Religious people are all suffering from blind eyes, ignorance and lack of evidence. This is all rooted from human selfishness. Can you tell me the one single function of human spirit for your God’s sake? It is all your brain… Wake up! There is no God!

Please i encourage all who read this to frequently visit http://www.richarddawkins.net/home to see many interesting arguments.

“They can both consist of the same number of interconnected quantities of matter/energy/etc.”

should be:

They can both consist of the same quantities of interconnected matter/energy/etc.

…its late

I did not say complexity is not a measurable thing. I said complexity is an abstract term that is merely a perception. Good and Evil can be measured in much the same way. i.e. How many people ultimately benefit from something, how good feelings are, that sort of thing… Now you can measure good and evil and complexity all you want, and we can perceive them to be as real as we want, but they are real ONLY in that we perceive them that way. Break your definition of complexity down to the most basic level and a human is no more complex than a cement block. They can both consist of the same number of interconnected quantities of matter/energy/etc.

The ‘complexity is not a measureable thing’ comment is, I think, a bit misguided. Complexity is defined as “The quality or condition of being complex”, and complex is defined as “Consisting of interconnected or interwoven parts”. This means that the more complex something is, the more parts it consists of, allowing that the parts are interconnected. A cell is complex because it consists of many organelles that are interconnected. You are more complex, however, because you consist of a large quantity of cells that are interconnected, each one consisting of a large number of organelles that art interconnected…

You see where I’m going with this? You want a measure of complexity, simply measure (a) how many interconnected parts are within that thing, and (b) how interconnected they are. Simple, quantifiable, and logical. Also, it has absolutely nothing to do with how you see things; your body is complex, even if you don’t know it is.

In response to ” Why then would a complex universe need a complex god? and what makes you think he created the universe for us? “, I don’t think that the universe _requires_ a complex god. You’re thinking I’m an ID wingnut; I understand the process, and realize that the _requirement_ simply doesn’t exist. But, you have to admit, in a universe of infinite complexity, the _possibility_ exists. Now, the probablity is up for question. You would put the probablity of a being of infinite (or approaching) complexity as minute. I’d put it at about the same as DNA spontaneously forming. (That’s not to say I don’t think that DNA spontaneously formed… It didn’t, quite, but the process is pretty well explained by Evolution and such.)

In other words, I’m not saying that because our universe exists, God has to exist. I’m saying that, with the level of complexity in our universe, it’s a definite possibility.

Now, after all that, it really comes down to a gut feeling. Really. Because, in the end, we simply do not have enough evidence to go on. Either pro or con, neither side can say for certain, and all you have are hunches and circular reasoning. So, I follow my hunch that says a God exists, and He cares. You follow your hunch that he doesn’t either exist or care. (It’d be kinda hard to care if you don’t exist, right? :) )

And what about it being a defense mechanism? Sure, it could be. It could also be that your refusal to see God as being a possibilty is also a defense mechanism. You don’t want your actions to be judged by anything other than yourself. Having something that is bigger, more powerful, and infintely wiser than you trying to tell you what to do? I mean, who wants to answer to someone else in everything they do? Hell, not even me! Especially when that authority is always so damn sure of itself… So, instead, you deny your own ‘hunch’ on such a basic level as to not even realise it is there.

I’m not saying that that is the case. But it’s as logical as saying that my hunch is simply a fear of death run amok. Both are possible. You have to choose what you believe; it cannot be proven. Hence it being _believe_, not _know_.

You can choose not to believe, too. But that does not say “God doesn’t exist.” That says “I don’t care if God exists or not.” If you say God does not exist, you have a belief. One that is just as valid, IMHO, as saying He does. The only thing I object to is stating that “God does not exist” is not a belief.

While I agree that as far as we know, it may very well be possible for a being with understanding far surpassing our own to create a universe, but there is no reason to believe that we were created this way. There is also no reason to believe that such a creator knew we would arise in such a universe, or if it exists, knows of our existence.

After all, the beginning of life on earth was more than likely a product of chance, and the universe is so vast that it may be likely that life would occur in one form or another, but it is not guaranteed.

If something created our universe, and we came into existence through evolution (which we did, there really is no arguing that point), it stands to reason that it is not irresponsible to just let us die, but merely a logical step in the game of life and evolution. It does not stand to reason that a god needs to be responsible, and even if it was that it would stand to gain from our complexity.

“That is also why I’m willing to accept your belief that god does not exist as a possibility; your gut tells you different than mine tells me.”

I’m glad you’re willing to see all possibilities, and I am as well, but consider this: It is perfectly logical that these “gut feelings” about god or “feeling god’s presence” are a natural defense mechanism to keep up stable. I mean, the real reason we fear death in the first place is because we need to for survival. It stands to reason that those that fear death more survive more, and it also stands to reason that such intense fear may lead to mental instability, which is why such a god feeling may have arisen in our genes.