I recently received an email from an Atheist reader who needs some advice. Originally he addressed his problem to me, but I quickly asked if I could share it with the collective :) He quickly agreed so without further ado, let’s help out David :)
David wrote:
Hello friend! I’ve recently stumbled upon your website and wow, I have never met someone who agrees with the majority of my opinions on religion. So, congratulations on some very interesting reading. To set the record, I am an atheist of about 8 years. I grew up with a Catholic upbringing, but my parents (very logical people) started to move away from religion. We still have a great family, good morals, and an enjoyable life.
On another topic, I would like to pose a few questions to you. First, let me explain the situation. I am a mid-twenties college student pursuing a nursing degree at a 4-year college. I live on campus in an apartment style setup.
This year, I moved into my apartment with three new roommates whom each were randomly assigned to this living space. I found out very quickly that two of these roommates are very religious, conservative, Christians. I learned to stay out of religious and political debates very quickly with these two. One of my roommates participates in a Christian rock band. He obviously enjoys his music and loves to play it at significantly loud volumes. I have come to the conclusion that he does believe that he is bringing the word of God by playing his music. He knows that I am an Atheist and has done a lot to try to involve me with his religion.
What is your opinion on evangelism and conversion?
Have you had problems or ever noticed that some extremely religious people tend to have a sense of superiority? Some of this ego and evangelical behavior has detoured me from wanting to explore or learn about religion. Have you dealt much with these types of situations?
If you have read this far, thank you very much. I am sorry for being so long-winded. I am just curious about your perspective on these matters.
Thanks again,
David
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December 13th, 2007 at 12:14 pm
Hello David,
Welcome to the RF community.
I’ve noticed that most humans have a sense of superiority about something and that almost all of them have egos.
Honest evangelism is fine with me. The problem with much of modern evangelism is that it focuses more on telling others how to live their lives rather than simply spreading the message. I have visits from evangelicals of different flavors many times in the one year I’ve been in my house. The Mormons, Jehovah’s Witness (several times), and the Seventh Day Adventists have all knocked on my door. Almost every time, I’ve invited them in and had a chat with them. It’s been quite enjoyable.
But the key to having good conversations in my opinion is understanding where they are coming from. It also helps to have knowledge of their beliefs. With these elements, and a respectful discourse, you can challenge their beliefs in a way that is meaningful to them. I tend to focus on the unreliability of the Bible and the overwhelmingly liberal teachings of Jesus according the the New Testament. A book I am planning to read that may help you accomplish this is Getting On Message: Challenging the Christian Right from the Heart of the Gospel.
This approach has two advantages. First, it takes the pressure off of you and puts it onto them. Secondly, it gets them to think more deeply about their own beliefs and, hopefully, will lead them away from the modern conservative interpretation of their beliefs. The more liberal their interpretation, the less they will see you as a deeply flawed creature and the more they will be comfortable with accepting you as you are.
Lastly, I recommend leading them by example. Be a good person. Volunteer regularly. Show them that belief is not necessary to be good.
If you want to discuss further, feel free to contact me via email. Click my name to take you to my blog and then click ‘contact me’. Good Luck!
December 13th, 2007 at 1:32 pm
Thank you for commenting. I do mostly agree with what you have said on evangelism. I do not enjoy always being told that what I am doing with my life is wrong and that I need Christ or whomever to make my life truly complete. I do have an interest in learning about some of the different belief systems in the world. I have taken classes in my college about the origins and general beliefs of some religions (mostly western and it was all very general). From my point of view, I have a very hard time believing in a holy text that was written so long ago. I cannot tell if the Koran was written under divine influence or how the bible and it’s different versions were really the word of God. I get so confused about Christianity and the specifics because of all the different ways to interpret the holy texts as well as other confusing factors.
“Show them that belief is not necessary to be good.”
I agree completely with leading by example. I consider myself to be a very moral and polite person. I care about the person next to me which is part of the reason that I chose to pursue Nursing as a career.
December 13th, 2007 at 3:22 pm
If he’s blaring god rock, I suggest you develop a taste for Ministry, White Zombie, and|or Lords of Acid. Seriously. Play them loud. They’re quite good, actually.
As much as I would like to agree with Sid’s notion of leading by example, it’s doomed to failure. This sort of passive approach would require critical observation and thinking skills on the part of your roommates — something for which religious freaks are not known.
Further, I must also disagree with sid when he says that it “helps to have knowledge of their beliefs”. Bullshit. To paraphrase many others who have made the point in a much more eloquent manner than I ever could, if you tell me there are fairies and gnomes living in your garden, I don’t have to research fairies and gnomes in order to call you out for being full of shit.
December 13th, 2007 at 3:53 pm
Hello Mike S.
It depends on what your goal is. If your goal is to be ‘right’, then you are correct. You can tell them they’re full of BS. The effect will be that they will likely harden in their stance and come away with a more negative opinion of nonbelievers. If your goal is to be effective at influencing their thoughts and behaviors, you’re incorrect. One would have to research what people believe about fairies and gnomes in order to eventually convince them of their non-existence.
Also, in Dave’s particular circumstance, he has to live with these guys, presumable for quite some time. Being obstinate would likely make ‘home’ life stressful.
My goal is to increase critical thinking in the world, not to insult those who do not think critically. I must admit, however, that I am not above angry, insulting rants when amongst fellow rationalists. Also, due to frustration, I sometimes fail and resort to insults and condescension in interactions with religionists. I believe this to be a normal human failing.
December 13th, 2007 at 4:25 pm
It’s said by some that when you’re an American in another country, you’re a representative of America. For that reason, be a good representative, as you might be the only American some people meet, and if you’re respectable it’ll have a bigger impact than you realize.
I would carry this over to atheism (or any religion/belief). Let them see someone who is fine living as they are. Perhaps they’re willing to discuss their religion with you. If not, then that’s not a reason to increase tensions. Other than that, what sid said.
December 13th, 2007 at 5:50 pm
Howdy all,
I think this really comes down to what you hope to achieve here, as Sid has already metioned. The other thing it comes down to is the personalities of the people you have to deal with. With this in mind I don’t think there are any fool proof methods of dealing with the situation and it must be tailored to the situation at hand.
If you just want to live in reasonable harmony with your roomies then I have found a variation of the following idea can be helpful. I try to remove god and the bible from the discussion. Instead I talk about respect. How I respect their right to believe in God. How I repect their right to pray, listen to Christian music ect. I would then ask them why they don’t repect my right to believe in whatever it is I believe. Why do they wish to take away my free will. Do they want me to stop repecting their beliefs and begin to force my own point of view on them.
I do realise that this particullar idea may not work for you. Hopefully it may give you some ideas of an alternative approach.
If things have gotten really bad I tend to use some trick I picked up about living together that were instilled in me during my time in the navy. If people can’t seem to naturally get along then rules must be made to ensure everbody knows exactly what is and is not acceptable. These rules must apply to everbody and there must be penalties for no compliance. Examples of these rules may include music only being allowed at certain times at certain volumes. Changes to the rules can only be made by a unnaimous vote. Talking about any reigion must only occur if everbody involved in the discussion aggress ect. Now setting up and agreeing on the initial rules can be problomatic but I think worth it. After the rules are in place if the message has gotten through you can relax the rules or tighten them as the situation allows. Now I hate rules so I try to make them flexable. Things like “excepting where everbody aggrees” ect. Possible more like a few guidelines than a complete list of rules. Only have these guidlines concerning things that affect everbody as well. No silly rules like “you must not have pink bed covers”.
I don’t think I have explained myself very well in that last part. I have used this method whilst putting a stress on flexability and comunnication and it seems to work very well. Usually with a once a month dinner where everybody can vent on the rules and changes can be made.You would definately have to mold this one to your situation.
Hopefully in my rambling and incoherent manner I have provide perhaps some inspiration that may lead to soloutinons that wouldn’t occur to us here at RF. If you do come up with a novel way of dealing with the situation I hope you will come back here and share it with us. This way perhaps we can all lern how to get on with each other with a little less fuss.
Cheers
Simon Bond
December 13th, 2007 at 7:01 pm
Mike S.,
“If he’s blaring god rock, I suggest you develop a taste for Ministry, White Zombie, and|or Lords of Acid. Seriously. Play them loud. They’re quite good, actually.”
-While this might be amusing, I do not believe that it would solve my problem. Although I do agree that I might need to be a bit more proactive, and less reactive.
Sidfaiwu,
“Also, in Dave’s particular circumstance, he has to live with these guys, presumable for quite some time. Being obstinate would likely make ‘home’ life stressful.”
-Quite true. I am not necessarily looking for a way to influence their beliefs, but I am looking for a way to show them that I am fine living the way that I live.
Simon,
-Thank you. I have been considering revisiting our “roommate living contract” in the near future (They have already gone home for the holiday, so there is not much I can right now). I really do agree that we need to sit down and discuss some rules relating to noise and respectfulness. The general rule about noise when living on campus says something like, any noise that interferes with a student’s ability to study or sleep in their own room is not allowed. I’d say it is time to be assertive, not demanding, but assertive.
December 13th, 2007 at 7:04 pm
You guys have said really help idea’s on David’s problem, but the real problem is that my catholic brother has been turned against the fundamental issue at hand, that Jesus Christ is the Lord of his heart. Guys, he is my brother and i am just dissapointed that the catholic faith has let my brother down(just like me) and turned him away from the main reason, the anchor of hope we have in Jesus alone.
I was a catholic and lived like a atheist, but i turned back to Gods word and found what i was looking for, truth that we seek from the heart. I turned away from the riches of this worldly, because i had everything anyone could ask.
David, the job you are pursuing, a nursing degree at a 4-year college offers outstanding pay. i know, i have family in this line of work.
David, i’m going to be riped apart, once people read this but, please my catholic brother, remember, it’s not about a religion or joining a chruch, it’s about the ONE who forgives sins and gives LIFE, that you will never thirst again in Christ Jesus alone.
David, once you get your degree in nursing you will see life and death on your daily job. you will have the opportunity to give the HOPE that is in us, Jesus Christ alone.
David and friends, if i am preaching, i am sorry, but i am not sorry for the HOPE I have in a God that gives LIFE.
David, said, “I am an atheist of about 8 years. I grew up with a Catholic upbringing”
December 13th, 2007 at 7:16 pm
One thing that you have to give hyrocket is that he is irrepressible. Nothing seems to bring him down. Perhaps Christianity works for him. If it makes him happy and he doesn’t force his beliefs on anyone, I really can’t find fault with that.
Hyrocket, I want to point something out to you. Your comments are a bit repetitive. I don’t mean any insult, I just want to make you aware of it. It is the repetition that has turned so many against you, not necessarily the message you are trying to convey. We already know you think Jesus and God are wonderful and that you want everyone to agree with you, but we don’t. If you want to persuade us, rational argument is the best method. We respond favorable to reasoning, logic, and evidence. As I told Mike S., there is a difference between being right (even though you are not in this case) and being effective. I humbly ask that you work on being effective in the future. Thanks.
December 13th, 2007 at 7:16 pm
In my experience, just by telling a theist that I’m an atheist will cause them to become guarded and on the defensive. Honestly, just by simply saying I don’t believe in their god(s), some will immediately exclaim, “Well, you can’t change what I believe!” even if I had no intension of trying to. But I think that this is only the weaker theists who act this way. Someone in a Christian rock band knows very well what they believe and may be open for philosophical debate.
I do agree that it depends on what the goal is. Personally I like having knowledge of others’ beliefs…even for my own mind. Because no two people believe in the same version of god, I’m actually curious as to what some specifically believe. I love seeking knowledge and learning so its never a waste to know something about a religion (or even most/all religions). The way I see it, the more knowledge the better. I would ask questions and find out where you do agree. Any given two people will have something they agree on and something they disagree on.
And yes, show that you don’t need religion or god to be good. This is obvious but bares repeating sometimes. Point out how Christians “choose” what parts are moral and what parts are not in the Bible. Surely killing your kids (for heresy), owning slaves, etc is seen as immoral behavior. Theists consciously decide what’s right and wrong.
“I agree completely with leading by example. I consider myself to be a very moral and polite person. I care about the person next to me which is part of the reason that I chose to pursue Nursing as a career.”
I’m with David on that one. I’m not going into nursing but otherwise I’m very moral. I feel bad about even “little white lies”.
December 13th, 2007 at 7:27 pm
Yes Hyrocket, that’s very helpfull……..
The story is something that sounds VERY familiar, I’ve been in a group with a similar person, though he was a JW.
The way I solved it was by:
1 - Explain that you live a “good” life, you don’t hurt anyone, don’t break any laws, value family and friends, etc etc etc. Just like them.
2 - You respect their beliefs and don’t mind them being christian. You don’t do anything to bother them about their religion.
3 - You are not interested in sharing their beliefs, not today nor when they ask another hundred times, it’s bothering you and could they please stop.
Also, if the music is always to loud, just ask them to stop. If they’re not huge assholes, that should work. If they are villainous scum, see below.
ps, random roommate assignment sucks, if possible, go find a group with people you actually like and share interests with, that’s the ultimate solution.
December 13th, 2007 at 7:47 pm
Frankly. I am happy with my current life and beliefs. I’m trying to understand the people around me and live harmoniously with them.
Alcari,
I agree. I should probably insist that I am happy where I am and I need convincing otherwise. But that this opinion does not bar me from wanting to respect their ways. And yes, random roommate assignments stink.
I just get the feeling that I would not be having as many problems with them if I were something other than an atheist. I have noticed a stigma that follows atheists, that we are unfair and dissolute people who are immediately on the opposite side. I think that the key here is to have a healthy helping of respect on both sides of this argument. And not to treat the noise problem as a “Christian rock music” problem, but as a loud music problem.
December 13th, 2007 at 8:10 pm
I’ve always had trouble with christians, partly because im sitting here in the bible belt and partly because i LOVE playing devil’s advocate. Most of the ones i’ve clashed with have made EXTREMELY negative assumptions about anyone who doesn’t believe what they believe. I have also had at least two dozen people attempt to “convert” me, it hasn’t worked yet. I mean i guess it’s kinda flattering, but the sad fact is most people aren’t very intelligent, especially when it comes to religion. We’ve gotta accept that and do what we need to change things.
December 14th, 2007 at 6:30 am
Well, I can’t really say anything about the whole atheism stigma, as secular Holland doesn’t have any of those problems, 40% non-religious in general, 65% where I live. Of those who are ‘religious’, most don’t mean it.
But, I do notice a Atheist = Evil sentiment in the media. For some reason Christians seem to think that, without the promise of hell, atheists can’t be good people and don’t have morals. I’ve also noticed that the people who say this haven’t actually listened to any atheists.
It should be pretty simple to show them that you’re not evil incarnate, and that you’re trying to turn the world to evil.
to put it really cheesy: The only way to fight ignorance is with knowledge.
December 14th, 2007 at 6:48 am
You’ve definitely got a point there Alcari. I was discussing religion with my roommate a few days ago, and i just mentioned off-hand that I was an atheist. He just stopped in mid-sentence and asked if I was kidding. He was surprised that I was an atheist and…normal.
December 14th, 2007 at 9:22 am
A lot of posters here seem to be taking the tack that it’s perfectly acceptable to respect their beliefs and ‘just get along’. It’s not.
150~ years ago Harriet Beecher Stowe argued that the worst slaveowners were the ones who treated their slave ‘humanely’. Think about that. The worst slaveowners were not the ones beating and killing their slaves, but the ones who treated them “well”.
By making an otherwise horrid practice palletable to the masses they were prolonging that practice’s existence. We were able to look at the slaveowners as generally decent people with a few bad apples.
Apply that same line of reasoning (as Dawkins, Hitchens, and Harris have all done) to religion and you see that it is our willingess to ‘just get along’ and accept their beliefs that enables bass-ackwards places like South Dakota to outlaw any stem-cell research (thereby condemning people to death) and allows us to think that people like Mother Teresa are anything other than monsters for having convinced third world nations NOT to use condoms and suffer the AIDS epidemic because of a single bible verse about spilt seed.
It is totally acceptable to believe and ‘evangelize’ that religion is inherently bad. Do you think your roommates are going to feel bad about trying to convince you that you will burn in hell for not sharing their particular insanity? Me neither.
Here’s a question I like asking: As I understand it, for pretty much all protestant christian denominations a person is only responsible for his own lack of faith if he/she has been offered ‘the word’. If you were born in the deserts of Africa or the jungles of South America and had never even heard of Jesus, you would still get into heaven because you couldn’t be held responsible for not having worshipped properly. In addition, our earthly life is supposed to be inconsequential — a mere blink of an eye in comparison to the eternal afterlife. Why then, are we instructed to spread the word? Is God so starved for attention that he is willing to condemn millions (BILLIONS!!) of people to a firey eternity simply because they didn’t feel like converting? Seriously? If that’s the way it is, then if God does exist he’s a complete tool.
December 14th, 2007 at 9:29 am
Irishthunder,
“i just mentioned off-hand that I was an atheist. He just stopped in mid-sentence and asked if I was kidding. He was surprised that I was an atheist and…normal.”
Hah, that amusing thing is that I’ve had almost that exact situation occur. Then add in “But you don’t seem like an atheist.” I did not pursue the matter much further. I would have liked to ask him what he meant by that.
December 14th, 2007 at 9:45 am
So Religionists = Slave Owners. Riiiiiight. By implication Atheists = Slaves?!? While atheists are being discriminated against, I don’t think they are persecuted (at lest in the Western World) and certainly not to the extent that slaves were. Your analogy is unbalanced.
I’m afraid you are missing the point. We are all quite well aware of and alarmed by the evils that result from irrational beliefs (religion is just the most common cause of irrational beliefs). We agree that the world would be better off without religion and work towards that ultimate goal. How we differ from you and many other atheists is on tactics; on how we are to achieve this goal (or more realistically, approach this ideal).
Condescension, insults, and obstinance are ineffective tools. Take careful note here. I am not writing about whether these things are justified or not in light of the dangers of religious zeal. I’m only claiming that they do nothing towards the goal of reducing the influence of religion on society. In fact, they can be quite counter-productive and increase religions grip on society.
December 14th, 2007 at 11:11 am
“I did not pursue the matter much further. I would have liked to ask him what he meant by that.”
In my experience the best approach is to just not get to serious about it in conversations. Otherwise you might start looking like the “militant” atheist, and it’s hard to stay even-headed and reasonable with that looming over your head, think “angry black man”. To be honest I really don’t care about converting anyone, but I’m always ready to paint my picture of a world without religion.
December 16th, 2007 at 8:54 pm
I to like to start the discussion with christians on how society should work, instead of just getting along
But I also prefer not to get angry and/or insulted every time I see my roommate.
December 17th, 2007 at 3:05 pm
David,
I’d suggest being very cautious. Religious roommates can make one’s life close to Hell (hehehe). It’s fine to engage and discuss with someone you don’t have to live with. But roommates… It’s best to sweep the religious differences under the carpet or lock them away for now, and not to respond at all to any openings about the subject. It’s not their business, and it’s very dangerous grounds. Religious people are very likely to be irrational. Do you want to have an argument with an irrational person?
Politely but firmly objecting to the loudness of the music is fine. Mentioning or hinting about its religious nature isn’t going to help.
December 20th, 2007 at 8:37 pm
Obstinance seems to be a pretty good way for the religions to harvest potential followers… why not apply it in reverse?
December 23rd, 2007 at 5:07 pm
I think it is good advice to show respect to others as was the response written above; because most issues evolve from people being unreasonable about any subject. However, before any one should pose an idea as fact; as in what is real and what is not real; that same person needs to study their own beliefs to see whether they are knowledgeable enough on the subject to be a true representative of it; as in a religion or anti-religious belief. Posting a reply that says Christians are not knowledgeable of their own religion based own your own experience with one group or a denomination does not qualify you as expert enough to do so. Divisions within Christian believers does not represent Christianity; it only represents those groups who are separate from one another. An atheist will unwittingly say they have no religion while in fact they do; they belief in nothing above human intellect hence they believe in only human logic and as such they have faith in their own human thinking. To be religious means one has faith in something more powerful and greater than one’s self and atheists believe in the greatness of the human reasoning power be it logically scientific or creatively artist. They may never admit it to be religious in its content because they argue that they do not worship, yet they do because they esteem it, respect it, are convinced of it being able to save us all through the logical power it holds. Evolutionists are also a religious body, as they too believe in a theory which is based on faith and not on substance. For any one to chose either of these alternative religious beliefs that person needs to research the facts on each before posting their opinion as to their accuracies or otherwise they too fail just as they believe a Christian has failed to prove their belief. Accurate posting would require you to do authentic research and not to just post a biased opinion based on another person’s ideals.
December 23rd, 2007 at 9:34 pm
“Divisions within Christian believers does not represent Christianity”
I was reading your labored essay until I got to that line, which might be the most idiotic statement Ive heard in a while. So following your logic ANYONE from ANY religion can do ANYTHING they want because that person is only one person in the group.
“Evolutionists are also a religious body, as they too believe in a theory which is based on faith and not on substance.”
Have you taken any middle school science class? If you had, or paid attention, you would understand the difference between Scientific Theory and making shit up from your imagination. Even though a theory is not a law(few things are), it is still open in the scientific community for study and review, not too mention it already has evidence to support it, otherwise it would have already been thrown to the wayside.
Please, if your gonna say something, know something about what your talking about.
January 8th, 2008 at 11:49 am
For the record, I am Christian… but the initial response in this thread was spot-on excellent, in this theist’s view.
Just thought I would comment, as I was actually very surprised at the civility. :)
Best regards and Happy New Year…
January 8th, 2008 at 7:36 pm
Hello Rob,
I think you are referring to my comment. If so, I appreciate the compliment. I only wish I could always be so civil.
Happy New Year to you as well.