In a stunning reversal of character, God has changed his mind! At least according to the Catholic Church. Before this historic alteration of centuries of theology, unbaptized babies were still tainted with Original Sin and where thus unworthy to be in the presence of God. God, not being heartless enough to send those innocent dead babies to Hell, made a special place just for them: Limbo!
Not anymore! In a document released by the Catholic News Service and approved by the Pope himself, there is no limbo anymore. According to the document, “People find it increasingly difficult to accept that God is just and merciful if he excludes infants, who have no personal sins, from eternal happiness, whether they are Christian or non-Christian.” Apparently, the actions of God are subject to public approval.
A change this large hasn’t occurred since the sun suddenly stopped circling the earth and the earth started spinning instead. As usual, God was unavailable for comment.
–Sidfaiwu
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April 22nd, 2007 at 9:48 am
Is it any wonder that these “scholars” are the laughing stock of 3/4 of the world?
As the Catechism of the Catholic Church explained: “Born with a fallen human nature and tainted by original sin, children also have need of the new birth in baptism to be freed from the power of darkness and brought into the realm of the freedom of the children of God, to which all men are called.”
April 22nd, 2007 at 11:38 am
This may somehow support the church’s stand on abortion. In the old system aborted fetuses must have gone to limbo. In the new system, I assume they go to heaven.
I’m no theologian, but it seems to me under the new system, an aborted fetus goes to heaven 100% of the time. Those that are not aborted go with somewhat lower probability.
If the church’s goal is to make heaven as crowded as possible, it seems that they would want to have more abortions under this scheme, not fewer. As I stated above, I’m no theologian. But I think this shows something, I’m just not smart enough to know what.
April 22nd, 2007 at 12:13 pm
This is exactly the same train of thought that parents go through when their kids start asking tough questions about Santa Claus too early. Rather than acknowlege the rediculousness of the story, they start changing the story to keep it going. “How can Santa be at all the malls at once?” “Well, er, um, those are Santa’s *helpers*”.
It’s like the people in charge of religions don’t care at all about whether the story is right, only that the story keep on going.
April 22nd, 2007 at 12:56 pm
Ok, so here’s what I think happened:
In the beginning, god was too busy fucking with the humans to notice a shit-load of morally neutral/clean souls getting rejected from heaven. This went on for quite some time, all the while souls started to pile up on the front lawn in front of the pearly gates. After some time, the “lost souls”, who were really bored by then, got organized.
They realized they could still influence the living as ghosts or something; and therefore, use us to launch their protest against god. Initially people were skeptical of the neutralized souls, often mistaking them for Jehovah’s witnesses and wild sex dreams. But over time, they got enough religious people to question god’s whole “game plan”, and launch a complaint to the pope. The new pope and god were sitting around eating penuche and playing shuffleboard one day, when the pope finally dropped the bomb.
Not wanting to piss god off like the last pope, he delicately brought up the subject. “So uhhh God, you know those pissed off souls on your front lawn?” he says. “Now we know it’s more of a Buddhist thing, but a bunch of us were thinkin’, maybe a few of them deserve a second chance at heaven?”. God, who can hold a grudge longer than my mother, went off about original sin and the whole killin Jesus thing. “But God” the pope argued, “what about the baby souls?”. “Surely they’re cute enough deserve a second chance?”. God weighed their cuteness over all the other trapped souls in his “pegatorial” mistake, while setting up the rocks for another game; and in the end, he decided to let them in to heaven.
The newly freed baby souls were so happy, that they left without thanking the other souls who had helped it all go down. Who, co-incidentally, defaulted to hell when god finally made up his mind. This extra surplus shipment of souls made Satan very happy, who threw an orgy in honor of his neutral guests. Musical acts for the orgy included Jimi Hendrix, the Doors and pretty much everyone who played music in the 60’s and 70’s.
The moral of the story? When building a universe, remember to take away your creation’s conscious right to vote against you.
April 22nd, 2007 at 12:59 pm
pegatorial = pergatorial
Damn you spell check!
April 22nd, 2007 at 1:48 pm
Sounds like heaven is one step closer to granting admission to virtuous nonbelievers. That’s my kind of slippery slope.
I believe it’s spelled “purgatorial”.
April 23rd, 2007 at 12:04 am
Damn that contradictory god. He does move in mysterious ways. Whatever happend to consistent superstions?
April 23rd, 2007 at 5:13 am
ohhh, that’s a good one. I’m going to have to shove that in the collective face of my religious friends sometime very soon.
“If god is always right, how can he change his mind. Is it wrong now, or was it always wrong and right now?”
April 23rd, 2007 at 7:18 am
O_o
It would have been good yesterday to know that, some old crone went after me with ‘You going to purgatory, adulterous sinner, blablabla, or even Hell!’ on and on and on…
Since she was catholic, maybe she’d have some thoughts about the purgatory program being canceled.
April 23rd, 2007 at 9:37 am
man will this upset some catholics. I don’t agree with the post here tho. Purgatory was never in the Bible so they back to the status quo.
April 23rd, 2007 at 9:40 pm
[...] have been a number of articles (Reuters), and some excellent blog postingss regarding Pope Benedict’s declaration that the Catholic concept of limbo is no [...]
April 23rd, 2007 at 9:41 pm
I don’t think it gets rid of purgatory, only ‘limbo’ which was especially for dead babies. Like rugrats in heaven. The article seems to say that this used to be a place where they would be happy but not with god. Purgatory is where sinners go who haven’t been able to have their sins absolved in the world, but will eventually go to heaven after the sins are atoned for, and is not a happy place.
Its also interesting how they say that they don’t really know one way or another and seem to do the most hopeful thing regardless of accuracy.
Catholics also believe that the bible and ‘tradition’ have equal weight, not that the bible is the only source of truth. At least, that’s what the Council of Trent said. It could have changed. Speaking of Trent, back to my paper…
April 23rd, 2007 at 9:58 pm
Gotta love theologians, having discussion and issuing proclamations about the existence of things that someone dreamt up. Like discussing whether dragons accept the existence of fairies……..
April 23rd, 2007 at 10:54 pm
we all come to the age of accountability when differs person to person. What ever the age may be it’s quite clear that all of you are past yours in your rejection of God and His Son, Jesus. All children who die before this age go immediately to heaven. Do you know that the only unforgiveable sin is blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. This means continued rejection of God despite the promptings of the Holy Spirit to convict us of our sin. Eventually, God hardens hearts as he did to Pharaoh. Pegatory is a made up fundraiser as is infant baptism. Baptism is for those who have accepted Christ as their Lord and Savior. It is an outward expression of being born-again. Jesus told Nicodemus that a man must be born again of the Spirit. Incidently, Galations emplains to us that the spirit we have is the same that Jesus had. He gave it to us. Incredible. God Bless You All.
April 23rd, 2007 at 11:04 pm
“Do you know that the only unforgiveable sin is blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.”
So if when hitler was sitting in his bunker, right before he killed himself, and found jesus and asked for forgivness, he would be in heaven right now? And a little hindu boy in india is rotting in hell because he didnt believe in the right god? What kind of an egotistical son or a bitch would that make god?
April 24th, 2007 at 5:48 am
Yo Irishthunder, God judges the heart(remember the heart/mind thing).He would not judge the little boy based on his ignorance (not knowing the truth). It is when u have heard the truth and reject like time and time again because your heart is calloused(remember that one), that you would go to hell. God is just …more just than you could ever be on your holiest day. He knows who deserves what. He is compassionate more than you could dream of being. His scales are just…you have been weighed in the balance and have come up short Irishthunder.
God only knows if by now you have blasphemed the Holy Spirit. Time will tell
April 24th, 2007 at 7:46 am
janine:
A lot of people tend to talk about some kind of “infinite capacity for forgiveness” or “infinite compassion” of the Christian god… Yet if said god would punish even _one_ person with eternal suffering, it would make _me_ more forgiving and compassionate than that god, simply on account of being able to forgive _at all_. If you have an infinite amount of time - eternity - to change your mind and forgive someone, and still won’t do it, then that would make you infinitely _unforgiving_, and tormenting someone for eternity also shows a total lack of anything vaguely resembling that quality which is known to us humans as “compassion”.
Eternal damnation defies the most basic principle of retributive justice - that the punishment should fit the crime. Only an infinite crime could deserve infinite punishment. And only an infinitely evil being would mete out infinite punishment for a finite transgression.
April 24th, 2007 at 8:09 am
Dude, God knows the end from the beginning. And by the way he is the God all ALL creation, not just the christian God. He did not make christians only…he created if those that dont believe in Him…like you. Just to clear that up.
Like the laws you must know of in science…physical laws, there are Gods laws. He honours his word above his name. He said the ’soul that sins shall surely die’. Having said that, he will watch that word to perform. He has given us a blueprint (the word of God), we choose to accept or reject that word. Based on our attitude toward it we earn life or death. Hell and all that goes with it, is the resting place of those who choose not to accept it. Why would anyone that rejected God in life want to spend eternity with Him after death or whatever. So why would God save somebody (in death)from the consequences of the choices they made (in life) so as to make some atheists feel better about God. he is not moved by your opinions, you can call him infinitely evil, retributive whatever. It does not change who is is. He says that He is just. Which means all your reasoning will not change that. He is just. Each choice has a consequence, as a scientist you understand that somewhat.God only saves people while they are alive,once they are dead, HE Wont. Because he wont go against the “word” he put in place.
April 24th, 2007 at 9:18 am
If God made me an atheist by giving me the capacity for logical reasoning, who are you to question His decision?
If God made me an agnostic by giving me the sense to realize that without evidence, faith is nothing more than superstition, what makes you think a mere human could interfere with His master plan?
Perhaps the Christians are the ones who don’t take Him seriously.
April 24th, 2007 at 9:56 am
Lovey, God does not create atheists. listen to yourself…thats crazy. Atheists dont believe in God…why would God make atheists. And he dont make agnostics either. You guys develop based on what u have been taught in your homes, in school (especially school).
“If God made me an agnostic by giving me the sense to realize that without evidence, faith is nothing more than superstition, what makes you think a mere human could interfere with His master plan?”
So what is it here? DId God make you or didn’t he. come on you are confusing me.Do you believe him to be creator or not. Are you atheist/agnostic or what?
The bible says ‘faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things unseen” The evidence you seek is found in faith.Therefore GOD would not create an agnostic based on what you just said.
God Bless you all. I have learned so much (psyche)Ciao for now!!
God would never
April 24th, 2007 at 12:19 pm
So, the script of divine comedy is about to change. Well, getting rid of the Purgatorio leaves still the Inferno and Paradiso for the believers.
It sounds somewhat annoying to those still in the Inferno as they no longer have the chance to take a dip in the Purgatorio and hopefully get into Paradiso.
Sucks to be eternally damned without the purifying flames of purgatory to cleanse your sins away.
Seriously, the base concept is sound, it removes lots of anguish from the believers in regards of unbaptized babies.
Anguish which was utterly callous and uncalled for to start with. So your baby died, well he will go to hell without passing the Go square and collecting salvation. That is not much of a comfort to people who just lost their baby.
The thing what I wonder if that could be a sort of step from the ages old dogmatic three of a kind thinking and true advances could be also happen now?
April 24th, 2007 at 2:29 pm
Never think this sort of change by the church is a good idea from their own viewpoint, once you say babies are not to blame because they have never had the opportunity to embrace the true faith, then one can make the same argument about Muslims or Buddhists etc. Once a bit of sense creeps in, the whole nonsense starts to unravel.
April 24th, 2007 at 4:10 pm
Janine, first you say He created everyone, including nonbelievers, then you say He created neither atheists nor agnostics. I think you’re confused. Here’s a possibility. He creates everyone neutral. We aren’t Christians or Muslims or atheists by default, but rather each of those possibilities is the result of a different course of events throughout our life. Christians can develop in a fashion similar to how agnostics develop. The main difference is that most Christian parents impose their personal beliefs upon their children forcefully because they think it means the difference between heaven and hell. Agnostics can sit back and observe different faiths objectively, without automatically assuming that someone with beliefs different from their own is wrong (and therefore destined for hell).
“Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things unseen”.
There was a time when the Bible was interpreted as saying that the sun revolves around the Earth, and that’s what people believed. They didn’t need solid evidence because there was a book claiming to have the answer, and they had faith in the book. Those people were violently opposed to the enlightened few who suggested that the Earth revolves around the sun. But it does. When you have evidence that proves one thing, you can’t prove that thing is wrong by hoping it’s wrong.
April 24th, 2007 at 10:15 pm
janine:
People like Pilomotor, and us here at religiousfreaks must be stopped! Quickly go tell your pastors, parents and friends that we need the guidance and understanding that only the good Lord can bring.
Tell them we’ll be here all night. Corrupting faith, warranting doubt and blissfully unaware that we’re gonna be sorry in the end. That we’ll all be judged before too long, and then we’ll find out why you’re right and we’re wrong!
But you know what janine? I really like music, and so my plan is to be really nice my whole life. Then, just before I die, I’ll tell Jesus “Up Yours!”, and book it down to hell. I figure, hey, after the first few thousand years of pain, it’s bound to blend into the background right? Then you’re free to enjoy all the slutty, abusing crazy fucks that made life so much fun right? Not to mention all the GOOD musicians who brought us all this joy we’re havin’ here on earth?
Wow, that’d be awesome…. I could also put this contempt I have for religous people to good use. You know, in that whole war against God thing Lucifers’ gonna do. Maybe I could be one of the demons he sends up to earth that make women horny all the time.
:)
April 25th, 2007 at 6:45 am
Pilomotor, God did create everyone. He does not make Christians,AGNOSTIC, MUSLIMS, ATHEISTS. We become that based on our upbringing. He created human beings with a free will.
We as believers do not imposing our will on our children. We teach our children as the bible says that we should teach your children in the way they should go and when they are older,they shall not depart from it. If your parents were atheist, you were greatly influenced by them.Same with Christians. When my children are grown, they can choose whoever they will to believe in, I cant force them to but I can pray for them. They have experienced God in our lives and seen him move so much on our behalfs. My children encourage me in God from time to time. i pray for them everyday and entrust them to Him that when they are older and are free to make their own choice, that they too will choose Him.
Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things unseenâ€.
Thats what the bible says about faith amongst other things. I have lived by this, I believe it. you choose to believe it or not. This faith is faith in God, not in an object, a person, your pastor, science, religion. Its faith in God, hoping in Him.It is not a futile exercise to trust God. He has never failed me to this day. Never!
Shaze, you are funny…crazy but funny. Do you hope to find much of that activity you described in hell? If you get there email or sms us on how it is down there.
April 25th, 2007 at 1:21 pm
And I say I’m a green elephant, not all your reasoning will change that. I AM a green elephant.
wait, so every single thing you’ve asked god has come true? Either you have very little to pray for or are insanely optimistic.
“Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things unseenâ€.
There was a time when the Bible was interpreted as saying that the sun revolves around the Earth, and that’s what people believed. They didn’t need solid evidence because there was a book claiming to have the answer, and they had faith in the book.
Answer this one please. I’d love to know how to pick what is “right and just” out from what is obviously proven to be crap.
Also, faith is the exact opposite of evidence. Evidence can be checked, verified and reproduced (or falsefied). Faith on the other hand is non of that. Faith is believing the absurd, against all prove and evidence believing to be true, that which is not.
how can you equate faith with evidence? Something you hope for isn’t anywhere near the thruth. It might be, by sheer chance, that that which you hope for comes true, but I’m still waiting foor that sack of gold coins to land on my balcony.
also, an interesting problem just occured to me. I’m an atheist, just in case you hadn’t noticed.
If babies and hindu and taoists and bushmen all go to heaven because they haven’t had the opportunity to embrace “the true faith” Then why shouldn’t I go to heaven? After all, if God made me the way I am, he knows that I need more pursuasion to come over the Christianity. I simply haven’t been properly exposed to it, it is, after all, the one and only thruth.
Ok, so the wording isn’t as good as it sounded when the little voices spoke to me, but i hope you get the idea.
April 25th, 2007 at 3:32 pm
Janine, keep up the good aploogetics kid. I wish I had the time. Having a battle of wits with people who are clearly unarmed is tough. God is Good!!
attention atheists one and all and other evelotuion believers
Do you realize that the big bang theory has been proven mathmatically impossible as in could not have happened.
Dna shows that we all came from one mother dubbed “eve”
Transmution does not happen otherwise we’d have shaze-sheep (just a little humor forgive me shaze)
Evolution requires a beginning, there wasn’t one, it never happened. Why do you think top scientists and scholors are all scrambling to find an intelligent design theory? Evolutionists need to get on the ball and say aliens created us like an art farm. You might even get to name your own theory if it is ridiculous enough.
pilomotor logical reasoning points to a creator you don’t make any sense with your pseudo-intelligence.
I love you all
April 25th, 2007 at 3:42 pm
janine:
“Do you hope to find much of that activity you described in hell?”
Well come on, with all the sinful progression humans are making here on earth, you’d think they’d have to keep up right? I mean how else could almighty Satan come up with creative punishments right? I mean, before abortion was invented, what could Satan know about a medical procedure? Not much more than you do, I’d assume.
So either they got PPV down in hell, or theyz gonna have to learn, like your kids will one day. Tell you what janine, if I ever make to your make-beleive hell, I’ll spend the rest of my death trying to corrupt your family, and their families. (Kind of like what I’m doing here on Earth, but time won’t be an issue :) )
Oh, and by “Indoctrinating” your children with your opinions, you are in effect “imposing” them. And while you may be doing your best to see your children raised right. It is well documented and proven that most children turn out to be quite different than their parents. So whatever you tell them now, is gonna affect their choices once they find out the truth from someone who is unbiased of opinion.
You can lie to yourself and ignore the things you KNOW are true. But when you lie to prople you love, it’s gonna come back to bite you in the ass; mark my words.
April 25th, 2007 at 3:56 pm
jesuslovesyou:
I forgive you, you primitive man with an ape-brain.
“Evolution requires a beginning”
No it doesn’t; in fact it is so far from “requiring” a beggining, it makes you look dumb. Evolution ONLY offers explanation to the gradual evolution of life on earth, it doesn’t need, nor does it talk about a beggining. But don’t worry, once we get the new reactor going @ Cern, we’ll find a good enough answer to eliminate any beleif in “a” creator.
“Transmution does not happen” - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transmutation
It’s a theory you fool! Not some delicious apple pie that I may or may not have eaten for lunch. Second, why the hell are you so concerned with it? Does the fact that it might be true make you uncomfortable? If it’s true, will it make your beleif in god look dumb to others? Are you and janine feeling dumb or ridiculed on this forum? Is that why all your responses sound like you’re being attacked?
“Do you realize that the big bang theory has been proven mathmatically impossible as in could not have happened.”
Ooo Math Evidence! Well let’s just rule out that silly theory right now; cause no one has EVER used numbers to misrepresent fact or anything. How bout you make me a beleiver and show me you can’t evolve beyond poor grammer and no facts, to back up your assinine statements.
April 25th, 2007 at 5:04 pm
So what you’re saying is that since the Catholics have their theology all screwed up, there must be no God.
Right, right, right, Got it. Yer so smart. This site is really great. Just helping all the dumb sheep to finally get over their religious idiocy. At least you’re not wasting your time. You’re really doing a great work. Keep it up!
April 25th, 2007 at 5:35 pm
shaze, i think perhaps you are totally clueless. How can evolution not require a beginning. What did everything initially evolove from you know from goo to you by way of the zoo!!
“It’s a theory you fool!” shaze I think you meant theory for fools. An apple and an orange will never merge except in juice perhaps or fruit jello. Did you know that them genetic make up of frogs and amphibians is even more complex than humans. Did we evolve to something less complex? It takes more faith to believe that two particles of dust collided at exactly the right distance from the sun and contained the exact mix of 79%oxygen 20% and 1% other gas to sustain life. Then from this miracle (oops bad diction you don’t believe in miracles) life was formed and 200+ million years later here we are? A tornado went through a trailer park and then a junkyard and spit out a 747. Michaelangelo didn’t paint the Sistine chapel (sp) a donkey cart with paint on it exploded iside and the famous work of art was the result. Crazy huh? John3:16
April 25th, 2007 at 6:28 pm
jesuslovesyou
“How can evolution not require a beginning.”
How can God? Oh, He’s eternal? How does that work?
Evolution is a process, not a tangible thing. If there are things themselves that can affect each other in a certain way, there is the possibility for evolution. It isn’t controlled by an on and off switch. So, if evolution requires things to happen, then is evolution eternal? Not if things aren’t. But then again, I can’t put a date on the start of things, so I can’t tell you that one.
“Did you know that them genetic make up of frogs and amphibians is even more complex than humans. Did we evolve to something less complex?”
Oh no, I feel so inferior. Why the hell shouldn’t we be less complex, if it works?
“It takes more faith to believe…etc”
Not really. #1, it’s a theory. 100% certainty in every case of something ever is something that a scientist smiles wistfully about every so often, but don’t count on it.
We know we are here, so there must be a reason, yes? Is it God? Maybe, but I haven’t seen a thing that points to Him. Is it the random chance of particles organizing in extremely unlikely ways, creating other extremely unlikely scenarios that would eventually lead to life? Maybe. I know this much: it can happen. The possibility is there, and more importantly, we can empirically demonstrate it. Just because it’s unlikely doesn’t mean it can’t happen. The universe is a big, old place. Is it less likely than God? Couldn’t say. What I can say is that I have yet to see God empirically demonstrated, unless you try to bring in some creative explanation. But I don’t like to get creative when it comes to understanding the way things actually are.
April 25th, 2007 at 6:30 pm
“Do you realize that the big bang theory has been proven mathmatically impossible as in could not have happened.”
And did you know Kent that 64% of all statistics are made up (Simpsons reference). You are just attacking a general idea with an authoritative sound bite. Show us what you mean by Big Bang and how it’s mathematically disproven and I’ll show you a poor straw-man type argument that is full of hot air.
“Dna shows that we all came from one mother dubbed “eveâ€.” No it doesn’t, that’s just a lie.
“Transmution does not happen otherwise we’d have shaze-sheep (just a little humor forgive me shaze).”
I’m sure it wasn’t transmutation that created the Shaze sheep, but that’s a story for Shaze to recount. Evolution from one species does happen. The term species isn’t a “kind” or concrete thing that you believe. It’s just a label we give to a grouping of organisms that can successfully reproduce. You only have to look at a wolf, then dogs to know that they are not the same species, but were once. I know that was done by man, but you get the picture.
“Evolution requires a beginning, there wasn’t one, it never happened.” Evolution just requires something that can mutate, plenty of time and a ruthless environment to cull the less “fitter” mutations. It doesn’t even require life.
“Why do you think top scientists and scholors are all scrambling to find an intelligent design theory?”
They aren’t, that’s another lie. The top scientists scorn ID. It’s creationism dressed as science.
“Evolutionists need to get on the ball and say aliens created us like an art farm. You might even get to name your own theory if it is ridiculous enough.”
That’s a lie, but even if one did, it still would be less fanciful than your god.
“pilomotor logical reasoning points to a creator you don’t make any sense with your pseudo-intelligence.”
You don’t make sense with your silly arguments.
April 25th, 2007 at 7:28 pm
jesuslovesyou:
I beggining to think you’re just some stupid internet troll? Is that what yer doing here? Just wasting our time?
How about seeing as others here are giving you honest ANSWERS that actually relate to the questions you ask, you try and do the same for us. Start at the top of this thread, cite your sources, references and give us a honest, legitimate answer for once.
“Did we evolve to something less complex?”
After talking to you, I’m starting to beleive that we may very have devolved into silly twits with the intelligence and grammer of 4 year-olds.
April 25th, 2007 at 8:14 pm
jesuslovesyou:
I hear jesus gives great head.
Some might call this blasphemy, but who the hell am I
to question the abilities of the son of (your) god?
April 26th, 2007 at 1:52 am
Oh, and by “Indoctrinating†your children with your opinions, you are in effect “imposing†them. And while you may be doing your best to see your children raised right. It is well documented and proven that most children turn out to be quite different than their parents. So whatever you tell them now, is gonna affect their choices once they find out the truth from someone who is unbiased of opinion.
That may be true. Children do tend to want to rebel against their parent. And mine may not be any different. I try my best. But for the calling of the Lord. His will will be done in the lives of my children no matter who tries to corrupt. My children are taught of the Lord and great is their peace. I confess this. I believe this. I leave my kids and their futures in the very capable hands of God. They know the truth even now because as i have said they have seen God work in our lives even from this young age. I dont fear the future for them even if i am not around to see them grow up, they are in good hands with my Lord
April 26th, 2007 at 2:05 am
Alcari
You are not just…He is. The same way He is love. It speaks of his character. He epitomises justice. God is not a man…you cant compare his divinity with your humanness.
If babies and hindu and taoists and bushmen all go to heaven because they haven’t had the opportunity to embrace “the true faith†Then why shouldn’t I go to heaven? After all, if God made me the way I am, he knows that I need more pursuasion to come over the Christianity. I simply haven’t been properly exposed to it, it is, after all, the one and only thruth.
Babies go to heaven because even while they are born with sin,they have not actively sinned by rejecting Jesus and what He did on the cross.
Taoists, Bushman whoever else-i am inclined to believe that if these people never ever heard the gospel and were therefore never given the opportunity to respond and accept Jesus in their lives, i dont believe they would go to hell based purely on that (i could be wrong) But for those who have heard and have rejected no matter who they are, they have rejected Jesus so there is no room in the kingdom of heaven for them. FOr people that have never heard the word of God and never had the chance to accept Christ, I believe that the just God, who is able to judge man’s heart (figuratively ‘heart’) would not judge their ignorance but the state of the hearts and the lives they lived. But the gospel is travelling and very few people have not heard. God knows all things.
Ok, so the wording isn’t as good as it sounded when the little voices spoke to me, but i hope you get the idea.
I am inclined to believe that there are ‘little voices’ that speak to you. A legion of them.
Be blessed
April 26th, 2007 at 2:12 am
Hikaricore…i can hear Jesus say of your last statement
‘Forgive Him Father, for he knows not what he is saying/doing?”
April 26th, 2007 at 4:25 am
“It is well documented and proven that most children turn out to be quite different than their parents” Evidence please? Many children rebel for a while or seem superficially different, but most believers in a faith follow their parents faith.
“i am inclined to believe that if these people never ever heard the gospel and were therefore never given the opportunity to respond and accept Jesus in their lives, i dont believe they would go to hell based purely on that (i could be wrong)”
That is funny. You are desperately trying to convince yourself that your faith is just and fair even though it says they’ll go to hell. Lovely.
April 26th, 2007 at 8:55 am
Hey dearest Brian…religion is not fair. I am not fair. But God is fair…whether religion portrays that or not. Nothing desperate here, i know that i know that GOd is just and compassionate. he knows more than i would ever know who deserves hell and who doesnt
Enjoy ur weekend.
April 26th, 2007 at 8:57 am
“It is well documented and proven that most children turn out to be quite different than their parents†Evidence please?”
What you asking me for evidence for. Thats your quote hunny.
April 26th, 2007 at 9:38 am
If God is all knowing, omniscient, eternal, then why do we bother praying? Wouldn’t He know what we’re going to pray about already?
April 26th, 2007 at 12:51 pm
odd, you clearly have the ability to read, yet, choose not to do so…and here I thought this site was on the smart-corner of the internet.
Beeeep…wrong question. Frogs do have more chromosomes, but so do potatoes. Besides, once you’ve got the basics of DNA, it’s just a matter of making more of it. just like there is basically no difference between reading one page, or a whole book. Even so, evolution does not ’strive’ for complexity, it ‘aims’ for survivability. If a species with one less gene is better adapted to it’s environment, then so be it.
You’re right there. It’s an infinitesimally small chance, so you need a really really big number of tries. Now if only we knew of something really big…hmmm…something the size of the universe….hmmm…
I believe I did no such thing, merely calling myself a green elephant, to point out the ridicule of the quoted statement. Also, who are you to call me unjust and God Just? How can you even claim to know anything of god? Because some book told you?
You have no way to call me unjust, I’m just words on website for you, no more then god is words on paper. Hey, i’m more like God then I thought.
Even if god exists, do you know you are taking ‘thruth’out of a book that has been translated and edited so many times, it’s completely unknown which segements are original and which are complete crap. (personally, I say the original is crap to, so there’s no difference)
April 26th, 2007 at 12:57 pm
oh, for readability, use:
<Blockquote> and </Blockquote>
(i hope that display’s correctly on the forum, took me long enough to figure out how to get is displayed)
April 26th, 2007 at 3:06 pm
Last hypothetical question (I wonder if I’ll get an answer to this one): If we died tomorrow, and it turns out there was no hell or eternal judgement (all the man-made bible stuff was wrong); just a creator, no sin or punishment.
And then he gave you your life to live over again, while keeping your knowledge of the afterlife; what would you do differently?
// I don’t wanna hear why this would NEVER happen, just please, play along and tell me, what if you’re wrong?
April 26th, 2007 at 4:38 pm
“What you asking me for evidence for. Thats your quote hunny.” No, it was your quote from #36. And learn to spell
;-) honey
April 26th, 2007 at 6:17 pm
She was quoting me, and I don’t need links on this one, because I was a kid at one point.
All kids hate their parents; until they grow up and realize what love really is. No kid really “understands” what you’re trying to teach them, until they learn it for themselves. I bet they beleive what you beleive, and parrot what you say, when they ar young. But eventually they will have to make their own mistakes, and go their own path, and I garuntee you, it’s not going to be the one you set out for them.
April 26th, 2007 at 8:12 pm
Shaze good hypo. I’d do the same as if they found the bones of Jesus, I’d live the life of a heathen as I did before I answered the call and conviction of the Holy Spirit.
Some hardcore facts for you Shaze
1 Jesus was here and was crucified
2 Jesus did die on the cross for the forgiveness of our sins
3 Jesus did rise again and was seen by over 500 witnesses (check Josephus a secular historian of the time)
4 Jesus ascended into heaven there are no bones
5 Pontias Pilates wife was a christian. Jesus healed their child
6 Jesus loves you
7 Hicaricore is obviously a simpleton
I didn’t always believe. I was lost until I was almost 31. I reasoned that the Bible was a series of stories made up when people would sit by fires and tell tales. I went to church growing up but was clueless. I knew we stood up when they read from the gospels but that was it. It was a place of religion not relationship. I lived as Solomon trying all (most anyway} the pleasures this world has to offer. I found it to be empty and “chasing after the wind” We are all programmed by God to seek him. He never forces his way into our heart but he is always seeking us first. He gave us the same Holy Spirit that Christ had to lead us to him. I know you seekers know what I’m talking about. Even a bushman can know there is a god by what he sees around him. I challenge you all to give Jesus a chance through this power of the Holy Spirit. You can’t deny Jesus was a real person. Give him a chance to prove he’s God and He will.
Pray Jesus, I do believe you were here. I know I am a sinner. Make yourself real to me, show me your face Lord, help me with my disbelief. I challenge you friends.
God Bless You in the strong and powerful name of Jesus!!
April 26th, 2007 at 8:25 pm
dearest Asta
Yes God does know what we need. He knows what we’ll pray for before we do. However he wants us to depend on Him to love Him. He wants us to have fellowship with him.
In the old testament the Jewish people had to make sacrifices of animals or food to attone for their sins. You see God is pure and holy and cannot look at us with sin covering us. That’s why he send Jesus, the lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world. He can now look at and fellowship with believers because we are covered by the blood of Jesus.
April 26th, 2007 at 8:29 pm
ATTENTION ALL NON-BELIEVERS:
Do you believe in moral absolute, meaning is there right and wrong?
If yes what do you base right or wrong on?
Did you know that Archeology has never revealed any evidence to refute the bible. On the contrary it always supports it.
April 26th, 2007 at 8:38 pm
Alcari,
Have you heard of the Dead Sea Scrolls?
Back to the Holy Spirit again. As an enemy of God you have the Holy Spirit with you everyone does. However, once you accept Jesus in your heart the spirit is upon you, He indwells you. It’s like the bat-phone to heaven, direct line. The Spirit is the one who convicts you, leads you to God, and reveals his truth to you in many ways ,including the reading of the scriptures. Then as a believer you have the opportunity to be filled with the Holy Spirit which is really cool.
I love you my not yet brother
April 26th, 2007 at 8:43 pm
“Do you believe in moral absolute, meaning is there right and wrong? If yes what do you base right or wrong on?”
This old chestnut, when will god botherers stop pretending their religion gives morality? We are moral because if we weren’t we would’ve wiped ourselves out of existence a long time before we invented religion. If too many early humans went around stealing and killing, etc, they would’ve been the most successful and had lots of stealing and killing babies who would’ve stole and killed us out of existence. For the good of the species it proved more adaptive to have a majority of the species generally nice and kind. So what we call good is good for survival of our genes, and what we call bad is bad for our genes’ survival. No need for a book that tells you it’s ok to commit infanticide and genocide like the bible and other amoral acts.
“Did you know that Archeology has never revealed any evidence to refute the bible. On the contrary it always supports it.” Ok, give us the evidence of this amazing support.
April 26th, 2007 at 9:15 pm
Brian that archeology thing was especially for you. You show me. I’m not the one trying to disprove what all the evidence shows, God is real.
Are drugs good for your genes, Brian. What about std’s from prostitutes? How about fast food.
Thou shalt not kill ring a bell. Doesn’t sound like a big promoter of genocide to me. Are you pro-life or pro-choice mr infanticide. If Christianity doesn’t set guidelines for morality what does? You?
April 26th, 2007 at 9:34 pm
You see, if you talk to it, it just shouts back louder and more rudely. People such as jesuslovesyou practice the worst kind of morality. He(?) pretty much said that if he needs God looking over his shoulder for him to be good. He can’t even imagine why we would be moral without God. He’s already convinced himself that all atheists are drug using, promiscuous hedonist (and probably worse) and nothing we say will change his mind.
The sad part is, he actually believes he is doing God’s will by insulting atheists.
April 26th, 2007 at 9:39 pm
jesuslovesyou, brian already answered your question about morals. Simply put if its bad for the progress of mankind don’t do it. So since human first evolved we were already being conditioned not to do such things. And about the archeology, theres no evidence at ALL that supports the crackpot idea that the bible is true. But if you want to put forth that theory then you need EVIDENCE, which is why it hasnt been done before.
P.S. just out of curiosity, do you beleive that the earth is only 6000 years old?
April 26th, 2007 at 10:11 pm
“Brian that archeology thing was especially for you. You show me. I’m not the one trying to disprove what all the evidence shows, God is real.”
That’s silly. You made a statement it’s up to you to provide evidence. If I say there’s a green man in my living room, you won’t accept that as an accurate example of reality without some proof and you won’t feel the need to provide evidence that there isn’t. Where’s your proof?
“Are drugs good for your genes, Brian. What about std’s from prostitutes? How about fast food.”
Talk about conflation of unrelated issues. I’ll separate them.
“Are drugs good for your genes?”
Well, I’ll assume you’re talking about illicit drugs and not medicinal drugs here. Drugs have chemical effects similar to naturally occuring chemicals in the body. So taking cocaine for example mimics the effect of a hormone called seratonine (correct me if I’m mistaken) which is partly responsible for feelling good. So, taking cocaine tricks the body into feeling good (massive oversimplification but it gives the idea). Anyway, in short it hijacks a chemical pathway. Is that good for your genes? Hard to say, if it stops you procreating, then its bad, otherwise it may have no effect.
“What about std from prostitutes?”
What does that have to do with drugs? It’s patently obvious that having unsafe sex is unsafe. We have condoms and education. You can teach our youth that sex is natural and healthy but that they should always use a condom. If they have any doubts about a potential partner, they have the right to say no, as it’s their body. No problem for morality there.
“How about fast food?”
What about the fat evangelists on American TV like Pat Robertson or whatever his name. By your standards he’d most likely be moral yet he most probably doesn’t mind glutony. It’s an educational thing and a parental responsibility thing. We need to be educated about what eat, and parents, schools and society have a role to play in encouraging healthy eating. The bible offers no help here.
“Thou shalt not kill ring a bell. Doesn’t sound like a big promoter of genocide to me. Are you pro-life or pro-choice mr infanticide. If Christianity doesn’t set guidelines for morality what does? You?”
Christianity (or more to the point Judaism) wasn’t the first religion or philosophy to spout that line. It also says in Deuteronomy that you should kill unbelievers. And Jesus said that if a child disobeys a parent, the parent should kill the child. It’s in Mathew and Mark I believe. I’m pro-human. I don’t believe our actions should increase the suffering of other humans wherever possible. I believe our actions should increase the actions of other humans whereever possible. After all, it feels good to help another human and feels bad to hurt another human. Why? Because we evolved that way, it was good for our genes survival. I can think for myself and have choice. But what makes me feel good and feel bad is in my genes.
April 26th, 2007 at 10:13 pm
Edit: I mean “I believe our actions should increase the happiness of other humans whereever possible” Bloody work gets in the way and I hurry to much.
April 26th, 2007 at 10:14 pm
thunder
round about 6000 yes. The Bible is an accurate histoical document and accepted as such. It is the recorded history of the Jewish people and the nation of Israel, God’s chosen people. Some parts are improvable by secular standards ie Jonah and the great fish. However, the majority is proven accurate and true. Wake up non-believers you’re being snowballed.
did you read any of post 48?
April 26th, 2007 at 10:20 pm
But do you have any evidence? you can preach your crap as much as you want but if you aren’t able to back it with evidence and facts its completely futile.
April 26th, 2007 at 10:22 pm
“The Bible is an accurate histoical document and accepted as such” Accepted by who? Not by the majority of historians. It’s only accepted as an accurate historical document by a small number of fundamentalist christians.
” It is the recorded history of the Jewish people and the nation of Israel, God’s chosen people.”
That must piss of the christians, not being god’s chosen people. After all, Jesus was a proud jew, and never wanted to start a new religion. It was Paul who create christianity.
” However, the majority is proven accurate and true.”
Again, show us this proof.
April 26th, 2007 at 10:23 pm
sid,
what’s up man. If atheists do chose to do drugs and are promisuous does that make them bad if there are no moral absolutes. It sounds to me that the Holy Spirit is at work in you right now my soon-to-be brother. You recognize sin and don’t even know it
April 26th, 2007 at 10:42 pm
come on y’all. are you that uneducated. the bible is accepted in public schools and universities as an accurate historical document.
Brian, do you really believe the stuff you write or are you completely blinded by hate. why are you so angry at God? “Paul created Christianity” get a grip. He spent three years basicly alone after his conversion on the road to damascus. then he went to the other believers. You and I both acknowledge Paul. Isn’t that proof that the bible is real. The gospel message (good news) was first for the jews and the the gentiles (everybody else). That’s how church on sunday started. Paul would always preach first to the jews on sat. the to the rest of the dogs on sunday. (alittle humor for the non-believers) Thus church on sunday for christians. The first believers were actually called “followers of the way” Contrary to what BRIAN says Jesus never said to kill children. In deuteronomy or leviticus it does command a father to take an uncontrollable son to the elders at the city gate and stone the boy. Wild stuff that old testament. Lot’s of smoting if you read the Old King James bible.
CHALLENGE NON-BELIEVERS Get an NIV or other modern translation and read the book of John. I dare you.
April 26th, 2007 at 10:46 pm
Back to you IRISHBLUNDER I mean thunder (haha)
Please refer to post 48 for proof of the Bible or to Brian and I discussing paul aka saul or tarsus. Paul by the was was a highly educated pharise or religious leader of the time. He was taught by gamaliel. Once again see works of secular historian josephus (sp)
April 26th, 2007 at 10:52 pm
Wow, very clever. Iv read 48 multiple times, funny thing is its just you making random ass statements WITHOUT evidence. I mean are we supposed to take your word that everything YOU think is true? sorry buddy, im gonna need a little more than that
April 26th, 2007 at 11:06 pm
“come on y’all. are you that uneducated. the bible is accepted in public schools and universities as an accurate historical document.”
You shouldn’t joke about that sort of thing. It’s far too terrifying to be funny.
April 26th, 2007 at 11:20 pm
okay irish 1 more then lights out for this old man 39. Do i really have to provide evidence that Jesus was here and was crucified. Read the Koran. It mentions jesus more than mohammed (13 times I believe.)
http://www.carm.org/evidence/Josephus_Jesus.htm
goodnight I’ll pray for you all.
pilomotor what’s terrifying is what’s going on in the schools now that they’ve taken God, prayer, and the ten commandments out. You need to see the great physician, you’ve got a heart condition.
April 26th, 2007 at 11:26 pm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_Sea_Scrolls
April 26th, 2007 at 11:26 pm
Just because there was a guy named jesus who was crucified doesn’t mean that the ENTIRE bible is true. Jesus was a common name and crucifixion was common way execution.
April 26th, 2007 at 11:29 pm
irish was rising from the dead commom too?
http://www.carm.org/evidence/Josephus_Jesus.htm
till tomorrow or later today as it may be. The bible tells us that today is the day of salvation.
April 27th, 2007 at 12:15 am
Hang on. First you claim “the bible is accepted in public schools and universities as an accurate historical document”, then you claim “they’ve taken God, prayer, and the ten commandments out” of schools. Am I the only one who sees a logical inconsistency preventing both of these statements from being true simultaneously?
April 27th, 2007 at 12:25 am
The great physician? How great can he be when literally everyone dies in his waiting room?
April 27th, 2007 at 12:42 am
“why are you so angry at God?” I don’t believe God exists, therefore I have no anger.
” You and I both acknowledge Paul. Isn’t that proof that the bible is real.” The Da Vinci Code acknowledges Jesus, guess that’s a history book too.
Paul argued for Gentiles to be baptised into the Jewish sect of Jesus. Jesus only saw himself as the Jewish Messiah. It was Paul who created christianity by allowing non Jews to enter into the followers and break it away from Judaism.
“Contrary to what BRIAN says Jesus never said to kill children”
Funny, in Mathew 15 it says: For God said,* “Honour your father and your mother,†and, “Whoever speaks evil of father or mother must surely die.â€
And he also said that whatever was written in the old testament still stood, so dismissing Deuteronomy is dissmissing Jesus.
April 27th, 2007 at 12:50 am
From the site about Josephus:
“At this time there was a wise man who was called Jesus. And his conduct was good, and he was known to be virtuous. And many people from among the Jews and the other nations became his disciples. Pilate condemned him to be crucified and to die. And those who had become his disciples did not abandon his discipleship. They reported that he had appeared to them after his crucifixion and that he was alive; accordingly, he was perhaps the Messiah concerning whom the prophets have recounted wonders.”
Hearsay recorded many decades after Jesus’ time. Not evidence of anything except for the Jesus myth. And it’s his disciples who are quoted. Of course they’d say that, they are trying to convert people. Pathetic attempt at evidence.
April 27th, 2007 at 2:53 am
1 checks out, however I must point out that there were as many jesuses in isreal as there are in mexico right now. 2-> well, you can interpret the reason as you see fit, it was because of causing publix uproar, but if you say “sins” then whatever.
3 -> uhhh…. secular? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josephus#Significance_to_scholarship
4 -> there are hundreds of deaths where people don’t leave bones, hell, there are almost no bones left from 2000 years ago, did they all go to heaven?
5 -> says one single, highly disputed source.
6&7 -> drop the filler.
Compile error in module: Religion
personal stories are nice, but useless, as for every “I found god” story here, there is an “I saw the light” story, so your nice argument hold zero weight.
Hey, just my little 4-year old nephew who want confirmation all the time.
Yes i have, though you seem to have left out your argument.
AHAHAHA, you mean the evidence showing how the great exodus was only a few thousand people? or the semi-evidence showing that there WAS a jesus? Or the fact that several people did exist as named in the bible? Those are hardly proof of a bearded man in the sky.
a few words then, that might ring a bell to you.
Hittites, Girgashites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites, jebisite, Jericho, Gomorra, amelekites, sisera, caanites.
Can’t find any of em? That’s because God ordered them wiped out. try reading Jos.12:24, for a discription of “God’s love” Thou shalt not kill, my ass.
Why yes, I do indeed, as does everyone else. everyone does to everyone else as they would want the other person to do to them. ie. You don’t steal because you don’t want to be robbed.
accepted as such ONLY by religious non-scientists…
some stuff in it “kind-a-looks-like-it’s-true” but
Either you’re not reading, have skipped over the replies or are a complete retard. It’s not the first one, and I’m starting to have serious doubts about the other two.
Then again, doing drugs does not make one evil.
April 27th, 2007 at 7:46 am
To Jesuslovesyou:
First off, don’t call me Dearest. The insincerity is offensive.
Secondly, you obviously don’t know the Bible as well as you think you do. Brian and Alcari have got the facts straight, and when I read that you believe the Bible to be a “historically accurate document” I burst out laughing.
Just like how I burst out laughing when I watched “The Ten Commandments” at Easter. I had an epiphany, if you will, when Moses saw the Burning Bush. It struck me as total nonsense that God, in all his Glory and Power, would appear to a mortal being as a burning bush. That’s just plain silly.
It’s also mythology. And once that thought occurred to me, everything became very clear. As pointed out in earlier posts, Paul invented the Christian Mythology, began changing the rules of the first followers of Christ…actually, they didn’t have that many RULES, but Paul saw the need to complicate things. I see Paul as the prototype for the modern evangelist, the eternal Opportunist.
What saddens me most about the Christianists is their blatant hypocrisy and the way they trivialize God. Fellowship with God? The idea is absurd and, in my opinion, blasphemous. There can be no fellowship between mortals and God. That’s pulling Him down to our level instead of us aspiring to be better humans and more God-like in our ways.
To quote Alcari, AAAAAAARRRGGHHH!!!!!
(Hey, does this fellowship concept involve meeting God over at O’Charley’s and having a round of beers? )
April 27th, 2007 at 10:29 am
Good Grief.
I take a break for 2 weeks and you guys strike the mother-lode of delusional pseudo-trolls!
I swear I’m actually somewhat jealous…. :)
(hey Gas, hope your doin’ ok!!!)
April 27th, 2007 at 1:53 pm
My eyes bleed.
April 27th, 2007 at 3:45 pm
http://www.reuters.com/article/environmentNews/idUSPAR75418020070427?&src=042707_1355_DOUBLEFEATURE_
Apparantly we “are” in charge of our own fate after all! Religious? Recycle? Join these hypocrits.
April 27th, 2007 at 6:13 pm
[...] was just speaking with the other ACM students today about this: the Pope has declared that there is no longer a purgatory. I guess now that the Church isn’t using it as a way to embezzle money out of people, [...]
May 14th, 2007 at 3:27 pm
First I’d like to start off by saying that this in no way declares that purgatory doesn’t exist, but rather the state of limbo does not exist. The two are not synonymous. Purgatory is actually a state that is between heaven and hell where those who do not enter Hell proper go to wait to get into heaven. It is much like the area described as the underworld in Greek Mythos and Roman Mythos. Limbo on the other hand is a state of being that the unborn souls would go in which contains pure happiness, but the absence of God.
This was widely believed because of an interpretation of the Bible. That interpretation was altered so that there no longer is a limbo, and that is what the Pope declared.
I’m not here to argue the existence of God, for I know that every point I could make, there would likely be a counter point, and it would become a little too tedious to keep going back and forth. I just wanted to clear up a little confusion over what the Pope said.
November 6th, 2008 at 1:35 am
Please do not believe that either the pope’s, the Catholic church’s, my own, or your inability to understand God has any bearing on His existence. Whether or not we can understand Him changes nothing about the Truth.
Here is a simple thought. There are no repentant souls in Hell, regardless of their beliefs during their physical life.
November 6th, 2008 at 10:19 am
“There are no repentant souls in Hell, regardless of their beliefs during their physical life.”
You’re “simple thought” makes no sense. You get and “A” for effort, but and “F” in competence. Boo on you.
Additionally, one would think that an infinite being could do something as simple as make sense. As it is, religion is so convoluted that no two groups can completely agree on what the same texts says. One might say “God is testing us,” but why would God test anyone if he supposedly knows the end from the beginning. Just one of many contradictions your supposedly “perfect being” displays.