Pastor Ben Gibert of the Detroit World Outreach Church in Redford Michigan spoke those words. Remember them well.
When I read that sentence, “God surrounds the faithful with beautiful things”, it got me thinking. What exactly are those beautiful things anyways? Was Pastor Gibert referring to your loved-ones? Possibly. Or maybe he was talking about the beauty of nature. Ok maybe not. Maybe these beautiful things refer to the people, places, and things you see everyday and under the light of God they appear beautiful.
I had you going there for a second didn’t I? This is a Christian mega-chuch pastor we’re dealing with so money is God and God is money. The most beautiful thing to Pastor Ben Gibert is his crazy pimped out 11,000-square-foot $3.65 million dollar mansion. Oh what’s that parked in the driveway? Ah it’s just a $50,000 Cadillac Escalade provided by the church. What’s even more beautiful is that the church conveniently purchased it for him thus making it tax exempt. Oh praise be to Jesus! Now those are some beautiful things damnit!
While most of the residents weren’t too concerned with the Pastor’s opulent lifestyle, one individual offered their wisdom:
“They could buy a very, very nice home out here for half a million,” she said. “Can you imagine how many miracles you could perform, how many people you could help with the $3 million left over?”
Original story here.
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- Existence Of Jesus On Trial
March 19th, 2007 at 11:33 am
That’s it, nor more wasting time educating the children of America, I am becoming a preacher.
Anyone else find this amusing “Can you imagine how many miracles you could perform, how many people you could help with the $3 million left over?â€
I mean, does god really need money to perform miracles?
March 19th, 2007 at 12:29 pm
I’m pretty sure Jesus had a Ferrari and a toilet made out of gold, so I see no contraditions here at all. Move along.
March 19th, 2007 at 12:30 pm
Oops, I noticed I made a mistake: There were no toilets back then, so it must have been a chamber pot made out of gold or something. Whew, glad I caught that one :)
March 19th, 2007 at 12:42 pm
Matthew 19:24
“And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.”
Didn’t Jesus, the center of the whole religion, say this himself? There’s a hell of a lot more anti-wealth statements in the Gospels; you know, the core books of Christianity.
I can’t help but to want to scream, “Hypocrite, hypocrite, hypocrite” not only every time I hear about the wealth of many evangelists, but also every time I see a little Jesus fish on an SUV.
Q: What would Jesus drive?
A: A donkey.
March 19th, 2007 at 12:49 pm
Always the cynic Sidfaiwu. Jesus only rode a donkey because there were no Cadilacs back then. Rest assured, Jesus would have driven a pimped out Caddy with gold rims, hydraulics, a thumping stereo, and a plush purple interior. You can bet on that ;)
gasmonso
March 19th, 2007 at 1:35 pm
Like I said: golden chamber pot. Also, I think the picture put up there along with this article is Biblically accurate. I mean, what else is heaven but one big mansion in the sky with fizzy drinks and hoes for the taking, right? Why else would people do good things?
March 19th, 2007 at 1:41 pm
I was pondering this the other night. Jesus was born to a poor family (even for the time) correct? Then went on to become a carpenter until around the age of 20.
This brought to my mind a few questions,
1: Would he have been able to hold feasts for his apostles and travel as much had he not been a cult leader?
2: Would the apostles be willing to give up that influx of admiration/cash from early cult members even under threat of death? (sticking by the story ’till death was a point one LDS missionary used to try and convert me)
If any of you have things that could clear this up for me it would be appreciated, because it really seems like even he didn’t practice what he preached. Granted he wasn’t overly wealthy that we know of, but it does seem likely he was provided for better than if he had maintained his career as a carpenter. Also is it my misconception that he was born into poverty? Since theoreticly he was a decendant of royalty, though far removed.
March 19th, 2007 at 1:54 pm
Rest assured, Jesus would have driven a pimped out Caddy with gold rims, hydraulics, a thumping stereo, and a plush purple interior. You can bet on that ;)
Yeah, but would he holy-ghost ride his whip?
March 19th, 2007 at 2:49 pm
Listen to you guys, bad mouthing a preacher for setting a good example to his clergy.
The only way an individual can obtain financial freedom in your country is to exploit the many. I’m sure each of you would like a X Billion dollar mansion, or at the very least, enough money to see your loved ones happy. Whether it’s stock, investment or just plain ol’ marketing; there is no “real” money working for other people.
So why shouldn’t you rape your country and it’s people for all they’re worth? Everyone else is doing it. And here you sit, expecting that this man should suffer for the sake of his flock. He is a leader, and as far as I see it; is inspiring his followers to either wake up, or follow suite.
March 19th, 2007 at 3:03 pm
Hello Shaze,
We are not bad mouthing this preacher for the pursuit of wealth, but for his hypocrisy.
“So why shouldn’t you rape your country and it’s people for all they’re worth?”
The answer to that is simple: wealth is not the only goal that is worth pursuing. I seek a balance between living for myself (via acquiring wealth) and living for others (acting altruistically).
“Everyone else is doing it.”
Everyone else is Christian, especially in my state (NC). ‘everyone else is doing it’ has never been a good reason for doing anything. If something is worth doing, there are other reasons for doing so.
March 19th, 2007 at 4:32 pm
Benny Hinn has the hottest $300k off-shore racing boat parked in front of his mansion. He only takes it out for baptisms and during spring break (to help convert partying college heathens with the healing powers of supercharged MerCruiser)… I think Moses used his cigarette boat to part the Red Sea.
Enter MoTown Moses. Fled from Gemorrah (a suburb in East Detroit) to his new, tax exempt, tree lined hood in the White Hills of Redford Twshp. All by the grace of his faithful check books. And YES, Redford is next to Godliness. So, it all makes sense.
Blessed be thy ultra-pimp Escalade.
Hold only to God thy hedges and super sweet fountains.
Maketh his offspring unto Ivy League schools.
Bedeck his wife with frankensense, mirth and Prada.
Jesus Kryst, I could go on… But I will spare thee…
March 19th, 2007 at 5:44 pm
Sid:
Sarcasm aside :), you’re saying that all leaders should be able to equate their lifestyles and hardships with those they’re trying to help? That kind of hypocracy? Or maybe the fact that by offering them solutions to their problems, he is in fact becoming one of their problems. (Financially at least)
“I seek a balance between living for myself (via acquiring wealth) and living for others (acting altruistically).”
Couldn’t you conceivably live for others by aquiring wealth for them? Wouldn’t that(and I’m paraphrasing here) also be defined as altruistic?
Teaching the congregation to be greedy themselves; or at the least more concious of their leaders’, seems like positives either way.
“‘everyone else is doing it’ has never been a good reason for doing anything.”
Really? How bout Breathing, Fucking and Sleeping? And how do you know something’s not worth doing unless you try it?
March 19th, 2007 at 5:56 pm
Hey Shaze,
Nah, I mean these televangelists preach that wealth is evil, yet they accumulate wealth for themselves.
“Couldn’t you conceivably live for others by aquiring wealth for them? Wouldn’t that(and I’m paraphrasing here) also be defined as altruistic?”
Not necessarily. If everyone only worked to acquire wealth exclusively for others, we’d have a kind of Randian Dystopia, like in Atlas Shrugged. Like I said, a balance is better.
Lastly, I breath, fuck, and sleep for very good reasons (I want to live, it feels so damn good, and I get tired are the prime reasons, respectively). The least of which is because other people breath, fuck, and sleep. If everyone were to suddenly stop breathing, fucking, and sleeping, I would continue regardless. Except for fucking, since there would be no one left to fuck if everyone else stopped breathing :P.
March 19th, 2007 at 6:11 pm
@Shaze
The only way an individual can obtain financial freedom in your country is to exploit the many…..there is no “real†money working for other people.
Once we cure the religious freaks of their imaginary friend delusion, we should start disabusing the business world of *thier* imaginary friends - don’t you find it a bit wierd that in most contracts these days one “person” is just a legal fiction - a company - an imaginary friend for the business man that we all pretend exists? Including the courts?
Most corporate structure is just a shell game designed to cut out as many people as possible - I think someone has to GPL the corporation :)
April 6th, 2007 at 4:01 am
As a catholic living in Wales Uk I am amazed at how far removed from the simple truth Religion in the USA has become.
Religion there seems to be run on fear, greed and peoples insecurities.
Could these people really give up everything and follow jesus? I don’t think so!
April 6th, 2007 at 4:57 am
“Religion there seems to be run on fear, greed and peoples insecurities.”
yah, know some religion that doesn’t?
April 7th, 2007 at 8:43 pm
Yeah materialism is like cake, you only need a slice to keep you satisfied. Too much and you’ll feel sick. But evil permeates through ALL walls, religous or not. That’s why preists can be pedeaphiles and athiests can save millions of childrens from poverty. I’m spiritual and see hypocrital “Chrisitians” every day. That doesn’t mean I’m like that. I will be very rich (I’m an investment banker), because that’s the only way I can help others. My family is athiest, but I have a strong faith in God, because I’ve had tooo many spiritual experiences to ignore God.
April 8th, 2007 at 3:06 pm
Boris,
Maybe You are right to say that the majority of religion is run on fear, greed and peoples insecurities.
From my perspective here in the UK in 2007,religions such as the Catholic church are definitely not growing.
It doesn’t pay to be a priest here in monetary terms. people tend to go to Church because they choose to and it is nolonger a fear thing.
The Christian movement in the USA is definitely scary!
July 14th, 2007 at 1:54 am
the sad things is that you people are so lost that you even make such stupid comments, i would believe that you probaly don’t go to church and don’t even own a bible!! Or maybe to just push the envelope you do both and when you are at work you probably sit up reading People,Us,Hustler, Star, playboy, national Enquirer etc. etc etc and don’t complain about the lavish lifestyle they are living just because of pathetic people lke all of you whom life totally SUCKS and your pleasures come from complaing and being mad at everyone else ..God Bless You all and God Bless DWO because we are REACHING THE WORLD AND TAKING DETROIT IN JESUS NAME !!
July 14th, 2007 at 8:58 am
We’ve been getting a lot of these “you guys are stupid because you don’t believe like me”, though lynn kindly adds “oh, and you are immoral too.”
Notice how lynn completely ignores the content of the post and comments and skips directly to insulting the writers? It’s nice to know that most of us are living counter examples to lynn’s stereotype of non-believers. It exposes her comment for what it is: blind hatred based on pre-judging people solely on their beliefs.
lynn, if you came back to read responses to you comment (which I doubt), I have a question for you. How do you reconcile your pastor’s opulent lifestyle with verses like Matthew 19:24. In that verse Jesus himself, you know, your Lord, said that wealth is evil. In fact, he spent much of his preaching on the evils of greed and wealth. Did you not know that? Does your pastor ignore that inconvenient detail in pursuit of his greed?
July 14th, 2007 at 11:08 am
Actually Matthew 19 is also the excuse many evangelist use for getting all their money and possessions. The whole chapter is about a young wealthy man asking how to be a good christian.
It shows what jesus thought were the commandments and he only had six of them. The young man followed all the six commandments so he wondered could he do more and jesus told him to,
So to be a perfect one has to get rid of the wealth and that is what many evangelist say, ‘I am not perfect.’, and they do revel in their imperfection.
Better chapter and verse from the Matthew against hoarding wealth would be 6:24-26, in my opinion.
Mammon is the evil by the bible and the god for modern christians as anyone who has witnessed the, oh so devout christian pulling out their wallet in a church can testify. They they lavishly present their donations for all to see while acting like they are trying to hide what they are giving.
As a comment for Lynn, try to understand Matthew 6:23.
November 3rd, 2007 at 8:44 pm
It is a shame that this quote lives on the internet.
Pastor Ben never said it (”beatiful things”) It was a gross misquote by the newspaper that may end up in court. Truth is- the church got a great deal on a property that allowed them to protect their Pastor from threats and give his family some much needed privacy. Due to the housing market the church was able to buy the home with little or no money out of pocket and make a significant gain in equity. They are using this gain to begin a program to aid low income families buy homes. The escalade was bought on a discount using Pastor Ben’s auto industry benefits. Get the whole story.
November 3rd, 2007 at 9:23 pm
Truth123 you should change your handle to excuses101. You are atypical of modern day Christiansd. Every time someone shines the light of truth on your sin you find an excuse for it. Especially if it involves one of your cult leaders like this shark in Redford.
Truth 123 Says:
November 3rd, 2007 at 8:44 pm
It is a shame that this quote lives on the internet.
Pastor Ben never said it (â€beatiful thingsâ€) It was a gross misquote by the newspaper that may end up in court. Truth is- the church got a great deal on a property that allowed them to protect their Pastor from threats and give his family some much needed privacy. Due to the housing market the church was able to buy the home with little or no money out of pocket and make a significant gain in equity. They are using this gain to begin a program to aid low income families buy homes. The escalade was bought on a discount using Pastor Ben’s auto industry benefits. Get the whole story.
November 3rd, 2007 at 9:25 pm
CHRISTIANS HAVE NO CREDIBILITY
Back in the days of the early church, the disciples, the followers of Jesus, had a great deal of credibility. God would perform miracles and utter prophetic words that would come to pass, using the disciples. Today’s Christian church leaders have no such giftings so they seek and attain financial wealth for that is the way they attempt to garner respect from the world in general. Christian leaders, pastors, televangelists,radio stations, and book writers are building their own little kingdoms, measuring their spirituality by the size of their perspective audiences. They fly (usually first class) around the world attending, “conferences†, dine at finer restaurants, and live in very comfortable, oft times very expensive homes, and in the case of one mega Christian church leader in Texas, a mansion with servants!
In spite of all this and more, the Christian leaders of today have zero credibility in the Kingdom of God, and with true seekers of eternal life and the gospel of truth. If you examine with me the life and attitude of the early disciples of Christ, you will find vast differences between them and the Christian pastors and evangelists today.
Today, becoming a “pastor†is a joke. The only requirement is that you go to an accredited, licensed school and get a piece of paper from man that states you are now a minister. Quite different from the true calling written about in the bible. Men of God prayed and sought divine guidance over the choosing of a pastor or any other office of the church. The Holy Spirit would confirm the appointment to those led by the same spirit. Also, a true biblical pastor has the responsibilities of teaching a small group of disciples the Truth of God’s word, thereby equipping them to spread that same good news to a lost world. Vastly different is today’s pastor and Christian leader, using their titles to lift themselves up in some fashion or another. Having that silly document signed by yet another false teacher in no way gives a person credibility in the Kingdom of God, and is only a facade in the world.
The old adage: you are only as good as your teacher stands strong here. Thus, you encounter multitudes of professed “Christians†who have no credibility in your sight. The reason, is that their leaders have none in the sight of our Maker. Once they stepped outside of God’s design for His church, they lost their God given anointing and confidence which comes from above. What a shame to see so many seekers turned away from the Truth as modern day pastors and evangelists strive to garner a following, not for God, but unto themselves. So often they are very gifted orators, often actually rehearsing their sermons as if in a play. Because of the talent displayed when speaking behind a pulpit, people often mistake that for an anointing from God. Then, when the same minister is caught in adultery, or stealing or whatever, the same people are devastated, many times leaving the organized gathering in disgust. That is because they followed man and not God. Today’s Christian leaders are not accountable to anyone but the regular tithers. They base their spirituality on the visual things and not the matters of the heart God speaks of. They write books, seek after lofty positions in church, go to school to attain higher “Christian†degrees and titles, start a television show, “Christian radio ministry†is one of the worst fallacies, Christian broadcasting does absolutely nothing to further the Kingdom of God, but they love your donations! Or they open a website on the internet with all the answers, so they say. It all amounts to nothing in the lives of those seeking real truth. Also, without fail somewhere along the way in every one of these so called “ministries†there will be a mention of giving money, however cleverly masked.
The only place you will find the answers is in the word of God. The only way you will find it is to study it yourselves. The only way you will understand it is to have the Holy Spirit to teach you. The only way to have Him is if the one true Christ sent from the Father sends Him to live in you. The only way to experience that is to ask Him. The way to do that is totally up to you, and between you and God. You have no need of a pastor or church group to show you the way. Do not let anyone deceive you with their twisted teachings. Topical studies, those that clip various scriptures from around the bible and paste them together are not of God. They are designed by Christian leaders whose background is in psychology and sales & marketing. If you want to know God by no means should you ask a modern day Christian. Get a version of the bible that isn’t twisted by bible scholars interpretations, and pray and ask God yourself!
(to be continued)
Excerpt from the book “Spiritual Reality†by B. E. Elias
November 3rd, 2007 at 9:31 pm
Lynn you are a self deluded follower of man. Stop using the name of the Lord in vain. In case you haven’t noticed the only people taking Detroit are the criminal element (check your crime stats—top in the nation in almost every category.) , and the church leaders for personal gain from total suckers like you. You are nothing more than a pawn & a puppet for the Mammon seeking pastors and evangelists.
lynn Says:
July 14th, 2007 at 1:54 am
the sad things is that you people are so lost that you even make such stupid comments, i would believe that you probaly don’t go to church and don’t even own a bible!! Or maybe to just push the envelope you do both and when you are at work you probably sit up reading People,Us,Hustler, Star, playboy, national Enquirer etc. etc etc and don’t complain about the lavish lifestyle they are living just because of pathetic people lke all of you whom life totally SUCKS and your pleasures come from complaing and being mad at everyone else ..God Bless You all and God Bless DWO because we are REACHING THE WORLD AND TAKING DETROIT IN JESUS NAME !!
November 3rd, 2007 at 9:32 pm
By the way Lynn, the only books I read are real old westerns, and the Bible-King James Version or the Aramaic from the Pashetta.
November 4th, 2007 at 6:42 pm
My friends, this is a good example what you can probably see without understanding scripture and the life of “never thrist again”, Alcari & Korgan, that are in the bible.
Pastor Ben Gibert, used the word of God for his own gain and you can see the gain that was in this article, worldly riches.
My friends, if you would just stop and heed Gods words you will experience the Glory and the Life that is the bible, eternal riches. What Ben did is not what God wants for your life, but riches in his son Christ Jesus.
Believe on his son Christ Jesus and you will have LIFE and never thrist again.
November 4th, 2007 at 7:33 pm
“Believe on his son Christ Jesus”
Thank you sir, i never heard anything like that before(especially living in the bible-belt). Those words have opened up my eyes….seriously, if your looking to potential sheep you may wanna try somewhere else.
November 5th, 2007 at 2:07 pm
wow micheal, meaningfull post there.
I especially love how you conclude, without ever having met me, that I somehow want something in my life. I’m completely happy with my life. I have a nice girlfriend, most of my family is great and I don’t have any problems. And guess what, I did it all myself, no divine intervention involved.
Which isn’t surprising, divine intervention never having happened before.
November 5th, 2007 at 11:27 pm
Alcari, thanks for the compliment. my friend, you might be happy, but a family member will need your help someday… besides, don’t you want to give God the glory for a wonderful family you have?
You have a nice girlfriend, until someone better looking comes alone, with more toys and steals your love of your life.
I tell you right now, that if you and your family has the truth in Christ Jesus, nothing will ever seperate that bond of truth you have in Christ Jesus.
Join me, lets take over the world for the love in Christ Jesus, Alcari & Korgan.
November 6th, 2007 at 5:21 am
erm, Micheal, you might want to look up the meaning of the words “Irony” and “Sarcasm”
It must be really depressing to be you. Always worried about that might go wrong in the future, unable to enjoy the present for yourself because you think god did it all.
Sad really.
November 6th, 2007 at 11:24 am
alcari Says:
November 5th, 2007 at 2:07 pm
wow micheal, meaningfull post there.
I especially love how you conclude, without ever having met me, that I somehow want something in my life. I’m completely happy with my life. I have a nice girlfriend, most of my family is great and I don’t have any problems. And guess what, I did it all myself, no divine intervention involved.
Which isn’t surprising, divine intervention never having happened before.
“The rain falls on the just and the unjust…”
November 6th, 2007 at 8:14 pm
Alcari, my apologise for my comment. I did not mean to say anything negative about your girlfriend. I wish you both well, long and happy friendship together.
If you knew the power of scriptures, you would take heed and seek after truth in our Lord & Saviour Christ Jesus.
Alcari, i saw a video clip of a comedian and he jokes about hell. Satan, is at work. you feel content with your life as is, but my friend there is more to this life than you think.
THE clip goes on to the end and say’s “the jews got it right and the christians are in hell”.
This is not the truth, because satan might see this a joke to fool people, but i tell you they are afraid of Christ Jesus.
satan knows the Son of God, in luke 4:34 satan knows well about Jesus… they(satan) is afraid.
Saying, let us alone; what have we to do with thee, thou Jesus of Nazareth? art thou come to destory us? I know thee who thou art, the Holy One of God.
Oh man, this so cool, the devil ask if he comes to destory us… Alcari, this was my point to my post. But I respect your stance as a non-believer, that’s all.
you said,
“Always worried about that might go wrong in the future”
I know my future, I serve my Lord & Saviour Christ Jesus. You can say i worry, but i worry for people like you, who feel they need not a Saviour and everything is great in their physical life, this is great and applaud you for this…
But, for me i bow before mt Lord the creator of heave and earth, this is my life. I fear nothing, but only the fear of our God.
Alcari, myBrother Rock is right, he is a breath of fresh air to me. I am glad he is strong to stay here and preach the truth.
This site is rich in scripture truth, which hardly no one notices… this site to me brings out the truth in scripture, but the blind do not see it.
I praise our Lord & Saviour Christ Jesus, for I preach and share the salvation that he has given me and my family.
The treasure he offers,is thru the narrow gate which few enter, But wide is the gate the everyone one enters to destruction.
Luke 4:41
And the devils also came out of many, crying out, and saying, Thou art Christ the Son of God. And he rebuking them suffered them not to speak: for they knew that he was Christ.
I must preach the kingdom of God to other cities also: for therefore am I sent.
Amen
November 8th, 2007 at 9:19 am
FALSE CONVERSIONS
One of the most prevalent and harmful problems in the modern day Christian religion today is false conversions. Some professed “Christian†gets a new convert to say the “Sinners Prayerâ€, and get baptized. Then they instruct them to “find a bible believing church and get involvedâ€. They tell the new convert what they were told, that is, now they are “savedâ€, and their salvation is sealed for eternity. In most but not all cases, the call for repentance is missing. To repent means to have a change of heart and mind. Also to turn from evil or wrongdoing & seek good. You may wonder why so many false converts would bother to join the Christian religion. There is a certain inner need for righteousness that mankind seeks. In the cult religion of Christianity, that need is satisfied. By saying their “Sinners Prayerâ€, and attending church, the hypocrite can then continue in his or her sinful state of mind. Their “righteousness†is merely worn on their sleeve for all to see while their hearts remain full of bitterness and guile. A perfect biblical example of this is found in Acts Ch 8. I will summarize the event in short; feel free to examine the account in full by reading it entirely.
In the book of Acts in the Bible, there was a man named Simon who did perform magic and wonders in the sight of the people. Simon was a man who had been deceiving the people into thinking he was righteous and God was with him. To summarize, the city was visited by one of Jesus Christ’s disciples preaching the gospel of salvation through faith in Christ. Many believed, and were baptized. This man Simon was among those who believed.
Peter, having heard his desires from his mouth said to Simon, “You have no part nor lot in this faith because your heart is not right in the sight of God.†Please keep in mind that Simon had, in effect, just said “The Sinners Prayerâ€, and was baptized in the name of Jesus, (as was the custom of the early church to baptize in His name)Acts,8:13. So you see that Simon was just like most modern day Christians in that he said a prayer and followed the procedures set forth by man, and was perfectly willing to “attend churchâ€. Peter goes on to say, “Repent, therefore of this evil of yours and beseech God that He may perhaps forgive you for the guile that is in your heart, ‘For I see that your heart is as bitter as gall and you are in the bonds of iniquityâ€. That statement and the ones from Peter preceding it really crush the modern day Christian excuses for their sin and the weak defense that claims you and I have “no right to judge…†Simon, like modern day Christians does not have “ears to hearâ€, for instead of repenting he says, “(pastor) Pray to God for me so that none of these things which you have spoken may come upon meâ€. That is another typical behavior pattern of church going Christians; they turn to the pastor for all the answers. Don’t blame the convert as the greater burden of accountability does rest upon the pastor and church leaders for accepting and encouraging all their false authority.
The best part in this passage of scripture is that having spoken the truth to Simon and falling on deaf ears, Peter and John move on, leaving the sinner in his sin just as the word says, “do not cast your pearls before swine…†They must have found it fruitless to go on fellowshipping with this man. This is exactly how we should be dealing with sinners IN churches today. “Those outside the church God judges, remove the wicked man from yourselvesâ€.
Today’s Christian, in order to claim salvation by the “Sinner’s Prayer†will say that Peter was referring to a specific sin on Simon’s part, the desire to purchase the gift of the Holy Spirit. They will manipulate that passage to still give credence to the act of saying a prayer and being baptized as a way to eternal life. Peter is very clear that the prayer and baptism in themselves meant nothing! He tells Simon he needed to repent, not for a sin but because he never really did repent for his life of sin. Prayer and baptism without true repentance are fruitless in the Kingdom of God. To repent means to have a change of heart and mind. People in Christian churches today are the same as they ever were, with hearts full of guile, and bitter as gall. That is why you see so many professed Christians who behave and live nothing like the believers in the bible. Do not puzzle over this or wonder how this can be, for indeed they truly “have no part nor lot in this faithâ€, just like Simon. Jesus Christ Himself said, “Many will say to Me on judgment day, ‘Lord, Lord’, and I will say, ‘Flee from Me lawbreakers and doers of iniquity, I never knew youâ€. He was referring to these professed Christians. That’s right, so many of your hypocrite neighbors may be going to church but they aren’t going to heaven. Again and again we see why Christians make little or no sense to the world. They are constantly attempting to tell you about God’s kingdom and they don’t even live there!
The great commission, as Jesus’ instructions to His Disciples is called, told them to, “Make disciples of all the nations…†Look at the definition of a disciple. It does not mean to go around the world getting people to say, ‘‘the sinners’ prayer.†A disciple has to be a believer who wants to follow after the teachings of Jesus. Not someone converted to the Christian Religion or the Mormon or Catholic or Baptist Religion, to name just a few examples.
The third commandment tells us “Do not use the name of the Lord Thy God in vainâ€. People who go around claiming to belong to Jesus because of saying a single prayer are breaking that very commandment. Since there is no spiritual fruit in their life, nor any witness of the Holy Spirit dwelling in them, nor a hunger for the word of the Lord to be their daily bread, they are using the Lord’s name in vain to say they belong to Him. It is like being married and telling everyone this is my spouse, then committing adultery at the same time.
The people who followed Jesus and believed in Him after His resurrection never said a prayer to be saved. They simply believed with all their hearts and served the Lord. This is hard to imagine after years and years of false teachers leading folks in “The Sinners Prayerâ€, that magical collection of confessions and promises that allegedly seals your salvation for life. Here in truth is what you really get; A loss of the fear of the Lord, if in fact you ever had it, a complete lack of further repentance for your sins, a sort of distance from your God given conscience, always blaming the devil for the guilt you feel for sin. Lies like, “You’re under graceâ€, and “Covered by the bloodâ€, abound in the modern day church. They use these truths in the Bible to excuse their sins, whereupon the sin, and distance from God multiplies.
One reason Christianity promotes the “Sinners Prayerâ€, is so that most of their followers find it easier to accept Baal-Jesus. Baal-Jesus is a false god, and idol created to draw in the multitudes while the real Jesus, whose name is Yeshua from long before the Christian religion began, stands at the door knocking. Baal-Jesus is very liberal when it comes to the sins of his followers, and has a chameleon personality. The true Christ, Yeshua called Jesus, has no tolerance for unconfessed sin and the hypocrisy of church leaders. Those are the two most prominent sins in modern day Christian churches today. Then, the congregation, or “followers†of these hypocrites naturally “follow’ along the same path.
The title, “Lord†has become a worn out moniker at best. Way back in time that title was given the proper reverence it was intended. During the middle ages for example, a knight would kneel before a king and swear his life to that king, calling him his Lord. Everything he possessed, all that he conquered, and the very breath he breathed was for the honor and glory of his king. Today’s Christian uses their Lord to make better lives for themselves, gain prestige in a community, or a nation for that matter, and let’s not forget, to build some very nice financial portfolios!
If you can say one prayer and be saved from then on, no matter what, then all of God’s directives and commands are negated. You would not have to pay heed to any of the warnings in the word of God. Because, as the Christians who promote the Sinners Prayer will tell you that now all your sins, past present, and future will be automatically forgiven. They insist you are at that point, saved, period. No matter what law of God’s you violate from that moment forth, you are still “savedâ€. What a bunch of rubbish and lies from the pit of Hell. No wonder more than half the world would wants in on it. But, if as the Bible says, you must spend a lifetime to, “work out your salvation with fear and tremblingâ€, it thins down the ranks of so-called believers considerably. That is why the Lord said, â€Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find itâ€. (Mattthew Ch 7, Vs. 14) In fact, the word of God is full of references to only a remnant finding eternal life, not the hosts of people who claim to be saved today. The sad truth is that Christian churches today teach the sinners prayer in order to feed the ravenous beast mammon that is the heart and soul of their religion. In order for the Christian Cult religion to survive it needs followers, and new converts are the key.
If the Sinners Prayer saves you then God’s word is at best misleading. If there were a prayer that could guarantee immediate and lifelong salvation, wouldn’t God have placed it in His word? Would it not be repeated over and again like so many other important laws, doctrines and necessary guidelines? Try asking a church going Christian where the bible leads us in a “Sinners prayerâ€. Then ask them why God doesn’t include it in His word. Then to really confuse them further, ask them why, if God doesn’t, do they preach it (salvation through the Sinners Prayer) so adamantly?
The modern day Christian church is chock full of false conversions, and they in turn mislead others. In fact, from experience I have found that most of these phonies are long time members and hold positions of pastor, elder and deacon! That’s right, they are in the churches, on Christian radio stations, and on your television, preaching, singing, teaching, and even sitting right next to you. The day is fast approaching and is, in fact, upon us to define True Christianity biblically, and encourage the true believers to separate from the Cult Religion of Christianity. If you know someone who claims to belong to Christ, calling themselves a Christian, ask them if they said “The Sinners Prayerâ€, if so, then use every caution in dealing with them. If you are one who said this empty collection of words, ask yourself, “Is Jesus Christ the Lord of my lifeâ€? To be honest with yourself may be your true salvation.
Taken from the book, “Spiritual reality†by B. E. Elias
November 8th, 2007 at 1:53 pm
haha, that’s a coicidence.
posts 34 and 35 contain the exact same ammouont of usefull information.
November 8th, 2007 at 8:01 pm
RRock, This man Simon was among those who believed.
what was the point of Simon “conversion”? what was his motive? what did he wish to gain, if he wanted to convert? why? is the question.
Rock, i can see were you going with this “sinners prayer” where is this sinners prayer you are talking about?
Rock, “the desire to purchase the gift of the Holy Spirit” was part of his motive for conversion, but what was his gain in the end, Simon wanted something and it was not God or heaven he was looking for.
My Brother, i see your point in this. I am part of a church you mention, does this allows me to call a brother?
Do you call me a enemy? How do you say, “i am here send me”? what is your means for spreading the gospel?
The church i go to has missionaries around the world. if you were to take just one, they will say that God has sent them there, to share the living word with them.
Rock, tell me who do you send besides yourself to the ends of the earth to share the gospel with people?
November 9th, 2007 at 11:22 pm
AND POST 36 WAS ENLIGHTENING????
Are all athiests this transparent with double standards?
alcari Says:
November 8th, 2007 at 1:53 pm
haha, that’s a coicidence.
posts 34 and 35 contain the exact same ammouont of usefull information.
November 10th, 2007 at 11:52 am
no, it wasn’t enlightening at all. It was merely a little vented frustration of having to scroll past those walls of text you leave everywhere.
I’m sure there are transparant atheists with double standards, same with christians and muslims and every other group.
November 11th, 2007 at 8:43 pm
Of course if I was an athiest leaving a “wall of text” it would be okay I presume. In fact it has been just fine for your comrades in ignorance to do just that.
alcari Says:
November 10th, 2007 at 11:52 am
no, it wasn’t enlightening at all. It was merely a little vented frustration of having to scroll past those walls of text you leave everywhere.
I’m sure there are transparant atheists with double standards, same with christians and muslims and every other group.
November 11th, 2007 at 9:58 pm
Funny thing is though, an atheist hasn’t done that, so it’s stupid to presume ANYTHING. Do you really think your helping anyone by just copying and pasting from random books?
November 12th, 2007 at 10:40 pm
irishthunder Says:
November 11th, 2007 at 9:58 pm
Funny thing is though, an atheist hasn’t done that, so it’s stupid to presume ANYTHING. Do you really think your helping anyone by just copying and pasting from random books?
ENTER BLASPHEMASTER WITH A WALL OF TEXT TO MAKE IRISH LOOK STUPID. AGAIN.
Blasphemaster Says:
October 4th, 2007 at 11:20 am
The ONLY place morals and ethics come from is from the forces STUDIED BY Psychology and Sociology. The idea that our moral and ethical standings must have origins in the supernatural is utter nonsense.
Morals are simply sociologically identified standards of behavior which are in essence derived from ethics, which are essentially individual motivators of behavior. So, what the majority considers to be ‘good and right’ is considered moral. In what I regretfully call my society, that of the U.S.A., it is generally viewed by the Religious Majority that to be moral is to be ‘pious’ and focused on ‘family values’ and whatnot. I myself am in no way whatsoever pious, and I care little about so-called ‘family values’. Thus, in the eyes of the majority, I am ‘amoral’. Yet at the same time, as I am guided by my conscience and logical, rational thinking and thus do my best to co-exist with those around me as best I can doing no violence or wrong as I see it, I am ethical.
Let’s consider WHY the values of the majority, thus what is considered ‘moral’ come from. The vast majority of the U.S. population is sadly, Christian. This is largely because the initial emigrants who founded the future bases of our nation were Christian. The majority of immigrants into the nation, once founded, were also Christian. Those who were not Christian were pressured to become so, and a sizable amount did, though there is certainly a respectably population who are by no means Christian. There are of course Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, Rastafarians and what have you, a minority though they be. However, as the Christians had the time to build a political power base and develop the society to conform to their values, they have created a culture in which what Christians by and large are guided by their own ethical standards to believe to be good and right, becomes considered moral.
This is true for any culture. In the U.S.A., if you openly consider rational alternatives to Christian thinking or perhaps have a sexually ’swinging’ lifestyle, you are labeled ‘immoral’. In Saudi Arabia, if you have a beer or being female you show some ankle in public you are labeled ‘immoral’. In some ‘primitive’ island cultures in the Pacific, you refuse to eat the remains of a dead relative in order to honor their spirit, you are labeled ‘immoral’.
Morality is entirely relative, based on what the majority in any given culture or situation considers to be ‘right’ or ‘good’, and as cultures vary widely, what is considered ‘moral’ varies widely.
I care not a pittance for what anyone considers ‘moral’. I guide my own actions for the good of myself and refrain from causing harm to others, and thus, I consider myself to be ethical.
“Now, to assume that the individual is born with ethics, psychologically speaking, is not true.â€
So then, where do our morals truly and honestly come from? If not from society and psychology, then where?
“Well, the answer MUST lie in the creator of ethics — only the author of morals and ethics would be able to determine what is absolute, exclusive truth and what is not.â€
More contradictory statements there could not be.
You seem recognize that there are no inherent attitudes towards ethics in humanity, which is largely true. John Locke famously suggested that humans, and arguably any conscious creature, are born with a ‘tabula rasa’ a blank slate. This is the idea the we have no inherent ideas or attitudes, though I would add the qualifier “outside of what we are biologically predisposed towardsâ€. Personal ethics are derived from experience and observation. If your culture’s morals teaches you from day one that it is wrong to perform a certain act, chances are quite high that you will grow to believe this and integrate the idea into your personal ethical thinking. Inversely, if someone in a different culture is taught the opposite, they will integrate it into their own thinking just as well.
How then does ‘the origin of morals and ethics’ lie exclusive in an infallible author who determines what is absolute? Why has this author given different sets of morals to different cultures, visibly based on what is acceptable given the history of any given culture? You provide no supporting evidence outside of your claim, nay your declaration that it is so. Thus, you have set out to discuss what is or is not true with a goal already in mind, and this your entire logical process is altered to suit this. Just because you wish something to be true does not make it so.
I also feel that attributing any and all ethical capacity to some invisible sky wizard is extremely degrading to humanity as a whole. To suggest despite all evidence to the contrary that we are what we consider to be moral or ethical purely because an unknowable, unprovable, baseless IDEA declared it so is pure nonsense, incredibly insulting, and the purest cowardice.
November 13th, 2007 at 12:55 am
There’s a significant difference though, Blasphemaster went through the trouble of actually putting his own thoughts into something that he himself wrote. I don’t consider that a wall of text, you simply copy and pasted from a book. I pointed that out already, but you conveniently missing that.
November 13th, 2007 at 4:17 am
Add to that tha Blasphemaster’s post had actual relevance to the topic at hand. And he masters the art of paragraphs.
November 13th, 2007 at 8:49 am
UH OH OK! YOU GUYS TAKE THE CAKE WHEN IT COMES TO SMALL MINDS!
November 13th, 2007 at 8:50 am
You are like big fish in a little pond on this forum. What a shame to live so miserably.
November 13th, 2007 at 4:42 pm
Small minds? Really? because it looks like you are completely incapable of either listening to or understanding anyone else’s point of view. Whenever anyone says something you don’t like or asks you a difficult question you completely ignore it, but I guess your living under the idea that ignorance is bliss. If you have anything to really say or want to contribute to the discussion, please share, but if your just gonna spout off your condescending rants then please go somewhere else.
November 13th, 2007 at 9:01 pm
Irish
If anyone behaves that way it is you, and please stop telling me to go somewhere else. If you truly wish to have supreme power on a forum, may I suggest starting your own? Otherwise know that I will be as adamant in my tried and tested faith in the living God, as you are in your empty intellectual religion of words.
November 13th, 2007 at 9:33 pm
Howdy all,
RRock, just on the topic of your last post I wish to ask you a question. I know of several things or events that could convince me that God is real. Is there anything at all that would convince you (before your death) that your current beliefs are wrong? If there is what are they and why and if not some reasons on why anything would fail to convince you?
Cheers
Simon Bond
November 13th, 2007 at 9:40 pm
Brilliant retort RRock, really, you just did it again. All your doing is bitching and moaning about what others believe, yet you say you don’t care that the believe something than you. However I’m guessing, like most other christians, you don’t understand what hypocrisy is. Either that or you know how hypocritical you are and simply don’t care.
November 13th, 2007 at 11:16 pm
LOL irish. A new mirror is what you need!
November 13th, 2007 at 11:29 pm
Simon,
A fair question, and I am at a loss as to what would cause my faith to falter. I could tell you that it did once back in the eighties, (I have been serving God for 26 years). I was accused of a crime I did not commit, and I really wanted to die. Nothing can compare to this evil justice system once they get thier claws in you. The statement “innocent until proven guilty” is a lie. It is a long story but I can tell you that God supernaturally touched me in a jail cell, saved my life and freed me from the clutches of the dishonest legal system. The story in it’s entirety is amazing.
Since then I have witnessed countless occasions when the word of God has come to pass, and innummerable events that witnessed the Holy Spirit in me. I must concur with the bible when it says that nothing can seperate me from the love of God which is in Christ jesus. Do not mistake me for a Christian, who live for themselves, and thier churches. They promote a false god not the God of the bible. They worship thier idols like thier pastors, televangelists, music artists, Dr. Dobson, and on and on. They do not worship Jehovah God, so there will be many who will easily fall away for numerous reasons. But as for me, I have been sealed and now I say to live is Christ, and to die is gain. And to Hell with Religion!
Simon Bond Says:
November 13th, 2007 at 9:33 pm
Howdy all,
RRock, just on the topic of your last post I wish to ask you a question. I know of several things or events that could convince me that God is real. Is there anything at all that would convince you (before your death) that your current beliefs are wrong? If there is what are they and why and if not some reasons on why anything would fail to convince you?
Cheers
Simon Bond
November 14th, 2007 at 12:07 am
“LOL irish. A new mirror is what you need!”
translation: “I’m rubber, your glue”
November 14th, 2007 at 10:02 am
Irish, you better change your screenname to irishlightshower as there is absolutely nothing THUNDEROUS about you. It truly is sad to watch you embarass yourself on this forum.
irishthunder Says:
November 14th, 2007 at 12:07 am
“LOL irish. A new mirror is what you need!â€
translation: “I’m rubber, your glueâ€
November 14th, 2007 at 12:36 pm
“Irish, you better change your screenname to irishlightshower as there is absolutely nothing THUNDEROUS about you. It truly is sad to watch you embarass yourself on this forum.”
translation: “nanny nanny, boo boo, stick you head in doo doo”
November 15th, 2007 at 12:50 am
You poor pathetic godless nothing. What a sad existence
irishthunder Says:
November 14th, 2007 at 12:36 pm
“Irish, you better change your screenname to irishlightshower as there is absolutely nothing THUNDEROUS about you. It truly is sad to watch you embarass yourself on this forum.â€
translation: “nanny nanny, boo boo, stick you head in doo dooâ€
November 15th, 2007 at 2:30 am
it always ends with a personal attack. how predictable…
November 15th, 2007 at 10:54 am
Who? All your athiest cohorts boris? Or are you also bling to that truth as well?
boris Says:
November 15th, 2007 at 2:30 am
it always ends with a personal attack. how predictable…
November 15th, 2007 at 12:57 pm
Wow I have been reading the various posts and opinions and ‘wow’ again. It is fascinating how many of you have no hope at all. The Christian, Moslem, Jew, and Buddhist at least believe in something and trust me I know who is what and even who is trying to justify certain lifestyle choice.
Is it not in the nature of humanity to be hypocritical?
Churches need money to run. Does anyone here not have to pay for food or utilities? How many work? Out of those who work, work for free? So shouldn’t full time work have full time pay?
How many want better schools and police to do their jobs but how many cheat on their taxes or don’t vote because ‘it dont make a difference’ .
How many hate Christian dislike of homosexuality but don’t make the same comments after Iran’s execution of 4000 homosexuals?
The bottom line is personal. How much better is your life with no God (that’s capital G) in it?
If you’re perfectly happy then go ahead. If you’re not then maybe you might want to see if their is something else.
November 15th, 2007 at 1:26 pm
Then enlighten us, oh wise one. Tell us who is what and why! Please, share your just some of that vast knowledge so that we may separate the sinners from the non-sinners and tell us how to deal with them…
No, I don’t trust you, just as I distrust anyone who makes such sweeping statements about a group of people they never even met.
And it’s pastor needs a $3.5 million mansion to spread the message, just like Jesus did. Hypocrisy may be human nature, but this is gross hypocrisy that involves harming people.
I can answer that question fully, but I can say that I am living a much better life after ditching religion and much happier as well. I care more about life (my own and others), treat other more fairly, expanded my moral consideration to near-sentient animals, pursue knowledge without fear, spend more of my time volunteering, fight injustice with more passion, and have learned so much about myself since I dropped religion.
Here is something else to note: even if believing in God makes one’s life better, it doesn’t make His existence any more or less real. The effect of belief has no bearing on the validity of the belief.
Thanks for the Sesame Street level education.
November 15th, 2007 at 2:47 pm
Ah so enlightened that we strain our little neuron Sid Faiwu to so witty comments.
There is no separation of saint and sinner. We are all sinners, that is why we strive to do better.
However, I am in agreement that some ’self-anointed’ pastors are indeed Christ pimps. But again you have not addressed the question if you work should you get paid?
In addition what separates ‘gross hypocrisy’ from ‘a little hypocrisy’?
November 15th, 2007 at 3:12 pm
I’m sorry, Azmodel, I thought your question was rhetorical. Allow me to answer it.
If one works for someone else, then they should get paid. I don’t expect to get paid for mowing my own lawn.
I was pondering this very question even as I stated that there was a difference. I’d call any hypocrisy that results in harm to anyone as gross hypocrisy and other types as ‘a little’ hypocrisy. An example of the latter would include when I complain about someone talking loudly on a cell phone when I sometimes do the same. It is that level of hypocrisy that is human nature.
November 15th, 2007 at 4:03 pm
Actually Sid it has been interesting and I thank you all for your input and debate. FYI actually to all who are interest they recent had an interesting debate in Birmingham, AL in the US on ‘The God Delusion’ on NPR. I believe you’ll find it interesting the debate between
Atheist author Richard Dawkins and Christian apologist John Lennox. I think you can stilldownload it here:
http://www.bringyou.to/apologetics/audio.htm
and click
John Lennox vs. Richard Dawkins “The God Delusion” Debate 2007 MP3
November 15th, 2007 at 7:09 pm
I really tried listening to that, but after 10 minutes the horrible echo and it was to much of a strain listening.
So, honest question, is there anything in it that I haven’t heared a thousand times before?
March 10th, 2008 at 3:32 pm
For all of the idiots who have a problem with the house that we the members of DWO bought our pastor, take it up with God. The day you give us a dollar, then that is the day we might consider following your doctrine or advice oN where it should go. Not only is Pastor Ben blessed, he was blessed for the 20 years that he was an auto exec prior to becoming a pastor. We are all blessed and God the blessor, does not mind us being that way. Stay in poverty, keep leaving nasty comments about people who give away more than 20 million pounds of food a year, who have helped more than 200 families avoid foreclosure in the last year, and who help people who legitimately need it. So many miracles were seen after that 3.5 million dollars. ALL PRAISES TO JEHOVAH JIREH ~ OUR PROVIDER
March 10th, 2008 at 4:06 pm
DWOSP, seeing how your post lacks any real substance, as well as a good justification, I will mentally sort it under “Blabbering by ignorant gits”.
Suggest you take the Red Pill, and take a really good at what you’re paying for. 3.7 million dollars provide housing for 75 homeless people, or food for 3700 starving people, or vaccinations for 75000 newborn children.
Now get of your high horse and take a damn good look at your “money well spent”