How I missed this one, I’ll never know. So thanks to The Right Reverend Rabbi Judah for the tip.
A group of Orthodox Jews in Los Angeles is trying to erect an eruv near a synagogue on Venice Beach’s boardwalk. An eruv is essentially a magic enclosure that allows Orthodox Jews to circumvent certain oppressive traditions within its confines. For instance, Jews are not allowed to perform some basic activities like pushing a stroller outside on the Shabbat, but slap together an eruv and you’re good to go. You can read more about eruvs here.
The proposal calls for several miles worth of 200-pound test fishing line to be strewn about the Venice Beach Boardwalk area. Typically in cities, eruvs are tied to existing structures like telephone poles, but a beach is quite different. The Jews suggest that the line be tied to existing lamp poles and signs. To fill the void in certain parts of the beach, 20-foot poles would be planted to provide the necessary connection.
Needless to say, many people are not too keen on the idea. Some are concerned about the poles being an eyesore, while others are concerned about the impact on local birds and their nests. Others find the use of public property for religious reasons troublesome.
My only beef with this issue is it’s utter stupidity and the willingness for Jews to tolerate it. They obviously don’t like the archaic rules, so instead of utilizing common sense and vanquishing them, they subvert them by finding loopholes in the system… as if that’s ok with God. Why can’t the Jews just admit that some of their traditions are outdated and just plain silly? For instance here’s a snippet from the article about a Rabbi’s concern for a family’s child who can’t go outside on the Shabbat:
We have a family with a child in a wheelchair and it’s not just getting to synagogue for her, it’s getting outdoors. It is a terrible thing for an 8-year-old.
So this kid is forced to stay indoors on Saturday because of some insane demand from God? Seriously, what the hell kind of God doesn’t want your wheelchair-ridden child to be outside, enjoying the glorious natural beauty that he supposedly created!
If there are any Jews reading this, please make me see the light.
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Yay for magical barriers of God-power.
Orthodox Judaism is very much about the letter of the law rather than the spirit.
hey, they should all go and buy my portable eruv for only $29,99.
I personally think it’s the epitomy of denail if you subvert your archaic believes with a new set of even more redicilous ones.
So God’s wrath is approximately measured at 200 pounds or less, then? Because otherwise you’ll need stronger fishing line.
I didn’t know this, it’s quite shocking in my eyes. Why’s this not a bigger issue in religious debates? Or have I missed the ones who address it?
Mike, these eruvs are apparently very common. This is the first I’ve seen them, but do a search on Google and you’ll see them all over the US. Weird stuff if you ask me.
gasmonso
yé.
I recently reconstructed my house’s roof with lead so God can’t see that i masturbate at home. This way i’ll go to heaven.
An eruv is not a loophole at all. There are very few areas where there is a Biblical proscription against carrying on Shabbos. In most areas carrying is only forbidden rabbinically. It was the Rabbis who prohibited carrying, and it was they who enacted the laws of eruvin to allow carrying.
“An eruv is not a loophole at all.”
umm… It’s still stupid. Like, Scientology stupid.
It was the Rabbis who prohibited carrying
I guess that’s one way to get out of chores, god said so. Cheaper than a moving van. Or caravan.
Before you call something stupid do your homework.
What about these idiotic rituals deserves further study? When people read far enough into religions that they lose the supposedly good messages you religious types are always going on about, lose touch with reality and perform such completely asinine rituals, it is always stupid. This one’s just kind of funny and stupid.
I suppose I should be glad the orthy jews are just keeping it silly like the scientologists and not blowing up embassies and abortion clinics.
Hehe, this is sooo… well I cant think of anything similar really^^
Anyway, what if I was to cut one of these fishing lines without them seeing it, would I then condemn them to eternal damnation?? Cant wait to see the new terror kit, no bombs, no guns etc, just a pair of nail clippers^^ (this does indeed explain why I cant take my nail clippers onboard a plain)
For someone who lives in Australia and has never met anyone Jewish, and who is largely ignorant of the entire culture (I don’t get half the Jewish references in the Simpsons) these things just sound absolutely bizzare. Magical fences which circumnavigate religious doctrine? Sounds awfully convenient.
But Christianity has some pretty silly looking traditions too, so I’m just going to sit here bewildered here at both. In general I don’t like tradition, mostly because traditions are a pathetically nostalgic link to a past which is never coming back.
Learn from the past, enjoy the present and plan for the future I say. Don’t get bogged down in unimportant detail from the past.
I enjoy tradition;
You make up some stupid law as a drunk legislator, people laugh at you and nobody cares.
20 years later, no one remembers it was just a joke and the police and judges start using it to prosecute.
50 years later, everyone respect it because ‘it’s teh law!!!!11!!1′
or tradition or whatever. Warped, no good reason to exist and a ‘bad’ begining. Tradition. You do it cuz you do it. Real nice.
And you would think after Auschwitz that they’d be leery of fences…
I was not looking to debate the halachic (legal) underpinnings of eruvin on a blog whose credo is anti-religion. My objective was just to clarify basic misunderstandings.
I find it ironic that on the one hand there are those individuals who scoff at the very notion of an eruv calling it a legal fiction that does not remotely symbolize a wall, yet on the other hand, there are those who claim that an eruv is offensive because the wall it represents suggests the poles and wires that the Holocaust survivors got away from.
@ Anon
And you would think after Auschwitz that they’d be leery of fences…
OUCH!!!
lineman, I think most people here think it’s stupid because it is AND we (an assumption) don’t want public property used by any religions. I think all religions are stupid, and they all have these loopholes that circumvent what they state then doublespeak morons into believing it still.
lineman, first off… this is not an anti-religion blog. I don’t care what religion you practice or what you believe in. What I take issue with is people who use their religion to impose their beliefs on others like kids, homosexuals, etc. If people would keep their religion to themselves this site wouldn’t exist.
gasmonso
American law allows eruvin. An eruv is not a religious symbol but rather an object with religious significance to those who need it.
No one needs an eruv, they simply (and irrationally) believe they need one. If there were no eruvin at all, they’d still be alive and well.
I probably do not need many things you need either but I do not belittle you. It’s called tolerance and respect for others.
The idea that I might need something that you do not is irrelevant. My point is that an eruv is not a need, it is a desire. If you can demonstrate to me that an eruv is a need, than I will cease to ‘belittle’ those who build them. It’s no different than the conspiracy theorists who claim they ‘need’ tin foil hats to block out the mind-control rays.
This is all semantics. It may not be a need for a Shabbos observer but it most definitely enhances the day for those who are observant. Why should this make a difference to you?
heh… i’m sure drugs enhance a junkies day. basically what it boils down to, is that “Shabbos observers” have deemed their nutty religion too inconvenient, and created an artificial construct that lets them circumvent the religion’s arbitrary rules.
Why does it make a difference to me? Irrational beliefs breed irrational beliefs. “I’m building this fense because its part of God’s law” isn’t much different from “I’m giving people who believe and practice X less rights because it’s not inline with God’s law”. Taken to an extreme (as it has been throughout history), people could claim “I’m going to kill those who don’t obey God’s law because God commanded us to do so”.
In addition to promoting irrationality, eruvin are also funny from a non-religious point of view. We believe that Jewish laws were made up by man and latter attributed to God. Because of this some of the laws that made sense a few thousand years ago have become irrelevant and arbitrary. To us, an eruv is an arbitrary, made up way to circumvent some arbitrary made up laws. It’s like an obsessive compulsive person who doesn’t allow himself/herself to leave the house without exiting through the main door backwards.
LOL, well said sidfaiwu!
gasmonso
It is only irrational to one who is unfamiliar with the underlying reasons for eruvin (I am not going to explain it on this blog; it has no relevancy to you). Unlike the example you gave the laws of eruvin cannot be taken to the extreme, since, as you stated, it is not needed, it is only desired. (You will have a hard time illustrating where Jewish law has actually been taken to the extreme of killing people in G-d’s name.) You are using the issue of eruvin as a platform for your views that Jewish law is manmade. I have explained that we believe that eruvin is a rabbinical injunction not Biblical, so we agree on something.
More so, the American court system has always allowed for eruvin mainly because it does not at all affect those who have no use for it.
What about those people who use Venice Beach and don’t want their views spoiled by twenty foot poles? Not to mention the wildlife (that’s MUCH more important to me than any religion) that end up entangled in this stupid line? People in California complain about the color of a house’s trim, of course they’ll complain about another eyesore. One of the main problems with religion is they want their “freedoms” respected but could give a crap about anyone else’s.
What I find interesting is that apparently they’re not observing because they want to, like it gives them inner peace or makes them feel at one with god or something. They’re acknowledging that they are compelled to observe and finding a nice loophole, as you say. Maybe it’s some insight into why religious people seem to think that without religion people would go around killing and raping each other. Because their books tell them not to kill and to do some random stuff one day a week. Without religion, they wouldn’t be doing the random stuff, so surely it follows that without religion they’d kill too.
Or maybe they just need to believe that their religious beliefs are necessary to be moral so they can justify all the time they spend on rituals and dogma.
“An eruv is not a loophole at all.”
This is a dubious statement at best. So your god prohibits certain activities on the holy day, except if you stand inside some sort of symbolic outline? Why would god care about such an outline? It’s like inventing a rule saying god prohibits murder unless you’re standing on one leg, in which case he’s all for it.
“An eruv is not a religious symbol but rather an object with religious significance to those who need it.”
object with religious signifigance == religious symbol
The are equivalent.
“It is only irrational to one who is unfamiliar with the underlying reasons for eruvin (I am not going to explain it on this blog; it has no relevancy to you)”
You’re not going to explain it because there isn’t any real explanation. It’s a rule of arbitrary nonsense.
“More so, the American court system has always allowed for eruvin mainly because it does not at all affect those who have no use for it.”
And yet Jews whine when Mormons posthumously baptise Jews into the Mormon church. That’s also something that doesn’t effect anybody. You’re being a hypocrite.
Elliot – The poles are only extensions of existing poles. No one knows what the impact of the strings on the wildlife will be, but you are already certain about it. I have no doubt that in the end, if the experts are certain that it will impact the wildlife, the eruv will need to be moved. Most eruvin are not noticeable at all.
Singe – Again G-D has nothing to do with this since eruvin is rabbinical.
The American court system does differentiate between religious symbols and objects with religious significance. So you are disagreeing with the court system.
Again, it does not affect you so the underlying reason is totally irrelevant.
Maybe some genealogists are bothered what the Mormons are doing, but most Jews could not care less.
I’ve been hoping that the Eruv in lower Manhatten would be restored so I can wheel my grand-daughter around on the Sabbath. Hence I have put “Eruv” in my Google search and end up with all sorts of fascinating sites, such as this one. If for no other reason, Eruv’s were invented to bring out these sorts of discussions. To me an Eruv is a test of a community, for both the Jews and non Jews in the community. If an Eruv can be established this says to me that the Jews of that community are able to work together in an important project that is a key to Jewish observance (and it’s a given that observant Jews have the right and responsibility to define what constitutes Jewish observance and the reality is that the geographical Eruv is a key component)and further an indicatino that their non Jewish neighbors are also willing to “tolerate” this diverse approach (and I also take as a given that respect for diversity is a goal of American society). The Eruv must not, in my opinion, create problems for those who do not use it and I can’t comment on the Venice Beach situation, not knowing anything about it. However, in most cases, no one who isn’t interested even knows the Eruv is present. But what is interesting to me on this list is that so many folks cannot accept the concept in principal, they think it’s silly and wrong etc. To me (and I have a PhD in Neural Engineering) the Eruv is a truly brilliant mechanism for both preserving Jewish law which has, after all, been around longer than most other religions practiced in the US, and making life a little easier for those who do so practice. We “sell” our bread and booze before Passover, and this “silliness” helps create one of the best and beautiful Jewish events, the Passover Seder — even Jesus apparently went to one. As a Neural Engineer I deal a lot with interfaces between the world at large and the nervous system. We survive because of those interfaces, otherwise we would have to simply remain forever in the womb. We build all sorts of shelters, homes, walls, etc. to “protect” us from the physical environment. Is it so strange to anticipate that there are spiritual environments as well and we are also building spiritual walls there as well? This isn’t magic, as someone called it, is engineering in a nonmaterial sphere (or do you believe that all that is there is what we can sense with our 6 senses — that’s pretty silly as well in my opinion). Judaism is based on building boundaries, often in time such as the Sabbath but also in space, such as the Eruv. If you don’t want to follow Judiasm, Kol HaKovod, as the saying goes, but what motivates those who have to call it silly? The environmental movement has taught us that all things can be linked together. Well in the Jewish world view “though shalt not murder” is linked to Eruv in an transcendant way that lies at the heart of Judiasm and of the Jewish interpretation of Gods message to humanity.
Sorry, I’ve got a few more comments. I had to go out and finish taking down my Succah before it started snowing. I guess you could call the Succah another example of religious idiocy. After all why would anyone build a temporary structure in the middle of October, eat meals and perhaps sleep in it, insure that the roof is somewhat open to the sky and made completely out of natural materials. Afterall, why give up our safe and sound and controlled lives, and homes of brick and wood and expose ourselves to the vagaries and uncertainties of weather and wind and life. But wait a second … lets focus on these things for 7 or 8 days every year at an appointed time. Maybe that’s not such a bad idea after all. How much control do we really have over the important things in our lives?
In any case let’s get back to the assertion that “An eruv is essentially a magic enclosure that allows Orthodox Jews to circumvent certain oppressive traditions within its confines.” First of all, Judaism doesn’t allow magic and in the “good old days” magic was probably punishable by stoning. Fortunately things have evolved and those who do wish to practice magic are free to do so, albeit is isn’t Judaism. Secondly it’s not just Orthodox Jews who follow the practices of the Eruv, many Conservative Jews do as well. If you happen to be in the LA in the vicinity of the intersection of Pico and Robertson on a Saturday afternoon, you will see many Jews of all sizes shapes and garments walking happily to and from their synagogues and one anothers homes in one of the most vibrant Jewish communities in North America. This Los Angeles Eruv (http://www.laeruv.com/) helps to establish this community or more correctly set of overlapping Jewish communities. Check out the Eruv map on the lower right hand of the website and then try to find it. But the observant Jews of LA know that it’s there and indeed often check every Friday afternoon to make sure its intact. Wait a second, maybe this is magic. How could this symbolic boundary help create a more vibrant committed Jewish community. Because Judaism is based on boundaries and a key boundary is the boundary in time between one day of the week, called the Sabbath and the other 6 days. Boy, if you think an Eruv is hard to fatham at least it has a physical manifestation. What could be special about a day. Shouldn’t the days just run on day after day without any distinctions. Perhaps, but that’s not the Jewish way, we try to sanctify time and space and give it special meaning — called Holiness. Whoops — how can we measure Holiness, where to we buy the Holiness meter? Sorry, can’t do it. All I can say is try it, and perhaps you will like it. So what the Eruv does, in my opinion, is build up an attitude in the consciousness of the adherent, an attitude that says that one way we honor the Sabbath, and hence our Creator and/or our families and/or our ancestors, is to not carry in a public domain. But we reserve the right to expand that domain — just as we can carry in our home and in a walled in backyard, we can carry in a community surrounded by an Eruv knowing that we have the full support of the Jewish tradition in so doing. I love to sing the America the Beautiful because I’m proud to be an American, and I love to walk within an Eruv on the Sabbath because I’m proud to be a Jew. Is it idiocy? Perhaps, but what do you have to offer as an alternative. Do you really think you can discover all there is to discover through physics and mathematics? If anything is idiotic it is that view. There is no scientific evidence to support, rather the boundaries of our scientific knowledge have never stopped expanding and the end is not in sight — just new and better questions. Our physics is limited, and our math is limited, and indeed our brains our limited but while we strive to use our limited tools to understand the human condition, which is a good thing to do, we can also strive to use our religions to find other dimensions of truth, dimensions which transcend physics but intersect our world — the Eruv is one such intersection so ignore it at your peril — you will be missing out on one of the gateways to awareness.
Wait a minute, aren’t we completly overlooking the practical side of this discussion? Rabbi’s like every other human being, must come in a variety of sizes. How can a smallish ,say 100 pound, Jewish woman possibly be expected to carry a 200 pound Rabbi whether there is the biggest strongest ERUV or not????
@lineman, the article also states the where the are gaps poles would need to be erected. As for the wildlife I was speculating, I’m sure we’ve all seen birds entangled in fishing line.
@rleesmith, religion has nothing to do with truth, it sprung up from primitive man’s need to understand the forces being observed in the world. It evolved into a means to control the masses, unfortunately, once power and money entered the picture evolution stopped or was stopped. I can’t understand every scientific principle I’ve been exposed to nor can I understand every religious principle espoused but when push comes to shove I go with reason and logic. If religion stuck to philosophy and didn’t try become reality I’d have no problem with it, but religion isn’t philosophy it’s mythology.
As an aside, what happens if an eruv is vandalized or damaged? What if no one notices and continue the prohibited behavior are they breaking the law? Can an eruv be ‘reconsecrated’ as it were?
“”we can also strive to use our religions to find other dimensions of truth, dimensions which transcend physics but intersect our world — the Eruv is one such intersection so ignore it at your peril — you will be missing out on one of the gateways to awareness.”"
well, that would require your universe to be completely different from the one the rest of us live in, but, in the words of Lineman: “it does not affect you so the underlying reason is totally irrelevant.”
@lineman and rleesmith
What we’re all trying to say is this: if you don’t want to follow your laws then don’t. don’t go making up any poor excuses and claim that you’re still the image of piety. To create a nice analogy, it’s no different from saying to yourself: “I won’t make any lefthand turns on tuesdays, except when wearing a blue hat.”
See that’s a completely pointless, self-imposed rule. It’s overruled by another pointless rule, with the sole reason of being able to say that you’re still following the first one.
now, you can rationalise any of the above rules in any way you want, but they remain pointless.
Also, does this mean it’s ok to put my own cables on the phonemasts? I’ve got some nice idea’s for them. I mean if your religion is allowed to put up random wires without good reason, so should I.
As far as the technicalities of an Eruv, I plead ignorance. Check out the LA Eruv website, perhaps they can explain the rules. But it’s essential to realize that these things are all done according to logic and rules. As with any legal system one must start with a given and the given is the Torah as interpreted by the Rabbis. Of course if you reject the starting point, there is no basis for the rest, but as in a mathematical system the integrety of the system can be judged based on it’s logic. So one starts with a rule that on the Sabbath one cannot do “work”. That leads to the question what is meant by “work”. Over the centuries the Rabbis have interpreted that — there is no black and white set of rules, human beings are needed to determine what the rules mean and how to apply them in a given place or time. One of the relatively basic rules is that one cannot carry objects in a public domain on the Sabbath. This raises another question — what is a public domain? Centuries of scholarly analysis have logically come to the the conclusion that there are private domains and public domains and that a properly constructed eruv can encircle a private domain, thus allowing one who is committed to the system to carry things within the eruv but not outside of it. Alcari claims we are not within the system if we utilize an eruv. What he is really saying is that he is an absolutest, all or nothing — either accept the most stringent restrictions of accept no restrictions. Judaism as practiced my most of us is not a fundamenlist/absolutest religion. We seek easy ways out when we can. We eat meat even though vegetarianism is probably the performed form according to the Bible. But we compromise and only eat some kinds of meat. We don’t eat Pork — is that meaningful — only if you want to be part of this system. There are Jews known as Karaites who do practice a much more rigid form of Judaism and reject Rabbinical interpretations. Perhaps if there are any Karaites on this list, they can chime in with their views of the eruv.
Rleesmith – Your wasting your time trying to explain to these people.
“”We seek easy ways out when we can.”"
thank you.
@lineman
Actually, he’s explained it very well. At least Rlee realises it is rather odd, but decides to live with it. That’s more then I can say about you (it seems).
Hello lineman,
“You will have a hard time illustrating where Jewish law has actually been taken to the extreme of killing people in G-d’s name”
If they haven’t, then they are not very law-abiding Jews. Read Deuteronomy Chapter 13, which I believe is part of the Torah. It compels Jews to stone to death anyone that tries to lead them from God and to utterly destroy any city (along with its inhabitants) that worships any other God. It seems that Jews are bound by their own laws to kill in the name of God.
Sweet! Perfect business opportunity! You could sell belts but call them portable eruvs… I wonder if God would be cool if you ate trafe while wearing one. ;)
And i’m sure Sid could point out a couple of dozen more, It’s a skill I wish i had :)
.
hey josh, if you do do that, I expect at least 20% for the idea.
Could we use some of the dark fiber we have to create an eruv all around the US? Get a Rabbi to bless (do Rabbi’s bless things?)the net then everyone with access is already within an eruv.
Another advantage for a Eruv which perhaps will interest you scoffers, atheists,whomever. Real estate prices will go up. So if there are too many observant Jews in your neighborhood and you want to get away from them (us), join the eruv committee, put up and Eruv, and sell your home. Here is an article from England:
http://www.totallyjewish.com/news/national/?content_id=4752……
Ben Russell, owner of Taylor Hawkins estate agents, Edgware Way, told TJ: “There has been unprecedented demand for houses of all sizes within the eruv ever since the proposed boundaries were announced three years ago. There has also been a natural influx of frum families into the area from fading communities further afield, regardless of the eruv.
“These two factors have resulted in house price increases far greater than average national trends. ….
Agents at Melvin Jacobs also field daily enquiries about houses within the eruv. ..
He added that he was sure some were buying not with the intention of making use of the eruv but in the knowledge that property within its boundaries will prove a good investment for the future.
Other areas look set to share in Edgware’s excitement as they put into place their own plans for communal eruvs. In Borehamwood and Elstree the scheme is backed by both the Federation and United Synagogues and the eruv committee has been working with the local council in a bid to complete work by the end of next year.
There could also be a second eruv in Barnet, covering areas of Woodside Park, Whetstone and North Finchley, with officials there already in the process of inspecting the eruv boundaries.
I’m waiting to hear the idea to have NASA construct an orbital Eruv. Then as long as we stay on Earth, we’ll be safe from god.
Okay i live in israel and i have a serious question here:
Will the jews have the right to punish others for not following jewish laws inside the Eruv?
I’m asking because that’s what happening over here. There simply are some areas that are so religious that you can pretty much say good bye to your car(and probably prepare for the hospital) if you drive into one on saturday.
If it’s that way then i SERIOUSLY think this thing needs to be bombed off the face of this planet. If not, i don’t give a damn(althoug they should just draw a line in the sand instead of poles and stuff)
To agony: So far as I know there is no basis in Jewish law for punishing others, Jews or non Jews, for infractions of Jewish law. However, fanatics exist in every religion and culture who will attempt to use force to enforce what they think is correct. In any city or country one visits i would recommend that you use your common sense when going into areas inhabited by violent fanatics who are likely to break the law and attack you for any number of things — such as having more money then them, having a different skin color, or not observing their religious rules.
To humanistic Jones; I haven’t been able to find anything on three dimensional eruvs. However, there is increasing thought going into how to observe Shabbat when in orbit. For example, how do you know when it’s the seventh day? Check out “Shabbat in Space” if you are interested.
Hello Rleesmith,
There is a basis in Jewish law for punishing others. See post #42.