something as complex as life not have a creator?”
The answer (of course) is that if the pocket watch contained within it instructions on how to replicate it that could themselves reproduce, if those instructions were subject to random mutation and if the watch contained the apparatus to replicate itself then I would assume it evolved.
I have skimmed through the posts above and I know I am late to the debate but I had to put in my two bits worth.
First, some background. I grew up Mormon, went through four years of Seminary and four years of Institute of Religion. I went further to study the doctrines of most major religions and know more on the Bible than most Priests. I am now agnostic bordering on atheist.
Growing up Mormon (and yes, Mormons are Christian) one of my favorite doctrines was that as the children of God we could grow up to be like him. Essentially, according to Mormon dogma, it is within all of us to become Gods. To my mind this made sense. Call it stroking the ego I guess. As I got older and learned more and more of scripture I found myself rationalizing in order to make the doctrine fit the world around me even though the evidence would indicate otherwise. I even found myself digging deep and coming up with wild theories to make it all fit but it never did.
Since walking away from organized religion I have found less and less evidence of the existance of God in the “old man in the sky who watches everything you do” sense. I acknoledge the chance of the existance of a supreme power but to codify that into a God is just silly.
Christians baffle me. Christ’s words as recorded in the Gospels are third hand at best with the exception of John. Matthew, Mark, and Luke were recording stories, not first hand accounts. Never once do you see Christ’s story in his own words. A religion based on a game of Telephone with scripture that any scholar can tell you was tampered with at almost every level of translation. No thanks.
Jews I know very little about other than the basic foundation every Christian hears. At least their scripture is pretty close to its original form. Still, not my cup of tea.
Don’t even get me started on the mad ravings of Muhammad. One second he will preach peace and harmony and then say it is okay to lie to and kill infidels if it benefits you. Then there is the ridiculous ban on images of Muhammad and other seriously crackpot shit.
All of the above religions teach a level of intolerance for people different than you. No matter which one you pick, heaven will be a small place and hell will be packed with the non-believers. What kind of ridiculous tripe is that?
Now to the Ezekial end-times prophecy by Weakness is Power. First, which countries are involved in the prophecy varies depending on which translation you use. The fact that you even have to make that caveat makes it dubious at best. In the King James Version for instance it says Ethiopia and Libya would be involved. The only ones that mention Russia are translations that have happened ofter the formation of Russia as a Communist state. Since the fall of communism you hear that version less and less. If you want to be literal in your translation they will all be wearing shields and helmets. Last I checked, modern soldiers don’t carry shields. Further, this is the prophecy of the Feast of the Great God in which all of the beasts of the field will eat the meat and drink the blood of the rotting corpses of the enemy. Since the writing of that prophecy, every single time someone has attacked Israel, this prophecy is mentioned as a sign to watch for, including when Babylon and later the Romans attacked. It was mentioned more than once during the crusades by both Jew and Christian alike. Ezekial lived roughly 2600 years ago. You figure it out.
First of all, no, Mormons are not Christians. Mormonism is an idiot’s creation from a time when he was high on ‘shrumes. An angel brought Smith some golden tablets full of divine revelation, but oh, wait, he lost them, but let’s still write a book of Mormon and have it be superior to the bible. That makes perfect sense, to me. No mainstream Christian denomination believes that we can become like God, and that just further glorifies Him, plus we get our own little planets. Let’s not forget the Mormon belief that there is no hell. For someone who knows so much about major religions, you sure weren’t fast to point out all of the HUGE differences between Mormonism and Christianity. Congrats on escaping that cult, but it is cults like that and the Jehovah’s Witnesses that give Christianity a bad name. They are not the same, and don’t you dare say that they are.
Now, on to the prophecy.
(formerly Weakness Is Power)
Sorry, my computer screwed up in the middle of that last one, here’s what it should have been…
First of all, no, Mormonism is NOT Christianity, or any form of it. No mainstream Christian denomination believes that we can become like God, complete with our own little planets to rule over and everything, and it all further glorifies God because He’s the “main” God. No mainstream Christian denomination believes that there is no hell. Do not insult me with claims that cults like Mormonism and Jehovah’s Witnesses are Christian; they are not. One man was high on some ‘shrumes and claims that an angel brought him some golden plates with divine revelation on them, he lost the plates, though, but let’s still write a book about it and claim that it’s superior to the Bible, which every Christian denomination uses. The book of Mormon is a load. The atheists (majority) on this board would have to admit that the book of Mormon has far less credibility that even the Bible. Cults like that will never have my respect, and do not insult me with false claims that show your ignorance.
Moving on to the prophecy, who’s corpses do you think the beasts are supposed to feast on? Russia is brought in to the prophecy because it is the land where Gog and Magog settled, and they are the main point of the prophecy. The references to helmets, shields, etc. are representative of being armed for battle. If God had said to someone 2,000 years ago, “Okay, these big things made of a substance called metal are going to fly over the land and drop huge canisters that are meant to explode,” do you really think that the man would have said, “Oh, okay. I understand.” Also, it’s interesting to note that a pile of swords and spears would never burn for seven years! However, Russia has engineered a wood that is harder than steel, but burn better than coal, and they have plans to begin constructing tanks (that I know of) out of this material. However, here is the prophecy in its entirety…
Ezekiel 38-39 (New International Version)
Ezekiel 38
A Prophecy Against Gog
1 The word of the LORD came to me: 2 “Son of man, set your face against Gog, of the land of Magog, the chief prince of [a] Meshech and Tubal; prophesy against him 3 and say: ‘This is what the Sovereign LORD says: I am against you, O Gog, chief prince of [b] Meshech and Tubal. 4 I will turn you around, put hooks in your jaws and bring you out with your whole army—your horses, your horsemen fully armed, and a great horde with large and small shields, all of them brandishing their swords. 5 Persia, Cush [c] and Put will be with them, all with shields and helmets, 6 also Gomer with all its troops, and Beth Togarmah from the far north with all its troops—the many nations with you.
7 ” ‘Get ready; be prepared, you and all the hordes gathered about you, and take command of them. 8 After many days you will be called to arms. In future years you will invade a land that has recovered from war, whose people were gathered from many nations to the mountains of Israel, which had long been desolate. They had been brought out from the nations, and now all of them live in safety. 9 You and all your troops and the many nations with you will go up, advancing like a storm; you will be like a cloud covering the land.
10 ” ‘This is what the Sovereign LORD says: On that day thoughts will come into your mind and you will devise an evil scheme. 11 You will say, “I will invade a land of unwalled villages; I will attack a peaceful and unsuspecting people—all of them living without walls and without gates and bars. 12 I will plunder and loot and turn my hand against the resettled ruins and the people gathered from the nations, rich in livestock and goods, living at the center of the land.” 13 Sheba and Dedan and the merchants of Tarshish and all her villages [d] will say to you, “Have you come to plunder? Have you gathered your hordes to loot, to carry off silver and gold, to take away livestock and goods and to seize much plunder?” ‘
14 “Therefore, son of man, prophesy and say to Gog: ‘This is what the Sovereign LORD says: In that day, when my people Israel are living in safety, will you not take notice of it? 15 You will come from your place in the far north, you and many nations with you, all of them riding on horses, a great horde, a mighty army. 16 You will advance against my people Israel like a cloud that covers the land. In days to come, O Gog, I will bring you against my land, so that the nations may know me when I show myself holy through you before their eyes.
17 ” ‘This is what the Sovereign LORD says: Are you not the one I spoke of in former days by my servants the prophets of Israel? At that time they prophesied for years that I would bring you against them. 18 This is what will happen in that day: When Gog attacks the land of Israel, my hot anger will be aroused, declares the Sovereign LORD. 19 In my zeal and fiery wrath I declare that at that time there shall be a great earthquake in the land of Israel. 20 The fish of the sea, the birds of the air, the beasts of the field, every creature that moves along the ground, and all the people on the face of the earth will tremble at my presence. The mountains will be overturned, the cliffs will crumble and every wall will fall to the ground. 21 I will summon a sword against Gog on all my mountains, declares the Sovereign LORD. Every man’s sword will be against his brother. 22 I will execute judgment upon him with plague and bloodshed; I will pour down torrents of rain, hailstones and burning sulfur on him and on his troops and on the many nations with him. 23 And so I will show my greatness and my holiness, and I will make myself known in the sight of many nations. Then they will know that I am the LORD.’
Ezekiel 39
1 “Son of man, prophesy against Gog and say: ‘This is what the Sovereign LORD says: I am against you, O Gog, chief prince of [e] Meshech and Tubal. 2 I will turn you around and drag you along. I will bring you from the far north and send you against the mountains of Israel. 3 Then I will strike your bow from your left hand and make your arrows drop from your right hand. 4 On the mountains of Israel you will fall, you and all your troops and the nations with you. I will give you as food to all kinds of carrion birds and to the wild animals. 5 You will fall in the open field, for I have spoken, declares the Sovereign LORD. 6 I will send fire on Magog and on those who live in safety in the coastlands, and they will know that I am the LORD.
7 ” ‘I will make known my holy name among my people Israel. I will no longer let my holy name be profaned, and the nations will know that I the LORD am the Holy One in Israel. 8 It is coming! It will surely take place, declares the Sovereign LORD. This is the day I have spoken of.
9 ” ‘Then those who live in the towns of Israel will go out and use the weapons for fuel and burn them up—the small and large shields, the bows and arrows, the war clubs and spears. For seven years they will use them for fuel. 10 They will not need to gather wood from the fields or cut it from the forests, because they will use the weapons for fuel. And they will plunder those who plundered them and loot those who looted them, declares the Sovereign LORD.
11 ” ‘On that day I will give Gog a burial place in Israel, in the valley of those who travel east toward [f] the Sea. [g] It will block the way of travelers, because Gog and all his hordes will be buried there. So it will be called the Valley of Hamon Gog. [h]
12 ” ‘For seven months the house of Israel will be burying them in order to cleanse the land. 13 All the people of the land will bury them, and the day I am glorified will be a memorable day for them, declares the Sovereign LORD.
14 ” ‘Men will be regularly employed to cleanse the land. Some will go throughout the land and, in addition to them, others will bury those that remain on the ground. At the end of the seven months they will begin their search. 15 As they go through the land and one of them sees a human bone, he will set up a marker beside it until the gravediggers have buried it in the Valley of Hamon Gog. 16 (Also a town called Hamonah [i] will be there.) And so they will cleanse the land.’
17 “Son of man, this is what the Sovereign LORD says: Call out to every kind of bird and all the wild animals: ‘Assemble and come together from all around to the sacrifice I am preparing for you, the great sacrifice on the mountains of Israel. There you will eat flesh and drink blood. 18 You will eat the flesh of mighty men and drink the blood of the princes of the earth as if they were rams and lambs, goats and bulls—all of them fattened animals from Bashan. 19 At the sacrifice I am preparing for you, you will eat fat till you are glutted and drink blood till you are drunk. 20 At my table you will eat your fill of horses and riders, mighty men and soldiers of every kind,’ declares the Sovereign LORD.
21 “I will display my glory among the nations, and all the nations will see the punishment I inflict and the hand I lay upon them. 22 From that day forward the house of Israel will know that I am the LORD their God. 23 And the nations will know that the people of Israel went into exile for their sin, because they were unfaithful to me. So I hid my face from them and handed them over to their enemies, and they all fell by the sword. 24 I dealt with them according to their uncleanness and their offenses, and I hid my face from them.
25 “Therefore this is what the Sovereign LORD says: I will now bring Jacob back from captivity [j] and will have compassion on all the people of Israel, and I will be zealous for my holy name. 26 They will forget their shame and all the unfaithfulness they showed toward me when they lived in safety in their land with no one to make them afraid. 27 When I have brought them back from the nations and have gathered them from the countries of their enemies, I will show myself holy through them in the sight of many nations. 28 Then they will know that I am the LORD their God, for though I sent them into exile among the nations, I will gather them to their own land, not leaving any behind. 29 I will no longer hide my face from them, for I will pour out my Spirit on the house of Israel, declares the Sovereign LORD.”
Footnotes:
Ezekiel 38:2 Or the prince of Rosh ,
Ezekiel 38:3 Or Gog, prince of Rosh,
Ezekiel 38:5 That is, the upper Nile region
Ezekiel 38:13 Or her strong lions
Ezekiel 39:1 Or Gog, prince of Rosh,
Ezekiel 39:11 Or of
Ezekiel 39:11 That is, the Dead Sea
Ezekiel 39:11 Hamon Gog means hordes of Gog.
Ezekiel 39:16 Hamonah means horde .
Ezekiel 39:25 Or now restore the fortunes of Jacob.
“An angel brought Smith some golden tablets full of divine revelation, but oh, wait, he lost them, but let’s still write a book of Mormon and have it be superior to the bible.”
Just like how, conveniently, no one can prove the red sea was parted (and so help me if you find some christian study that claims there is), or demonstrate turning water into wine.
I agree that mormonism is ridiculous, but I don’t think it’s any more ridiciulous than christianity.
This is basically all I’m hearing.
“God is a leprechaun with a horn.”
“NO!, God is a leprechaun without a horn. Do you understand how ridiculous a leprechaun with a horn is?? Sick cult wacko, how dare you say leprechauns can have horns!!!”
I say, give me one good reason to believe either. Neither can be proven, neither have any bearing on natural reality. They are both equally possibly, and unprovable. What makes makes christianity not a cult? Popularity?
“The atheists (majority) on this board would have to admit that the book of Mormon has far less credibility that even the Bible.”
Why?
Credibility is a highly subjective term, and it all depends on your world view. From the way I see it both religious claims are equally pointless.
“That makes perfect sense, to me. No mainstream Christian denomination believes that we can become like God, and that just further glorifies Him, plus we get our own little planets.”
So it’s ok to lie to yourself to feel important, but not THAT important.
“Let’s not forget the Mormon belief that there is no hell.”
One down, one to go
prophecy aside, you pulling russia and their mighty wooden tanks into this is completely ridiculous. first of all, russia has thus far very little interest in the region apart from selling arms to various ME countries. do you think russia would ever dare attack israel in light of american support for israel? how would they pull that off, logisticaly? some christians are just really looking forward to this world “ending”… is it really that bad, what we have here? shields and helmets… again, for someone who takes bible as the literal word of god, you are awfuly prone to interpreting what “god might have intended” every chance its convenient. make up your mind, either *literal* or not!
now as far as mormonism vs. christianity and their respective credibility, i totally agree with you. christianity is way more credible. also, star trek is way more credible than star wars :-P in other words, its all second class sci-fi to me…
How dare you call star trek second class sci-fi!!
first class if not better… they should make a class for star trek.
hehehe… forgive me father, for i have sinned… i didn’t mean it, i swear. cpt. picard FTW…
whoa, canibalism is fun ain’t it? is that really what god meant, lord spanky, or is there a hidden meaning in there?
“If God had said to someone 2,000 years ago, “Okay, these big things made of a substance called metal are going to fly over the land and drop huge canisters that are meant to explode,†do you really think that the man would have said, “Oh, okay. I understand.—
I thought god was all powerful. Surely making someone from 2000 years ago understand airplanes isn’t beyond god’s capable hands. Doesn’t god want people to believe in him/her/it? Why would god leave such ambiguity if it did? (and don’t give me that all too CONVENIENT “god works in mysterious ways” crap)
I mean, it wouldn’t even have to be detailed, but any child could understand the basic concept of an aircraft. Just saying “Flying metal objects dropping exploding canisters,” would be enough, but no… god chose to sound like ignorant people at the time, making stuff up.
If you squint hard enough, god totally makes sense.
D+H,
“The answer (of course) is that if the pocket watch contained within it instructions on how to replicate it that could themselves reproduce, if those instructions were subject to random mutation and if the watch contained the apparatus to replicate itself then I would assume it evolved.”
so who wrote the instructions and who put the watch together in the first place?
Lord Spanky: I would debate you on who was more Christian, a Mormon who allows all to claim Christ or a bigoted backwoods pseudo-Christian who thinks the only way to claim Christ is via the tripe spoonfed since the first pope, but that would be silly. Mormons are inherently Christian and since they have more members than most “Christian” churches put together, you don’t get to relegate them to “cult” status you bigoted idiot. The Mormon dogma is just as valid as any that claims only the Bible. If you claim Moses could see the finger of God write on tablets and Ezekial could see our time then you automatically lose the ability to say someone else seeing God is a whack job.
This is why I left all organized religion. The games of “My God is better than your God” always end in war. It is ludicrous to think a God you cannot prove even exists has commanded you to hate someone else for their God they cannot prove exists. You lash out with hatred and vitrol at the mere mention of the word Mormon for fear I might sully your Christianity by associating Mormons with it.
I am going to explain this in small words so your feeble brain grasps it: All Christians, Mormons and JW’s included, believe in slightly different versions of the same fairy tale. When you say Ezekial could see our time in a vision, Moses saw the finger of God, but somehow Joseph Smith was on shrooms, you lose all credibility. It is all the same f’ing story.
Jesus came as the Son of God made flesh, someone writes it down either through “direct witness” or in the case of prophets “visions brought by angels” and commanded this “new” doctrine be recorded for posterity. The followers of the old way cry “Heresy” and “cult” and viola, we have war (or in the case of Mormons the only religious based extermination order in U.S. history). Romans claimed Christianity as a cult because it detracted from their pantheon of Gods and killed them off for it. Then Constantine saw it as a way to better control the citizenry and decided to anoint himself the Pope. Martin Luther was hunted for breaking with the Catholic church for plenory indulgences. America was founded by religious sects fleeing for their own variations on the doctrine.
Millions of people have been killed “In the name of Christ”. Were the actual man we call Christ to see it he would hang his head in shame. Pick up a bible with the words of Christ in Red. Then read only those. You will find nothing of hate, malice, or judgement anywhere. Christ himself lead a good life and taught people to do the same. You do not have to believe in a bearded man in the sky to do that. When zealots forget the core of the doctrine was supposed to be love, people die.
wow, J you simply refuse to get the point….
“”If you squint hard enough, god totally makes sense.”"
no, you have to close your eyes completely for that.
Further, this quote boggled me:
“who’s corpses do you think the beasts are supposed to feast on?”
Do you not see how silly that is? I am talking about the ridiculous picture of beasts of the field feasting on corpses and you come back with that? Who the crap cares? We are talking about corpses. I don’t care if the bible said the French, it is still a looney story. God tells a man 2,600 years ago about a battle that ends with beasts of the field feasting on the Russians and you believe but mention a 14 year old kid in the early 1800s who says he saw God and he is on shrooms. Just plain silly.
alcari,
please, if your going to make pointless posts and empty isults, go somewhere else to do it. Either give me a positive argument for why it is impossible for God to exist, give an attempt to try to understand what a debate is, or at least concede the fact that maybe you are closing your eyes to the possibilty of a God because of your emotional insecurity.
And by the way, i keep asking people questions like on 177 is i am trying to get people to give another option besides God. No one has done this. So before you go on saying things like alcari said, approach with a legitimate option besides God.
J, in the scientific community most people dont worry about supporting options besides god. Theyre mainly concerned about discovering the truth about how the universe works. Some of the research that has been done in legitimate science punches holes in the idea of creationism. For example, recent studies in fruit flies support the theory of evolution, which i think has already been mentioned here(im sure you just missed that one).
The truth is no one knows the answer, i doubt anyone will figure out all the mysteries of the universe any time soon. But there simply is no scientific evidence to support that someone created everything. I know you could say “the absense of evidence is not the evidence of absense.” In some instances i guess that could make sense, however to be considered in scientific communities there has to be SOME kind of evidence. So i encourage you to begin research.
Ah Matt. First of all, Evolution doesn’t have to do with the creation of the universe. For all the “scientific” community knows, God could have created the universe and then used evolution on earth. Also, the fruit fly is a poor example. The fruit fly is an example of microevolution and is no where even close to the immense changes the theory of evolution theorizes. Your going to have to do better than one extremely insufficient example before you tell me to do some scientific research.
Phillip E. Johnson says this about the rules of science. “The essential point of creation has nothing to do with the timing of the mechanism the Creator chose to emply, but with the element of design and purpose. In the broadest sense, a ‘creationist’ is simply a person who believes the world is (and especially mankind) was designed, and exists for a purpose. With the issue defined that way, the question becomes: is mainstream science opposed to the possiblity that the natural world was deisnged by a creator for a purpose. If so, on what basis?”
These issues are not seperate but you can’t use evolution as prove against God. You cannot prove evolution either and there is not much basis to attempt to.
this is a really good articles as well…read
http://origins.org/articles/dembski_scienceanddesign.html
read the article. he’s using simple analogies to explain himself to a pre-determined conclusion. real impressive. note that the guy is associated with the discovery institute. DI is an organization with a very clear agenda, and science ain’t it. their goal is to politically promote creationism through the guise of “intelligent design”. it’s science, backwards, deduce proof from the claim.
http://www.au.org/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=5582&abbr=cs_
as oppposed to everyone else who assumes evolution and then runs around trying to find examples of it? you shouldn’t be concerned with who someone is associated with, but with their arguments.
to quote mr. dumbski:
“Intelligent Design opens the whole possibility of us being created in the image of a benevolent God … The job of apologetics is to clear the ground, to clear obstacles that prevent people from coming to the knowledge of Christ … And if there’s anything that I think has blocked the growth of Christ as the free reign of the Spirit and people accepting the Scripture and Jesus Christ, it is the Darwinian naturalistic view.”
ooops, there goes your scientific credibility…
NOONE assumes anything. noone with half a brain anyways. i will be perfectly happy either way once preseneted with the proof of such. DI and the gang have their minds already made up, now they are just trying to fabricate half-way coherent sci-fi that people can swallow.
to me, bible (and its countless interpretations) is not proof of anything. hear-say is not proof of anything. no matter how incomplete you consider evolution, it as a theory has FAR more proof backing it up. how many times do we have to go over this?
Plus boris, he makes a very interesting case. you can’t just say he’s using simple analogies to explain himself to a conclusion without showing why. You just told me you don’t like it. but you havn’t said anyting real that you have against it besides that. you have not showed me where it is wrong.
that was a subjective statement that had nothing to do with his actual scientific reasoning. You should know that. Everyone assumes!!! Evolutionists assume their beliefs and go and try to find evidence for it. Creationists are not different.
post 189 shows how ignorant you really are if you think that evolution has much more proof. It has no basis. No one can reasonably explain why it even start, much less find “FAR” more contrete evidence for it.
that’s the thing, i can’t. much like i can’t prove that there is no god. but i don’t have to since i never made that claim. others have made that claim, and those others want ME to prove THEM wrong. well, it don’t work that way. mr. dempski has clearly shown his agenda. hence, whatever he writes i will assume works towards that pre-determined agenda. all of this has nothing to do with how real scientists work, but gives illusion of such.
well if you cant show why mr. dempski is wrong then why would you ever say he is wrong. If you say there is much more evidence for evolution, you need to back that up. I backed up my claim (and a i barely god started), you need to back up yours. What is with you? Its scientific. Someone starts with hypothesis and try to show why it is correct. Mr. dempski is doing the same. he has an idea, then tells you why it is reasonable. It is no different from what evolutionists do. That is for sure.
got started**
look dude, you’re like a broken record.
here:
http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/
THIS makes sense to me. i have read enough about the DI and observed their actions to know they are not thrustworthy in any matters related to science. end of story.
As usual, you have not shown me why dempski is wrong so i am afriad i cant take you seriously.
@J
my heart is broken… :-(
im not intereted in playing that game..thanks though
So, in conclusion.
Those claiming there is a god, demand those not believing in one to prove there is no god but those not believing in god are not allowed to demand those believing in god to prove that there is a god?
Did I get it right? It seems to me to be the gist of the long debate?