Here's a classic clip that showed on Qatar television a few years ago. It's a debate between female talk show host Al-Shazli and a lawyer named Dr. Ibrahim Elias. I have seen some videos like this before, but Elias has some choice quotes. Here are a few to chew on:
The phenomenon of beatings is widespread, but does religion support beatings? No, religion is a means of therapy. When Allah said in the Koran "and beat them," he didn't establish it as a rule, but as a means of therapy.
Oh, so beating your wife is just like giving her a couple pills for a headache. Nice.
For example, a man comes home from work and finds his wife watching TV. She doesn't even get up to make him food. He tells her once, twice, and asks again. If only once he would raise his voice and beat her, she would get up to prepare food for him and by the next day she'd be obedient. This will last for a week and when she forgets, he will remind her. Let's admit it, the woman was created from a crooked rib.
Thanks to Tiberiu for the scoop! You can view the transcript here.
Related posts:
- Muslim Cabbies Ditch Common Sense In Favor Of Islam
- Crazy Muslim Assaults Life-Saving Doctor
- Common Sense And Courtesy Absent In Islam
- Islam–Deaf, Dumb And Blind?
- Don’t Dis Islam Or Else!
January 5th, 2007 at 1:21 pm
…which is why taking a book that is a good 1,400 years old literally might be a bad idea. Back then wife beating may very well have been an okay thing to do. But back then so was slavery, genocide of the enemy, and all that other fun stuff. Some people still believe in those things, true, but that’s how we get to this story.
In conclusion, human beings suck.
January 5th, 2007 at 1:58 pm
Id personally like to meet this guy in a dark alley with a rusty bike chain and I can show him what’s it’s like to instill “discipline”. I was raised to respect everyone.
But I give the girls who talked to these guys about it they are far stuck behind the world in regards to feminism.
January 5th, 2007 at 2:51 pm
A couple of points:
1. What seems to be forgotten is that Wife beating can be very therapeutic stress relief for the husband too, and thus should be considered positive for all participants involved.
2. It can often be proven that the wife is in need of a light beating by virtue of the fact that she objects. An objecting woman is obviously not following the tenets of her religion by allowing herself to be beaten lightly. Frequent violation should therefore be upgraded to a light stoning.
3. In more “civilised” Europe, similar practices abound. The Finnish, for example, resort frequently to the highly immoral act of Wife *Carrying*, which has not been made permissible anywhere in any sacred texts, let alone Islamic ones. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wife_Carrying).
Dave
PS Not all above are altogether serious…
January 5th, 2007 at 3:07 pm
I think that guy sees the sheer absurdity in what he’s saying, ’cause I could swear that fucker was smirking at the beginning.
I find all of this truly amazing.
Where’s our regular Muslim poster, Mohamed? What’s he gonna say? I’m eagerly awaiting…
January 5th, 2007 at 4:35 pm
If the light beatings don’t work are light stabbings allowed? Possibly light shootings? Light on the mayo?
All just silly nonsense. To think there are still idiots who defend this crap is just boggling to me.
January 5th, 2007 at 4:56 pm
Holeeeee Shit!
I really didn’t realize how much Misogyny still existed in the world. May the people of the world one day stand up against all religion, and banish it from our society.
I’d love to start up a free service in Turkey or whererever, where wives can call for support. Then we just show up, and start “mediating” the arguement. (Like COPS) :)
Fuck it, the middle east needs a good nuking.
January 5th, 2007 at 4:56 pm
Keep in mind that the “lightness” of the beatings is only one translation. Other translations of Qur’an 4:34 instruct that the husband should “beat her” or “scourge her.” No mention that he should do it lightly.
Subsequently, Islamic “scholars” have made up the idea that the beatings should be done with a small wooden toothbrush (miswak), which to me seems reminiscent of various U.S. state laws of the 19th century that legislated the maximum size of the stick with which a man could beat his wife. (Arguably, that is the origin of the “rule of thumb” as the stick/rod/switch could not be larger in diameter than the man’s thumb.)
And as for Mr Elias’ smirk, I suspect it wasn’t because he recognized the absurdity of his words, but was instead because he relished the thought of beating his wife.
January 5th, 2007 at 5:55 pm
@DeusExMichael: THere are still people who defend it because there are still so many people who will actually LISTEN to them.
The real issue here is that the belief system is exploitable and so there will always be people willing to stick up for it if only just to be able to continue exploiting it.
At least that’s the way I see it. Also, rofl @ “light stabbings” :D
January 5th, 2007 at 6:36 pm
What can I say?
Welcome to my world.
January 5th, 2007 at 7:06 pm
Oh? I’ve been of this mindset for quite some time now. Maybe I should have been the one to welcome you to MY world when the light came on in YOUR head. :p
January 6th, 2007 at 10:21 pm
revlic Says:
“Id personally like to meet this guy in a dark alley with a rusty bike chain and I can show him what’s it’s like to instill “disciplineâ€. I was raised to respect everyone.
But I give the girls who talked to these guys about it they are far stuck behind the world in regards to feminism.”
You don’t have to go to Qatar to meet that kind of man. They exist here in the United States. I am sure men like him have appeared on the Jerry Springer show.
I have seen on American television, debates (that included psychologists) about whether or not it is helps to discipline children by beating them.
Hey, where are the women’s burkas? In Western media, the only images they show of women, in Muslim countries, are dressed from head to toe in black.
January 7th, 2007 at 2:44 am
Artikis,
I really feel like you are my sincer friend, thank you for missing me that much:)
I don’t agree with beating women, if the Quran said that, it has to be right, but I rather not to use it, ask me why?
First, our prophet Muhammed wifes made him mad on many occasions, and he never beat one of them, so I like to be like him, second, my dad always respected my mom, he never beat her, and I would like to be like him, third, I had one of our neighbor in Egypt used to beat his wife, which was rare case for me to see, and I saw how people look at him and say he is not real man to beat his wife.
What Quran said about beating a wife, it’s after nothing worked with her, and about cerain incidents, like not doing what god says and trying to do sins.
January 7th, 2007 at 3:53 am
You say Muhammed never beat his wife? It took me only a few seconds to track down something that says YOU’RE WRONG.
“Fortunately, we don’t have to guess at what Muhammad’s position on wife-beating actually was and which meaning of ‘daraba’ he intended, since the Hadith records at least one instance in which he struck his own (underage) wife in the chest while she was lying in bed. This would be Aisha, his favorite wife, and he did so because she left the house without his permission. Now, if he treated his favorite wife this way, one can only imagine how he might have acted toward his other wives, concubines and slaves.
Naturally, the apologists leave this little tidbit out of their arguments. Neither do they educate their audience of another case that is recorded in one of Islam’s most sacred books in which a woman came to Muhammad for help after being beaten so badly by her husband that “her skin was greener than her clothes.” The prophet simply rebuked the woman and sent her back to her man with explicit instructions to have more sex.”
It sure sounds to me like you are wrong, Mohamed. You need to be more educated about your own religion since you’re such a proclaimer of how great it is.
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Articles/WifeBeating.htm
January 7th, 2007 at 3:53 am
RandallJones says:
“Hey, where are the women’s burkas? In Western media, the only images they show of women, in Muslim countries, are dressed from head to toe in black.”
Do you trust western media to portray an acccurate picture in anything else? If not, why this? ;)
January 7th, 2007 at 4:33 pm
Artikis,
The website you link to took liberties concerning the story of the lady with the green spot on her skin as can be seen from the original source the website uses http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/072.sbt.html#007.072.715
As for you saying “It sure sounds to me like you are wrong, Mohamed. You need to be more educated about your own religion since you’re such a proclaimer of how great it is.â€
I wonder if you would say the same thing to Jews. Because there is a book called “Judaism’s Strange Gods†by Michael A. Hoffman were it says ob page 51:
“Sexual Intercourse with Little Girls is Permissible
Ketubot lIb: “If a grown-up man has intercourse with a little girl, it is nothing, for having intercourse with a girl less than three years old is like putting a finger in the eye.”
Though the Talmud’s permission for the heinous crime of child molestation is virtually unknown among the public and is never mentioned in the establishment media, among Talmud researchers it is notorious.
This portion of tractate Ketubot concerns Halakhic definitions of sexual intercourse. In this particular ruling it is stated that copulation with girls below the age of three cannot be considered sexual activity because, although penetration ruptures her hymen, such intercourse is merely “like putting a finger in the eye,” since the hymen at this age will eventually regenerate (just as a finger stuck in an eye will cause the eye to water, yet the eye will heal and return to its former state, so the hymen of a girl under three will rupture during intercourse but will heal later).
Once her hymen grows back, the little girl is regarded as lawfully still a virgin. Hence the Talmud recognizes no sexual intercourse as having occurred and therefore exacts no penalty for coitus with a female child of less than three years of age.”
In addition it discusses how Jewish religious scriptures are prejudiced against non-Jews and many other negative things that Muslims are often accused of.
What about the fact that many American are ignorant about many negative aspects about the Founding Fathers or Christopher Columbus? Do you do research on this and demand of Americans why are they ignorant of their country?
Some Westerners complain and ask why aren’t Muslims reinterpreting Islam to correspond to today’s “Western values.†There are Muslims who are doing just that, yet it appears that you want Muslims to stick to the most harsh interpretation of Islam.
January 7th, 2007 at 4:55 pm
I could care less how favorably or unfavorably your religion or anyone else’s religion compares to another. As far as I am concerned, you’re all dimwitted and dangerous to the future of mankind. This in in terms of freedom and human rights. Jews, Muslims, Christians - they’re all a threat to personal freedoms. They dull the mind and incite violence, and hinder progress. And people like you wonder why the world is such a horrible place. It’s because YOU allow it to be, by believing in things that let you be exploited and controlled. It’s your own fault.
So please, spare me the scapegoat crap. “But Jews are so terrible! They make us look great!” You’re just showing me your bigotry. You should ask yourself why you need to point the finger of hatred at Jews to make yourself feel better.
January 7th, 2007 at 5:10 pm
Hello? ReligiousFreaks.com to Mohammed:
We do not believe in any religion. So stop making execuses! What you are saying sounds like “Yes, maybe islam isn’t perfect, but look at jewdism, it’s much worse.” Newsflash: We think jewdism is just as bad as islam is.
Can you please try to understand that? It will do you very well to remember for future discussions.
January 7th, 2007 at 5:23 pm
Nice but RandalJones made that post, not Mohamed. But Mohamed does try to do the same thing, even if his english sucks.
January 7th, 2007 at 5:27 pm
Agony,
It was not Mohammed who mentioned Judaism. IT was me.
I also mention the negative aspects of America’s founding fathers as well as Christopher Columbus.
Or forget about the past, what about the present, why don’t you say anything about while United States and other Western countries preach human rights and democracy, they engage in regime change and support brutal dictators and sell weapons to fuel wars?
January 7th, 2007 at 5:30 pm
I do say some of those things. But this is a religious discussion site, not a conspiracy theory site.
And now you’re avoiding the issue. Instead of answering the problems raised with Islam, you’re ignoring them and pointing the finger at other people.
This is not helping your case in the slightest bit.
January 7th, 2007 at 7:32 pm
“”Do you trust western media to portray an acccurate picture in anything else? If not, why this? ;)”"
that should read like
(snip)Do you trust (snip) media (sniP)? ;)
Well, even though judaism is ‘just as bad’ insulting muslims makes everyone agree with you, where insulting jews makes you an antisemite. That however is a discussion for another time.
To get back on topic.
I’ve been seriously trying to think of something usefull to say about this, but I can’t think of anything anyone with half a mind can’t deduce for himself.
I do wonder if he would be as adamant if it said that you could beat your husband.
January 7th, 2007 at 7:40 pm
“”Some Westerners complain and ask why aren’t Muslims reinterpreting Islam to correspond to today’s “Western values.†There are Muslims who are doing just that, yet it appears that you want Muslims to stick to the most harsh interpretation of Islam.”"
Erm, could you explain how you came to this conclusion?
but the thing about ‘reinterpreting islam’ makes me laugh. How can you possibly reinterpret the thruth? I mean, if your religion is right, you can’t just go change it to suit modern needs.
changing your interpretation of your sacred texts is either saying that you were wrong before the change, or that you are wrong now. “I used to think A and I was right, But now I think B and i’m still right!”
something doesn’t quite add up.
The only way you can ‘reinterpreti Islam to correspond to today’s “Western values.’ Is by being either extremely naive or totally ignorant and blindy follow what you’re told.
Probably the second, if you allready believe what’s written in the Quran/bible/whatever
January 7th, 2007 at 10:35 pm
Alcari wrote:
“but the thing about ‘reinterpreting islam’ makes me laugh. How can you possibly reinterpret the thruth? I mean, if your religion is right, you can’t just go change it to suit modern needs.”
Because the Quran was compiled after the death of the prophet of Islam and Hadith (the sayings and actions of the prophet) were compiled a couple of centuries after the prophet’s death, you will find Muslims who will say they question the veracity of certain parts of the Quaran and Hadiths.
But this is no different than those who write History books. We are taught one thing in school, than later on we learn that this isn’t exactly how it happened. Even with current affairs, you can go to different media outlets and you will found the same event told diffrently, with diffrent facts included.
January 8th, 2007 at 2:15 am
It’s just so weird, Western values, where is that values?
I just don’t see it, give me one value, being gay, being drunk, being gambler and ruin your whole family.
Freedom is not value, it’s right from god and it has limits, it get abused sometimes, but it’s right, and I see that the westerner losing it now.
Tell me please how you define values. Values is different from culture to another culture, it can’t be measured based on one culture, and that’s your problem, you can’t accept any other culture.
You become close minded, you don’t want give the chance to you brain to understand people, to see how they live, to know what are they suffering from, what’s their circumstances.
Most of the people here and not all of you, found him self in a good country, where you have place to live and have food to eat, you just judge blindly without knowledge, you didn’t see by your eyes.
I had different idea about the American before I came to USA, but I didn’t hate them, but when I saw how the Americans are, I got used to their ideas( I didn’t do the same though), but I understood how they think and I respected it.
January 8th, 2007 at 2:36 am
@Mohamed.
PLEASE. I’m not going to respond to the western values thing, but PLEASE. “BEING GAY”? It’s not a CHOICE. People who are gay are BORN THAT WAY. IT IS PROVEN.
January 8th, 2007 at 2:48 am
Mohamed, the problem is that we understand you too well. Your culture is based around a religion. In case you haven’t noticed, we don’t think too highly of religion around here. We see it as bad, and we’ve proven many times how it is countering valid intellectual progress.
But you don’t seem to want to hear that. You either can’t understand what logic is and why it is valid, or you simply don’t like logic and instead prefer NOT to use it where it applies to your own beliefs. You don’t seem to want to truly examine them with a lens of rationality. Instead you want to point the finger at others and say how horrible they are.
Imagine a world where everyone is as critical of themselves as they are of others. Where everyone does things that make rational sense most of the time (It’s rational to do stupid stuff in the name of having a fun sometimes. People need to relax once in a while, and being irrational is usually the best way.). Where people actually examine a problem instead of using a scapegoat over and over again (like Muslims do with the Jews and “the west”). That would be a much better world than the ones the Christians, Jews, and Muslims have made.
But no, nobody wants to think for themselves. So they end up blaming everyone else for their problems instead of accepting responsibility.
Like you’re still doing.
January 8th, 2007 at 2:53 am
If anyone would care to look around they would see that this isn’t a problem only found among Muslims. How many women have been beaten with a bible or a crucifix? If you let 2000 year old rules govern your life you can’t expect to live according to what we today believe to be correct. No matter what religion you belong to.
So go ahead bash up Muslims and Mohammed if it makes you feel all warm inside, but this is really just an example of how ancient rules can’t be applied to a modern society. Heck go back 100 years see how women are viewed as lesser beings in western countries. The only reason why western countries seems to be more enlightened is that we have had a strong secular forces driving the religious freaks back into their hole (in europe atleast), not that Christianity is more tolerate than Islam in any way.
January 8th, 2007 at 3:02 am
Oh I completely agree. Christians and Jews are to blame for this stuff too. I’ve never said otherwise. I find it funny though, that I am constantly having to say this over and over whenever my criticism is directed at Muslims. It seems like it’s not getting through to people that I’m making a statement about all religions using Islam as an example.
I mean, the NAME OF THE GOD DAMMED SITE IS “RELIGIOUS FREAKS”, NOT “muslim freaks” or “jewish freaks” or “christian freaks” or anything specific to any one religion. It’s about ALL OF THEM.
I’m getting pretty fucking sick of this shit, so you’ll just have to excuse my frustration.
January 8th, 2007 at 6:59 am
Religion is an ugly side of human nature, but human nature itself is uglier.
January 8th, 2007 at 9:05 am
I wrote
“”but the thing about ‘reinterpreting islam’ makes me laugh. How can you possibly reinterpret the thruth? I mean, if your religion is right, you can’t just go change it to suit modern needs.—
You answered:
“”Because the Quran was compiled after the death of the prophet of Islam and Hadith (the sayings and actions of the prophet) were compiled a couple of centuries after the prophet’s death, you will find Muslims who will say they question the veracity of certain parts of the Quaran and Hadiths.
But this is no different than those who write History books.”"
Maybe you didn’t understand the question so i’ll restate the question to this: “Why do you think it is morally right to change the way you look at your religion, when you are certain that it is the right way”
Please read this again, it serves repeating
“”Imagine a world where everyone is as critical of themselves as they are of others. Where everyone does things that make rational sense. Where people actually examine a problem instead of using a scapegoat over and over again. That would be a much better world than the ones the Christians, Jews, and Muslims have made.”"
January 8th, 2007 at 11:38 am
Unfortuntly,
stupid people still exist in this world
January 8th, 2007 at 1:07 pm
Artkis,
The problem that I feel the same way about you, you don’t want to listen and you don’t want to understand.
The problem is not the religion, the problem is the people who misunderstanding the religion, like the terrorist. the misunderstand the religion and use it the way they want.
You wouldn’t come up against Islam if 9/11 wouldn’t to happen, that the chance that some people try to use to bash Islam, and you have the right to bash Islam, because some stupid Muslims give you the chance, other than that, Muslims never committe this kind of crimes.
I know somebody will say the ottman nation did pla pla, they did it for Muslims country too, so they didn’t do it by the name of Islam, they did it for the greed.
You benefit from god existnece like Muslims and Christian and jews, he is the one who will take the justice for you, if somebody do unjust for you, if every body knows that there is a god and know that he will come after him, if he hurts somebody and do unjust, we will be better off, but for sorry some Muslims even forget about it.
January 8th, 2007 at 2:32 pm
RandallJones: “But this is no different than those who write History books. We are taught one thing in school, than later on we learn that this isn’t exactly how it happened. Even with current affairs, you can go to different media outlets and you will found the same event told diffrently, with diffrent facts included.”
But the big difference being, people don’t generally dedicate their lives, and take as utterly literate in some cases, to history books. When religious books are wrong people die.
January 8th, 2007 at 5:29 pm
Mohamed, I do listen to you. Here is how we are different: I use logical standards. You do not.
As for you saying that you can’t blame the religion, you can only blame the people for misunderstanding it: is that not a logical problem for you? Since you can’t prove which interpretation is right, how can you say that they got it wrong and you got it right? How can you say ANYONE got it right? You can’t. You can’t even say that the religion itself is right, because you can’t prove that either.
But you believe in it anyways. That’s irrational.
So again, the difference between you and me is that you’re irrational, and I’m logical.
January 9th, 2007 at 1:24 am
The way I see there is proof for God existence, it’s not going to convince and through logic and experince.
You just can’t see what I see,I didn’t beleive because I born Muslim, I had experinces made me see God, not visually, but I felt the time I needed him the most, he was there for me, I can look at flower and see God through, but you can’t see it this way, how can I provide proof, which your mind is way differnet than mine.
I can see many proofs none of them would convince you, the other thing you can blame Athiesm, becaus it offers nothing, no limits, every thing possible to do, so how can’t I blame it.
January 9th, 2007 at 2:01 am
If you think our minds are so different, you’re wrong.
I used to be christian. I felt the same things you are describing. I can’t even describe to you the way it was. You know what I mean, though.
The people that you hate so much (jews christians) have the same feelings you do. But you say they are wrong and you’re right. That doesn’t make any sense.
“Athiesm, becaus it offers nothing, no limits, every thing possible to do, so how can’t I blame it.”
Life has limits. If you want to have a good life and be happy, you will live with a sensible code. Atheism doesn’t provide you that code because it isn’t supposed to. A man is supposed to think for himself, not let somebody else think for him. The code you live by was forced into you. All you did was accept it. That makes you less of a man.
January 9th, 2007 at 2:19 am
Proof that cannot be peer reviewed and verified is no proof
January 9th, 2007 at 2:28 am
@Mohamed
I do not know if you have noticed, but I have actually been inclined to support some of your stands, since you have shown some willingness to free yourself from some of the more obscure interpretation of the book you try to follow, but now I’m now wondering if I have been wrong all the way. Have I given you credit you did not deserve??
You state: “I can see many proofs none of them would convince you, the other thing you can blame Athiesm, becaus it offers nothing, no limits, every thing possible to do, so how can’t I blame it.â€
I repeat: “it offers nothing, no limits, every thing possible to do, so how can’t I blame it.â€
WTF Mohamed. (The way I understand what you have written) This outlines what I want all to strive for. I do not want a carrot in the end, I don’t want excuses for my actions, I do not want boundaries set by some irrational creature. I want people to realise that what people do and do not, must follow much higher standards than what some fool wrote down 2000 years ago. 2000 years ago people didn’t know 1% of what we know for facts today. So when a situation arises an Atheist do not do whatever he wants, he looks upon the present knowledge and resolves the situation accordingly.
Let me rephrase and clear this up. If you one day wake up and decides to borrow a sailboat for a 3 day trip, would you take a 2000 year old map with you or would you take a modern map? Or mayby even a GPS. Yeah that’s right its just stupid to go sailing with some old map where half of the map is cowered by monsters and the text “there be dragons hereâ€. When more information becomes available get your hands on it and be able to resolve more situations in a *correct* manner.
Science? Religion? I’d rather listen to the guy with the lens in a tube than the guy with the corpse on a stick.
January 9th, 2007 at 2:47 am
Barbaric religions, those of the book. It would be laughable if people like Mohamed weren’t allowed near things that cut,shoot,or explode. Unfortunately, like children, they’re irrational and quick to anger. Not a safe combination.
Oh, by the way, Mohamed,next time your wife doesn’t have dinner ready for you, fix it youself. Or better yet, suprise her with a dinner that YOU made. Would that make allah mad? Would he come down on a magical winged horse and smite you?
People like you make me sick.
January 9th, 2007 at 2:48 am
“2000 year old map”…”where half of the map is covered by monsters and the text ‘there be dragons here’”
That’s funny. I’ll have to remember it. In case there are those of you that don’t know, maps did indeed usually have something written on them to the effect of: “beyond this place, there be dragons”. This was back when people thought the world was flat and there were giant monsters waiting at the edge to swallow ships that got too close.
By the way, Mohamed’s religion is ~1400 years old, not ~2000. You’re thinking of christianity. Mohamed is a muslim.
January 9th, 2007 at 6:38 am
@gabrielAmerican
Mohamed have stated he have noting but contemp for wife-beaters, in fact he hates it so much he completely ignored the passages from the ur’quan talking about them (the same way christians ignore the passages about.. anything but “love thy fellow man” and “don’t like homos”).
You should be angry with him for refusing to realize morals doesn’t come from the book he cherry-picks morals from, not because of stuff he didn’t say.
oh, and the winged horse is muhammad’s ride, allah can get his own magic car.
January 9th, 2007 at 8:04 am
When I see what Arktis and Mohamed write, I really wonder how it’s like to believe in a god.
January 9th, 2007 at 8:14 am
Well, it is like having a chocolate. It is all nice and good until you eat too much of it when you realise that moderation is required. Or you get obsessed with just one flavour which others do not like.
It is still chocolate but all just cannot stand that taste even if they love chocolate. That does not mean other flavours are not chocolate also but for that poor obsessed fellow that is not ‘proper’ chocolate.
and finally if you are all out of chocolate you realize that it was nice to have as long as it lasted but unless you got addicted to it, you do not miss it, the acne it caused or the extra pounds it made you carry around.
January 9th, 2007 at 9:30 am
Nice comparison :) I guess you know it’s not what I meant, but I also guess it’s not realy explainable.
January 9th, 2007 at 11:06 am
Kinda reminds me of Jehova Witnesses:
They never divorce! - If they do they are out of jehova witnesses and thus if you are still in the group, you did not divorce.
They never steal and drink and do drugs or nuthing bad! - those who do just aren’t really jehova witnesses.
Like Mohamed said a couple posts higher up, bad people just are not REAL religious people, they just distort religion…
Sad thing is Mohamed, the mere existence of religions is what is needed for ‘bad’ interpretation.
Who knows, maybe islam IS the real religions and islam’s god really DO want muslims to kill people of other faiths and maybe terrorists really DO go to heavens with virgins and god does like to beat women. It’s not because we do not like terorism that god doesn’t like it. I mean look at sex…
January 9th, 2007 at 1:36 pm
@vk0-
Thanks for the correction. It’s tough to keep all of their nonsense in order.
January 9th, 2007 at 2:53 pm
the problem here is simple….this website serves the intrests of people who do not believe in a convention religion, when in fact by congregating around a common belief…this site is a ‘religion’ in itself…however very different from most religions. The problem is no different if Mohommad went to a christian website and started posting, he would be ridiculed as well, maybe in a different way though.
Humans do not like beliefs that different from their own. very simple. If you want to be a true champion of virtue and tolerance, you would accept anyones beliefs no matter how crazy or irrational they may sound.
no one can see everything from the top. we all make judgements based on our surroundings. no one is truly objective and therefore it is almost ridulous to even debate these things or anything for that matter.
but then life would be boring ;)
I find myself always playing the devils advocate even if i agree with someones view point, just to makes things interesting.
If you try to be as objective as possible, i believe that is true wisdom.
January 9th, 2007 at 5:17 pm
…
Some people will just never “get it”, no matter what. I really don’t know how to keep responding to people that want to say atheism is like a religion. I just… I’m tired of literally proving them wrong.
One thing I;ve learned from this site is that some people just aren’t smart enough to figure things out, even when you put the truth right in front of their nose and wiggle it around.
Can I get someone else who knows what I am talking about to just kinda tell this guy what I mean, or do I have to do this myself again? I don’t want to. :/ There’s already similar posts from me all over this site with the stuff I am talking about.
January 9th, 2007 at 5:22 pm
Oh fuck…
I just want to add that We all have our own ideas here. There’s no holy doctrine. There’s only one things agnostics/atheists really have in common with eachother, and that’s the complete lack of belief in anything that can’t be tested. From there, not many people really agree.
Religion my ass.
January 9th, 2007 at 5:24 pm
What does Allah say about beating my neighbors wife? This lady lets her dog poop in my yard. You can’t really blame the dog, you know?…
Or, should I go talk to my neighbor’s husband and ask him to beat her for me.
And/or, could we both beat her? But who get firsties?
Being a new Muslim isn’t easy…
January 9th, 2007 at 6:27 pm
Witness’s anger me too much.
January 9th, 2007 at 6:50 pm
I used to date one.
When we were in high school.
Jehovah’s witnesses are not allowed to date when they are that young.
She gave me literature on all kinds of things, trying to explain her beliefs to me.
All while she was violating them by being my girlfriend.
[/sharing]
January 9th, 2007 at 7:09 pm
well you didnt really understand what i meant when i said like a religion …. define religion please. my understanding is that religion consists of many things…let me see if religious freaks meats the guidelines…
1)people congregating and having similar beliefs…check
2)people dismissing other people beliefs in favor of their own….check
3)a group of people containing a few fanatics…..check
everyone has their beliefs and since there are more religious people than atheists, we tend to see more stupidity from religious people. if there was 3 billion atheists out there, this site would prolly be called atheistfreaks.com
basically, all im saying is get over yourself, you’re atheist….whoopideedoo.
if you read my whole post you would have also noticed that i said arguing over religion is pointless, and achieves nothing. so unless your going to go hitler style and start taking out jews arabs what not, theres is no point in arguing.
although i will admit it is fun to watch videos of retards.
January 9th, 2007 at 7:43 pm
Fanatics… ROFL.
You know, you don’t have to believe what I do, or what anyone else does. Nobody is really trying to convert you. This would be impossible, since atheism is simply a lack of belief. Not a disbelief, or a belief, but a complete lack of belief. So when you say we’re dismissing other people’s beliefs in favor of our own… you are totally misunderstanding what atheism is.
So yeah, I still think you don’t get it.
All we’re really doing is pointing out how irrational and exploitable religious people are. Which isn’t very hard. The only hard part is actually getting you guys to use critical thinking. When logic succeeds, you get something that is both provable and objective. But you guys seem to be immune to that type of understanding. Anyways…
That’s pretty much all I have to say in response. I wonder if any of this is getting through…
January 9th, 2007 at 11:19 pm
@Arktis
The problem with Mr. Farty seems to be his rough and rickety conflation of “religion” with the far larger and general term, “in-group,” rather that his misunderstanding of atheism (which, yes, he probably doesn’t understand very well).
@Bill Farty
You said that “arguing over religion is pointless, and achieves nothing.”
Wow. Thanks. That’s deep. You know, you’ve come to a website whose raison d’etre is laughing at religion (esp, it’s freaky fringes) and arguing with the freaks who choose to try to defend that idiocy. You came here to RF, not the other way around.
Do you realize that you are, essentially, now arguing that the rest of us should stop arguing? And solely because you, in your infinite wisdom, have deemed it a waste of time?
BFarty: “define religion please”
Do you regularly use common words whose definitions you fundamentally misunderstand?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion
Perhaps also see
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In-group
mkaybye.
January 9th, 2007 at 11:21 pm
That last one was me, fotomatt.
Don’t know why it didn’t “take.”
January 10th, 2007 at 1:38 am
First of all, who ever said Muhammed pushed his wife in her chest, I will assume this story is true, did you hear he punch her in the face, or he beat the hell out of her.
All I remember from the stories, that he complained about her to her father, and her father started to beat her, and he is the one who got her under her dad arms.
The other thing, I didn’t run away that my book said you could beat your wife in certain circumstances, and he said after that, but if you treated her nicely, it’s better for you. I would like to choose it’s better for you, add to that, I can’t beat somebody I know, even if I got in fight with a friend, if he hits me, I wouldn’t even answer, because I will bad hurting him, so what about my wife.
I don’t decline what the Quran said, I just I have personnal judgment which is something Islam allowed me to choose from.
Athiest still beleif, I don’t argue if you are good perosn or not, I have Athiest friend, and I know how good is he?, and most of the people here as I understand is highly educated, other than that, I wouldn’t even stay in this site for one second. There some stupid people, but they are few.
Athies is really danger with people are not educated, the same like any other religion is dangerous with people are not educated.
January 10th, 2007 at 3:50 am
@Mohamed
Education is not the answer if educated people refuse to face facts. Many college graduates believe the world was created in 6 days, or in virgin births, or in magical winged horses, or in fortune tellers, or boogy-men, or any number of absurd notions.
The problem is that many people, educated or not, believe that blind faith in something WITH NO PROOF is noble. It is not. It is dangerous and dishonest.
@Bill Farty
Where would I even start with you? Well,I guess I would just say, keep you mouth shut, then nobody will know how ridiculous you sound.
January 10th, 2007 at 4:00 am
Okay. Stupid people are dangerous. I agree on at least that much. I’m not saying stupid people are bad people, or that they are somehow less human or worthy or valued or whatever. I’m just saying that when you have a lot of them, it can be dangerous in the long term. Pretty obvious stuff.
What about smart people who believe stupid things? Are they dangerous too? Smart people with stupid beliefs are definitely dangerous in the long-term, because they are going to live their lives based on them, spread them, and unwittingly harm others in the process. Even though they have smart, capable minds, those minds are filled with stupid stuff.
So then, what if there was a a good proven standard you could use to judge whether or not a belief was stupid? Would you use that standard if you knew about it?
I’m serious. There’s a point I am making. It should be kind of obvious. I have a one-track mind, you know.
January 10th, 2007 at 4:03 am
Oh, never mind. gabrielAmerican basically said the same thing I was trying to say. He posted while I was still typing. :/
January 10th, 2007 at 7:02 am
Like fotomat/anonymous said, I hate arguuing semantics but i usually define religion as
A - Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe.
B - A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship.
C - A set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader.
And i’m not the only one.
Also, I find accepting most people of all religions, But I won’t accept them bothering me on the sole ground of their religion.
January 10th, 2007 at 7:03 am
ps,
Vk0 It’s Qu’ran,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quran
for Ur’Quan, look here
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ur-Quan
January 10th, 2007 at 1:18 pm
i dont really believe in an organized religion myself but i find it interesting how upset you people get when some one bases their choices on religion as if it is evil or something.
who cares if religion killed a person. they are going to die sometime anyways.
whocares if someone pray to budha and realized they should go on a killing spree….the people that were killed may have died from a vaccine they were about to recieve the next day to ‘cure’ them from the flu.
and people who say atheism is a lack of belief in religion…well all i am saying is the converse of that…if you dont believe in religion…then you believe in not believing in religion….its easy logic and although trivial, it simply states that you do believe in something…thats all im trying to say…. example A=religion…. ~=not … ~A=atheism
~A cannot exist without A, and therefore dependant on A
do you not agree?
so when you make fun of people for believing in stupid religions…it is hypocritical to make fun of them….just because atheism is not organized doesnt mean it is not a religion. collecting stamps can be a religion to someone if they are very dedicated….
many killers and rapist believe in no god. many killers and rapist believe in god. are they any different?
atheist enjoy calling themselves atheists as if it is some special enlightened club…but there are many atheists that are dumb, poor, criminals, sheep fuckers and what have you.
hmmmmm sign me up!!
i also love making atheist angry, i thrive off it since i am the atheist god. lol
yes!!!! power!!!!
January 10th, 2007 at 1:31 pm
@Bill Farty-
Again, keep your mouth shut, then people won’t know how ridiculous you sound.
January 10th, 2007 at 2:02 pm
“whocares if someone pray to budha and realized they should go on a killing spree….the people that were killed may have died from a vaccine they were about to recieve the next day to ‘cure’ them from the flu.”
Ummm… you’re a psychopath. What you’re saying is killing people is OK for any reason, because we’re all going to die some day anyways. I don’t know about you, but I’d like to live as much as I can, for as long as I can. If you don’t, maybe you should jump off a cliff and spare us the asinine anti-life lessons.
“many killers and rapist believe in no god. many killers and rapist believe in god. are they any different?”
They are not different, but surely we could do without another reason for people to kill each other. If the “in the name of Jesus” killers were collecting stamps instead of praising Jesus they probably wouldn’t be killing people.
“just because atheism is not organized doesnt mean it is not a religion”
Atheism is a religion like bald is a hair color. Of course, this is all semantics. Who cares what you call atheists.
“atheist enjoy calling themselves atheists as if it is some special enlightened club…but there are many atheists that are dumb, poor, criminals, sheep fuckers and what have you.”
Statistics show that atheists ARE less likely to be dumb poor criminals. I would say that being an atheist surrounded by religion says a good deal about your character, but we are not all the same.
January 10th, 2007 at 2:06 pm
Yawn.
January 10th, 2007 at 2:09 pm
Previous “yawn” not directed at gabrielAmerican nor Your Father.
[note to self: refresh page more often.]
January 10th, 2007 at 2:36 pm
I know I’m going back a bit, but I’d like to respectfully criticize Bill’s definition of a religion:
1)people congregating and having similar beliefs
2)people dismissing other people beliefs in favor of their own
3)a group of people containing a few fanatics
Using this definition, RF would largely qualify as a religion. What else would?
a) Democrats, Republicans, just about any other political party,
b) The NRA, NAMBLA, Green Peace, and just about any other political group,
c) Cleveland Browns fans, NY Yankees fans, Manchester United fans, and every professional sports team’s fans,
d) Many Unix and Apple user groups,
e) Just about any large enough group of people who share an opinion.
It seems that Bill’s definition of religion fails to identify what is commonly understood as a ‘religion’. It is far to inclusive and as such is not a suitable definition.
A much better definition is provided by the American Heritage Dictionary:
1. Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe.
2. A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship.
Under this definition, neither ReligiousFreaks nor atheists/agnostics are religions.
Reference:
“religion.” The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition. Houghton Mifflin Company, 2004. 10 Jan. 2007.
January 10th, 2007 at 6:10 pm
im gaining strength at an exponential rate……
January 10th, 2007 at 6:13 pm
gabriel…you keep your mouth shut
then you wont choke on your dad’s penis anymore
oooo….snap!
January 10th, 2007 at 6:16 pm
maybe for atheist the supernatural being is the idea that there is no god…that is the main tenet of atheism…a tenet that is revered among you people….religious freaks.com registered website=organization.
again get over yourselves
again please comment on this as it feeds my comments.
dont ignore me….
stop jerking off your dad gabrielle.
ok im done
January 10th, 2007 at 6:19 pm
why does it matter what reason is used to kill someone…that person is dead.
if jesus told me to do it…or allah…or that chemical imblanace in my head,,,what is the difference???
if you guys are so grounded in reality then this should be easy for you to understand.
ok im done for now
January 10th, 2007 at 6:33 pm
If by “feeding” you’re comments, you mean making you seem even more retarded than you sound, then I believe we are succeeding. What’s next, “I am rubber, you are glue”?
“why does it matter what reason is used to kill someone…that person is dead.
if jesus told me to do it…or allah…or that chemical imblanace in my head,,,what is the difference???”
ummm… not everyone’s dead yet. Can’t we try and keep it that way? It’s not just about those who have died needlessly, it’s about those who have yet to.
“maybe for atheist the supernatural being is the idea that there is no god…that is the main tenet of atheism…a tenet that is revered among you people….religious freaks.com registered website=organization.”
If you want to define a religion as any group, then who am I to say no, but by every accepted definition, you are wrong.
January 10th, 2007 at 6:41 pm
Guys, Bill Farty is obviously a TROLLing. I see some of you already figured that out.
He’s the first real troll I’ve seen on this site, so it doesn’t surprise me that some people fell for it.
http://trollsareannoying.ytmnd.com/
January 10th, 2007 at 9:06 pm
@Arktis-
Bill Farty may be trolling, but his words paint him as a socially awkward ignorant fool. What a sad person he must be.
January 10th, 2007 at 10:11 pm
Wow. I knew I was avoiding this thread for a reason.
January 10th, 2007 at 10:17 pm
That’s kind of the point. To push the limits of absurdity while still striking enough nerves to illicit response, thus making others look like fools.
It’s like fighting a clown. Anyone who engages a clown ends up looking like an even bigger fool.
So… don’t.
January 10th, 2007 at 11:43 pm
first troll of a website…guys really…thank you…i couldnt have done it without you…i mean…gabriel is gay and everything but…its just an honor….
thanks again
arktis….man you are wise. i didnt even know why i was doing this until now.
I declare that arktis is the wisest man in town, and gabriel has a gay dog.
January 11th, 2007 at 1:32 am
WOW,
Actually I thought that Bill has a point, I don’t agree with what he said after, but being an Athiest is a beleif, I don’t know why you fought him for this one.
The other thing, nobody has the right to tell keep your mouth shut, other wise we are going to end in Cheap chat room where people cursing each othe.
I understand that you are guys are well educated, let’s avoid this level of talking.
I think somebody will bash me for saying that:), it’s like habbit.
January 11th, 2007 at 3:50 am
Yes, Mohamed, atheism IS a belief.
The Earth revolves around the sun… that is also a belief.
Grass is often green.
The sky is usually blue.
These are all beliefs.
I understand that English is not your first language, and I try to make generous allowances for that… but there is only so much that one can give.
In these discussions, “belief” does not imply “faith.” Instead, it often means, “Based on all the evidence I have seen, I currently think that X is true.”
If you do not understand the difference between these concepts, then I think we have arrived at one of the core obstacles preventing us from having a meaningful discussion.
It’s time for a new story.
January 11th, 2007 at 4:58 am
And on that note, it’s time for the semi-annual worldwide open-air pornographic festival.
I hope I don’t get arrested AGAIN this year.
*runs outside with pants down around the ankles*
“Weeheee!” :D
January 12th, 2007 at 6:48 am
You sir, are a real man. I salute you!
*pulls down pants and runs around with Arktis, while singing: This is the dawning of the age of Aquarius The age of Aquarius, Aquariiiiiuuuus! Aquaaariiiiiiiiius! *
January 12th, 2007 at 10:01 am
What happened to RF yesterday? There was a Red Hat / Fedora apache page instead of the site.
January 12th, 2007 at 3:09 pm
Here is the caravan story. I am surprised that anybody who claims to be a moslem doesn’t know it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Badr#The_caravan_raids_.28ghazaw.C4.81t.29
And about spereading by force… I guess when you say they “freed” christians from the romans you mean the same as when bush says we “freed” iraq? It sounds to me like both used the sword…
As for your argument that there are still christians, your religion isn’t as forgiving againt religions other than christianity and jewdism. They were allowed to live, but their land was conquered all the same. (not to mention the rule that says people he leave islam - people like me - must be killed!)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Islam
January 12th, 2007 at 3:40 pm
hmmm heres something to do about faith and belief…a few examples if you will of faith and belief
‘based on the power of prayer, i believe in the lord and his healing ability, and his power to cure cancer.’
‘based on the study conducted by scientists, i believe coffee’s anti-oxidant properties can help stave off cancer.’
or maybe this will change your mind
‘based on the good book, i have faith i will find love one day, with the help of the almighty’
‘based on studies conducted by clinical psychologists and animal behaviourists, i have faith the bottle of human pheromones will help me find a mate.’
hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm…..i dunnooooo
January 12th, 2007 at 6:16 pm
I will folow me, to wherever I may go…
Forever, always and now, I will follow myself to death!
(I love me, I love me, I love me, lalalala-lalala, I love me)
Been watching Rock’n'Nun again…
January 12th, 2007 at 9:19 pm
farty, or you could just not believe in anything except what you can prove.
For example, based on a study of the effects of olive oil and hair growth, it is reasonable for me to BEHAVE in such a way that the findings are correct unless new information proves or contradicts the findings. Belief isn’t required, and would be irrational in the absence of proof.
This is why faith based religion is a bunch of crap.
January 12th, 2007 at 9:45 pm
farty,
Trolling or not, yours is a valid argument - a minister friend of mine raised the same point.
The difference between science and religion only shows up when CONFLICTING information or oppinion appears, e.g.
Science
——-
“Actually, latest tests show coffee doesn’t prevent cancer more often than doing nothing at all does”
–gives–
“Oh, heavy. Lets have a look at that. I wonder if it does or doesnt. Is there some way we can prove it, do we need more information”?
Religion
——–
“Actually, latest tests show prayer doesn’t cure cancer any more than doing nothing at all does”
–gives–
“Lets blog about this until I convince you I am right and you are wrong - which is the only possible outcome…”
or
“La La La I’m Not Listening”
or
“BURN IN HELL SINNER!!!!!”
or even
“DIE UNBELIEVER!!!!!!!”
ALL religions are the same: “I Beleive this against any and all evidence”
Science is the exact opposite of all religions: “I will subject anything and everything I believe to verification by evidence”.
I think that is an important thing to get out onto the table when talking about this stuff - what position do we take about Theory vs. Evidence? Which is greater? Plato thought Reason, Epicurus thought our Senses. Both can, and ARE, wrong from time to time - surely a healthy scepticism about what we believe seems prudent???
Mohamed?
January 12th, 2007 at 9:53 pm
P.S. or you could just say (== means equals, != means not equal)
(any) religion == Faith
and
science == Doubt
but
Faith != Doubt
so
Science != Religion
which is why
Faith==bhudism==islam==christianity==gaia==animism==
shinto==aliens==voodoo==tarot==scientology != science
(sorry for double posting!)
January 12th, 2007 at 11:10 pm
I prefer to look at it in a simpler way.
Science: sense data > hypothesis > testing > working model > application
Religion: Conclusion > application
Hmmm…
January 12th, 2007 at 11:11 pm
Those aren’t meant as math symbols, by the way… just arrows.
January 12th, 2007 at 11:17 pm
Nice :)
January 13th, 2007 at 12:50 am
religion has changed over time…after certain things such as evolution have become well accepted….in catholicism for example. to say it is unchanging is simply not true and in fact you could go a step further and possible say that it is more accepting of science than vice versa. but that is neither here nor there.
science is one way to explain the world, religion is another way, music and art are yet another way.
its really up to the individual on how he/she wants to perceive his/her surroundings.
it all relates back to the fact that no one can be truly objective in their perception.
i can take acid my whole life and find that science is just as worthless to me as religion.
January 13th, 2007 at 1:03 am
now after all these comments, i will say this…
i do believe myself that science is the best way to explain the world around me (currently, that may change)
being an engineering/computer science student myself, i believe that rigorous testing and documentation is essential for the propagation of the human race.
however i do believe that at a certain point in our evolution, science and religion will begin to merge into something better.
for example, take neuroscience. what happens when neuro scientists discover exactly how the brain functions. not a big deal? think about it carefully. what would happen to the human race?
what drives us to discover new things is the fact that we want to become more god-like..more powerful…have more control over our surroundings. without the idea of god….why pursue anything? take for instance a pack of wolves…they do what they do…hunt, maybe play sometimes…nothing spectacular….but take a domesticated dog…very close to wolf in biological terms….you will find that over time, they try to mimic human behaviour…or maybe try and become more god like. …more control over their surroundings…by whining for food….learning to go poop in the long grass cuz theyll know they will not get into trouble…they gain a sense of power.
January 13th, 2007 at 2:04 am
I beleive in scince, as 1+1=2, but to tell that Billions chance made the human-being what he is, and human being happened to be man and woman(look how many accidents so far), add to that animals came as an acciednet too(you still counting), and it happenes they are male and female, and the plants came as an accident.
That’s what you are believing in, I don’t even know the number I should say to count this accidents(if somebody knows more 100000000 time the trilion, please let me know).
So you believe in countless number of accidents, and you don’t believe in just one possiblity, that there is a god.
Every body will think that I’m crazy. bla bla. I’m well educated and I have a good experience, and I’m not Muslim, and to let you know I don’t read a lot about Islam and Quran, It’s just when I think about it, it doesn’t make sense for all this accidents to happen to exist.
Please would somebody tell me what the scince said about the seoul. does the scince explained it?
What happen when you die, what makes you die, sometimes people die and they don’t why they died, so they said he died because of his blood pressure went down, that’s the only explanation that the scince could come with, not the fact, it was his time to die.
I listened to you a lot, and it really hurts me to see a lot of educated people like you equal them self with the monkies, and believe in countless number of accidents, and that your proof of human-being existence.
Please can somebody explain, what the power that drive the seed to be a tree or plant in the earth for you to eat, I know you will explain the whole process, but you don’t what the power behind the dead seed to be a plant.
And please don’t forget wikipedia links :)
January 13th, 2007 at 2:15 am
The idea of “god” is synonymous with the very notion of complete control. When you make that all holy and ridiculous, you’ve got religion; people worshiping their own leaders and proclaiming allegiance to them without ever realizing it. God is whoever can trick the foolish.
Anyone who wants that sort of situation is either being stupid by not seeing the forest for the trees or simply desiring the power it can grant. From there, any number of justifications can be made or not made. Who needs to bother with having a conscience when they’re a god among men? There’s no need for one; one only needs to be more clever than the rest.
The whole situation is absurd. So please do spare us the the attempt at softening our hearts to religion. The only proven way to succeed at such a task is if we’re too stupid to see what’s going on, or if those of us who aren’t so blind can be lured by the idea of power.
So which one are you? Blind, or lustful?
January 13th, 2007 at 2:25 am
^(that was directed at bill farty, the ever more cautious troll)
January 13th, 2007 at 2:40 am
“Who needs to bother with having a conscience when they’re a god among men? There’s no need for one; one only needs to be more clever than the rest.”
Ok, so let’s assume that you killed me and no body know, who would bring justice, if you break into my house and nobody knows, would you get away with it?
The idea that God exists protects everybody, If the killer believe in God, he wouldn’t kill, because he knows God will get him, if not in this life, it would be in the judgment day.
Your idea says that there is no justice, and we don’t need one. I know you will say values and on, I believe you have conscince and may more than Muslims, but some other don’t, so for them to believe there is God, it will protect you.
January 13th, 2007 at 3:34 am
Nice going, man. You completely missed the point.
But even then, someone can just say “oh, I’ll kill this guy now, and feel sorry about it later and then ask for forgiveness from god and it will be okay”.
Aside from that, believing in a god only stabilizes an unjust society built on lies. It prevents people from thinking for themselves and finding a REAL healthy form of justice and social equality. In your attempt to excuse this unjust and irrational situation, you’ve destroyed rational thinking and genuine compassion and replaced it with fear and irrationality. By your illustration, instead of someone facing the real consequences and caring for the life and feelings of others, they simply stop at “oh, the invisible man in the sky will torture me endlessly”. This robs someone of the capacity to think clearly.
For fucks’ sake… I am so tired of brainwashed people like you.
January 13th, 2007 at 5:49 am
Evolution naturally seems weird to anyone, this is simply because of the well-known fact that humans have a very hard time realizing an amount of time greater than a few decades.
The first spark of life is quite mysteriously, but it did have a long amount of time to form, so almost no matter how small the chance that a correct mix of molecules formed just the right way, time makes alot of things possible.
And the weird things you consider making the chance of life much shorter is just silly.
“Plants came by complete accident”: no, faster way to spread a larger amount of biomass to a broader area (than singlecelled, self-cloning beings), evolution.
“Animals came by complete accident”: no, same reason as plants, just with a better chance for the single beings to survive bad periodes.
“Man came by complete accident”: no, same reason for animals, except with an intellect so high, that you don’t need to hardcode information about how to find natural resources over many generations.
“The fact that they formed as male and female” is an excellent way to mix different genes, plus an excellent way to make sure the best genes spread faster than inferior ones.
This is probably a language mistake, but it sounded like you thought it was amazingly random that both animals and humans have the male-female way to reproduce.
You try to disprove evolution by assuming it doesn’t exist, and then talk about how improbably everything would be (without evolution).
January 13th, 2007 at 7:14 am
Id also like to point out BEFORE anyone says it that the name ‘Evolution Theory’ does not mean Evolution is in debate over wether it happens. The theory in evolution is HOW it happens, something religious people fail to relise. Also, the idea of a superbeing with endless power in everyway seems more unlikely to me
January 13th, 2007 at 7:27 am
I must have missed something. The topic suddenly shifted to evolution at the end of the last page… with quotes from some other post… THAT DOESN’T EXIST anywhere in the comments for this RF entry.
So uh… yeah. Confusion. So again, did I missing something?
January 13th, 2007 at 11:17 am
I’m not refusing the evolution, evolution happens evey day and I believe in it, but it not expplanation for human-being existence.
Nobody can explain how we came in gender, and how the evolution explain that, and why we came in gender, and not just us, all the animals came in gender.
I studied evolution in Egypt, we don’t bash the theory, it happens but not for explaining the human-being existence.
Every body here assume that biomass happened, and they talk like they saw it by thier own eyes, so why the scince can’t create the same conditions to make it happen again.
Stop dreaming, Evoultion doesn’t explain or doesn’t prove any thing, and if you beleive in it as explanation for it, I don’t where is your education went?
January 13th, 2007 at 12:48 pm
all evolution is….is a way for living things to make themselves better nothing more…it is in no way an answer to how we got here or why we are here.
it could be gods way of making things better without having to actively change anything. very smart planning on its part.
humans would revel in technology that was self healing, self improving. this is what evolution is. how did it come about? that is the more important question. why does gravity exist? these are questions which im sure most of you are interested in but currently science has no way of answering.
therefore there is something else that pushes us to get answers to these questions.
scientists do not say, ‘i am interested in the axioms in which the gravitational force are based on.’ no, they say, ‘why does gravity exists? what makes it so?’ and work from there.
it is a sense of wonder, and also jealousy that makes us find answers. we want to become more powerful, all-knowing beings. if we knew for a fact the E.T. does exists, would you not want to know what they know? or would you just sit back and rely on our limited knowledge of scientific reasoning and testing. no, of course not.
science does not exist just for the sake of finding answers. what pushes us to ask questions, perform experiments and quantify the results using mathematics?
i am not trying to make you believe in god, i am just trying to make you understand that by accepting certain things without question for whatever reason is bad. an open mind is key to gaining knowledge.
what makes Mormons so happy? their blissful ignorance maybe? what makes alot of nerdy kids in high school so sad? maybe its their pure dedication to science, that they have lost interest in human interaction? wouldnt it be nice to be able to pick and choose things from all walks of life, to make yourself better? a person with a chemical inbalance in their head and total acceptance of scientific theory may doom themselves to eternal sadness just because of the fact they know that they cant be helped. is that good?
if a being came out of the sky, killed 2 billion people, and said, ‘i am god, worship me or die.’ what would you do? worship him, knowing that you may still be able to squeeze a few more fun moments out of your life, or choose death and end it all, knowing you will never have to worship him…unless he was a total shiester and a lying coot.
January 13th, 2007 at 12:59 pm
Maybe Egypt doesn’t enforce the same set of educational standards that North America does. I mean hell, their government is still torturing prisoners and who knows what the fuck else. http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/news/archives/2007/01/12/youtube_exposes_torture_in_egypt.html
You know why “the West” is so popular? Why “millions” of people from your part of the world move their “families” miles away? Because our quality of life kicks ass over here, and that is only made possible from Religion-Free government. All the bad shit you hear about the US is all CONSERVATIVE RELIGIOUS ASSHOLES trying to fuck up our standards and freedoms.
Evolution and Science provides the right answers, to much of what we know and accept today. It therefore is the ONLY KNOWN process for continuing to provide the STANDARD for explanation, as we move forward as a species. Math is the single greatest human achievement in the history of our existence. It will CONTINUE to answer ALL of the philosophical questions that fuel religion, and cause unrest in the people. (Such as why are we here, and what is our purpose)
The West is the most popular place in the WORLD right now; and that’s all thanks to our separation of religion from government.
By the way, I have a new website in the making called http://faithsucks.com ; should be a cool daily links feed, with anti-religious, sex-filled awesomeness. (I had to buy hosting from a pr0n provider to be able to speak freely on the Internet; stupid Conservative North American laws.)
January 13th, 2007 at 1:25 pm
Shaze what