I know I’ve been absent for quite some time and for that I apologize. But this news tip from Jeanine has delivered me from the depths of despair.
A cleric from the prestigious Egyptian university Al-Azhar has issued one of the most asinine fatwas that I have ever heard. First a little background on the matter. Islamic rule forbids Muslim men and women from being alone together. The assumption of course is that an illicit relationship must be occurring if a man and woman are alone whether at work or elsewhere.
To combat this injustice, Ezzat Attiya, head of the Al-Azhar’s Department of Hadith (teachings of the Prophet Muhammad) has decreed that if a man breastfeeds from a woman then a maternal bond is created, thus allowing the two to work together without raising suspicion of an illicit sexual relationship.
Now I’m not passing judgment on anyone, but having an adult male suckling from a woman sounds like an illicit sexual relationship to me or at least a kinky one :)
If you’re reading this one Mohamed I would love to hear you opinion on this one especially since you’re from Egypt. Hey, did you shoot some video on your vacation? I’d like to see it if that’s possible. Take care :)
No related posts.
Welcome back, gasmonso.
Since a man and a woman cannot be alone until she breastfeeds him, doesn’t that mean she has to breastfeed him in public?!?
I’m trying to think of something clever to say, but I’m just floored by the twisted logic.
sid, don’t say things like that. We don’t want to go there. Just, no, man.
Haha Sid, nice catch!
This is just too bizarre to consider. I think someone has been snorkeling the hookah a bit too much.
What the hell? They let their women work? Damn liberals.
Send all the Christies there and then nuke the place. Repeatedly.
Whoa… I make a post wondering about Gasmonso and Lo and Behold… he appears the day after!!! :) Nice to hear from you again, hope ya doing ok!
Since Angelina Jolie seems to be in a maternal mood lately, anyone think she might let me ‘bond’? :p
So…to prevent a religiously instilled phobia of male-female social contact based on a fear of supposedly uncontrollable sexual urges…they want to promote sexual activity. I’m surprised, and a bit disappointed that Egypt hasn’t imploded from the paradox.
Wow,
It’s the first time I hear about that, the only thing I know which it’s the case even in my family in Egypt, I had one of our neighbours, and he is the same age like me, and my mom fed him, therfore he is my borther and he is my sister brother, so he can’t even marry her, but what ever you said I truly never heard it befor.
I shot some videos, it will take me time to edit some of them, and I’m really into the NBA final, since I’m huge fan for Utah jazz( they look like they are going to lose :( ).
I had some picture in my blog is somebody want to take a look, and I will updated it on regular basis, I will put the link here and I hope that’s ok with Gasonmo, and if he didn’t like it, Gosnomo can delete it.
Here is the link, but please if you want to comment, I don’t welcome bad words or comment, since my family shares that blog with me http://egypt.terapad.com/
I’m planing to put on my blog, one of the paper my wife wrote for her school and mostly she decribe her experince in Egypt, and some of the contradictions that she saw in Egypt.
I really was upset with things going on Egypt, and I can see how the government turned this great country to that shape, it’s really sad, in two years people turned to the worst in horrible way.
Gosnmo,
I red your topic again, there is no way that would happen, it’s totally forbiden for any adult to get fed by a woman, where did you get this from?
Sorry I didn’t think about it first time, some people think it forbidden if the husband got this milk from his wife, the opinion is arguable though.
I wish if you tell the source of this one.
Bukhari, Book 008, Number 3425
I’m really sorry I don’t have access to this book.
It’s the first time I have ever heard about something like that, and it doesn’t even make sense.
I don’t get it, it has to be a man and he got breastfed from a woman, and then he tells everbody that he got breastfed from this woman, and then he will have the right to stay with her and that would be ok?
I don’t think Bukahri would say something like that.
I hope if you see this source on the internet, please let me know.
Strange, very strange. Oh well, sexual repression does the strangest things. It’s not natural I tell you ;-)
Can you fish out that Hadith from this please Jagannath? I couldn’t find it.
Sorry it was Sahih Muslim, not Sahih al-Bukhari. Got wrong information from a friend.
To be fair, the idiot who made this proclamation is–according to the article–getting censured. Not everyone over there is a rambling schitzo.
I love Ezzat Attiya. This man has one /brilliant/ sense for irony.
Actually he’s not only censored but fired from what I understand. The fatwa was also recalled
[...] you read that right. A cleric from the Egyptian university Al-Azhar has been fired over a controversial fatwa that allowed breastfeeding between unrelated adults in order to deal with Islamic social rules [...]
For those asking for the hadith:
Behold, Muhamed! Here is the prophet Muhammad himself commanding a women to breastfeed an adult man.
If you are still not convinced, Aisha used to ask her sisters to breastfeed men in order to meet them alone in her house. Let me know and I’ll dig it out for your convenience.
Funny, the rest of the chapter in the hadith repository I linked to clearly mentions that Aisha, Muhammad’s wife and one of the most authoritative figures in Islam, believed that it’s OK for a women to breastfeed an adult. No need to look it up, it’s right there below the first hadith I linked to.
It’s true that Um Salama (another wife of prophet Muhammad) didn’t submit to this point of view. But Aisha did that regularly to allow men to enter her house, and clearly said it was OK. So, if a Muslim questions adult breastfeeding, they question a good chuck of their belief system; the chunk that came from Aisha.
Muhamed, I request a rational explanation of this. Thank you.
If an ancient book written by a bunch of fanatics is the basis for your social system, you are just asking for this kind of stupidity.
@Native Arabic Speaker
Wow, gotta run ask my moslem friends about this one:D thanks for the Hadith
@Agony
I find this particular hadith to be the ultimate proof of the falsehood of Islam. It doesn’t require any scientific knowledge, just common sense. A Muslim has 3 choices when confronted with the issue of adult breastfeeding:
1. Deny the hadith altogether: However, the hadith comes from the sunnah, particularly Aisha and Saheeh Muslim. Denying these sources means questioning the authenticity of major sources of Islamic guidelines, including hijab.
2. Saying that breastfeeding is OK, and this is why Aisha used to do it. However, this defies common sense.
3. Saying that breastfeeding an adult is nonsense. However, this clearly contradicts with the teachings of Muhammad and Aisha.
@agony
Remember to mention that it’s not an isolated case as some sheiks claim. Aisha used to do it regularly by asking her sisters to breastfeed men. The page contains another hadith about the issue.
Here is the thing that you don’t get, when there is Haddith written, you have to make sure if it is strong or weak.
I’m not really sure and I can’t give an opinion, but most likely this a weak Hadith, which means not a lot of people seen or heard our prophet saying it.
Here is the same section in Arabic with the same number, and I didn’t find any thing in the marriage chapter for Abu Muslim talking about that, so if somebody know Arabic he will know that it’s not about that.
3425 – ÙˆÙŽØَدَّثَنÙÙŠ Ù…ÙØَمَّد٠بْن٠ØَاتÙÙ…ÙØŒ ÙˆÙŽØ¥ÙبْرَاهÙيم٠بْن٠دÙينَارÙØŒ قَالاَ Øَدَّثَنَا Øَجَّاجٌ، Ø ÙˆÙŽØَدَّثَنÙيه٠مÙØَمَّدÙØŒ بْن٠رَاÙÙع٠Øَدَّثَنَا عَبْد٠الرَّزَّاقÙØŒ جَمÙيعًا عَن٠ابْن٠جÙرَيْجÙØŒ قَالَ أَخْبَرَنÙÙŠ عَمْرÙÙˆ بْن٠يَØْيَى بْن٠عÙمَارَةَ، أَنَّه٠سَمÙعَ الْقَرَّاظَ، – وَكَانَ Ù…Ùنْ أَصْØَاب٠أَبÙÙŠ Ù‡Ùرَيْرَةَ – يَزْعÙم٠أَنَّه٠سَمÙعَ أَبَا Ù‡Ùرَيْرَةَ، ÙŠÙŽÙ‚Ùول٠قَالَ رَسÙول٠اللَّه٠صلى الله عليه وسلم —†مَنْ أَرَادَ أَهْلَهَا بÙسÙوء٠– ÙŠÙرÙيد٠الْمَدÙينَةَ – أَذَابَه٠اللَّه٠كَمَا ÙŠÙŽØ°Ùوب٠الْمÙلْØÙ ÙÙÙŠ الْمَاء٠—†â€.†قَالَ ابْن٠ØَاتÙÙ…Ù ÙÙÙŠ ØَدÙيث٠ابْن٠يÙØَنّÙسَ بَدَلَ قَوْلÙه٠بÙسÙوء٠شَرًّاâ€.â€
Here is the link if you know Arabic and you can find, I will like to see it in Arabic.
http://www.al-eman.com/Hadeeth/viewchp.asp?BID=1&CID=56
Let’s face it, religion has to go. Atheists of the world unite. The trouble is, we’re a bit like the Church of England – terribly nice, but not a political force. Unlike the Christian Fundamentalists, who are definitely not nice but very militant in their arguments. Maybe it’s time we Atheists got together and beat the s*** out of the deists? I mean this metaphoricaly ); We have never organised or found a way to promote our sensible opinions (although Richard Dawkins is coming close to standing as Saviour of Atheists) so I propose that we write a new Gospel. The Gospel of Dawkins. The man with intellect and commonsense, and who has said what all the rest of us have only dared to think. Power to you, Richard my man! Incidentally, entry to the RD church will only cost 1/10th of your income. My bank a/c number available on application. Hadith? Sunnah? Breastfeeding? Not on my street, mate.
Mike@Blackpool UK Says,
You are proving my point buddy, if the Athiest become a political power, only god know what are they going to do next, some of them are going to be extrem like you, and it’s going to be the same like any other religion.
To Native Arabic Speaker:
When you present those three possibilities, the problem I see is that a Muslim could accept choice number two and say that you are wrong in saying that it violates common sense, because you have the wrong belief system. What passes as common sense in one culture doesn’t necessarily translate across boundaries. What is inherently wrong with adult breastfeeding? Biologically speaking, isn’t human breastmilk better for us than the milk of cows? If so, what difference does it matter where it comes from exactly? Actually, wouldn’t it even be purer “straight from the source” so long as the person is of sound physiology? I don’t find cultural reasons much more convincing, either. “Ewww gross!” obviously isn’t sufficient. Perhaps you could say, “Well, people are supposed to stop at a certain age.” Why? I read a most interesting article a while back (can’t remember where, unfortunately) that said that the gene that allows adults to digest lactose was a relatively recent mutation in human history, and it in fact denoted a huge evolutionary advantage. So really, what’s being violated besides a cultural choice? I don’t see harm, perhaps besides an “unhealthy attachment” :)
To Mike at Blackpool:
I’m sorry but I don’t think it will be that simple. After all, they have God on their side (half joking, half not here).
Also, I have to say that Mohamed in the last post has an excellent point. Perhaps South Park said it better. Religion isn’t the problem. People are. People of all stripes do stupid things. This fight should be in the way people think, not in a worldview.
Snurp,
You got my point right regarding Mike at Blackpool.
True, but religion gives them another excuse to do stupid things, and it’s backed by the word of god.
It is not a weak hadith as it can be found in the work of Sahih Muslim, Sunan Abu Dawud and Ibn Majah and it has been examined by scholars like Ibn Taymiyya and Ibn Hazm.
I find it interesting that so few muslims know of it and when it is taken into open they try to deny it but quran states the following.
so denying it goes against the will of Allah.
It also gets some people very angry, I got a split lip as a reward of asking about it.
I must admit, I have no idea what books are being referenced here. Are you referring to sections of the Quaran/Koran as Christians do gospels of the New/Old Testament?
Also, as a side note, but potentially relevant.
Hate Religion? Here’s some music for you. Anti-Theistic Aggro-Tech.
http://www.ironhandonline.com – 2 full albums and 1 mini album free for download
http://www.vampirefreaks.com/ironhandonline – same band, much newer stuff, 3 fully mastered songs free for listening
“True, but religion gives them another excuse to do stupid things, and it’s backed by the word of god.”
It also gives people a reason to do many good things. Narrow, uncritical thinking is the problem here. People need to be able to think in terms of others. There are plenty of people, both religious and nonreligious, that can do this, but not enough obviously. Likewise there are utter morons in both religious and nonreligious groups. Fascists are sufficient here for a secular example. A denomination doesn’t make the difference so much as the way you shape your views of individuals and peoples. We should be fighting the “idiocy” part of religious idiocy first and foremost.
Muhamed wrote:
Dude, the hadith in Sahih Muslim (among the others). If you question its authenticity, then you have to question every other hadith. It is simple logic, why do you believe that Sahih Muslim was mistaken with this hadith, whereas you take other hadiths from it for granted? What’s your standard for accepting or rejecting a hadith?
You may say that you reject a hadith if it’s against logic. But from what I read in Islamic Sharia, the human brain is unable to find right and wrong on its own, and this is why it needs religion in the first place. So, how do you know that you are making the right choice by rejecting this hadith? What if there is a divine reason behind it?
I don’t know why the page you linked to does not contain this hadith, but it’s Sahih Muslim nonetheless. Perhaps the operators of that website didn’t want to list it. The following page lists the hadiths in Arabic, with links back to an official Saudi site:
http://www.nebras.net/arabic/truth/data/suckling_man.htm
Here is one hadith from the Saudi site:
http://hadith.al-islam.com/Display/Display.asp?hnum=2636&doc=1
Still in doubt that the hadith is in Sahih Muslim?
Here are all the hadiths in English:
http://www.nebras.net/truth/data/suckling_man.htm
All are declared authentic by various authoritative Muslim sholars.
The links take to an official religious Saudi site, with the original hadith in Arabic.
Brian,
People uses religion to show the world that God supporting them in doing such things, and it’s easy to twist words to serve your own interest.
Give you an example, Geroge Bush before the war in Iraq, he uses God to justify his war, do you think God happy about what he has done, do you believe that God came to him and told him ” I’m proud of you”, there is no way that happend, the people who believed him are stupid.
I can apply the same here in Usama Bin Laden, he uses alot fo Quran verse to serve his own interest, and the people who followed him is stupid.
I think Muslim shouldn’t do this kind of fighting, now a days you should be advanced in scince, economy and compete in this field, that’s kind of fighing Muslims should do, and that’s when Muslims was the best of the world, when thy take care of these things, but killing people doesn’t serve any body’s purpose.
Jagannath,
I’m not denying any thing, I just don’t have enough knowledge to confirm your source, I sereched for it by Arabic and that what I found, I didn’t find any thing mentioned about this topic.
I don’t trust English sites sometimes, and that’s why I try to find in Arabic.
The other thing if that’s what our prophet said, I have no problem with it, I’m not going to deny it, I don’t have something to be ashamed of, I just have to make sure that’s correct first.
Muhammad wrote:
Muslims often invoke the “Arabic” argument to escape discussions, claiming that no one can understand true Islam unless they read it in Arabic.
I linked to an official Saudi website confirming the hadith in Arabic. What’s your stand now?
Before someone says that this was an isolated case. This hadith confirms that Aisha used to do it, and that other wives of Muhammad rejected that:
http://hadith.al-islam.com/Display/Display.asp?Doc=1&Rec=3383
The hadith is in Arabic.
For the record, the source of the quote by GWB claiming that he was invading Iraq for God is questionable.
Not that I support Bush at all, but I feel that if you’re going to disagree with a man, one should do it with confirmed facts.
the hadith is questionable. it contradicts other prominant hadiths and verses from the Quran. this is probably one of the incidants where religious men go wild!
I’m beginning to wonder about all this. The contributors to this forum seem to be dividing up into different factions pretty much like the guys in the Bible or the Dead Sea Scrolls. Yes, I’ve read them (The Scrolls). No, I’m not impressed. There even seems to be some sort of Sectarianism emerging. For God’s sake, let’s not have an Atheist Northern Ireland! Maybe that’s the inevitable fate of all beliefs/non-beliefs – in the words of the Life Of Brian – SPLITTERS! Tell me, please, that we’re all on the same side!? ;)
Hello Mike
Both believers and non-believers frequent this site though it is heavy on the non-believers side. Many of us come here for debate. If we all agreed, it wouldn’t be interesting. The great thing about this site is that it usually stays civil.
Sorry Mike, but all atheists are most certainly not the same. Snurp != Shaze
Sorry Sidfaiwu, I didn’t mean to be un-civil! As a late-comer to the site, though, I seem to remember lots of good-natured banter and even quite a lot of really hard argument (Mohammed!?)but lately the good humour seems to have gone. I have enjoyed the site for months but please, I just want to have a voice. It really worries me when fellow Atheists start to bicker. I hope (no chance really) that in a perfect world Atheists could get together and finally put a stop to the theistic nonsense. But it now seems clear to me that any group of people will eventually splinter and come to different conclusions, even when the original conclusion was simply “There is no God”. Shame on us all. My apology stands.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carit%C3%A0_Romana
Breastfeeding a man, usually old often imprisoned, occurs in Roman legend and among Xian depictions of ‘cardinal acts of mercy.’ AKA Roman Charity. Check out Wikipedia URL.
Seems rather civilized to become a milk-brother rather than a blood-brother. No reasonable offer refused. There’s nothing new about MILF.
but lately the good humour seems to have gone
Oops! in that case….
Random thought on nomencleture – why should a-thiests be
identified by a word that only has meaning in opposition to something they believe is simply irrelevent?
Given that a-thiests so often subscribe to ideals of reason, which can often be summed up with the Axiom/Thesis/Hypothesis structure of formal logic, might it not often make more sense to identify ourselves as……
Thesists?
:-)
Hey Mike,
In no way was I trying to suggest that you have been uncivil. You comments have been a refreshing re-injection of humor and are greatly appreciated. Plus you prompted Recovered Catholic to come up with a great term, “Thesists”!
Written humor is not my strong point, unfortunately, so I’ll have to leave that up to folks like you and Recovered Catholic.
And now I go on to disagree with you on another post. I’ll see you there!
Thanks for taking the time to reply to me, guys. It’s good to communicate with people on a similar level, although some of the terms being used are a little academic for my humble education!
Mohammed:
The idea of George Bush using the Christian God to support his invasion of Iraq is as abhorrent to the people of the UK as it must be to you, so I agree entirely. And no, you’re right, nobody believed him. Or Tony Blair. I think that our respective leaders have done us (the electorates of USA and UK) a massive dis-service and lowered our (value? respect?)around the world. Trust me, though, our politicians are not our people! We’re quite an amiable bunch really…