Recently I had a discussion with a Russian-Jewish friend about Chanukah and the history surrounding it. Yea, I know what you’re thinking… Wow gasmonso, you sure have an exciting life… but please bear with me. We talked about what Chanukah represents and so on.
The discussion then turned to Christmas and how it is a celebration of the birth of Jesus Christ, the Son of God, which has a very apparent religious meaning. I pointed out that Chanukah seems to be more of a historical account of a group of people. Now here is where it got a little interesting.
Now my friend is a Russian Jew and was brought up under the Soviet system where religion and the belief in God were all but squashed. As a result, many Russian Jews don’t believe in God. But I know that according to Judaism, there is a belief in God. When I mentioned that, my friend said I understand that… however my mother was Jewish and therefore I too am Jewish.
I of course responded and said that Jews believe in God though. How could you be Jewish and not believe in God? From there it got a little hazy and we both were a little stumped.
So I pose the question to the religious collective that is Religious Freaks. Are Jews a race, a religion, or both?
If you chose to respond, please include your religion or belief system so I see how others perceive Judaism.
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December 7th, 2006 at 10:56 pm
Jews, I think, were a religion that became a race. The history of Jewish people as far as I know has been mostly one of exclusion. Jews are always singled out. As a result they end up with other Jews as their best social line (to a much stronger degree than other religions). This is a consequence of their isolation from the ‘mainstream’. Over time as the bloodlines of Jewish families stayed consistent and other groups continued to mix Jews became more distinctive in their hereditary traits to the point that I think they can now be called an actual race.
I think the same thing could happen with any group. Isolate them long enough and as the heterogenous ‘outsiders’ continue to change the isolated group will begin to stand out. Things like Tasacs disease have become a significant enough difference that it seems Jews are a race in and of themselves.
Keep in mind that this is largely speculation on my part and I actually know very little about Jewish people, but am going on what I know.
So far as my religion, I am an atheist in the Dawkins sense (can’t prove God, can’t disprove God, but all that dogma is a little much). Are there any Jewish people that can add to this?
December 8th, 2006 at 10:37 am
I am of the same problem: Russian - Jew.
The thing is that you are Jew only from Jew stand point. Everyone else should not even care about it.
Jew is not a race; it is a nationality. Russian - Jew is sort of and African - American (99.99% of the time this term is misused; it does not determine your race, it is only suggests that you are the mix of Native American and Black, which is not accurate either). It is a mix.
I, though, consider myself Ukrainian.
December 8th, 2006 at 10:47 am
I agree with I Are, race is an ill-defined term. He is also right that is more accurate (and meaningful) to call them a nationality, that is a "people who share common customs, origins, history, and frequently language" and religion. definition reference: nation. (n.d.). The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition. Retrieved December 08, 2006, from Dictionary.com website: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/nation
December 8th, 2006 at 10:50 am
Those looking to persecute the Jews seem to view it as a race. I knew a guy in college who was a skinhead and to him if your last name had "stein" you might as well be a dog. To him, someone with Jewish ancestry who was Christian was some sort of spy planted to destroy Christianity from within. On the other hand, someone who converted to Judism was a Jew-lover, not an actual Jew. This guy was a real nutjob.One thing I found out as a missionarry is that people claim to be all sorts of religions without believing them. We were taught to start our message by bringing up common ground:Elder Smith: Hi, we’d like to share a message, are you religious?Csaba: I’m Catholic.Elder Smith: That’s great, then we both believe in God.Csaba: I don’t believe in God.Elder Smith: But I thought you said you were Catholic.Csaba: I am. My parents were Catholic and sometimes I go to mass.I met literally thousands of Catholics that didn’t believe in God while in Hungary. So if Catholics don’t have to believe in God to be Catholic, why should Jews?Biblically though, 3 words get tossed around. Isrealite: A decendant of Isreal. There were 12 tribes of decendants.Jew: A decendant of Judah. Jews are one tribe out of the 12. They became the a dominant tribe and built Jeruselem.Gentile: Anyone that is not a decendant of Isreal.These words got shoplifted by missionary based protestant churches:Isrealite: A member of God’s True Church © Gentile: Anyone else.Also see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Who_is_a_Jew%3F
December 8th, 2006 at 2:52 pm
(Frequent lurker, I don’t think I’ve posted here before). I often hear the phrase “Hebrew people of the Jewish faith” to remove that ambiguity, some non-Jewish friends from Jewish families use this distinction.
Since it was requested, I personally am an atheist of the god not disprovable, but no compelling evidence and no need school.
December 8th, 2006 at 3:15 pm
Wow, it looks like I’m the perfect person to respond. :-)
It’s not just a religion and it’s definitely not a race. Ashkenazi Jews, Sephardi Jews, and Ethiopian Jews (for example) can not make up a single race under any reasonable definition of race. A very large percentage of people who would call themselves Jews do not believe in God, including some 25% of Israelis. I’m not sure one can say exactly what “Jewish” is, since people will disagree about who is and who is not a Jew. (E.g. Reform Judaism allows patrilineal descent, Orthodox Judaism does not recognize Reform conversions, Hitler seemed to believe even one drop of Jewish blood, etc.)
I consider myself Jewish despite being an atheist because I was raised Jewish, my parents and ancestors were Jewish, I feel at home in (at least one form of) “Jewish” culture, other people see me as Jewish, etc.
December 8th, 2006 at 3:52 pm
Beliefs are nothing. Culture is everything. Religion is merely an artifact of the culture which is propagated via tradition. The Jewish people have a very strong sense of tradition. I am a European-American Atheist, my girlfriend is Jewish, both in the religious and hereditary sense.
December 8th, 2006 at 3:58 pm
Tough question… I think it’s a religion and a culture (not really race).
December 8th, 2006 at 4:24 pm
I think the label “Jew” and the label “Christian” have a lot in common with the label gentleman. Once they meant somehting very specific. A Jew was a member of the nation of Israel and since Israel was more or less theocratic it was both a religion and I suppose an identifier of ethnicity/nationality. Being a Christian meant you were a follower of Christ. Being a gentleman meant you owned land. Now the labels are largely meaningless. By that I mean that if someone self-identifies as one of those things it would be foolish (and possibly dangerous) to contradict them.
December 8th, 2006 at 5:56 pm
We’re supposed to think it’s a word with interchangeable meanings.
The religion itself directly refers to a specific race of people identified as the descendants of Isaac, which is not good. There’s no way around it aside from wishful thinking. As a result, the way the term ‘Jew’ is used often blurs the line between the people and the religion, which is infectious and exploitable in a way very much like nationalism - but potentially far worse because it crosses borders and involves dogmatic thinking intermixed with racism. Ex: “The chosen people of God”.
I think people ought to use “Hebrews” when referring to the race, and Judaism/Jewish when referring to the religion. And be aware of why. That’ll probably never become common though.
December 8th, 2006 at 6:37 pm
i would agree with snurp when he said the “history has been mostly one of exclusion”. looking at the question historically is pretty important. one reason contributing to the exclusion is that the jews believed themselves to be (or were told they were) God’s chosen people. that’s why you don’t see many conversions… you can’t ‘convert’ into a people, you are born into it. the problem, as someone else mentioned, was that now there are european jews, ethiopian jews, and middle eastern jews, all of which have some differing genetic properties which gets in the way of calling jews a race. brantley made the point about how important culture is… what you grow up with forms part of who you are, regardless of the fact that you may come to reject some of what you were taught. you are brought up with traditions which you can’t erase because they are in the past. if you were an atheist but the rest of your family was catholic, wouldn’t you still be with them in the holiday times (christmas or easter). religion and culture and social/family life are related in a very complex way, which makes isolating one or the other on a general level very difficult. what may be true for one case won’t necessarily be true in the other. and the problem is further complicated by people just throwing the term ‘jew’ around freely. it’s been used by nut jobs who want to kill all jews or used by people that want to unite a group for whatever purpose. don’t forget zionism, the movement which set up israel, was a very secular organization which, prior to WWII and the holocaust, received very little or no support from religious jews.
so in the end, who is a jew? i guess that’s up to the person if they want to claim they are or not for whatever reason they have!
December 8th, 2006 at 7:08 pm
I used to think of Jewish as a race, but after I read Sam Harris’s book, I learned about what a superficial division that was, and it was largely created in an attempt to dehumanize Jewish people.
Ever since learning about the history of the idea of Jewish people as a race, I’ve felt pretty racist considering it a race rather than a religion.
Lately I’ve been leaning toward religion because of this.
December 8th, 2006 at 8:47 pm
Judaism is a religion. Israel is a nation. The term “Jewish” is a conflation of the two ideas.
What your friend means by “my mother was Jewish, so I am Jewish” is that he is a citizen of a nation. It gets confusing because it doesn’t 100% correspond with the modern political state we call “Israel”.
December 9th, 2006 at 7:54 am
I agree with the above that it’s a deliberate confusion and conflation of terms. Originally there would have been no difference, since the Jewish people were a tight-knit group of people who were all Jewish (religion). Look in the Torah, it’s very tribalistic. There’s lots of talk about outsiders being different. Judaism has been like this from the start, because that’s how all groups were at the time. I think the idea of the purely political nation/state is very recent - anything before that implied something about the people and their culture.
Just like Dawkins says, belief is not matrilineal and yet Jews claim to be Jewish because their mothers were. It’s all a bit dumb really: why else could you get the inherent contradiction of “atheist Jew”?
December 9th, 2006 at 11:38 am
No no no, you’ve got it all wrong, being Jewish isn’t about race or religion. It’s much easier than that: being Jewish is about money. If you’re filthy rich and a bit of a scrooge, you’re Jewish. ;)
December 9th, 2006 at 11:38 am
Andrew:
“I met literally thousands of Catholics that didn’t believe in God while in Hungary.”
This brings up an interesting, but kind of off topic point; so bear with me. I am always blown away when I hear the statistics about religious followers, maybe because I live in a very Liberal area though. But anyways, like Gasmondo, I’m always having conversations with people from far off places. They all seem to describe the people living in the heavily religious areas, as being pretty benign of religious activity, or even a belief in god.
Anyways, I bet the numbers, like ALL statistics; are EXTREMELY skewed from these highly populated areas, where religious conformism just makes life easier. Israel, Africa and the Middle East spring immediately to mind, where calling yourself a believer gets you access to Community assistance, food and medicine etc.
A society free of labels and bias? Hmmm, maybe the hippies were on to something? (Besides the grass) :P
December 9th, 2006 at 11:54 am
Great topic gasmondo; Great jounalism you’re conducting on your site. Observation about being Jewish:
But thou, Israel, art my servant, Jacob whom I have chosen, the seed of Abraham my friend. Isaiah 41:8.
But thou hast not called upon me, O Jacob; but thou has been weary of me, O Israel. Isaiah 43:22.
For Jacob my servant’s sake, and Israel my elect, I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me. Isaiah 45:4.
Above I have included a few verses for reflection. Being a Jew is a sign given by YAVEH, to proclaim his love to the world…….Not to use as a sign to show others you are better than them. For more interesting discussions visit: http://endrtimes.blogspot.com.
December 9th, 2006 at 12:05 pm
Asskissssssss
Semi-Relevant quote
Shameless plug
December 9th, 2006 at 1:53 pm
SHAMELESS PLUG> SHAZE:”Truth becomes the sacrifice:
When absolutism is out, and relativism is in;
When obedience is out, and pragmatism is in;
When teaching is out, and dialogue is in;
When thus saith the Lord is out, and consensus of opinion is in;
When using Scripture to judge right and wrong is out, and unity with tolerance at all costs is in;
When the narrow way is out, and the broad way is in.”
(Tamara Hartzell, In The Name of Purpose: Sacrificing Truth on the Altar of Unity)
December 9th, 2006 at 11:30 pm
I don’t know why I tend to agree with myname, adding one more thing, like Islam describe Jewish they so attached to this life, they scared of death, they fight behind big walls which they buliding one in Plastine now, they do exactly what the Quran says about them.
December 9th, 2006 at 11:33 pm
mohamed, i hope your kidding.
December 9th, 2006 at 11:40 pm
No, I’m serious, I’m so amazed that Quran describe them that perfect. Quran said that they can’t face Muslims face to face, and look what happened in Lebanon, they was just attacking by Jets, and when it comes to invade Lebanon, they couldn’t do it, they don’t even dare, but to give them credit, they are so smart, they win the war in different way, look at What’s going in Lebanon now, it will be civil war in Lebanon so soon, and beleive it, they are part of that too, that’s what they do the best.
I’m not blaming them for that, I blame the stupid Muslims that they don’t read the Quran to know what’s going on behind the curtains.
December 10th, 2006 at 12:37 am
So the Quran specifically states negative generalizations of Jews that inspire paranoia. I see.
December 10th, 2006 at 3:32 am
Quran has genreralization, but also mentioned exception, that there are good people of them know what a god about and they worship him, and they do good things, but for sorry among these bad people, you can’t see the good people.
December 10th, 2006 at 5:35 am
Wow. :(
December 10th, 2006 at 1:03 pm
Just to play devil’s advocate, Mohamed, would you say the suicide
December 10th, 2006 at 1:05 pm
(Sorry, accidentally hit the submit button)
Just to play devil’s advocate, Mohamed, would you say the [a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Cole_bombing]suicide bombing of a US Navy ship[/a] is cowardly? After all, one would think a truly noble combatant would follow the rules of engagement when attacking his enemies.
December 10th, 2006 at 3:36 pm
JL,
Just to explain my self better, I’m not with suicide bombing and killing civilian, but if you look at it, Israel killing civilian too, with the jets and the tanks, and the media in USA don’t dare to cover it, so if you think about, that one part have all the arsnal in the whole world and they kill childern and civilans and the whole world watch especially USA that vito every freaking decision from the UN to condemn Israel.
So about cowrdness, I don’t think you are accurate, look what happen in Lebanon, just raining Lebanon with bombs and yet they didn’t break the Muslims, and they couldn’t dare to face Muslims face to face in a fair fight.
If you search on the internet about 1973 war with Egypt and see how the Israeli was hidding in armed veichles and bulidings and read the Quran and how Quran describe them, you will know what I’m talking about, they claimed at this time that they bulid the most powerfull hill man-kind has ever made, and they claimed that nuclear weapon wouldn’t even destroy it, and Egyptians destroyed it.
December 10th, 2006 at 3:45 pm
Judaism is as culture, an ethnicity and a religion. As a religion it is a set of belief laid down in “the book”, Old Testament. This book tells the story, though in all likelihood a somewhat fictionalized one, of the original tribes of Israel. In the time period where these stories were written there was very low technology so to decide if someone was a part of the tribe it was definied tht if you were born of a woman of the tribe then you were of the tribe. This is where the idea of Judaism as an ethnicity comes from. Basically the idea is that if you are born of a member of the tribe you are part of the tribe. From a genetic perspective i think this makes a great deal of sense. Because of this method of defining the tribe modern Jews are able to find better genetic matches for medical transplantation, i.e. stem cells, through registries devoted to the recruitment of only jewish donors. This is proof that Judaism is a viable ethnicity as you can track genetic similarities within the modern available gene pool. As for culture i would point to the previous discussion of a “history of exclusion” to point to the way Judaism has been push together repeatedly and thus caused the creation of a strong culture devoted to each other.
I myself was born into a jewish family who did did not practice so i have little connection to the religious aspects of Judaism, however i do feel kinship towards other Jews in my community and around the world.
December 10th, 2006 at 10:06 pm
Just try to be African Jewish or Eastern european in Israel, and you will understand what the Judaism about.
Personnely I know Jewish people told how they treated because the Arabian Jewish or African Jewish.
December 10th, 2006 at 10:53 pm
Good point, and I reluctantly agree, but also realize this:
Just try to be a western “infidel” in a Muslim country, and you will see what Islam is all about.
December 10th, 2006 at 10:54 pm
Or also try being a Jew in a Muslim country. You’d be fearful all the time.
December 11th, 2006 at 12:49 am
What i said was supposed to be a joke, but i guess a few people took it seriously. Maybe it’s a joke that should have been said, not written…?
Stereotypes don’t represent the majority of the target population, but they usually represent the loudest, individuals of that population. I’ve met enough Jews to know that the rich jew is just a cliché.
I’ve met a lot of different people, and trust me, there’s assholes (and very nice people) of every race and religion.
Origins and beliefs obviously have an impact on someone’s personnality. But most of the time, it’s the person who makes the difference, not where he/she comes from.
cheer up :)
December 11th, 2006 at 1:23 am
Artiks,
It’s the same every where, it’s like Muslim in USA, but the difference here, that Muslims don’t have racism against each other, which it might happen but very very rare and it’s on individual level, but the in Israel, it’s the whole society.
December 11th, 2006 at 2:52 am
Mohamed, while I find your bigotry educational, I am left to wonder how long it will be allowed.
December 11th, 2006 at 5:42 am
Mohammed
It would be funny if it wasn`t so tragic. A representant of the most reactionary culture on the planet is again distilling the anti-jewish bulshit.
Muslims are non-racist? So what the mufti of Jerusalem was doing in the company of the fuhrer? See http://www.jimena.org/faq/images/mufti_husseini_hitler.jpg
How long do you think a person wearing a traditional jewish symbol, like a yarmulke would live in the heart of Gaza city or Beirut or Baghdad? Ten minutes?
What the heck you know about the israeli society? How many israelis do you know? Did you know that 18% of the Israeli population are Arabs, that go to the same shops, beaches and universities are their fellows jewish?
Did you know that 800,000 jewish people used to live in moslem countries but all of them (well, 99%) fled to Israel and other west countries to escape the benevolence of their nice muslim cousins?
Next you will tell that the 9/11 attacks were a conspiracy of the CIA and the jews, like most of your moslem fellows believe.
Wake up to reality.
December 11th, 2006 at 2:02 pm
Wait, isn’t there a civil war going on in Iraq between shiites and sunnis? Maybe you can’t clasify that as racism, but still…
December 11th, 2006 at 4:22 pm
Do you consider anti-semites RACists? Of course you do… and Judaism is obviously a religion, so there’s your answer. It’s both a race and religion.
December 11th, 2006 at 8:15 pm
Hello. Officially I’m a muslim, but in reality I’m not religious.
I do not think Judaism is a race, but rather a religion. Even race wise I’m not sure why your friend would consider himself jewish when only his mother is so (what about the other half?). If someone convert to Judaism, would teir race automatically change? and even though the more orthodox sects of Judaism requires you to hae jewish blood in order to become so, the reality is that rule really hasn’t been followed and till this day many people are converting to Judaism (a simple google search will indicate to anyone how easy it is to convert). There are claims that genetic testing proves that jews are a race, however what that testing establishes is that many jews have genes that resemble middle-eastern ones, which is to be expected since significant numbers of jews lived in the middle east before the creation of Israel (and obviously continue to do so there after its creation).
So to put it simply, Judaism is a religion. It’s true some jews today may have not mixed with others and so seem to be of the same race (in which case it’s more appropriate to label them as Semitic people when designating race), however the vast majority come from a mix of different races and many simply can only be traced with having a little bit of “middle easternism”, which by itself can’t indicate more than that (in other words, can’t indicate one race).
December 12th, 2006 at 12:25 am
Let’s put it this way, USA gives an example of Israel for the freedom, that’s why I comment on that, if you want to compare between the education level between the Iraqi and the Israeli, I think there is no comparsion.
The other thing what happens in Iraq now, it was predicted, that was the goal of the USA gov and the brits, so I think the opposite of people think, USA succeded to reach its goal in Iraq, making disaster, so the whole middle east get weaker and weaker.
Who ever said that I don’t the Israeli, I watche the tv for 20 years in Egypt, and all I saw daily women and childern killed by a mean militry action, and lately you can find that too, another reminder what happened in Lebanon.
I know that the Jewish in Egypt between 1920 and 1940 burn the American embassy in Egypt to get Egypt in trouble, and that’s why they wrer thrown away, and that’s happen every where in ME, that’s what Jews are good about.
December 12th, 2006 at 1:08 am
First of all, I’d hope that we could we step away from this rancid, pseudo-scientific term, “race,” please?
As a concept, “race” has about as much scientific validity as Creationism. Internally inconsistent. Core concepts change on the basis of socio-political expediency rather than empirical data. And so on…
If you accept my argument against “race,” then obviously, Jews are NOT a race. (Nor are they invisible pink unicorns.)
Now, clearly, Judaism is a religion, yet many self-identified Jews don’t ascribe to one of its core tenents: belief in god. Thus, allowing self-identification as being sufficient criteria for being a “Jew”, then “Jews” cannot properly be deemed a religion.
Wikipedia defines an ethnic group as “a human population whose members identify with each other, usually on the basis of a presumed common genealogy or ancestry…. [and] also usually united by certain common cultural (behavioural, linguistic and ritual or religious) traits.”
While there are several problems which may arise in that broad definition, for my money, “ethnic group” wins the day over both “race” and “religion.”
***
My Personal Beliefs:
On Dawkins’ numerical spectrum of probabilities about the existence of god — with (1) being a “Strong theist” and (7) being a “Strong atheist” — I fall right along with Richard: “I count myself in category 6, but leaning towards 7 — I am agnostic only to the extent that I am agnostic about fairies at the bottom of the garden.”
December 12th, 2006 at 12:10 pm
Race is a real concept, however abstract, man-made, or ill-defined. It might be stupid to argue about what constitutes a race, but if I had to, I’d say that Jews qualify as a race as well as a religion. There are some people who call themselves jewish atheists, and who better to define a group of people than member of the group.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheist_Jew
BAM!
December 12th, 2006 at 3:27 pm
Mohamed, I would have to dispute your comment on America’s success in Iraq. Right now the area is killing our own soldiers as well as Iraqis. Not only that but people are beginning to hate our presence more and more in the region, and countries like Iran are moving in to pick up the pieces and the country’s support along with it. People there are starting to put more and more support behind the religious groups and militias we are most opposed to. While the government may or may not have had dubious goals when it first went in, by this point it’s difficult to see anything happening there right now as a success for Americans.
December 12th, 2006 at 8:05 pm
Snurp,
What I meant that use goal wasn’t the stability for the region, that’s big lie, the current events was the goal for USA, who do you think is the benfrciary of that, I don’t think that Iran would like the situation now, the more conflict will happen the longer USA will stay.
ME Stability is a big lie, if you follow the news look what’s going on in Lebanon, the whole region is going to explode.
Sorry if I’m furstrated, but I really can’t see this light at the end of the tunnel.
December 12th, 2006 at 8:51 pm
What Mohamed seems to claim is that the goal of the US was to weaken the Middle East, and that the current fiasco in Iraq is doing just that. 2 points for the US, slam dunk, boo-yah! We’ll come in after all the civil wars have killed half the people and easily control the oil.
I don’t see how destabilizing the Middle East helps the US. It certainly doesn’t help the government or the US economy. It might help Haliburton out a bit.
My personal opinion was that the goal was to dispose Husein and install a regime that would give us more favorable oil prices. That isn’t really going so well.
Trust me, the US has never looked far enough ahead to come up with a plan to destabilize the Middle East, wait 20 years until the infrastructure is weak, and then clean up to gain control of oil. US “long term” plans can never be longer than 8 years.
December 13th, 2006 at 12:38 am
Andrew,
If you answered this question you will know why USA want to distablize the ME, who pushed USA to this war, and who the benfrciary in the ME from weakening Iraq?
Remeber one thing, and I don’t know if you heard about that or not before, that almost one year ago two british soldiers got arrested from the Iraqi police, these two soldiers were wearing cloth like Iraqis and has all kind of weapons in a car, and the british army attacked the police station to free them, so far we don’t know why they did that?, and no comment from the British army so far.
December 13th, 2006 at 12:42 am
Andrew:
Religion is one thing, but adding a an international political, economic, and military discussion into the mix which also includes deeply seeded religious overtones is NOT a good idea. Nothing will be accomplished besides frayed nerves and ruffled feathers. There are other venues for that kind of conversation. Please, PLEASE do not get into it here. This community in particular will erupt into flames over it. We’ve got a steady amount of Muslims who come here just to post spam on the cartoon threads alone and a couple that actively post, as well as curious Christians - many of which no doubt love president Bush.
Despite the regulatory effect caused by the devotion of some of the regular atheist and agnostic posters in adherence to logic and reason during caustic issues while insisting others do the same, you will inevitably open up a Pandora’s box… and you’ll cause me to make excessive use of unnecessarily descriptive words and run-on sentences. heh.
December 13th, 2006 at 2:49 am
I\’m not trying to interject anything new, just interpret and comment on what Mohamed has previously said. And with the current world situation it is almost impossible to talk about religion without politics. We have already heard claims in this thread about how the nation of Israel (which is deeply tied to the Jewish religion) is described in the Quran as being cowardly, and that they are only empowered by the US weakening the Muslim nations in the Middle East? When claims like this are made, how can religion and politics be separated? The political, economic, and military discussions going on in the upper ranks of governments have deeply religious overtones. And the religious discussions going on in the upper levels of religions have deeply political, economic, and military overtones. This seem the the dangerous religious freakery that is most appropriate for this site. Sure it may be fun to talk about the Virgin Mary in toast, but I think these topics have far more impact, even if more volatile. The reason it is related to this thread is that Mohamed, as well as other Muslims I\’ve met, tend to equate the nation of Israel with Jews. Many believe that Jews control banks, governments, and corporations around the world, and that they are all ultimately controlled by the nation of Israel. I think it\’s a unique viewpoint that a government can use religion to control people that are not citizens of a nation. I personally think that this is a paranoid conspiracy theory, but too many people believe it to just ignore. It also seems to be unique to the Jewish race/religion debate because I don\’t think anyone serious believes that if the Pope really controls all Catholics worldwide .
December 13th, 2006 at 8:31 pm
I want to add one more thing, if 9/11 didn’t happen, religious freak wouldn’t even see the light, what happened in 9/11 changed the world, and put reilgion with politics whehter you like or not.
It’s not conspiracy, it’s truth, so tell why USA don’t condemend Israel after killing childern and civilians, they veto every decision the UN try to take, but when one plastenian exploder him self, you find USA the first to condemned the plastenian. It’s really obvious and if you listen to a political argument in USA tv, you will know that Jewish lobby pushed the war against Iraq.
December 13th, 2006 at 9:09 pm
mohamed, i totally agree with you about the us’s support of isreal. There are way to many christians in power here and blindly support isreal no matter what. However i dont think this administration really needed jewish lobbyists to push them into the war in iraq.
December 14th, 2006 at 4:07 am
@mohamed
i am dying to know what kind of occupation you hold in the USA. be vague as you need to be… cheers.
December 16th, 2006 at 3:08 am
boris,
I’m not going to tell you :P
I came you USA to exam CPA in Aug 2001, I was in NC, my exam was in Nov 2001 in CA, 11/9 happened in between, I couldn’t go to CA.
Here what I work, I worked as dish washer and then as chef in NC, when I went you Utah I worked first as waiter and now I’m working as A/P and Operations coordinator and I help also with IT issues, and thank god I have good succes in what I’m doing.
It doesn’t make difference to me what I’m doing or what I’m working, I liked every job I did and I’m proud of what I did so far and I enjoy all the respect that I get from my co-worker, and I’m happy that I have a lot of American friends who appreciate and trust me.
I hope that keep you from dying.
December 16th, 2006 at 5:32 am
@mohamed
judging from your english skills, i call complete BS. i’ve had some issues already with indian people that were in my team, mostly related to written english, not so much spoken. i don’t have to tell you that i was not willing to tolerate that, and said parties didn’t last very long. IT is all about communication, which doesn’t seem to be your strong suit. unless you found someone willing to tolerate an email written by you (and that person would need to check themselves), i once again call BS.
the only thing that keeps me from dying is the heartbeat. once that stops i will most certainly die. what is your point? oh, wait. i don’t ever recall you making one…
you != to … marry xmas. hope you make some good tips tonight…
December 16th, 2006 at 6:04 am
“I’m not going to tell you”
ha, first complete sentence. i hope one of many to come. cheers.
December 16th, 2006 at 7:58 am
i dont usualy post here but, but after reading some posts by muhamed i felt i had to react:
first of all about the war in lebanon… it was started BY hizbolah and not by israel…. what did they hopped to achive ?? political power by freeing some lebanies “hostages” held by israel (i will come back to those “hostages” later) or maybe to take the heat from their iran buddies i dont know… but the fact remains they DID started it…. why didnt israel fighted them face to face ? maybe cause for the past 6 YEARS hizbolah was building bunkers and traps in that reagion and invading such place with infantry is an bad idea and will cause many looses to the invading forces (for example: the opening of the movie “saving private tyan” - the invading force was much bigger and better equiped than the germans and they DID took the beach… but at what price) thats why most of the action was made using smart bombs and jets. why women\children died ??
well first of all how come ONLY women and children died… were where the men ? ( shooting missles at israel maybe ?) s
econd b4 each strike, planes dropped flyers and phone calls were made to EACH AND SINGLE HOUSE in the target area warning them to leave…. why didnt they ? and dont tell me they couldnt… if u want to leave to save yourself and your family u will find a way
do u actualy belive that israel will drop 15 million dollar smart missle to take out a mother and her kid ??
the planes bombed missle launchers and missle stacks in lebanon…. and women and children died cause hizbolah used SCHOOLS HOSPITALS AND HOUSES to stack and shoot missles at israel (missles wich were aimed at citizens and not soldiers btw)
obviosly mistakes were made and some inocents died…. thats war for u… ppl die at war its unfortunate but it is its nature
and btw if jews are so weak and cowardy than how come israel exists after 4 wars launched on it by several arab nations.
about jews beeing a race or religios…. in my mind its more a culture issue… what binds jews together (at least in israel) its the culture and history and not the 1 god that some jews belive in
about how jews seen by other ppl ??? well each has its own belifes some ppl hate all jews (wich they belive a jewish race) then some like iran for example just hate the israely jews so in mind the defenition of “jew” varies from person to person.
p.s
sorry for typos… english isnt my native language
p.s2
that rubbi that made the airport take down the christmas trees fucked up big time… caused major embaresment here.
December 17th, 2006 at 12:14 pm
Bobcat,
Correction for you, the war didn’t start from Huzbaallah, it was from Israeli, who crossed the border, and that’s why they go kidnapped, check the facts first, that what the Israeli good about.
Boris,
I think I made more points more than you did in this web site, all what you do, is just cheerleading for the other people comments or critisizing me, other than that, I don’t think even I see one usefull comment out of you, or even opinion, you are the kind of people who follow not who leads.
Beleive it or not, I don’t care about your opinion, like I said above you don’t matter.
December 17th, 2006 at 2:32 pm
muhamed:
now u’re just inventing facts i dont need to check the facts cause im from israel and my friends were in lebanon at the last war and if u just check some sources like cnn or sky news or even the head of hizbolah himself who sayed “it was a mistake to carry out the operation on israel\lebanon boeder” u’ll know what happend… the war was only few months ago and u allredy start to rewrite the facts to make israel look like shit
http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/07/12/mideast/
“JERUSALEM (CNN) — The Israeli Cabinet authorized “severe and harsh” retaliation on Lebanon after Hezbollah guerillas kidnapped two soldiers and killed three others in a cross-border raid Wednesday”
well at least u dont blame jews\israel off 9/11 ( or do u ? :> )
p.s
muhamed go read a book ( a real one and not some radical anti-jew anti-west propaganda book )
December 17th, 2006 at 8:28 pm
Don’t expect much from Mohamed. His entire life is based on “some radical anti-jew anti-west propaganda book” (Quran).
He’s a bigot. Otherwise, he’s a nice guy… but still a bigot. I’ve come to accept that after talking to him enough.
December 18th, 2006 at 11:39 pm
Bobcat,
As long as you talk about the facts, where was Israel from 150 years ago, why they exist now in the ME?
Occupation, that what Israel about, they live on killing and murdering, like chickens , they don’t even dare to face, they just cry.
If you read books like you claim, can you tell me what happen on the attack on USS Liberity in 1976, and if you don’t have and idea, here is the link http://www.geocities.com/northstarzone/LIBERTY.html
Go read and know what Isreal all about, and see how the American turn their head away like it never happend, and I saw my self on C-span, the American soldier that survive this accident, and they tried to convince the Congress that wasn’t accident, and the Congress didn’t care.
Some people believe that the Jewish don’t conroll USA, read the story, and you will know that what I say about them is 100% true.
December 19th, 2006 at 12:40 am
Mohamed, much like that one toothless, uneducated, alchol addled redneck in the KKK hood I once saw on a street protest have about the same thing to say…
“The Zionist conspiracy is why I’m not a winner!”
Though I feel that they have slightly different reasons for thinking this, if the Jewish people are such a powerful force in the world, why haven’t they just erradicated the filthy goyim by way of some cowardly (I’ll give Mohamed the benifit of the doubt for this argument) method like bio-weapons or chemical strikes? Why leave such a large group to be pissed about your “Zionist Occupation government”?
Sounds like a lot of genetically ingrained out-group hostility amplified and exaserbated by the unessicary bullhorn of faith.
December 19th, 2006 at 10:36 am
OMG that link explains, like, everything. al qaida is really a bunhc of jews in disguise! muslims never comitted any acts of terror, it was israelis all along… damn how blind i was…
December 19th, 2006 at 12:18 pm
Wow he even uses the old USS Liberty ship as reasoning. Sorry. I don’t appeal to emotion. That’s the same sort of crap neo-Nazis use to get people to appeal to hating Israel.
December 19th, 2006 at 2:40 pm
There’s always some truth to crap like this. It’s usually a requirement as people aren’t mindless drones. The trouble is in picking out the truth from the falsehoods. Not an easy task.
December 19th, 2006 at 2:54 pm
Still, we shouldn’t let a military screw up be reasoning for hating a country, if that was the case most of the countries on a global scale would be in pretty hot water.
Honestly I would be more concerned about the fact people like Mohamed are just people who use propaganda, fear, and disinformation to spread a agenda. You can take what he says with a grain of salt.
Honestly I’m a supporter of Israel, I’m not a believer in zionism but they do have a right to exist, and I could care less about the islamic world anyway. If it was me as president I would of nuked the entire area and called it even.
December 19th, 2006 at 3:46 pm
If I were you, I’d be more concerned about the apparent fact that Mohamed and others like him actually believe what they are saying.
Mohamed isn’t a badguy. He’s extremely misguided though. We ought to keep that in mind. Unless of course he should actually choose to act on his views in a damaging way, in which case we can be sympathetic but definitely not tolerant.
As for Zionism, it is a pseudo-religious movement aimed at controlling territory (regardless of the purpose, this is what it amounts to; that much is indisputable). I say ‘pseudo’ because it involves Jewish nationalism in addition to the religious aspect. There’s a gray area between the two as we’ve been discussing. I’m surprised that you’d be in support of something that clearly is not very sound in reason to be a follower of, though if you’re a leader it makes sense to exploit it even if that’s not very ethically sound since the philosophy itself is not coherent.
Do not mistake me - I am taking issue with a flawed and irrational philosophy and the exploitation thereof. Nothing more. I am not suggesting some vast conspiracy; I am sticking with the basic facts - a practical approach, wouldn’t you say?
My appeal is for you to consider these things. I think if you do, you will at least understand if not agree that it isn’t such a good idea to be in support of Zionism. We need something more reasonable. Perhaps then, Israel might achieve better results with it’s neighbors.
See how carefully I avoid politics? Damn, I’m awesome (j/k). :D
December 19th, 2006 at 3:55 pm
Also, when I say “Israel might have better results with it’s neighbors”, it is with the expressed idea that Zionism and Israel are not synonymous. The establishment of Israel is certainly largely in part due to a massive Zionist movement, however that does not mean that Zionism is a requirement for it’s continued existence. At the very least it can be said that Zionism will not provide a means peace. Something more is needed.
December 19th, 2006 at 4:11 pm
It mostly has to do with ethnic reasoning, seeing as the Jewish people have been one of the most prosecuted people in history, especially after the holocaust it makes sense a nation to protect them would be needed. But if you look at the region around Israel and the fact violence against them will be a constant.
Personally I think hatred Arabs have for them is based clearly the fact they believe that Israel is “holy land” that they somehow “own” when in fact it was a British colony.
Anyway, if Israel wanted to it could of kept the lands it won in the 6 Day War. But whatever. If it only takes 6 days to kill the best of Middle Eastern attacks then their bark is worse then their bite.
December 19th, 2006 at 4:22 pm
I’m alarmed at how readily you ignore the fact that the Israeli nationalist leaders who established Israel CHOSE that territory primarily because of it’s place in Judaism as holy land. It flies in the face of what your 1st and 2nd paragraphs are saying.
December 19th, 2006 at 4:29 pm
In fact, the establishment of such a state probably would have failed if not for that region being it’s target. This is also somewhat distressing.
What a flawed and disturbing world mankind has made.
December 19th, 2006 at 4:59 pm
Yeah that is true, but the main reason people started immigrating there was because they had family who have lived there long before any serious migration to the region, a lot of Jewish people you can’t even tell them from Arabs because they are inheirtantly middle eastern. The point being they have always been there. It’s not like Jews being in the British Palestine area is something completely new.
In fact, Jews from other Islamic countries started moving to Israel as well due to the persecution from their former nations.
December 19th, 2006 at 9:35 pm
Revlic,
They were presecuted for theire conspiracy they did in every country they were in, like exploding the USA embassy in Cairo in the earlier 1900, to put Egypt in jeprody with USA, and it’s proved.
Plstine never been for Jewish state, and it will never be, Juraslem has to be for Muslims, all of this world will stay in trouble because Juraslem.
The mosque in Jueaslem has to be in Muslims hands, and I hope the Jewish to understand not to try to destroy like they are dying to do, because the consequences will be so bad for that.
The other thing, if you don’t want to blame the Jewis for what their military did, why you balme Muslims for what some individual did(not organized army), you should have been smarter and not mention such a thing.
Thank you
December 20th, 2006 at 12:16 am
You know, I don’t really care about Jerusalem, the fact is they are there and there isn’t anything you can say to me that is in any way shape or form believable. You’ve already proven to me that your useless as a debater and as a human being.
You already did blame the the Israelis for what the military did, and likewise you use whatever means necessary.
You know why I can blame the Muslim world for what a individual suicide bomber does? Because your people and leaders have done nothing to stop it. Israel at least apologized and paid for their accident. .1
A History of Israel by Ahron Bregman contains extracts from the tapes. (ISBN 0-333-67631-9)
December 20th, 2006 at 1:08 am
Hmmmmmmmm, accident :))))))))))))))
December 20th, 2006 at 2:45 am
I don’t know, in my county you call someone a nigger your a racist for life.
That’s not forgivable.
December 21st, 2006 at 1:25 am
Sometime, discrimnation is not about calling names, it’s about actions, and every one of us sometime could raciest at one point, and if you watch the movie “Crash”, it will explain, that you could be raciest at some situation and in another situation, you forget about your race and try to help.
We are human-being, it will happen in any country and any where including Muslims countries, it’s the life”ce la vie”.
Boris do you like ce la vie one, I’m sure I’m going to hear from you about this one :)
December 21st, 2006 at 2:13 am
I’m not sure you understand what I mean exactly.
December 21st, 2006 at 10:55 am
Just curious, did you mean “C’est la vie” ?
December 21st, 2006 at 1:20 pm
Mohamed:
Your chosen religion appears to NOT have a “responsability” or “respect” for the rest of the world and it’s choices. I remember this from your initial “interview”, in that you felt you were somehow different or reformed from other Muslims. That they didn’t quite understand the love and peace you had found from it’s foundation.
And, for the same reason I can lump all Christians in with the militant/batshit crazy ones; I can single you out as a supporter of an ideal that is being used for a great evil.
“C’est la vie” or “It’s Life” is the phrase I use, to point out that nothing in life is absolute. There are no answers worth believing in, only questions worth asking.
December 21st, 2006 at 9:53 pm
jagannath,
You are right it’s C’est la vie. I didn’t study french from 14 years ago, and I really hate this language:).
December 22nd, 2006 at 6:14 am
muhamed:
the more i read your commets the more i think u have no idea what u are talking about…
about the bombing of uss ship…. 30 years ago u didnt have all the tech stuff u have now and it was really easy to get confused… and the pilots that bombed the shipped got confused and fucked up big time (this is no excuse the DID fucked up) but that was an accident… exidents happend… actually gew years later im the 1st lebanon war an israely pilot bombed and israely tank convoy killike over 20 israelly soldeirs… it was also an accient and this pilot also fucked up BIG TIME…. but by your reasoning the pilot bombed that convoy on purpose… just like the us ship was bombed on “purpose”
also in resent 10 years there were countless of military acts that were describes as accidents…
like when usa bombed a wedding in afghanistan killing 100 people…. i hope u dont think it happend cause the usa army (controlled by jews ofcourse) did that to stop afghans from getting married thus stopping them from having babies and thus iradicating them as a race so the jews can add afghanistan to their territory.
about zionizm…. i dont think u guys know what zionizm means… it doesnt mean take all land in the middle east it means that jews should get back to the lands they were kicked from by other powers (romans,ashory… etc)
no zionist will claim that egypt belong to jews but jerusalem… in wich the hebrew holy temple was build (and later destroyed) is the land of jews
btw… its true that al aqsa musqe is in jerusalem but this is just another musque… middle east have like 50 “EXTREMELY” holly places for muslims…
but the jewish temple is the one most holy piece of land to the jews on the planet.
now lets talk about other territories…. israel gave back land in the soust (gaza went back to palestinians) and israel gave back land in the north (to lebanon) this land was givven back without conditions and without getting ANYTHING in return…. for this jesture israel got rocket attacks from south and north (the rockets from the south still landing in israely cities)
now after this little experiment in “peace” what would u have israel do ?
and also i think some of u dont get the big picture…. when palestinians and iranians and hizbolah etc want israel to give back muslim lands they want israel to give back ALL land i mean…. leave all israely cities and move back to europe or wherever
they dont want to leave in peace they want israel gone.. and they dont even hide their views… they speak it loud
i dont say that all arabs are like that cause its aint true… israel have peace with egypt and jordan and before the muslim fanatics took power in iran israel and iran were the clossest allies ( YES BEFORE RAIDCAL MUSLIMS TOOK POWER IN IRAN ISRAEL AND IRAN WERE CLOSSEST ALLYES )
but since today radicals control the muslim world and bitch slap usa and europe while europe think that if they will just talk a bit to those monsters they will calm down (if i remember corectly same shit happened 60 years ago when rest of europe wanted to talk reason to hitler… so they talked and talked and talked and we all know how that ended)
and 1 last thing… about us cowardly jews how come we cowardly 4.5 millions jews (the other 2 millions of israel population arent jews and most of them dont server in the army) fight off u brave 2 billion muslims ? and how come some cowardly jewish women and children that survivred the holocust fighted and defeated the brave arab soldeirs in 1947 war ?? and 20 years later the israely weak and cowardly army took out the 3 brave and heroic arab armies…
and i saw u mentioned the 1973 “yom kipur war”
its called the “yom kippur war” cause the brave arab armies attacked insrael on “yom kippur” wich is the holliesst jewish holiday in wich jews are festing and dont listnen to radio or watch tv…. so the brave arab armies attacked on all fronts while most of the “cowardly” jews were at sinagoge’s and all the army bases and posts were almost deserted (wich in retrospect wasnt that smart ofcourse)
so next time u call jews cowards and arabs brave i ask u i more time… please oh please read a REAL HISTORY BOOK
December 24th, 2006 at 10:10 am
Haven’t read all of the responses.
Jewish is not a clearly defined adjective. I’m Jewish (born and raised in Ukraine), even though I don’t belief in God. My Jewishness comes from my blood and my culture. Parts of this culture have been shaped by Judaism but to me what’s left has no relation to God anymore.
Jewish is a mix of race, ethnicity, religion and culture.
December 25th, 2006 at 3:49 am
bobcat
no zionist will claim that egypt belong to jews but jerusalem… in wich the hebrew holy temple was build (and later destroyed) is the land of jews.
You seem like you don’t know what are you talking about.
First the British offered Ethiopia to be the home of The Jewis, and the Jewis accept that, and when they went to Ethipia, they found it so hot and has nothing to do there, so the Brits offered Plastine, and they liked it, that’s why they occupay Jersulam, and they claim that there is temple as an excuse for their occupation. Let me tell you something, Moses asked his follower to bury him outside Juraselm, and you know why, because he know that one day you will claim Juraslem as your land and he would be the reason, so he rather to be buried out side Juraslem.
Being cowerd, was holiday for the Jews, when the attacked Huzballh, and Huznallah kicked the Isralian army butt.
I’m not going to ask you to read the history, just read the news form 5 months ago, although I don’t support Huzballah, it just shows how cowerd the Isralian is, they just bomberd chidern, but when it comes to face man to man, they run.
December 25th, 2006 at 11:51 am
I’m beginning to think you enjoy being stubborn, unrealistic, and throwing reason into the wind. Like it’s a source of pride or something.
December 25th, 2006 at 10:39 pm
Hold on Mohamed, are you saying that the entire diasporic population of present day Israel was sent to Ethiopia, said “Oi vay ya putz, its to hot down here.” and then went to Israel?
As for this whole Israel/Hezbolah thing, can’t we just accept that both sides are a batch of Theisticly motivated screw-heads that need to be smacked around for their own mutual stupidities instead of trying to claim the righteousness of one just to trump the side we like less?
December 26th, 2006 at 1:23 am
Humanistic,
No, not all of them, it was just their leaders who create the Isreali movement, I just mentioned that to show it wasn’t about the holy land like they claim.
I agree with you about Israel/HuzbAllah, they are both stupid.
Artkis, you can apply the same conclusion about you too, I told a lot of facts that no body want to accept.
In USS liberty, as I said before, I watched it in TV, and I didn’t believe my eyes how the congress man try to avoid to heat the stories from the witnesses was in the ship them self, it was really amazing that the democracy went away in a moment because the other side was Israel.
December 26th, 2006 at 10:14 pm
mohammed seems to know a lot about jews.
even more than jews themselves.
i did not know that we went to ethiopia and then said it was too hot so we got jerusalem instead.
…….ahhhhhhhhh HAH hahahahahhahaha.
seriously mohammed, who are you to tell me how my people act is this way or that way… when you are NOT my people and the only information you base your opinion on comes from biased conspiracy theories?
December 27th, 2006 at 2:08 am
USS Liberity was conspiracy theory too?, I never knew about it, till I came here to USA and I watched C-span, and I saw tha American soldiers with tears in theire eyes trying to tell the truth and nobody want to listen.
What would you say about Israel selling the American military technology to China last year, was it that conspiracy theory, what about the Israeli spy last year in USA, and barely any body heard about it, was it conspiracy theory, and barely any body hears about it.
Do you want me to continue in the list of facts that you name it theories.
December 28th, 2006 at 3:30 am
@mohamed
before you continue, would you kindly learn to speak english? i can not believe we let someone with your language skill reside in the country, let alone hold employment.
December 28th, 2006 at 6:55 am
Boris, you’re an ass.
December 28th, 2006 at 8:27 pm
@arktis
i know…
December 29th, 2006 at 12:37 am
This someone can run circles around you in any Job you would like to choose, this someone is so trusted between his work-mate, and he is the go man when they are in trouble. Work is just about language, it has differnet measures than you think, which I don’t think you know any thing about it.
This somenoe tells you things you didn’t even read about it and you don’t want even to read about, no hear it, that’s why you act like child.
Any way Boris, I meet a lot of people like you every day, I learn howto deal with them, I could say stupid things about you, but I would rather to be better than you, my paranets show me how to respect people, and show how to deal with less raised people like you.
Thank you
December 29th, 2006 at 6:36 am
@boris:
Hahaha ;)
@Mohamed:
Get your butt over to the Muslim pilgrimage topic, please! Johnny 5 want input.
…no disassemble.
December 31st, 2006 at 9:33 pm
Although it seems paradoxical there are two ways to become Jewish one genetic, and the other environmental. They are:. 1. To be born of a Jewish mother and 2. To convert to Judaism according to halacha (Jewish law).
If you become Jewish via conversion, it’s considered equivalent to having been born a Jew for almost all purposes. In addition it involves studying and making a committment to practicing the Jewish religion.
If you are born of a Jewish mother you are Jewish whether or not you practice the religious tenet’s of Judiasm, indeed whether or not you even know them. It’s a well known phenomena in married couples, that a partner who converted to Judaism (Jews by choice) is often more committed to religous practice that the partner who was born Jewish.
The only way that I can even attempt to make sense of the above is that there exists within Jews something called the spark of a Jew — which can be passed on from a Jewish mother, or can effectively be created by halachic conversion.
Now to many this will seem nonsense since you would ask “how can one measure this spark” but many Jews and non Jews have reported experiencing it as they suddenly and for reasons not always known to them found themselves drawn towards Judaism and its practice.
Hence i see a Jew as someone who has the potential to become a practicing Jew, but not necessarily doing so at a particular time in the Jews life.
It’s also important to note that Judaism is opened to anyone who wishes to join. Over the centuries Jews ceased from active proselytizing probably because the Christian authorities punished Jews who tried to convert non Jews to Judaism.
By the way, Hanukah is also a mixture of approaches. On the one hand it celebrates a particular military victory on the part of Jews rebelling against the Hellenists. On the other hand it celebrates the miracle of a small jug of oil burning for 8 nights. To be these events represent two necessary conditions for Jewish survival, strength and self defense as represented in our times by Israel, and Gods providence in keeping us around for so long and keeping to Gods covenant with the Jewish people.
R.Lee. Smith
February 7th, 2007 at 6:30 pm
Your Father says,
while you are correct that anti-semites are racist, I dont think you realise that a great portion of the Middle East is populated with SEMITES, meaning Jews and Arabs can be descibed as Semites. Therefore most arabs of the middle east can not be descibed as anti-semites as they are constantly referred to, they would be racist towards themselves if they were anti-semites. It is an easy trap to fall into as most westerners are not aware of this.
February 7th, 2007 at 6:44 pm
Mohamed,
I dont think anyone can convince you otherwise, you believe what you think is right and then there are facts. I dont care what you think, but maybe give this idea one thought. Maybe, just maybe your source of news is a biased and one sided point of veiw, and you can only believe what you are told. Give that a bit of thought. Then maybe try to get you news from an unbiased source on the internet. The wheels of propoganda seem to run rampant in the Middle East news anyway.
February 11th, 2007 at 8:51 am
Wow boys, what interesting fodder this conversation has provided. No one seems to possibly think that their “news” source could be biased *gasp*!!! As a Canadian I watch American news and it’s no wonder y’all get so hot under the collar about things…your news reports don’t just present the facts, they tell you what to think of them too. Pick a source and your stance will be easily identifiable. I do get a chuckle out of Boris, who can’t for the life of him find a respectable source, but instead resorts to name-calling. (are you an evolutionist too? that seems to be their reasoning tactic…”can’t explain it? call them down!” …ohh, am I going to pay for that one??)
Mohamed, as passionate as he is, is swayed by his sources as well.
I’m quite glad that Gasmonso’s question was posed at last nights supper table with my teenage and pre-teenage children (*gasp* a family that eats together at the table and not infront of the TV?!?!)since I was treated to quite the amusing verbal spar match reading all of the comments when I researched it this morning. Although, I’m not sure that I am any clearer on the answer.
Thanks guys, it was fun! :)
February 17th, 2007 at 4:03 pm
first off i think jewish is a religon because how can you say your jewish, but not be part of the relgion? This girl told me she was jewish, but not part of the religon. You cant say your jewish but not be part of the religon.
March 2nd, 2007 at 4:03 am
Your only Jew if you choose to be. My parents told me I’m Mormon, to hell with that. Hebrews, Arabs, Persians are all a middle eastern stock of people-Semites. The mystery to me is why do so many clearly european people call themselves semitic? That president of Iran is clearly semitic. Call me strange but I know a Chinese, Japanese, Korean person when I see one. I believe that most of the real descendants of Hebrews today are Muslims. Why is it in the U.S if you are 1/10 black by god you are black? I guess Hittler thought the way the U.S defined black was the way to define semitic people. God people are evil.
March 2nd, 2007 at 6:01 pm
I’m a member of the gayish people. I’m not actually gay though. I’m only gay because my mother is. You can tell how gay someone is by something gayish people call the gay spark. Sometimes people are not born gay, but choose to become gay. Often times converts to gayism are much more gay than those born gay. Can anyone tell me how stupid that sounds?
June 9th, 2007 at 3:45 am
If your parents follow(ed) Judaism, but you don’t, you’re not Jewish. The whole definition of who is and who isn’t a Jew (based on parentage) is absurd. Mother’s Jewish: You’re in. Father’s Jewish: Sorry. If my dog is brown, and my cat has fleas, does that make me taller?
There might be certain cultural connections to a particular religion, but the religion itself shouldn’t be the end-all in defining who you are as a whole.
I think we should start labelling ourselves based on geographic location. “I’m Bob, and a North American.”
June 10th, 2007 at 11:25 pm
Hi I’m Catholic.
There is a Jewish race (the Hebrew people) and there is the Jewish faith. Some people chose the Jewish faith but are not physically of Jewish decent. Some people of Jewish race aren’t religious. And some (most) are both. They are of Jewish (Hebrew) decent and of Jewish faith. The Jewish faith originally was the faith of the Jewish people, which is why they usually go together. Christianity doesn’t have a country attached to it. Hope this helps.
September 22nd, 2007 at 4:49 pm
As a Jew, I believe that the Jews are a race. How else do you explain people “looking Jewish”? Because historically Jews have rarely intermarried, they have become a race because of gene isolation (see the first post).
September 25th, 2007 at 8:41 am
I consider myself Jewish even though I have no belief in God and oppose religion. I would not hesitate to renounce my Judaism, if it wasn’t for the permanent threat of a second holocaust. Jews have been identified and persucated throughout history, and I know that this will happen again soon. When it does, there is no point telling a persecutor that Judaism is not a race. I have to stick with my people because I am fearful that oneday someone might attack me for who my ancestors are.
September 25th, 2007 at 12:09 pm
That’s a wee bit paranoid, Jon Crofter. If I thought the threat of another holocaust (against Jews or any other group) were eminent, I, too would join in solidarity with that group. But I see no evidence for such a problem.
October 25th, 2007 at 6:26 pm
Think about this: Judaism is a civilization - it has a nation, a religion, various and sundry superstitious traditions, folklore that exists outside the religion, and lots more. Of course, the religion forms the core of the civilization, but various people are at various distances from it, but still Jewish.
October 25th, 2007 at 6:47 pm
I am a secular Jew, I have no belief in G-d (although I still refuse to write the name). I feel like if G-d does exist He is a traitor to his own people (for actions such as allowing the Shoah (Holocaust, the pogroms, and more). Judaism is a tribal religion so Jews have never gone around trying to convert others and instead stay tightly knit together avoiding assimilation to keep the tribe alive, after all how would it have survived past thousands of years of persecution when other, much stronger, nations have fallen.
With this in mind I have come to see it as a race, religion, and a nation. It has become very broad, but many can still be classified as Jews even when their faith falls through.
October 25th, 2007 at 10:03 pm
Judaism is not a race. A person can convert to Judaism, but they cannot convert to an Indian, a Slav, or an Arab. You cannot convert to other races, but you can convert to other religions.
December 29th, 2007 at 11:23 pm
Race is a social construction. Therefore Jews are not a race, just like Indians are not a race; just like Chinese are not a race…no one is a race.
December 30th, 2007 at 3:45 pm
sarahc:
“Race is a social construction. Therefore Jews are not a race, just like Indians are not a race; just like Chinese are not a race…no one is a race.”
Depends on how you define race. There are of course genetical differences between populations because of thousands of years of isolation on continents and islands. In very ancient times people usually picked their partners from the neighborhood out of need - later they picked only from their own culture out of habit.
December 31st, 2007 at 10:16 am
Erm, actually…
there are in fact rather large genetic differences between Chinese and Indian and West-European and Native American and whatever other group you can think off. But you don’t really need to be a geneticist to know that, Chinese people look rather different from North-African or European people.
Ethnicity is pretty much a social construct, but race definatly is not.
Of course, then comes the problem of when you define someone as a seperate race. How much does their genome have to differ from the mean? How do you determine the “average human”? I’m sure you can find differences in the DNA of Jewish people and others (the stereotypical nose for example), but does that make them a seperate race?
Of course, the main question is: Why the hell does anyone care?
December 31st, 2007 at 11:09 am