It’s no secret that the United States was a very racist country towards blacks. Back in the first half of the 20th century, it was common (at least in the South) to have segregated bathrooms and water fountains for blacks and whites. Blacks were rightfully upset over the division and it took a national civil rights movement to correct these discriminatory acts. But that was then and this is now.
Fast-forward to today and very thought of segregated washrooms is preposterous, let alone desired. That is of course unless you attend La Trobe University in Melbourne Australia. Muslim students in La Trobe have been granted exclusive Muslim-only washrooms that require a secret pass code to access. But why is this necessary?
The segregated washrooms were seen as a benefit to both the Muslim and non-Muslim students. Confused yet? Muslim students are required to pray several times a day. Now as part of the ritual, Muslims are apparently required to wash their feet. In the past, Muslim students would literally stick their feet in the sink to get a good scrubbing, much to the dismay of non-Muslim students.
Both school officials and Muslim leaders approved of the bathrooms, but many people find the separate facilities divisive. Australian Family Council spokesman Bill Muehlenberg said concerns over the new facilities are valid:
“Do we have a Christian washroom or an atheist washroom? The whole thing is madness.”
Now this is a very interesting matter in my opinion. On one hand we have the whole Muslim integration issue, but on the other we have the special needs of a people being catered to. This is nothing new. Disabled people have had their own special ramps and entrances for years. Is this the same?
Mohamed, if you’re reading this, please enlighten us on the whole washing of the feet ritual. Do you wash your feet at work prior to your daily prayers? Do you even perform your daily prayers? I also invite our new hacker guests to participate in this discussion. That is of course if you can find the time. I know you’ve been busy attacking my server the last several days ;)
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“Disabled people have had their own special ramps and entraces for years. Is this the same?”
There is a difference between needing something and wanting something: Someone who can only move by wheelchair needs those ramps, because otherwise they are not physically able to go where they need to go. However, there is no physical need to do those rituals for prayer.
The proper comparison for both – not only people following such a strict prayer regimen but also those who are disgusted at others washing their feed there (I for one don’t use my feet for cleaning my ass after I took a dump – your hands are usually much more dirty unless you walk barefoot and stepped into some dog poop or chewing gum) – are people with OCD: They feel they need to do something and are neurologically unable to behave differently, even if they were to know that it is stupid behaviour.
“Disabled people have had their own special ramps and entrances for years. Is this the same?”
No, while I do consider religious beliefs to be a type of disability, it is a self-inflicted disability. The physically disabled, in contrast, did not choose to be disabled.
That being said, I have no problem with separate bathrooms that have feet-washing facilities. What I do object to is the exclusive, Muslim-only nature of the bathroom. In my view, you have some students who will wash their feet by any means possible (why not stick them, one-at-a-time, in a toilet with soap and flush?), and others who don’t want them using sinks. Solution? Simple: a new washroom with facilities so that any student who wishes to wash his/her feet can do so easily.
This solution would achieved the goal and would not cause controversy since no one is being excluded from either type of facilities.
These people will keep pushing and pushing until they get sharia law. It may take a generation or two but if you give them an inch they will take a mile.
Hello wolf,
I never put much stock in slippery-slope arguments. There are far too many instances where such warnings never came to fruition. They are good tool for alarmists and that is about all. Even that bastion of internet atheism, infidels.org do not consider this type of argument valid. A more complete critique of slippery-slope argument can be found here.
Also, in most cases, an opposite slippery-slope argument could be made. In this case it would go something like this:
If we allow the government to ban facilities that help us practice our religion, they will keep on pushing and pushing on our practices until Islam is completely outlawed.
This is also a deeply flawed argument.
It is just plain stupid. They could just as easily added a special “foot washing” sink to the existing bathroom. Would have been cheaper and much less divisive. One that is low to the ground, sort of like one of those stand up shower stalls with a low placed faucet. Can these people not think?
Solution #2 ban the practice of putting your feet in a sink obviously designed and built for hands. You dipshits. You want to wash your smelly feet then bring a bottle of water with you and use that.
sidfaiwu said:
“No, while I do consider religious beliefs to be a type of disability, it is a self-inflicted disability. The physically disabled, in contrast, did not choose to be disabled.”
People don’t choose the religion that is hammered into them as children and teenagers any more than they choose their parents. This mistreatment lasts a lifetime. Some people have the strength of will and personality to shake it off; most don’t. Even if I *know* it’s stupid, I keep putting up Christmas lights every year — I like them, and it doesn’t feel right if I don’t. Most people can’t choose a religion the same way you choose clothes.
I think religious people are the victims of mind worms. Blaming them for it just victimizes them more.
Nice to see they’re washing their feet. Now, if we could just get them to put on some deoderant.
I think most religious people would disagree with you, NeReligionIsPeace, but you have a point. Allow me to rephrase.
Religious belief could be a choice, physical disability can not. The religious have the opportunity to think about their beliefs and change their minds (indeed some of us did just that). On the other hand, someone without any legs cannot ‘change their minds’ about not having legs, no matter how open-minded they are. Thus there still is a major difference.
I am all in favor of segregating people infected with contagious religious mind worms away from the rest of the population. Don’t stop at toilets. The most contagious strain resulting in severe behavioral disorders nowadays is Islam, I think.
We don’t need more understanding and communication with these people, we need less exposure and more containment, with the establishment of safe zones and recovery clinics.
Man, whatever happened to suffering for your faith?
“Disabled people have had their own special ramps and entrances for years. Is this the same?”
No, it’s obviously not the same, for the reasons mentioned previously.
Special facilities — exclusive ones, no less — for persons with strict religious beliefs should not be provided.
However, as an easy alternative, the university could offer public showers. This would provide all students the option of cleaning themselves up — be it because they just rode their bike to campus, or because they’re about to attend prayers — the reason is irrelevant, and everyone can partake equally, as needed.
sidfaiwu,
You’re correct. It *could* be a choice, but a very difficult one, as most people have no “mind legs”.
I think religions are communicable mental diseases. Getting rid of all these mind worms is quite difficult and almost, well, “miraculous” ;). Atheists are the few lucky ones. Congratulations to those who made it.
My question is, who funded this? If the funds were from private Muslim organizations then let them segregate. If it was paid for with public funds then I think the taxpayers supporting the school should decide whether they want their money paying for an elitist group locking out all non-Muslim students with their own money. If that is the case I think the perfectly reasonable solution would be the one suggested here by sidfaiwu and agreed with by others of placing a sink in restrooms for the use of any student wishing to wash their feet. Simple solution that avoids the divide. Washing one’s feet is not an insane idea, even if the reason you are doing it is a mythological belief.
You can’t get hit by a car and wake up Muslim. There is a very, very large difference between religious beliefs and disabilities. You can be born disabled or be suddenly disabled by an accident, but with any religion it takes years of indoctrination and possibly subtle coercion to be convinced to join. I think fotomatt has the right idea. If they just catered to one religious group, the facilities should not be there, but if they can be used by everyone, they are certainly useful.
Great discussion thus far, but I’d really wish a Muslim would chime in on this :( Where’s a Muslim when you need one!
gasmonso
It seems to me the best solution is to just modify the current bathrooms if anything is going to be done. Michael was right; creating brand new bathrooms for a foot wash is excessive. Also, I tend to agree with “seperate can never be equal” when it comes to this kind of thing. It doesn’t matter if the idea is total equality; practice tends to change things. One bathroom might start to look cleaner then the other for whatever reason. People will complain, saying no one is cleaning bathroom X as well because of who they are. Or people will walk by the second bathrooms and say, “Oh, I see. So they have to have their own bathrooms. Are we too dirty for them?” There are easier ways to solve this problem.
Sure, we COULD cater to every special need in our country; or, we could force them all to adapt.
In Canada, we have thousands of immigrants come to our country every year. And every year, new specialty schools get built that cater to the language needs of a community/country. Why we pay taxes to teach them in their own Language, instead of forcing them all to learn English is beyond me.
Normally with a Private institution, I’d say fuck it; I mean, they can offer whatever “benefits” they want to attract whomever. But this is a publicaly funded school, which means they used government coin, plus the coin of the student majority in making this decision.
Then again, in my humble opinion, they are pretty fucked in the head; maybe it’s better we accommodate the nut jobs so they don’t blow us up. (Or take down our precious web servers)
Hi sidfaiwu,
I’m not using the slippery slope as my sole argument…in fact I wasn’t really making an argument at all, I was just stating my general opinion on islamists. However, I agree the slippery slop is not very strong in the context of Australia. But look at other countries that are hanging in the balance…Turkey is one that I know a fair amount about. Also, the opposite of the slippery argument is much less likely the way I see it, as religion motivates people far greater than bureaucracy.
“mind worms” – what a lovely metaphor, I think I’m going to keep that one. That’s kind of describes what they feel like, and it makes for a neat seque to ringworm for a foot-washing thread :)
And as for making the school Foot Wash Room religiously segregated – why stop at Moslem, sureley you can’t expect Sunni to wash with those filthy Shia or Kurds – or the Wahabi to wash with those other false Sunni – I count at least 4 extra washrooms needed if we go down that track.
Sure, let people wash their feet – but it’s got to be public access, as everyone said.
Hmmm… Mind Worm… I think that works better for a bumper sticker than “Mind Virus” or “God Delusion”
WOW,
That’s intersting, you want me to add something you would like guys, we also wash our members after taking a biss, we also have to wash our butts with water after taking a dump.
Muslim has to be clean when he goes to pray, if you want to be dirty and stinky and you smell like beer, it’s your choice.
At least we wash our stinky feet, not keeping it stinky, we don’t have sex and sleep without washing, like animals.
And after we make love to our wives, we have certain way to wash, we are the cleanset nation on the whole world.
If you want to know how clean Muslims are, I can tell you, so please stop talking like it’s something bad, it’s advantage for the Muslim on any other nation.
I start to smell you guys:)))))))))))
However, as an easy alternative, the university could offer public showers.
I know at least at the University of Western Australia that many of these showers are dotted about the campus.
While I see the need and would agree for providing a special sink for foot-washing, I don’t think you need to have a completely separate room for it. No matter how much the people in charge would deny it this situation will inevitably lead to jealousy and formation of a them/us mindset.
@mohamed
BS. i lived around muslims my whole life, ‘cleanest’ would not be the first thing that comes to mind. oh wait, they must not be _true_ muslims, right?
A better analogy than disabled access would be the appearance of other specialist spaces that we often see at universities. (Well, here in Australia we do, anyway.)
For example, here (which is close to La Trobe) we have a women-only room and a queer-only room. A Muslim-only washroom doesn’t seem so ridiculous when you think about it.
The immediate first thing that popped into my head, when I read those Pseudo’s words, were, “Is there a midgets-only bathroom? How tall is the door?”
And on reflection I was able to put a better thought to that: how many bathrooms do you need? Does every group need it’s own space? This could seriously be taken too far.
However, it should be noted that we do have different bathrooms for men and women in America. I think the reasons for that can be stated more strongly than the reasons for, say, a Muslims-only bathroom. Although, when you really think about it, given that the toilets are all hidden from view for obvious reasons, couldn’t they just make the toilets even more private (for whiny people) and then just have a bathroom for everyone, both sexes included? Perhaps you could have separate dressing sections or something if it were needed. That way one room could cover everyone.
UWA students argued for unisex toilets but the administration got their panties in a twist over it…
But unisex toilets would be cool…
The problem with unisex bathrooms is that men are often nastier than women. When I worked late on campus I would use the women’s restroom (I was the only person in the building) because it didn’t have that lingering urine odor the men’s bathroom did.
Doesn’t it seem a bit unfair that the muslims can use either bathroom, but non-muslims are limited to just the one?
Islam is such a manipulative religion, they have tons of these weird health-tips, but they are hidden away and disguised as some form of spirituality.
Ofcourse, eating pigs in ancient times was a bad idea, because pigs ran around eating human corpses, same as keeping your feet clean as that is the most likely place to get cuts if you jump around in crappy sandels/other ancient foot-wear.
I’ve always wondered if muslims don’t see these simple facts, or if they gladly embrace being manipulated.
I am left-hand dominant (I’m ambidextrous, but I prefer to do most things with my left hand).
I can’t change the fact that I do most things with my left hand, I just do. However, living in a very right-handed world, I’ve learned to adapt to pretty much everything being designed for right-handed people.
At home, I have a pair of left-handed scissors (well, used to, I lost them a while ago), but out in the rest of the world, I use right-handed scissors because they’re usually the only thing available. I’ve learned how to write with those gel-ink pens so that I don’t smear my writing everywhere and dye my hand as it drags over the writing – you get the idea.
In an environment I can control, I have more freedom to set things up in a way that works better for me. But outside of that, I have to make do with what works for 90% of the people on this planet. I don’t have a problem with that on any level, I don’t complain about it, it’s just a simple fact of life.
Islam needs to learn the word “compromise.” (I am also inclined to recommend the words “sanity” and “respect” – but that’s another matter).
Aside from the sheer lunacy of this, I was curious as to why there was a special password needed to access the Muslim-only washroom? There’s no password for a handicapped washroom (at least not that I’ve seen). I’m assuming that the Muslim students are worried about the unclean infidels tainting their holy facilities or something, but that’s just ludicrous. If they want to kowtow to the Muslim students then fine, install the foot washing stations in the normal washrooms, but don’t give them special treatment for their religious lunacy.
kamuri has some great points.if us lefties can compromise, why can’t the religious people? I to wonder about the passcode, why can’t normal people use the bathroom if they have no problem with feet in their sinks.
On campus here, every muslim just prays before/after college, except for the real fanatical ones, they jsut go home. But who cares about a few classes for the sake of your religion.
also, mohamed, we have these things called showers, which you can stand under and you get clean. All of it.
:P
The point with lefties may be one of the best arguments I’ve heard in a long time. I think most of us have things like that that we have to deal with. I have eczema. I also happen to live in a very arid (not because of heat, but cold, since the moisture in the air freezes all winter) environment, which does nothing to help the eczema. I could move somewhere less arid, but I choose not to. So what do I do? I live with it. It could be worse.
Perhaps lefties across the world should try to get a movement started, hey? We can see just how far some people are willing to push it. “We will not rest until every classroom has equal numbers of left and right-handed scissors! Lefties of the world UNITE!”
I’m a lefty so count me in! I’ve been discriminated against all my life and I’m not gonna take it anymore damnit!!!
Hehehe, this reminds me of the Simpsons episode where Flanders opened up a left-handed store called the Leftorium.
gasmonso
Three lefties?!? …Freaks.
I am from the clan of freaks who can use both hands equally. Though my right hand had more practice then left one, in this world of rightists. So I guess I will join you for solidarity, comrades.
I’m getting the distinct urge to have another poll. I’d like to know if left-handedness is more common amongst free thinkers like ourselves?
gasmonso
If you are left-handed, please raise your right arm…
I’m right handed but left eye dominant, which means that it is basically impossible for me to shoot a bow straight. But unless I find myself forced to use one to fight the Barbarian Hordes, I think I’ll be okay…
I’m a lefty!!
Another lefty here. What does that bring us to?
I don’t think it makes us *free* thinkers per se, just that it makes us *thinkers* – Just witness how many of us here have recovered from bad mind-worm infestations ourselves. Athiests have a lot more in common with religious freaks than with jocks, junkies, or entreprenuers – we actually care about ideas and principles, rather than just scoring. Not that this is necessarily a good thing :-/
Oh, and the “arty-right-brain” hypothesis we keep seeing in the press is not supported by the evidence – my fave link on the subject:
http://www.columbia.edu/cu/psychology/tor/Papers/Wager_2003_emotions_neuro_meta.pdf
P.S. left handed and right eye dominant. Good with rifle and bow, and other fencers had a hell of a time with attacks coming from their right for a change – so good with a sword too.
But sans barbarian hordes and with no interest in middle-eastern tourism, that’s worth squat :)
P.P.S. Your archery instructor was crap – the first thing mine did was give all the left-eyes a left-handed bow regardless of handedness, and they did just fine.
I had a lot of fun tormenting right-handed fencers too. I also figure that if I ever have to storm a castle, those damn spiral staircases won’t stop me.
Mohamed, if you’re reading this, please enlighten us on the whole washing of the feet ritual. Do you wash your feet at work prior to your daily prayers? Do you even perform your daily prayers?
Just in case someone is interested. I’m Muslim and pray five times a day. According to Islam, the ablutions performed before prayer places one in a state of “ritual purity” (for want of a better term). There are some things that take a person out of this state. If none of these things are done, then it’s not necessary to renew the ablutions. One can in theory perform them once in the morning and go through the whole day (praying 5 times etc.) without renewing them.
At work, I personally don’t have a problem since I have a mosque right outside my office and I pop there for my prayers (3 of them fall during work hours). I was in an office which was not very close to a mosque. Those days, I used to perform part of ablutions (except washing the feet) at the sink and then go to the shower rooms just to wash my feet.
As for the initiative by the University, I think it’s dumb. A Muslim *only* bathroom is a waste of resources and divisive. If the Muslims really wanted it, they could have simply asked for a tap and a drain somewhere in the corner of the bathroom or something like that. It doesn’t take much imagination to figure out a way to wash one’s feet without offending other people.
I also figure that if I ever have to storm a castle, those damn spiral staircases won’t stop me.
Me too!
…
WTF? Left-handed thinking??
You all realise what this means don’t you… no religious freak is *ever* going to take us seriously now – it’s obvious we’ve all got the mark of Satan: left-handedness!!!
If you are right Gasmonso that leftyness predisposes one to free thought, no wonder it was villified and suppressed by organised christianity.
Perhaps you should just purge this thread :-/
I was referring to the fact that spiral stairs in castles were built around an ascending clockwise twist so that attackers wielding a sword in the right hand would be ineffective on the way up, having to expose most of their body in order to actually use their sword. Being left-handed would give you a distinct advantage against the defending forces coming down the stairs.
It’s esoteric, I know…
That being said, I agree Recovered Catholic’s last post. There’s no chance now.
hmmm, I’m seeing some very clear patterns. Lefthandedness, urge to fight with swords/bows, atheism.
Your instructor was a non-man, because I know for a fact that REAL men use these. so it doesn’t matter which hand you use.
@Alcari: You’re proving the point I think. But shouldn’t a longbow be a “self” bow of yew heartwood/sapwood?
@Kamui: Sorry, I should have said the long version – that the stairwell advantage is something that has often crossed my mind while walking upstairs. The “Me too” was surprise that I would run into another such esoteric day-dreamer.. left handed.. on an athiest website… and that is starting to make me believe in such a thing as “left handed thinking”.
@sidfaiwu: We da freaks? Heh heh, and here you were thinking that as an Athiest there was nothing on this site that could further dis-illusion you. Wait until you realise the truth about your right-handedness – it’s gonna rock your world AND set your left hand free. Welcome to the Matrix my friend :)
offtopicness approaching:
@recovered catholic
Depends on where you live. no really, british longbows (the ‘real’ longbow) is made out of yew (just yew, no composite), as there is a lot of yew in the UK. When you don’t have a lot of yew, well you need something else.
hickory as it is indiginous to the US and southern China was used by native americans. japanese archers used bamboo bows (though it’s really called a yumi, it’s basically the same)
Lemonwood (African), and Purpleheart, native to south america, aren’t likely to be used, as those areas of the world aren’t known for their archery.
What was this thread about again?? :P
Hello recovered catholic (congratulations on the successful recovery!),
Actually, I am one of the few non atheists that regularly contribute to this site. I am a type of Deist. I believe in a omnific “God”, though I know almost none of Its other attributes. What places me in solidarity with atheists is that rationality, logic, and skepticism form the foundations of thoughts and beliefs.
Perhaps if I were left-handed, I’d be a full atheist ;)
Hi ‘N’, thanks for stepping in and sharing your story. I think you’re the 2nd contributing Muslim on here and I hope more show up :) Thank you!
@Alcari:
Offtopicness is in full effect :) I must admit that this is a rather interesting discussion though. Where else can you have a discussion on longbows and feet washing :)
gasmonso
This whole left-handed thing is seriously starting to make me wonder…I mean, just how many of us are left-handed? Is it a coincidence, or is something greater at work…
Also, as far as bows go, when I mentioned using a bow, I’ve only used one once or twice. Never really practiced or anything. Although, if I ever decide to, now I know what to do. :)