Yesterday, the Associated Press carried this story that was destined to make it onto ReligiousFreaks. The Phoenix police were called to the scene of an exorcism in progress Saturday. When police arrived, they found a middle aged man, one Ronald Marquez, and his 19 year old daughter performing an exorcism on his granddaughter, three years of age. All three were covered in blood, the little girl was being choked by her grandfather while the mother was chanting “something that was religious in nature”. The ensuing struggle ultimately resulted in Ronald’s death. This isn’t the first time this sort of thing has happened. Clearly, bullshit cures should be left to the professionals.
Ronald was under the impression that his granddaughter was possessed by demons. This is the sort of problems that occur when people are encouraged to view all life experiences through a religious filter. It causes people to attribute supernatural causes to perfectly natural problems. Texas isn’t flooding because of new weather patters due to climate change, God is pissed at America. My 3-year-old granddaughter isn’t acting up because she has a lot of energy or is ill, she’s possessed by evil demons. Even in the best cases, it causes futile searches for supernatural solutions when a natural one may be easily available. In the worst cases, people die.
So what was wrong with Ronald? Did religion cause him to violently abuse his grandkid or was he already a violent person who happened to be religious?
–sidfaiwu
Related posts:
July 31st, 2007 at 8:14 pm
I will take the honor to comment on that.
I just have one question, what’s wrong with the people who got possesed what do you think about that? And what the science opinion, and how the science can deal with it.
By the way I’ve seen one of my friends had the same issue, and th doctors gave him 3 injections to put him to sleep, but there was no luck, even the doctor said it’s out of my hand. We then took him to sheikh and he did what he had to do and he wake him up, yet he didn’t take what he posses him out, because it would a lot of time to do it.
This story is real and I have seen by my own eyes, and God will be my witness if I lied.
July 31st, 2007 at 10:03 pm
Well, cause of death is still unknown according to the full article, but you kind of have to wonder if it was even a ‘normal’ exorcism when you read the part that says that the girl’s mother was naked and covered in blood and the door was blocked from within. I don’t believe in the practice working, but to my knowledge of the way it’s usually done, it doesn’t involve any of that. My guess is that these are people who need a psychiatrist very badly. I doubt they were members of a specific church.
July 31st, 2007 at 10:07 pm
My mistake about the ’cause of death is still unknown’ part,I misread that part. And my apologies for the double-post.
July 31st, 2007 at 10:15 pm
Mohamed , this is how science deals with the dilemma.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_method#Elements_of_scientific_method
July 31st, 2007 at 11:16 pm
Rickler,
I know these steps for what the steps science take to deal with any issue, I’m talking about the exorcism.
I just need to know what the science opinion about this particular issue.
August 1st, 2007 at 1:49 am
Science uses this instead of exorcism:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antipsychotic
It works much better seeing what you call “posession” is most often simply this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schizophrenia
Really, denying psychotic people effective treatment because of fear, ignorance, and superstition is just plain cruel.
August 1st, 2007 at 9:03 am
I’ve spent the past four years studying the composition and workings of the human mind, and I have to tell you that the religious raising of children aside, exorcism pisses me off more than just about anything else these idiots do.
“Really, denying psychotic people effective treatment because of fear, ignorance, and superstition is just plain cruel.”
My thoughts exactly. Not only does the practice of exorcism have absolutely no validity or reliability whatsoever, in preventing treatment it allows the problem to become much, much worse. I have seen so many cases where proper balancing of neurotransmitters through medication ‘makes the demons go away’ as long as the medicating is continuous. Most people have the sense to continue taking the meds, but sometimes you get a religious freak who sees the meds as just ‘keeping the demon at bay’ and not solving the problem. This is most prevalent with children, who are reliant on their parents for such decisions. Of course meds will not SOLVE a mental problem permanently. The brain is notoriously difficult to treat, as by and large once brain cells die off in mass quantities they do not recover in a significant manner, and meds will only artificially maintain healthy neurotransmitter levels in the absence of the brain’s ability to maintain them naturally.
Throw a priest into the mix, and on top of the removal of or refusal to begin medication, the afflicted’s condition can only worsen.
August 1st, 2007 at 10:15 am
Wait, is schizophrenia really diagnosed with three year olds? I would think (they would first assume) it was just more the kid being…a kid. They’re known to act weird, or so I’ve heard. I generally avoid them like the plague myself.
So here’s what I’m picturing. Officers hear screams as they enter the house. They go up to the closed bedroom door, wedge it open a bit and see: A nineteen-year-old girl naked, bloody, and waving her arms in the air chanting. A middle-aged man with his hands around a little girl’s neck, both of them yelling at the top of their lungs and covered in blood. They try to stun the man, but the first time “had no visible effect”. They stun him again, he goes down. They take him into custody, when suddenly he stops breathing and dies. I’d say the daughter wouldn’t be the one possessed here…
August 1st, 2007 at 11:01 pm
I was referring more to Mohamed’s friend than to the article. He mentioned someone “posessed” being treated with knock-em-out tranquilisers. He then said the doctor didn’t know what to do and that the patient was taken to a religious type who claimed he could do something about it but didn’t have time - thereby avoiding the sticky problem of having to prove he actually could do something.
You don’t treat psychosis with tranquilisers and a discharge. You treat it with things like Lithium and MAO-inhibitors for the acute episode and long-term antipsychotics as a follow up. It sounds like this doctor skipped a few classes at medical school, or was trained a long time ago.
As for the article, yes, it sounds like the grandfather could have used a few anti-psychotics himself!
August 1st, 2007 at 11:42 pm
the doctor gave him something to sleep, and the doctor said what he has taken would put horse to sleep, so I wonder what dieseas is that, and how the scinece can do any thing about it, and how science could diagnose what was going on, and what is still going on with people who has these issues.
By the way 3 people couldn’ control my friend and they were stronger than him in the actuall life.
I used not to believe in this stuff, but I’ve seen by my own eyes, and one of my friend red Quran for him to make him feel better, but actually it turned him crazy, and he was about to punch the guy so hard.
You can believe me or not, but it’s true story.
August 2nd, 2007 at 5:01 am
Hi Mohamed,
That is nothing unusual, if you watched “cops” you would know it’s normal with drugs like PCP or with psychosis.
It’s just that you had never seen a psych patient before, so it seems strange and unusual to you. Don’t worry about it, it’s not magic.
from wikipedia:
Hysterical strength is human strength exhibited superior to expectations, commonly in a hysterical state. It can be seen when muscles violently contract when a person is electrocuted. The most common anecdotal example is of mothers lifting cars to rescue their children. Hysterical strength is also observed in people who have taken mind-altering substances such as PCP. Hysterical strength can result in torn muscles and damaged joints.
August 2nd, 2007 at 5:45 am
Sorry, Mohamed, I should explain better what I meant above when I said I think you are being cruel to your friend.
There are many many different serious medical conditions that are well-known to cause the kind of symptoms you describe, and many of them are easily treatable with modern medicine. Your friend could have schizophrenia, or a brain tumor, or a serious endochrine imbalance. Left untreated, these conditions could threaten his life, or even, in the case of real psychosis, the lives of the people around him.
If your friend is confused enough to think that what happened is because of magic, then, as a good friend, you should know better and instead help him to investigate properly what was the real medical cause of this and whether some treatment is required.
But - because you want so very much to try and believe in your book - and only because of that - you encourage him with this nonsense.
You seem like a good and kind person, but doing that is selfish and it is cruel. That is not being a good friend. It is putting your own desire to try and see something magical in front of your friends very real medical needs.
I think at times like that it’s important to put aside what you wish you could see, and really think about what you can do to help insted.
I know that sounds forceful, but this is exactly how religion makes good people like you do bad things like that. This is where religion goes wrong, and why myself and many others here dislike it so much.
August 2nd, 2007 at 8:44 am
Fascinating topic, really. Good movie material additionally. I actually have nothing much to add to the comments here, truth is stranger than fiction. Surely things we don’t understand can be explained by way of science since everything we don’t understand can be explained via magic (hint cop out).
I mostly came to laugh at the quote “Leave the bullshit cures to the professionals.”
August 2nd, 2007 at 10:45 pm
Recovered Catholic Says,
Just to give background about the whole incident.
I used to play handball(sport famous in Europe and other area of the world except USA), and we were travelling in a bus to play a game in the our league, and that’s when the incident happend, and that’ why the Sheikh didn’t have time, and I think he didn’t have the enought knowledge to take this thing out of him, he just make him back, which the doctores failed to do.
I’m not cruel to my friend, I couldn’t to talk to him directly, people in Egypt take this thing in senstive way, but I think they talked to his parents when we went back.
The other thing, you talk about it like somebody is sick and it’s regular thing, you got really scared to see something like that, the whole team couldn’t sleep all night, so to assume that it’s not going to shake you it false assumption.
I my seld didn’t believe this stuff, and the reason to be honest this things scare the heck out of me, so preferd to ignore it, but when I saw, there was no doubt on my mind that it’s exist.
I just have one question, how human-being body didn’t sleep after three injection, and even the doctor mentioned it should make a horse sleep.
August 3rd, 2007 at 2:14 am
I just have one question, how human-being body didn’t sleep after three injection, and even the doctor mentioned it should make a horse sleep.
Adrenaline (Epinepherin). Hysterical people have plenty of it.
e.g.:
link
Adrenaline causes local tissue vasoconstriction, leading again to better and longer anaesthesia, and a less bloody field. Furthermore, as the adrenaline keeps the lignocaine in the local tissues longer, you are less likely to have systemic side-effects (meaning you can use more local anaesthetic).
I’m not cruel to my friend, I couldn’t to talk to him directly, people in Egypt take this thing in senstive way, but I think they talked to his parents when we went back.
I guess I understand that it’s probably not your place to give advice to your friend. But every religious person who clings to these magical explanations stops all people from looking for answers they need. I wonder what your friend and his family did later?
- did your friend get blood tests to see what was wrong?
- did your friend get an MRI scan to see what was wrong
…or did they just take him to the Sheik again?
If that’s all they did, perhaps it’s because people who keep saying
“I am not a doctor. I have never seen a psychiatric patient. But that doesn’t matter. If I don’t understand it, then it must be magic. So don’t worry, just say some magic prayers and hope it gets better.”
That’s silly. Just because you or I or the local doctor don’t have the specialist expert knowledge to make a full diagnosis doesn’t mean there isn’t one. I don’t understand how to make a microchip - does that mean computers are magic?
August 3rd, 2007 at 9:55 am
Ignorance, fear, and greed are the root of all faiths.
August 3rd, 2007 at 10:20 am
You guys talk a lot about psychoactive medicine. My personal opinion is that it’s better to keep the body free of alien chemicals as much as possible. How about some pills or injections for a start, to enable the patient to receive speech again and to calm him down, but then try to reduce regular doses over time while the main treatment is psychological (i.e. talk)? Is it so common to treat psychic illnesses with drugs only in the US (or whereever you are from)?
Concerning the main topic: If a single stun gun didn’t do the job I agree with Snurp that the old man was the possessed one.
To answer gasmonso’s question: I believe that religion is similar to violent computer games and violent music. It will further damage the damaged ones, but rarely turn people around completely. I know plenty of religious people who are peaceful and sane.
August 3rd, 2007 at 8:24 pm
This is why you gotta be careful around religious types. because they believe that dead people go to heaven, they’re more willing to kill. After all, whats the big deal, they’re in heaven right?
August 3rd, 2007 at 8:36 pm
Hoodlum,
They are in heaven right? the answer is no, not necessarily, it depends on what are you going to do in your life, it’s not guranteed.
August 3rd, 2007 at 9:07 pm
“You guys talk a lot about psychoactive medicine. My personal opinion is that it’s better to keep the body free of alien chemicals as much as possible. How about some pills or injections for a start, to enable the patient to receive speech again and to calm him down, but then try to reduce regular doses over time while the main treatment is psychological (i.e. talk)? Is it so common to treat psychic illnesses with drugs only in the US (or whereever you are from)?”
Treatment depends on the problem. A great many illnesses of the mind are rooted in biological issues, thus the need for medication. It’s just like taking pills to keep your heart from exploding, only they treat a problem in the brain that can’t be touched with therapy.
Many more problems are simply behavioral: issues in one’s upbringing(child abuse, maltreatment, neglect), deeply held misperceptions (phobias, prejudices, faith) and the like can be treated with normal therapy, be it 1on1, family therapy, support groups (not that 12-step bullshit), etc.
A lot of the time you have to pair the two. For example, someone I know had untreated BiPolar disorder for his entire life before finding appropriate treatment. He described it as being ‘unable to feel certain emotions, or unable to NOT feel others, completely at random’. This shaped his behavior during his childhood, so once the medications stopped the mania and depression it was necessary to begin continuous behavioral therapy to rectify those problems.
Yes, some doctors are overzealous with the medication. The vast majority however know what they’re doing. You see a kid who’s just way too full of energy, maybe a bit skinny. I see a child who may have ADHD, or possibly a hyperthyroid disorder who’s in for some serious problems down the road if he doesn’t receive the proper treatment.
August 3rd, 2007 at 9:19 pm
“This is why you gotta be careful around religious types. because they believe that dead people go to heaven, they’re more willing to kill. After all, whats the big deal, they’re in heaven right?”
“They are in heaven right? the answer is no, not necessarily, it depends on what are you going to do in your life, it’s not guranteed.”
Again you completely miss the point, Mohamed. Religious types, by and large believing in some form of afterlife, view death far less seriously than those who do not. Ergo, they have fewer qualms about killing others or dying themselves. I.E. Willingness to die in a ‘holy war’ such as for both sides during the Crusader Age, and the batshit insane suicide bombers of the modern era. Also, the Christians having no problems torturing people to death, since if they’re innocent they’ll be in heaven soon anyway.
Atheists, seeing life as the finite, single existence we have, may tend to view life with much more reverence. I say ‘may’ since atheists are a scattered group with no unity other than not being religious, so I can only speak for myself on this matter. I ‘believe’ that when we die, we cease to exist no matter our religious convictions. Thus why I believe a religious life to be a wasted, or simply less fulfilling life. I have no worries of hell or expectations of heaven, since neither exist. Just like all those suicide bombers, burnt witches, Holy War casualties, and every other person of faith who ever has and ever will exist, there is no afterlife and they’ve wasted their lives on religion.
You can believe whatever you wish, it changes nothing. But if you try to extend that belief to others, that dying is not so bad since the dead ‘go to a better place’ you are an utterly worthless excuse for a human being. Death is the ultimate punishment. Pain and torment is horrible, but once you die, that’s it.
So, Mohamed and any other religious folks. Have fun praying to your non-existent god. I truly hope it brings you some measure of peace and happiness, since you’re not getting anything else out of it.
Meanwhile, as you’re praying fruitlessly, I’m concentrating on having a happy, fulfilling life not worrying about what happens since I’ll be too busy not existing to be sad about having died.
August 3rd, 2007 at 9:54 pm
Let me use your method of argumnet, can you prove that there no after life?
I know your answer, but I want to hear it from you.
What if there is day of judgment, consider the question hypothitcal, what will you do if my words to you were real, and there is after life.
August 4th, 2007 at 1:14 am
Mohamed, nobody can prove a negative. It’s logically impossible.
Now that having been said, can you prove that Muhammed is not the sex slave of Jesus?
August 4th, 2007 at 2:32 am
No comments.
August 4th, 2007 at 10:41 am
Surrender, eh? Fine by me.
August 4th, 2007 at 12:21 pm
Hoodlum: You could have made your point being less insultive. I have never read insults from Mohamed’s side on this site.
Mohamed: There’s no proof for an afterlife, as well as against one. The sources stating that such a state exists are simply not trustworthy (religious books), so the topic is open for speculation.
Now there may be an afterlife or not. If there is one, we still don’t know if it is a good thing to stay there for the rest of eternity. Assuming the afterlife is a total joy, there remains further uncertainty: Do our actions in life have any effect on where our soul is going and if yes, how exactly do we have to act to achieve this?
It’s kind of the same problem as the “What is God like?” Question. Assuming that “God” exists, still no one knows if this enitity actually cares about mankind, let alone individual humans.
Now that having been said, it seems pretty wise to me to focus on our present existence - for which there is no real evidence but at least it has an observable effect.
August 4th, 2007 at 6:36 pm
Ugh, the biggest non-argument known to man.
“You can’t disprove my undisprovable theory based on this sketchy guesswork amd because this guesing is the only source of information, i’m automatically correct. Go me!”
I kind of like Hoodlum’s responce, it seems to be working. I’ve tried a similar approach before, using a…less colorfull… metaphor, but it got twisted beyond recognition.
August 4th, 2007 at 8:04 pm
I want to thank everyone who’s supported the takedown of the very pro-religious site, Wildman’s High. As you probably know, they’ve talked a lot of sh*t about folks who are anti-religion. If we don’t continue to band together, religion could become a world wide phenomenon. You can see this website at:
nateandjoe.blogspot.com
August 4th, 2007 at 10:11 pm
Crawdad Jenkins Says:
August 4th, 2007 at 8:04 pm
I want to thank everyone who’s supported the takedown of the very pro-religious site, Wildman’s High. As you probably know, they’ve talked a lot of sh*t about folks who are anti-religion. If we don’t continue to band together, religion could become a world wide”
Wow I think that’s what you keep complaining about religion, welocme to the wrold.
If you can’t prove it, nor I do can prove it, so I have 50% that I’m right and you wrong and vice versa, and I like to take my chances.
August 5th, 2007 at 2:23 am
Not 50 %, Mohamed, but close to 0. There’s not only two but an infinite number of possible truths, only one of which is the one you believe.
1) There may or may not be an afterlife. –> 50% Chance
2) It may or may not be good to get there. –> 25%
3) Our worldly actions may or may not have an effect. –> 12.5%
4) Which is the correct way to act? There’s about a million ways, only one is right. –> 0,0000125%
Of course I just assumed probabilities but I guess you see the problem. Even if you take the chances 1 to 3, you still don’t know what is the correct behaviour to dine in heaven instead of hell.
August 5th, 2007 at 10:21 am
Even assume there is an afterlife and assume there is god. So on the judgment day, is god going to take his decision keeping in mind did i believe him or not in my life? Suppose a person tries to be morally very right, gives his maximum effort not to harm anybody, does a bit of charity work, but doesn’t really believe in god. It is his inner instinct that drives him to do these good deeds. Would your god still send him to hell for not believing him? If this is the definition of your god, then he is not god, he is a big sadist and I hate him for that.
I assume even if there is a judgment day, the so called god will only take decisions according to our deed, not according to some rules laid down in fairy tales that is more confusing that problem solving.
August 5th, 2007 at 2:07 pm
The very idea of hell in the Judeo-Christian sense is utter nonsense. The bible never defines exactly what hell really is. The contemporary vision of the pit of burning torturous misery (while clashing completely with the whole merciful god thing) comes from works such as Dante’s Inferno, which was written as a satire on hell. Most biblical references to a non-heavenly afterlife are simply “the absence of the father”/”the absence of the lord”/”existing outside of the father/lord’s embrace” etc. etc. Sounds fine to me.
Rule in hell or serve in heaven, choose an altar or a throne.
I’ve already got my crown picked out, just in case.
August 6th, 2007 at 10:44 am
atheist is absolutely correct, and on top of that argument there lies the problem of all the factual evidence pointing in the other way, reducing the odds of Islam, Christianity or whatever being right even more.
Also, If hell is the absence of god, I’d actually prefer it to eternity with the biggest sadist ever.
August 6th, 2007 at 10:29 pm
Pleae Mr Athiest, would you apply the same method got created by acciedent, and you will see it will reach to the zero, and I will give you example for what you should apply, how the man got eyes, how the man get cells( and how they are different from palce to another), how the man got veins, how the man got legs, etc…( which I don’t think you can count how many things God create in you.
Apply the same statstics method and see that there is no way man got created by accident or the B.S that you are claiming.
It’s funny how people apply certain method when they want to prove their point, but they ignore it when it embarrase them.
I will tell how may percent that there is hell and heave, it’s %100000000000000000000000000, and I don’t think it’s even enough number.
August 7th, 2007 at 7:50 am
actually mohamed, You’re not getting it (again)
The odds of life being created by random molecules hitting each other are indeed pretty damn small. Good thing there’s a whole load of trails being done at the same time.
As for evolution.
The odds of humans evolving like they did is small. But the odds of something evolving somewhere, are over 100%. What you don’t understand is that if we weren’t here, we wouldn’t be talking about it. The fact that we are here, shows that the odds of humanity evolving are indeed above 0.
What you also don’t understand is how evolution works. This has been pointed out before, and you’re perfectly capable of looking it up yourself. suffice to say chance has little to do with it.
also, you seem to be totally avoiding Atheist’s point in that, purely by chance, you’re probably wrong about which deity your worship. Merely saying “No, you’re wrong” is not an argument.
August 7th, 2007 at 9:11 am
I have yet to see Mohamed argue anything, truly. He always simply declares himself to be correct because his faith permits it. If ignorance is bliss, he must be the happiest guy in the world.
August 11th, 2007 at 7:54 pm
this is and example of crazy people in america poor littler girl i think the one who need it and exorcism was the mother of the child and the grand father….
August 11th, 2007 at 8:31 pm
this is going to be another exorcist movie breaking the record of the original movie the exorcist meaby actors should be lindsay lohan and paris hilton yep
August 11th, 2007 at 9:05 pm
my thoughts is and i was not there at the time. in that house, went that tradegy happens but. i believe was not and exorcism i believe was that meaby the 19 year old woman was having sex with her father ronald marquez and the 3 year old girl was going to tell there relatives and they try to kill the 3 year old girl to cover the embarrassement by saying that there granddaughter she was posses by a demon remember this is america and people in america do all this kinda of crab america people lie to much but soon all later the truth aways come’s out of the dark.
August 11th, 2007 at 9:22 pm
all meaby its possible that they was practicing pedophile with the littler girl also and they trying to kill her to cover it up….. oh well god only know what happens
August 11th, 2007 at 9:59 pm
my last thought to closed this chapter, yeap it was something very evil was happening in that house but i am sure was not the littler girl,was does to animals the mother of the child and the grandfather of the littler girl and i list god send the grandfather to hell first because he died after, good…..now he is in hell paying the price for been a animal. god dont like when day abused precious littler childrens.
August 11th, 2007 at 10:03 pm
jesus said let all the children come to me because they are the kindom of heaven
August 12th, 2007 at 10:58 am
So Jesus is a pedophile just like his clergy, eh?
August 13th, 2007 at 5:01 pm
Way to go shake1bk, take the opportunity to bash America over a news story about a couple of sickos. You are just a prime example of the typical jealous moron. That was completely and utterly pointless. You show me a country that has no sickos doing weird shit and I will show you a country that has a dictatorship in control of their news. Not sure what third world hell hole you come from, but I sure am glad i’m not there.
The point is, this is clearly a story that shows the depths of sickness that religious extremism can plunge people. Since your last post was some sort of jesus quote, I gather you are religious, or claim to be like most people in the world today. I pity you, you are so full of hate for my country and it is mostly misplaced. Yes, I said mostly. I guess we don’t all lie do we? Sure we have done wrong in our history, but damn you, we have done far more good. No one is perfect, and a government run by people is no different. Some do it on purpose, and some are just dumb. Like George W. Bush. I don’t think the man is evil, he is just a moron.
August 15th, 2007 at 3:53 pm
to michael it was only my point of view to this case i was not trying to descriminated the country of america america is a big country with so much people but is true because we are having so much bad things happening in america specialy violances across the usa and i think we have the rigth to know why this all happening in america and who should point finger at to and who should be blame for this to the devil or george w bush all the failling leadership in this country
August 16th, 2007 at 10:36 am
Wow you are such a fool, shake. You’re always going to have a degree of violence and social unrest in any country, a statistical inevitability with such a large population. Since the devil does not exist it cannot be blamed, and Bush for all his faults is inevitably a glorified scapegoat. Finger-pointing only causes us to focus our ire on one individual as a source for our troubles and is a tactic of ignorant and weak-minded, such as yourself.
August 19th, 2007 at 6:15 am
Shake, punctuation is your friend.
also, as blasph said, social unrest is normal, you can’t blame Bush for that, however much you’d like.
You can, however, blame Bush for the current poverty level, unemployment, lack of education etc. etc. etc.
How much of that blame really should be his is up for debate.
August 21st, 2007 at 9:30 am
You know who I blame? First and foremost, parents. My parents did without a LOT so that my mom could stay home and raise me and my brothers properly. Teach me right from wrong. Kick my ass when appropriate. The result, I don’t do drugs and I keep a job and pay my bills. Oh, and I don’t murder people or rape them. The vast majority of the people doing these things were failed, first and foremost, by their parents.
August 21st, 2007 at 8:58 pm
michael is true because my mother and my father raise me and my 3 brothers the same way and we came out very good but what i dont understand why so much violence in the world and so much war and so much religions in war today and fanatism, should we believe in religion or should we believe that god is only a concept and why aways the american and israel presidents and goverments are aways attacking others religions ethics.
August 21st, 2007 at 9:17 pm
blasphemaster i understand that crimes and violences is worldwide situation like in sudan or israel or any other countries but my point of view is its the usa a big nation with so much deplomacy suppose to stop crime and violence and create peace in the world it seems to me that in step of creating peace are more to create violence, can any need one agree with me…..
August 21st, 2007 at 11:57 pm
I have heard a saying before, (Not sure where and not sure if I agree with it) that there is a certain type of peace that is only to be found on the other side of war.
Just thought it was an interesting tit bit.
Cheers
Simon Bond
September 4th, 2007 at 10:57 am
alcari Says:
“You can, however, blame Bush for the current poverty level, unemployment, lack of education etc. etc. etc.
How much of that blame really should be his is up for debate.”
While I agree that the president and his administration have a certain level of accountability when it comes to the economy, since their policies have a lot of affect on it, thus the poverty and unemployment comments are valid in my opinion.
However, I totally disagree on the education part. Education is an individual thing, you can’t MAKE people learn. The person who has the most affect on that, is those who have access to a child in their very early years. Ages 1 - 5, in my “unqualified to state this” opinion are some of the most important years in a person’s life. That is the time when they are building the foundation for who they will become.
Sure, they can work around that foundation in areas later, but it is much harder. If you instill into a young one, from those ages, a desire to learn and think, that will carry them for the rest of their lives.
It comes back to the parents for me, they have the biggest influence on their children at that age. I blame mom and pop (maybe an absent pop in a lot of cases). My mom read to me as a child, and she read for leisure. As a result, I had an interest in reading and, with her help, learned to read well before entering kindergarten. This has served me well, and to this day I am a huge reader. A side benefit of this is I spell well and have a good sense of grammar. Something all to often goes unappreciated on the internet, but It is a point of personal pride for me.
I just wish my mom had known to teach me the value of scholastic accomplishment and a college degree. I am a lazy person and thus skated by in school and never went to college. Yes, I did very well in subjects that were interesting to me, the others… not so much. I did just enough to get by. I have come to regret this.
This is a long winded way of saying, I feel it is the parent’s responsibility to teach their kids to think and learn. I know, if the parents are unwilling or unable, shouldn’t someone do it? I can understand that sentiment, but I am hesitant to allow the government TOO much control over the minutiae of our daily lives. I think we can all agree that once they get control they are very reluctant to give it up.
September 4th, 2007 at 1:53 pm
nono, you misunderstand.
I totally agree with you that the parents should be the ones raising their children.
I meant it more in that the government should fund education and offer the chance to anyone. As I hear it is rather prohibitively expensive in the US to get a higher education.
I just meant that governments should offer an education to everyone who wants it, not that they should force it on people.
September 14th, 2007 at 6:08 pm
Mohummed,
Can you prove to me the flying spaghetti monster isn’t a real creature, worthy of worship? There’s a real church surrounding such a creature, go look it up. It’s a paradoy religion, mocking all things religious, but when you get down to it, you could easily replace “flying spaghetti monster” with “Jesus”, “Zeus” or (if you pardon) “Allah” along with other elemtns of the mythos and you get the same sounding story.
LIke wise, I encourage you to go look at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell’s_teapot
You can’t prove that there is no flying spaghetti monster or teapot between here and Mars (telescops aren’t powerful enough) just like I can’t prove there’s no afterlife or god.
About your friend: I’ve seen people go hysterical while on various drugs and it is a scary sight. If you have never seen such a display and are very religious it is easy to say that it must be a demonic possession because that is the most available explination. However, why would a demon respond to medical treatment? The doctor your friend went to may not have known what to do (cocaine, and presumably other drugs are not so common in Egypt).
Do you see why some of us are skeptical of your claims? You just assumed that you were witnessing a demon possession because that was the most readily available explination. But there were (and are) facts not known to you that could more easily and rationally explain what your friend went through.