Ah now this is a story that has DANGER written all over it. I can run with this story in a dozen different directions, most of which will get me hate mail :) But we are professional amateurs here so let us begin.
Ok, what do you call a person with no arms and no legs who is shaving? Nick. Well to be exact, his name is Nick Vujicic and he was born without arms and legs. Before you fire off the hate mails, you should really read the entire story. You’ll see what I mean. Now, while that would devastate the average human, it has only fueled Vujicic to better himself and countless others.
Confused yet? Allow me to explain. Nick Vujicic is a man of many trades. He is a motivational speaker, real estate investor, stock market investor and author. But most importantly, Nick is an evangelist who travels the world spreading the word of God. Now one would think that Nick would be upset with God, since he forgot to give him arms and legs. But Nick is a “the glass is half full” kind of guy. He often tells people “I stand before you today as a miracle of God.”
Now think about that for a minute. Is he really a miracle of God or just some guy that was dealt poor genes? Now whenever I see someone like this preaching the word of God, one explanation comes to mind. I think that people like Nick need to prove to others and themselves, that they are just as capable and in control of their life. The want to believe that there is a reason for their condition and they weren’t just screwed over by the man upstairs.
They say God works in mysterious way. But no matter how you slice it, Nick Vujicic is one fascinating person. He has accomplished more than many people under circumstances that would cripple most. Whether or not God has anything to do with it, you decide.
Thanks to Headline Junky once again for the story!
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February 6th, 2007 at 2:31 am
All I want to do
is go up to this guy
and give him a hand.
February 6th, 2007 at 3:28 am
To say that God is the cause of your great life is to cheapen and disregard the hard work of yourself and others.
February 6th, 2007 at 3:56 am
$10 says his parents made him go to sleep listening to the Book of Job on tape every
night.
While I have respect for what he has accomplished in terms of his life, ultimately,
he is a living example of what religion prays for. His parents, already tainted by
Christianity, presumably sought purpose in having such a disabled child born to
them. Being Christian, they turned to their Church, who presumably reassured them
all that this is part of God’s plan, and as such must serve a purpose. Probably this
pushed them to make Nick feel that he was, in some way, chosen or purposed by God.
Given his extreme uniqueness, I’d say it wouldn’t have been a far leap for some god
-fearingly-brain-dead (and tragically desperate) Christians to make.
Now, if you’re a young and impressionable child (and the only coping mechanism your
parents have with disability is the belief that the angry scary old man in the sky
made you this way for a very specific reason) it stands to reason that “religious
fervour” may not even begin to describe what you’ve been indoctrinated with from day
one.
I think Nick may very well be the living result of that type of brain washing.
What saddens me the most is that his energy and his evidence of the sheer tenacity
of life is devoted to such an unpleasant and odious institution.
I think Nick has the power to draw people to religion like moths to a flame, and
frankly, that scares me.
Seeing the effects people like this have remind me of “The Second Coming” by William
Butler Yates:
“Turning and turning in the widening gyre
The falcon cannot hear the falconer…”
February 6th, 2007 at 8:19 am
I do have to wonder how he would have ended up if he didn’t get involved in religion. I mean, if he didn’t think God, uh, “gave him a gift,” then where would he be? It seems to me that some people were just meant to be that kind of speaker, for better or for worse.
Oh, and while we’re on the topic, “I stand before you today as a miracle of God.” I don’t think that’s technically true, is it? I mean, doesn’t standing require, um, you know…legs or feet?
February 6th, 2007 at 8:21 am
My mistake, he has a left foot. Ish. I suppose that…helps. Um.
February 6th, 2007 at 9:42 am
What I was going to say has already been said by two people, but I guess I will just echo it. It is sad that he is so brainwashed by christianity that he can’t see that HE accomplished all those things not some invisible man. But, as was already stated, if he wasn’t told over and over as a child that god made him special would he have been able to muster the mental power to overcome this thing he was cursed with?
February 6th, 2007 at 10:17 am
All I can say is LIAR.
From the article: “A little boy comes up to me one day and goes, ‘What happened?,’ so I said, ‘Cigarettes.’ â€
Nice. Great way to be a Christian. Lie to the children. Yep.
And then BOAST about it.
Wow, I want to be a christian. What a good example this guy is setting.
Snurp: You do not need legs to stand in that sense. You need to be present and willing to be in the spotlight(not that a spotlight is required), or rather be willing to be observed. Don’t be pedantic about stand. or is is podantic?
February 6th, 2007 at 10:48 am
I am pretty sure the comment made about standing was tongue in cheek.
February 6th, 2007 at 11:19 am
“God has a purpose for you to love. To love people. There are people in hospitals who want visits. There are hungry people waiting to be fed. Find a means for that to love them.”
Yeah this guy is pure evil and it really sounds like his parents did him a disservice by telling him that he’s special and that God has a plan for him. They should be put in prison.
February 6th, 2007 at 11:44 am
“Don’t be pedantic about stand. or is is podantic?”
That was brilliant. Almost spit tea on my monitor.
February 6th, 2007 at 11:50 am
I don’t believe anyone said the man was evil, that is just blindly lashing out on your part. Don’t stoop to that level Scott. I feel sorry for the guy on multiple levels but I think the thing I sorriest about is that he had to believe god made him this way for a reason to deal with it. I guess it’s not a problem, whatever allows the man to deal with the fate pure chance (or his parents drug use, etc, as a possibility) dealt him. I don’t know how I would have dealt with it, I highly doubt I would have accomplished nearly as much as he did.
February 6th, 2007 at 12:30 pm
‘Intelligent’ design, my foot! Isn’t this man a living counter example to intelligent design?
Okay, I can see an argument being made that this man’s deformation lead to him spreading God’s word which could be construed as an intelligent plan. But what about the countless others who do not respond by spreading their religion and instead spent their life in suffering and despair? I’m sure they are more numerous than those like the gentleman featured in the article.
One final note. If this person’s parents and/or culture had been Muslim, he would be crediting Allah. If he were raised a Hindu, he’d be crediting… which ever Hindu god is responsible for overcoming handicaps. I’m sure the is one. This demonstrates that the credit truly belongs with him for overcoming since the deity he credits is a function of his culture.
February 6th, 2007 at 12:37 pm
Didn’t god make us in his image? Who would have thought god has no legs or arms? How’d they get jesus to stay up on the cross?
February 6th, 2007 at 2:23 pm
jew_boy: Make that two monitors you almost destroyed with the pedantic/podantic. Hillarious.
Other than that, everyone has already voiced everything I would have said so that really doesn’t leave me a leg to stand on…or Nick for that matter. At least Nick is used to it…
February 6th, 2007 at 2:28 pm
sidfaiwu makes me recall Xenophanes:
“Yes, and if oxen and horses or lions had hands, and could paint with their hands, and produce works of art as men do, horses would paint the forms of the gods like horses…” and so on.
It does seem to me that God is a way to try and divert attention for him from how much I imagine it sucks to not have arms or legs, but I return to the point I made before (the serious one, not the thing about standing): what if he didn’t believe in God? Would he just be miserable? It seems like too many people can’t try to make the best of a bad situation unless they’re convinced God (or something else) is out there looking after them. What happened to the good old days when you just sucked it up? Or am I just being delusional again?
February 6th, 2007 at 2:30 pm
I wanna go to one of the sermons that dude does and walk up to him and push him over and yell THE HOLY SPIRIT HAS COME OVER YOU!!!111 with a southern accent. Then look down and in a low voice say “sorry about your head dude” in a regular accent. Then goose-step out of the room with a feather duster sticking out of my ass.
February 6th, 2007 at 3:00 pm
Frosty: Bad image…the feather duster…ewwww….
Snurp: That is a good question. One would assume that considering his glass half full demeanor he would find some comfortable delusion to explain his defective genes and go on to be a motivational speaker or some other optimistic cheerleader type.
I, of course, would still have the urge to walk up to him and remind him that happy people die every day in horrible, tragic ways and then tip his ass over. Hopefully he would try to pull a Black Knight from Monty Python and threaten to gnaw my leg off.
February 6th, 2007 at 4:09 pm
I was largely being sarcastic, responding to JB and the notion that there is something wrong with him being “brainwashed”. I don’t feel sorry for him in the least adn I don’t think he’d want you to feel sorry for him in any way Michael. We’re all born with our own problems and we’ll carry them with us throughout our lives. No doubt we’ll pick up some along the way. What you’re doing Michael is terribly condescending. Don’t stoop to that level.
I hear his message loud and clear and it is, “Don’t let anything stand in the way (heh) of going out and helping folks.”
Sid, I’m guessing that you’re familiar enough with the concept of The Fall and the affect that Christians believe that it had on the world to know that we don’t believe God “designed” man to have no legs and oen two toed foot. Odds are pretty good that if he were born in one of those other two religions he’d be labeled as being cursed. Of course that would probably also be true if he were born into certain Christian cultures. I guess all that can be said for sure there is that he should be glad he wasn’t and glad that however his parents raised him he’s a productive member of society and is encouraging others to do the same.
February 6th, 2007 at 4:59 pm
Hello Scott,
I am familiar with The Fall. I believe we had a great conversation on the subject over on the forum. As you know, I find The Fall incompatible with the Christian concept of God. This story just gave me a new opportunity to express this thought.
I seriously doubt that Christianity is the only religion that has sects that supports and encourages the physically disabled. In fact, many polytheistic religions had gods which were deformed, including the Greco-Roman, Egyption, and Hindu pantheons.
here’s a story about Hindu religious leaders supporting an inspirational young man who is deformed from polio.
February 6th, 2007 at 6:12 pm
Scott: Yes, I guess it is condescending. Unfortunately, that is completely unavoidable since I do firmly feel that belief in god is nothing but self delusion. I can’t help but feel sorry for him, since I am viewing this from MY perspective. I wouldn’t have the delusion of god to help me with it. I can not even imagine a scenario in which I were able to accept the myth of god. I was raised by a christian mom that REALLY did believe, and made me go to southern baptist church as a kid. I was surrounded by christianity during my most impressionable youth. Yet, I reject the existance of god. I saw right through the hype. I imagine I would always see through it, no matter the circumstances. So in his situation, I can only imagine that I would not have the crutch of god to lean on.
February 7th, 2007 at 4:57 pm
Good insights, sid into other religious beliefs and Michael into your character.
February 7th, 2007 at 9:59 pm
I have to apoplogize for that crack at you M. It’s been a hard day. What you say sounds quite a bit like what I hear from some Christians. “I know what I know and I’m glad that I know it.”
February 20th, 2007 at 8:51 pm
Well, I think you all should hear him speak. You make it seem like God is the crutch this man needs to survive, but God is his reason for being. Even aside from his disability, hear him speak, hear him tell a crowd of people he loves them. And have you really seen people be so at peace with their circumstances. What circumstances are in your life? What do you grapple with? The sad part in this is you people who poke fun…but you know what, I really doubt Nick would care, He is an awesome man of God, no matter what any of you say. You try living this life without God, see how far you get.
March 27th, 2007 at 4:54 pm
it sound like snurp is the one without any legs to stand on or he might have more than sceptisizium to offer!! Lean on your self and be a “happy” sounding as him????? no thanx I’ll take God,Jesus and the Holy Spirit over his sad sounding life!
What about faith scares you all so much? Knowing that you are so empty only makes you sad not the man filled with words of love and hope. How has your words on Nick touched anyone in a positve way? Teach a child to moch a strong man with purpose is NOT being your own good god.
April 1st, 2007 at 5:13 pm
You people who bash Nick are second grade humans. I’ve known him all my life and I can tell you he is a wonderful person with a huge heart.
You all sit there and compete with each other who can write more trash about him and his beliefs without recognising that your lives are pathetic and empty.
You all seriously need to grow up and get a life.
idiots.
April 7th, 2007 at 2:00 am
It’s one thing to talk smart out of our logical reasoning and another thing to actually share from an experience, like Nick Vujicic himself. Jesus states this so clearly, “The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do now know where it comes from and where it is going ; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit.” “Truly, truly, I say to you, we speak of what we know and testify of what we have seen, and you do not accept our testimony.”
It takes a Nick Vujicic to, despite his physical defects, still thank God for the way he is and to continue to be an inspiration to thousands out there with conditions similar to his besides many others who might be going through the problems and pressures of life.
April 8th, 2007 at 10:34 am
I can only think of how much better his life would be if he were born and raised with no religion.
April 8th, 2007 at 10:38 am
NOT!
April 12th, 2007 at 11:14 pm
For a bunch of athiests, you people sure seem do know a lot about God, and the people who believe in Him.
April 12th, 2007 at 11:57 pm
Noel, as the saying goes: Know thy enemy!
April 22nd, 2007 at 2:07 am
I have met him and he is simply amazing and inspirational.
April 26th, 2007 at 9:49 am
Wow, I came on this website because I was inspired by this man’s story and wanted to learn more. I’m shocked to see all the ignorant comments from people. Your lives must really suck to even think a negative thing about this person. Anyone, regardless of their beliefs, who wants to guide and inspire people in a positive way is a hero to me. Maybe if more people did believe and honor God and the fact that there will be consequences for your actions, this country wouldn’t be in the devastating state that it is in today. Maybe if you had to walk in Nick’s shoes for a day (or even 10 minutes), you wouldn’t be such JERKS!
April 26th, 2007 at 10:21 am
Hello pam,
“I’m shocked to see all the ignorant comments from people. Your lives must really suck to even think a negative thing about this person.”
Could you be a tad more specific in your criticism? Which comments are ignorant? What makes them ignorant? When I reread some of the comments just now, I found that just about the only negative thing written about Mr. Vujicic had to do with his belief in religion or the religion itself.
Are you suggesting that Mr. Vujicic’s thoughts and beliefs are not worthy of critical examination because of his disabilities? If I were in his shoes I’m sure I’d take more offense from people such as yourself who devalue my thoughts by attempting to shield them from criticism. His beliefs are just as worthy of examination as any capable-bodied individual.
“Maybe if more people did believe and honor God and the fact that there will be consequences for your actions, this country wouldn’t be in the devastating state that it is in today.”
Again, can you be a bit more specific? Which God? The Christian God? Yahweh? Zues? Venus? Krishna? Shiva? Allah? The Flying Spaghetti Monster? Also, which country? This blog is frequented by an international audience. Since the country you are referring to is in a ‘devastating state’ (I think you mean ‘devastated state’), it must be a country racked with poverty and conflict like Sudan. If you were referring to an industrialized nation you have a very warped view of what devastation is.
April 26th, 2007 at 4:50 pm
Hi all.well i agree with all of you but i agree with pam too,i think if i was in Nicks shoes i would hate God for my disabilities,i dont agree that God made him that way,he was born that way because of imperfection!! But God has promised to remove all sickcness tears and death when his kingdom comes on Earth as we say in our fathers prayer!! so he surley isnt using him the way he is to prove something as that would make God cruel not a God of Love,i wish Nick knew the truthabout God!! and his purposes and why he permitts suffering and i wish you all do too,as i’ve found the truth and thats what keeps me going in this wicked world!! anyone wanna live in Paradise on Earth?? in Gods Kingdom?? read REVELATION;21-4,5 OR GO ON http://www.watchtower.com
April 26th, 2007 at 5:08 pm
“i dont agree that God made him that way”
I disagree, all praise our limbless creator!!!
April 26th, 2007 at 8:54 pm
“I disagree, all praise our limbless creator!!!”
You insensitive clod! The Flying Spaghetti Monster has many noodly limbs! I demand respect for our noodly creator! It’s time for a pasta-led religious struggle!
May 6th, 2007 at 10:32 am
Scott said
“Yeah this guy is pure evil and it really sounds like his parents did him a disservice by telling him that he’s special and that God has a plan for him.
Scott, From what perspective do see this young man as pure evil? Hitler maybe was pure evil but this young man, is an inspriration to everyone that has a heart and a soul.
Regards, Luke
May 6th, 2007 at 10:40 am
Hello Luke,
I believe Scott was being sarcastic. Check comment 18 where he clarified his statement.
May 6th, 2007 at 11:23 am
Sidfaiwu,
Thanks for the heads up. I guess the comment stopped me in my tracks and I didn’t read on. I stand corrected.
Luke
May 8th, 2007 at 6:42 pm
God, please forgive the people who speak, type, and or think without your guidance. I know when you become personal to us, we will ask for forgiveness and you will forgive us. Bless Nick in all the work that he does for you.
Amen
May 8th, 2007 at 6:53 pm
Portia, I don’t think anyone here needs your god for guidance in their thoughts. Besides, i thought he gave us freewill? so we can pretty much do whatever we want, which coincidently enough gives god an excuse for all the pain and suffering in the world he was supposed to have created.
Ill say what i i’ve said many times to people who tell me im going to hell. If people like me are going to hell, then ill be in good company.
May 13th, 2007 at 6:52 pm
I know Nick. He was born that way because of a pathetic drug mankind made to combat nausea in pregnancy. So for all you idiots so negative about God and Nick being a “freak”, you’re a pack of useless, very specific, morons cause this had nothing to do with God.
If you were born this way, because of your shitty attitude, and because you’re just a “cosmic accident,” you’d probably snuff out your life by committing suicide.
However Nick grasped his situation and is doing something positive about it by speaking to over a million people worldwide.
But you sit there in your judgment in the comfort of your neutrality behind your computer and spew vermin at topics you have no idea about.
Truly pathetic. You pack of useless freaks.
June 13th, 2007 at 9:48 am
When the Bible speaks about being created in “God’s image” it was not refering to our flesh & bones. It was refering to our spirits. Our flesh & bones will return to dust but our spirits will live on with God. I personally find it very interesting that all of you critics talk out of both sides of your mouth saying that if he had not had his faith he’d probably not have accomplished all he has nor be as positive. How is that not the favor and blessing of God? Christianity is about faith and obviously Nick has faith. God does not give us more than we can handle that is very obvious in Nicks case as well.
My heart breaks reading the comments that some of you have left. God is a God of love & compassion. However, he DOES allow struggles in order to strengthen us and our faith. The Bible does not promise Christian’s a “perfect” life on earth if anything it is quite the contrary for us. It’s funny to me how people assume that if God is really there then a Christian’s life should be perfect without struggle. What about Jesus’ life here on earth. He lived the ulitmate struggle. No offense to Nick what-so-ever but living without limbs doesn’t compare to the beating and crusifixion that Jesus took opon Himself on Calvary.
God’s peace is beyond our understanding and His grace is greater than any sin. I pray that you will accept that Grace and allow Him open the eyes of your heart so you can experience what it is that keeps all of us Christian’s captivated. I know Him and I pray that you will too someday.
June 13th, 2007 at 8:49 pm
Howdy all,
After reading through the comments here I think some of the (I’m assuming) Christian posters have missed the point others are trying to make. I would doubt that the majority of people here would disagree that Nick is an extrodiary person who has shown great courge, fortitude and tenacity. Nor would they disagree with the opinion that Nick is an amazingly inspiring character. To overcome such an overwhelming disablility is a struggle that most of us would have trouble comprehending. I think the questions being discussed are the following. Firstly could Nick have developed such a positive and inspiring personality without the his Christian faith. Secondly was it part of Gods plan that Nick was born this way and chose his current path or merely some extrodinarily unfortunate circumstances.
As to the first question I believe the answer is yes, Nick could still have been an amazingly positive and inpsiring person without being Christian. Of course there are lots of variables and aurguments that can be made here so lets just say it is possible without getting into whether it was probable. I doubt either side of that opinion can be proved conclusively either way. I’m sure if someone did some research you could find many examples of non Christians with disabilities who could be held up as inpirational people. Taht tells me that it is at least possible at the very least. As to the second question, as I don’t believe in god it would seem to me to be merely an unfortunate set of circumstances rather than any divine plan.
As to the christian message that Nick has chosen to send. Well some of us view religion as a potentially harmfull idea that stops people from thinking for themselves and forces them to abide by whatever particullar doctrine their church follows. Now beofre the flame war begins let me just say that this is only my opinion and I am not advercating the removal of peoples right to choose what they believe in. I’m just saying that I disagree with these beliefs and some of the reasons why. I also note that the above statement is very general and I have no doubt that there are speific examples that can be shown that show it not to be true in all cases. I do believe however that it holds true for an alarming number of cases. Anyway to those of us that view Christianity this way it seems to be rather unfurtunate that Nick has chosen this particular message to spread. This in know ways detracts from my admiration and respect for someone who obviously has some very amazing qualities. It merely means that I disagree with the message he has chosen to send.
Cheers
Simon Bond
p.s. Sorry about some of my spelling.
June 14th, 2007 at 7:31 am
Hey Simon,
I think that you’ve nailed it. It often seems as though some Christians cannot separate criticism of his message from criticism of the man. As I pointed out to Pam in a previous comment, protecting Mr. Vujicic’s thoughts and beliefs from all criticism devalues them. Since his brain is properly functioning (apart from the religion infection), I see no reason to treat his thoughts any differently than an able bodied individual’s.
June 18th, 2007 at 11:10 pm
God will always provide a margin for doubt. you can discredit God and choose to believe that nick got this far by his own merits, or you can believe that he was miraculously healed and is being used by God. that’s what faith is.
“we live by faith and not by sight”
June 18th, 2007 at 11:12 pm
oh, and for comment number 4? if he DIDN’T end up with religion, he’d probably end up dead. remember how he said when he was younger he was overcome with depression and wanted to commit suicide? yeeep.
June 18th, 2007 at 11:48 pm
for all y’all haters out there: I think its wrong that you bash on not only a man who has overcome great adversity to live his life but also another group’s beliefs. Even if you aren’t christian and don’t believe in God its plain to see that Nick has so much willpower that it doesnt really matter how he justifies it or owes it to because he is happy.
i think all of you who post crap about him are the ones who have issues. you probably feel safe at home behind your computer, drinking your 2 liter bottles of mountain dew and munching on those cheetos. stop fermenting in your chair because who knows how fat one can get. Do something with your lives and no, dugeons and dragons, world of warcraft, everquest, counterstrike and virtual dating do not count. You all try to out do eachother by trying to post the most crap but in reality if you want to out do eachother, then find a room and do some tranny she-male with more fat and hair than you, maybe then you’ll finally lose your virginity.
June 19th, 2007 at 12:18 am
JESUS LOVES ALL OF YOU! Eventhough you put up barriers and scoff, God is working in your lives in ways you can’t even begin to comprehend. He loves you no matter what and He will always be there for you. Eventhough life bad things happen to you, its not because God intentionally tries to harm you, its because He loves you and is trying to strengthen you. I think it’s alright to say that we’ve all gone through ups and downs in life, but you know what? Bad things happen because they’re inevitable. You criticize Nick and other Christians for being blinded by Christianity Maybe it’s you who are blind to the fact that we are all loved by God no matter what we believe. But you’re wondering how we as Christians could believe such things. It’s because as #46 said, “we live by faith not by sight”. So believe what you want to believe just know that Jesus loves you !
June 19th, 2007 at 1:31 am
I am going to assume that Ignacio didn’t read my post as I made a point of not bashing the Nick or his struggle to overcome adversity. Further more I am also not going to dwell on the fact that his post seems fairly hypocritical. Making a strong statement about posting crap and then continuing on with all manner of (what appears to me) narrow minded diatribe. Finally as Ignacio doesn’t know me at all I will take that as the reason for the complete inaccuracy of his character assessment and what he obviously thinks are my normal daily activities.
Alot of the people posting here are mearly trying to voice their opinions as openly, clearly and honestly as possible. We are hoping to encourage discussion. Ignacio, I am afraid I fail to see what (in my opinion) angry rant brings to this discussion. It seems to me that all you are doing is trying to incite anger and conflict rather than address the issue at hand.
Brad.
“So believe what you want to believe just know that Jesus loves you!”
I agree with the first part of this statement. As I don’t believe in Jesus however it is impossible for me to know that he loves me. I cannot speak for everybody here but I don’t believe or see how I have been putting up barriers. All I have done is state my opinion in and honest and what I believe is a considerate way. Also I certainly would not scoff at what Nick has achieved. If you read my post further up you will see what I was trying to say.
I understand your point of view and it I think that it seems that both sides are of the opinion that the other is the one who is blind. You have stated that you believe that Jesus loves us all but have not brought any reaoning to the discussion. Please participate if you want to but if you are looking to preach I believe is the wrong forum (excuse the pun) to do so.
Cheers
Simon Bond
June 19th, 2007 at 10:10 am
“”we live by faith not by sight”"
i’m so happy that’s not true. If we all lived by faith instead of sight, we wouldn’t have found america for fear of tipping over the edge of the world and we would still be ritually killing sheep for our firstborn.
Still, this is perhaps the best view of religion for everyone, both pro and con.
June 21st, 2007 at 6:15 am
he is deffinately a inspirational man.
and that he thanks god for what he has.
he is a miracle of god for sure!!
June 21st, 2007 at 8:06 am
alison,
I find no inspiration from this man. In fact he is the opposite of inspirational. He took an opportunity to show the world the true power and will of mankind and threw it away. God did nothing to or for this man, he did it all himself. And to attribute his own strength and willpower to a myth does not inspire me.
June 23rd, 2007 at 1:11 am
Wow. I saw one person make an uncouth remark about pushing Nick over, and one or two others throw up an anecdote about “standing,” and both were rather disgusting, but other than that, all I see is a group of people having a reasonably mellow debate about religion and whether it should be attributed to Nick’s survival.
So.. why are the people who are having conniptions the Christians? Really, come on. I’ve read a lot of blog comments in my life, and I’m blown away by how, overall, everyone has been so respectful here. “This is my opinion, feel free to disagree.” — that sort of thing. But then a Christian will log on here and lay an egg because someone is thoughtfully questioning God’s role in Nick’s situation. My point is, it’s kind of funny how Christians tend to wear the Kindness-and-Compassion badges, yet they’re the ones crying fire and brimstone.
One lady.. I forget her name, said,
“Maybe if more people did believe and honor God and the fact that there will be consequences for your actions, this country wouldn’t be in the devastating state that it is in today.”
Woah — that’s all I have to say about that.
Oh, and I’m sorry; I should say something on the topic… This Nick guy can feel free to believe in whatever he likes. He can use that belief to propel himself down any road he chooses. Agnostic as I am, I think all that is a bunch of nonsense, but that doesn’t stop me from being inspired by his capacity to overcome such rotten circumstances ( rotten by MY standards, anyway.. I like to think about taking my cell phone for granted and then losing it and how I feel. Knowing what it’s like to have arms and legs makes the idea of losing them terrifying. ). Good for him, really.
June 23rd, 2007 at 8:45 am
What “limbs” are you missing? This dialog makes it quite apparent, whether Christian or not that we all are handicapped in some way. Should we all feel sorry for each other? Should we bully and bash each other for our differences? We can, and it may relieve something temporarily, but what is really the problem? Are you too frightened and insecure to face your own struggles? Can you say with universal certainty that “I am right” or do you harbor doubts which seem to fade when you shout loud enough?
Many of you were born with limbs-fine, but they can be taken away, through accident or disease. Then what would you do? Who would you become? Look inside yourself. Do you live with a purpose? Does it matter?
Thanks Nick for reminding us we all face our unique struggles, and that we have a choice to embrace and be uplifted by them or let them carry us down a dark destructive path.
Is Nick a miracle of God? No- if you don’t believe in miracles, and no more or less than you or me if you do believe in God.
July 6th, 2007 at 3:33 am
@agnostic:
“To say that God is the cause of your great life is to cheapen and disregard the hard work of yourself and others.”
That only makes sense if you’re an atheist. If you’re a theist, then God is the most important thing to you, and his working through your life is what you strive for. But yes, if you’re an atheist, I’m sure your statement would be true.
July 11th, 2007 at 12:48 am
All u guys that are lashing out at Nick…wow…u need help! I just read abt Nick and i thought it was amazing that he with all his disabilities is living his life and being such an inspiration to others. That’s what counts at the end…to make a difference..and he’s doing that!!! WAY TO GO NICK!!! He’s GREAT and u guys that are bashing him…PLEASE get a life!!! Don’t be so jealous of others!
July 11th, 2007 at 8:55 am
Um, Al, who’s bashing Mr. Vujicic? The only thing being criticized is his beliefs. Read comment #33 for a more complete critique of the type of knee-jerk reaction contained in your comment.
July 12th, 2007 at 3:57 pm
Personally, I think this man is amazing, whether he’s proving to himself or to everyone else he’s capable to live a normal life, is beside the point. If anything more power to him! It’s better than sitting at home plotting ways to end his life, and feeling sorry for himself. Sorry but I think it takes an extra pair of balls to go out into the world, knowing you will get stares and snide remarks, and still manage to give out love to others at the end of the day. The only thing crippling about this story, are the people commenting. So sad but very true…
July 18th, 2007 at 5:15 am
All this goes to prove is that Nick is more of a man than most, but then some ancient “fool” said it ages ago :
“I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me”
Isn’t is amazing that a so-called “useless” and “out-dated” book called the Bible also predicted a lot of what has been said on the forum:
“The fool has said in his heart
There is no God….”
Hmmmm, amazing co-incidence! I think I will keep my faithful old crutch called Christianity.
July 18th, 2007 at 6:03 am
Ros,
We just think it’s very sad that this man, who has gone trough so much, shoves all his work onto a imaginary deity.
But, wow, you mean to say the bible actually predict the world would uniformly take it as the end-all of thruth? Wait, if iit said that, It must be right about about all the other sutff as well. OH crap, I ate shellfish yesterday, might as well get used to extreme heat then.
Then again, the bible also “predicted” The End Of The World about 100 times.
July 18th, 2007 at 9:09 am
I think that the recent commenters, such as Ros and Freddie, are actually not reading the comments they are criticizing. Notice that their criticism is non-specific. They neither identify which commenter nor give reasons for their blanket insults. Showing up and calling people ‘fools’ and ‘crippling’ is useless. What makes us fools? How are we crippling Mr. Vujicic?
Unfortunately, these tend to be hit-and-run commenters and tend not to return to learn from their mistakes or to convince us that we are wrong. This makes their motive clear, they want to insult those who think differently and not help better people.
July 20th, 2007 at 5:21 am
Hi All,
I am a Christian born again and all that, i think Sidfaiwu wants is a critical logical defense for Nick’s beliefs. Before i attempt to address his issues i would like to clear out somethings first.
a)I am only responding to a logical and critical debate and not trading insults or judging anyone for what they hold true. God calls us to reason together.
c) not all that is viewed to be Christian or all who say are christian are is Christ like, the Bible refers to his true believers as children of God not CHRISTIANS!!!! that is just a label that can be used by anyone, unfortunately. So the word christian must be understood in the context of the Bible
So back to answering Sidfaiwu’s question, if you want to critic a concept, idea, or logic you must first understand what you want to critic. Without the Bible(Word of God) we would have no Christian beliefs so to get the answers you are looking for you must first read it, and test its validity. Are events recorded in the Bible historically true? As you read the Bible and try to find answers to this questions then you will be enlightened not just by the FACTS but also by God through the Holy Spirit. No human being has ever or will ever understand God and that is where faith comes in. God gives us the foundation to believe and the rest is up to us.
In short the answer yours require that you do you own research. The concept of suffering Christians is hard to swallow unless you understand the role of God in mans life. Christianity is not a shallow topic or issue but faith in God is so simplistic it defies all logic as it should.
some facts you can research
God promised to;
i) scatter Israel because they rebelled against him.
ii) Gather Israel from all the corners of the world,
and reinstate them as a nation
iii) Make their desert country fertile.
others;
iv) Did Jesus exist and did he satisfy the predictions made about him?
v) Did he rise again from the dead? How many witnesses does it take to convict a suspect in court? Can we then discard the 500plus witnesses who saw him after he rose again, some of whom still had no faith in him?
questions to answer
- Have this things actually happened
- What is the probability that things predicted thousands of years ago would hold true today?
- if Christianity is not true, how come it has offered accurate predictions about things we see happening today and how many other religions offer the same facts or probabilities?
Its probably not the kind of answer you expected but i believe everyone debating this issue or any other issue for that fact must first of all be well informed.
July 20th, 2007 at 5:58 am
I forgot, there is a predictions about technology in the Bible.
- Cashless society
- gadgets that hold data about individuals and embedded in the body, and can be used for transactions etc..
- communication that would allow people in far distances to talk.
- information relay that would allow everyone in the whole world to watch the same thing at the same time!!
- unification of nations and one world currency.
Others
- Increases in crime, compare security issues 50plus yrs ago and today
- Sudan would know no peace
- Neighbours of Israels would wage war against it
- Israelites in Ethiopia would go to Israel in great number when Israel is reinstated as a sovereign state(happened 1947-1948)
I could go on and on….
July 20th, 2007 at 6:20 am
And it would be nice if you would also list the chapter and verse instead of forcing people to go through the whole book just to find out what you are talking about.
July 20th, 2007 at 6:44 am
I don’t mean to repremand or offend anyone, but we can’t say we do not want to read the whole Bible and yet we want to establish its truth and make objective critisms. So on top on the references offered you have to FULLY informed! Its an accademic approach, not a way of making people read it. Because the Bible is a very sensitive and broad issue its not enough to just get bits and pieces.
I hope the following will assist
Isaiah 11:11
11 In that day the Lord will reach out his hand a second time to reclaim the remnant that is left of his people from Assyria, from Lower Egypt, from Upper Egypt, from Cush, from Elam, from Babylonia, from Hamath and from the islands of the sea
Ezekiel 36:24-29
Zechariah 10:8-12
If you don’t have a Bible you can go to http://www.biblegateway.com
I will send more references later, am out of time
July 20th, 2007 at 8:09 am
-Information Era
Dan. 12:4.
But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.
-increase of wickedness
Mathew 24:12 “Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold”
Isaiah 59:8-15
July 20th, 2007 at 9:31 am
Hello wanjiru,
Thank you for your thoughtful comments. It is a breath of fresh air in comparison to the recent Christian comments. I’m glad to see that you want to consider Mr. Vujicic’s thoughts and beliefs seriously.
Anyway, I have only read three complete books of the Bible from beginning to end, Genesis, John, and revelations. The contents of these three are too incredible to be credible, though I believed them at the time I read them. For such extraordinary claims, I require extraordinary evidence (Sagan’s Balance) including independent verification of the miracles. I’ll leave it to Jagannath to comment about specifics of the Bible since he knows so much more about it than I.
My main objection to Christianity is more philosophical in nature and an ancient one. God cannot be omniscient, omnipotent, and omnibenevolent since unnecessary evil and suffering exists, especially not if Hell exists. Since unnecessary suffering exists, God either does not know about it, can do nothing about it, or doesn’t care about it, any of which contradicts Christian theology.
My second objection to Christianity is empirical. Based on interpretations of the Bible, Christians have been (and in some cases are still) wrong about the world being flat, the sun circling the earth, the earth being the center of the universe, the age of the universe, the origin of species, the origin of diverse languages, the cause of illnesses (devil/demon possession), the cause of natural disasters, and effective medical treatments, to name a few. I know many moderate Christians will say that this is due to misinterpretations of the Bible. To which I ask, “based on this long history of misinterpretation, how do you know you have it right now?”
My third objection is moral. Some tenants of the Bible and descriptions of God violate our sense of ethical fairness. According to the OT, God commanded the Jews to kill entire rival tribes and enslave the women. In medieval times, heretics were tortured and murdered. In modern times, Christian rules are used to oppress homosexuals and deny access to birth control to those in over-populated, under-resourced regions of the world. All of these caused harm to living, feeling people who were not harming anyone else. I find this morally reprehensible.
There is more to these objections, but I hope this gives you an overview of my thinking.
July 21st, 2007 at 2:12 pm
Well, thank you for the vote of confidence but am still a mere dabbler in the literary work called bible.
It has been few years since I last met that claim in regards of the book of Daniel. It sounds nice in a way which would allow the combining of religion and science but that idea is one of those which each generation seem to rediscover again and again.
Now, Daniel was a prophet who is the main character in five stories in the first six chapters of the book. The most repeated story is most likely his survival in the den of lions.
The rest of the book depicts his visions, the four beasts, Goat conquering the ram, trust in god and vision of Israels future which leads to the end of days after some three and a half years later.
That is the short version of the book but claiming it prophesied informational age is quite far fetched.
Reason for it is the mere fact that, even if one would ignore the evidence that the book of Daniel was written several years later than it is claimed, the writing used to prove informational age is a prophecy of the end of the world, Armageddon.
Archangel Michael told Daniel of a great prince who stood for the humans at a time when a of trouble such has never been seen before happens. Apocalypse enthusiasts have many different things to offer for this trouble, from nuclear war to some supernatural dimensional breaking event.
Michael told Daniel that at that time all the dead shall rise as predicted to happen at the time of the Armageddon. Some will be glorified more than others but some will be eternally shamed. Nothing particularly special of this bit, they have even made movies of those times.
Now as Daniel was a Jew, he believed that all the dead are in sheol until the day of resurrection. Christians being tad over eager wanted to get to heaven right way and changed the original concept.
This verse which should prove the coming of informational age states that Michael told Daniel to stop his scribblings and close his book to the end of times. It is quite simple that people were not allowed to know of when the Armageddon would happen.
The many running around is very lousy translation when the more accurate would be many would seek to find the hidden information or book which Daniel closed. Those who would seek would find signs of the coming Armageddon or put differently their knowledge of the Armageddon would increase.
The idea that it would tell of coming of informational era is somewhat dubious as all Michael and Daniel talk there is about the end of the world.
Why do some say it predicts informational era? I personally blame Francis Bacon and universities of old who used it as a motto and sign of science and divine being the same. This verse from the Vulgate bible (end part of Daniel 12:4) is most likely the cause for idea
Scientia, has two meanings those being knowledge and of course science. When the verse is separated from the chapter it does seem that Daniel wrote a book and many will read it and their knowledge/science shall increase.
Francis Bacon, who was a great forerunner of modern scientists wrote,
I still have utmost respect for him for his ideas for improvement of human conditions but on this occasion he created an idea where was none to start with; God ordained search of knowledge.
So that is one of the reasons why it can be said to mean the coming of an informational age but that would be merely one verse out of many and I generally get scoffed when I present one verse as a proof and people complain I do not take into account what was said before and after the verse.
Most scholars agree with the Daniels prophecy being a prophecy about the end of the world and how the signs will come apparent to all as the day approaches.
One can always ignore the rest of the chapter 12 but is that how bible should be read?
July 27th, 2007 at 4:22 pm
IN RESPONSE TO THE FIRST FEW REPLIES AND THOSE WHO JUST CHOOSE TO MAKE FUN….Of course to those who do not know the Lord Jesus, you wouldnt ever be able to understand. I truly do see Nick as a miracle of God. Bad genes? Mabey, but Romans 8:28 says “And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose.” God allowed Nick to experience this, so that he could do just what he is doing- 1. Giving God all the Glory, which teaches us that when we take our eyes off of our selves and place them on a very loving heavenly father, we CAN DO ALL THINGS THRUOGH HIM (Phil 4:13). “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.” Matthew 19:26). This is Nicks testimony to those who have no hope. Are you facing hard times? Thought about taking your life? Well, this is why Nick does what he does… to show you that there is hope. Just becasue he was born without arms or legs doesnt make him a reject of life- man rejects him, because unfortunatly, we place all our confidence on what MAN thinks… and not on what our creator thinks. That is why there is so many suicides, people feeling lonely and rejected, why life just doesnt make sense…and dont act like you’re not one of these! In one way or the other, you have been rejected and hurt… There is ONE who loves you and will never reject you! No matter what you’ve done, where you’ve been, who you are… GOD LOVES YOU! ***WAIT*** before you decide to get mad and turn this posting off*** I DO APOLOGIZE FOR THOSE WHO CLAIM TO BE CHRISTIANS AND DO NOTHING BUT BRING SHAME TO THE NAME OF CHRIST BY REJECTING THOSE THAT GOD WANTS TO LOVE- YOU! Unfortunatly, there are many professing Christians who claim to be perfect, but they are not!! Unfortunatly, these “christians” forget who they were before or… there are some who claim to be “christians”, but are not. THAT’S BETWEEN THEM AND GOD…
But know that you are loves and are special to Jesus.
One scripture that Nick quotes is John 9:2-3 “His disciples asked him, “Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?”
“Neither this man nor his parents sinned,” said Jesus, “but this happened so that the work of God might be displayed in his life.”
Yo may ask, “HOW? WHAT POWER is being displayed here??” One is that God never throws anyone away- we are the ones who choose to be separated from God. Another “power” at play here is Nick, unlike the rest of us, chooses to do what he can where he is with what he has. He doesnt wallow in self pitty! He knows he is special, becasue he is loved by the MOST HIGH GOD- EL SHADDAI. And he chooses to display God’s glory through him- GOD HONORS THAT. He honors anyone who uses himself/herself to draw others to Christ. Nick has accomplished more than any normal 23 year old has accomplished- and he knows how he got to where He is…
“With God ALL THINGS ARE POSSIBLE!” If you are still reading by this point- praise God- you either know Jesus as your Lord; or you want to know more about Him… Well, you can… http://www.needhim.org
There was a reply at the top that said, “To say that God is the cause of your great life is to cheapen and disregard the hard work of yourself and others.” I completly disagree… if you have breath today-it is becasue God loves you and chose to bless you with another day- perhaps to come to know Him… You are not breathing because you “just exsist”. If you feel that way… then you diregard yourself… BUT GOD… gives you all you need in Him and through Him! Don’t know you, but I love you. NO I DONT KNOW YOU OR SEEN YOU, but GOD knows you and you are why this post was written.
MDW
July 27th, 2007 at 6:24 pm
MDW,
See that button to the left of the “A” on your keyboard? That’s the Caps Lock key.
It wants you to know that you are making it tired, and says that a good alternate combination to try is ctrl-A and then backspace.
August 2nd, 2007 at 7:12 pm
irishthunder,
when did God gives us freewill? it is written all throughout the Word of God about being predestined/preordained and elected, the chosen of God etc. everything’s been worked out before hand. and you won’t be in good company in hell. you’ll be burning and in misery. it says in the bible that there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth (Matt. 8:12). that sure sounds like good company. not!
and people shouldn’t be critical towards Nick Vujicic. God created Him this way and He has used him in wondrous ways. God created him this way because He had a plan for his life, a perfect plan and it’s being worked out as we speak.
August 2nd, 2007 at 8:06 pm
EthanF,
I claim my free will for myself. Don’t try to claim it for your non-existent god.
Your bible is full of contradictions and is in conflict with observables. Furthermore, nothing predicted in the bible in any detail has ever come to pass. Religion is holding back humanity, although there are hopeful signs in Europe (where in many countries religious freaks are in the minority and are less powerful than US fundies and other fundies). I utterly reject your (ficticious) god and the religion associated with it.
Now, as to “God created him this way”, you ought to review Sidfaiwu’s post 68 above, a relevant section of which I quote here:
“God cannot be omniscient, omnipotent, and omnibenevolent since unnecessary evil and suffering exists, especially not if Hell exists. Since unnecessary suffering exists, God either does not know about it, can do nothing about it, or doesn’t care about it, any of which contradicts Christian theology.
”
That’s a great response to Christianity. You can keep your flat earth and all your other fictions.
August 2nd, 2007 at 9:28 pm
Korgan,
Prove to me that God is non-existent. How can you look around this world and see all the beauty of it and say there is a non-existent God? Did this world come into existence by chance? I think not. Everything has a creator. Buildings have creators. They just don’t suddenly appear. God is the creator of this world and therefor God does exist.
Oh and you say that the bible is full of contradictions. How about you back up that claim with proof. The Bible doesn’t contradict itself, it compliments itself.
And you say nothing in the bible has come to pass. Maybe, that’s because you don’t have the knowledge of the Bible and wisdom where you can understand and be able to look deep into a passage and pull out it’s meaning.
Unnecessary suffering? Things happen for a reason. Bad things happen so that good may come out of them. It’s very evident if you would just look (Nick Vujicic is a good example). I’ll give you an example: One of my best friends died last december and my dad said to his father that God will use his death to bring good out it and the father said that He already has. God knows of the suffering and evil that goes into this world. He also has a plan. And His will will be done. That’s where faith comes into play.
August 2nd, 2007 at 10:13 pm
Korgan,
Religion is holding back humanity,
It’s false statment, if you read history, you will find that Muslims were really advanced while the rest of the world weren’t, and even before Islam the non-believer weren’t advanced, but when they believed in Islam, the same people got better in so many ways.
It’s not about religion, it’s about how people interpret religion.
August 3rd, 2007 at 8:31 am
EthanF, regarding your post74:
The onus of proof is unfortunately on you, or should be. I am not claiming the existence of a being with conflicting purported characteristics. I am not claiming the veracity of the bible and its many fictions, such as young flat earth and non-evolution. You are. Your arguments regarding your god having a plan are entirely circular.
No miracle has every been proven to be the work of your god. No detailed prediction of the bible has ever been verified, and the bible is full of scientifically demonstrable errors. Religious fundamentalists, many of them Christian, cause endless pain and suffering. Yet, the Christian faithful cling to their nonsense.
August 3rd, 2007 at 8:31 am
Hello EthanF,
So your solution is to deny that necessary suffering exists. Allow me to demonstrate how this is incorrect. Since this post is about Mr. Vujicic, let’s use him as an example. First, let’s assume that at some point in his life, his physical disabilities caused him copious amounts of emotional suffering and difficulties. Now the question becomes “was this suffering necessary?” I presume that you considering that his suffering was necessary because it resulted in a greater good (I deny that preaching is a ‘good’ at all, but I can see why Christians would think it is).
If God were all-powerful, He’d (I use the masculine pronoun since it is the tradition of Christians, whom I am addressing) be able to achieve that greater good without any suffering. If God were all-knowing, He’d be know how to achieve that greater good without any suffering. If God were all-loving, he’d want to achieve that greater good without any suffering. Thus the suffering, from God’s perspective is completely unnecessary.
So which is it? Is God unable, doesn’t know how, or doesn’t care enough to achieve the greater good without Mr. Vujicic’s suffering?
August 3rd, 2007 at 8:34 am
Mohamed, I think that you would agree that it’s not religion alone that led to the Golden Age of Islam. After all, the present situation in the Middle East says enough about what may happen if things go the other way. It’s about the way people regard advancement. Religion can be an important part of that, but not all. Also, once the Medieval era ended, Europe started to advance quite quickly without Islam.
August 3rd, 2007 at 8:36 am
For some reason I didn’t notice your last sentence when I responded. Looks like we weren’t too far apart anyway.
August 3rd, 2007 at 8:55 am
Mohamed,
Well, as usual I have to disagree with you :-).
I don’t dispute the advances that happen to have been made in the Muslim world in the past. I simply dispute that they are evidence of the veracity of what the religion claims. In other words, I think that a culture itself, with the right characteristics and the right natural resources to draw from, can provide fertile ground for advancement. The validity of the religion itself is unnecessary, as is the existence of the god of that particular religion.
Consider also the exponential advances in our understanding and our inventions of the past few hundred years, such as general relativity, Newtonian mechanics, semiconductors, modern biochemistry, and so on, even as the scientists and inventors have moved further and further from religion generally. Islam and other religions played no positive part in these, and in fact many Islamic countries have fallen behind in economic standing and scientific accomplishments. Snurp also spoke to this point in an earlier post. We cannot attribute progress generally to this religion, nor any other religion. Religion has frequently been at odds with the progress I describe, and on that and other grounds, it has held back humanity and continues to do so.
Furthermore, I consider the interpretation of a religion, or its doctrine, and even the reduction to practice of this interpretation, to be part and parcel of the religion.
August 3rd, 2007 at 11:34 am
Korgan,
Do you believe in George Washington? All you have to go on that he existed are the accounts of Him but you weren’t alive when he was alive. So how could you know for sure? There are much much more manurscripts and such that support the Bible than for any other ancient book or document.
All you are doing is saying and not backing anything up with proof. You say nothing in the bible has been verified. Prove that. You say that the bible is full scientifically demonstrable errors. Prove that. The onus of proof isn’t on me. I’ve given you prove and real examples. You on the other hand, have offered nothing in favor of what you believe.
sidfaiwu,
When a parent punishes you does it mean the don’t care? (I’m not saying how he born was punishment for Nick Vujicic) When let’s say a basketball coaches gives you a difficult drill does it mean he doesn’t care? NO! They are meant to build your character, build your skills so you can become better as a ball player and person. God does care. Suffering doesn’t mean He doesn’t care. He offers suffering as a means for us to draw closer to Him, to build our faith, to build our character. If suffering and trials never happened then how would we grow as a person? We wouldn’t. We would stay the same and wouldn’t get better in anything. Just like if a coach never gave a basetball player tougher drills. The player wouldn’t improve and therefore wouldn’t be able to compete with better players. Mr. Vujicic suffering was meant to strengthen his character and who he was as a christian. God has used his suffering as a means for him to be an ispiration to all. If God didn’t love He wouldn’t have sent his only saw to die on a cross for us. God is able, he does care, and he knows how. Mr. Vujicic is a great example of that. If you would just read about his life and his testimony maybe you would see that. If you would have an open mind when you read that would help to.
August 3rd, 2007 at 1:05 pm
Hello again EthanF,
Ah, the old ‘parent analogy’. No, it doesn’t mean I don’t care. It does mean that I have neither the power nor the knowledge to design an environment that would allow my child to have a normal development without getting into trouble or suffering. So since you are so convinced that God cares, which deficiency does he suffer from, lack of power or lack of knowledge?
The other example you give, ‘character building’ as an excuse to label suffering ‘necessary’, doesn’t explain suffering that results in loss of life. What character growth does a five year old experience when she is kidnapped, rapped, tortured, and killed? Or the kid who dies a painful death from leukemia? Character building my ass.
Finally, you’re assuming that there is no possible way to build character without suffering. You are saying that God doesn’t have the power and/or know-how to build character or strength without suffering. No matter which way you try to dance around it, God is either not all-powerful, not all-knowing, not all that caring, or some combination of these.
August 3rd, 2007 at 4:07 pm
EthanF,
Just to take your example, and directly answer your question: No, I do not believe in George Washington in any sense that would be like a religious belief or faith. I simply think that it is very likely that he existed, based on the available evidence and the credible and reasonable claims that are made about him. That is very different from a belief or faith. To summarize, I think that it is vastly more likely that George Washington existed than that Jesus Christ (so-called) was a divine being.
Most of the record of George Washington was written in English, so there is little room for misinterpretation or mistranslation. The record is also very recent. More significantly, so far, no one is claiming divine powers for George Washington. The case of your god is completely different. Contradictory divine powers are claimed for your god, but as has been repeated here and elsewhere many times, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, and in my view, no such incontrovertible evidence exists for your god. Yes, there is a lot of written material, much of it postdating the claimed events by many years, and interpreted many different ways. However, even if you write that the sky is made up of giant blue elephants a million times in a thousand languages, that does not make the statement true. Don’t you find it a little odd that your god apparently appeared once perhaps thousands of years ago, with nary a peep since then?
Anyway, on to your claims about scientific evidence. First, let me ask you some basic questions so that I can understand which sect of Christianity you refer to and believe, and which of the many errors in the bible we should speak of first. Do you think that the earth is less than 100,000 years old? How do you explain the fossil record? Where do you think humans originated on the planet, and how was the earth populated? Do you think that the earth is the center of our solar system? Once you answer those questions, then we can get started into specifics.
August 3rd, 2007 at 6:25 pm
Korgan,
“I don’t dispute the advances that happen to have been made in the Muslim world in the past. I simply dispute that they are evidence of the veracity of what the religion claims. In other words, I think that a culture itself, with the right characteristics and the right natural resources to draw from, can provide fertile ground for advancement. ”
Now you are contrdicting your slef, you accuesd that the religion hold human-being from advancing, yet you said the statment above, you can apply the same statment that religion is not the reason for holding people back.
August 3rd, 2007 at 6:43 pm
Mohamed,
In fact there is no contradiction in what I said at all. You are applying the logical fallacy of denying the antecedent to turn around what I said. The logical flaw is your own.
August 3rd, 2007 at 8:34 pm
Read what you wrote, you blamed religion saying it’s holding advances, and at the time that Muslims were advanced which they consider the pioneers which they are more conservative religion didn’t hold advancing back.
I agree with you culture and certain circumstances where makes advances, so you shouldn’t balme religion as long as you are not going to give it a credit, see who has the flaw.
August 5th, 2007 at 2:40 pm
alcari Says:
June 19th, 2007 at 10:10 am
“â€we live by faith not by sight—
i’m so happy that’s not true. If we all lived by faith instead of sight, we wouldn’t have found america for fear of tipping over the edge of the world and we would still be ritually killing sheep for our firstborn.
Actually, the fact that Columbus did not rely on his Sight but His faith that there was a “New World” out there to discover led him to find what he found…
Methinks that you got it backwards….
If you are always relying on what you see to guide you , you will never achieve what you could, if you had faith enuff to pursue what you were after.
So basically Alcari, your post to this thread is moot…
And to the rest of you Non-Believers, all I can do is pray that God, somehow makes it thru to you.
Finally, God does give us free will…And he is greatly saddened when we choose not to acknowledge that he is always in control….
Remember we reap what we sew….And if we are out there sewing seeds into Godless, Free Will living and doing whatever your little hearts desire, you are stepping out of the Hedge of protection that God provides and you are then vulnerable to ANYTHING the WORLD can do to get you….
Think about it….
Cheers, People
August 5th, 2007 at 5:19 pm
Hello Gary,
Actually, Gary, Columbus was trying to find a new path to India. He was searching for a shorter route to trade with India. His motives was profit, not some faith in discovery.
The rest of your comment is just preaching. *yawn*
August 5th, 2007 at 5:31 pm
It appears that this young man has succeeded in getting some of the attention he has requested.
If nothing else, he provides an explanation for the purpose of religion. A method to not only overcome his own adversity, but to also provide a path for a few other lost souls amongst the humans.
August 6th, 2007 at 6:00 am
sidfaiwu
“My main objection to Christianity is more philosophical in nature and an ancient one. God cannot be omniscient, omnipotent, and omnibenevolent since unnecessary evil and suffering exists, especially not if Hell exists. Since unnecessary suffering exists, God either does not know about it, can do nothing about it, or doesn’t care about it, any of which contradicts Christian theology.”
Are we supposed to define who God is? Should we conclude he doesnt exist just coz he fall short of our expectations? Anyone who get to define his “god” is looking for an idol, how powerful can a god we define or create be? The God i believe in (God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit) preceeded man. So when all mankind is placed on this earth he finds God already existing, he does not get to decide who God is.
What suffering are you talking about that makes you think there is no God.
1. Murder - man takes gun shoots people. What are your expectations of God in such a situation.
2. Death - God gives eternal life to those who love him and all children get to go to heaven. Whether they are murdered, die of illnes…. you name it. To true Christian death(except by suicide) is not tragedy, its just sad for those left behind.
3. Adultery - family disintergrates, innocent spouse get STD’s
etc….
What is it we expect from God when we make this analogy? Do we want him to get rid of the consequences of our actions/decisions. What are the causes of most human suffering, aren’t most of them “man made”?
CHOICES! CHOICES! CHOICES! FREEDOM! isn’t that what we love; to do what we want, when we want.
Even when God punished man in the Bible it was because of sin(the ten commandments exodus 20)He punished man for
1. Murder
2. Sexual Imorality(fornication, adultery, homosexuality)
3. Idol Worship
4. Social Injustices
5. Blasphemy
etc….
How can a God who prescribes solutions to problems we face today not be a good God. John 3:16-17. How can Love be bad, when it does not force itself on us. Can you imagine someone forcing you to love them!!
God wants us to love him by choice and even from Bible accounts it did not matter how many times God showed up Israelites and the world, they all turned against him eventually! and that would still hold true today.
Is there anyone with concrete facts that God does not exist, so that we can also debate on them as we debate on Christian and Islamic claims.
August 6th, 2007 at 10:57 am
Hello wanjiru,
Welcome back. We haven’t heard from you in a while.
You responded to one of my three objections to Christianity, the problem of evil/suffering: since evil/suffering exists, God cannot be all-powerful, all-knowing, and all-loving of humans. First, allow me to clear up a misconception you have.
First off, Christian do suppose they know the nature of God, which includes omnipotence, omniscience, and omnibenevolence, I do not. Thus showing that any one of these traits do not belong to God is to prove the non-existence of the Christian God. I’m not trying to prove that God does not exist (indeed, such a task is ultimately futile), but to prove that the Christian concept of God is fatally flawed.
If I understand your comment correctly, you claim that God is not responsible for evil and suffering in the world because said evil/suffering is man-made. This is a variation on the free-will argument. To start with, I don’t believe we have free-will (in which case God would be responsible), but for the sake of argument, let’s suppose we do.
It is possible that God could have created us with different inclinations. He could have easily have created us with more passive tendencies. Thus we could still choose to be evil, but would be much less likely to. If God truly loves all humans, as Christians claim, He would have done so. The only other explanations for why God has failed us in this capacity is that He doesn’t have the ability (not omnipotent) or He doesn’t know how (not omniscient), either of which contradicts Christian theology.
Also, your objection to the problem of evil doesn’t take into account suffering that is a result of non-human causes: natural disasters, plagues, famine, etc. According to Christians, God had the power and knowledge to create a world without the bubonic plague or hurricane Katrina, but did not. Why?
You also have yet to deal with my other two objections to Christianity: the empirical and moral ones.
August 7th, 2007 at 3:58 pm
Well. I viewed him on Hour of Power on Sunday. And at first, yes, fascinated. Then thought “wow, this guy really could prove the existence of God and Jesus. Maybe I will believe. But then, turns out he is just as much of an asshole creep aluminum-siding salesman or used-car salesman as any other TV evangelist that wants your money to save your soul. If Nick were truly sincere, he’d be out there in India picking up where Mother Teresa left off, or out there in Rwanda helping those whom had their hands cut off by the rebels. But to simply be on TV ‘motivating’ people to send in money ? Just another huckster. Just another prostitution scandal waiting to happen. Can’t wait to see who/what they find him in the hotel room with doing the horizontal nasty.
Nick is inspiring. Sort of.
I remain cynical until he sprouts angel wings.
August 8th, 2007 at 8:29 pm
How many secular humanists does it take to do the good that this one limbless fellow is doing?
Oh, by the way, Alvin Plantinga has defeated the problem of evil. You’ll have to find somewhere else to hang your anti-Christian God hat. Sorry.
August 9th, 2007 at 9:00 am
Hello Travis,
Alvin Plantinga’s Freewill defense against the problem of evil has already been mentioned by others, including wanjiru. He simply didn’t reference Dr. Plantinga (whom I’ve had the fortune of meeting in person). I’ve seen no convincing arguments that we even have free-will, so if your only defense against the problem of evil is that, you must first convince me that freewill exists.
Also, this only addresses the evil done by humans and does nothing to address the related problem of suffering. See my comment above (#91) for a more complete description of this problem.
Lastly, your comment seems to contain some venom. Forgive me if I am mistaken, it is easy to read things into text that was not intended by the author, but it seems that you have a severe dislike for non-Christians. Why is that?
August 10th, 2007 at 10:17 am
To go back a little..
“”So basically Alcari, your post to this thread is moot…”"
No, it’s completely valid, you just fail to see the other side of the argument, the side which I intended.
You see, If columbus had been listening to other people, as religion teaches us, instead of think for himself, as he did. He would never have found the americas. Only because he thought for himself “Well, the world is round, so I can probably get to the indies the other way round” Did he get anywhere.
It’s that kind of thinking that is actively discouraged by religion, by saying “God did it like it written in this book here, because god is god.
Back to the current point.
To answer Travis’ first question, though he probably meant it in jest,
How much good is Mr. Vujicic doing exactly? Specifically point out the constructive things that a secular humanist could not do, please.
No, I don’t consider spreading religious faith contructive.
August 11th, 2007 at 9:59 am
I dont feel sorry for Nick, because he knows where his heart is with God. I feel sorry for all that won’t accept God as their father.
I know where my eternity lies and so does Nick!
Thank you Nick for spreading the word all over!
God has blessed you and will bless you even more in heaven!
God loves you and you and you and me too!
Grace
August 15th, 2007 at 6:18 am
sidfaiwu, I would love to address all the issues that you raise but i never seem to have the time. Christian faith is a personal choice.
Faith is confident belief in the truth, value, or trustworthiness of a person, idea, or thing.
Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence. So Matters of faith cannot be proved. However, there are certain truths that can be tested in the Bible.
People for or against Christianity read the Bible and its text is understood differently by both parties. There is not much a Christian can say to someone who is conversant with the Christian faith and rejects it.
If anyone is looking to be convinced with 100% facts, am afraid you wont get that here or anywhere else for that matter.
Sidfaiwu, I will have to do serious study, and prayers to answer some of those critical issue’s you’ve raised so far.
August 15th, 2007 at 8:58 am
please i want to know nick more i dont just want to comment and be over with.i want to mail him personally through his personal email add.i want to be nicks friend.please nick mail me my email add is elizalandeay@yahoo.com.PLEASE NICK i know u read all this comments i want to check my box next time and meet ur mail.thanks! GOD bless u all
August 15th, 2007 at 8:59 am
No problem, wanjiru. Good luck on your study!