For those of you with HBO, they just released a brand new documentary by Alexandra Pelosi called Friends of God. Pelosi takes the audience on an unbelievable journey throughout the magical red-states of America where reality ceases to exist and unicorns roam free.
In this jaw-dropping clip, you bare witness to the insanity that is Buddy Davis and his Answers in Genesis Children’s Workshop. It is here that children are taught the facts of life. Children are taught that Jesus roamed the earth with dinosaurs and the Grand Canyon was created in a flash flood.
Now most of us have heard this all before. But what I find interesting here is the clear indoctrination of these children into a world where you don’t trust what you can see, hear, and touch. They are taught to trust the supposed word of God because the Bible is the history book of the universe.
Watch how clever Buddy Davis is in making evolution sound ridiculous. He uses goofy pictures and catchy songs to get these kids on board. Not once does he use reason, logic, or evidence to make his point. He is what all successful evangelists are. They are simply suave individuals with the gift of gab. They remind me in many ways of car salesmen.
I’ll be honest when I say that this video angered me. These parents are raising a generation of idiots and that troubles me. Look at the mother about two minutes into the video. Oh my God! I love her reasoning of why she believes in creationism. What a damn fool.
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Thanks sidfaiwu. You will have noticed that I only defended internal consistency. If I did establish an external foundation for the claim but the claim itself was incoherent it would be equally invalid. So my reasoning was not circular as far as it went. Many claims agaisnt the Bible (and Christian theology) are aimed at internal coherence and truth claims, and many are made against its foundations. These can be argued independently to a degree as many arguments against Christianity on this site are but are often confused.
I only argued that if the theistic God exists, he exists necessarily and certain things would thereby obtain including his ability to communicate and of course his ability to intervene in his universe. So the ideas of revelation and miracle are moot once one grants theism.
I for one would not argue as your religio
Hey Neando,
“I for one would not argue as your religio”
That’s the problem with these types of dialogs. They are great at clearly expressing one’s own position, but often misrepresent others’ opinions. My guess is you would disagree with Religio’s claim “It’s [the Bible's] very consistency demonstrates that its true.” Thus it ended up being a straw man. Oh well. It was fun writing it :)
The clarification of your post helps. I now understand that you were defending Christianity from a charge of inconsistency, not trying to prove Christianity correct because of consistency. Sorry for the misunderstanding.
Sid, I would add that internal consistency is necessary for truth but not sufficient. I believe that correspondence with reality must be reasonably established. The map ought to be testable against the terrain at crucial points.
Even Darwin declared that his Theory of Evolution was just that, a Theory. He proposed that if the so-called “missing Links” (dirty great big holes in the Theory) that exist in Evolution were not found over the next couple hundred years (which have now past) then it would mean that his Theory was wrong! Don’t take my word for it read Darwin’s works, and when you fill yourself with the dead fruit that he himself has by his own words proved it to be, then do yourself a favour and actually think for yourselves, sit down in a quite place, try to remove the pre-determined negativities that you may hold towards the Bible (possible from the indoctrination of your parents/schooling etc) and spend sometime actually reading it. It can be argued that Humans have spent more energy trying to disprove God and the Bible (and particularly Jesus) that anything else. But guess what, the more humankind tries to disprove the truths contained within the Bible the more they find themselves confronted with the truth. After all, Science cannot disprove God because the basis of Science is proof of things that can be seen. The contradiction in Science though is that they accept the existence of the wind even though you cannot see the wind, only its affects and they accept the concept of love but again they cannot prove its existence only its impact. Look around you, you may not see Gods face but you can see His creation. Why is it that most reasonable thinking people would argue that it would be impossible for a million separate parts of a 747 Jumbo Jet to be magically put together (and be a plane that is fully functional) as the result of an explosion at the Boeing hanger, but those same people would deem it perfectly reasonable that the whole Universe in all its magnificence was created in such a way? Just open your mind to the possibility that there may be a creator out there that is more powerful than yourself. That however takes humility. It is far easier to believe that we are “master” of our own destiny.
carl, do a little bit of research and youll find a lot of people have used the exact same arguements that you have, and been shown either wrong or just stupid. im really asking you to do research, not to prove your wrong, but so youll get a better understanding of all the information available. Id like to hear about what you find.
G’day, I’d be glad to do the research that shows these arguments to be disproved if you care to supply me with the references. I agree with you the arguments I have put forward have been used before. After all Soloman in the Old Testiment said that there is nothing new under heaven. I’ts all been done before. However, having said that the arguments I have borrowed are useful because they are factual not theoretical. They have been used but never disproved by science. If you can enlighten me with such evidence I would be more than happy to read it. After all, the Relationship I and one or two others have with Jesus is one not based on blind faith but one based on independant historical evidence. If you care to share your independant references I will likewise pass on the mountains of evidence that exists outside of the Gospels. I might add, the “Independant” evidence I suggest you might care to read what was written by Jewish and Roman historians of repute who had nothing to gain and every thing to lose from reporting what they saw and experienced. Likewise, can you honestly tell me that thousands of people (including many of the remaining 11 deciples) would willingly have themselves put to death rather than renounce the divinity of Jesus if they themselves had not witnessed the death and resurrection of Jesus. Yes, an argument could be put forward that the 11 deciples may have had something to gain out of continuing the deception of the Divinity of Jesus (if that is what it was) but for Deciples such as Peter continuing the “lie” to the point of being crucified himself and for the likes of Paul to also be killed when all he had to do was fess up to it all being a con, beggers belief. No, Peter, Paul and thousands experienced and witnessed the events which ultimatly led them to going to their own deaths rather than denying the truth. Only a madman (or thousands of mad men/women) would go to that extreme. Yes, again a well used argument, but once more an argument that many have tried to disprove but have failed. Again, if you have proof to the contrary, please pass on the references.
“Why is it that most reasonable thinking people would argue that it would be impossible for a million separate parts of a 747 Jumbo Jet to be magically put together”
This isn’t how evolution works at all…
Carl, I’d suggest checking out the new evolution 101 thread. I believe it was made for people like yourself. Every argument you’ve made has previously been covered, and you clearly don’t understand evolution. It’s not a crime or anything… and I don’t mean do be a dick, but you don’t. I’d suggest looking at some of the references made in the thread I mentioned. If you want to make your arguments (one at a time) there, I or someone better suited, will offer an explanation.
THINKING OF A NEW EARTH CREATIONIST
The Missing Links Episode
Creationist: Between species A and B we have a large gap in the fossil record.
A————————-B
Thus evolution is false.
Darwinist: We have just discovered a previously unknown species in the fossil record, we call it species C. It is a transition species between A and B.
A—————–C——-B
Creationist: Now you have TWICE as many gaps as before! Evolution is now even LESS true.
Darwinist: *sigh*
@Sidfaiwu: I couldn’t have put it better myself.
@Carl: I find that using a 2,000 year old collection of manuscripts of often dubious origin and poor translation as evidence against current, logical arguments backed by decades of solid, testable science a poor method of attack.
You want to prove the dinosaurs lived side by side with humans? How about the earth being thousands of years old instead of billions? Show me something other that the writings of people who thought earth to be the center of the universe. Prove carbon dating wrong in a repeatable, undeniable experiment. Show fossil records of man and dinosaur co-existing with some verifiable method of dating. Otherwise you don’t have a leg to stand on in this debate.
As to the Bible’s veracity, there were many others who claimed that Christ was simply a Prophet. Their record contradicted what the church decided was official dogma and were left out. Further, the books that made it were not written by Christ’s contemporaries and are third hand accounts at best. Outside of the New Testament the only record of the man we call Jesus is a mention of his birth by the record keeper Josephus.
Add to that it was translated hundreds of times, each time adding or leaving out whatever the patron commissioning the translation desired, often deleting entire books. Other things were added to justify the crimes of kings and Popes. The versions we have today are the bastard descendants of an original record long lost to the greed and lust for power of men.
People go to their deaths every day defending the Prophet Mohamed but I’m willing to bet you wouldn’t. Don’t those people have the same level of dedication to their myth as Paul? So what makes their record less true? Just because idiots are willing to die for something does not make it true.
damnit you all beat me to it, hopefully carl will actually read it
Thanks DeusExMichael, but I cannot take full credit for it. I first heard a version of this from Michael Shermer, founder of the Skeptics Society, of which I am a member, speaker, and author of Why Darwin Matters: The Case Against Intelligent Design, The Science of Good and Evil: Why People Cheat, Gossip, Care, Share, and Follow the Golden Rule, and How We Believe: The Search for God in an Age of Science, among many others.
I am a minister who fully believes the Bible to be the Word of God. There are many things that we can’t understand and I think that many people try to hard to make the wondrous works of God fit into a tiny box that my human mind can understand. I think it VERY sad and dangerous to teach simply evolution or creationism. There is a place for evolution within the story of creation. Because God created time for us, we don’t know how long a “day” in was for God. I salute those who work hard to use the science to prove God and vice versa. I hope that you all will not bracket all Christians into a this group. There are many of us who are dedicated to fixing things like this that are corrupting our churches.
Dancin’ with Jesus,
Dousmile4jesus
Hello dousmile4jesus,
Many of us know people like you are out there, trying to reclaim Christianity’s (especially Protestantism’s) liberal roots. I just wish your voices where a lot louder. We’re having trouble hearing you over the Jerry Falwells and Anne Coulters of the world.
I think almost all of us want a plurality of beliefs so that our ideas can be shared. What we don’t like is the lack of acceptance of non-Christians prevalent in the US. We also don’t like the privileged status that religions receive. We want to end the social pressure to respect everyone’s beliefs. Everyone should respect everyone else’s right to believe what ever they want, but not the beliefs themselves.
Do you really beleve all of this…?
It is real FUN, you are my personal “Stand Up Comedians”
Applause and thanks to you all!!!
Still laughing.
Amen sidfaiwu.
dousmile4jesus, we welcome open minds with open arms here. Pardon us when we bristle at those spouting Falwellesque rhetoric and extremist right-wing nonsense.
I personally used to use a similar explanation to the one you use to meld my Christian beliefs to my scientific knowledge. In my case I one day realized my rationalization to explain my beliefs could not truly hold up to the light of scientific scrutiny. It was then that my faith in God died and I realized that blindly believing something with no proof is in fact less a virtue and more a vice. When I was honest with myself I realized my beliefs were a product of years of indoctrination, not of any “Holy Spirit”.
In closing, we welcome you and all willing to speak with an open mind and rational argumentation. As sidfaiwu said, we respect your right to believe anything you want, not necessarily the belief itself, and only ask the same from those who post here.
America is becoming a nation of idiots.
Some lunatics are happy to see nuclear explotions in NY just because in their crazy minds that is the apocalypsis and the arrive of god.
This is disturbing for the rest of the world, every day is more importan to enforce law to avoid another insane man like Bush in the White House, for the best interest of the american citizens and the hole world.
Good Look.
The girl at the end says that, the journalist(believe in evolution) has not been reading the fact good enough. The only thing the girl had ever read i the bible! one book that is many thousands years old, which is factless besides all scientists today! who is it who have not read the facts well! :D
I almost couldn’t stand to watch the entire video as short as it was. People proclaim that every word in the Bible is literally true but they conveniently ignore the contradictions that leap from the page to the eyes of the truly enlightened!
People eat shrimp, they eat pork, etc,etc,etc when the good book explicitly prohibits such. What hypocrites they are!
I have three simple requests of all creationists: If you truly feel that evolution doesn’t have any basis in reality, then you must never:
1) Go see a modern physician. Modern biology is founded upon evolutionary theory and the Germ Theory of Disease. You are free to go see witch doctors and faith healers at will (faith healing, by the way, has been demonstrated to be a function of biofeedback at the neural/immune system interface, discovered in the 1990′s).
2) Do not use a computer. It is built upon elements which include quaantum mechanics, also a “theory.”
3) Breed. It involves using the genetic code, which Gregor Mendel first discovered, Watson and Crick explained, and Darwin postulated (a “mechanism of inheritance”).
I make these requests because for Creationists to do otherwise would make them hypocrites. No one wants to be a hypocrite.
Kind of like this one:
http://www.wellingtongrey.net/miscellanea/archive/2007-05-20–when-im-king.html
But I totally support creationists not breeding, that might solve some problems.
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Cudos for this mockumentary. I too went through a ‘deprogramming’ of sorts as I finished undergraduate school and on into grad school and into life in general, seeing much of the world through various work projects. I eventually was compelled to abandon the church teachings which leverage off of people being cocooned into a closed culture, with restricted information, imbued with myth and social pressure. It was a painful experience as well, to release these childhood taught fables, for scientific fact.
However, I have also, in my studies and travels seen that – the world is also NOT simply a bunch of material items from the periodic table. Something IS afoot here, beyond the physical, well documented, and I refuse to jump from the religion on one end of the spectrum and headlong into the pseudo-scientific materialist religion on the other end of the spectrum. Those types are cocooned and myth imbued just as badly. And have no conscience at forcing their religion on everyone else either.
I opted to not join that church either.
Servio, way to not understand how science works. At all. Either that, or you are wilfully misrepresenting it, which would make you a liar.
In science, there is no belief required. Question everything. In religion, since there has never been any evidence presented, all you have is belief.
Well, you didn’t opt for your stupidity. You were born with it. Sucks to be you, and you suck.
Yes Carl. There is nothing new under the sun. That there ancient internet is the same one we’re using today. And how ’bout God’s iPhone! What a miracle that it runs on Angel poop & unicorn farts.
i am brought to despair that half of our citizens who have free access to information and are required to go to school for a fundamental education believe in fairies over facts. i’m old so fortunately i will not have to witness the decline and fall of our country.
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