The following article is from a Christian gentleman named Kyle. Kyle had contacted me via email after stumbling across my site via a Google search for ‘jesus’. Unlike most of my emails from religious folks, Kyle was rather polite with his comments. We exchanged a few more emails when I decided to ask Kyle how he knew God existed? I also asked him why and how so many Christians claim to feel God or Jesus within them.
Surprisingly Kyle responded and gave me his blessings to share it with all of you. Remember, he was kind enough to put himself at the mercy of you all. So please extend some level of professionalism in your responses.
–gasmonso
Kyle writes:
I know what they mean when they say I can feel God and when they talk to other Christians I truly believe that’s enough but when it comes to convincing someone it takes a little more. Sorry if I sound a little geeky but I’m sort of a science kind of guy I’m going to use numbered points to explain this so I don’t start blending my ideas together.
1. The theory of evolution’s only real argument is that we look kind of the same. Every time someone tries to create a mutation you either get a normal specimen, a retarded specimen, or a dead one. The greatest chance they could possibly have to create a mutation is by using a viral transfer and that is not very likely and only under highly restricted human controlled conditions.
2. We are all made up of Atoms. Those atoms are just swirling electrical charges. So the only difference from you and your computer is an arrangement of charges. These charges are held together by a series of magnetic fields. Other fields around them affect these fields. With the amount of electrical equipment generating magnetic fields in the air it’s a wonder our atoms don’t separate or deform. The earth’s movement creates several different fields and could create a large magnetic anomaly. This would be catastrophic, destroying everything and reverting it back into what it was made of… hydrogen, oxygen, etc. The highly unstable condition of everything’s basic components suggests that there is something beyond this existence as we know it keeping it together. The military has tried to create a weapon based on these facts. It was known as the Philadelphia project and had some very bad results with soldiers fused into the walls of a ship. Now say there was something controlling those fields and the fields within your body. If that being could work the fields within them they could feel a change before one is evident. Science does not disprove God, we just are not smart enough to figure out the complete scientific logic that would reveal God.
3. My case for Jesus. I’ am currently researching this one but as for now I’m just going to use logic. It is proven that a man named Jesus did exist and that 11 of his 12 disciples were murdered in horrible fashion because they would not deny that Jesus rose from the grave. OK say I died and you decided that hey this guy was awesome I’m going to say I saw him come back from the dead. Then the people in charge get a hold of you and say were going to smash in your head with a rock if you do not admit your lying. I would say ok you got me guys I just made it up.
These are just the small reasons that reinforce my faith. I really do believe that it is what I felt that changed me. At first I felt anger, who do these people think they are saying what’s right and what’s wrong. I felt disappointed although I didn’t know why. Then I felt ashamed and I also had no idea why. I soon realized I wasn’t angry at the preachers but at the message. It was when I realized I wasn’t being the man I could be when I felt something pulling at me. Everything I thought was fair wasn’t. I always complained about hate and violence, but then I could say I hated terrorist and thought it was ok because it was ok by society (society also approved of slavery at one time, and of killing Jews in mass numbers in Germany). Something I felt moving in me told me I needed something but it also let me know it was my choice. I chose to accept what was laid down for me at the cross.
Now I feel better than ever. Nothing can really get me down, I mean I get sad and upset because I’m human but never to the points I have before. I Feel God moving me, and once you feel God moving you can see God moving in the world around you.
–Kyle
Related posts:
February 18th, 2007 at 2:38 pm
“Sorry if I sound a little geeky but I’m sort of a science kind of guy … [Followed by what can be described as science fiction (emphasis on the fiction).]”
It’s hard for me to figure out what to write, since I’m not sure what sort of a person Kyle is. I’m getting a mental image of an intelligent, roughly 12 year old boy, who’s fascinated by all things sciency, but hasn’t really learned any science yet. Perhaps, when he’s older, he’ll see how utterly unconvincing his letter really was.
An interesting thing about the letter is that Kyle appears to have a fairly materialistic worldview, something that’s pretty much incompatible with Christianity, at least in the light of modern science.
February 18th, 2007 at 2:46 pm
I’m sorry, on your first point, you do not see the results of “negative” mutations, because such mutations render the sufferer of the gene unable to reproduce, or less able to do so than those who do not have the gene. For an example of a normally “negative” gene surviving see Sickle Cell Anaemia which only continues because carriers (not sufferers, who normally die in early age) are less likely to become infected with malaria. So you see ordinarily we only see those genes that are a benefit to help us reproduce and survive in our environment. Also, the chances of there being a mutation of any kind are 1 in a million, the only reason evolution works is due to the vast time span given to it.
Secondly The Anthropic Principle states that obviously we are in balance and able to exist in our environment, because we are here discussing it. There are countless worlds out there, and Venusians aren’t discussing the Anthropic Principle, since Venus cannot support life.
Finally, simply because it was written in the Gospels, does not make it true. Yes I would be impressed by the solidarity of the disciples. However, since I have no proof (No the Story Book is not “proof”) that it occurred, I simply cannot accept that Jesus did rise from the grave.
February 18th, 2007 at 3:31 pm
I am sorry but when ever Philadelphia experiment is mentioned with faith then I chuckle. I do not mean anything bad with it but religions and conspiracy theories are all too similar in my mind.
February 18th, 2007 at 3:32 pm
[i]The theory of evolution’s only real argument is that we look kind of the same. Every time someone tries to create a mutation you either get a normal specimen, a retarded specimen, or a dead one.[/i]
The theory of evolution doesn’t *argue* anything. It is simply one possible explanation of *how things are* using the available information collated over years of research and data gathering. Whether the theory is correct is obviously distinct from this point, and is left for *people* to argue the points.
On a similar note, one thing I find over and over again with religious believers, especially those who are inclined towards biblical creationism, is that they have no concept of the scale of many of the theories that underline the scientific method. I’ve seen no end of preachers talking about evolution and holding up a picture of a monkey and suggesting that evolution says that your grandfather would look like that if evolution is true.
Maybe the missing part of education in these matters is to impart the scale of what it means to evolve rather than the above downright insulting example.
Dave
February 18th, 2007 at 3:40 pm
with respect to kyle, he has no knowledge of physics (whereas I do, being an engineer of sorts), or basic atomic processes. molecules in our body are held together by chemical bonding which is a force much stronger at that level then any magnetic field. at the more fundamental quantum level, nuclei are held together by the strong force, which depending on how you look at it, is about 100 times as strong as electromagnetic forces.
February 18th, 2007 at 4:06 pm
[i]The theory of evolution’s only real argument is that we look kind of the same. Every time someone tries to create a mutation you either get a normal specimen, a retarded specimen, or a dead one.[/i]
Yeah…that and the fossil record.
oh and of course the geographic location of different animals.
IE: marsupials are only in Australia.
That’s it.
Oh and genes…yeah genes match up and share common traits among species.
oh and junk DNA
and vestigial organs..
I could go on.
But then again. Maybe that’s just what God wants us to think.
February 18th, 2007 at 5:15 pm
Hi Kyle,
I was really angry at you while reading the first half of your letter, I’am a scientist, you know, and after the first 10 word of you letter I could tell that you do not have the slightest idea of what you were talking about and you were misusing science to try to justify your faith.
I will not argue with what you say (but you can write me if you want, I’m willing to talk about it by email), I’ll just let you know that there are a lot of observational evidence and a wide consensus in favor of evolution in the scientific community (and let me assure you that there are a lot of religious people in it and quite a few of them are christians). Also your ideas on atomic physics and chemistry are sparse, and very confused :)
But the reason I am writing to you is that I think that in the end of your letter you highlighted the only _real_ reason why people believe in something.
They believe because they need to, because it makes them feel better. And that’s all.
I would advise you not to try to use science to back up your faith, you really do not need to. I think that faith has a place of its own in the human life (in its soul, if you believe in it). You do not really need to justify you beliefs with anything besides the fact that you choose them (and that they make you feel better).
Regards,
Emme
February 18th, 2007 at 5:39 pm
The most disturbing part of that text was that you say you don’t feel as negative emotions as you did before finding faith, Negative emotions is what makes positive emotions feel so good.
Aren’t you afraid you have cut off the extremes of your emotional spectrum by finding faith?
I curtainly wouldn’t see that as a good thing, i would be deadly afraid, and even more afraid about perhaps not being allowed to fell afraid enough, as a consequence of my faith.
Ofcourse, it could just be me thriving too much on negative emotions…
February 18th, 2007 at 6:37 pm
Snipped out pseudo scientific, unfundend babbling
So, let me get this straight. You felt like crap because you were throwing away your life. That’s natural.
Then you decided to do something about feeling like crap, which is changing your life. Very good
But instead of actually trying to make something of your life, you wallow in religion, which gives you that warm fuzzy feeling of belonging somewhere and having a purpose in your life, Am i right?
I’d just like to know, because I might say something greatly insulting if i’m wrong about this.
I’m really sorry if i’m wrong about this, but you sounds like someone to weak to change anything and thus seeks to lean on religiion like a crutch. Religion is easy and much simpler to acchieve then real satisfaction in my life. “opium for the people” and such.
February 18th, 2007 at 7:44 pm
Wow. What a dummy. Please someone give us some hope that this retarded cancer that’s spread over so much of mankind can find its way into remission. I am not optimistic.
February 18th, 2007 at 7:46 pm
“The theory of evolution’s only real argument is that we look kind of the same.” In what way do we look the same as archaea?
“The greatest chance they could possibly have to create a mutation is by using a viral transfer and that is not very likely and only under highly restricted human controlled conditions.” So what do you think where your mitochondria came from? Well, not exactly viral transfer, but definitely a good example of biological “import”.
If you read this, Kyle, please scroll up and read comment #7 from Emme again. There’s great wisdom in it.
To further back up Emme’s claim: A friend of mine studies physics and mathematics at the university. He learns about the very basics of matter and our methods of understanding it. Yet, he is christian and as far as I know, his faith did not become weaker. Think about it.
February 18th, 2007 at 7:58 pm
Kyle’s letter actually brings up a point I have not yet seen discussed here, which is the contention that Jesus is a fact based on as far as I know a single historical (and religious, I might add) reference decades after he was supposed to have lived. It is a fact that the gospels were not written for at least 40 years after he was supposed to have died. Does it not see strange that the cataclysmic events of Jesus’s live made not a single impression on his contemporaries. If anyone is interested in the subject, I suggest you read the Jesus Mysteries, which lays out a very convincing argument that the myth of Jesus Christ (a pretty generic name Jesus being the Roman version of Joshua, the jewish-propheseid messiah, and Christ, meaning the annointed one) was actually coopted from pagan storied of a man-god resurrected. The authors argue, based largely on the gnostic gospels, that the Jesus myth gradually morphed into a more literal telling as the Catholic Church attempt to corner the market on Christianity. By contrast, the Gnostics were more interested in the Jesus story from an esthetic perspectic. They were likely the ones who coined the idea that God is in all of us, which was a threat to a hierarchical church in which leity are not supposed to question the priests, and was why the church labeled them as heretics. The Catholic church did in fact win and tried to expunge the gnostics from history, which is why their texts were not know about until they were discovered hidden in a cave in the 1970s.
February 18th, 2007 at 9:01 pm
Way to go Kyle. Good for you to attempt to explain your faith. So you don’t have all the “so called facts” so what. It is simple enough for an autistic child to understand - God is.
Do yourself a favor and don’t cast your pearls before these swine. They are hard hearted, forever searching and content to never reach the truth.
I will never come back to read this redorick from a group of haters that gang up to attempt to destroy the faith of people like Kyle.
February 18th, 2007 at 9:13 pm
@Objective Reader:
Firstly don’t insult my intelligence with your pseudonym. Your name is Brad and you have posted on here before. You are also a Christian so your are not an “objective reader” anymore than us.
Secondly, don’t call the readers here a bunch of haters. That is far from the truth and you know it. This article is not an attempt to gang up on some Christian.
It is a window in to the mind of a Christian who was kind enough to let us look in. Hopefully the points raised here will make people on both sides question their own beliefs or reaffirm them.
Go call people names somewhere else because you’re doing more damage to your faith than good.
gasmonso
February 18th, 2007 at 9:15 pm
Hello Kyle, thanks for your post.
One of religion’s best aspects is the social support. I’m glad you found this a help, but there is no evidence for most of it.
I’m going to be a bit mean and criticise the evidence you present.
On evolution,
For hundreds of years, people have bred animals - like cows - to be bigger and better, by breeding the best cows with each other. This makes the next generation of cow better, and these cumulative changes year on year add up to a large change from the original population. With time, this becomes a new species. There is some evidence for evolution - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evidence_of_evolution . See also http://talkorigins.org/ for explanations to common misconceptions of evolution.
On magnetic fields,
The Earth’s magnetic field is about 30 microteslas, while MRI imaging techniques use magnetic fields of between 0.3 and 3 teslas. This is 10,000 to 100,000 times as strong, but shows no adverse effects. Also, the Philadelphia project is a hoax ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philadelphia_project ). Science has a fairly complete model of particle physics behaviour called the Standard Model.
On the disciples,
I can only assume that they were mistaken that they saw Jesus (they did say he looked different, I believe). Or they may have believed that Jesus’ philosophy should continue despite his death. The Bible is biased towards the Christian explanation of events, so I am reluctant to put great weight in its account. You are asked to take the Bible on faith. If you are interested in a religion which does not require faith, Humanism may be the answer.
February 18th, 2007 at 9:21 pm
Please, do not be so quick to judge us. I am certainly not “forever searching” for an answer. If looking at the advantages and disadvantages of a claim is hating, then I hate every politician, every religion, and every single word spoken on the face of this planet, and I’m willing to bet that most of the other people here do as well.
February 18th, 2007 at 9:23 pm
You beat me to it, gasmonso.
February 18th, 2007 at 9:25 pm
Ok, that’s all settled so let’s focus on what Kyle has written. I want to maintain focus :)
gasmonso
February 18th, 2007 at 9:25 pm
Most people here are simple searching for truth, and are content knowing that they don’t know it yet. That’s not a bad thing, though. I’m a spiritual person, but I don’t know the Truth. It’s not something you get easily; if anyone hands it to you, they’re trying to trick you.
That being said, not everyone here is interested in finding out the truth. Some people (on both sides!) are guilty of slinging their own propaganda and makebelieve. It’s sad, but it happens when you start dealing with this stuff.
February 18th, 2007 at 9:29 pm
Opps, sorry, back on track…
:)
February 18th, 2007 at 9:41 pm
I can’t help but find it amusing that so many religious believers feel the need to resort to the scientific method to prove their claims these days. There used to be a simpler time when all you needed was faith, and that’s all that was asked for. I think this is good, since it proves that people are asking for a more than they were in the past, but it seems like more often than not science and logic, when used to support a religious argument, are not really the reason the person believes. After all, it still comes down to faith. Yet to try and pose faith in a scientific view is muddling, in my opinion. Which is why I seriously dislike most creations arguments (since those out to prove them assume the Bible is right to begin with). I am not a scientist, but I have yet to see truly convincing arguments that do anything other than poke at a certain idea of evolution. I have to agree with the opinion already stated that the second part of this post is the part that explains things, not the first. It’s faith in this kind of matter, the science is largely secondary (and often questionable). It’s good to get someone who’s not out to fight, at least :)
February 18th, 2007 at 10:18 pm
Please read Richard Dawkin’s ‘The God Delusion’ to dispute most of his claims easily, especially when it comes to evolution. I really resent the poster’s postulation of being a scientific observer, when he clearly has not really dug into the subject at all.
“Does not follow” is true for most of the stuff and especially for the whole Jesus argument: If you need any evidence on how people can be brainwashed to give their life for a religious idea please look at numerous modern sects and then say that it it wouldn’t be plausible. But it is also rather pointless, since the new testament consits of contradicting stories from several sources recorded decades after his death and cannot really account for who Jesus actually was and what he did, while his existence can be valid nontheless.
Thank you for making a polite argument, though.
February 18th, 2007 at 10:41 pm
Well To get a better picture of me might help you see into my words a little better. I am nineteen. In highschool i played four years on a succesfull football team and was captin of the wrestling team my junior year. When i was saved i had everything the girl, the lettermans jacket and the loving family. Most people thought of me as a good guy. But no matter how good i thought i was or anyone else was there was still times where i failed to do everything i possibly could for anyone who needed me. And no one can say they have done that perfectly. Yeah you older scientest probably have a lot more knowledge than me on science because I have ben studying it by myself at home for two months. I Know you do not need science to prove God but thats what scientest used as a base against god and as soon as we try to give a response they say it is wrong to do so. I’m getting the feeling that people think I was weak and couldn’t get by on my own well that’s entirly true but not by the worlds means. I had it easy as far as a basic human bieng i needed for nothing but i am more than flesh and bone I am more than animalistic urges. And as far as making my self feel good. You’ve seen what I’ve seen on the news I can’t sleep at night. There is to much praying to do. My life has become harder but i find God’s grace in the srtuggle. To mold a beautiful pieace of pottery you must put it through the flames and through the flames it becomes more than the clay it started out as. Friends you better believe I will keep studying on this stuff because i know notthing happens for no reason. I don’t need to study this stuff and it is totally irrelivant to my faith but it interests me. I love the fact that you felt urged to reply because it means your not dead inside and feel the urge to seek the truth as much as I do. I never want to affend anyone without good reason so if I offended anyone with somthing stupid i said I’m sorry but if it was somthing that i can back up with the word I can’t apoligize. I have only ben a christen for about a year.I am going to college to study criminal justice. I am a sundayschool teacher. Now i hope you don’t get mad but when you lay down to go to sleep tonight get to your most honest point. that point when you are not trying to hide any thought from yourself or any one else and ask god that if he exists to show you that he does. Don’t look for somthing floating in the air or somthing like that. I can’t tell you what it will be or when it will come but I can promise you that if you are in a humble state you will see it and get your answer. So go ahead make fun of me if you want tell me it is stupid do whatever you want to in front of people but just do it I beg you. I can honestly say each and everyone of you mean alot to me. I may not have met you but I know that your life hasn’t ben easy Because we all have a pesky habbit of focusing on the bad and forgetting the good. With that I say I luv you and if you want to comment on this peacefully I’ll accept that and if you want to throw stones I’ll accept that also. P.S. I preffer not to be called religous. religious people kill and hate in the name of religion if you call me anything call me a born again christian.
February 19th, 2007 at 12:41 am
@ gasmonso
“Your a hater” is not name calling when it is a repeatable experiment observable in real time.
Your cause looks no greater for labeling people who believe in God as freaks by posting examples of right wing extremes and fringe groups to springboard your hate for religion.
I forgot to call you a loser also fyi. Whats the big deal here? How am I making any faith look worse?
The gloves are off on this sight given the name and the posted comments.
Now your a lier also by saying your not a bunch of haters.
Man now I have to edit my statement you a “lying hater”.
: )
February 19th, 2007 at 1:14 am
here i am breaking a rule i will enlighten you with
“arguing on the internet is like the reatard olympics, in the end you are still a retard’ sorry for any of a lesser mental capacity without a choice to change it.
religion is a crutch, its what makes us guess instead of study,its why people are ok with America being imperialistic ‘its not me being killed, they can do what they want’ religion you could say, makes us all feel ‘as long as i am right, they can all die instead’
if its a minority, truly, PROVE IT
February 19th, 2007 at 1:45 am
@My Name Says-
1. If you’re going to be an ass, at least use correct grammar and spelling.
2. I don’t hate. Although,I do laugh at some of the utterly ridiculous beliefs religion requires of its followers.
3. We come here because there really is no place else where we can discuss how idiotic some religious people can be, without commiting social suicide. Religion gets a free pass on its absurdity, we aren’t allowed to criticize it in polite conversation.
4. Kyle was sincere, although ill-informed. He’s 19 and trying to figure out just what the f*** is going on in this world. I’m glad he was strong enough to come to this site and challenge us. He is the kind of Christian I could have a dialogue with.
5. You, on the other hand, are inarticulate, unpleasant, weak-minded, and sad. Go bother someone else.
February 19th, 2007 at 1:51 am
@ itanshi
Nice Rant. I see you have feelings about mentally challenged people as well…..hate them also?
I guess in the survival of the fittest world view when taken to the end of its logical conclusion that statement would make sense to you all right?
Weaker species?
Darwin thought black people were inferior also.
Thank God for “deluded religious people” who don’t lend an ear to this hateful redorick for even a second and live to a higher law called love beyond reason.
I never see them posted on here though.
In order to represent other sides of the faith of Christians can you please post a video clip of hard working missionaries who give up their lives and comforts of western living to go and pour themselves out selflessly for others for no other reason other than to show them there is a higher love beyond reason? I look forward to the full unbiased representation of the the beliefs you attack being posted on here.
Many religious people study and learn all about their faith, study theology and world religions, historical records, anthropology, biology, sciences, and other cultures.
I mean look at me here…..I’m studying a hate fringe group and how they conduct themselves and justify their hate against Christians.
Your all being a great help in proving out the doctrine of total human depravity.
Thanks again.
February 19th, 2007 at 1:58 am
@gabrielAmerican
Please love me despite my struggles with spelling ok?
Of course you wish to dialogue with people who wont yank ya directly on the table and call your hate what it is.
That type of boldness confronts your cowardness heads on and you are no longer in control of your little world - it sucks to be you eh?
February 19th, 2007 at 2:23 am
Kyle wrote, “when you lay down to go to sleep tonight get to your most honest point. that point when you are not trying to hide any thought from yourself or any one else and ask god that if he exists to show you that he does.”
It seems to me that you are describing a kind of a religious experience. Such experiences are common enough, people all around the world of various faiths, and even the faithless, have them. Have you considered that it might just be a product of your brain? Why do you think that this is sufficient evidence of God?
And Kyle, I do not mean this in any disrespectful way, but you really must work on your writing skills, if you intend to have an academic career.
February 19th, 2007 at 3:00 am
I’ve been reading here for a while, and I thought I’d take up the soapbox for a minute of everyone’s time. I have taken a few Theology courses, and have been to many religious gatherings. I’ve read the Koran, the Bible, the Torah, and even a couple Hindu books. Personally I am not religious at all, but I have a question, specifically for Kyle.
What validates your faith in God more than the Muslim belief in Allah? Hindu’s belief in many Gods?
You said “when you lay down to go to sleep tonight get to your most honest point. that point when you are not trying to hide any thought from yourself or any one else and ask god that if he exists to show you that he does.â€
What if I were to ask “Should everyone in this world get a free pie tommorow?” and feel the love of a god. Would this validate my beliefs? This may sound ridiculous to you, but from my perspective, I have seen all kinds of crazy requests of a diety and higher being….
Science gives more than empty answers. Questions are Taboo to a faith. Any answer you will get out of a holy man will be a fairy-tale or a simply ‘because God made it so’. Science will give you answer based on evidence, or no answer at all. It is at least the most honest form of faith.
Please do one thing for me, ask whoever told you those crazy descriptions of evolution and molecular physics, to explain where he heard them. Because he lied to you, knowlingly or not. Don’t take my word for it, do a google search, ask questions of your own.
For all your ’search of truth’… you seem to not be searching very hard.
Quintalis
February 19th, 2007 at 4:02 am
I think I’ve got a wonderful idea! The kind that only appears at 4 in the morning when battling insomnia.
Kyle, would you be willing to volunteer to do one of the “Just Ask A…” sections? We’ve been in need of a Christian perspective in that section for quite some time. Its a great way to research you beliefs in response to hard questions compiled by the varied readers here. Heck, my section is part of the reason I’m not a Deist anymore.
You seem like a pretty cool guy about all this, so what do you say?
February 19th, 2007 at 4:11 am
I just want to say… this thread is very entertaining, thank you all :D
something caught my eye… Kyle said that nothing happens for no reason… thats very true. if a billiard ball bounces off another, it happened because they happened to be travelling on a collision course. thats the reason.
but you might say, well what caused them to head on that particular course? well at the very basic level scientists see the big bang as the initial enactor. religious people say its god that has a hand in everything. why can’t they be the same thing?
science unequivocally admits that its impossible to explain what happened before the big bang, as everything that science is based on… physics, chemistry, etc., arose from the big bang according to the standard model.
who says that it wasn’t all started by god?
February 19th, 2007 at 4:15 am
oh and another thing… I am going to lay down to sleep tonight… and I am going to dream about beer and women, tyvm
February 19th, 2007 at 5:15 am
well, back on topic a bit
“”Yeah you older scientest probably have a lot more knowledge than me on science because I have ben studying it by myself at home for two months.”"
*whispers* I’m nineteen to, but let’s atribute scientific knowledge to the fact that our educational system teaches HOW to think instead of WHAT to think
Noooooo, It’s what scientists use as a base against the arguments why god must exist.
Nobody is saying: “There is evolution, so god does not exist” we’re saying “There is evolution, so your point stating god must exist to create us all is not valid”
sigh, this is exactly the escapeist view I object. there is NOT much parying to do, there is a lot of work to do.
contrary to what you seem to think, religion points to what they say is the thruth, whereas the scientific method encourages you to find the thruth yourself.
riiight, because christians don’t kill and hate in the name of religion
also, please please PLEASE use paragraphs.
February 19th, 2007 at 7:00 am
Lot of scientific inaccuracies in there, including the prinicples of atomic theory, evolutionary theory, and the Philadelphia project (generally considered to be a debunked myth.)
All I can say is there’s too much wrong information there to be easily corrected. A few days in some basic high school science classes would help immensely
February 19th, 2007 at 10:20 am
@My Name: You’re angry, eh? Let’s settle this like men…
“Scissors!” - “Stone!” - “Damn!” :P
@Kyle: As many others already did I would like to thank you for your courage of putting your faith on dispute in this (predominantly) non-believers society. If you are searching for modern ways to justify faith you may want to talk to some christian scientists. I recommand you to come back to the “just ask” option that gasmonso presented when you are more skilled in argueing.
Evan’s idea in comment #32 is pretty close to what I tried to tell you in comment #11. Why does anything exist at all, instead of just nothing? The reason behind the existence of matter is not a subject of science. In your comment #23 you talk about scientists using science to attack faith. If they do so, they’re wrong, too. Tell them right in their face that you don’t need scientific proof to believe in God.
Alternatively, you may think about that maybe it is natural for sentient beings like us to search for a higher reason in life. We developed into being interested in and resarching the world we live in (evolution: those who did resarch survived better than the ones that took everything for granted). As we are capable to perceive not only material objects but also relationships and hidden agendas we apply the same principle on the “why” question of life itself. This drive is a carnal urge in itself.
However, being the result of a carnal urge does not downgrade any attempt to explain the meaning of life. A lot of species have developed motherly love and it has proven to be useful in evolution (mothers caring about the adolescent and all that) and humans are one of these species. Now demasked as a tool for better survival, is your mother’s love for you worth less? I wouldn’t dare to say so. In the same way, any explanation of why we (and matter at all) exist is as valid as can be, despite being a side effect of the resarch drive that helped us developing in the dominant species on this planet.
Go on with your search for truth. Much better than blind zealotry.
February 19th, 2007 at 10:34 am
True christians don’t hate or kill just the pretenders. My religion is not a cruch. I do pray at night and if you dont remember my major I get up and try to change the world for the better in the morning. As far as i see it my faith is the only thing that makes sense. If I asked a 16th century scientes how a cellphone works he would have me burned at the steak for sorcery. O.K. So I had some of that stuff wrong but it doesn’t mean that science and god are on the opposite ends it just means science has it found proof god exists. And as for faith if you believe a big bang happend out of nowhere you my friend have faith in somthing. Don’t think i’m stupid. I understand thier is a case for all the thing you say but I also know at one time there was a case for the world bieng flat.
February 19th, 2007 at 10:36 am
sorry got ahead of myself again I ment to say my friend you have faith in somthing. I may rush my writing skills on here but the truth is I write books and am currently working on a publishing deal. If i take my time my writting skills are fine.
February 19th, 2007 at 11:02 am
@38
I’m losing confidence in this thread
February 19th, 2007 at 11:14 am
Well, after reading 35 comments on this post I have to say that some of the responses are a bit combative. :)
Those of you who are saying he needs more education are probably right, but be nicer. At least think about how you would feel if your own comments were directed at yourself.
———————————————–
Now, Kyle, you pose a couple of interesting arguments. Basically part 1 has already been discussed ad naseum, and you need to do more research and maybe get a game like simLife to help you get a feel for evolution. Remember, evolution is *NOT* anti-god. It is merely a possible description for how god may have done it. Science does not care about the why of things as much as it cares about the how. And by how I mean the physical mechanism and the rules to describe that mechanism. None of them preclude God from being a part of it as the overseer of the rules.
As to your magnetic theory, I see several misconceptions as to what science says about magnetism.
Now, yes we are made up of atoms. Atoms are not just swirling electrical charges though. Even though all matter and energy are related by the equation E=mc^2, this is not quite the same thing as your statement. There is a bit more to it than that. They are the same yet, because of the state they are in, they have different properties.
I think I understand what you were trying for.It still is not sufficient to prove or even support God’s existence.
As far as all the magnetic fields go there are a few things you should know:
1. the number of magnetic fields is not important to deforming matter from it’s shape.
2. the force of electro-magnetism decreases with the square of distance.(That is to say, take a baloon and blow it up half way and put a square on it with a sharpie. Then blow it up to twice the diameter, and measure the square again. The square will cover 4 times the area of the original, even though it is covering the same ratio of the “sphere”. This is what the “decreases with the square of distance means. It means that the SAME amount of energy will be spread over a larger area the further you get from the source.)
3. magnetism alone does not hold our atoms together, at least not in the way you meant.
There is a book by Richard Feynmann that I would recommend: QED http://www.amazon.com/QED-Strange-Princeton-Science-Library/dp/0691125759/sr=8-1/qid=1171900976/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/104-2328037-6046327?ie=UTF8&s=books
This book will hold some of the answers, but it does not describe the weak or strong nuclear forces, or gravity.
4. Nothing is needed to “hold together” our existence besides the basic forces of the universe. Things are not that unstable. If magnetism made things that unstable, then the your VCR would crumble since it has electro-magnets in it. and electric motors would be so unstable as to disintegrate whenever used. Remember it takes work(physics meaning) to change matter into other forms and modify a molecule’s structure.
5. do not confuse radio waves with magnetism. They are not the same. They are light, which can through electrical interactions induce magnetic fields, but the radio waves themselves do NOT carry either a charge or a magnetic moment with them. Only by interacting with electrons can the y actually be associated with magnetism. So fear not the magnetic monster.
Now in those descriptions, I took liberties and felt the need for this disclaimer:
I am not a scientist, nor do I claim to be. Nor do I want to be. I’m just this guy-you know?
Constructive criticism encouraged.
February 19th, 2007 at 11:21 am
This is the first thread I’ve read here on this site. I was actually browsing the web looking for articles on the new creation museum, when I happened across this.
The fact that the site is called “religiousfreaks” shows that the creator of this site feels that people of faith are “freaks” or stupid maybe? Offensive to say the least.
I certainly won’t stoop to that level as our mission given to us by Jesus Christ is to spread the Gospel to the world, not to “force” people to believe or to ridicule those that don’t. I would imagine that all of you here know the story. But I can’t understand why people who do not believe or have faith feel the need to attack those that do? We are here only as witnesses. We do not dole out judgement, that is in God’s hands.
Throughout history, non-believers have found the need to persecute and murder peaceful Christians. Why is that? Where is the threat?
Anyway, I admire Kyle for coming here and explaining his faith. He is young and still is not loaded with the scientific knowledge he needs to go head to head with you guys in the arena. I have a college degree and have studied astronomy, anthropology, geology, and world religions. Having done all that studying, I still believe the Bible is 100 percent correct and accurate. The claims on this site of inconsistencies is just not right. If you care to put forth examples, I will show you where you’re wrong.
I am curious as to why you all find the need to attack Christianity and why you go to such lengths to try to “prove” it is a myth? Are you absolutely sure in your hearts that God does not exist? Is there any purpose in this life other than to live and die?
February 19th, 2007 at 11:35 am
CLANG CLANG CLANG CLANG (The Philadelphia Project is truuuueeeeeeee…..)
February 19th, 2007 at 11:54 am
Frank, you seem to be the perfect person for the “just ask” section. Fairly educated and yet a christian. What makes you think the bible is accurate? What is the meaning of life, if not its sheer existance (”to live and to die”)? All these questions could be discussed at any length desired (in a new thread). Talk to gasmonso about this, please.
Concerning the offensiveness in the site’s name: I guess it only refers to those people of faith that behave freaky. Gasmonso can probably say more about it.
February 19th, 2007 at 12:38 pm
The funny thing that scince could lead to God, and could mislead you like most of you are, scince didn’t explain every thing yet, and brother Truth on one of the threads askes about “the seoul”, and how the scince explained it, and people said that they don’t even beleive in the seoul, and he asnwered that you could make somebody’s heart beat and his mind work but he is dead, I didn’t see our big scinteist here answer the question, most of you dodge the question, because you have no answer, and it’s easy for you to say that I don’t beleive in seoul.
I might agree with Kyle for God existence, and I agree that Jesus existed and he is a Prophet, but I don’t agree he is a god nor he got excuted.
February 19th, 2007 at 12:41 pm
I would be happy to answer questions about Christianity. I’m not sure how much time I would have to devote to it though. Certainly the there questions you posed would take quite a bit of time to get through. There have been volumes and volumes of books written on the subject. Hours and hours of taped debate and so forth and so on.
One thing is for certain, one cannot convince another of something when the presupositions are so strong. There is always a counter argument from an athiest. There is no way that I can prove to you that God exists. Likewise, there is no way that you could prove to me that the universe came into existance out of nothing with nothing to start the ball rolling. To believe either takes a certain amount of faith. What sounds more fantastic, “God created the ordered universe” or, “The ordered universe came into being out of nothing, from nothing and ordered itself through chance?” Our infinite God answers all the questions through the Bible. Science only asks more questions which questions lead to more questions and then more questions into infinite questions trying to learn the mind and reasons behind the acts of our infinite God.
People choose to believe or not to believe. God could perform a physical miracle right before most athiest’s eyes and they still wouldn’t believe it. Instead, they would use science to try to prove that there was some kind of slight of hand or illusion performed. People watched Jesus perform miracles and still did not believe. Sceptics will always be sceptics. As Kyle says, when God calls you, you’ll know it. If you seek him, you will find him.
February 19th, 2007 at 12:42 pm
Wow, did I come a bit late to this party. I skimmed many of the posts, so forgive me if I missed something.
First, Kyle, thanks for sharing your thoughts and welcome to the site! I hope that you will continue to post on this and other topics that appear here. I must admit that Christians or Muslims or just about any religious person does tend to get ‘ganged up on’ sometimes. This is because religious posters are in the minority on this site. Also, we have a small number of regularly contributing atheists who do insult every religious person. It’s best just to ignore those individuals and focus on those who are interested in an earnest debate.
The one point that I did not see anyone bring up in response to Kyle’s article is that evolution does not necessarily have anything to do with the existence of God. Many religious people seem to think that disproving of evolution will, somehow, prove God. It is incorrect to say, “I believe in God because I think evolution is wrong.” It would be more appropriate to say, “I believe in God and I think evolution is wrong.” These are two separate statements.
For this reason, I would suggest, Kyle, that when listing the reasons why you believe in God, leave evolution out of it. The reasons why I find your other reasons for believing unconvincing has already been stated by others.
February 19th, 2007 at 12:49 pm
Hello Frank,
I would like to extend my welcome to you as well. I sincerely hope that you get the opportunity to do a ‘Just Ask’ session. Indeed, it is my favorite part of ReligiousFreaks.com.
February 19th, 2007 at 2:19 pm
sidfaiwu,
Thanks for the welcome. I would be happy to do a “Just Ask” session. You all would have to be patient with me as I don’t generally have a lot of time to spend on the internet, but I certainly would be happy to field questions.
Just one question for you. If evolution is incorrect, then what other explanation for our existance is there other than that of God having created us?
February 19th, 2007 at 2:31 pm
Frank,
[quote]Just one question for you. If evolution is incorrect, then what other explanation for our existance is there other than that of God having created us?[/quote]
Unfortunately your question does not lead to the conclusion you might be hoping for. Let us suppose for a minute that evidence came to light that evolution is in fact completely incorrect. What, as you say, other explanation is there?
In effect, there would be no suitable hypothesis with a sizable body of evidence that would lead us in a given direction. One 2000 year old book cannot be considered suitable scientific evidence.
In short, evolution being false does not prove a god, it simply means we need to search an alternative solution (which may or may not be god)
Dave
February 19th, 2007 at 2:41 pm
Oh come now Skyclad, we all know that Odin slew Ymmir and forged the borders of Midgard with Ymmir’s skull. I thought everyone knew that. God didn’t create the universe, ancient warrior men killing dragons did.
February 19th, 2007 at 3:08 pm
As tempting as it is to poke holes in Kyles efforts to consolidate science with religion, there are plenty of highly trained scientists with a more sophisticate knowledge of scientific principles who fall essentially make the same argument, i.e. life on this planet is in too perfect balance to have occured randomly. I think this is well illustrated in a book on faith by Francis Collins, the so-called father of the Human Genome Project.
As someone who is really pretty obsessed with understand why people believe in god and, even more, how they choose a religion, it seems as one of the christian posters implied, that what people really want is a rationalization that allows them to feel there is a reason they have a purpose on this earth without abandoning everything that modern science offers us in terms of improved quality of life.
February 19th, 2007 at 3:13 pm
Ancient warrior men killing dragons makes for a better read, I think. Forging borders with a skull? That’s some really trippy imagery. (Not trying to be snarky, actually I find Norse mythology to be rather fascinating, and it is a refreshing change from the Roman and Greek stories.)
Where are my Wagner CDs?
February 19th, 2007 at 4:17 pm
@34
I apologize for trying to bring a bit of humor into this discussion, even if it was off topic. I will not attempt to be funny again.
February 19th, 2007 at 4:27 pm
Hello again Frank,
Skyclad pretty much answered the question the same way I would have. If evolution were falsified, we would have no real answer. But not having an answer does not require us to invoke God. A case in point in history is gravity. Before Einstein, what caused gravitation was not understood. No one said ’since we have no idea what causes gravitation, we must assume that God causes objects to attract on another.’ They simply looked for better answers.
February 19th, 2007 at 4:56 pm
Kyle: Much love brother; you are very young and have the world in front of you. That feeling inside of you, it dies when you get older; trust me. When I was your age, I thought “There is so much to take in, how will I ever know enough to make a difference; or what purpose will I ever fill”
Every kid goes through this, it’s called growing up; some people will tell you to take it seriously and choose a path early on. But the people who truley care about you, like your parents, should keep you free from indoctrination; until you are old enough to make an “informed” decision. If that feeling inside you truley is god, and truley wants you to choose for yourself; then it can wait until you are 25 or 30 right?
True learning and objectivity is gained from purity of mind, and your mind is filled with beleif. If you glossed over the last paragraph, then hold on to this: Stop trying to make applicable what you beleive, into what you are learning.
(That’s what make me hate Christianity specifically, who constantly change the ethics of their indoctrination to be more applicable to the “evolution” of Western society)
February 19th, 2007 at 4:59 pm
Thanks for your frank attempt to explain your position Kyle without the fire and vitriol that sometimes follows your fellow Christian brethren. I grew up Christian myself. Your letter brings back memories for me of a time when I only knew a little of science and it was easy to mold to my religious beliefs.
Over time, as my knowledge of science expanded, I had a harder and harder time making my religious side mesh with my inner scientist. Science had evidence and provable results. Religion had 2000 year old stories and cute anecdotes that never stood up to a scientific examination. I still clung to a dwindling faith until dealings with my local Bishop hammered the final nail into the coffin for my faith. Seeing now the delusion of faith has given me freedom and removed the blinders.
All those years I was surrounded by lies including the one that atheists are evil and just want to lead immoral lives without consequence. I have since learned that atheism is not about living an immoral life. It is instead about living a moral one for the sake of being moral and not because a bearded old voyeur in the sky will smack me down if I’m not.
February 19th, 2007 at 5:12 pm
Frank:
“One” of my purposes in life, (a very fulfilling one I might add) is fighting against the primary causes of ignorance and segregation.
It wasn’t enough that we gave people the freedom of religion in our society; your faith chooses to use this freedom to segregate and seperate people from their peers. Good faith is the kind that dies easily; replaced by what you are all searching for: Love.
February 19th, 2007 at 5:16 pm
DeusExMichael:
Gorgeous summation! “It is instead about living a moral one for the sake of being moral and not because a bearded old voyeur in the sky will smack me down if I’m not.”
Truley good, honest and humble people are born of experience; not faith or fear.
February 19th, 2007 at 5:40 pm
To all confused religious people:
See example: http://www.wellingtongrey.net/miscellanea/archive/2007-01-15%20–%20science%20vs%20faith.html
February 19th, 2007 at 5:45 pm
Oops wrong link, sorry
http://www.wellingtongrey.net/miscellanea/archive/2007-01-15%20–%20science%20vs%20faith.html
February 19th, 2007 at 6:05 pm
Hmm, to me it says it’s a site about religious people who are acting like freaks, which i’m quite sure is the proper english meaning for it.
Just wondering, didn’t you read my comment?
It’s fundamentally impossible to prove god. The problem is that Christians keep trying to use science to justify god, and useing god to influence science, both of which are unfunded.
The only reasoning scientists use is to say “No, using this and that argument doesn’t prove god exists because of this and that”
really? I didn’t study history or anything, but I don’t recall ever hearing about the “great christian burning” caused by atheists. Other christians? Sure. Muslims? Yeah. Romans? Yup. But Atheists? not really.
@ mohamed.
Funny, I did see the question answered…..
Anyway, The brain is far more complicated then a heart. Why do you think the heart is the first organ we’ve managed to succesfully replace with a synthetic one? A heart has one or two moving parts.
The brain though, there’s something different. It has billions of neurons, connected between them they make trillions upon trillions of different connections. Get a few wrong and POOF there goes the use of your right arm.
If you wish to define soul (Seoul is the capital of South Korea) as your consiousness, then it is nothing then the connections between the neurons in your brain. They last about 10 minutes (if you’re lucky) without oxygen, before they die. The heart can last for hours before being affected.
oh Evan, sorry, I didn’t mean it like that.
Skyclad: the formating is in HTML quote here without the _ of course.
and shaze, It’s 404….
well, that’s enough for today. goodnight to all
February 19th, 2007 at 6:08 pm
Kyle: “Don’t think i’m stupid.”
I am sorry Kyle, but the content and execution of your posts make it utterly impossible for me to think otherwise. This what bothers me about “kids today” with their internet lingo, they post like morons then they want people to take them seriously. Granted, I can see that your issue isn’t purposeful, that you are just a naturally bad or uneducated writer, but it is the same issue. If you want people to think you aren’t stupid, then learn how to write in a manner that doesn’t make you appear to be so.
Kyle: “I may rush my writing skills on here but the truth is I write books and am currently working on a publishing deal. If i take my time my writting skills are fine.”
A writer that REQUIRES a spell and grammar checker to render their writing legible is not a writer. They are just someone who tosses words on a page and hopes for the best. A real writer learns how to write, and they don’t require help with this most basic skill. If you are saying that if you “slow down and take it easy” then you can spell and write correctly, then I call you a liar. Any real writer would sooner cut off their hands than write like you have.
I believe that you are in talks to have a book published as much as I believe in your god. That is to say, not at all.
As to your original post, what can I say that hasn’t already been said? It is painfully obvious you haven’t a clue about that which you speak. (Or write, as the case may be.) You really, REALLY should learn to look before you leap. If you go into a place that is obviously oriented towards science and start talking science, you really had BETTER get it right. Otherwise, you just look like an idiot.
February 19th, 2007 at 6:19 pm
Mohamed: “and he asnwered that you could make somebody’s heart beat and his mind work but he is dead, I didn’t see our big scinteist here answer the question, most of you dodge the question, because you have no answer, and it’s easy for you to say that I don’t beleive in seoul.”
No, I don’t believe in a soul. As for your nonsense question, what I could make of it that is, I can format my computer’s hard drive and then turn it on. It comes on, the drives spin up, but it doesn’t boot. Does that prove it has a soul? In other words, a brain dead person who’s heart has a beat and who’s mind wiggles some needles on an EEG is the same thing, a computer with a wiped hard drive. At present we don’t yet know how to reload the OS on it, sorry. This in NO way proves or disproves a soul.
February 19th, 2007 at 6:36 pm
And as I finish reading this thread up to this point, I just had to make a post to Frank. Frank, Frank, Frank. I so love it when a christian comes to this site just KNOWING they have all the answers, when in fact you have a lifetime (or not, the situation varies with the born-agains) of indoctrination. Some of us really don’t need your life’s crutch.
I saw your mention of your degree and your studying of that impressive list of sciences and yet you still believe the bible is 100% true? If this is the case, then you wasted your time with all the studying. You should have just got the bare minimum required to get your degree so you can get a nice job and quit, the rest was a complete waste.
Why do I attack the “peaceful” religion of christanity? The religion itself may very well be, but the PEOPLE who follow it rarely are. Just look back in history and see how much mayhem has been wrought by your peaceful religion. Even today, your people (you ARE a christian right?) want to force your belief on everyone. They go about attempting to spread this horrible plague on people with “missionaries” (I consider them carriers). In this country we have lawmakers making laws based 100% on their religious beliefs.
Ah, I am wasting my time. It is obvious that you are too far gone. There is no hope for you.
February 19th, 2007 at 7:05 pm
@Alcari:
my bad dude… :)
February 19th, 2007 at 7:36 pm
Michael:
We should have beers one day;
Anyone ever watch Kubric’s/Speilberg’s Artificial Intelligence? Or Asimov’s I, Robot? You know, where they make compelling and stunning comparison’s between Mankind’s view of the soul. After watching these movies, I realize that I have no more a soul than I do the brains to understand the concept. You just wait until you have a conversation with a Robot or A.I. on the internet one day, then tell me we are a unique species. I can’t wait to see the answers Science provides us! You think the idea of God is cool, just wait until we find a way to traverse time and universes!
I have a good question for all the beleivers out there “How many of you read Science Fiction? ie. Douglas Adams etc.”
February 19th, 2007 at 11:00 pm
Shaze,
Just wait until that AI become significantly smarter than us… which should be pretty much the second we have something we can call “strong” AI. Not to mention AI which can improve upon its own design (look up “technological singularity” if you’re interested… it’s fascinating stuff).
At a point at which something we created dwarfs our own intelligence (and emotion and everything else you would consider to make up a soul) which some would have us believe was created by a perfect omnipotent god, one would just have to wonder how intelligent (and plausible) this god of yours actually is.
February 20th, 2007 at 2:56 am
“”Anyone ever watch Kubric’s/Speilberg’s Artificial Intelligence? Or Asimov’s I, Robot? You know, where they make compelling and stunning comparison’s between Mankind’s view of the soul. “”
and by that you mean READ I, robot of course, the movie beind a pile of crap…
Also, I’d like to point out that it’s often immediatly obvious if someone’s read Adams from his/her sense of humor.
AFAIK, the bible/koran doesn’t even prove the idea of souls. It’s something people added later to give it an air scientificity.
February 20th, 2007 at 6:47 am
@Alcari:
The Quran actually does mention the soul quite often, but there is one verse I still laugh about whenever mentioned:
17:85 And they ask you concerning the Spirit. Say: “The Spirit is from the command on my Lord, and the knowledge you were given was but very little.”
So basically what god says is “it’s NOYB!”, in a polite fashion.
@Kyle,
Writing in a “geeky way” as you call it, and presenting (psudo) scientific arguments, you will have to agree that the replies will be purely scientific.
So, you can either bring more scientific arguments which we will be glad to debate, or you can just say “I believe in God because I chose to, there doesn’t have to be a worldly reason.” After all, no scientist was able to figure out anything about God yet.
February 20th, 2007 at 7:54 am
Michael, Michael, Michael…I didn’t come here purporting to have all the answers. I do not use my faith as a “crutch.” And most of you will never have faith in God regardless of what I say. My faith is no reason for you to insult my level of intellegence or to pass judgement on whether I wasted my education or not. I don’t believe I cam here calling ahteists ignorant.
A few years ago, I used the same arguments you use to blast Christians so you have nothing new for me. Faith is an action, a choice. You choose to have no faith in God, I choose to have it. Without God, life has no meaning, no purpose. You live, get all you can get, then die. Right now, that is how mankind is living. Our morales have gone down the toilet and this country is slowly, but surely spiralling down to its own self destruction.
You know, it takes an act of faith to be an atheist also. To state infatically that there is no God takes faith or infinite knowledge of the universe. I don’t think anyone here has infinite knowledge of the universe. You can make fun of us all you want, but it will not change a thing, it’s only an outlet for your own personal frustrations or feelings of insecurity that drives you to it.
There have been numerous killings and persecutions in the name of the God throughout Christian history. If you truly understand the teachings of Jesus, you will know for sure that these people who perpetrated these atrocities were certainly not living according to the doctrine laid down by Christ. There are still numerous charlatans out there bilking innocent people out of their hard earned money in the nam of God. That doesn’t mean that God does not exist. It just means that there are very unscrupulous people out there fooling people.
As far as athiests not killing Christians, I think you need to take another look at Joseph Stallin. Human beings are capable of all sorts of atrocities no matter what ideology they believe in.
February 20th, 2007 at 8:43 am
I never said Atheists didn’t kill christians. Nice way to pull a typical believer stunt and put words in someone’s mouth. Far, FAR more evil has been perpetrated in the name of your christian god than any Atheist. As for them not following the teachings of jesus? Sure, they were just following the old testiment. You can pick and choose from your books as needed.
I laugh every time a believer uses that line, that it takes “faith” to be an Atheist. It is called “misinformation” and it makes you guys feel better about the fact that you have absolutely no proof of all this hogwash you believe.
I have to hit the road for work, I will respond further during lunch.
February 20th, 2007 at 9:03 am
Inuendo and insults does not make an argument Michael. By the way, I would think that Stalin alone is responsible for more atrocities than all “Christian” atrocities combined…however, the question is not about whether or not humans murder humans, the question is about the existance of God.
You can laugh all you want about the line that it takes faith to be an atheist. The fact of the matter is that unless you purport to have infinite knowledge about the universe, then you have to have faith that you are correct that there is no God.
February 20th, 2007 at 9:51 am
Frank,
You have made no valid arguments yourself. The questions here are not only about the existence of god or other imaginary friends, but in this case specifically about the particular god according to this odd collection of fables known as the bible that you and Kyle wish to present as representative of reality. The christian bible is very clear (and obviously wrong) on so many points of history and science that it is time for all thinking people to put it aside.
Science has clearly shown both testaments of the bible to be ficticious. The bible is nothing more than a collection of old superstitions that smart people have gradually thrown aside over the past few centuries. Furthermore, the bible presents a doctrine of extreme brutality and violent suppression of non-conformists. It is a very bad basis for morals. Many of the people who frequent this site were brought up as christians, but have thought through the issues, realized the fallacies of christianity and other religions, and have become atheists. This is not a matter of faith, but of simple and careful consideration of facts and application of reason. I hope that a more careful analysis of the facts will perhaps some day cause you and Kyle, and others still clinging to the old religion superstitions, to do the same. The world will be a better place for that.
Korgan
February 20th, 2007 at 10:28 am
Hello Frank,
One has to have faith to be an atheists in the same sense that one must have faith that the universe does not sit on the back of gigantic turtle, or faith that there are no forest elves who are perfectly adapted to hide their existence from humans, or faith that Zeus is not responsible for lightning strikes, or faith that there is no infinitesimally small teapot in orbit around the sun, etc, etc, etc…
Oh and I agree with you about Stalin in a sense. He is not responsible for more atrocities than Christianity, just more murders. His relatively few atrocities were so much more effective than the many, many Christian ones. The reasons for this are varied. For one, the planet was much more densely populated in the last century, so there are more potential victims. Two, modern transportation enable quicker concentration of enemies then ever before. Three, the tools of atrocities are FAR more effective in the last century than any other time in the past. Four, modern communication enabled the coordination of Stalin’s atrocities.
Had their been modern tools of war and a modern number of people, the Crusades would have wrought much more destruction that Stalin. Also, the Spanish Inquisition, which lasted 350 years, over 10 times that of the reign of Stalin. Imagine what they would have done with modern tools and populations. This is not to mention the Medieval Inquisition, the Portuguese Inquisition, the Roman Inquisition, various Papal Inquisitions, the Puritan Inquisitions (witch burnings), and so forth.
February 20th, 2007 at 10:39 am
Actually i’m the one who made the remark about atheists and killing. I’ll get back to it later.
While it is indeed impossible to prove there is no god (it being inherently undisprovable) It is very possible to say “there is no reason to believe in god”
I see no reason to believe in (the Christian) god because there is no evidence whatsoever to support his existence. (no, a pile of old, oft translated, heavily edited, writings, whose original authoirity is sketchy at best, is not evidence, or heavily circumstantial at best)
To state that the burden of disproving god is on the atheists is wrong, seeing how god is Undisprovable. It is like asking to disprove the flying teapot or flying spaghetti monster.
I’ll state yet again that science is NOT used to disprove god, it is only used against argument for god.
Now, for the Atheist eradication of christians.
I don’t see how you can compare the governmental action of a single man to a Christian decapitating a Muslim heretic in the crusades or a Muslim blowing himself to kill a Christian infidel.
While it is true that Stalin was responsible for over 100.000 deaths, you can’t say it was an ‘atheist jihad/crusade’
February 20th, 2007 at 10:40 am
note, I’m not saying killing christians or muslims is a good idea. I don’t condone Stalin’s purges.
February 20th, 2007 at 11:27 am
Ok. Since when did Stalin kill in name of atheism? If anything, he was killing in his own name. As it would be no secret to you, he though he was a God, or at least a prophet. As a person who spent some time of a life in communistic regime, I can say it was a dogma equal Christianity.
So there is conclusion: communism was a religion of soviet republics. This makes Stalin a religious freak.
P.S. Guys, guys! Stalin wasn’t halve as evil as Lenin. Remember that dude? He started all that up around 1917.
February 20th, 2007 at 11:44 am
Um, I Are, Lenin was not responsible for anywhere near the the number of deaths as Stalin. Lenin may have built the scaffolding by providing political theory and leading the communist revolution, but Stalin provided the rope and gathered the necks to hang.
Anyway, the fact does remain Stalin was an atheist. You and Alcari are right in that his murders were self-motivated, not a-religiously motivated and that his atheism is ancillary to his crimes. I should have pointed that out as well in my last post.
February 20th, 2007 at 11:53 am
To all,
The point I was making about Stalin killing is just a point that human beings are capable of killing in the name of whatever they believe in. The fact that “Christians” went to war during the crusades or perpetrated the inqusitions does not prove that Christianity practiced as instructed by Christ and his Apostles is wrong or incorrect. These people were led by greed and ignorance to line their pockets and Church coffers much like a lot of the TV evangelists do today, only the TV evangelists are not killing people through butchery. It is easy to deflect the argument and muddle it in the sin of mankind, but the real argument isn’t the sins of mankind, but whether or not God is real.
February 20th, 2007 at 12:42 pm
Hello again Frank,
Thanks for the reply. I’d also like your thoughts about atheist faith that I made in #74. I know your online time is limited, so I’ll understand if you can’t get to it.
“The point I was making about Stalin killing is just a point that human beings are capable of killing in the name of whatever they believe in.”
I can agree with that. People kill in the name of Christianity, Islam, Power, Wealth, and many others. But atheism has never (to my knowledge) been used as the justification while religion has. That is our point.
“The fact that “Christians†went to war during the crusades or perpetrated the inqusitions does not prove that Christianity practiced as instructed by Christ and his Apostles is wrong or incorrect.”
I.e. they were not TRUE Christians. This is the classic No True Scotsman fallacy. We can just as easily claim that Stalin was not a true atheist. Also, I’d argue that American Fundamentalists do not practice Christianity as instructed by Jesus and his Apostles. Jesus spent almost all of his preaching time talking about caring for the sick and poor, the dangers of power, wealth, and authority, and loving one another in general. These are liberal ideas, not conservative ones. The way American Fundies would have you believe is that Jesus talked about nothing but the sins of the flesh, fighting homosexuality, letting authority decide everyone’s morality, and interpreting Genesis literally. Fundamentalists are not TRUE Christians ;)
February 20th, 2007 at 12:48 pm
Korgan,
I have yet to be given a valid argument to argue. So far, the only thing I have heard from you all are statements saying the Bible is wrong and that science proves it. There have also been insults to my intelligence and reasoning capability thrown out. Alcari actually came very close to a good argument about “there is no reason to believe in God” until he throws out the typical insults about a “…a pile of old, oft translated, heavily edited, writings, whose original authoirity is sketchy at best, is not evidence, or heavily circumstantial at best)” which has no factual basis, but only opinionated rejection. He does understand however, that you can’t disprove a negative.
Korgan’s entire statement is just insults with no basis of fact to support his argument, which is really no argument at all. The morals of this country were founded on the morals in the Bible that he states “…is a very bad basis for morals.” Well Krogan, what is a good basis for morals?
On what facts do you base this statement on? “Science has clearly shown both testaments of the bible to be ficticious.” What scientific evidence is there that the Bible is ficticious?
What leads you to believe this statement? “Furthermore, the bible presents a doctrine of extreme brutality and violent suppression of non-conformists.”
Am I to assume by the following statement that you feel I am not smart? “The bible is nothing more than a collection of old superstitions that smart people have gradually thrown aside over the past few centuries.”
I am not here to be offensive. Actually I just stumbled across this site while doing some research on scientific facts supporting creationism as outlined in the Bible. I saw a bunch of non-Christians ganging up on and honest young Christian and thought I’d jump in for a brief debate here. Thus far I’ve found nothing to debate.
February 20th, 2007 at 1:17 pm
Sid, I have to disagree with you on point of Stalin and Lenin. As you sad before, with help of means you can reach greater results. Lenin did not have that much power and control to have such mass murdering. But he is personally responsible for killing most “intelligence” in what to be USSR. He build foundation for Stalin, and very strong one. Plus Staling had small help, Hitler, WWII. Nice excuse to legitimacy massacre and starve millions. Though starving started in the beginning 1930, but there was excuse as well. Need to feed Red Army, …
My point was not who kill more, but who was more evil. It is not a good practice to let initiators slide just because the followers are done so much more.
February 20th, 2007 at 1:27 pm
I don’t know, I Are. Supposing that I started a fight. Others jump in and before you know it, a guy pulls a knife and kills someone. Am I more evil than the murderer for starting the fight? Perhaps I even wanted to kill the person when I started the fight, but I didn’t have the means. Is this analogy even apt? I’m interested in your thoughts.
Oh, and I wasn’t letting Lenin slide. You and I are talking about degrees of evil. In my analogy above, I’d expect to be held responsible for starting the fight, but not for the murder.
February 20th, 2007 at 2:12 pm
I certainly like theses last coments better. Seems like I finnaly found a friend. To tell you the truth I did not know this site was a bunch of scientists I just stumbled on to the humor part of it and exchanged a few e-mails with gasmanso. He asked me to write an article so I did. I never claimed to be incredibly brilliant. I have a lot of stuff to do during the day so i don’t spend more than an hour studying a day. But I must ask one question and it is not condesending i am just curious. If there is no God and we are just here to live and die. What is the purpose. Everything you build or achieve we all fade in time. Your house no matter how well built will eventualy go away. I understand about doing right to do right but years from now it does not mean a thing the world will still be lieng and killing each other religious and unreligious people. No matter what new inventions we create it is human nature to be greedy and hatefull. Put two babies together and a toy in the middle they will fight over it. How miserable of an existence would that be knowing that we can not change the evil traits that can be biologicaly passed down if im not mistaken. And although I do obey god I would still do good because it is good. If god was capable of evil I would not obey. But that is not the case The bible teaches a message of self sacrafice. When you give of yourself to make sure everyone else is better off that is good. It teaches to put yourself last and everyone else first. I find no evil in that. The only time we get those grey areas people talk about is when we are unwilling to totaly sacrafice ourselfs for the sake of others. Oh and as for the comments on me not bieng a writter. I’ll admit I really don’t give a crap about grammer as long as it is easily understandable. I just want to deliver a message in what i write. I want to get my point across. I don’t write for the sake of bieng gramaticly correct I write because I have somthing to say
February 20th, 2007 at 2:14 pm
Oh and i don’t lie so i would prefer not to be called a lier. I have not resorted to mud slinging and i would appreciate the same respect.
February 20th, 2007 at 2:39 pm
“If there is no God and we are just here to live and die. What is the purpose.”
That, in my opinion, is why many religious people became religious people in the first place. The idea that there is no purpose is indeed a scary one. When you’re dead, you’re dead, it would seem (if you don’t believe in God). So, why live? Why do anything if it’ll be gone?
Well I can’t