Ah now this is a story that has DANGER written all over it. I can run with this story in a dozen different directions, most of which will get me hate mail :) But we are professional amateurs here so let us begin.
Ok, what do you call a person with no arms and no legs who is shaving? Nick. Well to be exact, his name is Nick Vujicic and he was born without arms and legs. Before you fire off the hate mails, you should really read the entire story. You’ll see what I mean. Now, while that would devastate the average human, it has only fueled Vujicic to better himself and countless others.
Confused yet? Allow me to explain. Nick Vujicic is a man of many trades. He is a motivational speaker, real estate investor, stock market investor and author. But most importantly, Nick is an evangelist who travels the world spreading the word of God. Now one would think that Nick would be upset with God, since he forgot to give him arms and legs. But Nick is a “the glass is half full” kind of guy. He often tells people “I stand before you today as a miracle of God.”
Now think about that for a minute. Is he really a miracle of God or just some guy that was dealt poor genes? Now whenever I see someone like this preaching the word of God, one explanation comes to mind. I think that people like Nick need to prove to others and themselves, that they are just as capable and in control of their life. The want to believe that there is a reason for their condition and they weren’t just screwed over by the man upstairs.
They say God works in mysterious way. But no matter how you slice it, Nick Vujicic is one fascinating person. He has accomplished more than many people under circumstances that would cripple most. Whether or not God has anything to do with it, you decide.
Thanks to Headline Junky once again for the story!
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October 12th, 2007 at 9:21 pm
Faith is an incredible tool. Mankind has used it throughout time and location to better society as a whole. When a person or society is weak, hurt, or otherwise in need, outside control, vision,strength is a welcome necessity. This outside power could never be effective coming from a mere human being. Inorder to have a united faith (strength) it must be aimed at something more pure and powerful than we all know mankind to be. I doubt mankinds’ potential has ever been achieved, but aiming for something beyond our reach will always get us closer than no target at all. Jesus Christ,Mother Teresa, Ghandi……Nick? Are all examples of people aiming higher than the average Joe. I thank the power of the human mind for creating such personable characters for society to connect and follow in times of need.
October 12th, 2007 at 7:59 pm
No, Boi, I won’t take your bait.
Before I respond to your drivel, please review my questions and respond to each of them. Provide references.
In coming here back with yet more insults, you haven’t kept your word. Furthermore, I’m beginning to suspect that you and Joe are the same person based on your comment about the 6 starter questions. If that is true, then you are being dishonest on two fronts. How very Christian of you.
October 12th, 2007 at 7:42 pm
Korgan said, “In fact, far from what you state, I’m actually very happy, very successful, very wealthy, and I have a huge set of friends.” Happy people don’t have to tell it, they show it. Same for successful and wealthy. Nor even a huge set of friends. If these were true, you wouldn’t be hovering over this site ready to fly down and attack. I believe you’re trying to convince yourself more than me. I also notice you use the word “we” a lot. It appears you are pretending to be part of a team and asking for someone to please back you up. What’s up with that?
But then you say, “Sad to see you back.”, “Michael, get lost.”, “Enough with your preaching, Michael. You are just spewing nonsense.”, “Regarding “what are YOU going to do with the Christ in “Christianâ€.â€, I’m going to toss it in the trash along with all other religious nonsense. My life is not dictated by fear of your ridiculous sky fairy.”, and “So there, loser.”.
But my biggest dissapointment is that you seem to have just learned the word “veracity” and you just can’t get enough of it. LOL.
If you have time to respond to this with all your friends and all your money, then bring it own.
October 12th, 2007 at 3:11 pm
bois8726,
Sad to see you back.
Re “his lowly state of misery”, you are still spouting baseless insults. As you do with your religion, you make assumptions about me that have no grounding in reality.
In fact, far from what you state, I’m actually very happy, very successful, very wealthy, and I have a huge set of friends. I just consider it a moral obligation to bring all the holes and inconsistencies in Christian doctrine and Christian “thinking” such as yours to light.
So there, loser.
October 12th, 2007 at 1:26 pm
“Those questions are so far from what Christianity is all about that it’s almost funny if it didn’t represent the anguish of a sad lost soul.”
This is in many ways true. That said, don’t reject what others have to say simply because they’re looking at it through a different lens. People like Korgan (and I) are looking at Christianity from a different point of view. We have different ways of analyzing our values. Your goal shouldn’t simply be to say “You’re wrong!” but to ask what those differences are, and to try to reach reconciliation. I am not a Christian, and yet I can take efforts to understand their position and find that it helps me to understand how they feel. I think that to do likewise, to listen to the views of others and to understand how they are instead of telling them how they are, is a much better way to go about it (and perhaps the more Christian way). This also goes for people coming from the other direction. Maybe you disagree with the Christian metaphysics, but accusing them of worshiping fairies in the sky probably isn’t the best way to go about it (even if you feel that to be true). It just makes you look like the “idolatrous fools” some claim you to be. If there’s no way to even talk to each other instead of past each other, we won’t get anywhere.
October 12th, 2007 at 1:07 pm
Michael,
I had said I would not post on this forum again because I was told I was doing more harm than good by some of the sad souls on here. I realize after reading some of Korgan’s responses to you that that isn’t true, hence I’m here. I’ve had the same 6 questions above asked of me. Funny how he accused you of copying and pasting. LOL. Those questions are so far from what Christianity is all about that it’s almost funny if it didn’t represent the anguish of a sad lost soul. It’s obvious that Korgan hovers over this fourm like a vulcher waiting to pounce on the next happy soul to come along and try to drag them down to his lowly state of misery. Remember, “Misery loves company…”.
His question: 6. “Does Christian doctrine still claim that the solar system is earth-centric?” It is earth-centric in the same sense that my life is self-centric because that’s my only view of the rest of the world. The proper phrase should be, “From my stand point…”. He simply doesn’t understand that God didn’t tell us that from His view we were circling around the sun. Nor did he tell us that in the 1980’s we would have cell phones or that we’ll die on ???????? date. What a miserable life we would be living here if he had told us EVERYTHING. There would be no need, no desires, no learning, no….well, nothing.
It’s impossible for us as Christians to understand why anyone would want to be critical of those like Nick who are doing nothing but great things for everyone while these people’s only desire it seems is to tear down and destroy anything that’s good. They have had to do an awful lot of research to find all the bad things that those professing to be Christians .0000000000000000001% and totally focus in on that while totally ignoring the 99.99999999999999999% good that Christianity has done for the world. Sounds EXACTLY like satan doesn’t it.
As Christians we can handle it though because one thing God did warn us about is the Korgan’s that we would be facing.
October 12th, 2007 at 11:06 am
Michael, re your post 193, and like I have said previously, I’ve already done my thinking and analyzing of Christianity, which is apparently your particular religion. I have found it contradicted by ready evidence and inconsistent with itself.
So, since I have your attention, I in turn would like you to do some thinking, rather than your previous preaching in this thread, and your copying and pasting of typical Christian dogma. As I said to Kristie, save your prayer time in my case, since I have already rejected the validity of your religion and of your prayers, and spend some of your time thinking instead. Here’s the exercise for you to think about and work through: provide answers to the following questions.
1. How does Christianity explain how the earth was populated?
2. How old does Christianity say the earth is? Still 6,000 years, or has that doctrine changed?
3. What is the current Christian view of the shape of the earth?
4. What is the current Christian explanation of observable speciation and evolution over time?
5. What is the current Christian viewpoint on homosexuality? Is it still a sin?
6. Does Christian doctrine still claim that the solar system is earth-centric?
That is just to get you started on curing your religion sickness.
Thanks,
Korgan
October 12th, 2007 at 12:00 am
Korgan, please just think about it. Whenever, you have a drink, just think about it, please. I’ll still mention you in my prayers.
have a nice day.
October 11th, 2007 at 11:36 pm
Michael, get lost.
October 11th, 2007 at 11:21 pm
I give praise and honour to my Lord and Saviour Christ Jesus for spewing nonsense.
Korgan, you too can have this hope we have in Christ Jesus, for he loves you and welcomes you with open arms. I just wanted to tell you the love he has for us, through his son Christ Jesus. But God who is rich in mercy, for his love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, has quickened us together with Christ, by grace you are saved; and has raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus.
Korgan,i humbly ask, will you read the words of God and I will pray that the Spirit of God, would reveal the truth to you and you more than living water.
A woman ask this question…
The woman saith unto him, Sir, thou hast nothing to draw with, and the well is deep: from whence then hast thou that living water?
Jesus said,
But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.
October 11th, 2007 at 10:41 pm
Enough with your preaching, Michael. You are just spewing nonsense.
October 11th, 2007 at 8:41 pm
get behind me satan… Nick, has a choice to follow your belief but does not. Nick gives the glory where the glory should go, to God… Nick, has chosen life and the truth that is in Christ Jesus. Nick, has done well, for he has listened and is obedient to his parents. I praise God for wonderful parents.
Listen satan, i have done your ways and that way only leads to destruction. Now, I know the truth and light it shines on your way of belief(and I will give you pastors according to mine heart, which shall feed you with knowledge and understanding).
there is hope for you… seek his word and it shall be revealed.(For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved, For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God, the gift of God is eternal life through Christ Jesus “OUR” Lord and Saviour).
For me, i leave my sins at the cross for his blood has atone me transgressions.
my prayer is that you have life and not the darkness of the world.
October 11th, 2007 at 4:46 pm
Kristie, again, nothing that Nick has said or done is evidence for the veracity of what the Christian religion claims as fact, nor is it evidence for any intrinsic validity to Christian doctrine over any other belief system. In fact, one expects that Nick could have done similarly well, given his determination, if he believed instead in the Flying Spaghetti Monster, and perhaps done so with humor too. It is “so” false that a particular god is a requirement here.
October 11th, 2007 at 12:58 pm
this man is so strong he has a heart of someone who believes. he has changed lifes and he has deffinently gave me a better outlook on life. he is not sitting around crying cause he has no arms and no legs. he lives his life to the fullest and he never gives up. there were points where he wanted to give up but he kept on succeeding. he also said if you want to get someone where in life you have to believe that you are going to be used by god! he is so true. thank you Nick Vaijicic
October 10th, 2007 at 7:43 pm
Michael, you are merely preaching and regurgitating from your particular doctrine. Nothing about Nick demonstrates any veracity for your religion.
October 10th, 2007 at 6:50 pm
Praise God… Vick knows the truth. I thank you guys including Nick for making our God and Saviour Christ Jesus alive.
The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: but the word of our God shall stand for ever.
There is HOPE and is OUR ANCHOR in OUR Lord and Saviour Christ Jesus, Whosoever believeth on him shall have life and the truth.
October 6th, 2007 at 3:06 pm
No, Joe, you can’t get away with that “Christianity can and will (forever) stand up to critical examination. ” rubbish here. Christian doctrine isn’t even self-consistent, nor is it time-invariant.
Let’s start with just basic examination of Christianity:
1. How does Christianity explain how the earth was populated?
2. How old does Christianity say the earth is? Still 6,000 years, or has that doctrine changed?
3. What is the current Christian view of the shape of the earth?
4. What is the current Christian explanation of observable speciation and evolution over time?
5. What is the current Christian viewpoint on homosexuality? Is it still a sin?
6. Does Christian doctrine still claim that the solar system is earth-centric?
Regarding “what are YOU going to do with the Christ in “Christianâ€.”, I’m going to toss it in the trash along with all other religious nonsense. My life is not dictated by fear of your ridiculous sky fairy.
October 5th, 2007 at 11:28 pm
Korgan,
Christianity can and will (forever) stand up to critical examination. It has since its foundation, and is stronger than ever today all over the world. One God man and 12 followers have led to the Christian faith being preached worldwide, and flourishing in countries where it is persecuted the most.
You tell me why it can’t stand up to critical examination, and I’ll respond in kind.
Also, you guys all love to point out all the terrible things that have been done through the course of history as a result of “Christianity”? What about all the good things that have been done throughout history as a result of the Christian faith? If you put them on a scale, the good FAR outweighs the bad. If you want a list, I’ll be happy to provide one. Finally, true Christianity is about faith in Jesus, the Son of the Living God, who humbled himself by coming to earth and living among us so that He could die on a cross for you and for me, and ultimately allow you to be forgiven for mocking and besmirching Him and His Father. The question is not what Christians have done wrong, they are imperfect, just like non-Christians are, they need forgiveness and a savior. The question is, what are YOU going to do with the Christ in “Christian”. He is the one you’ll have to give an account to one day: Who’s going to be responsible for the forgiveness of your sins: you or Him. You won’t want it to be you. And I don’t think an acceptable answer is going to be “your followers turned me off”, although I unfortunately acknowledge that sometimes happens.
October 2nd, 2007 at 8:58 pm
God #1 ….Nick your a great guy those who dont believe in God,well they will have to pay someday……………
September 21st, 2007 at 3:43 pm
Hawaii, could you please cite a few of the posts prior to yours that you think constitute or contain “such ugliness”? Please also, if you could, describe exactly what you think the ugliness being presented is?
This will help us to know whether or not you really understand Sid’s point that, essentially, criticizing a belief is not at all the same as attacking the holder of the belief (see post 58, and also 33, among others).
Personally, I think that a lot of the sensitivity that I am seeing here to the criticism of Christianity, and the attempts to paint that criticism as something other than appropriate criticism and debate, is just one more sign of how weakly founded the belief itself is; the belief can’t stand up to critical examination.
So, I hope that you will respond to my request, and I hope now that we in turn have got you thinking.
Thanks,
Korgan
September 21st, 2007 at 2:49 pm
Nick is a great inspiration. Whether you believe in God or not, yes, it is your choice. But He is available now if you want Him, but one day, you will know. Not meant as a threat, but as the truth.
It is sad to think that one man’s strength to endure with God’s help has brought about such ugliness from a lot of you. Even children know this, “If you can’t say something nice, don’t say nothing at all”.
Sometimes, no matter how good something is, some will only see the worst in it. Still, God loves us all, no matter what.
Nick, if you even got to read through these horrific comments about you… You can’t win them all, but you did get all of them thinking… God Bless You Nick!
Hawaii.
September 21st, 2007 at 10:24 am
Rita, have you done careful statistics to validate what you are saying? Are you in a Christian-dominated region (likely in the US). In your jurisdiction, what percentage of the families of the disabled patients were Christian, and did you normalize the results accordingly?
Try inserting almost any religion instead of “Christianity”, such as Muslim, Hindu or Jewish, into what you just said. Do you think your conclusions change, provided that you have a decent sample size? Now try inserting any community support group, secular or otherwise, instead. Normalize in every case. I suspect your observation will remain the same.
Regardless, your observation as stated actually does not prove that Christianity is anything other than a crutch. In fact, the observation can also be taken to be showing what a powerful crutch religion is. Neither conclusion would be robust.
However, even if actual reliable statistics did show what you are trying to claim, I think that they would not be evidence the veracity of what Christianity claims regarding the nature of god and Christ.
In my case, I’m fortunate to have done volunteer work with an amazing community of disabled athletes and their supporters, including families. In my case, I’m impressed by the determination of these athletes to get past their disabilities, and I give to them credit for that as individuals, not to some religious deity. I think to do otherwise would simply be unfair to their personal efforts. They themselves deserve the credit.
Korgan
September 21st, 2007 at 9:47 am
After 20 years as a developmental disabilities specialist I can tell you the huge difference between how Christian families cope and non-Christians. You can’t say Christianity is just their crutch because it is miraculous to see how Christians can love and appreciate life beyond the physical or mental limits they may have as humans. I can’t tell you how many non-Christians have been unable to recover from their angry, hatred, sour attitudes because life has dealt them such a blow.
September 20th, 2007 at 10:13 am
Bye boi8726,
I’m glad you recognize your frustration. Taking things to extremes is very easy when discussing things we feel passionately about. It’s human nature, I’ve done the same here.
The lady in the article I linked was undoubtedly insane. What I am suggesting is that if she wasn’t also a Christian, she would not have murdered. She honestly believed that God speaks directly to people. She honestly believed that God commanded Abraham to murder his son. Because of these beliefs, she willingly accepted the voices in her head as God’s voice. Had she not held these irrational beliefs from her Christianity, it is much more likely that she would have recognized the voices for what they really were, symptoms of a mental illness. Then, instead of obeying the voices, she would have sought help. Thus Christianity did real harm in modern times.
The Statue of Liberty? I love it and the liberal form of governance it represents. The Boy Scouts of America? I have mixed emotions, having been in them as a child.
“some people get great joy from wanting to destroy anything good that they couldn’t be a part of.” Destroy? I don’t really want to destroy anything. I get my joy from practicing the art of argumentation and debate. Religion is a ripe playing ground for those hobbies ;)
“I have been a non-Christian and I am a Christian and for those who have only experienced the non-Christian life cannot possibly know or even acturately speculate what being a Christian is like.”
We followed opposite paths. I used to be an avid Christian who wanted to learn more. The more I learned, the more I realized it was bunk.
September 20th, 2007 at 8:59 am
boi8726, you said “If you truly and I mean truly are “searching for the truthâ€, then why not go visit a Christian church for a few weeks…”
You are not doing justice to the knowledge of Christianity that many of us on this forum have, and you are in essence contradicting your own statement that we have been very prepared to debate you. Many of us on this forum, myself included, have spent a lot of time in Christian churches and demonstrably have pretty deep knowledge of the bible. That is precisely why we can so soundly reject Christianity.
It would be a very good thing in fact if you do leave this forum with questions, some of those being questions about your own religion that we have brought up that you have not answered. Open your own mind, and do some thinking on what we have said to you. If you come back, do us the justice of reasoning through what has been said to you and preparing your arguments. You certainly now know where I stand, and it is not for lack of study of Christianity.
September 19th, 2007 at 8:15 pm
Simon,
Forgive me, I do admitedly get a little frustrated when I ask what I believe to be simple questions and get no answers. You’re right, that’s not Christian like and I hope it proves to you that Christians are free thinkers and still human.
alcari came closer than anyone in answering my question about fearing Christians when he mentioned women and children suffering because Christians deny abortion. Only problem is, I’m not aware of any place on earth where this is the case. And comments like that, that all of us know are untrue makes me wonder what else is just totally made up by you (as in y’all). I’ll also admit that I am probably erroniously applying each of you’re comments to the others.
I can accept your thoughts and opinions as well as any others on here but I simply can’t sit by and let you make comments about Christianity being dangerous to anything or anyone without attempting to correct you. Because it’s not.
I often tell my children who have never been adults that it is dangerous territory thinking you know what adults think when you’ve never been one. I on the other hand have been a child, teenager and adult. Only me and others who have experienced each phase truly know what it is like to be in each phase. Likewise, I have been a non-Christian and I am a Christian and for those who have only experienced the non-Christian life cannot possibly know or even acturately speculate what being a Christian is like.
The David Karesh and Jim Jones and other similar people of the world really hurt Christianity in the eyes of non-Christians. But keep in mind the Christianity I’m talking about will never make the evening news. It’s not like the old lawyer joke about 99% of lawyers give the others a bad name. LOL. It’s the 1% who I’ll say again are not real Christians are, sadly, the ones the world hears about and focus in on.
On this forum, we will never agree. If you truly and I mean truly are “searching for the truth”, then why not go visit a Christian church for a few weeks, try talking to God through prayer and I’ll bet you will start changing your way of thinking. But please don’t do it if you go in with and closed mind and heart with intentions of proving everything wrong.
I believe a person tends to get the results they are looking for when doing anything. And the same is true on this forum and in this debate. Because you’ve indicated that what I have tried to accomplish on here is having an opposite effect then this will be my last post. However, I will pray that you all find peace.
September 19th, 2007 at 6:24 pm
Howdy all,
I tried to post a tenet of mine that start off as “I was born a fool and I’ll die a fool. To think otherwise would be foolish”. It went on to say that condeming a fool who knows he is a fool show no greater wisom then a fool. I am sure everyone here can join the dots. It seems to have been caught in the spam filter though. So it may or may not appear sometime in the future.
bois8726 whilst I understand that you believe there is hope for Sid and I I am not sure the same can be said of you. As I have already stated I don’t have the answers. I only have an idea of where I think they may lie. You seem to continually take our points of discussion and take them to the furterst extreme in order to make your case. i.e.
“My question to you would be since you think that promoting Christianity is bad then what would you promote? Drug use? Murder? Alcoholism? Chaos? Survival of the strongest? Rule by dictator?”
Sid has already addressed this fallacy very well but I thought I would reiterate the point. Believeing that promoting Christianity does not mean that you support any of the examples you have given. If you cannot see this then there is no way for you bridge the gap in understanding between us. If you are indeed a true Christian such statements only drive me further away from Christianity. These statements combined with statements like
“I bet you hate the Statue of Liberty and probably think the Boy Scouts are bad.”
shows that you have not considered anything that we have said. It also seems to come across as very condesending. Particullaly when coupled with.
“The bible explains those like Simon and Sidfaiwu in many places but to me a good simple one is Romans 1:22 “Professing themselves to be wise, they became foolsâ€.”
Such a lack of consideration is not something I ever want to adopt and if that is a byproduct of your beliefs. Every time that Sid or someone brings up a valid point for discussion. You seems to address it by stateing extreme view points of what you think we obviously believe. I believe this is called a straw man fallacy. (Sid is probably more capable of explaining what that is than I.) Instead of supporting your view they do the opposite. They show that you have no proper understanding of the points or the ability to support your view point with valid arguments. You condem extreme or fundementalist Christians as not being true Christians. Then you decide you apply the same generalisation that you have taken pains to point out against to all non-christians.
You are right there is hope for me because I realise my mistakes and try to correct them. I am not sure the same can be said of you.
Cheers
Simon Bond
September 19th, 2007 at 4:54 pm
I said: ““I’m still waiting for one, just one, real, acurate, verifiable, not made up, not assumed from some TV show reason that Christianity is dangerous in today’s world.â€
Still waiting……….still waiting……
The lady in the article was pronounced insane by hers and the prosecutor’s psychiatrist…nothing in Christian teaching would have her do any such thing…..quite the opposite……and if you have a problem with that, then just think of it as abortion and then you’ll be able to justify it……still waiting….
“Wow, that’s some serious hedging.” With you guys I have to “hedge” or every time I say show me a picture of a red dog, you’ll show me an Oscar-Meyer instead of an Irish Setter. I will have to admit it’s obvious you guys have done an awful lot of studying and preparation to try and discredit a good thing and you’ve mastered the art of negativity for sure. I bet you hate the Statue of Liberty and probably think the Boy Scouts are bad. America has so many good things in our past and some people get great joy from wanting to destroy anything good that they couldn’t be a part of. I’m sure psychiatrist have a diagnosis for this type thinking. Because it is totally irrational thinking, just like the lady in the story. One would think that the FACT that your thinking is so different from the norm that you would question why?
September 19th, 2007 at 3:19 pm
For the dozenth time, we are not attacking Mr. Vujicic the person, we are criticizing his beliefs and questioning whether Christianity was necessary for him to overcome his particular challenges. Read comments #33 and #44 for further articulation of this point.
“why would you or anyone else consider us [Christians] dangerous.”
Historically:
The Medieval Inquisition
The Spanish Inquisition
The Portuguese Inquisition
The Roman Inquisition
The First Crusade 1096–1099
The Crusade of 1101
The Second Crusade 1147–1148
The Third Crusade 1189–1192
The Fourth Crusade 1200–1204
The Albigensian Crusade
The Children’s Crusade
The Fifth Crusade 1217–1221
The Sixth Crusade 1228–1229
The Seventh Crusade 1248–1254
The Eighth Crusade 1270
The Ninth Crusade 1271–1272
The Northern Crusades (Baltic and Germany)
The Crusade against the Tatars
The Crusades in the Balkans
The Aragonese Crusade
The Alexandrian Crusade
The Hussite Crusade
The Salem Witch Trials
History has a tendency to repeat itself.
“I’m still waiting for one, just one, real, acurate, verifiable, not made up, not assumed from some TV show reason that Christianity is dangerous in today’s world.”
Wow, that’s some serious hedging.
“use Jimmy Swaggart, Jim Baker and the like that hardly any Christians would agree are actually Christians.”
My bet is that you’ll say the exact same thing about every example we provide. See my comment #169 again.
But I’ll try anyway. Here’s one.
Don’t get me wrong, I don’t believe that only evil comes from Christianity. Christians can and do great things. What I have a problem with is the irrational beliefs that one must accept along with the moral teachings. These irrational components can cause some people, like the woman in the linked article, to do horrible things. Why not take the UU approach, and do good works without the belief requirements?
September 19th, 2007 at 2:12 pm
Korgan Says: “I have the benefit of graduate-level study in astrophysics,…”
sidfaiwu Says: “What I’ve decided the best approach to this misconception is to live a visibly virtuous life to the best of my ability and not drape my actions in religious garb(age). I will just let my actions sans beliefs speak for themselves.” (Your actions of attacking a person born with a birth defect who is trying to help others doesn’t speak very highly for you.)
alcari Says: “Instead of Christianity, I would promote reason, science and intelligient, individual thought. All things Christianity doesn’t want, because people thinking for themselves might get the idea that the priests aren’t automatically right.” (Where in the world do you get this stuff? YOU would promote intelligience?)
The Bible Says: Romans 1:22 “Professing themselves to be wise, they became foolsâ€.
alcari, what country are you living in where suffering mothers are denied abortions by Christians????????
sidfaiwu, there is no doubt that people can do good things who aren’t Christian. No argument there. It’s just that the statements that Christianity is dangerous and overwhelmingly Christians do good things that even you would agree are good, why would you or anyone else consider us dangerous. The religous dogma as you described it would amount to a very small part of Christianity compared to the charity. I attend a very small church but even we sponsor missionaries in several foreign countries. Of course their goals are to minister to those who live there but their day to day work is more aimed towards improvements in medicine, farming technics, education, etc…. And every single church I know of does the same. Do athiests? And do the missionaries go to Paris, Rome or other great vacation spots? No, they go to where the poor and needy are suffering and they themselves suffer in many cases. Do athiests?
I’m still waiting for one, just one, real, acurate, verifiable, not made up, not assumed from some TV show reason that Christianity is dangerous in today’s world.
And please don’t use Jimmy Swaggart, Jim Baker and the like that hardly any Christians would agree are actually Christians.
Of these three posts I believe the most inaccurate lines I’ve come across under this topic were written in #168 by alcari where he was describing Christians as being closed minded and not self thinkers. Becoming a Christian requires just the opposite. One has to be very open minded and open hearted to allow Jesus to come in. We are programmed, brain washed or whatever you want to call it from birth to believe that we are our own masters. To go from being a master to humbling oneself to admit that we have no answers, at least to the important things in life takes lots of “soul searching”. And to turn your life over to Jesus is the most individual thing that a person can do. No one else can do it for you. You have to really think for yourself to make this decision.
September 19th, 2007 at 11:19 am
Sid and alcari, your posts actually arrived as I was composing my next one. Glad to be a “fool” alongside you, and here is what I have to say:
boi8726, in regard to your post 166,
Well, at least we hopefully can agree that the stars are fascinating. I have the benefit of graduate-level study in astrophysics, and I also have an active interest in astronomy. However, I am disappointed that you do not grasp just how inadequate, and in so many cases, how far wrong, your bible is as a description and explanation of the universe. Some pointers in that regard are contained in the link in my post 160, but that is just a start.
Now, just to consider one of your earthbound examples ;-), perhaps you have had a bad personal experience with a TV, but we actually do have the demonstrated ability to make TV’s that can last at least decades, and modern display technology has pushed that further. One of the limiting factors is actually in some cases a backlight that can easily be designed to be a cheaply replaceable component. The longevity of a TV or a TV design is now more a question of economic decisions, product management, and broadcast standards politics than engineering or science. Sadly, longevity is rarely a product design goal, but that is a topic for another place. Frankly, I don’t think your question has any merit in regard to making your case for the veracity of your religion and your bible (in fact, it does the opposite), but it does cry for a related question to be asked of you: If, as you believe, man is intelligently designed by a perfect and infinitely capable being, then why do we contain so many design flaws, and why do we not last forever? Must be a pretty pathetic deity, that god of yours.
As for morality, in regard to your questions “since you think that promoting Christianity is bad then what would you promote? Drug use? Murder? Alcoholism? Chaos? Survival of the strongest? Rule by dictator?”, I find a reasoned fair standard to be a far better basis for morality than fear of an invented deity, particularly if that deity is as violent and punitive as described in your bible. I think that the Golden Rule is a far better and more fundamental start than the bible, but that is discussed elsewhere on this site, such as here, and so I won’t make this post even longer by going deeper into that subject. Just search religiousfreaks.com for e.g. “morality” using the site search that Gasmonso provides at the top of the page to see some of the other discussion on that topic.
Cheers,
Korgan
September 19th, 2007 at 9:57 am
Hello boi8726 and Korgan,
I think I understand your thinking, boi8726. It seems as though you equate good with Christian and bad (or evil) with non-Christian. For instance, in rebuttal to “EVERYTHING about Christianity is good, for me and for you and everyone else.” Korgan or I could point out that the numerous Inquisitions were not good for Jews of the day. I suspect that your response would be that they were not true Christians, or that those actions were not from Christianity.
What you’ve really done is a bit of a linguistic trick. The working definition that you have for ‘Christianity’ is ‘all things that are good’ plus ‘belief in the divinity of Jesus’ (or some set of dogma). Also, you equate ‘not-Christian’ with bad, as made obvious by your comment, “you think that promoting Christianity is bad then what would you promote? Drug use? Murder? Alcoholism? Chaos? Survival of the strongest? Rule by dictator?” Of course not.
Herein lies your logical fallacy. ‘Not Christian’ could refer to the negation of one or both of the components of your working definition. In Korgan’s and my own view, we are “not Christian” in the since that we reject the dogma aspects, not the ‘good’ portion. Here it is spelled out in logical terms:
let C = “Christianity”
let G = “all things good”
let D = “set of religious dogma”
C = G and D
not C has three possibilities
not C = not G and not D (your use)
not C = not G and D (what you would call ‘not a true Christian’)
not C = G and not D (our use)
In other words, like yourself, we promote what is morally good but without religious dogma. Unfortunately, in your mind and in the minds of many Christians, the two are not separable. I don’t think many Christians can actually conceive of moral goodness without religious belief. I don’t believe anything any of us could type could convince you otherwise.
What I’ve decided the best approach to this misconception is to live a visibly virtuous life to the best of my ability and not drape my actions in religious garb(age). I will just let my actions sans beliefs speak for themselves.
Korgan,
Thanks for standing up for me. Such efforts, I’m afraid, are in vain. For boi8726, a ‘fool’ is anyone who doesn’t agree with a certain set of religious beliefs. By his definition, since I don’t agree with his religious beliefs, I am a fool. But if that is the definition of ‘fool’, I’m glad to be one. Again, I will let my actions and words represent me and let others judge me as they see fit.
September 19th, 2007 at 9:19 am
@bois, your first post reads “I don’t understand pshysics” so i’m not going to answer that.
“”EVERYTHING about Christianity is good, for me and for you and everyone else. There is nothing to fear. My question to you would be since you think that promoting Christianity is bad then what would you promote?”"
Riight, tell that to the people who will benefit from stemcel therapy, which is being stopped by christianity. Tell it to suffering mothers and children whom christianity denied aborting.
Instead of Christianity, I would promote reason, science and intelligient, individual thought. All things Christianity doesn’t want, because people thinking for themselves might get the idea that the priests aren’t automatically right.
“”Why don’t I see any atheist hospitals “”
because they’re just called Hospitals.
Furhter more, maybe you should check your facts. try going to India and be amazed by the number of Buddhist hospitals you see (Can’t speak for muslim countries.) You also seem to think that christians are somehow more charitable then others, which is just plain not true.
September 19th, 2007 at 8:41 am
Korgan,
I’m not sure what country you’re in, but here in the USA these “dangerous” Christians are responsible for the creation of the vast majority of hospitals. Just here in our little area you’ll find Baptist Hospital, St. Vincent Hospital, St Josephs Hospital, Mercy Hospital, St. Judes and more. They could have chosen to only serve Christians but they don’t. All of their doors are open to everyone even illegals and atheists. Why don’t I see any atheist hospitals or even muslim hospitals? Most of the counseling in our prison system is done by Christian groups………for free. The list goes on and on. These examples alone should make you rethink your “reasoning” and maybe count it as evidence of some power you don’t understand.
It’s for real. I’ve been close to where you are and I’ve been changed and there is nothing about the change that is bad unless you think not having the desire to screw up my life and those who love me as being bad.
September 18th, 2007 at 9:03 pm
Korgan,
“………….because Christian doctrine is in conflict with reason, evidence, and well-tested science.”
After reading your post, I stepped outside, looked at the stars and thought how can anyone believe that something less than me created this? The total of all our reason, evidence and well-tested science can’t begin to explain it. Heck, our “well-tested science” can’t even decide if eggs are a good thing or a bad thing. We can’t even build a TV that will last more than a few years. And I am assuming that you also don’t believe in creation by a superior being because that would fit your MO. You will only see the reason, evidence and well-tested science once you have accepted Jesus. I certainly don’t expect you to believe it otherwise. EVERYTHING about Christianity is good, for me and for you and everyone else. There is nothing to fear. My question to you would be since you think that promoting Christianity is bad then what would you promote? Drug use? Murder? Alcoholism? Chaos? Survival of the strongest? Rule by dictator? Many, if not most, if not all non-Christian nations would have Nick put to death because of his disabilities. Is this what you would have done?
I meant my post the way it sounded. A fool is simply a person with lack of good judgement.
September 18th, 2007 at 5:03 pm
bois8726, in regard to your post 164, which is directed at Brandy but which discusses others here, and I think therefore deserves a response from/regarding others:
First, in regard to what you say “As a Christian, it’s impossible to conceive of any mental state that could possibly make one think of Nick and what he is doing as dangerous.”, my own view is that promoting Christianity is in fact actually dangerous in and of itself, simply because Christian doctrine is in conflict with reason, evidence, and well-tested science. Promoting Christianity is promoting bad decision-making and illogic. Furthermore, the Christian religion itself is even suspect from having “borrowed” concepts from earlier myths and religions; it is clearly manmade and unoriginal, despite claiming otherwise. That all to me is dangerous. I expect that you and I will have to agree to disagree on that point.
Second, I also think that your statement about Simon and Sidfaiwu deserves a response from someone other than them. I don’t know much about Simon, although I find his posts here lately very concise and to the point. However, in Sid’s case, I’ve read a lot of his posts over some months here, and nowhere do I find that he “[professes] to be wise”. Rather, IMO, his posts are matter of fact and well-considered; they are evidence of wisdom, rather than professing it. They are not the posts of a fool. Perhaps you did not mean your post the way it sounds to me.
Cheers,
Korgan
September 18th, 2007 at 4:05 pm
Brandy,
As a Christian, it’s impossible to conceive of any mental state that could possibly make one think of Nick and what he is doing as dangerous. I do however, remember prior to me being saved, of getting some sort of sick pleasure from seeing so called Christians (hypocrites) fail. It made the old statement “misery loves company” relevent in my life at that time. Yet, I still never thought of any Christians as a danger to me like these guys seem to do. I guess it’s because I never felt like anyone was trying to force their religion on me. And ALL true Christians know that that would have reverse consequences and be antiproductive anway so they would NEVER do that.
Just remember there is hope for Simon and Sidfaiwu. We are told that often and I’m sure you, like me, have seen many cases where unbelievers have come to know Jesus and they usually make for really hard working dedicated Christians.
The bible explains those like Simon and Sidfaiwu in many places but to me a good simple one is Romans 1:22 “Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools”.
September 18th, 2007 at 10:22 am
Brandy’s comment is a typical knee-jerk reaction. If she actually read some of the comments, she’d might have noticed that most of us are criticizing Mr. Vujicic’s beliefs, not Mr. Vujicic himself.
I’ll repost a section of one of my previous comments here for Brandy’s convenience, if she ever happens to show up again.
Brandy can also see any of Simon Bond’s or my own comments if she’s interested in discussion. But based on her insult-laden comment, I doubt it.
September 17th, 2007 at 6:23 pm
Howdy all,
Brandy,
“So you become even more bitter and hateful, and not to mention, start saying some pretty STUPID stuff(note:view previous comments~)! ”
From the contents of your post I can surmise that you haven’t read “all” the previous comments, particularly those from myself and other regulars on this site. As you have completely missed the point that most of us where trying to make. So I would suggest before you tell others to view the previous posts, you take the time to read through them all yourself. Now I do realise that there are some trollish posts on here, both from the Christian and non Christian point of view. The overall theme of this discussion is however something along the lines of what I said here.
So before you start passing judgement on everybody that contributes to this site I would suggest that you take the time to read the comments. I would suggest doing this before making generalised statements concerning the merits of the people here and their opinions.
Cheers
Simon Bond
September 17th, 2007 at 5:54 pm
Know what’s REALLY sad? all of you with arms and feet that have nothing better to do in life than bash those who are living it! And living life to the fullest when all of you can only look at him and see no reason for hope and joy… and you all have everything in life that should leave you with no excuse for complaining, and being depressed, and yet you’re empty and upset, and lonely, and searching for something to bring that uncircumstancial joy and someone says, “It’s JESUS!” and you just can’t handle that! So you become even more bitter and hateful, and not to mention, start saying some pretty STUPID stuff(note:view previous comments~)!
Wow, let us, with arms and feet praise self for such a gift, since “Agnostic” believes we deserve such high esteem, and then bash, just like fifth graders,the man without! If this man can praise God, and find that he is nothing without Jesus Christ, than what better place to be! I don’t care if the man has arms or legs, he loves Jesus Christ because Jesus first loved him… in fact Jesus loves you too, yeah, you! And Nick isn’t afraid to share that!
I know you guys probably have nothing better to do since you use all your apparent “wit” and time to bash people like Nick… but evaluate your hearts and lives… what do you live for? Who do you live for? why? what meaning does your life have? do you even care? What good is coming from you? seriously!
September 17th, 2007 at 3:40 pm
Jacqueline, re post 157 “Nowhere in the bible does it say that the earth is flat”
Umm, maybe you want to have a look here for tons of examples from the bible that proclaim a flat earth and/or a geocentric universe.
However, it is further notable that your bible is chock full of self-contradictions, which is what your list vs. the one in the link I have provided simply represent in combination. That alone makes the bible a very questionable document to vest belief in.
September 17th, 2007 at 10:55 am
Hi Alcari,
contrary to your quote below:
“I ask you, if christianity is such as practical religion, bringing Good to the world, why do people have to sit in church every day? Why does god not command all those people in church go work a few hours on sunday and give their money to the poor?”
For your info, God does command us Christians to go out to all the world (the bible also mentioned about China - Sino)and do good and bless the poor and others who need practical (which, in this case, is what Nick Vujicic and countless other Christians have done and are constantly doing). This command is also given to Catholics (which, the famous Mother Theresa is so well known all over the world to have spread her love and help towards countless sick and needy people).
I suggest you read the bible to get a good grasp and knowledge of what it teaches. There are so many modern day examples of rich and influential Christians and Catholics in our MODERN (notice I say modern, cos it’s happening right now in our modern times) time who constantly build orphanages, donate money and basic needs, start schools, have REAL jobs of high social standing (eg AR Bernard - personal adviser to the US parliamentary house, Sun Ho - top international pop star and the music director of 2008 Beijing Olympics, Mel Gibson, F1 racer Lewis Hamilton and many more).
Sun Ho, an international pop singer from Singapore, has been constantly topping the UK top dance charts, topped the Chinese charts in Taiwan, Hong Kong, Singapore, Malaysia and China, and also on several occasions topped the USA dance charts and was even invited to the Miami Winder music conference after her debut release. Now she’s working with top music producers and DJs like Baby face, David Morales and more, and was even commemorated by China on their national postage stamps for doing so much good for the people in China (she build orphanages, schools, gave to the poor in millions of dollars, and was the 1st person to reach Indonesia Arche during the Tsunami disaster under the City Harvest Church community service arm). She has reached into the REAL world and made a real positive impact on people, providing real help instead of those critics. The Chinese government was so proud of her (she is not from China, but from Singapore, which is the far end of the world next to Malaysia) that they gave her free land to build more schools and constructed a MEGA shopping mall in her name, SUN mall.
Who says Christians just sit around in church and do nothing? I myself don’t see myself doing that, and our pastor and the bible do not command us to be just “Sunday Christians”, but says that in whatever we do, we have to excel in our jobs and everything we do and be a blessing unto others. Only when we have the excess money, will we have money to give others and bless others, and no, we Christians do not go begging for money, which is yet another lie. For one, I am a global manager in an multi national company and at the same time I provide counseling to people who are broken (free of charge), and I also give my time to serve as a sound engineer for events or church activities. Occasionally, I also write songs for Chinese pop singers as a freelance song writer. I do not just work a few hours on a Sunday, but work round the clock, according to international timing (be it Asia time, USA timing etc), communicating with international clients, thinking of creative concepts and strategies, marketing & promotions and business acquisitions, spending time hearing out people’s problems etc.
This is to clear up any misconceptions that people have about Christians. We may not publicize out loud the good works that we do, but that doesn’t mean we don’t do anything. And, the bible is not obsolete, nor old fashioned. If you hadn’t noticed, the American legislation is all run on biblical teachings of the law, and so is the money that you use everyday which reads “In God We Trust”. Now, that is one example how God is so applicable in our everyday lives, and, maybe some of you will look at your money in a different light the next time.
September 17th, 2007 at 9:45 am
Jacqueline, re your post 157, and specifically re “in the case of the famous Evolutionist “Charles Darwin†who confessed of his mistake on evolution”:
No, you can’t pull that story off here. That supposed recantation has been dealt with elsewhere, by Darwin’s daughter, who was present at his deathbed. See here for refutations of that and other anti-evolution nonsense. However, as also noted in the above link, even if the story were true, that would not make evolution false!
As the National Geographic noted in a great article “Was Darwin Wrong” several years ago, the evidence in favour of evolution is now overwhelming. It is remarkably well-supported by ready observables.
September 17th, 2007 at 8:50 am
Nowhere in the bible does it say that the earth is flat, in fact, there are several instances which described the earth as round. Here are some verses regarding science and technology, which were written in the bible way before Science and modern medicine came into being.
1) Roundness of the Earth - Isaiah 40:22
2) Vast number of stars - Jeremiah 33:22
3) Vital importance of blood in life processes - Leviticus 17:11
4) Atmospheric circulation - Ecclesiastes 1:6
5) Gravitational field - Job 26:7
6) The suspension of the Earth in space - Job 26:7
7) The circulation of the atmosphere - Ecclesiastes 1:6
8) The chemical nature of flesh - Genesis 2:7
9) The re-circulation of water - Ecclesiastes 1:7
10) The surprising amount of water that can be held in the sky as condensation in clouds - Job 26:8
11) The invention of the micro bio-data chip which is implanted into the forehead of a person for ID purposes - Revelation
I wonder where in the bible did some of you critics read which contradicts all the above said verses, about the earth being described as flat etc? Before making any criticisms or starting a debate, why not do some reading up on the bible 1st?
I studied ancient Chinese history as well, especially on “Nuwa”, the famous philosophers “Confucius” and his disciple “Mensus” and it is interesting to note that “Nuwa” was in fact “Noah” from the bible, and the famous global flood was recorded during the same period stated in the bible (in China), stating Mount Ararat as the “landing destination” for the Ark/ship. Mensus (in China) also predicted the coming of the Messiah (Jesus Christ) 500 years before Jesus came into the world, stating his predicted date exactly on the day of Jesus’ birthday.
Well, I know that critics will always find ways and means to refute these historical truth and facts, just like how Scientists in the past had tried to. However, those Scientists had to eat back their words when the truth eventually revealed itself (as in the case of the famous Evolutionist “Charles Darwin” who confessed of his mistake on evolution in his book).
September 17th, 2007 at 8:50 am
Hello Laura,
“…everyday communication with human animal life in the expression of: music & art (for no survival/physical life purpose”
Actually music and art do have survival value. Just ask any band member or artist with even small amounts of success how often they get laid. That sounds like a reproductive advantage to me!
As for the rest of your comment, instead of repeating myself, I simply refer you to my response to another spiritualist who mistakenly misused scientific terminology. Just follow the link.
September 15th, 2007 at 12:28 am
I cannot believe that so many people confuse “religion” with spirituality, i.e., acknowledgment / recognition of a master creator force (male, female, neuter, white, black, definitely not a physical human animal, not Santa Claus)
whose laws are only pure physics (including Quantum physics);
and language: mathematics;
and everyday communication with human animal life in the expression of: music & art (for no survival/physical life purpose, such as the spider’s web (including human profit/power motives),
and giving enlightenment/knowledge/word with regard to foresee and have concern one’s physical demise.
This is not a put down, and I do not know that much. I spend my life shedding man-made religious and other indoctrinations as well as as much of my human ego as I can, to always seek Truth.
I truly believe we should all study in depth quantum physics and the grand unification theory; energy sources and dimensions that our crude 5 or however many animal senses cannot perceive — and not assume that we are so damned smart and superior — much like humans of the past.
At least this fellow is trying to seek the truth without condemnation of anyone, and devoted to inspiring others to seek God — not religion, necessarily.
Well, only a few can give up their own massive egos, self will, sense of brain superiority, competitiveness, and . . . all the crap they have experienced in their physical lives, to truly leave the baggages behind and seek the ultimate TRUTH, even while knowing that they may never find or understand it fully while living in an animal body on this earth.
Laura
P.S. I believe when God/Energy Source/whatever you want to call it, him, her — created us in its own image, we were created as energy or spiritual beings — not animal beings. I suspect that came from “eating the apple from the tree of knowledge” of the physical animals we were supposed to have dominion over. Probably the spiritual creations entering animal bodies to experience the pleasures of sex, eating food to a full stomach, whatever, without regard to physical pain and death.
September 15th, 2007 at 12:20 am
People like u guys above who have pitied or made sarcastic remarks about Nick should really get yr arms chopped off and see whether u will wallow in self-pity or live life to the fullest like he does. You ought to be ashamed of yourselves. If I can just see u now, I will come after you with a sawing machine. Simply immature people!
September 14th, 2007 at 9:47 am
Alcari, re 152, “The matrix has youâ€: brilliant.
:-)
September 14th, 2007 at 8:35 am
“” Do you know where you are going when you die? “”
Go? you don’t ‘go’ anywhere. The brain shuts down, your thoughts stop. Sentience ends.
“”Are you afraid to die? “”
No, though I would preferr to continue living for a while.
“”Is this life really all that you are living for and your purpose is???”"
Yes it is. I do find it amusing that all christians seem to need a purpose. Why is that? Are you to afraid to find your own way in life? Are you not capable of dealing with reality as it, and do you want to be led by hand? Can’t you simply face facts and realise that you DO NOT have a ‘purpose’?
“”What about peace, peace that surpasses all understanding, do you have peace? “”
I’ve never been happier sinse I gave religion the boot. I have two counter quotes for you, the first from Thomas Gray: “Ignorance is bliss”
The second a bit more modern: “The matrix has you”
September 13th, 2007 at 5:53 pm
Howdy all,
Teresa I will answer some of your questions. I don’t think you will understand them however. I also don’t think you have read all the posts as alot of your questions I have explained already. If you want more detail to my answers please read through my earlier posts.
1: Do you know where you are going when you die?
No. (Depends where the wife decides to bury me)
2. Are you afraid to die?
No.
3. Is this life really all that you are living for and your purpose is???
Yes and To do the best I can with what I have. (A full answer to the last part of your question could take a lifetime to answer)
4. What about peace, peace that surpasses all understanding, do you have peace?
Yes.
So there is very little difference between us as far as our feeling of spiritual well being and I did not need a God to get there.
Cheers
Simon Bond
September 13th, 2007 at 4:26 pm
Teresa,
I find your own post rather funny, so perhaps you could answer the following questions:
1. Since you seem to be taking Pascal’s Wager, how do you know that the particular god that you are placing your bet on is the correct one, versus the many others that are out there for other believers (the many Greek gods, the Zarathustran god, and so many more)?
2. On a related note to my first question, given all the evidence that Christianity has borrowed many of its tenets from prior religions and myths (virgin birth, purity, etc. etc.), and that modern science is at odds with Christianity on so many fronts, on what evidence do you base your Christian faith (or are you just taking a gamble, such as you seem to also be saying)?
3. If it is a gamble that you are taking, then how do you think the god that you believe in is going to react to your feigned belief, versus to a sincere belief, or, for that matter, to a sincere non-belief?
4. Peace is very hard to ascribe to many religions, and particularly to yours, based on Christian and Muslim violence that I and many others have experienced, and as is prescribed in the bible itself. The Christian bible is also a very violent document. Exactly what are these “blessings” that you speak of, beyond “peace”, and what proof do you have that you will receive them?
5. How is it that you yourself are not “being judgmental of those that choose to believe differently”, in your first statement?
Thanks,
Korgan
September 13th, 2007 at 2:45 pm
It stikes me kind of funny to read all of these comments from people that don’t believe in God. Do you know where you are going when you die? Are you afraid to die? Is this life really all that you are living for and your purpose is??? What about peace, peace that surpasses all understanding, do you have peace? There are so many blessings for those who believe in God… and we know that in all things God works together for the good of those who love Him, who have been called according to His purpose. I choose to believe and live for God, and live with the peace and joy that I have during trials… you know finding joy in all things. And I love that God has given me the ability to supernaturally love and pray for all of those, even those that don’t believe. I find it a much better place…I love being a follower of Christ and having a relationship with Him. I would rather find out when I am gone that I am wrong in my beliefs and have a purposeful life rather than live with bitterness, anger and simply being critical and being judgmental of those that choose to believe differently. God is good. Praying that you seek His face before it is too late. He is waiting.
September 11th, 2007 at 6:43 pm
que mal que este haci pobre, el tiene sus valores para seguir viviendo es un gran hombre que mal que este haci
se que el señor lo protege que dios lo vendiga….
September 10th, 2007 at 10:15 am
Hello Jacqueline,
I think you missed the point of some of our criticism. We are not criticizing the actions of Mr. Vujicic (except, perhaps his preaching) but his beliefs. We are also questioning the notion that Mr. Vujicic couldn’t have achieved these things without Christianity.
“Christianity is not a religion, it is a relationship with God.”
I’ve been seeing statements like this from Christians with increasing frequency. What’s the motivation behind it? Is it a subtle attempt at subversion of the First Amendment? “The government can legislate Christianity since it’s not a religion!” Has the word ‘religion’ acquired a negative connotation and Christians are seeking for a euphemism?
Religion is defined as “a strong believe in a supernatural power that guides and takes an interest in human destiny.” If you believe in God to such an extent that you have a “relationship” with God, That qualifies as a strong belief in a supernatural power etc. Thus, given your definition, Christianity is a religion.
September 10th, 2007 at 8:34 am
“”So many of today’s motivational speakers and books (secular, non Christian books) have their roots in Christian principles, like discipline, order, time-management, non procrastination etc.”"
And by that you mean of course “Christian principles have their roots in universal values and generally Good Things.
Or would you rather say that there was no disciple and order before christianity?
You, as many religious people before you, make the assumption that one cannot be good to others if he does not believe in the judeo-christian god. That’s just wrong, anyone with eyes can see that.
I ask you, if christianity is such as practical religion, bringing Good to the world, why do people have to sit in church every day? Why does god not command all those people in church go work a few hours on sunday and give their money to the poor?
In an extreme case, one could even reason that Nick’s actions are completely selfish, that he does them only to ensure a place in heaven.
September 10th, 2007 at 8:06 am
Sorry, there was a type error previously. It should be actions, not works, still the same meaning though.
The idiom “actions speak louder than words†still holds true and strong today. Common sense tells us that anything that benefits others is good, and anything that causes harm to others is bad.
Nick, through his religion, Christianity, has done so much good for so much (I don’t use many as the number is uncountable) people around the world, regardless of their religion. He has a double degree and holds multiple jobs not just for himself, but uses what he is blessed with to bless others. He has also encouraged and provided tangible, real help to suicidal teens and other disabled people, and many more able-bodied people and turned their life around. He showed no prejudice or biasness towards Christians or non-Christians, he treated everyone the same. How many of you who just sit back and freely criticize can say that you have achieved the same level of great and good works in your life?
Christianity is not a religion, it is a relationship with God. Christianity is also a demonstration of lifestyle (a life of love and discipline), which is not obsolete, but still very applicable in today’s context. So many of today’s motivational speakers and books (secular, non Christian books) have their roots in Christian principles, like discipline, order, time-management, non procrastination etc. Nick has experienced the genuine love of his Father God, and with all his heart, wants others to be happy and experience joy. What people see is the love that he shows (which God has shown Nick and with the excess of love, Nick is able to give to others too), which is contagious in a good way. Christian teaching is very practical, it teaches that if you don’t have something (eg, love, money etc), you can’t give. You can only give when you have more than what you need, and that God can bless you with that. Nick is truly blessed with abundance in wealth and love, and his love has in turn blessed so much others who go around blessing more people around them. His unwavering spirit, demeanor, hard work, amazing strength, and abundance in love is proof to all.
September 10th, 2007 at 8:05 am
The idiom “works speak louder than words” still holds true and strong today. Common sense tells us that anything that benefits others is good, and anything that causes harm to others is bad.
Nick, through his religion, Christianity, has done so much good for so much (I don’t use many as the number is uncountable) people around the world, regardless of their religion. He has a double degree and holds multiple jobs not just for himself, but uses what he is blessed with to bless others. He has also encouraged and provided tangible, real help to suicidal teens and other disabled people, and many more able-bodied people and turned their life around. He showed no prejudice or biasness towards Christians or non-Christians, he treated everyone the same. How many of you who just sit back and freely criticize can say that you have achieved the same level of great and good works in your life?
Christianity is not a religion, it is a relationship with God. Christianity is also a demonstration of lifestyle (a life of love and discipline), which is not obsolete, but still very applicable in today’s context. So many of today’s motivational speakers and books (secular, non Christian books) have their roots in Christian principles, like discipline, order, time-management, non procrastination etc. Nick has experienced the genuine love of his Father God, and with all his heart, wants others to be happy and experience joy. What people see is the love that he shows (which God has shown Nick and with the excess of love, Nick is able to give to others too), which is contagious in a good way. Christian teaching is very practical, it teaches that if you don’t have something (eg, love, money etc), you can’t give. You can only give when you have more than what you need, and that God can bless you with that. Nick is truly blessed with abundance in wealth and love, and his love has in turn blessed so much others who go around blessing more people around them. His unwavering spirit, demeanor, hard work, amazing strength, and abundance in love is proof to all.
September 6th, 2007 at 3:16 pm
Keep up the good work nick and dont let the devel get you down. There is relly no such thing as people that dont believe, just wait till they are hanging from a cliff by two fingers you know who they will be calling on.I would love to have you on my team any time. The RA Man
September 6th, 2007 at 6:16 am
You’re almost correct.
As i’ve said before, I have no problem with people who practise their religion. I have a problem when people when they start bothering me with it, and start forcing it to other people as “the truth.”
Also, I don’t think humanities goal is happyness. I think, as derived from above statement, it’s happyness for all.
September 5th, 2007 at 4:15 am
The law of nature says, that the human goal is to reach happiness. There are many routes to accomplish that. And the correct path is the one that has been taken by the person that is happy right now. So, if nicks path is christianity, and that helps him get up every morning and struggle to life, then christianity is the best religion ever (for him)…..
Hi, I’m a roman catholic, raised in a mexican family which you can call conservative, even so i don’t practice any of my religion.
The thing here is that every person that is in pain, emotional, fisical, etc,..needs of a superior power to overcome it. Call it jesus, or allah, or whatever.
From personal experience, i’ve tried to overcome painful things on my own, and its, impossible, you definetly need some kind of spiritual guide to overcome those situations.
If nick didn’t hang on to something that works for him (christian religion), then he would of probably commited suicide as we all know he tried to several times.
For better or for worse he found something that still keeps him alive.
This is not about creating a huge debate on who has the correct answer. Because this forum can immediatly be closed, as soon as I tell you that you are all correct on your opinion, because its what has worked for you all!!!
If the christian religion worked for Nick, then he is correct.
If the muslim girls need to cover there faces to prevent evil temptations, well good for them, it works for them.
If you need to read the bible every night to feel at peace, then congratulations!!! It works for you!!!
If hangin’ on the conservative side has help you out and you feel happy with your life, then you’ve got the correct answer, you just won this debate!!!
Any person in this forum that feels, jealous of nick, or slightly not happy with his life, then try to change your path, cause youve got the wrong opinion , because it’s definetly not leading you to human nature’s ultimate goal, which is happyness.
WHATEVER WORKS FOR YOU IS CORRECT!
September 4th, 2007 at 2:50 pm
One thing I think we can all agree on is, there are no athiests in Hell.
September 3rd, 2007 at 6:45 pm
Howdy all,
“As an Atheist I do believe the Dictionary’s meaning (Webster’s New Collegiate)states “one who denies Godâ€
is an example of a belief. Is that not a hypocrisy in itself.”
The dictionary meaning of hypocrisy according to the American Heritage Dictionary is:
1. The practice of professing beliefs, feelings, or virtues that one does not hold or possess; falseness.
2. An act or instance of such falseness.
I don’t understand how stating that I am an atheist and not believing in God is hypocrisy. I’m afraid you will need to explain to me exactly how being an atheist is in and of itself a form of hypocrisy.
“I know that what boi8726 says is the Truth.”
I’m pretty sure there are people who would claim that they “know there is no God and that is the truth”.
“Don’t you think that above all other things that God created isn’t it strange that humankind is the only creature able to reason?”
I don’t find it that strange. I can think of a number of possibilities leading to this result. I am also not convinced that other creatures do not have the ability to reason in at least some way. There are many examples of other creatures being capable of problem solving. This suggest at least some level of reasoning. Perhaps we need to dfine a stricter definition of exactly what you mean by reasoning in this case.
“Instinct is only given to the nonsensient creatures who do not reason except to survive.”‘
I also don’t believe this to be true. Human’s do appear to have instincts. Built in responses of fight or flight ect that can be used to survive. Eyelids that snap shut when something threatens to damage the eye.
I afraid your post comes accross as preaching rather than providing an argument. You talk about God giving meaning to life ect. I can counter by saying that I have meaning in my life and I did not require a God to provide it for me. I don’t feel like I am lacking anything. I also value my doubt highly and believe that I would be missing something vital without it.
“Always searching for something means we are lacking something and and can you really afford to play the “what if we go to hell if we don’t chooseâ€?”
I believe that always searching for something means that we have realised a vital truth not that we are lacking something. The instant you stop searching you lose the ability to realise your mistakes, at least in my opinion. As for the “what if we go to hell” argument, see my post #135 where I provide some of my reasoning on why this argument is a fallacy.
I don’t think you have provided any solid arguments supporting your point of view here. Your post comes accross to me as mere preaching rhetoric rather than a well thought out argument representing you point of view.
Cheers
Simon Bond
September 3rd, 2007 at 11:38 am
So tell me Simon Bond
As an Atheist I do believe the Dictionary’s meaning (Webster’s New Collegiate)states “one who denies God”
is an example of a belief. Is that not a hypocrisy in itself. No disrespect intended but you seem to struggle with the guidelines for the reasoning of right and wrong. I know that what boi8726 says is the Truth. I have wandered and wondered like you and I was raised in a religious home. Some of the reasonings of right and wrong I found to be created right inside of us as the Bible states “God created us in his own image”. Don’t you think that above all other things that God created isn’t it strange that humankind is the only creature able to reason? Instinct is only given to the nonsensient creatures who do not reason except to survive. God calls on us to “Live” a true meaningful life. Take Nic as an example and truly look at his testimony. Many more people can testify to the exsistence of God to deny His existence is to deny yourself true Life. If you seem to find yourself still philosophizing the meaning of life could that not mean you struggle with a God shaped hole in your heart. Always searching for something means we are lacking something and and can you really afford to play the “what if we go to hell if we don’t choose”?
August 27th, 2007 at 10:51 pm
Simon,
I appreciate your comments and your very logical explaination of your thinking. But most of all, I appreciate your willingness to keep searching. I was there at one time myself and I know it can be extremely confusing in light of all the options.
I am very tolerable of others beliefs but that won’t stop me from trying to do everything I can to see that everyone I can hears the Good News. The bible teaches us that all will not come to know Jesus but we are to try. We also know that we can’t force anyone to accept Him so we won’t hold a gun to anyones head either. But, the bible teaches us that ALL who open up their hearts and call on His name WILL be saved. If you can do that, I’ll guarantee you that you will feel His presents and your life will be forever changed. It’s something you can do lying in the comfort of your own bed. The key though is the open heart.
I am not inhibited by my beliefs in any way. What good is a persons beliefs if one doesn’t believe it’s the only one that’s correct? If one believes that it is not the correct system, then it’s not a belief at all but merely an opinion. If I had never had a personal experience with God, then I would still be searching. But once I did, it’s absolute. And then it’s very easy to see that others are wrong. I know, I know, others will say the same thing. Jesus is the only God of any religion that ever came to earth and lived and proved that he is God. All other religions are based on prophets, idols, etc.
Since you are searching, I would challenge you to look into all religions, do whatever it is that they say will make you a believer and then see what works. Not to try and be arrogant, Lord knows that would have the opposite result that I hope for you, but I know what the solution will be.
Admittedly, I am a little bewildered as to how we got here from those being critical of Nick. But it has been a good discussion and I’m sorry to anyone whom I may have offended by any of my comments. I just hope and pray for the best for everyone on here.
August 27th, 2007 at 10:41 pm
Howdy all again,
Sorry about the double post.
Boris, inresponse to your question “Simon, thanks for your service and your explaination of some of your thinking. I’m always encouraged when an atheist is at least in search of their purpose as opposed to those that won’t even look, listen, and learn. Very nicely written. The only thing that really bothers me since you seem to have fairly normal morals is if you are an atheist, then what do you use as a measure of right vs wrong. As Christians, we have a book of instructions to get us in the right direction but it’s up to us to make the right turns. So how do you moraly determine that thievery is wrong when in the basics of nature the biggest and strongest gets the girls, food and whatever they want. What keeps you from having this same attitude?”
The difference between right and wrong is a question that I struggled with for a long time. I won’t go into how I arrived where I have but detail some of the concepts I use when considering my morals. Whilst Survival of the fitest is a observable phenominon in nature I don’t think it is a valid model on which to base your morals. I like to think of it as instinct over thought. I also believe that every situation must be considered on its on merits beofre deciding what is the moral course of action. I find it hard to accpet the concept that there are any hard and fast rules or instructions that can cover all posible situations that one may find oneself forced to deal with. Firstly when deciding whether an action is moral I like to consider what I intend to achieve with this action. Is it merely to get back at someone or am I attepting to find a soloution that is the least disruptive, or even better mutually benificial. I also like to consider what effect my actions will have on others, both those involved and those that are not. Will these people consider my actions positive or negative. Will I cause some form of hardship. I try to consider what other peoples point of view is and wether I would feel the same in their place. Would I consider my actions moral from their viewpoint. I like to give people the benifit of the doubt if I can. Mayby they are having a bad day, mayby they don’t understand my point of view ect.
I think the question naturally leads into why bother having morals at all if this life has no meaning. I believe this is the only life that I have, therfore it is everything to me and I wish to use it in the best possible way. I have empathy for my fellow human beings. I see how other peoples actions affect me and realise that my actions have consequences for others as well as my self. Mayby my life doesn’t mean much in the larger picture but I will leave it knowing that I tried to do the right thing and hopefully exert a positive influence on the world.
I hope that in some way answers your question.
Cheers
Simon Bond
August 27th, 2007 at 7:41 pm
Howdy all,
bois8726, the what if senario you propose only works if you make the assumption that there are only two options. Either you are right or I am right. There are a large number of other possibilities out there that ivalidate the worst case senario you propose for yourself. As I Are says what if the Jews are right, the Buddists, Islam, Hindu, Wicca, The Railians, the JW’s or the Mormans. This is also an incomplete list. Some of these belief systems would see both of us spending eternity in hell. So your worst case senario is the same as mine. Your beliefs do not protect you from the posibility from a just in case point of view. The way I see it is, as there is so many options to choose from I cannot (and will not) base my beliefs on a just in case philosophy. There are two many options that the chances of picking the right one based soely on that concept is slim. My beliefs are based on the information I currently have, some deep searching within my self and lots and lots of thinking about the issue. There does appear to be one difference between us though. I don’t believe that I have it all figured out. I continue to search, think and look for answers. You have accpeted a belief system that inhibits (in my opinion) your ability to question the nature of your existence.
“What if you’re wrong? You lived a life without meaning and you spend eternity, forever, suffering so severely that as the bible says you’ll be weeping and gnashing of teeth. No one wants that for you or anyone else especially if you have friends and relatives who care about you now and for eternity.”
There are a few points I would like to address in what you propose here. As I don’t believe I have the full answer and at best merely am moving in the right direction, I