Gary from Australia sent me a link to the next chapter in the Jewish quest to bother everyone.
In the past I covered a story about eruvs that sparked a wide spectrum of opinions. Some defended the Jews, while others like myself ridiculed them for the shear nonsense. I like to think of this story as the sequel.
Orthodox Jews in Australia have yet another Shabbat dilemma on their hands… the ole "Push to Cross" button on traffic lights. Laugh if you must, but this seemingly harmless button has trapped countless Jews for decades and nearly killed those who tried in vein to thwart it.
Standard orthodox teachings dictate that no work is to be done on the Sabbath. What that exactly means is a mystery to me, but here is a good start. Apparently pushing this little button constitutes work and is therefore illegal. Luckily, the city will be installing expensive hi-tech sensors, allowing Jews to cross safely.
It makes you wonder though. If Jews are so smart, couldn’t they just "accidentally" lean on the button? Seriously, there isn’t any work involved, certainly no more than the effort to reach the crosswalk in the first place. And secondly, are these people so crazy as to walk across a busy intersection without a walk signal?
To me it looks like their beliefs are endangering them and therefore their God is. What kind of a God would do this? While the tradition stems from ancient beliefs when technology didn’t exist, surely their God would have the foresight to see this coming. Why would he do this?
I’m looking forward to some responses from Jews because the ones I know find it stupid.
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December 18th, 2006 at 1:27 am
Proof of Natural Selection, and proof of our race’s ability to escape nature’s cold grasp.
The proof of Natural Selection? If you have the mental capacity to think that there is more work involved dodging cars than there is in pushing a button, and that some how a sky man is telling you that this is the right way to go about it, then it is for the betterment of the species that these people be culled by the merciless grills and wheels of Internalcombustious Automobilous.
Our species however, proves that once again, we are imune to the slings and arrows of mother nature and instead are glad to hand them a crutch, admirable at times, but in this case, I feel we are giving undue concern to the stupid. Nothing against Jews, cept for that whole Abrahamic God thing, but this is just too stupid for words (other than the articles, the RF.com blurb, and the comments).
December 18th, 2006 at 1:29 am
The act of walking involves more work than pushing a button. Breathing for the day involves more work.
Is the line arbitrary? Yes. Somewhere in Israel, someone is laughing their ass off at a country club.
December 18th, 2006 at 2:08 am
Wait, you mean those buttons actually do something? I always thought they put them there in an attempt to placate me, kind of like what customer service reps do for major companies.
December 18th, 2006 at 2:32 am
…
December 18th, 2006 at 3:13 am
I think they are going out of their way to be dicks. Wouldn’t the funds be spent better elsewhere, like making crosswalks safer for …say, the BLIND. Here in Washington alot of today’s newer crosswalks now feature a sound blip system that allows you to know when it is safe to cross (for the mostpart)
The point is that if your taking the literal interpetation of something like that, walking, breathing, farting, putting your clothes on, opening the door, walking to the street.
All forms of work.
December 18th, 2006 at 3:43 am
“Standard orthodox teachings dictate that no work is to be done on the Sabbathâ€
Does this imply that there are no acts of aggression from Israel during the Sabbath? Or does pulling the trigger on a M16 and launching cluster bombs classify as “playing†rather than work???
/running for cower
December 18th, 2006 at 4:15 am
That’s an interesting question, since security always seems to be the big excuse for breaking the rules. What if Israel is attacked on the sabbath? I’m certain it has been. Do God’s people break God’s rules to defend God’s country?
Someone look this one up for me. I’m lazy. :p
December 18th, 2006 at 4:25 am
I should have such problems, oy!
December 18th, 2006 at 4:34 am
It’s pretty complex with the IDF’s procedures regarding how they operate. Not many orthodox jews are in the Israeli Military, in fact most of Israel is Atheist.
Basically, if Israel is attacked they shit can whatever they are doing and go about fighting back.
I guess the big word here is “Orthodox Jew” there’s a big line between them and the regular Goldstein.
Basically the IDF is like the American Military, ready to go at a moment’s notice.
December 18th, 2006 at 5:10 am
“Not many orthodox jews are in the Israeli Military, in fact most of Israel is Atheist.”
Stats please?
December 18th, 2006 at 5:25 am
As of 1999, 5% of Israeli Jews defined themselves as Haredim (”ultra-orthodox”); an additional 12% as “religious”; 35% as “traditionalists” (not strictly adhering to Jewish law or halakha); 43% as “secular”; and 5% as “anti-religious.” Among all Israeli Jews, 65% believe in God and 85% participate in a Passover seder [2].
Leibman, Charles S. and Elihu Katz, eds. The Jewishness of Israelis: Responses to the Guttman Report. SUNY Press, 1997.
I say atheist in the Jewish sense. It’s a long story.
December 18th, 2006 at 5:30 am
Let me rephrase “A huge chuck of Israel is atheist.” It’s 2:30 in the morning and I haven’t had my coffee and this place has no edit button.
December 18th, 2006 at 7:18 am
That sounds a bit more like it. :)
Consider what the results would be if you surveyed Christians or even Muslims with the same options. How many would like the idea of labeling themselves as ultra orthodox (might as well say fundamentalist crazies)? How about religious? Both carry very negative connotations, whereas something like “traditional” (but not strict) is generally considered positive so you would expect more to go for that. Then you have the secular category, which as far as I can tell is ambiguous at best. For example, many Christians I know of consider themselves secular simply because they don’t like to think of themselves as following a religion and go out of their way not to be church members or admit to followings specific leaders, etc.
Something to think about, no? Blah blah blah critical thinking blah blah, etc. ;)
December 18th, 2006 at 7:43 am
The numbers posted by Revlic are really interesting, but I think there are some reasons to doubt the categories. I think ill still have to define these people as religious nut jobs ;)
The reason for me doing so is that most of the people living there has actually moved there by their own free will, and this begs the question: Who in their right mind would move to Israel (read Israeli settlers), putting their children and loved ones into the line of fire, if one do not believe there is a higher cause behind it all?
Call me crazy, me being under the impression that we have only one chance at life, no bonus rounds for good behaviour, and no paradise, would never endanger my family or myself for ANY reason.
Give me a gun and ask me to conquer some land and you wont even have time to blink before im off to the hills. If you want to forsake your one chance at life for some reason that’s fine by me, but do not ask me to do the same, I have no need for being a unsung hero, ill rather keep my family safe from harm.
December 18th, 2006 at 9:25 am
I want to scream obscenities as loud as I can. There shouldn’t even be a discussion over this matter and the Australian government certainly shouldn’t consider spending money for this reason. Even bringing the topic up to the politicians is shitty imo.
Excuse me, I have some screaming to do.
December 18th, 2006 at 10:10 am
These guys must have good friends at the company that is manufacturing the high tech sensors. I wouldn’t be surprised to know that the company is owned by jews too.
In my opinion, pushing the button is just an excuse. Like Arktis says, isn’t opening the front door of their house even mork work than pushing a button?
I may just have been unlucky, but of the few Orthodox Jews that i met, all were hard-core scammers. They are very smart people. I don’t think they actually care about the button pushing.
December 18th, 2006 at 10:24 am
Weird how pulling the underwear drawer’s ‘button’ is not work, no?
December 18th, 2006 at 11:02 am
Maybe they don’t understand how to operate the button. Most people in my town don’t. The trick is that you only push the button once, not over and over again. Pushing the button more times does not make the light change any faster. I’ve seen so many college students pushing that button over and over again… it does start to seem like needless work!
December 18th, 2006 at 11:46 am
wonder pushing that button to flush the toilet constitutes ‘work.’
“”There shouldn’t even be a discussion over this matter and the Australian government certainly shouldn’t consider spending money for this reason.”"
well, It would work wonders for the blind or severly visually impaired. A friend of mine is blind, and he’s usually very pissed about the trafficlights that have a button seperate from the light itself. Try finding that pole, and no wildly swishing about your cane, you might hit someone.
“”Wait, you mean those buttons actually do something? “”
They announce to the drivers that you’re about to run a red light.
December 18th, 2006 at 1:11 pm
I’m pretty sure there’s a loophole that says an Orthodox Jew is required to break any Shabbat law if it threatens a human life. Therefore, this cannot possibly be a matter of safety, merely convenience. So really, it’s only an issue for the people who haven’t realized that standing around waiting for half an hour takes more effort than pushing a button. And for those of you who would argue that pushing a button is expressly forbidden because it “exercises control over one’s environment”, guess what? The proposed solution lets people stop traffic by triggering a sensor, rather than pushing a button. It’s the same exact level of control, so triggering the sensor counts as the same amount of work. Now we’ll have some Orthodox Jews complaining that they’re not even allowed to approach intersections on the Sabbath. Maybe we need to build underground tunnels or something…
December 18th, 2006 at 1:36 pm
If I remember from the how eruvin discussion, orthodox Jews are not allowed to do work outside the home on the Sabbath. Thus they are permitted to perform such hard work as flushing, opening underwear drawers, and opening front doors as long as they are home, or in an eruv!
Still, as gasmonso pointed out, it takes more work to walk up to the intersection (which is outside their homes and, in most cases, not encased in an eruv), so the complaint is still hypocritical.
December 18th, 2006 at 2:48 pm
———————————
———————————
———————————
——————————/\-
Brain wave activity of who ever ‘noticed’ this.
(The blip at the end is an artifact produced by the equipment and thus should be ignored)
December 18th, 2006 at 3:24 pm
NewOne:
Often results of this style are so broad is because it would be unfair. Another thing, One can be a traditional jew, but still be atheist. As you said, the data can be kinda skewed, but what sorta poll isn’t? =P
Regarding immigration to Israel, plenty of people move there, just stay the hell away from the borders and your set.
December 18th, 2006 at 6:28 pm
Simple solution to avoid those hideously expensive sensors just to placate people who could as well adapt their religion, but are too bloodyminded to do so:
Simply have a rabbi declare the little plastic ring around the button an eruv.
Or, if that is not satisfactory, have a teeny bit of wire placed around it.
December 18th, 2006 at 7:14 pm
Wow, this is a first time I’ve had to take an opposing stance on this website. I live in Vancouver, BC Canada; and here in the city, ALL our lights and intersections have a motion/human sensor for the crosswalks.
They are actually cheaper to maintain in the long run, and are pretty easy to use. (Not that pushing a button isn’t universally understood) It’s actually more of shame the Jewish community had to be the only ones pushing this; but for high volume intersections, this is actually a really good idea. On the other hand, age old Religions using technology to better a community does seem kind of hypocritical.
I had a BLT today and thought, fuck I love pork!
December 18th, 2006 at 9:11 pm
So under that list in Wikipedia I noticed was included, “Putting out a fire”. So, um, just hypothetically…
No, I won’t go there.
Perhaps it’s just me and my twisted view of religion, but when your law lists regulations regarding such things as “Kneading” and “Marking hides” you should come to realize that the day of authorship will not live on forever, and things will change. The details that you live by will change, but it’s the message that you should understand (in my opinion). From what I understand, the point of not working on the Sabbath is so that the day is spent focusing on God. Instead of whining about a button maybe the Jews in question should just focus on what they are supposed to be focusing on, yes?
December 18th, 2006 at 9:53 pm
“well, It would work wonders for the blind or severly visually impaired. A friend of mine is blind, and he’s usually very pissed about the trafficlights that have a button seperate from the light itself. Try finding that pole, and no wildly swishing about your cane, you might hit someone.”
I did write “over this reason” :) And besides, I personally wouldn’t spend government money on making such a small thing easier for the visually or otherwise impaired. I’d concentrate on bigger issues like safety, access to buildings etc. But if they’re cheaper in the long rung, as Shaze suggests, everyone’s a winner.
I feel happier knowing that others will benefit from this lunacy at least :)
December 18th, 2006 at 11:58 pm
The existing pedestrian crossing buttons in Sydney already have quite good features for the visually impaired - they beep constantly so that they can initially be found, and then when the signal changes the rate of the beep changes to indicate “green”.
In addition, for deaf and blind people, there is an area above the button (the arrow section in the image with the story) also pulses in time with the audible beep to allow them to know when the signal has changed.
My main objection with this is that there are more important issues that our Roads & Traffic Authority could be spending money on, such as young driver education given the large number of fatalities we’ve seen involving this group in recent times.
The fact that public money is being spent to service a small group, that they only “need” (and I use the term loosely) for 1 day a week, just seems crazy to me…
December 19th, 2006 at 12:33 am
I thought I’d look into if there was a Sydney eruv after reading the back-linked article and comments, and while I confess to not knowing anything about Jewish laws at all, it seems that the vast majority of the road on which these signals are to be installed is surrounded by an eruv. See http://www.sydneyeruv.org.au/ for details including a detailed map.
They have a list of things that may be carried and activities that you may perform, and I find it hard to believe that if you are allowed to push a baby stroller around, that you can’t also push a button so that you may safely cross the road?
December 19th, 2006 at 1:48 am
@Revlic
congrats to israel at being that secular. my issues with the jewish religion aside, and with israels foreign policy (of which i’m increasingly fond of as the years go by) i think israel is a great country from which a lot of us could learn? why you ask? we have a small group of people here of mostly european origin. and they have been exposed to extremely harsh and hostile circumstances. and they survived. there is a concept much familiar to us that we hold so dear… in no way do i make a connection between the modern state of israel and judaism, much like i would not make a connection between the USA and todays xtianism. i hope that one day the united states can post that high of a number of secular people…
December 19th, 2006 at 2:40 am
Boris,
I see now where are you coming from?, you are anti Muslims, but ofcourse no body can label you as such here.
Your comments shows me how you hate Muslims, that’s why you are fond of Israeli foreign policy.
Israeli foreign policy that get their butts kicked in south Lebanon :)
December 19th, 2006 at 4:07 am
“Exposed to extremely harsh and hostile circumstancesâ€. Of course they are exposed to these kind of circumstances. I would also be exposed to harsh and hostile people if I stole my neighbours land, house and belongings.
And don’t start that BS about not being stolen. There are thousands of Palestinians which have gotten their land expropriated (and then given to some Israeli settler) by Israel because no one claimed the house during time window israel set forth. WTF, how are one to claim anything when you are running for your life, and/or placed in a refugee camp 100 miles away? Anyway, the “harsh and hostile circumstances†are 100% self imposed, and there is nothing to learn there. Its like cutting of ones finger and learn to live without one. Sure its painful, and a sacrifice, but its still a stupid thing to do and to no benefit what so ever.
If there is anything one can learn from Isreal as a state, it is that a people/nation can be traumatized as well as any child. Hit and molest your child and there is a increased chance he will do the same to his/her children. Do the same to a people/nation and you will see they will develop the same tendency in the future. Don’t believe me? Well ask your self what is the status of slavery in Liberia? Did this “Land of the Free,” which was founded as an independent nation for free-born and formerly enslaved African Americans, learn from their experience, did they abandon slavery at once, or was this country the last to do so. Is human trafficking and slavery history in Liberia today or is it a enormous problem?
Final word: I know that this is a forum for discussing religion and not politics, but something just needs to be said. I will try to restrain myself next time.
December 19th, 2006 at 4:56 am
Yes, please no politics. Out of courtesy, for the time being at least. Maybe there will be a sub-forum for that in the future when the forums are up and running.
I’m personally tempted to respond but I won’t.
December 19th, 2006 at 7:35 am
I thought it was common knowledge the blasted buttons were a placebo. And who doesn’t use the sensors already?
December 19th, 2006 at 10:24 am
@mohamed
let’s settle the score here. i am anti-muslim. i also happen to hate muslims. not just the fundies, all of ya. there… happy now? btw, i wasn’t being sarcastic or anything.
December 19th, 2006 at 10:27 am
also, israels hands were tied by this modern concept of fighting wars with PR. israel is so far advanced above those hezbolah sheep f-ers they could have obliterated the whole country had they wanted to. unfortunately, they weren’t able to.
December 19th, 2006 at 10:54 am
boris…
-_-;
December 19th, 2006 at 9:58 pm
Boris,
Thank you, you gave me the chance to show who you are and what’s your feeling, here is another example for an Athiest has no values, and he acts like he is perfect.
Huzballah make the Israeli soldiers cry, wa wa:),just teasing you Boris, I don’t agree with Huzballah but I really admired how they stood their ground and show how cowred the Israeli are.
Thank you.
December 19th, 2006 at 10:10 pm
Mohamed, what are you talking about? So what if Boris is an Atheist. That is not the sole reason for his bigotry. There are plenty of Christians and Jews that feel the same way as Boris.
And as for Huzballah being a powerful force, that is just laughable. There are several reasons why Israel didn’t destroy them, but being scared is not one of them. They have enough firepower to destroy them 10x over.
They launched thousands of missiles and didn’t do any damage. They just stood there and took a beating. That’s not impressive… it’s sad.
Politics determined the outcome of that battle. That’s it.
gasmonso
December 19th, 2006 at 11:07 pm
Gasonmo,
That’s my point, that Athiest has some of them like Boris and they have the same attitude, like killing and destroying, it’s not just about Muslims or christians.
About Huzbaallah, I really don’t agree with them, and I think that this war empowers Huzballah and make them political power in the region, and if you follow the news now, it’s getting worse in Lebanon, and now they asking to controll the government in Lebanon.
The only thing that I feel good about what happened, they showed that using power and arrogance doesn’t break people will.
December 19th, 2006 at 11:45 pm
Well I agree with you on one thing… power and arrogance definitely don’t break the people’s will, it usually does just the opposite.
gasmonso
December 24th, 2006 at 3:50 pm
Is pushing the toilet button to flush it considered ‘work’? or do Jews NOT go to the toilet at all since they would have to open the door (work?) push the flushing button?…
December 24th, 2006 at 5:25 pm
Since you missed my point earlier, I’ll reiterate it here. Jews are permitted to do work on the Sabbath as long as they are not in a public area. Thus opening doors and flushing toilets in their own homes does not violate their ridiculously arbitrary laws.
December 31st, 2006 at 10:07 pm
I can’t believe it, its almost 2007 and you guys are still at it. At least we Jews give you something to talk about. Here is the idea again: Work means among other things conscious purposeful control of technology/energy– especially energy created by fire which includes electric energy. On the seventh day we sit back from the wonderous technology that humanity has created (using our God-given brains during the other 6 days of the week) and enjoy it. Is that really so hard for you to understand? We don’t light fires and we don’t turn on or off electrical applicances or traffic lights — NOT EVEN INSIDE OUR ERUV! Non Jews are not bound by these particular laws so if you, a non Jew, pushes the button for your own needs I can also cross with you (but I can’t ask you to do it for me). The detectors being described would not work so far as I know (but I’m not a Rabbi). There is one sort of exception — one can create new life on the Sabbath (I think it’s a blessing to do so) but that’s not really a technology creation.
I realize that some view adherence to a set of religious laws as being silly from their perspective (you probably laugh at all sorts of things that are different from you — that’s known as intolerance and has been a plague of humanity forever_ but am a bit surprised that you “rationalists†never seem to be able to fathom the logic behind the rules which are really extremely self consistent.
when it comes to saving a life or self defense when it obligated to save a life and take any and all steps to do so. This over-rides any specific prohibitions of the Sabbath and is part of the general law that one must try to keep Gods “Sabbaths”, plural, that is live to keep the next Sabbath.
Carrying in a public domain is prohibited on the Sabbath but most forms of work are forbidden whether inside or outside the Eruv. One can flush the toilet but not an electric toilet. This can create a problem with toilets that flush based on one walking away from the toilet.
Buy the way, the concept of the Sabbath is considered by many to have been something that has helped keep the Jewish people together throughout the centuries which means its not so much that Jews keep the Sabbath but that the Sabbath keeps the Jews.
Happy secular New Year for those of you who celebrate the bris (circumcision) of Jesus, born on Christmas and circumcised 8 days later as is the requirement for Jewish male children — from before the time of Jesus till the present day.
rlee
February 14th, 2007 at 3:08 pm
Most ‘work’ as defined from a Jewish perspective involves creation or destruction.
You aren’t allowed to tear or cut, you aren’t allowed to set fire to things/put out fires.
Any electricity that is on at the time that sundown hits must stay on and anything off must stay off.
Carrying is not allowed unless you are within an eruv, and even then, I think there are some restrictions then.
Cooking, too, is okay as long as you start before sundown. Stews in crock pots or cold-cuts bought before hand are very often served for lunch on the sabbath.
Handling money and tools are not allowed either.
I didn’t do a lot of practicing when I was younger, and so I kind of just learned the rules of the road, as it were, even though I never had bothered with following the silly things.
February 14th, 2007 at 3:09 pm
“I didn’t do a lot of practicing when I was younger” That is to say, I still don’t.
heh
March 6th, 2007 at 9:13 pm
No working on the sabbath… does that mean in Israel there is no power/water/ambulances etc?
December 3rd, 2007 at 10:57 pm
[...] religious sect known as the Haredim. Some of you might remember them from the infamous “crosswalk” article I wrote a year [...]
December 4th, 2007 at 11:59 am
In Judaism there is always an exception for health. If you can get out of fasting because you aren’t feeling so hot, I can’t see something this silly being allowed to pose a threat. This is just stupidity.
December 17th, 2007 at 5:38 pm
its a good thing they allow creation of a new life, are they talking about conception here or birth? It makes sense in the case of birth, can’t really forestall that easily or safely once its started if you aren’t allowed to do work. Heck, its probably hard to do anyway.
May 2nd, 2008 at 7:36 pm
I’m jewish, so I believe I can clarify this issue.
I believe that main problem is not that there is work involved, but that the buttons are electronic. On shabbat, Orthodox Jews do not use any sort of electricity.
Don’t get me wrong, I am in no way Orthodox. I’m reform, and I think all the religious nutjobs in the world, regardless of religious affiliation, need to settle down.
May 3rd, 2008 at 2:36 pm
Wait, which verse says Jews can’t use electricity on the Shabbat? That must take some horribly creative interpretation.
June 9th, 2008 at 2:24 pm
Couldn’t Catholics against birth control accidently slip and somehow get a condom on there penis or accidently take a birth control pill? They are ORTHODOX this is their belief. It is no different to tell an anti abortionist to “accidently” fall down the stairs or somehow have a miscarriage.