um, what?

Though you directed this question to atheists, I hope you don’t mind if I answer these questions.

1- What’s The Soul?

Nothing, in reality. It’s an ill-defined term that religious people use to separate themselves from the rest of nature. It makes them feel better because it makes them ’special’.

2- Who Create All things from Nothing?

As a deist, I’d say ‘God’, but certainly not the God of the Qur’an or Bible. The ultimate creator doesn’t need to be described in a human book. thoughtful, honest atheists will admit that they don’t know the answer to that question. The difference is that they are okay with that. They don’t need a myth to falsely answer the question for them. They can live with that uncertainty.

3- How the Fingerprints never ever get match even with twins?

Environment. It is obvious that cells must use information from their environment to decide when to split and even what kind of cell to become. Every cell in an organism has the same genetic material, yet different cells (heart cells, skin cells, etc.) form as a result of where they are in the body. I’m sure the differing environment causes the uniqueness of figure prints between twins.

4 - what’s Magic, Black magic, spell?

A fiction created by superstitious people to explain events that they don’t understand.

1- What’s The Soul?
2- Who Create All things from Nothing?
3- How the Fingerprints never ever get match even with twins?
4 - what’s Magic, Black magic, spell?

As mentioned in comment #9, the Shah cracked down on secular and democratic opposition groups.

THe UNited States was supporting Saddam when he was mistreating the Kurds.

As for push for power in Iraq, Iran is not the only one. People are blind to the involvemnet of Israel in Iraq. If the Western governemtns and the media were honest reporting on both countries actions in Iraq, we might see a decrease in violence. BUt unfortunatley this will not happen. THis is probably the main reason that the violence will continue if the U.S. leaves. In addition, even if the U.S. leaves, it will still interefere with Iraq because the main reason it went there was to control the oil production.
THere needs to be a grass roots movemnet to put pressure on the mainstream media and government to be honest about the U.S.intentions in Iraq.

You say we should focus on the religious situation in Iran, how about also focusing on human rights activists in Iran, or does this website just want to present Iran has a hopeless basketcase of religious fundamentalism. sidfaiwu, has already explained the situation and the early comments have already expressed outrage at the situation, so what’s next?

Why not discuss the activists living in Iran who are trying to change things, but then that is not easy to do since the mainstream media gives most, if not all, of its attention to the extremists. THe West says that they want to see Iran develop human rights, so why don’t they give recognition to human rights ativists? IT was done once in 2003, when Shirin Ebadi, an Iranian human rights activists was awarded the Nobel Peace Prize. But how often did she appear in American media. Did you read the link I posted previously “‘Leave Us Alone,’ Iranian Reformers Say” at http://www.progressive.org/node/4253

You say we know plenty about the stupid things that America does, but despite living in a democracy and having freedom of speech we have not been able to do much about having a say concerning its foreign policy.

I would say that, historically, leaving countries alone leads to peace…after a destructive process. Take Somalia. International forces leaving would lead to even more chaos than there is now. Peace may come, but at the cost of many, many heads, and perhaps the death of a culture or two. Iran, as another example, had the Shah, who was backed by us and certainly wasn’t popular. I’ll give you that. However, the current Islamic regime degrades women’s rights, suppresses dissenters, and in general isn’t nice. It’s relatively peaceful (besides Kurdish activity in the north and the occasional protest gone awry). As a relativist, one could say that it’s just my Western bias speaking. That’s true. However, I continue to hold this position because I believe that it allows for the position that people can be free to change their minds. If they disagree, then that’s fine with me. However, Iran’s government doesn’t allow for dissent. That’s the problem.

As pertaining to the US and regime building: yes, they’re bad. Politicians have a tendency to look at the moment instead of the long run. Russia was no more concerned for what they were doing than we were during the Cold War, and so they supported Marxist governments that don’t do so well these days (see Eastern Europe and it’s attempt to re-enter the world market). Now we seek to find a way to fix the damage of those days. That, and the disintegration of European-led imperialism has led to the fragmentation of nations into arbitrary states (Iraq, for instance) that can’t sort out their own situations.

I think where you and I differ is not on the goal, but the emphasis. You seem to me to focus on the freedom of the state. We interfere with governments and screw things up. This is true. I, however, focus on the individual level. I ask what these governments are doing and am willing to reject governments that are in violation of what I consider as basic rights. Here we get to Iran. If we leave them alone, they will likely, in my thought, continue suppression of freedom. However, I agree that going in to ‘improve’ the country would be a mess. It should also be noted that I was, and still am, against the initial invasion of Iraq. There were good reasons for going (treatment of Kurds being perhaps the biggest example), but those were not why we went, and sudden regime change just doesn’t work. However, we are there now, and the whole world is watching. The previously secular government is gone, replaced by angry Shiites asking for what they feel is rightfully theirs and frightened Sunnis attacking for fear of their lives. Meanwhile Iran is pushing for power in the region, and Iraq is the only other Shiite majority country, so they intend to move there. Sunni countries like Saudi Arabia and Syria aren’t stupid, and so support the Sunnis. Al Qaeda likely sees in the chaos a chance to gain support for greater anti-American support. I believe that if we leave the place will erupt (that is, more than currently), millions instead of thousands will likely die, and anti-Americanism will really pick up, since we will have abandoned the people. I said previously that Iraqis tend to get angry mostly when we leave. If we leave them now, and Shiites start trying, with Iran’s support, to either forcibly remove or annihilate the Sunnis, everyone will be much more pissed. This is, by and large, my position.

As for allowing other countries to do what they choose, I generally agree with that. But I still side with the individual. If the government in question doesn’t allow individuals basic freedoms (as Iran seemingly doesn’t), I think something must be done, which was the question in my original post. Call it bias if you will, but I’d rather be biased towards individual freedom than be a relativist who ultimately has little ground to stand against blatant injustice (I don’t think you are a total relativist, but I think your position is risky). If we stand nowhere, we must fall.

I intended to stop posting in this thread because I figured the arguments would get nowhere. However, I strive for the ability to have civil conversation between both sides, and I think there may be hope here yet. Also, I still think this should focus on a religious situation in Iran and not on stupid things America does. We know plenty enough about that.

I didn’t say abandon the world, I say treat them as your equals. THe UNited States one minute supports a dictator, then as soon as the dictator doesn’t do what it wants, the UNtied States bombs it. Of course the UNited States doesn’t give that as the reason for the bombing, instead it says it is looking for WMDS or wants to spread human rights and democracy.

World history tells me that U.S. involvement in MIddle East has only made things worse. Thankfully there are AMericans that have learned from history. There is a grass roots movement to try to stop any attempts of military intervention by the UNited States in Iran. HOw can they improve human rights if they are always under attack, always being threatened, having sanctions placed on them for activities that many other countries are doing. Collective punishment of a people does not help improve human rights. We shouldn’t do it because we wouldn’t like it if it was done to our country.

I’ve had enough of this one.

WHile the United States has been in Iraq, billions of dollars have been wasted. U.S. and Iraqi officials don’t know where it has gone. It has been reported several times that the Americans that go to work on reconstruction projects in Iraq, have little or no experience in the field.

You would rather talk about religion. Well it has been made clear that that religion should be kept out of government. I agree with that. The necessity of separation of CHurch and state has been made clear over and over again on this website and in the media.NOw what about the issue of the UNited States interfereing with governments in the developing world? Look at all the deaths and destruction it has caused. Shouldn’t that be addressed? What about the United States collaboration with Muslim extremists? Why are the Afghanis paying the price of the UNited States actions? People complain about Saudia Arabia’s human rights violations, but for some reason they don’t say anything about the fact that the UNited States accepts trillions of dollars of investment money from the Saudis. DO you see how you can not separate religion and foreign policy?

Saddam Hussein was helped into power by the UNited States and he was supported by the U.S. when he was committing his worst atrocities. THen when he stopped doing the United States’ bidding that was the time to bomb the country. Saddam was secular and women were highly educated and had more rights than many of the surrounding countries. Now look at the miserable situation of women. Even before Saddam rose to power, women were very liberated in Iraq.

You say you only want to discuss religion. Religion and life are intermingled with each other they can not be separated. I think what you really want to do is point out other peoples faults but not your own. You claim you want to help the Iranins, I don’t think you do. You just want to sanctimoniously preach to them, without doing your part to solve the problem: gettting the UNited States to stop intervening in other countries, allow the people to make their own mistakes and solve their own problems.