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Behold The Power Of Faith
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“Behold the power of evil people” would be a much more appropriate title for this montage. Perhaps, gasmonso, you might like to reflect on the words of those who, I assume, hold similar humanistic view to your own:
‘Theists and atheists who spend their time trying to denounce the other side by arguing that “tyrant W was an atheist,” “racist murderer X was a theist,” “insidious philosophy Y presumes there is no God,” or “destructive dogma Z is based on the Bible,” are typically engaging in a classic act of bigotry — the demonization of an entire class of highly varied people on the basis of the actions of a few extremists. In the process, they insult and polarize the good people on each side, and trivialize the comparatively minor, yet still dangerous, elements within.’
(From http://www.infidels.org/secular_web/feature/1999/violence.html)
As Steven Weinberg put it:
“(Religion) With or without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.”
Faith is like fire. Used properly, it can make your life more pleasant. Used recklessly, it threatens to consume you.
“(Religion) With or without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.â€
It’s an interesting quote, but it’s not a tenable proposition, as I see it anyway.
Behind every person doing evil in the name of religion/Communism/Flying Spaghetting Monsterism/ is… an evil person! It doesn’t matter how you frame it, you can’t ultimately ascribe an evil act to anything but the person doing it. Not to say that all possible ideologies are equivalent or deserving of equal merit (that’s another issue), but the axiom is that the ultimate responsibility for an act of observable evil rests further down the framework than at an ideological level. Which was the whole point of my original post.
And anyway, who gets to define the threshold between what is considered to be an “evil” and a “good” person? In my own Christian worldview, there are no people who can claim to own any intrinsic “goodness”. What of the purely naturalistic worldview? Ultimately, it seems to me that the arbitrary will of the strong takes precedence, which is a terrifying prospect.
(I can forsee many entailments and counter-arguments arising from what I’ve said, especially in the last paragraph there, all of which are worthy of discussion. I guess the point about the responsibility for doing evil was the main one I wanted to make.)
Doh… my tags got eaten. After “Flying Spaghetti Monsterism/” it should say (insert ideology here). How about a preview button gasmonso? :)
Dear Gasmonso,
its been a while since i have posted but i have to tell you anything with Gary jules doing a mad world themed music video gets an A+ but it touched me i wished the youth of the nation could see this….Long live the life that lives for no other life…
On the other hand, one quickly approaches “no real scotsman”-territory if one always says “it’s because he is an evil person, not because he is [whatever]“.
Two examples:
Stalin did reign totalitarian. Therefore, he is your run-of-the-mill despot, but his ideology was one of power, not communism or socialism. That he called it such doesn’t make it true in the same way as he called the USSR democratic.
On the other hand, when Hitler blamed the jews for all the world’s problems and killed them he did this out of a tradition of hate which pervades christianity since its inception. Therefore, he was a good christian in the view of the world of those times.
Technically, when one subscribes to an ideology, it means he holds that ideology right, especially its crimes. Of course, in practice this means that they just claim that those crimes never happened (think holocaust denial). Yet in any case one has to hold them responsible for the crimes commited in the name of his ideology, for he will either commit them or stand idly by when his brothers in faith commit them.
As an example: There are two kinds of atheists: On the one hand there are those who do not believe in god because their ideology tells them so (e.g. the so-called communism). On the other there are those who found out themselves that there is no god.
The former will follow a tyrant as they did in “communism”, while the latter will not. The difference is simple: The former follow an ideology, while the latter do think for themselves. Thus the former will do whatever the ideology demands from them (and we saw time and again what that is), while the others will do what they consider right – which may be wrong from another perspective, but my point is that if one follows any ideology he will be a bad person, no matter which ideology it is.
And I second the request for a preview button.
Ok, I am looking into adding a “preview” button for the comments:) I should have it up sometime this week for testing. You’ll know it’s there when you see it :)
gasmonso
“On the other hand, when Hitler blamed the jews for all the world’s problems and killed them he did this out of a tradition of hate which pervades christianity since its inception. Therefore, he was a good christian in the view of the world of those times.”
No he did it because he was as crazy as a shithouse rat. The idea that Hitler did this out of any sort of mainstream Christian belief needs to be sincerely explained to me.
“Therefore, he was a good christian in the view of the world of those times.”
Also what Christian in those times thought that a wholesale destruction of the Jews was a peachy idea? Consider carefully that American Christians (for good or for ill) in that time were responsible for helping re-establish Israel.
That was a powerful piece that really puts it into perspective. Thanks for posting it gasmonso.
Ben: When you spend your life following a fairy tale your grasp of reality becomes tenuous at best. Sometimes you have the harmless crackpots that say the Earth doesn’t spin or that their tattooed preacher who once claimed himself Christ is actually the Anti-Christ.
Then you have the hate spewing, vile, and despicable ones that kill gays, blow up buildings, and abuse their children in the name of “God”. You get mothers with such a warped world view they beat their sons bloody for masturbating and fathers who would rather get the news their son is dead than that their son is gay. While not all of these people will become killers and despots they are poisoning the minds of their children with these lies and fairy tales, creating the next line of serial killers, neo-nazis, and terrorists.
Religion is toxic to society. It causes people to hate each other, themselves, and anyone not like them. I grew up Mormon and know first hand the hate and venom so-called Christians are capable of if your beliefs don’t align with theirs.
Scott:
| From Mein Kampf |
Hitler wrote: “I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord..” As a boy, Hitler attended to the Catholic church and experienced the anti-Semitic attitude of his culture. In his book, Mein Kampf, Hitler reveals himself as a fanatical believer in God and country. This text presents selected quotes from the infamous anti-Semite himself.
In actuality, your “Christianity” is simply a bastardized version of Catholicism (like most North American deviations). So, Hitler’s deviation is aptly termed a “Christian” religion, as it fits so nicely alongside the rest of the whackjobs who beleive in a “version” of another religion.
Ben:
Religion has give people a free ride to kill/rape and destroy countless civilizations throughout history. Hisorically, and even today it is the proverbial “excuse” given to soldiers about to die/kill for their leaders.
Concious followers of ANY religion, have given up the right to be judged as individuals. You call yourself a beleiver? Then regardless of your “interpretation” of it’s message, you spread this disease to others; they on the other hand, may end up being the guy who “cleanses” people with the shotgun of the lord.
Well put and deftly argued Shaze. I was about to make a similar argument but you put it far more clearly than I would have.
I seem to be called a “christian hater” on here kind of often, but that is just not true. I am a christian fearer. More accurately, I am an organized religion fearer. There is nothing in this world more scary than a religious person that thinks what they are going to do is for god, because there are absolutely NO boundaries at that point. Anything goes.
I’m a Christian hater; and normally I don’t think hate accomplishes anything, but in this case I think it’s well justified.
I’ll take any opportunity to treat any religion person poorly; so long as I feel it’s aptly reflective of their chosen path. Violent-Nazi religions? Burn their churches and make love to their children.
Come, now, Shaze. Love the Christian, hate the Christianity ;)
I find myself agreeing with micheal, religion becomes a real ptoblem when people use it to justify their insane ideas.
add to that the fact that when you say “I did this because I feel like it” you’ll get far less support then when you say “God told me to do it”
Sid:
You know, many aspects of Communism are great in theory…
As soon as you give man open interpretation of a good idea, it soon becomes a really bad idea.
The comments on this video have reinforced for me that you don’t need to be religious to be a freak (in the sense of this blog’s title).
Shaze, they’re only great if you don’t think to hard about it. That which is good dor the nation is not always good for the individual. That which is good for all(or a great majority of) individuals, is good for the nation.
Shaze, I have no doubt that Hitler thought he was doing God’s will. I also have no doubt that he was insane. While the two are not necessarily mutually exclusive, in this case I don’t believe that he was doing God’s will and anyone that does believe that the Holocaust was motivated by adherence to the Christian faith needs to back that up.
“in this case I don’t believe that he was doing God’s will and anyone that does believe that the Holocaust was motivated by adherence to the Christian faith needs to back that up”
It doesn’t matter what YOU beleive in this case, it only matters what Christianity allows people to “beleive”. Christianity ALONE has provided the path for pedophiles, psycopaths and thousands of cults the world over; the “wide interpritable” message that indoctrinates the Christian faith has given cause to rape, kill and fuck what I’m sure is in the millions, of innocent people.
This loose list of morals seem to even overpower the “only” positive messages in your reprinted versions of the “bible”. Superceding love thy neighbor and fogiveness, is Judgement and Segregation. Besides, there are lots of ways that anyone with half a brain could tie the Christian religion to Hitler’s regime.
And by being even slightly affiliated or supporting any religious ideal, bumps you right up there with Hitler in my opinion. Even worse, cause you people don’t want change, only to “save” others from the inevitable.
“I’m a Christian hater; and normally I don’t think hate accomplishes anything, but in this case I think it’s well justified.”
So hate is justifiable if you say so? Sounds arbitrary to me. What set of standards do you live by, oh enlightened one?
You don’t have a clue what you’re saying. It lacks logic, reason, and any sort of coherence. Why would anyone listen to you when you’re clearly an extremist yourself. Your “religion” (whatever it may be) makes *you* willing to murder. The Bible says that if you hate in your heart, you have already committed murder. Did you know you’re an extremist and a murderer? Please explain to me, how are you *any* different from those you accuse?
Aaaaah . . . but let’s not forget Mother Theresa. She was a good woman, who did good things (establishing hospitals for the poor, for example). That her ostensible religion (which, according to recently disclosed diaries, she fell away from towards the end) was Christianity doesn’t really matter in the final analysis, which is summed up in my second sentence. And, yes, I know that there seem to be twenty Torquemadas for every Mother Theresa; but it doesn’t change the fact that there are good people out there who are religious.
Mother Teresa’s “goodness” is debatable.
Her ideas on poverty were more than just helping those in it, but rather helping more and more people INTO desperate poverty because she saw that as a more pious existence. Pity that not everyone has the resources of the church to help them when times are tough like she did, or that extreme poverty isnt actually a healthy or safe way to live.
Christopher Hitchens has a great ‘smackdown’ chapter for her in his ‘god is not great book’
Sure, but that misses Kurt’s point. There are good people that are also religious (most of them, most of the time, actually). I’d go further and say that some are inspired to do good by their religion. Denying or obscuring these facts is futile and can be counter-productive. What I argue for is recognition that most non-religious people are good as well. And that many are inspired by non-religious things to do good. From their I might point out the harm that some aspects of religion cause and try to persuade the believer to re-evaluate and/or reinterpret those aspects of their religion.
I read (in some popular science mag, don’t quote me on it) that the percentage of charitable* european christians is significantly lower then the percentage of christians in society as a whole. The reverse was true for atheist and buddhists though.
* charity workers, large donators, volunteers etc
Although such things don’t really matter. It’s often the case that religious people (especially christians) make it seems that only religion can make you do good. And that’s just a blatant lie, just because you don’t see atheist hospitals (they’re called hospitals) doesn’t mean that atheists are the scum of the earth.
I would agree that encouraging poverty to be “pious” is nonsense, as with the case of the “back to nature” types who don’t understand what a loss of all technology would actually entail. But Sidfaiwu and Alcari both touch on my point: helping others is a good thing, whether from religious or humanistic reasons. Of course, such help should be more along the lines of “teaching a man to fish” rather than “giving a man a fish.” The more educated and more prosperous we can make the world, the better it will be.
Of course, but having read some of Mother Teresa’s actual words, I think a lot of people who think she was this saint on earth may change their minds about her! Despite this ‘aura’ built around her, she was certainly no saint!! I mean, how many of us actually know anything about her beyond the ‘image’ or cliched references to her ‘being a good person’ etc etc etc?
I think the sooner we can break the stranglehold view that ‘Good act = Must be religion inspired’ the better.
Let us give the Glory in everything we do in this life for the Glory of God. The faith we have is in Jesus and by His grace we are saved.
“she was certainly no saint!!” that is true and we all fall and are sinners. We all fall short of the Glory of God.cyberdude!
I never said she was a saint, I merely said that helping the poor is a good thing. She most certainly created hospitals. That is a good thing. And I have never said that a “good act = must be religion inspired.” Quite the contrary. I merely point out that the converse is not universally true (which would be a “bad act = must be religion inspired,” for those keeping score). Religous types and non-religous types cannot be painted with a single stroke of the brush. Each must be judged according to acts. I merely point out that there have been people of all faiths, and of no faith, who have been “good folk,” doing the best they could to help improve the world by helping others. Others have been complete turds.
Kurt, let me introduce you, this is hyrocket, and this is basically the only thing he can say in a post.
Oh, I’m sorry, irishthunder. I was actually responding to Jayman. I guess I need to address my posts more clearly! I’ve lurked here for a month or so, and I am well aware of hyrocket. Living in a Bible Belt state, I long, long ago (gee, what, 28 years or so ago, I guess) learned about the “keep repeating, keep repeating” school of discourse; I’ve developed techniques to not let it get under my skin unless it gets personal. Thank you, though, for your post. I’ve admired a great deal of what you have written here, and appreciate your sense of humor. Particularly your support of others when faced with that kind of thing.
sweet, another bible belter, im stuck here in north carolina(sid’s somewhere around here too). as far as hyrocket goes, you couldnt be more right, debating a fellow like him is like trying to tackle a brick wall.(i say that, having attempted both, after heavy drinking of course)
Indiana (history: corn and hogs) here, Irishthunder. Although we have the best children’s museum in the world (not a dinosaur-riding cowboy statue in the whole building), a truly outstanding senator (Dick Lugar), and a couple of very cool cities (our capital and college towns), the boonies can get very, well, boonie-ish. I too have learned that drink and discussion only goes well when everyone agrees. And brick walls don’t negotiate worth a damn.
I must say, as significantly as I enjoyed reading what you had to say, I couldnt help but lose interest after a while. Its as if you had a great grasp around the topic matter, but you forgot to include your readers. Perhaps you should think about this from far more than one angle. Or maybe you shouldnt generalise so significantly. Its better if you think about what others may have to say instead of just heading for a gut reaction to the subject. Think about adjusting your very own believed process and giving others who may read this the benefit of the doubt.
Dude, please tell me that youre going to write a lot more. I notice you havent written another weblog for a while (Im just catching up myself). Your blog is just too important to become missed. Youve acquired so much to say, such knowledge about this subject it would be a shame to see this blog disappear. The internet needs you, man!