I began this article with a submission by Shaze, who just happens to have a knack for exposing the horrors of religion. At first I thought there was no need to cover the story. Sure it’s extremely disturbing and directly related to Islam, but I saw it as a rare incident in a part of the world that is long forgotten. Not more than a minute passed when stumbled upon this next article.
I have covered Islamic sharia law several times in the past. These incidents usually occurred in remote areas of Pakistan, Iran, Syria, and Sudan as was the case with Shaze’s story. But this latest article talks about this “honour” based violence in Britain, a modern culturally diverse nation. How could this be?
Each year there are an estimated 12 honour killings in Britain and countless more incidents violence and bullying. These are fueled by the spread of radical Islam and a warped sense of faith. Read the article for the full picture.
What I want to touch on is very simple. If this kind of extremism can find roots and potentially prosper openly in a country like Britain, what will happen as radical Islam spreads to the rest of Europe?
Related posts:
- Muslim Women All Hot And Sweaty Over Gym
- Muhammed Caricatures Spark Violence
- Muslim Lie Sparks Jihad
- Miss Israel Quits With Honour
- Sam Harris–Link Between Religion And Violence
March 26th, 2007 at 3:35 pm
25 honour killings in the Netherlands in the last year. And we only have 16 million people, then again, 1 in 15 is muslim.
so i guess that’s what happens. Pretty much everyone seems to be pretty integrated, but it’s that “small” minority that screws everything up.
Religious violence in my country definatly seems to be on the rise, but it’s a bit difficult to compare, seeing how i’m only 19 years old (not much “good old time”) Still, it seems the ammount of idiots claiming god/bible/sharia/whatever told them they had to do it. Case in point:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theo_van_Gogh_(film_director)#Van_Gogh.27s_murder
Back to the question.
“”this latest article talks about this “honour†based violence in Britain, a modern culturally diverse nation. How could this be?”"
Not all people are intelligent, modern and culturally diverse. Some are idiots.
I’d like to leave it at that, but it does need explaining I think. Unfortunatly, not everyone integrates into a new society as easily as some do. In Amsterdam, there are areas where being dutch is wierd and an exception. People simply refusing to intergrate and mix with society are a big problem over here, it creates this voluntary seggregation, where two seperate societies develop.
These two groups are starting to to adopt medieval views of eachother “Someone stole your bike? Must be one of those Turks/marokans/surinams/muslims/blackguys/whatever.” This is NOT a good development, but it will continue as long as people refuse to learn anything about eachother and mingle a bit.
In short: you can solve a lot of problems if YOU JUST TALK TO THE OTHER GUY!
/end rant
March 26th, 2007 at 6:19 pm
From the article: “They will use Islam as a justification for telling women how to behave and for punishing them.”
I’ve commented on this in other parts of the site. Religion teachs that unreasoned faith in dogma is good. That your scripture is the divine word. Some believers will say that the word has been misinterpreted, it’s not the true faith. Unfortunately who’s to say what is the correct interpretation? If you believe you are acting on your god’s instructions as set down in the “holy” books, anything you do is by definition pious. I’ve probably not explained myself well, but religious belief is predicated on unthinking devotion and that leads to some pretty wacky outcomes. Belief in a jealous sky fairy, or any fairy isn’t healthy or intelligent.
March 26th, 2007 at 8:07 pm
Very well put, alcari. The situation is similar in Germany, although I don’t remember such a number of honour killings from the papers.
My mother is a primary school teacher and has worked in an area predominantly populated by immigrants over years. She often told me how she loved the children and disliked the parents. Call the mother for a meeting with the teacher and she’ll bring one of the brothers to translate, as she doesn’t understand German. Organise a class trip and the muslim girls will not be allowed to join (sharing rooms is too intimate). Also, they are not allowed to take part in the swimming classes. Tell the russian parents (orthodox christians) about it and they’ll spit out hatred about the muslims. Take any of the immigrant children to the beautiful places in the town (of which there are a number) and they’ll be amazed, never having been there, only knowing their quarter and downtown. Et cetera, et cetera. But then again, why doesn’t the city council try to counter such ghetto developments? They throw all immigrants together in a few places. They are often educatd worse, don’t speak proper German and work low-paid jobs. Social tension is foreseeable. I think if they were more evenly distributed integration would be a lot easier and the idiots wouldn’t have such an impact.
One should note that the German public is probably more xenophobic than the Dutch one. Lucky you, alcari.
March 26th, 2007 at 9:48 pm
From what I’ve heard the problem with the Muslim/Western tensions as a whole seems pretty well explained by atheist. It seems like these people just don’t get out much. Everything I hear about Muslim groups in Western nations describes them keeping to themselves, like they’re a separate civilization (which they basically are because of this). I’m tempted to yell, “Move back to Saudi Arabia and your misogynistic hellscape, morons!” but I don’t think that would help. Of course, the constant preaching that the West is the devil on the part of their religious leaders certainly doesn’t help. And, whenever I hear about Muslims that are a normal, functioning part of western society, they seem to have no problems. It looks from here like what these people need most is some sunlight. It couldn’t hurt (not counting skin cancer for the sake of argument).
March 27th, 2007 at 12:02 am
Alcari,
I agree with you on this one, I think we are not going to learn any thing if we are afraid to communicate with each other, I think it makes things even worse, because on the other side, it makes other people feel undesireable, and I think it might make them feel isloated, and not willing to learn and adopt new traditions.
Vilonece in Muslims are not related to Islam, it’s pure stupid tradition inherited from the past, I saw a lot of Muslims denounce who ever beat a woman, and I’m serious when I say a lot of people.
By the way I’m writting from Egypt right now, and it’s speechless what’s going on in Egypt right now, and I think I shouldn’t mention a lot, I’m afraid they are going to arrest me:), just kidding.
Have a good morning or night guys.
March 27th, 2007 at 12:25 am
Mohamed: “it’s speechless what’s going on in Egypt right now, and I think I shouldn’t mention a lot, I’m afraid they are going to arrest me”
First, I hope not dude. I’ve read from time to time some of the stuff that goes on over there and it’s bloody scary. Take care of yourself.
I will disagree in part with what you say. Violence in Islam is part of the Quran. I know a lot of muslims (the majority I imagine) are peaceful. Just like Christians, etc. And I don’t thing Islam is any worse than any other religion. But like all relgion it does allow people to hide their acts in their religion. Probably holy books have just as much violence as peace in them. The Torah, Quran or Bible all have acts of terrible violence done in god’s name. Or by god. And this is seen to be good due to indoctrination. People pick and choose what they like out of these holy books and act on it. They are not wrong to do so in their minds because it’s what their books says. And for every abuser there must be facilitators. The facilitators of violence are often corelionists. A muslim or christian or … won’t wish to dob in a fellow coreligionist because they share the same faith, believe in the same impossible fairy.
March 27th, 2007 at 12:51 am
Egypt is not that scary, I didn’t mean quite that, people actually are so nice, it’s just the stupid government we have. I can talk all day long about what’s going on Egypt right now, and how the Gov try to manipulate everything, it’s the same like USA, but it’s even stupider. If I was an American in Egypt I wouldn’t be scared, I would be scared because I’m still Egyptian and I’m in Egypt, but if I were American they wouldn’t even dare to touch me.
Beleive me, Islam doesn call for violence against women, and if it did, I would be the same.
The whole idea is, there a lot of Muslims are not educated in the ME, and they read the qurans and they receive some explanition from some sheikhs and some religion people, and these Sheiks mostly uneducated either, and that’s what makes it worse, becasue they can’t understand what really Islam is.
I never used violent against women, neither did my dad, becasue we always listen to the right persons, who knows a lot about Islam, and they are not afraid to tell the truth.
If you read about prophet Muhammed, he never torture his wives, and if he did, nobody would tell him any thing at this time, at the contrary, he was so nice to his wives, even there were people were so amazed for how nice was he with his wives.
Our prophet is our example to how to behave, so if we follow him, no Muslim would beat his wife, but for sorry the people who commit violent, they always claim that they are following the way our prophet act, but when it comes to how deal with women they don’t.
March 27th, 2007 at 12:57 am
Mohamed: “there a lot of Muslims are not educated in the ME, and they read the qurans and they receive some explanition from some sheikhs and some religion people”
You’re probably 100 percent right about that. The trouble is they have religion to allow them to do this. If they said we are gonna hit our wives, or kill others because they don’t like our beards, everybody would condemn them. If they say we are gonna hit our wives, or kill others, some will condemn them, but others will say they just feel sorry for them, as they don’t know the “true” word. They are still allowed to do it, as it’s part of their religion and we can’t question that, because god is right……
” but when it comes to how deal with women they don’t”
Correct me if I’m wrong, but didn’t Mohamed fantasize about a girl when she was 4 and he was about 50? Didn’t he then go to a good friend, who was the father of this girl and ask to be betroved to her, and convinced the wary father to let him do it when she was 6? Didn’t he then marry her and have sex with her when she was 9? While she was still playing with dolls? If that is true, and my understanding is that is what is in the scriptures, then the prophet was an abuser of children. Not a great role model.
March 27th, 2007 at 1:10 am
Just found this quote from the Quran to illustrate my point that religions preach violence.
“Quran 4:34: Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in their sleeping places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great.”
So if a woman doesn’t be quiet and act in a way that pleases her husband. It’s his god given right to beat her. Do you believe this or choose not to believe you scriptures?
March 27th, 2007 at 1:48 am
Ok,
I don’t know where you got the word fantasize about 4 years old girl from but it’s ok, it’s another claim people like to stuck to our prophet.
1- The reason that our prophet married 9 years old, because that was a god choice, and you will ask why god will choose that, because Aisha memorized more than 2000 quotes from our prophet quotes, which helped the Islamic nation to go back to her when explanation is needed for any matter concerns Islam. So the logic says that only 9 years old would be the only one capable to do such a thing, which it leads to other thing, that Aishas which is a woman led the Muslim men in what they do and how they act.
The second thing, that 9 years old at this era is different than 9 years old in our days, but the other thing I could tell you, that the girls in Egypt are so weak so they can’t have sex and get pregnant till 16 or even 18, in meanwhile in USA girls are strong to be able to have sex at 11 or even less, so even at the same time it could be different from place to a place.
The other thing, that you have to look at, the difference in culture, which it might be well acceptable for Muhammed to do that in that era, but now you are talking from our time stand point which is not valid to do that.
For the second reply to you, I beleive in what Quran said in that matter, but you forget someting and I think you didn’t even mentioned it, that Quran gives you the choice to do what you mentioned or to forgive them and treat them well and Quran mentioned also if
you do frogive them that would be better, and I think I’m smart enough to do what god says it’s better.
Violence is every where, even is USA, and if you want to claim that violence against women has to do any thing with religion, it should be zero in USA or Britian.
March 27th, 2007 at 1:55 am
Mohamed: “The other thing, that you have to look at, the difference in culture, which it might be well acceptable for Muhammed to do that in that era”
Exactly, but most Muslims claim Mohamed as perfect. That is irrefutable. Obviously if what he did was ok in his time (doubtfull, but I’ll let that slide) it isn’t now, at least not in developed countries. Therefore, he wasn’t perfect. Just a man.
Also, the Quran may give you choice, which shows it’s not perfect. Because wouldn’t god tell you how to act if he was perfect? So either the Quran is fallible or it’s god’s word. If it’s god’s word, then god sanctions violence against women.
Thanks for debating this Mohamed. Most believers wont even allow that.
March 27th, 2007 at 2:12 am
All I can tell you, that personnelly I hate violence in any form it could be, I beleive that God knows the nature of woman more than we do, and he knows what the best, and he gave the choice to do what you think it’s the best, and he shows you what the better choice which is to treat women better, and add to that, that Muhammed never treated his women in a bad way, which he is the example to how can we behave.
Muhammed didn’t do any mistake for marrying Aysha, and nobody claimed that Muhammed was perfect, only God is perfect, and God mentioned that Muhammed was a human-being. By the way I got in huge argument with some conservative Muslim around this topic before, if Muhammed did mistakes or not, and I think he did really minor mistakes, and I think god meant that to happen to show that Muhammed is a human-being like us, came to the earth to tell god’s message, so we don’t worship him like the christian worshiping Jesus and he was just a prophet.
March 27th, 2007 at 2:32 am
Oh that the morals set forth of the universe could be claimed by any man made religion. That the Quaran or Bible could possibly hold face with the wisdom that predates it, by centuries of evolution. Mankind has known for all ages that no justification is cause for the death of life, in ANY form or ANY regard. The religious eye for an eye bullshit, the sexist FUCKING BIGGOTRY!
Never mind that they are STONING two women to death; they let the guy go free! And to kill, by the state, in the name of the people, for adultry? Everyone supporting corporal punishment are accomplises to murder themselves, as innocent people are killed by the system all the time. Not to mention FORCING a vast majority of people and states who oppose it.
It’s interesting, cause in this case I’m like the good ol’ USA; imposing my moral judgements on others.
March 27th, 2007 at 2:32 am
crap;
Sorry for the huge A tag… Gas, edit?
March 27th, 2007 at 2:55 am
Mohamed. Your namesakes made some huge mistakes. He thought sperm came from the backbone. He thought thought women ejaculated and contributed to the sex of a child. He thought it was ok to steal. He thought it was ok to have heaps of wives. And marrying Aisha when she was a child was a huge immoral mistake. If you can’t see that, you’re not looking.
March 27th, 2007 at 3:29 am
Some evidence about Mohamed:
Scriptural Evidence] Volume 7, Book 62, Number 64: Sahih Bukhari [the most venerated and authentic Islamic source]
Narrated ‘Aisha: that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old, and then she remained with him for nine years (i.e. till his death).
He married her when she was 6 and consummated the marriage when she was nine.
“because that was a god choice, and you will ask why god will choose that, because Aisha memorized more than 2000 quotes from our prophet quotes,”
If god chose that a middle aged man raped a 9 year old girl. It doesn’t say much for god or the men does it?
And the best excuse you can come up with for this is she memorized some quotes from a prohet. That is shamefull.
March 27th, 2007 at 3:30 am
I don’t see it as a mistake, as I told you are talking about two different era, so you can’t compare between now and then, where did you get all of these stuff that you are talking about.
The other thing, he has a heaps of wives, he didn’t even have time to satisfy his desires like you assume, he didn’t even have a time for that.
About that woman contributed to the sex of a child, that on claim I never heard before, so please let me know where did you get that from.
The other thing you talked about semens, did we figure out everything about semens, did we know how the semens has a life, I would coside semens as cells if I’m correct(not really sure), but why the semsens has the ability to be a baby and the othere cells are not and has the ability to move, so there are a lot of secerts to know about, we didn’t know yet.
Marrying more than one woman has a wisdom in my opinion, and I don’t like to do it personnely but I think it’s a good thing for who ever can do it, women popluation is more than a men, it reduces the homosexuality among the woman, and there are women don’t mind to do it, and there some men don’t mind to do it, so I don’t know why people attacking it as it’s something so bad
I’m against stoning the women and leaving the guys, although if the women are married and the guys are not, that would be right judgmen, but the guys still has to be wipped on their back, but if the guys were married they have to get the sam destiny like women.
I’m saying that because Quran didn’t differntiate between man and woman in that, it’s the same punshiment for both sides.
March 27th, 2007 at 3:45 am
He didn’t rape her, if he rapped her, she would phsyclgicaly disaster, on the contrary she mentioned so many time how great our prophet was and how much she loved him.
I agree with reading this kind of web sites that you get your sources from, but my advice read first Muhammed history and you will know that there is no human-being came on this earth like him.
March 27th, 2007 at 3:51 am
“on the contrary she mentioned so many time how great our prophet was and how much she loved him.”
Stockholm syndrome, well documented :-) seriously mohammed, you have said some damn ridiculous things in this threads…
March 27th, 2007 at 3:58 am
@mohammed
“I’m against stoning the women and leaving the guys, although if the women are married and the guys are not, that would be right judgmen, but the guys still has to be wipped on their back, but if the guys were married they have to get the sam destiny like women.”
“All I can tell you, that personnelly I hate violence in any form it could be”
can’t make up your mind?
March 27th, 2007 at 4:04 am
There are big differnece between viloence and punishment, for example my opinion that execution is better than somebody stays all of his life in prison for killing somebody, not because excution is fance and I enjoy it, it’s just because excution would make the killer think millions time before he doeas it, and it the same fate for what he has done for the other.
All I meant to say if you got my point which you never did before, that if there punishment in Islam, it doesn’t differntiate between man and woman.
March 27th, 2007 at 4:31 am
Post 2:
“Unfortunately who’s to say what is the correct interpretation?”
And therein lies the power of most religions.
Seriously, a christian friend of mine used to bring weird and weirder interpretations all the time, but then she saw that she was just trying to fix a broken religion. She’s a deist now.
Anybody here remembers the guy who claimed smacking a woman is considered some godly therapy? Well, he just reinterpreted the quran, but hey even religious people have some brains, they won’t be *that* stupid(at least i hope.)
Now regarding some issues mentioned here:
Women taking part in deciding the newborn’s sex. Source(arabic):
http://www.archive.org/details/msolea
Marrying a 6 years old girl and shagging her at the age of 9 because it was culturally acceptable:
So if mohammed buried his daughter(s) (which was culturally acceptable back then) would it be okay?
God chose the marrige because she could learn more quotes:
Never read this interpretation(gotta love islam for making up new excuses all the time) but here you go: There was some companion(sah’abi) who never forgot anything Mohammed said, that is because he came to the prophet one day complaining that he forgets much of what his (beloved) prophet said. So Mohammed prayed to god for this man, and one of the Calif’s tested him a few years later(making him recite some stuff, writing it down, then asking him to recite the same stuff a year later.)
Now arguably Mohammed could have used this guy to do the quoting, because he gotta be even better than Aisha, don’t you think? I mean he was blessed by GOD(tm)
March 27th, 2007 at 5:02 am
Oh before whoever here reads the arabic link thinks it’s proven here is a simple explenation:
The link claims that there is an electric charge to sperm and to egg cells, thus making the charge play a big role in sperm being drawn to/repelled from the egg.
This rumor can be traced back to one person: Patrick Schoun.
http://www.choicebaby.com/index.php?p=what
Now as far as I can tell he never published his evidence/experiments thus making his claim no more than a money maker.
Excuse the double post.
March 27th, 2007 at 5:03 am
Agony,
I dobut that you red the article right, because actually the article which I think you don’t know Arabic, says the scientfic support what our prophet says.
Please if you know how to read arabic first, the quote some sites, and you make people think look you know what are you talking about, and it was the opposite of what you are trying to prove and it proved that Muhammed was right.
The other thing, nobody memoriezed all of Muhammed’s quote, but it gatherd for so many people, Aisha was the best source, the other thing our prophet used to get a lot of people in his house, so do you think that this guy was there with him every miunte.
Marriage is accepatable thing in every time, but burying girls was never been acceptable, and thanks for at least giving our prophet the credit for making the woman place higher for not burying girls(you admit it).
One lase thing, know Arabic first before you quote Arabic site.
March 27th, 2007 at 5:14 am
Mohamed: “I would coside semens as cells if I’m correct(not really sure), but why the semsens has the ability to be a baby and the othere cells are not and has the ability to move, so there are a lot of secerts to know about, we didn’t know yet.”
Hate to tell you this, but scientists have known about human conception for a long time. It’s not up for debate. He was just plain wrong. Don’t you think that if he was getting the message from god, he’d get that right?
Secondly, just cause the victim of rape doesn’t complain, doesn’t make it not rape. By your own words the prophet was a paedophile.
Third, if a man rapes a woman. She gets into trouble because she admits having sex with someone who’s not her husband. To prove something in Islamic court you need to muslim men of good standing, don’t you? Seems like the odds are stacked in the mysogynists favour to me.
March 27th, 2007 at 5:15 am
Here’s one of the sites I got information from: http://www.homa.org/Details.asp?ContentID=2137352728&TOCID=2083225348
It doesn’t matter though, you agree with me that he had sex with a 9 year old. You just pretend that that’s a good example for us to follow.
March 27th, 2007 at 6:15 am
@skids
So if a woman doesn’t be quiet and act in a way that pleases her husband. It’s his god given right to beat her. Do you believe this or choose not to believe you scriptures?
With all due respect skids, what you did is issue an ignorant Fatwa. Muslims have a big problem with this in these times. You can get a religious edict that allows you to do just about anything these days. Islamic law was never based on a literal unconditioned reading of the Quran. It draws from the Hadith and also from the state of the Prophet himself which has only been transmitted through people (and not through books). Naturally, this is hard and requires a lot of patience.
Unfortunately, that’s not popular in these times of lack of patience and instant gratification so you have every Abdul, Zaid and Omar issuing Fatwas on even tremendous things like the lives of other people. The classical scholars used to be wary even when issuing a ruling on something trivial like how to lie down to sleep.
There are such classical people these days but they don’t get much press since they speak sense and that doesn’t sell. Even indigenous Muslim societies have this problem. I have to put up with this nonsense even inside my own family (the know it all). It’s probably the most serious problem Islamic societies have these days. It’s not a problem of “believing in Dogma” and “not questioning revelation”. It’s just that the majority of the people don’t know the Dogma or the revelation. Learning Islamic law is a tad harder than googling out a verse from the Quran or a Hadith and waving it around which is what the ignorant do. That includes the minority who are being discussed here as well as your run off the mill atheist/agnostic who doesn’t know anything about the religion except what he’s read off a bunch of websites.
March 27th, 2007 at 7:27 am
I totally agree with what N says, he actually expressed what I want to say, and I couldn’t put in words, to know Islam, you have to know more than Quran, it’s really complicated, and I agree with that he has to put with the nonsense in his family, I have the same situation, people get confused on what they know and what the right.
The government in ME shut the knowlegble people who know Islam well for their own benefits.
Skids,
What our prophet says didn’t contrdict with what the scince said, on contrary the scince support what our prophet said, the only differnce how our prophet phrased it, the only reason for that because he can’t tell somebody that there is electric charge in the semens and etc, do you think that would make sense to these people at this time, again you think and assume that people has the same mentality as yours now, but you are more educated and more knowledgable, please remember that.
March 27th, 2007 at 9:22 am
Disgusting. Mohamed and N, you are obscuring the truth. Your religion teaches inequity between the sexes. If that wasn’t enough, it also discusses the merits of wife-beating. So we are to belive that there is a legitimate moral question as to what degree of force is acceptable to encourage female submission?
We are told that the teachings of your prophet were deliberately vague and twisted because people of that time were not as educated as they are today. That is the very reason we can, today, call his teachings what they really are, lies.
March 27th, 2007 at 9:24 am
Well Mohammed, whether I do or do not understand arabic is up to you to believe, but at least try to focus a minute, will ya?
1. I found the site by googling for “iza a’ala manei el rajol manei el mara’ah”. Nothing to do about it being in arabic since I have no clue how to translate that(”if the man’s sperm (proceeds? tops?) the woman’s (water?)”
2. The site states to references
3. I had a discussion about it with a (moslem) friend of mine and he sent me a PDF containing a few pages about this stuff
4. The PDF mentioned this specific scientists by full name and two Russians only by last name. I couldn’t find the russians, but I found this guy.
5. He never released a scientific paper on the issue, instead he’s making money out of it.
See the logic? You say it’s “proven” when the guy never even released a paper, instead he gave a vague argument and is making money.
Now why did I mention this whole thing in the first place? Because you said you never heard about it. Now that you have perhaps you can convince the guys here who think it’s a fairytale among fairytales.
And care to explain to me how it wasn’t acceptable to bury girls alive? They used to do it quite often, so I think it was quite acceptable(in that specific culture and time).
I never said Mohammed didn’t do any good things, stay on topic please.
March 27th, 2007 at 10:35 am
Ahhh fuck it;
Eventually all the middle eastern women will realize what they’ve been subjected to, and revolt. Through the internet, talking with friends; slowly by word of mouth and human rights groups, they will all know they can have a better life elsewhere. They will all leave their homelands and go marry non-secual europeans, and us north americans can enjoy freaky butt-sex.
I mean, if your were a chick, living in a country where you could be killed for just making a mistake? Muhammed or anyone; if you support these women being stoned to death, in any way, you deserve to burn in whatever hell you fear most.
March 27th, 2007 at 11:09 am
@gabrielAmerican
Disgusting. Mohamed and N, you are obscuring the truth. Your religion teaches inequity between the sexes.
If you’re sure that you know what Islam teaches based on what you’ve read off some sites better than me and people who practice it daily, there’s really nothing more to say.
March 27th, 2007 at 11:29 am
@ N-
I need only read your posts to understand your ignorance. Do you deny the words of your holy book? No. You simply do what virtually every theist does, you cherry pick verses to prove your points, you say the problem is not with the faith, but with the followers of the faith. Then, you assume that if someone calls out the problems with your religion they must not have a full comprehension of what the religion teaches.
In my studies, indeed my life, I have attempted to understand many different faiths. I have studied Arabic, read the koran, and spoken with many Muslims on a range of subjects.
Don’t be so quick to pat yourself on the back and pretend those who find your antiquated view of the world dangerous and delusional are somehow arguing from ignorance.
Even the slightest hint of justifying indoctrinated inequity stinks of 1400 year old camel dung.
March 27th, 2007 at 12:02 pm
@gabrielAmerican
In my first post on this thread, I stressed the need to study the religion wholly in order to understand what it teaches. In my humble opinion, that’s the opposite of cherry picking. Taking one verse and waving it around. That’s what I think is cherry picking.
Calling out problems with the religion is essential to practising it properly. It’s required of every Muslim but that’s another topic. One needn’t even have full comprehension of the faith to mention these problems. However, from your posts, your opinion doesn’t sound like one to take seriously. If you have seriously made an attempt to study the religion, more power to you but from your posts, it looks like you’ve failed in your attempts.
A comment board is hardly the place to discuss issues such as this so I’ll leave it here. Thanks for your insights.
March 27th, 2007 at 1:05 pm
The other thing to add here, you can’t try to study something and you are not ready to understand, and also you have to understand the culture beside understanding the religion to know what the differnce between what comes from religion and what come from Islam.
To study Quran, you have to know arabic well, which is really hard, even for me and I’m Arabic talking, I don’t see any different in sexes in Islam, yeah may be there some area in ME where they treay women in a bad way, but that not the case in all countries, ans woman has its role in Islam in our prophet era, one of them was Aisha, she was leading men a lot of times.
And what about USA, there is no woman beating, did it come from religion too?, or is it something came out of insecurity from a man to feel he is superior than a woman.
Like N says, you cherry piking things for Islam, and ypu forget that this things happene every day in Western countries.
What happens if some woman attacked you?, would you beat the heck out of her and make no differnce between sexes, or you don’t do it because she is a woman and you are gentle man and you can’t hurt her?
Please answer this question and let me know what’s your answer, because I faced this situation in USA, and they consider me make differnce between sexes because I was explainig that I can’t shout at woman(because that’s how I raised), so I turned out to be the bad guy, and odd enough I was the one who discrimnated against in first place.
March 27th, 2007 at 1:19 pm
@N-
I don’t wish to sound like a prick, but I understand you can’t be expected to shake off centuries of misinformation and myth very easily. It is not, simply, Islam that falls victim to this manipulation. It is all belief systems that require suspension of reason in order to understand this world and our place in it.
Again, splitting hairs over how best to reprimand women when they disobey does not further social growth. Even if your prophet said it’s best not to hit them, he still leaves the decision up to the man. Why didn’t he say “Don’t ever hit women” or “Once in a while, make dinner for your wife you watch the kids, for a change, while she hangs out with her friends.”
Perhaps, it’s because he lived in a differnt time and was concerned with maintaining a male dominated social structure. Or, more to the point, he was attempting to carve out of his time a social/MERCHANT culture that would best benefit him and the men around him.
If you wish to take the, “agree to disagree” approach, fine, but if we can’t air our views (warts and all) in a comment board where can we? The local mosque, church, or temple aren’t really options. Have you seen how some people react when their religious views are challenged?
March 27th, 2007 at 1:29 pm
The concept of honour in these killings is ridiculous. There is no honour in killing people, and even less in killing helpless people. All they accomplish is proving that they are irrational and clearly suffering from some kind of a delusion.
Rant:
If a religious text is not clear, concise and without possibility for interpretations, it cannot be from a divine being. IF your divine being is all knowing and all powerful then there is no reason why the message of the texts would suffer along the years. Considering that divine beings are seen as eternal, then few years should not be an obstacle to them in phrasing their message in a way that it remains true.
@mohammed
if I am attacked, I assess the situation and act accordingly. If that woman intents to kill me, I subdue her. If she is crazy, I subdue her. If the attacker is a man, I act in a similar fashion. I make no difference between sexes and I do not “beat the heck” out of people because they attack me. Could I cause severe damage if I would want to? We all can but the self-control is the thing separating reasonable and unreasonable people.
ta daa
March 27th, 2007 at 3:16 pm
Mohammed:
“you can’t try to study something and you are not ready to understand”
Have you tried to study something you don’t want understand? Or are you saying it’s because you’re not ready to understand that you might be wrong, a lot?
“and also you have to understand the culture beside understanding the religion to know what the differnce between what comes from religion and what come from Islam.”
We don’t HAVE to understand ANYTHING to ask questions about it, which is what he was doing. You assholes are the supposed “experts” here, and the fact that you are DANCING around the issues makes you both look stupid. No one has to understand arabic to criticize the Quaran; and no one certainly has to take the extreme approach you have to religion, to “understand” how you justify it’s actions.
“I don’t see any different in sexes in Islam, yeah may be there some area in ME where they treay women in a bad way, but that not the case in all countries, ans woman has its role in Islam in our prophet era, one of them was Aisha, she was leading men a lot of times. And what about USA, there is no woman beating, did it come from religion too?, or is it something came out of insecurity from a man to feel he is superior than a woman.”
Just because YOU don’t see something, doesn’t mean it’s less valid, or not apparant to EVERYONE else. And stop belittling your religious like Christiany has; either accept the fact that you are a supporter of great evil, or stop calling yourself a Muslim. And lastly,
“What happens if some woman attacked you?, would you beat the heck out of her and make no differnce between sexes, or you don’t do it because she is a woman and you are gentle man and you can’t hurt her?”
Only North Americans deserve the right to beat women; and then, it’s only because we actually see them as real people. North America alone has done more for women’s rights than the every country in the WHOLE world, put together. Here, because women know and seek equality in men, would it be ok to DEFEND yourself against a woman.
N:
“However, from your posts, your opinion doesn’t sound like one to take seriously.”
Typical defeatest religious backpeddling; instead of educating and facilitating explanation with whatever you think he doesn’t understand, you simply pull some elitest “No True Scottsman” bullshit. You guys are the ones who don’t understand, not gabriel; because at least he’s trying.
March 27th, 2007 at 4:16 pm
N “With all due respect skids, what you did is issue an ignorant Fatwa. Muslims have a big problem with this in these times. You can get a religious edict that allows you to do just about anything these days.”
With all due respect I asked Mohammed about this stuff. He explained that he agreed totally with the text that I posted. If that makes up an ignornant Fatwa, so be it. Shows how up to interpretation religion is. As has been stated above. If your holy texts were from god, don’t you think he’d be able to put it together in a coherrent, non negotiable form that wouldn’t allow people like you to pick and choose and polish the bits that suit your sensibilities nor the local yokels from choosing theirs? Isn’t he all knowing? It’s a man made text, like all religious texts. You defend it all you like, but that’s show’s your ignorance.
March 27th, 2007 at 5:37 pm
Most Muslims are not Arabs.
Most Muslims do not, therefore, speak or read Arabic.
In addition, I would guess that many Muslims in the majority of Muslim countries are illiterate given that the majority of them are third world countries where illiteracy is the norm.
So, the majority of Muslims cannot read the Quran in Arabic, or any other language for that matter.
So, according to Mohamed, the majority of Muslims cannot understand their own holy book or, it follows, their own religion.
This is one of the three handfuls of sand they like to throw in our eyes: 1. You took it out of context. 2. You have to read it in Arabic. 3. (my favorite) When it says kill all infidels, it really means plant bluebells whenever possible.
March 27th, 2007 at 7:44 pm
Correct me if I’m wrong, but didn’t the Old Testament talk a lot about divine wrath and stonings and the like? And also, don’t the Jews still follow that Testament? Yet I don’t see them stoning people. The details about whether Muhammed did this or that in a given translation of the Qur’an (something I’ll get to in a bit) aren’t as important as how the people use those teachings today.
I think the problem is one more of education than anything else. Shortly after Muhammed died and the Muslims started developing a vast empire there was an age of virtual free reign among people and thinkers while the Christians were attacking anyone who even seemed like they might oppose them. They used the same Qur’an then as they do now. So we can’t just blame verses for this. We have to ask what is causing these people to do this? How is religion being used against these people, and what can we do? To simply blame the book seems way too hasty to me.
Also, a note on Qur’an translations: I remember seeing, only in passing, someone who was going to make a translation that didn’t translate a certain Arabic word as ‘to beat’ but as ‘to leave’ or something like that. Whether this is appropriate or accurate is up for questioning, but the point is clear: translation makes no small difference in understanding what Muhammed did and did not do. Unless you have -the- source, I’d say be careful as to exactly what is said.
March 27th, 2007 at 8:05 pm
Snurp what you say works so long as people interpret their holy book via todays moral standards. In other words where their book speaks of killings, beatings, punishment, they are seen as allegories or not to be taken literally. Which leads to the question where do they get their morals from? It certainly isn’t from their holy books. We’ve come along way since those books were written. I’d say the enlightenment provided a lot of our morals today, hopefully we’ve moved on from those days too.
Unfortunately, a lot of believers do take their holy books as litteral at least in part. So, the verses then do matter a great deal.
So, most people ignore their holy book, in which case they are correctly called apostates or they take their holy book seriously in which case they are stuck in another time period, one which we need to leave behind.
March 27th, 2007 at 8:22 pm
I’m not saying that you have to know Arabic to know Islam, all I tried to say, that if you really want to go deep in Islam, you have to read a lot of Arabic and study a lot of books, to get judgment for any thing.
Shaze, you just some of BS, like North American men deserve to beat a woman, and bla bla, how many woman in congress?, I heard so many men said that they wouldn’t elect Hilary because she is a woman, in contrary if I hold the American nationality I would elect her. you still think that you gave the woman carrot to be happy with, even in USA there is still a lot of rights not granted for woman, how can you gice a woman a right if a woman is a girl friend for stupid person, he just screw here few times and got a baby and then he disappeard, and listen to your music that talking about woman like B and S and so many bad words for women like they are slaves for a man.
Wake up, see what’s going on in USA and see how perfect is USA and then come talk about human rights.
You can talk about human rights when you talk about woman but you don’t even notice and don’t cheer for when it comes to prisoner in Guantanmo with out evidence, where are you from that, you are talking about human rights and USA inavaded Iraq illegaly with a punch of lies, do you want to go on. At least I know what’s wrong in my country and I’m not ashamed to mentioned and try to fight it, not like you freedom that you claim slipping away every day from your hand and you come here and be as stupid as you can, and you don’t want even to think.
March 27th, 2007 at 8:55 pm
Hey Mohamed, no ones saying that the USA, Egypt or any place is perfect. Just that the US and a lot of other countries grant women rights. Now, that fact that there are a lot of reactionary turds who mistreat women just means we got a long way to go. But, and here’s where you continually trip over yourself is that secular people don’t preach that it’s ok to hit a woman, which you have stated your religion does. You may cushion that with “buy my religion says it’s better if you dont”, but that’s just sweetening up. Your relgion, if it cared about women would say that nobody has the right to inflict violence against anybody, regardless of sex, age, ethinicity. It plainly doesn’t do this. This isn’t just a problem with Islam either, all religions I’m familiar with have stupid ideas.
Now, you have said it’s ok to use violence against a person for punishment, in fact, it’s ok to kill them in the name of punishment. Who the hell are you to decide to punish? If you truly believed you religion, you would leave it up to god to punish, not people.
March 27th, 2007 at 9:38 pm
So what do you mean? does it mean if somebody comitted crime, should we set him free, if somebody killed you, should we let him go, offcourse there should a punishment.
The other fact that you don’t consider, that most of the countries to talk about, they were occipied either by the british or the french, and we got the freedom last 50 years or even less, so what do you expect, do you expect these countries to be civlized in one night.
Reas the history and see how long it took USA to be what it is now, or how long it took USA to get rid of slavery and give the Black people their right and yet it’s not perfect.
Every thing takes time, childern don’t wake the moment they came out, the crawl and then they try to stand up and fall and then they walk, it takes time.
Every body talk here as an expert in Middle East, nobody knows what the background and the history of it, and every body talks about the fact from one face.
It’s really complicated to understand the people nature in the ME, otherwise CIA would be the best figure this out and the wouldn’t go to Iraq in first place.
March 27th, 2007 at 9:56 pm
I’m not talking about punishment for crime in general. I’m talking about punishment handed out by people who feel they understand what is right. I’m totally against violence or the death penalty. You seem to think it’s ok to punish a woman for sleeping with a man. It’s none of your business. You have no right to punish or say that the punishment was fair. A woman can sleep with whatever man she likes. A man can sleep with whatever women he likes. It’s up to the people involved to work out what is it they want and how this affects their loved ones. It’s none of your or your religions business.
As for the middle east being a simple child that can’t handle itself. You claim this, but the moment we say you’re backward you say how great Islam is, etc. I mean only yesterday you claimed that science agreed with Islam, which it plainly doesn’t.
I know some of the history of the middle east, and I think the way the colonial powers have acted was terrible. I’m totally against the invasion of Iraq. I think that the Isreally attacks on Lebanon were ghastly. I think the current ramping up of threats against Iran is just stupid. But I don’t think that absolves you of your responsibility to use your mind. Don’t think that Islam is good just ’cause a book says so. Don’t think that Mohamed (prophet, not you) was a decent person just because you were told it. You made it quite clear yesterday that by civilized standards he was a terrible person. Yet you defend him as a role model.
March 28th, 2007 at 12:11 am
As has been stated above. If your holy texts were from god,
The religion is not a book dropped from the sky onto people with a flowchart on how to live their lives. That seems to be prevalent assumption here and it’s wrong.
You guys are the ones who don’t understand, not gabriel; because at least he’s trying.
Trying to teach someone about Islam on a message comment board is like trying to teach someone who doesn’t know basic Mathematics differential calculus. It might be possible but I lack the skill to do it. I can’t make a judgement about how well informed gabrielAmerican is but from his posts, I don’t think he’s very well informed about what he’s talking about.
It is not, simply, Islam that falls victim to this manipulation. It is all belief systems that require suspension of reason in order to understand this world and our place in it.
Almost every system of laws can be manipulated to serve the needs of the powerful. The laws that prohibit this are skilfully avoided. That’s what lawyers do. The Islamic equivalents are the Qadis many of whom are quite corrupt and use the religion as a means for keeping their purses full. This whole wife beating thing is a good example. There are rulings on the need to be compassionate to ones wife, there are detailed rules on the rights of the wife over the husband, about the responsibilities of the husband towards the wife, about the way in which to run a family. The wife-beaters I’ve heard of sound like the only verse they know from the whole Quran is the one quoted above. To liberate onesself from this abuse of law (in the Islamic context) requires that one studies the laws that pertain to ones life properly. It’s akin to “staying informed”. This is not easy in many tribal societies and it’s one of the problems that our religion is facing which we need to work on. I try to do my part where I am but it’s not much. I don’t however think that getting rid of the religion as whole will help since in my experience, it’s done a lot of good for people and the harms are almost always because of neglect of the whole and emphasis of favourable parts. ie. cherry picking.
There is no “suspension of reason”. It’s another way of looking at things which makes one grateful for what one has and prevents one from being an oppressor. That’s what Islam has done for most of the people I know and that’s why I think it’s a good thing. Your experiences might be different and I can’t contest that but you see where I’m coming from.
If you wish to take the, “agree to disagree†approach, fine, but if we can’t air our views (warts and all) in a comment board where can we?
We can air our views here. But I don’t think it does any good for either of us to do so.
Have you seen how some people react when their religious views are challenged?
This is a sad truth and the main reason why I stay out of discussions with such people unless they’re either knowledgeable enough to have a decent discussion or they’re influential enough to cause harm because of the positions they hold.
March 28th, 2007 at 12:47 am
N,
I think most of the people here need to go and stay little bit of time in ME and they might see and experience how people live their daily life, thye might learn something, if they really want to, but it’s abvious that people here comes loades with the media view of Islam and then they add to it by reading for slective web sites which they really prove theire views and it tells them what they want to hear.
I had different view of American people after coming to USA than before I came to USA, because I had real experience with the American people, I knew them for real, I was ablt to understand how they think because I wanted it to know how they think, I gave them excuses for these things they might do which it may against my beleifs, because I knew where is it coming from.
But you people you will be the same, ignorant, unwilling to accept the others, try to feel good about your self, and make other look bad, so you feel happy about your fairy tales, which actually I would beleive fairy tales more than yours.
March 28th, 2007 at 12:56 am
But you people you will be the same, ignorant, unwilling to accept the others, try to feel good about your self, and make other look bad, so you feel happy about your fairy tales, which actually I would beleive fairy tales more than yours.
Are you chastising me for something? I have reservations about so called “progressive secular western liberal” societies but I think there are great people everywhere religious and otherwise. My comments on this thread were meant to point out that most of the “your book says this and so either you’re not a serious Muslim or you’re cherry picking” type of argument that’s so common in atheist circles are based on ignorance of Islamic law and how it’s derived.
March 28th, 2007 at 1:01 am
N,
Don’t misunderstand me, it wasn’t you I meant about this quote, I was talking about the other, sorry for not being specfic.
I think you actually helping me with my point.
Thank you
March 28th, 2007 at 1:02 am
N: “My comments on this thread were meant to point out that most of the “your book says this and so either you’re not a serious Muslim or you’re cherry picking†type of argument that’s so common in atheist circles are based on ignorance of Islamic law and how it’s derived.”
As I’ve stated above, that is the problem with all religions. And you may be the most caring, decent person that’s existed, but you are part of a system that isn’t. Religion robs people of power. If you truly believe your religion, you loose the power to consider how the world is without religion.
I believe that Islam has a thing called abrogation, in which scholars determine which passage is correct based on it’s order in which the prophet said it. That means the prophet contradicted himself. Not the actions of a prophet at least as far as I can see. Maybe you do need to study the religion for many years, learn arabic and get your into the right headspace. But most muslims will never do this, and will just take it literally or as told to them by their Imam. May you do this, and for what? If you just leave the dogma, live by the golden rule, which is not inspired by religion, you can everything you have now, and not have to do all these things to please a non-existent god.
March 28th, 2007 at 1:10 am
We don’t take any thing that’s not credible from our Imams like you say, some government now hire these imams to tell people what they want, and then they are not credible enough.
Gos exists, and evey you know about that, and that’s why you are here to feel good about your self, and make people give you the feeling that he doesn’t exist, but I can tell you that he really exists.
Every thing around can tell you he exists, that’s if you look deep enough.
March 28th, 2007 at 1:19 am
@Skids:
And you may be the most caring, decent person that’s existed, but you are part of a system that isn’t.
I could say the same thing about you and we could go on and on. In my experience, people who believe and practice the faith which I follow live lives vastly superior in every aspect that I can see than those who don’t. That’s my experience and that’s what I’m basing my comments on. The “follow the golden rule and don’t believe in a non-existent god” crowd just don’t deliver the goods as well as the religious folks do. It sounds perfectly logical but in my experience, it simply doesn’t work.
March 28th, 2007 at 4:23 am
Hey N, the statistics tell a diffent story. And have you ever heard of an Atheist war? I’ve heard of holy wars, and crusades, etc. In my own experience, I’m very happy.I know religious types, and they’re all hamstrung with what they can and can’t do. Hoping to get to heaven and wasting this one life they have. As for the system I’m part of being evil. I didn’t know atheism was a system. It’s just the lack of belief in gods.
March 28th, 2007 at 11:09 am
There is not Athiesm war, because there are not enough athiest, do you think there is Muslims wars??????, or do you think there are Christians war?
At leaset when I get in danger and where is no help around, I know to ask for help, just raise my hand and ask, but who would ask? the evolution:)))))))))))))).
March 28th, 2007 at 11:38 am
“In my experience, people who believe and practice the faith which I follow live lives vastly superior in every aspect that I can see than those who don’t. That’s my experience and that’s what I’m basing my comments on.”
How do you know? Do you hang around with non-beleivers? Do you go to their parties, keggers and orgy’s? How do you know you can even see every aspect of life? Or that you are open to change? The wisest people I’ve met on this earth are the ones that realize they know nothing, and that true wisdom comes from humility, not beleif.
“The “follow the golden rule and don’t believe in a non-existent god†crowd just don’t deliver the goods as well as the religious folks do.”
The goods? What fucking goods? Trust me my islamic brothers, you wouldn’t know true happiness if it came up and bit you both in the ass.
Mohamed:
Oh, there is an Athiest war, trust me; you may not see it yet, but there is A LOT you guys choose not to see.
March 28th, 2007 at 12:22 pm
“At leaset when I get in danger and where is no help around, I know to ask for help, just raise my hand and ask”
and how’s that worked out for you? care to share some examples where you actually received help? total nonsense…
March 28th, 2007 at 4:19 pm
Or as the Ostrich said ““At leaset when I get in danger and where is no help around, I know to ask for help, just raise my hand and ask— no sorry, he said: At least when I get in danger I stick my head in the sand and pretend all is good…..
March 28th, 2007 at 6:33 pm
@Shaze:
“Oh, there is an Athiest war, trust me; you may not see it yet, but there is A LOT you guys choose not to see.”
Are you talking about the Atheist Jihad?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IPBX9zAaI38
March 28th, 2007 at 6:56 pm
I just love the oxymoron “Atheist Jihad”, beautiful.
March 29th, 2007 at 5:10 pm
Why are some of you so insultive towards Mohamed and N? Did I overlook a harsh comment from their side? If not I suggest to cool down. I appreciate their taking part in the discussions on this site and they need not to be insulted.
I also understand Mohamed’s remark about us not understanding the Mideast. There is religious fundamentalism (you may complain about Mohamed - look at Amedinejad), there is daily violence (most prominent example: Palestine) and there is oppression (talking about Egypt, right, Mohamed?). There are hundrets of fanatic power groups trying to get a grip at people, all too often successful. People are most often badly educated (and in some cases, not educated at all). Now to make my point clear, I’m not saying that’s an excuse. People do have a brain and a conscience and they are responsible for their actions. But we should as well understand that life is completely different there. Hell, I don’t fully understand France and Poland although I live right in between them!
March 29th, 2007 at 6:32 pm
Atheist: “Why are some of you so insultive towards Mohamed and N?”
Well, I may be wrong, but I hope I’m being insulting to their beliefs. I separate the person from the belief. By and large we don’t choose our socio-cultural upbringing. But we can choose to think. I respect peoples rights to have wacky beliefs, but I reserve the right to call them that. They certainly paint my lack of beliefs as wacky.
I think one has to be careful not to give religion an easy ride. It’s an idea like any other. Up for discussion. If religious people don’t like discussion, bad luck.
March 30th, 2007 at 2:03 am
I think atheist is raising a valid point. Skids has been quite polite in his comments on the overall but I’ve had people on this forum and others which I sometimes frequent whose idea of a “discussion” is to call anyone who has faith a “retard” or to compare them with people with a lobotomy.
While I don’t really care what their points of view are, when people come out with stuff like that, it kills the desire to talk or be in the same area as that person.
Most of the religions people I know don’t mind talking about and questioning aspects of their faith but it should be understood that it’s something close to their hearts which influences almost aspects of their lives. Even if an atheist had a noble intention of liberating the religious person from what he thinks is ignorance, insulting him or what he holds dear is not the way to go about it. Apart from being incompatible with decent social values, it just won’t work.
This lack of civility is not a problem with agnostics/atheists alone. It’s a problem with many believers too. I get pretty much the same response from some fundamentalist Christians when I present an Islamic viewpoint to them. But then when I see people (atheists/agnostics) who call these fundamentalists ignorant and behave *exactly* like them, I tend to not take them seriously. The kind of people who get a kick from putting others down. This is also the reason why I don’t really watch comparative religion debates.
But I digress, 63 comments is not that long for a thread on this site but I think it’s enough.
Thanks for the comments everyone.
March 30th, 2007 at 3:02 am
Hey N, you say you don’t like commenting, and see no value in it, yet you do. Care to enlighten this hell bound atheist why?
March 30th, 2007 at 6:48 am
Oh, I’m not totally against it. I’m sorry if I gave that appearance.
I just think that some subjects are too subtle to be discussed by people using a comment board when their backgrounds and experiences are too different.
You probably have a good idea of how many times you’ve posted the usual arguments (celestial coffee pot etc.) and received statements based on faith and personal experiences. I don’t think people benefit from those kind of exchanges. That’s why I don’t really respond to Shaze or Boris on this site.
But the point which atheist raised in his post above is a more general thing and I think we can both relate to it. ie. The need for civility in a discussion.
March 30th, 2007 at 7:20 am
N: “The need for civility in a discussion.”
Agreed. As voltaire said, I don’t agree with what you say, but I will die so that you can…..
March 30th, 2007 at 7:23 am
I’m ok with you saying things are too subtle, but please explain with your most subtle method how a 50 year old betrothing a 6 year old, then having sex with her when she’s 9 is not a predatory act. If you believe that god gave the all clear, then say so.
March 30th, 2007 at 8:43 am
It looks like a predatory act when viewed in our cultural context and it’s commonly quoted. I believe that it wasn’t so when viewed in the context of the time. The topic is discussed in detail here if you’re interested.
It’s similar to the ages of consent throughout the world these days. 18 is like a hard line in the US (from what I know) but that’s not the case in other parts of the world. It ranges from 9 to 21 according to this map.
So, the bottom line is that Muslims don’t view it a predatory act of a paedophile but rather as a normal wedding which was appropriate at that time.
March 30th, 2007 at 9:18 am
N: “a normal wedding which was appropriate at that time.”
That isn’t what I’m asking. You are not of that time. I am not of that time. But the guy is supposed to be perfect or at least the best example to us. And he most assuredly isn’t perfect for this time.
P.S. why is same-sex marriage nihilistic? they didn’t choose there sexuality. It’s well known that it’s the effect of hormones on the fetus.
So he did betrove her at 6 and marry her at 9.
This is sad:
“Narrated ‘Aishah, may God be pleased with her: The Messenger of God May the Peace and Blessings of God be upon him said (to me): “You have been shown to me twice in (my) dreams. A man was carrying you in a silken cloth and said to me, ‘This is your wife.’ I uncovered it; and behold, it was you. I said to myself, ‘If this dream is from God, He will cause it to come true.’” (Saheeh Bukhari, Volume 7, Book 62, Number 15)”
This is the sad excuse? So the prophet had dreams about a child, and why wouldn’t he say this? If that’s what he wanted? After all, he claimed divine right and his followers accept his word.
This is brilliant:
“Their values DO NOT come straight out of the Bible-in theory or in practice-regardless of what they may claim. That Christians today try to take credit for the so-called “Freedom”, “Human Rights”, “Democracy” and “Women’s Rights” in Europe and America is nothing short of a joke. It may impress uneducated people in so-called Third World countries, but anyone who has studied history knows that these things came about in spite of the Church, not because of it. The way in which many Christians uncritically mix non-Christian values with (allegedly) Biblical values has always fascinated me. One interesting example of this is how nationalism and patriotism are supported amongst the majority of Evangelical Protestant (and even other) Christians in the United States. In America, good Christians are flag wavers. Few, if any, of these fiercely patriotic minds ever seem to realize that narrow-minded patriotism is, at its core, both selfish and non-universal. That patriotism and Christianity go hand-in-hand in the minds of many people is just an example of how we can be blindly sucked into “moral relativism” without even realizing it.”
Really? I missed the history lesson where the Catholic or any christian church tried to advance human thinking at the expense of their hegmony. . They locked up Galileo for example when he didn’t agree with them. The US was based on a separation of church and state. The churches didn’t advance anything. Sadly that is diminishing. Interestingly good Muslims are flag wavers too.
And again: ” Puberty is a biological sign which shows that a women is capable of bearing children. Can anyone logically deny this?”
No, I don’t deny it. Buy we aren’t living in the Savanah being hunted by lions anymore. We can afford to let a child develop psychologically too now. We don’t have to force them into sex anymore, lest they not have issue.
“This was a Europe that had abandoned (or at least modified) its religious morality for a new set of humanist values where people used their own opinions to determine what was right and wrong.”
I sincerely hope so, the enlightenment was a few centuries ago, I hope we’ve moved on.
“Based on the culture at that time, no one saw anything wrong with it. On the contrary, they were all happy about it.”
No shit, it was a patriachal society.
“None of the Muslim sources report that anyone from the society at that time criticized this marriage due to ‘Aishah’s young age.”
No shit, he was the guy they’d tied their saddle bags to. They wouldn’t admit they’d backed the wrong horse.
“Society’s ideas of love, family and marriage are much different in the so-called “modern” and “civilized” West of today than they were in Biblical or Qur’anic times.”
No shit, that’s why we are saying he isn’t a good role model for people of today.
“They are taken aback by the thought of marriage at the age of puberty, even though it’s an age old custom. ”
Because humans rarely lived past 30 years, now we do. We can afford the time to let children become adults.
I read it, sadly ( or not) it didn’t give a reason why the prophet’s marriange to a child makes sense today. If you argue that morals are unchangeable. Then you support slavery, because that was normal at the time of the prophet……
March 30th, 2007 at 9:51 am
One more thing. I just looked at the side bar. I am almost the last respondant on each thread. I really need to get a life. My wife has given up on me and gone to bed!
To gasmonso: Thanks for your site.
To Mohamed and N: Thanks for your indulgence, Sorry I’m not pliable enough to see your point. I did try, but I guess it’s my atheist, secular view of the world. I’m not christian, therefore I don’t consider arguments to a higher power. However I abhore abuse no matter how many religious scholars say it’s ok for a 50 year old to have sex with a child. That’s why your prophet would be first in hell if there was one.
Ad alias: Thanks for your indulgence.
Ave atque vale.
Vivete in pace.
Labor meus hic est fatus.
Skids mortuus est.
March 30th, 2007 at 10:31 am
By the way N, I’m really disappointed that when you had your big chance to justify your paedophilic prophet you resorted to dogma. That is, because “learned” believers say it’s so, therefore those who believe can’t argue. For such are reasonable person, why don’t you reason? It’s really easy, let go of the belief and reason…..
Oh sorry, I’m dead. Vayan con dios.
March 30th, 2007 at 11:15 am
Thank you for your indulgence Skids. Good night.
March 30th, 2007 at 11:28 am
No shit, that’s why we are saying he isn’t a good role model for people of today.
I don’t really understand your reasoning. Although the message is for all time, the Prophet himself was someone who lived 1400 odd years ago. His roles in society, the way he went about his daily life would definitely have been influenced by the society he was in. He was a person of his time. eg. The religion extols over and over again the importance of staying clean. The prophetic companions however used to wipe their hands under their feet when they were done eating. That was simply the way it was done back then. Anyone who did that now wouldn’t be considered clean but the message still stands. This is analogous.
But anyway, this is getting old. Good night again. :)
March 30th, 2007 at 2:10 pm
Killing infidels and having sex with a 9 year old would just be the way things were done back then?
0_o
Where does one draw the line between true message and sign of the times? Ever think that making up divine stories was also a sign of the times?
If he were alive today he’d be in a mental house, prison, or dead. Either that or leading a religious sect in the south, sleeping in a big pile of money.
March 31st, 2007 at 10:09 pm
gasmonso,
Do you have any concern for the non-Muslim women in the UNited States who are beaten/killed by their husbands/boyfriends? LIke the saying goes charity begins at home.
DO you think that Iraqi and Afghani women, children and men don’t mind having their bodies crush and burned by bombs just because they come from democratic countries?
There are Muslim activists in the West, as well as in Muslim countries that are trying to improve things. But the mainstream media hardly pays attention to them. They ask why aren’t Muslims doing anything about these issues, but at the same time ignore those who are trying to change things. It’s as if the mainstream media really doesn’t want things to improve and just want to have a group of people to mock and criticize.
April 3rd, 2007 at 3:12 pm
Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain.
Democrats and Republicans are the only path to social and political change. Hard work and devotion; you must see that the ideals and morals our fathers set forth for us, are applicable today. Change does not happen out of free will or random events; it is all choice.
I choose not to see the change surrounding us. I choose to ignore the way it affects others’ lives and my own. And I am genuinly surprised by everything that happens to me. I am much more important than a large majority of the world, because I choose to beleive in a world I do not quite understand.
But I *know* that we are doomed.
April 3rd, 2007 at 4:19 pm
Shaze wrote:
“…you must see that the ideals and morals our fathers set forth for us, are applicable today…”
The founding fathers of America slept with underage girls and owned slaves. How is that different from what you accuse the prophet of Islam of doing?
April 3rd, 2007 at 5:27 pm
They did? Well I dunno about whole sleeping with underage girls part, seems you might be pulling that one out of your ass. (You know, what with history being COMPLETELY accurate n’ everything)
And it’s different because people don’t still worship old presidents; and even if they did, I bet they’d be smart enough to know not to vote for Bush.
April 3rd, 2007 at 9:45 pm
Shaze,
Thomas Jefferson slept with an underage slave girl. You can find people who admire him.
Muslims don’t worship the prophet of Islam, that is considered idolatory.
April 3rd, 2007 at 11:04 pm
@RandallJones
“The founding fathers of America slept with underage girls”
“Thomas Jefferson slept with an underage slave girl”
the progression of your claim smells of fabrication. got any documented source? how underage was she? since when is admiring anything like worshiping? the way muslims flip out when any says anything negative about “the prophet” sure seems like worship to me…
April 3rd, 2007 at 11:55 pm
Just like Muslims debate about Muhammed and Aishia, Americans debate about Thomas Jefferson and Sally Hemmings.
April 3rd, 2007 at 11:59 pm
boris,
what about when Americans flipped out when a member of the the music band the Dixie Chicks said she was ashamed of President George W. Bush?
April 4th, 2007 at 12:31 am
Skids,
Without the Quran, the prophet of Islam is still an important historical figure. He united the tribes of Arabia and after his death, the MUslims created an empire that achieved many important scientific, literary, and artistic works. In the past, historians used to say that the Muslims just preserved Ancient Greek texts. BUt they did much more than that; they corrected and added on many new discoveries.
But anyway as other have mentioned child brides was not an oddity in his time and centuries after. In modern times child brides do not just exist in the Muslim world. THey exist in many regions of the world were poverty often makes a family give/sell their daughter for a man to marry.
And the Quran does not say it is acceptable to marry child bride. Are you aware that Jewish and CHristian scriptures say it is okay to have sex with 3 year olds? See http://www.answering-christianity.com/age3.htm
April 4th, 2007 at 1:46 am
@RandallJones
yes, that was shameful alright. but people didn’t take to the streets, nothing got torched, and no one was hurt. big difference.
April 4th, 2007 at 1:49 am
oh and for the record, i have the exact same low opinion of xtianity and judaism that i have of islam. except for the minor detail that islam is a huge threat to western societies across the world and that is not acceptable…
April 4th, 2007 at 6:35 am
Boris,
So do you think that Athiest didn’t do at the same era, may be athiest had better morale at this time…
Second we don’t worship our prophet, don’t mix Cristinity with Islam, we didn’t like the cartoon, because we don’t like any body to image him, so the people could be ending worshippin him….
And when it comes to the Thomas Jefferson and Sally Hemmings, it’s not documents, it’s typical asthiest answers.
April 4th, 2007 at 12:37 pm
@mohamed
“So do you think that Athiest didn’t do at the same era, may be athiest had better morale at this time…
Second we don’t worship our prophet, don’t mix Cristinity with Islam, we didn’t like the cartoon, because we don’t like any body to image him, so the people could be ending worshippin him….
And when it comes to the Thomas Jefferson and Sally Hemmings, it’s not documents, it’s typical asthiest answers.”
WTF does that even