I began this article with a submission by Shaze, who just happens to have a knack for exposing the horrors of religion. At first I thought there was no need to cover the story. Sure it’s extremely disturbing and directly related to Islam, but I saw it as a rare incident in a part of the world that is long forgotten. Not more than a minute passed when stumbled upon this next article.
I have covered Islamic sharia law several times in the past. These incidents usually occurred in remote areas of Pakistan, Iran, Syria, and Sudan as was the case with Shaze’s story. But this latest article talks about this “honour” based violence in Britain, a modern culturally diverse nation. How could this be?
Each year there are an estimated 12 honour killings in Britain and countless more incidents violence and bullying. These are fueled by the spread of radical Islam and a warped sense of faith. Read the article for the full picture.
What I want to touch on is very simple. If this kind of extremism can find roots and potentially prosper openly in a country like Britain, what will happen as radical Islam spreads to the rest of Europe?
Related posts:
- Muslim Women All Hot And Sweaty Over Gym
- Muhammed Caricatures Spark Violence
- Muslim Crucifies Christian Slave
- Muslim Lie Sparks Jihad
- Sam Harris–Link Between Religion And Violence
N: “My comments on this thread were meant to point out that most of the “your book says this and so either you’re not a serious Muslim or you’re cherry picking†type of argument that’s so common in atheist circles are based on ignorance of Islamic law and how it’s derived.”
As I’ve stated above, that is the problem with all religions. And you may be the most caring, decent person that’s existed, but you are part of a system that isn’t. Religion robs people of power. If you truly believe your religion, you loose the power to consider how the world is without religion.
I believe that Islam has a thing called abrogation, in which scholars determine which passage is correct based on it’s order in which the prophet said it. That means the prophet contradicted himself. Not the actions of a prophet at least as far as I can see. Maybe you do need to study the religion for many years, learn arabic and get your into the right headspace. But most muslims will never do this, and will just take it literally or as told to them by their Imam. May you do this, and for what? If you just leave the dogma, live by the golden rule, which is not inspired by religion, you can everything you have now, and not have to do all these things to please a non-existent god.
We don’t take any thing that’s not credible from our Imams like you say, some government now hire these imams to tell people what they want, and then they are not credible enough.
Gos exists, and evey you know about that, and that’s why you are here to feel good about your self, and make people give you the feeling that he doesn’t exist, but I can tell you that he really exists.
Every thing around can tell you he exists, that’s if you look deep enough.
@Skids:
And you may be the most caring, decent person that’s existed, but you are part of a system that isn’t.
I could say the same thing about you and we could go on and on. In my experience, people who believe and practice the faith which I follow live lives vastly superior in every aspect that I can see than those who don’t. That’s my experience and that’s what I’m basing my comments on. The “follow the golden rule and don’t believe in a non-existent god” crowd just don’t deliver the goods as well as the religious folks do. It sounds perfectly logical but in my experience, it simply doesn’t work.
Hey N, the statistics tell a diffent story. And have you ever heard of an Atheist war? I’ve heard of holy wars, and crusades, etc. In my own experience, I’m very happy.I know religious types, and they’re all hamstrung with what they can and can’t do. Hoping to get to heaven and wasting this one life they have. As for the system I’m part of being evil. I didn’t know atheism was a system. It’s just the lack of belief in gods.
There is not Athiesm war, because there are not enough athiest, do you think there is Muslims wars??????, or do you think there are Christians war?
At leaset when I get in danger and where is no help around, I know to ask for help, just raise my hand and ask, but who would ask? the evolution:)))))))))))))).
“In my experience, people who believe and practice the faith which I follow live lives vastly superior in every aspect that I can see than those who don’t. That’s my experience and that’s what I’m basing my comments on.”
How do you know? Do you hang around with non-beleivers? Do you go to their parties, keggers and orgy’s? How do you know you can even see every aspect of life? Or that you are open to change? The wisest people I’ve met on this earth are the ones that realize they know nothing, and that true wisdom comes from humility, not beleif.
“The “follow the golden rule and don’t believe in a non-existent god†crowd just don’t deliver the goods as well as the religious folks do.”
The goods? What fucking goods? Trust me my islamic brothers, you wouldn’t know true happiness if it came up and bit you both in the ass.
Mohamed:
Oh, there is an Athiest war, trust me; you may not see it yet, but there is A LOT you guys choose not to see.
“At leaset when I get in danger and where is no help around, I know to ask for help, just raise my hand and ask”
and how’s that worked out for you? care to share some examples where you actually received help? total nonsense…
Or as the Ostrich said ““At leaset when I get in danger and where is no help around, I know to ask for help, just raise my hand and ask— no sorry, he said: At least when I get in danger I stick my head in the sand and pretend all is good…..
@Shaze:
“Oh, there is an Athiest war, trust me; you may not see it yet, but there is A LOT you guys choose not to see.”
Are you talking about the Atheist Jihad?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IPBX9zAaI38
I just love the oxymoron “Atheist Jihad”, beautiful.
Why are some of you so insultive towards Mohamed and N? Did I overlook a harsh comment from their side? If not I suggest to cool down. I appreciate their taking part in the discussions on this site and they need not to be insulted.
I also understand Mohamed’s remark about us not understanding the Mideast. There is religious fundamentalism (you may complain about Mohamed – look at Amedinejad), there is daily violence (most prominent example: Palestine) and there is oppression (talking about Egypt, right, Mohamed?). There are hundrets of fanatic power groups trying to get a grip at people, all too often successful. People are most often badly educated (and in some cases, not educated at all). Now to make my point clear, I’m not saying that’s an excuse. People do have a brain and a conscience and they are responsible for their actions. But we should as well understand that life is completely different there. Hell, I don’t fully understand France and Poland although I live right in between them!
Atheist: “Why are some of you so insultive towards Mohamed and N?”
Well, I may be wrong, but I hope I’m being insulting to their beliefs. I separate the person from the belief. By and large we don’t choose our socio-cultural upbringing. But we can choose to think. I respect peoples rights to have wacky beliefs, but I reserve the right to call them that. They certainly paint my lack of beliefs as wacky.
I think one has to be careful not to give religion an easy ride. It’s an idea like any other. Up for discussion. If religious people don’t like discussion, bad luck.
I think atheist is raising a valid point. Skids has been quite polite in his comments on the overall but I’ve had people on this forum and others which I sometimes frequent whose idea of a “discussion” is to call anyone who has faith a “retard” or to compare them with people with a lobotomy.
While I don’t really care what their points of view are, when people come out with stuff like that, it kills the desire to talk or be in the same area as that person.
Most of the religions people I know don’t mind talking about and questioning aspects of their faith but it should be understood that it’s something close to their hearts which influences almost aspects of their lives. Even if an atheist had a noble intention of liberating the religious person from what he thinks is ignorance, insulting him or what he holds dear is not the way to go about it. Apart from being incompatible with decent social values, it just won’t work.
This lack of civility is not a problem with agnostics/atheists alone. It’s a problem with many believers too. I get pretty much the same response from some fundamentalist Christians when I present an Islamic viewpoint to them. But then when I see people (atheists/agnostics) who call these fundamentalists ignorant and behave *exactly* like them, I tend to not take them seriously. The kind of people who get a kick from putting others down. This is also the reason why I don’t really watch comparative religion debates.
But I digress, 63 comments is not that long for a thread on this site but I think it’s enough.
Thanks for the comments everyone.
Hey N, you say you don’t like commenting, and see no value in it, yet you do. Care to enlighten this hell bound atheist why?
Oh, I’m not totally against it. I’m sorry if I gave that appearance.
I just think that some subjects are too subtle to be discussed by people using a comment board when their backgrounds and experiences are too different.
You probably have a good idea of how many times you’ve posted the usual arguments (celestial coffee pot etc.) and received statements based on faith and personal experiences. I don’t think people benefit from those kind of exchanges. That’s why I don’t really respond to Shaze or Boris on this site.
But the point which atheist raised in his post above is a more general thing and I think we can both relate to it. ie. The need for civility in a discussion.
N: “The need for civility in a discussion.”
Agreed. As voltaire said, I don’t agree with what you say, but I will die so that you can…..
I’m ok with you saying things are too subtle, but please explain with your most subtle method how a 50 year old betrothing a 6 year old, then having sex with her when she’s 9 is not a predatory act. If you believe that god gave the all clear, then say so.
It looks like a predatory act when viewed in our cultural context and it’s commonly quoted. I believe that it wasn’t so when viewed in the context of the time. The topic is discussed in detail here if you’re interested.
It’s similar to the ages of consent throughout the world these days. 18 is like a hard line in the US (from what I know) but that’s not the case in other parts of the world. It ranges from 9 to 21 according to this map.
So, the bottom line is that Muslims don’t view it a predatory act of a paedophile but rather as a normal wedding which was appropriate at that time.
N: “a normal wedding which was appropriate at that time.”
That isn’t what I’m asking. You are not of that time. I am not of that time. But the guy is supposed to be perfect or at least the best example to us. And he most assuredly isn’t perfect for this time.
P.S. why is same-sex marriage nihilistic? they didn’t choose there sexuality. It’s well known that it’s the effect of hormones on the fetus.
So he did betrove her at 6 and marry her at 9.
This is sad:
“Narrated ‘Aishah, may God be pleased with her: The Messenger of God May the Peace and Blessings of God be upon him said (to me): “You have been shown to me twice in (my) dreams. A man was carrying you in a silken cloth and said to me, ‘This is your wife.’ I uncovered it; and behold, it was you. I said to myself, ‘If this dream is from God, He will cause it to come true.’” (Saheeh Bukhari, Volume 7, Book 62, Number 15)”
This is the sad excuse? So the prophet had dreams about a child, and why wouldn’t he say this? If that’s what he wanted? After all, he claimed divine right and his followers accept his word.
This is brilliant:
“Their values DO NOT come straight out of the Bible-in theory or in practice-regardless of what they may claim. That Christians today try to take credit for the so-called “Freedom”, “Human Rights”, “Democracy” and “Women’s Rights” in Europe and America is nothing short of a joke. It may impress uneducated people in so-called Third World countries, but anyone who has studied history knows that these things came about in spite of the Church, not because of it. The way in which many Christians uncritically mix non-Christian values with (allegedly) Biblical values has always fascinated me. One interesting example of this is how nationalism and patriotism are supported amongst the majority of Evangelical Protestant (and even other) Christians in the United States. In America, good Christians are flag wavers. Few, if any, of these fiercely patriotic minds ever seem to realize that narrow-minded patriotism is, at its core, both selfish and non-universal. That patriotism and Christianity go hand-in-hand in the minds of many people is just an example of how we can be blindly sucked into “moral relativism” without even realizing it.”
Really? I missed the history lesson where the Catholic or any christian church tried to advance human thinking at the expense of their hegmony. . They locked up Galileo for example when he didn’t agree with them. The US was based on a separation of church and state. The churches didn’t advance anything. Sadly that is diminishing. Interestingly good Muslims are flag wavers too.
And again: ” Puberty is a biological sign which shows that a women is capable of bearing children. Can anyone logically deny this?”
No, I don’t deny it. Buy we aren’t living in the Savanah being hunted by lions anymore. We can afford to let a child develop psychologically too now. We don’t have to force them into sex anymore, lest they not have issue.
“This was a Europe that had abandoned (or at least modified) its religious morality for a new set of humanist values where people used their own opinions to determine what was right and wrong.”
I sincerely hope so, the enlightenment was a few centuries ago, I hope we’ve moved on.
“Based on the culture at that time, no one saw anything wrong with it. On the contrary, they were all happy about it.”
No shit, it was a patriachal society.
“None of the Muslim sources report that anyone from the society at that time criticized this marriage due to ‘Aishah’s young age.”
No shit, he was the guy they’d tied their saddle bags to. They wouldn’t admit they’d backed the wrong horse.
“Society’s ideas of love, family and marriage are much different in the so-called “modern” and “civilized” West of today than they were in Biblical or Qur’anic times.”
No shit, that’s why we are saying he isn’t a good role model for people of today.
“They are taken aback by the thought of marriage at the age of puberty, even though it’s an age old custom. ”
Because humans rarely lived past 30 years, now we do. We can afford the time to let children become adults.
I read it, sadly ( or not) it didn’t give a reason why the prophet’s marriange to a child makes sense today. If you argue that morals are unchangeable. Then you support slavery, because that was normal at the time of the prophet……
One more thing. I just looked at the side bar. I am almost the last respondant on each thread. I really need to get a life. My wife has given up on me and gone to bed!
To gasmonso: Thanks for your site.
To Mohamed and N: Thanks for your indulgence, Sorry I’m not pliable enough to see your point. I did try, but I guess it’s my atheist, secular view of the world. I’m not christian, therefore I don’t consider arguments to a higher power. However I abhore abuse no matter how many religious scholars say it’s ok for a 50 year old to have sex with a child. That’s why your prophet would be first in hell if there was one.
Ad alias: Thanks for your indulgence.
Ave atque vale.
Vivete in pace.
Labor meus hic est fatus.
Skids mortuus est.
By the way N, I’m really disappointed that when you had your big chance to justify your paedophilic prophet you resorted to dogma. That is, because “learned” believers say it’s so, therefore those who believe can’t argue. For such are reasonable person, why don’t you reason? It’s really easy, let go of the belief and reason…..
Oh sorry, I’m dead. Vayan con dios.
Thank you for your indulgence Skids. Good night.
No shit, that’s why we are saying he isn’t a good role model for people of today.
I don’t really understand your reasoning. Although the message is for all time, the Prophet himself was someone who lived 1400 odd years ago. His roles in society, the way he went about his daily life would definitely have been influenced by the society he was in. He was a person of his time. eg. The religion extols over and over again the importance of staying clean. The prophetic companions however used to wipe their hands under their feet when they were done eating. That was simply the way it was done back then. Anyone who did that now wouldn’t be considered clean but the message still stands. This is analogous.
But anyway, this is getting old. Good night again. :)
Killing infidels and having sex with a 9 year old would just be the way things were done back then?
0_o
Where does one draw the line between true message and sign of the times? Ever think that making up divine stories was also a sign of the times?
If he were alive today he’d be in a mental house, prison, or dead. Either that or leading a religious sect in the south, sleeping in a big pile of money.
gasmonso,
Do you have any concern for the non-Muslim women in the UNited States who are beaten/killed by their husbands/boyfriends? LIke the saying goes charity begins at home.
DO you think that Iraqi and Afghani women, children and men don’t mind having their bodies crush and burned by bombs just because they come from democratic countries?
There are Muslim activists in the West, as well as in Muslim countries that are trying to improve things. But the mainstream media hardly pays attention to them. They ask why aren’t Muslims doing anything about these issues, but at the same time ignore those who are trying to change things. It’s as if the mainstream media really doesn’t want things to improve and just want to have a group of people to mock and criticize.
Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain.
Democrats and Republicans are the only path to social and political change. Hard work and devotion; you must see that the ideals and morals our fathers set forth for us, are applicable today. Change does not happen out of free will or random events; it is all choice.
I choose not to see the change surrounding us. I choose to ignore the way it affects others’ lives and my own. And I am genuinly surprised by everything that happens to me. I am much more important than a large majority of the world, because I choose to beleive in a world I do not quite understand.
But I *know* that we are doomed.
Shaze wrote:
“…you must see that the ideals and morals our fathers set forth for us, are applicable today…”
The founding fathers of America slept with underage girls and owned slaves. How is that different from what you accuse the prophet of Islam of doing?
They did? Well I dunno about whole sleeping with underage girls part, seems you might be pulling that one out of your ass. (You know, what with history being COMPLETELY accurate n’ everything)
And it’s different because people don’t still worship old presidents; and even if they did, I bet they’d be smart enough to know not to vote for Bush.
Shaze,
Thomas Jefferson slept with an underage slave girl. You can find people who admire him.
Muslims don’t worship the prophet of Islam, that is considered idolatory.
@RandallJones
“The founding fathers of America slept with underage girls”
“Thomas Jefferson slept with an underage slave girl”
the progression of your claim smells of fabrication. got any documented source? how underage was she? since when is admiring anything like worshiping? the way muslims flip out when any says anything negative about “the prophet” sure seems like worship to me…
Just like Muslims debate about Muhammed and Aishia, Americans debate about Thomas Jefferson and Sally Hemmings.
boris,
what about when Americans flipped out when a member of the the music band the Dixie Chicks said she was ashamed of President George W. Bush?
Skids,
Without the Quran, the prophet of Islam is still an important historical figure. He united the tribes of Arabia and after his death, the MUslims created an empire that achieved many important scientific, literary, and artistic works. In the past, historians used to say that the Muslims just preserved Ancient Greek texts. BUt they did much more than that; they corrected and added on many new discoveries.
But anyway as other have mentioned child brides was not an oddity in his time and centuries after. In modern times child brides do not just exist in the Muslim world. THey exist in many regions of the world were poverty often makes a family give/sell their daughter for a man to marry.
And the Quran does not say it is acceptable to marry child bride. Are you aware that Jewish and CHristian scriptures say it is okay to have sex with 3 year olds? See http://www.answering-christianity.com/age3.htm
@RandallJones
yes, that was shameful alright. but people didn’t take to the streets, nothing got torched, and no one was hurt. big difference.
oh and for the record, i have the exact same low opinion of xtianity and judaism that i have of islam. except for the minor detail that islam is a huge threat to western societies across the world and that is not acceptable…
Boris,
So do you think that Athiest didn’t do at the same era, may be athiest had better morale at this time…
Second we don’t worship our prophet, don’t mix Cristinity with Islam, we didn’t like the cartoon, because we don’t like any body to image him, so the people could be ending worshippin him….
And when it comes to the Thomas Jefferson and Sally Hemmings, it’s not documents, it’s typical asthiest answers.
@mohamed
“So do you think that Athiest didn’t do at the same era, may be athiest had better morale at this time…
Second we don’t worship our prophet, don’t mix Cristinity with Islam, we didn’t like the cartoon, because we don’t like any body to image him, so the people could be ending worshippin him….
And when it comes to the Thomas Jefferson and Sally Hemmings, it’s not documents, it’s typical asthiest answers.”
WTF does that even mean?
Yeah,
I have a hard time understanding Mohammeds responses some times…
@Mohammed/RandallJones:
A while back in this post someone was told he couldn’t possibly understand Islam without speaking the language or being a gullible fuck (ie. beleiving in it).
So, in the same context; what makes you think you know or understand Western society any better than we understand yours?
/ Where the hell is Gas
Shaze,
I am a proud citizen of the United States of America. I am nonreligious, but unlike many athiests on this website, I do not believe that most wars are caused by religion. Most wars are fought over natural resources, land and power.
Some people think I am anti-American because I criticize U.S. foreign policy. But I criticize my country because I want the best for my country without it hurting others. Just like if someone in my family was doing something wrong, I would try to correct it; I would not be in denial of the problem, pretending it was not happening.
It is said that during the Middle Ages the Church had stunted the growth of the sciences because it wanted to control everything. A hundred years from now it may be said that the oil corporations stunted the development of scientific discoveries related to the use of alternate energy sources because they wanted to control everything. And all you “rational, scientific” thinking athiests did was sit around mocking Muslims.
Alright let me butt in and put my two cents in.
My father is a fundamental Muslim. I’m a Deist. Our beliefs differ and such however, for the past 21 + years, my father has been emphasising over and over again how Islam has indeed “revolutionised” women.
All this talk about Islam being violent to women is nothing more than :
1. Lack of education in the Quran and Hadith
2. The inability to differentiate between cultural norms and religious wants.
@RandallJones:
Enjoying your intelligent posts is but one of the ways I spend my days; I feel it important that voices and opinion be heard, in opposition of religion.
That being said, PLENTY of wars have been STARTED by RELIGION. I’d offer some links, but unlike you I see the relativity in all things; not fine lines seperating them.
Shaze,
What about the wars the United States is involved in right now: Iraq and Afghanistan. Are those due to religion?
@RandallJones
the answer is no. religion is merely a tool smart people use to incite people to do their bidding. the name of the game is resources. prevention is a derivative of resources, influence. if denmark chose to either expel or eliminate their muslim population, it would be justified. just an example.
“All this talk about Islam being violent to women is nothing more than :
1. Lack of education in the Quran and Hadith
2. The inability to differentiate between cultural norms and religious wants.”
Does the Quran allow men to punish their women if they do not obey?
Did your prophet allow his wifes to leave the home?
boris wrote:
if denmark chose to either expel or eliminate their muslim population, it would be justified. just an example.
Really? Why should all Muslim immigrants be punished for the actions of a few?
its not just the few. don’t you see whats happening all over europe? muslim populations are rapidly increasing (because of high natality rates and immigration, NOT conversions), and then they want more and more influence. even if its only the “few extremists” (something i don’t buy at all) demanding sharia laws and what not, the moderates are there to give them a base. western countries must make a choice now, its still reversible. but if things keep going the way they are now, UK will be a n islamic republic before long…
Rantish
On some level I agree with Boris, even if I find some of his views overly aggressive, about the cultural hijacking which is constantly happening.
The base cultures are being changed by minority groups with demands of respect to their culture and then to other changes in existing governmental structures.
The Europe has been conditioned to be so polite and apologetic over the colonization and other acts or historical value that we tend to accommodate requests and behavioral patterns which are bordering illegal by our current laws. Instead of saying no, we change the laws and customs as we are so afraid of offending anyone.
I find it interesting on an intellectually when one group complains of being subject to cultural decimation at the hands of a majority group and many agree, many even outside the minority group.
But when the majority group shows interest in keeping its position by limiting the growing influence of immigrant group or other minority then the same people are also offended. I am not talking of eradicating the minorities but of maintaining cultural identity.
Seems like being part of a majority group is in itself an offense and wanting to keep the cultural situation relatively stable and enforce the culture of majority is even more offensive.
I personally am fond of cultural diversity but I cannot find much to applaud with cultural uniformity apart its dullness.
The Americanization is a sad example of cultural uniformity. I am not interested of hearing only American music nor eating hamburgers and watching only American movies. Nothing against Americans but I want to listen European industrial music, eat sushi, enjoy Bollywood movies and everything around the world.
But I have nothing against immigrants, I find the diversity refreshing but I also find it alarming that my culture must accommodate the beliefs and actions which conflict with out laws and customs.
I disagree with the laws of some countries but as I am not a citizen there I cannot change them but I want immigrants to follow our laws if they wish to move in.
Jagannath and boris,
As far as I know, all those who have committed honor killings have been arrested. Laws have not been changed in Europe to accomodate honor killings.
I hardly think the bombing of Iraq and Afganistan that Some Europeans have joined the U.S. in doing can be considered “polite and apologetic.”
Even though colonialism has ended, Western governmets still interfere with the governments in the MIddle East, Asia, South Africa, and Asia. Western democracies preach human rights and democracy, yet they engage in regime change and support brutal dictaorships who do their budding in giving the West a large share of the coutries’ natural resources.
Ulrik Says:
April 5th, 2007 at 3:46 am
“All this talk about Islam being violent to women is nothing more than :
1. Lack of education in the Quran and Hadith
2. The inability to differentiate between cultural norms and religious wants.â€
Does the Quran allow men to punish their women if they do not obey?
Did your prophet allow his wifes to leave the home?
Daraba = a lot of different meanings. To some it means “Leave your wife she does not obey”.
And I don’t have a prophet so I wouldn’t know now would I?
All these back and forth comments are leaving out one big thing…THE GIRLS WHO WERE KILLED. It happens in america too. If you move to another country, you must accept their ways. I am sick of muslims moving into freedom loving places and then trying to restrict the freedoms of others. Go back to your shitty country if you want to MURDER YOUR OWN DAUGHTER for being a non-virgin or in one case here, just because your daughter disobeyed. STABBING AND STABBING THEM, and in this one case where someone the MURDER was audio recorded, the father was repeating “die daughter die !!” over and over again while stabbing his 15 or 16 year old daughter to death while you hear her screaming and crying. Her brother or brothers helped hold her down. THIS IS VIOLENT MURDER OF YOUR OWN FAMILY MEMBER and I DO NOT WANT ANY MORE MURDEROUS BASTARDS AROUND HERE.