A Christian reader by the name of Kevin left a lengthy response to George Carlin’s Take on Religion. Since Kevin was kind enough to take the time to chime in, I thought it best to move his comment to the main page for all to discuss. It’s a long one so grab a cup of your favorite drink and give it a read!
Kevin writes:
I am a Christian. I’ve read 26 postings on this website and I’ve found only 2 to be somewhat supportive of Christian beliefs (although I don’t agree with their responses). Instead of attacking your beliefs and starting some kind of word war back and forth that does no good for anyone, I would rather provide some basic education on what the bible REALLY says and let you decide what to believe for yourself. Before we begin I want you to know that I’m a normal guy off the street. I’m not a preacher or some weirdo that stands on a street corner telling people their going to burn in hell. I’m just someone who was once like you (didn’t have much belief in religion) but decided to research Christianity so I could make a well informed decision whether I did or didn’t want believe in God. It just so turns out that I chose to believe. If after reading this you decide to explore Christianity further… GREAT! If you have further questions for me… GREAT… just ask! If you decide to remain an atheist, it’s your life and your decision to make. I just want to make sure you are educated when you make this decision.
George Carlin lists three main reasons why he doesn’t believe in God in this skit. They are: 1) why isn’t God visible, 2) if God loves us so much, why does He punish those who don’t follow His rules by sending them to hell, and 3) if God is so good why is there so much war, violence, death, etc. in the world? Since all of you are saying he hit it right on the head, I would like to explore each of these statements. Let’s start from the bottom and work to the top.
“If God is so good why is there so much war, violence, death, etc. in the world?” In the first book of the bible “Genesis†we are informed that God created heaven and earth in six days and then rested on the seventh. During these six days He also created man (Adam and Eve). We are also informed that man did initially live in a perfect place where there was no war, violence, death, etc (the Garden of Eden). God only had one rule for man while living in this place, which was not to eat from “the tree of life”. However, Satan (referred to as the serpent in the scripture) encouraged man to disobey God (which he continues to do even today), so they chose to go ahead and eat an apple from the tree. God was so disappointed with the fact that He created us and gave us this perfect place to live and we broke his one and only rule, that He banished all of mankind from this perfect place forever. Hence the condition of the world today. So in reality, it was our own disobedience to our Creator that allowed the war, violence, death, etc. to come into the world. Now, this may bring-up more questions. Some may wonder why God made this rule. Why not just let people enjoy life without rules? The answer is to establish God as our authority figure. Only those of authority can set rules. He wants us to acknowledge Him as our Creator and Father. Following His rules allows us to acknowledge this through our actions. Others may wonder why Satan was allowed to be in this perfect place. The answer to this is to give us freedom of choice. If God created us to be perfect robots, how personal of a relationship do you think we would have with Him? So, instead of creating us in that way, he allows us to be tempted and to choose Him. If we choose God and decide to place our faith in Him even after facing temptation, our relationship with Him becomes VERY personal. We start to actually live for Him instead of living for our own pleasures.
Okay, the next issue we need to deal with is, “If God loves us so much, why does He punish those who don’t follow His rules by sending them to hell?†The bible does in fact tell us that God HATES sin so much that the punishment for sin is eternity in hell. So, if this is true (which it is) doesn’t that mean we are all going to hell? After all, we are all sinners. I am. You are. Everyone who has ever walked this earth or will ever walk this earth has or will sin… except for one… Jesus Christ. This is the good news! All throughout the bible we are informed that Jesus lived an absolute perfect live (i.e. he never sinned – not even once). The reason He could do this was because He came from God. Jesus is a divine being that was not created by man, but rather a part of God who simply walked the earth. Maybe the best description is the spirit/soul of God’s Son who lived inside of a human body. He is the only One who has or will ever live on earth that didn’t deserve to be punished for sin. However, during His perfect life of teaching God’s word and showing us how to live He was unrightfully sentenced to death and killed (crucified on the cross). When this happened God took all of the hate He had for sin and took it out on Jesus. So, Jesus willingly stood on that cross and took the punishment we deserve just so God’s anger for sin could be quenched once and for all. Stop and think about this… Jesus laid down his life after doing nothing wrong because He loves us so much that He doesn’t want to see us go to hell. And God actually spent his wrath on His one and only son who did everything right, just so sinners like you and I could be forgiven. So, shouldn’t our question be, “How could God love us so much that He punished His one and only Son who lived a perfect life just so sinners like us could be forgiven?†This often leads to a secondary question, which is, “Do I need to do anything to be forgiven?†The bible tells us that everyone can be forgiven for their sins, no matter how bad they are. There are three actions that must be taken in order to receive this forgiveness. They are: 1) have faith that Jesus Christ was God’s son who lived a perfect live and died for our sins, 2) formally claim Jesus as your Lord and Savior by being baptized (also known as “being saved†– this is for a reason), and 3) “repent†by changing your life and trying to obey God’s commands the best you can (when you fall short – which we all will - just ask Him to forgive you and He will as long as you don’t take advantage of His grace by intentionally sinning over and over).
“Why isn’t God visible?†This was the first question asked. The bible tells us that nobody has ever seen what God truly looks like. However, before the birth of Jesus he did actually appear many times to humans in various forms (e.g. light, clouds, etc) and He spoke to them as well. So… why doesn’t He appear anymore? The answer is three fold. All answers relate to those already given. The first answer is that He has already told us everything we need to know. Not only did He speak to us many times before Jesus, but he most importantly spoke to us through Jesus. Jesus spent his life showing and teaching us what God wants. So what purpose would He have to hang around after telling us everything we need to know? To repeat himself? This leads us to our second answer, which is that He wants you to genuinely trust Him. Why should He have to repeat himself over and over? The only reasons we want to hear something repeated is if we didn’t understand it the first time or if we need reassurance. He wants us to read the bible for better understanding and to trust the words He and His Son have spoken to us. The last answer might be a tough one for some of you to grasp… its to help us establish a closer relationship with Him. This probably sounds backwards to most of you, but I assure you its not. I can testify as being a Christian myself that when you place your faith in the Lord, you are baptized, and you start to live your life for Him, you can actually feel His presence/guidance in your life as though He is a part of you. It’s an absolutely amazing felling! It’s an inner peace that words can’t describe. If you can’t relate to this just ask yourself, “Would you have a closer relationship with a God that actually becomes part of you, or with a God that is an independent being?
Well, these are the biblical answers to the questions that George Carlin and most of you struggle with. The tough part of believing in God is that it deals with “faith†or emotion/heart and not “science†or thinking/brain. Those of you who are very intelligent and rely on your brain than your heart to get you through life will likely struggle more than others. I would encourage all of you to seriously consider what I have written and to even visit a local Christian church to talk to a minister. They would be happy to spend one on one time with you answering any questions you have. The one thing I can’t stress enough is for you to take your time and make a good sound decision on this… after all we are talking about eternity. If you have questions for me, please feel free to reply. However, I would like to ask on both of our behalves that we keep it cordial and not get into a “war of the words†because that does no good for any of us. God bless.
–Kevin
Related posts:
- George Carlin’s Take On Religion
- The Evolution Of Religion
- Martin Thinks Atheists Are That Bad
- Religion Expelled For Bullying Students
- Just Ask! Brian “Humanistic” Jones About Deism
January 29th, 2008 at 6:01 pm
“I would rather provide some basic education on what the bible REALLY says”
this kinda smacks of the recent reader response letter and what IS or ISNT “real” christian behaviour. given that the entire range of christianity and the behaviour of its follwers within that spectrum all base their belief on the writings of the bible as their prime resource, i think its only fair to say that the bible actually says all that nasty shit too. you cant take the good and dismiss the bad any more than the lunatics can focus on the charming bits of the old testament.
As to the rest of this ‘explanation’, there are so many holes i wouldnt know where to begin (like in the genesis story, why would god choose to reveal himself to only the jews, and then change his mind later?) but “The tough part of believing in God is that it deals with “faith†or emotion/heart and not “science†or thinking/brain” really sums it up. Choosing to switch off your ‘thinking/brain’ for the sake of faith in an outlandish fairytale is why religion is always going to be a problem.
January 29th, 2008 at 6:05 pm
“It just so turns out that I chose to believe.”
oh, so you weighed everything and decided it just makes sense to believe in a god? Bullshit, if you had ever been in our position you’d know it doesn’t work like that.
Everything you said has already been regurgitated to most of us a thousand times before. You’ll make up any excuse to rationalize believing in a fairy-tale that’s proven wrong everyday.
January 29th, 2008 at 6:57 pm
Thanks for the information, Kevin, but I’ve heard all that before, many times. Still, I appreciate the spirit in which it was given. I was once like you, a Christian, who believed all the point you made. Yet when I critically examined Christianity, I became increasingly convinced of its falsehood. The main reasons I rejected Christianity are similar to Carlin’s points 2 and 3 even already knowing the rebuttals that you wrote.
Needless to say, I find your response wanting. Since you don’t seem to care for argument, I’ll not point out the fallacies in your theodicy. That is, unless you’re curious.
January 29th, 2008 at 7:38 pm
Wow…
First i’d like to point out to you that we allready know all of that. Personally, I’d very much like to the oft rehearsed counter and the counter to that, which, if you’re up to speed with christian apolegetic, all ends up with the final conclusion:
There is no real proof the christian God exists, and there is no proof he does not exist. The universe works equally well with or without God.
My one and only question is always this:
Why do you believe in the Christian God, while discarding all the thousands of other religions? And why should we?
And specially for you, I’d like to add this one:
Why did God create to universe to look like he didn’t?
Once you can provide a proper answer to those two questions, I will become a Christian.
January 29th, 2008 at 7:43 pm
“God was so disappointed with the fact that He created us and gave us this perfect place to live and we broke his one and only rule, that He banished all of mankind from this perfect place forever. Hence the condition of the world today.”
I find the above sentiment one of the more odious ones in the bible… So apparently the rest of us are punished for something done by 2 people that we had no control over and were gods design anyway? Cheers god, thanks for war, famine and disease thanks to some schmucks adam and eve! (and the idea that INFANTS are born in sin is utterly repugnant).
“The only reasons we want to hear something repeated is if we didn’t understand it the first time or if we need reassurance.”
Wouldnt the fact that so many of gods potential followers are being ‘lured’ into similar, equally attractive religions (and in the case of islam and mormonism, one that supposedly worships the same god but supersedes christianity) be cause for him to set the record straight? its not their fault they were ‘designed’ to be gullible and that they were born in a country that jesus’ word never reached?
“I would encourage all of you to seriously consider what I have written and to even visit a local Christian church to talk to a minister. They would be happy to spend one on one time with you answering any questions you have.”
What, even if said ministers dont have any answers? same ministers who once wouldve given people up to be burned at the stake for waivering faith?
“However, I would like to ask on both of our behalves that we keep it cordial and not get into a “war of the words†because that does no good for any of us.”
To the contrary.
I doubt that many christians are particularly cordial to atheists. And the only way that religion is going to cease to be a problem is through reasoned debate and criticism by people who can see through the inconsistencies, indoctrination and complete fallibility of the bible and christianity.
January 29th, 2008 at 8:06 pm
In other words, your God is an asshole who stacks the deck.
No thanks.
January 29th, 2008 at 8:10 pm
“In other words, your God is an asshole who stacks the deck”
Greatest summary EVER, cheers Tommy.
January 29th, 2008 at 8:11 pm
Kevin,
If you go to my site http://www.christianpwnage.com
It will address any question you have on the issues at hand. Dig through the archives and view the essential material I have set up for creationists.
Rich
January 29th, 2008 at 10:18 pm
@Kevin:
What makes you think that before being an atheist, we wouldn’t have thought about all these silly things, which actually are sort of the early questions we need to face. In fact we have pondered on this issue much more deeper than what you are presenting. Just forget about your Christianity and Bible. I can find innumerable loopholes in your argument but i don’t have time to point out everything. If you are interested in those issues, you can go to http://www.ebonmusings.org and click on atheism page. Really very exhaustive essays on each and every thing you have asked and much more than that.
Now leaving alone Christianity or any religion as to say, just concentrate on god aspect or supernatural aspect. Is there really any chance of there being any supernatural being and to what extent does that influence ones’ daily life? For me, this whole universe runs on basic laws, which is applicable to any part of universe. There seems no evidence of any kind of phenomenon going on, which really makes me think twice about any god being present. Even if there is god, i don’t really think he has any intentions that we care about him in any way. He has made the laws of universe and has allowed the time to take its own course without interfering in it.
If god was there, why did he choose evolution for making life on earth? Why did he wait for so long before he could make a life like man, which is the only creature that actually worships him? I find this question very mind boggling. Now don’t tell me that you don’t believe in evolution because that makes you unworthy of any of these explanations.
Now you are telling that god has already told everything about himself before Jesus was born and now he wants us to study bible to know about him. Now this raises another important question, why doesn’t he really come and refute the stark contradictions about his methodologies and proof that science shows. Science will surely cause anybody to have a little doubt, at least in their religion, not necessarily god, when there are so many religions, which are mutually exclusive. The onus lies on god to come back and reconcile the whole issue. A 2000-year old book, which has been edited so many times, is not a valid reason for me to believe in him.
Now in this age of various psychiatric advances, now it’s not even safe to say that “I am having a personal relationship with god and i don’t care what religious text says because i know there is god as i talk to him personally”. This is the toughest part to argue with but if you really do some research, you will know that our mind has an amazing capability of showing what we want to see or telling what we want to hear. Take a lesson on illusion and study how vulnarable our human brain is where we can’t even rely on our memory if the fact goes against our memory becuase memory is not a record of an event but just interpretation of an event, which can be really altered according to a person’s belief or knowledge.
I know this is very boring thing to read but at least take the pain to visit http://www.ebonmusing.org or visit Rich Rodrirguez’s site as mentioned previosly. You will at least come up with something new for us to think over.
Note i have addressed god as he rather than she. Like George Carlin says that god is surely a male because a female can’t screw up its work the way god has screwed up the world (not exact quote but just what he meant).
January 30th, 2008 at 1:51 am
Kevin:
Your lack of respect for my hero George Carlin is degrading for both of us. He’s not famous for belittling religions, he’s famous for telling it like it is.
If I wasn’t so busy trying to ban Scientology from society, I’d tell you how you’re wrong.
January 30th, 2008 at 8:39 am
Correct me if I am wrong, but this dude said that Adam and Eve were booted from utopia for partaking of the “tree of life”, it says in the bible that they were evicted for partaking of the “tree of knowledge of good and evil”. Are those two trees one and the same? Or does Kevin just not know his bible very well? I was always under the impression that they were two different trees, and the tree of life was ok to eat from (and thats where they got their longevity I assume).
January 30th, 2008 at 9:11 am
Probably the same but the whole paradise bit is full of oddities. Considering that in the Genesis it is said
If all are given to Adam, why it took god time to get up to the part forbidding the eating from that tree of knowledge? It is mentioned in genesis 2:17. That sounds like thing to say first, not later on.
But bible is not even certain whether humans were created prior plants or after, so it is only one snafu in a long line of snafitude.
January 30th, 2008 at 10:22 am
“our relationship with Him becomes VERY personal”
Wait, what? Are we, collectively as the human race, going to have sex with god?
“So, Jesus willingly stood on that cross and took the punishment we deserve just so God’s anger for sin could be quenched once and for all.”
That sounds like an abusive relationship…or a lil bit of S&M I can’t tell..
January 30th, 2008 at 10:26 am
Oh and snide comments aside, thanks for the letter Kevin but like others have said, these are points I’ve heard over and over. They don’t hold any more water now than they did the first time I heard them.
January 30th, 2008 at 11:42 am
Why do attempts to justify faith always devolve into a complete abdication of reason? Again and again we have all seen these types of rationalization masquerading as logical argument and every time I get my hopes up. I even read Francis Collins’ (the so-called father of the Human Genome Project) book explaining his belief in God and was disappointed to see him make the same logic-free argument.
I don’t need god, or even really want to believe in “something greater than myself.” What brings me back is a burning desire to understand why seemingly rational people so readily buy into these fantasies.
January 30th, 2008 at 1:10 pm
Another thing I wanted to mention about that whole “kicked out for partaking of the tree of knowledge” thing. This is one of my favorite things to point out in the bible, because it is SO damn suggestive. To ME that says that you are supposed to stay dumb. Adam and Eve were booted for learning. For gaining knowledge. We all know its easier to get uneducated people to believe what you say, to kill for you, and to give up their hard earned belongings to you if god says so.
January 30th, 2008 at 3:33 pm
So let’s look at what you’ve done here.
You’ve decided to believe in God, and as a reasonably moral person, have decided to ignore the less moral bits of the bible, where God kills in excess of two million people, and focus only on the bits that agree with your fairly normal moral code.
Because there are some bits of the bible that aren’t crazy, of course there are, but what happens when you pick and choose which bits to take literally.
Quite simply sir, you are playing God. For us rational people to even entertain the thought that the Bible is the word of God you would have to at least tell us (as proof is an alien concept to people of faith), at least assert that it is the literal, undeniable word of God.
Except you can’t do that, because just like me you find the idea of killing thousands of people, despite the fact they are no longer a threat(Exodus, just after the bit where moses parts the red sea- yes i’ve read your book too) disgusting. Instead you decide that only parts of the bible are true, and admit that some of it is fallible.
The problem we have here, as rational people, is we can see that there is no way to distinguish between the true and the untrue parts of the bible, the stories and metaphores and the “word of god”. When you tell us which bits to believe, you are assuming that you know god’s morality, that’s right, you’re trying to tell everyone that you know what god was thinking when the book was written, that you can tell us what god wants us to do, when we can’t.
Can you see the problem yet? Nobody is going to take that kind of crap until you come up with some sort of reasoning that doesn’t involve your own specific interpretation of a two thousand year old fairy story, because it’s not god doing the interpreting, it’s a person just like me.
But, just to keep everyone entertained, i’ll crush the arguments you raised one by one in the next comment.
January 30th, 2008 at 3:43 pm
These are actually quite simple, so i won’t take much time over them.
Sufficient rebuttal to your entire case can be summarised by saying:
“Guess what genius, look at your own definition of god before trying that crap”
let’s have a look at some examples:
“God was so disappointed” how can he be disappointed if he knew what was gong to happen because he designed it that way.
“it was our own disobedience to our Creator that allowed the war,” No, it was GOD, because he created everything, including our disobedience.
Then we get something along the lines “but god created satan so we could have free will and he did all the bad stuff” but this is GOD we’re talking about. Surely someone you are trying to tell us can DO ANYTHING can do a little thing like giving us free will WITHOUT suffering.
And if you even think about trying the “well we’ll never truly understand god” line of rhetorical bullshit don’t bother, because you won’t be able to show any reason to believe why your interpretation of god holds when he is by your definition beyond understanding.
January 30th, 2008 at 5:11 pm
A couple of people mentioned the Tree of Knowledge. I would like to point out, as it has been pointed out in many past entries on Adam and Eve, the full name of the tree was “the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil” (Gen 2:9 KJV). Basically, God telling Adam not to eat from the tree, because it was wrong, was like telling Adam that Microsoft sucks. It would have been total nonsense, a non sequitur. It was a setup. What kind of loving God is that?
January 30th, 2008 at 5:12 pm
Ditto Michael and co.!
“Those of you who are very intelligent and rely on your brain than your heart to get you through life will likely struggle more than others”—Kevin
Um…yeah–that pesky brain sure makes us think a lot–hence our rejection of silly ideas like the earth was created by a man-like God in six days and then He “rested” on the 7th? OK!? “He” this and “He” that–*yawn*
January 30th, 2008 at 6:06 pm
Poor kid.
I wouldn’t hate Kevin if he never responds to any of you guys.
Is it just me, or did this place used to be a little less aggressive?
January 30th, 2008 at 6:10 pm
Great posts everyone! This has turned out to be one of Gas’s best threads.
To paraphrase Kevin’s statement: “Those of you who are very faithful and rely on your heart more than your brain to get you through life, are forgetting you genitals.”
January 30th, 2008 at 8:26 pm
Well Milo, if you look at the top few replies, they’re all pretty decent, and it gets worse and worse as he doesn’t respond.
The place used to be less aggressive, but personally, I can’t blame the people here for being a bit insulted by this feeble attempt at explanation.
January 30th, 2008 at 9:58 pm
Using the Bible to defend the existence of God is akin to using The Lord of the Rings to defend the existence of Balrogs, Elves, Orcs, and Wizards.
Maybe I should invest in a pocket copy of the Silmarillion to counter this pathetic excuse for an argument whenever Christians use it…
January 30th, 2008 at 9:58 pm
Jews too, can’t forget about those silly Jews…
January 31st, 2008 at 3:21 am
OR maybe the religious posters have read these little tidbits to increase the ire in the replies?
281 tricks to irritate an atheist
January 31st, 2008 at 11:12 am
Nice list Jag. Some of my favorites:
24) Drink the last beer in the fridge.
25) …and buy natural light to replace it.
40) Repeat something over and over, as if that made it true.
41) Repeat something over and over, as if that made it true.
42) Repeat something over and over, as if that made it true.
51) If a plane crashes killing 300 passengers and crew, but one little girl survives with only third-degree burns, tell him that this miracle proves the existence of God.
69) Admonish him to have sex for reproductive purposes only.
71) Refuse to debate.
72) Name a bunch of smart Christian people.
73) …and when he names a bunch of smart atheist people, call him stupid.
76) Burn him at the stake.
97) Claim that circular reasoning is legitimate due to circular reasoning being legitimate.
January 31st, 2008 at 11:40 am
Kevin has read the list that Jag posted, and here is my proof!
“14) Post inane arguments on the Internet, and never follow up on them.”
Milo, he started it. He went about his post like he pitied us for our ignorance, and was certain he would show us the error of our ways with one email. Unfortunately, his email was pure nonsense and was nothing we haven’t seen before. It is a bit irritating when god-botherers think they are all that and a bag of chips, when in reality they end up just being a pile of greasy crumbs.
January 31st, 2008 at 12:03 pm
I emailed with Kevin and he gave every impression that he would be back to respond. To be honest it actually pisses me off a tad that he seemingly fled :(
I wish a person of faith would stick around and follow through with the debate just once. To me it seems that most don’t want to realize that their belief in God is purely based on faith. There is no evidence to prove otherwise. Absolutely none. They WANT to believe in God. They HAVE to believe in God. God is what brings meaning to these people’s lives.
But why is that? Why can’t religious people be content with life the way it is? Is the Universe not amazing enough for these people? If there is such a thing as God… then it’s the Universe itself. What could be more magnificent than that?
January 31st, 2008 at 2:34 pm
Because you see, gas, sometimes life makes us unhappy, and there has to be a reason. It can’t be because that’s how life goes sometimes, or people are assholes, or something like that. There’s a REASON. I mean, with wars and starvation and everything, if there’s no reason for it, then…what? And if the reason is God, well, that answers everything! It all makes sense! Then we can think about something else until such time as things start to suck, in which case God comes in as explanans. So yeah, God is meaning, but he is meaning in a sort of all-encompassing way. Why life is, why good is, why evil is…God. And he gives us heaven for the low low price of faith. Not a bad deal to some.
January 31st, 2008 at 3:37 pm
I have not fled. I am a husband and father of two, who coaches his son’s basketball team and has a full time job. I simply have not had time to respond. Life is busy, and although I have periodically been peaking at the postings, as you can see there is a LOT to respond to. I can’t write a response to these comments without setting aside a large chunk of my time, which I have not had over the past couple of days. Please be patient, as I will try to gather my thoughts and get back to you this weekend or sometime soon after.
January 31st, 2008 at 4:41 pm
See, some people are weak. They are unable to find meaning for life internally, so they must look elsewhere for it. So they hinge their own self worth on the contents of a ridiculous musty book.
God is their binky.
January 31st, 2008 at 6:32 pm
The way I see it is that religion is a way of externalising control over life itself, a way of taking it out of your hands and in a sense leaving yourself blameless or being able to blame others.
Hate war?
Nothing I can do about it!
Hate Famine?
I didnt cause it!
etcetera
I think some people like the idea that there’s some all-powerful god who has done things for mysterious reasons that we cant understand, so best not to rock the boat or actually do anything ourselves. And there are others who like to attribute random good and bad things happening to god being happy or upset with us in order to give validity to their arguments. ie girl saved from plane wreck = divine intervention (too bad for the other 299 people), or god threw a hurricane through new orleans because of all the homosexuals (pity it hit the poorer christian areas harder than the latin quarter).
Unfortunately ‘good’ christians who do go above and beyond the limited definition of christian morals are often still motivated by a sense of doing it to reserve themselves a place in heaven, rather than actually reducing human suffering.
January 31st, 2008 at 7:14 pm
Now, it might be only my impression but after reading Kevin’s trinary of faith few times, I keep coming to one main point.
Kevin’s God merely wants to be the top dog, head honcho, the main man.
The first part of the trinary even states that clearly.
It has nothing to do with love of a father or pride of a creator. It is all about control. You broke the rule and therefore I will torment you.
The second part enforces the image as it describes how to curry the favour of a god, which also is three part process. The short version of it is, submit to my will and I might forgive. I say might as it is not one time deal. Humans fail and are forced to repeat the process of groveling.
The last part of trinary is also about control. God has already said his piece and has no interest of repeating himself as that would actually break the dominant to subservient relationship. Clearing up any misunderstanding would make it hard for humans to fail in meeting his standards. Without failure humans would not be subjected to the trinary process of gaining his favour again.
It seems like god is a practitioner of BDSM and humans are his slaves. On one respect Islam actually is more honest religion than Christianity, it clearly states that it is all about submission to god’s will.
February 1st, 2008 at 7:43 pm
Kevin
You say the Christian god informed our distant ancestors over 2,000 years ago that he’s the genuine item. Perhaps he’s too busy these days to send us all a reminder.
But, considering there are 6 billion of us fools down here today, many of us facing eternal damnation, might I suggest he take a minute or two to send us all a follow-up reminder?
And please, something credible and convincing. No solitary baby surviving a high-casualty plane crash. Perhaps he could rearrange some stars in the Andromeda Galaxy to spell out “Jesus Saves.” Or maybe in capital letters on the next full moon.
I, for one, would be first in line at church this Sunday, wearing knee pads.
Better yet, it would also let those silly Muslims know not to strap explosives to their chests in the name of that impostor, Allah. Not to mention all those Buddhists, Hindus, Taoists etc. who got it wrong.
Cripes, Kevin, Coke advertises continually that their stuff is the real thing. Why not god? Perhaps you could make these suggestion the next time you and he have a chat, since you clearly have a wonderful understanding of his intentions and motivations.
And for Christ’s sake, Kevin, Laugh a little. Carlin is funny.
February 4th, 2008 at 8:11 pm
So you just believe the bible is true/right? Sometime I believe that some ppl along time ago wrote it to help answer people’s questions about why we are here.
February 4th, 2008 at 8:19 pm
Aprille, thats why EVERY religion was created. Welcome to the club.
February 8th, 2008 at 10:07 pm
Okay… so I’ve given this a LOT of thought and I have come to a decision on how to best respond to your postings in a way that will not leave you hanging, but will also not waste a ton of my time. The way I see it, I could very easily take several days to sit and write detailed responses to every one of your 30+ comments, which will likely lead to 30 more responses, which will take several more days to respond to, and so forth. I mean really when you look at all of the different sections of the bible that can lead to questions, we could continue this until the cows come home! Don’t get me wrong, if I felt like it would truly help some of you to consider Christianity, I would GLADLY do it. However, after reading how dark, insulting, and close-minded most of your postings were, I personally think it would be a big waste of my time. It’s my personal opinion that for most of you nothing I write will make you change your mind. However, there are a few that seem to be fairly open minded and looking for honest answers instead of just looking for a fight. So, for those of you in this category, I want to give you my personal email address (christiankevin75@yahoo.com). I would be more than happy to talk to you one-on-one and try to help clarify things the best I can.
Before moving on, I do want to acknowledge a few of your arguments that I cannot disagree with. First, I want to admit that because I am not God, I don’t have answers for every single question you might come up with. I will also acknowledge the fact that there are sections of the bible that are not black and white. Therefore, they are sometimes interpreted differently. I am a “Non-Denominational Christian†who is sharing what we believe. After saying this however, I also want to point out that there are many places in the bible that are black and white and do not leave room for interpretation. A good example is the scripture I shared in my original posting about the gift of salvation through Jesus’ life, burial and resurrection. There is no gray on this subject, and this is THE most important thing to grasp.
This posting will not address ALL of your questions specifically. Instead, I have generalized most of your concerns and tried to address them in a broader manner. After looking at what all of you had to say, it seems that there are two groups of people here. One group that doesn’t believe a God exists at all. The other group seems to acknowledge that God exists, but they just don’t agree with or understand His ways. I will try to address both groups with insight into why Christians believe what we believe. Before we go there however, I want to clarify just a couple of my initial comments due to some of your responses.
CLARIFYING MY INITIAL COMMENTS…
1) “Smilingface†opened up with asking me why I thought none of you had ever explored Christianity before, when in fact you have. I guess the reason is because once I started to study the scripture for myself, although I had a ton of questions just like you, I found my answers when I looked hard enough. I just assumed that most people who don’t believe in God have not studied His word. After reading some of your responses it seems that I have underestimated a few of you in this respect. I can tell that some have in fact read sections of the bible. My apologies… I didn’t mean to insult anyone.
However, in the same breath I did see SEVERAL comments posted that led me to believe that there are others who are not extremely familiar on the contents of the bible. So, I don’t think my detailed explanations were completely in vein. For instance, one person claimed that the bible doesn’t say if plants or animals were created first. The scripture is actually very clear on which was first. Genesis 1:11-13 tells us that plants were created on the third day, and Genesis 1:26-31 tells us that he created man on the sixth day.
I will be the first to admit that the bible can be very confusing to read, especially the King James version. For those of you who get confused or frustrated when you read the bible, I would like to recommend that you study the “Quest Study Bibleâ€. It is written in modern day English (without all the ye’s and thou’s) and it actually has side notes that help to clarify a lot of confusion. It also has study plans and references all throughout. It can be bought at most book stores.
2) A couple of you pointed out that the tree in the garden was actually “the tree of the knowledge of good and evilâ€. You are correct. My mistake. The “tree of life†was also in the garden but not forbidden to eat from. They are mentioned in the same sentence and when I was writing my initial posting I was not referencing the scripture word for word at the time. Regardless, the content of the message does not change.
3) Alex claims I am “playing God†because I’m only telling you the nice parts of the bible that I want you to know about. I am not trying to conceal any part of the bible from you. In fact, I encourage all of you to study the entire thing. I was simply addressing the three concerns that George Carlin brought up, and I felt the scriptures I referenced were the best fit. I will not deny there are sections that discuss things like: the time God flooded the earth and killed everyone on the planet other than Noah because they had become so saturated with evil. There was also the time that God killed the entire Egyptian army who was chasing Moses & the Israelites by drowning them in the Red Sea because they had repeatedly disobeyed and lied to God. The Passover is probably the most gruesome of all. It refers to the time that God killed the first born son of every household in Egypt because the Pharoah repeatedly disobeyed and lied to God. Honestly, these events don’t even hold a match to what the book of Revelation tells us God will do to non-believers after Jesus returns for the second time.
See… these are the parts that are hard for us to read and understand God’s logic. I am human too, and I agree with Alex that it is difficult to think about all these people dying. However, that does not mean that I don’t believe in God or do not trust His ways. Notice that I didn’t say “understand†His ways? That’s because I don’t always. I don’t think anyone does. But other parts of scripture give us assurance that God does love us and He knows what’s best for us.
A great example of this is the same scripture on Adam & Eve that so many of you have commented on. Adam & Eve already knew good, but before eating from the tree they did not know evil. God obviously knew it would be better for them not to know evil, so He told them not to eat from “the tree of the knowledge of good and evilâ€. When they decided to eat the fruit they realized they were naked and immediately felt embarrassment, guilt, and fear which caused them to hide from God. They thought eating the fruit would benefit them, but it actually did nothing but harm them. This is just one example of many that reinforces the fact that God knows what is best for us, so we need to trust Him (even when we don’t understand).
IF YOU THINK GOD DOES NOT EXIST…
1) If you are one who doesn’t believe God even exists, you have a longer journey than anyone. One reason is because you have to get over this hurdle to move on and learn anything about God or take Jesus as your savior. You also are someone who needs something that nobody will be able to provide other than God… that is either visually seeing scientific proof or seeing God Himself.
So, I can not provide any “physical evidence†that you can hold in the palm of your hand or look at under a microscope that shows God’s DNA. But I do have three things I would like to offer as “logical evidence†proving that God exists. They are creation, scripture, and Jesus. I’m sure most of you have heard these points “regurgitated a thousand times beforeâ€, but I’d like you to bear with me.
Exhibit A – Creation. Ah, the ultimate debate! Creation, evolution, big bang, your homemade version… what is it for you? Most Christians believe in creation because the bible teaches it. However, because I want to discuss the bible in my next point, I’ll leave scripture out of this one and just include my personal view point instead. There are many amazing specimens to observe for this argument, but one will do just fine, so let’s take the earth. The earth is estimated to weigh approximately 6,570,000,000,000,000,000,000 tons. It’s dimensions are 8,000 miles in diameter and 25,000 miles in circumference. Yet the earth is more accurate in its movements than the finest and most delicate watch that man has ever made. The earth travels over 595,000,000 miles in a year’s time as it circles the sun, yet it does not vary in the length of time it takes for each trip by as much as one half of one second! It has done this for thousands of years. How can this be explained? I know many of you are already reaching for the keyboard to rattle off some explanation of how there are these “universal laws†that come into play and I don’t disagree that those laws exist, but the question is not how this works but rather how something this incredible was created. I mean, if we are going to talk about laws, the law we should be talking about is cause and effect. For every effect there must be a cause. The world is the effect… what is the cause? The world and our universe did not come into being by chance. Nothing did not produce something. I can not believe that atoms united and created this masterpiece. For argument sake, let’s just say that maybe it was atoms that united…. who created the atoms? I just cannot wrap my mind around how someone could not KNOW there is a God when they look at what’s around them. For me… this is all the proof I need.
Exhibit B – The bible. Let’s say that “Exhibit A†didn’t penetrate you at all. You are sold on the fact that a few atoms collided and presto… this amazing earth was formed. So, let’s discuss another piece of logical evidence. The bible is everything to the Christian. This is where we get all of our beliefs and values. In the bible there are several different people, from Moses to Joshua to Samuel, who have documented their personal interactions with God. So, if this is true why do you doubt? Our ancestors talked with God and documented it just so we would know that He is in fact real. So why do you not take their word as the truth, yet you trust other books written by our ancestors? For example, why do you believe that George Washington was the first President of the United States? Where you alive to see him get sworn in? No. You accept history books as your proof. The bible is a history book that proves the existence of and tells us about God and His Son. This leads us to my next point.
Exhibit C – Jesus. If you can’t accept documented events where our ancestors talked to God just because God was not a fleshly being and you feel these people could have been hallucinating or something, then consider Jesus as your evidence. As I explained before, Jesus is a divine spirit who lived in a human body while he walked on the earth. We know he had a human body because there are thousands of people who were documented walking with him, touching him, talking to him, asking him questions, listening to him teach, eating with him, crying with him, sleeping beside him, and seeing him bleed. We know he is a divine spirit for several reasons. The first reason is because He was born from a virgin (Matthew 1:18-23). The only way this could possibly happen is if the conception was supernatural. Second, there were a ton of people who were documented as confessing that Jesus was God’s Son, including random people (John 3:1-2), Jesus’ apostles (Matthew 16:16), angels (Luke 1:35), demons (Matthew 8:29), Jesus Himself (Matthew 26:63-64), and God Himself (Matthew 3:16-17). The third reason is because of all the miracles he performed. I could list a ton of examples, but how about just a few found in only one book of the bible? He fed 5,000 people with only two fish and five loaves of bread (John 6:9-13). He walked on water (John 6:16-21). He healed the blind (John 9:11). He brought the dead back to life (John 11:38-44). So, how could a fleshly human being that walks, talks, eats, sleeps, and bleeds just like you and I do these things? They couldn’t. Jesus is divine. Therefore proving the existence of God.
MORE TO COME…
There are two more sections to this posting that I am still working on. They are, “IF YOU DON’T UNDERSTAND GOD’S WAYS†and “OTHER MISC CONCERNSâ€. I figured this was enough to read and think about for now. I hope to have these done in the next couple of weeks.
February 8th, 2008 at 10:43 pm
“I just cannot wrap my mind around how someone could not KNOW there is a God when they look at what’s around them. For me… this is all the proof I need.”
Thats not proof of god, thats just proof that you’re an idiot. As far as your argument that everything is just “too perfect”, what about all the billions of other planets in the universe that can’t even sustain life? Why would your god waste so much time and energy into things are so useless?
“You are sold on the fact that a few atoms collided and presto… this amazing earth was formed.”
As opposed to your idea that a bearded dude yelled SHAZAM!!! and everything was created?(see, we can minimize your thinking too)
“why do you believe that George Washington was the first President of the United States? Where you alive to see him get sworn in? No. You accept history books as your proof.”
We actually have MANY primary sources that are still in good condition that document it. Your bible is just the collected ranting of people who didn’t have anything else to explain the universe around them.
“We know he had a human body because there are thousands of people who were documented walking with him, touching him, talking to him, asking him questions, listening to him teach, eating with him, crying with him, sleeping beside him, and seeing him bleed.”
Most people acknowledge there was a guy named jesus that preached. There’s nothing holy about him, it doesnt matter how many times you pull something from the bible, which was written by man.
“They are creation, scripture, and Jesus. I’m sure most of you have heard these points “regurgitated a thousand times beforeâ€, but I’d like you to bear with me.”
Thanks, you just made it a thousand and one.
February 8th, 2008 at 10:59 pm
Without any time spent scouring the internet or looking in books or anything, I will address your arguments for God.
1. Creation
“but the question is not how this works but rather how something this incredible was created.”
Created? That’s a loaded term already. Arguing from creation doesn’t work, because we can use another explanation. Perhaps it was atoms. Or strings. Or Xenu. Which one is more likely? Can’t say, but that is in no way an argument for anything besides “we can’t say”. Of course the difference between many of us here and you is put forth here:
“I can not believe that atoms united and created this masterpiece.”
I think the world is a nice place, but that doesn’t logically imply anything about it’s coming about.
2. The Bible
You should know how this would turn out. Evidence for God is in the Bible? That series of books, psalms, and literature put together by a bunch of Jews a long time ago, with more books, letters, and such added on by a council of bishops later, translated, and given to us? That, for that matter, may or may not reflect reality any better than a novel, that was perhaps, you know, affected by lore, cultural traditions, family beliefs, anything else?
You ask how we can doubt the Bible and yet believe in any historical figure at all (Washington is your example). (1) In an “ultimate” sense, we are not 100% justified in believing Washington exists. But that’s not really what I’m addressing here, so (2) there is much more that documents Washington than Moses’ interaction with God. What is there besides the Bible? (3) When it comes to verifying history, some claims are easier to accept with a given amount of evidence than others. That a certain person was alive, okay. That giant flying tortoises roamed the earth? Gonna need a little more. That an omnipotent being talked to Moses on Mount Sinai, that he passed down laws, struck down every Egyptian firstborn, and so on? I expect something more, and that’s a gross understatement. Of course you already know that that’s my response. But you see, when making decisions that alter lives and the world in such a way as religion can, I don’t take evidence lightly.
3. Jesus
“We know he had a human body because there are thousands of people who were documented walking with him, touching him, talking to him, asking him questions, listening to him teach, eating with him, crying with him, sleeping beside him, and seeing him bleed.”
Really? Thousands? How many sources you got for that? The Bible is one, and I’ve covered that. What else…there’s Josephus. He says that Jesus was the Christ, and converted a bunch of Jews. Well, Messianism was big in the day, and that still doesn’t tell us much besides very little. Any other historical record on Jesus?
February 8th, 2008 at 11:00 pm
I was beaten to the punch, but when stuff like this comes up again and again, that’s just how it goes.
February 9th, 2008 at 9:50 am
Irishthunder… Out of all those involved in this site, you are the one that I have the most sorrow for. Why are you so angry and filled with hate? I have twice told you that I come in peace. Step back and look at my motive for doing this. The only reason is because I do not want to see ANYONE spend eternity in hell… period. Even though you continue to insult me (i.e. calling me an idiot) I will not retaliate. However, I will disregard anything you have to say from this point forward. The only thing I can do for you is pray that you will accept the truth before your judgement day.
February 9th, 2008 at 11:10 am
So….basically you don’t like what I say, whether you find it insulting or you just don’t have any response besides “the bible says so, so it must be true”. By the way, it doesn’t matter if you “come in peace”, you have consistently insulted the intelligence of anyone who hasn’t excepted your way of thought, I’m just returning the favor.
February 9th, 2008 at 4:47 pm
Irishthunder:
“The only reason is because I do not want to see ANYONE spend eternity in hell… period.”
1) Why are you then worshipping a creature that has created such a place?
2) Do you consider eternal pain for not believing in something invisible a fair punishment?
Please answer.
February 9th, 2008 at 10:50 pm
Corso, I hope your posing those questions to kevin, because they aren’t applicable to me.
February 10th, 2008 at 5:35 am
Oups sorry .. kevin of course
February 10th, 2008 at 8:04 pm
“The bible is everything to the Christian. This is where we get all of our beliefs and values.”
Really? Although i was originally raised with some ‘christian’ upbringing (influence) I would certainly say that my PARENTS taught me right from wrong and how to be a good person: lessons that have no bearing from the bible and its muddled up moral message. There are a GREAT deal of christians with extremely odious morals, many of whom i knew personally.
As for your belief in Jesus as being divine, please understand that the gospels of the bible were the SELECTED ones. And even between the 4 of them they are at odds with each other (I forget which one doesnt even mention the virgin birth - which incidentally is common to many earlier polytheistic/pagan religions preceeding christianity) while one of the apocryphal gospels disputes his divinity altogether!
You really should study the history of your religion and its texts (as i did, taught by a priest at college level no less) to get a better understanding of what was largely a politically formulated document meant to cast jesus in the light of a messiah, simply by appearing to fulfil some pre-known old testament ‘prophecies’. Otherwise you are just taking one persons word, which when it comes to matters as ‘deep’ as a belief system to which you case your entire life upon, isnt really a smart thing to do.
Its actually intellectually lazy.
February 11th, 2008 at 1:48 pm
Jayman… I don’t want to start addressing individual responses. I would rather give a more broad view point into Christianity. However, I feel compelled to discuss your points.
I don’t want to discount your point that some parents do a good job at teaching right from wrong, but the sad truth is that not all parents take the time to teach their children, and not all parents set a good example for their children either. We all know too many parents that fall into this catagory. This is the big difference between lessons taught and lived by parents and lessons taught and lived by Jesus. Jesus was righteous in every way and he not only taught us to be righteous, he showed us that it’s possible to live righteous lives. You mentioned that your parents taught you lessons not taught in the bible. What were these lessons? To smile at people? To open the door for people? To say hello when someone says hello to you? To say please and thank you? Not to put your elbows on the table? Yes, you are correct that the bible does not teach us general manners and parents do. But the bible does teach us not to lie, cheat, steel, brag, envy, slander, etc. It also teaches us to use our talents and finances to help others, turn a cheek to those who attack us, pray for our enemies, and more. There are very few lessons parents teach us about morals that are not found in scripture. To your point about knowing Christians with odious morals, I couldn’t agree more. There are unfortunately a LOT of people who go to church, have been baptized, and take Jesus as their savior that continue to live a life of sin. They think going to church and calling themselves Christian gives them a “get out of jail free card” to do whatever they want. Unfortunately, these people are wrong and they give Christianity a bad name. Being a Christian means that we are to live a “christ-like” life. People should look at us and see us as individuals who live right. There are many of us that do, but many don’t. However, I do want to acknowledge that we aren’t perfect people either. Although I think most who personally know me would tell you that I’m a good/obedient Christian. However, I still make mistakes. The beautiful thing is that God still loves us. He forgives those who place their faith in him and take his son as their savior.
To your point about the four gospals of the bible being SELECTED (Matthew, Mark, Luke, John) you are correct. There were other books written by people of the time that were not included in the bible. That is because when the bible was assembled the scholars of the time heavily scrutenized all the books to make sure they were accurate. The four books that were included were considered to be the only accurate gospels worthy of being included in the bible. And if you truly read them you would clearly see they are NOT at odds with each other. In fact, when you read them you almost feel like it’s deja vu because many of the events are the same. Just because one of the books doesn’t mention the virgin birth doesn’t mean it conflicts. If it said he was not born from a virgin, then it would conflict.
To your last point, I’ve spent more time studying the bible’s contents and origin than you think. In fact, if all you’re going on is what some college professor who used to be a priest told you, I would say you are the one that needs to spend more time studying this. There are several sceptics who feel that the bible was manipulated to make us believe. However, there is no proof or evidence that would indicate it was fabricated. In my next response I will explain reasons why the bible is more trustworthy than most historical documents.
February 11th, 2008 at 3:05 pm
Hello Kevin,
I’ve read your posts and I am impressed with how you weather harsh criticism and barbed comments. You spirit of engagement is admirable. However, I remain unconvinced. While I find there are compelling arguments for the existence of some kind of ‘God’, the ones you present either rely on the er…, reliability of the Bible or don’t prove the existence of the Christian God.
Before critiquing your ‘Bible’ and ‘Jesus’ proofs for God’s existence, I will read your forthcoming post. Instead, I will focus on your first argument, ‘creation’; properly known as the Kalam Cosmological Argument. Here it is as a formal argument:
The first issue I have with this argument is premise 1: “Everything that has a beginning of its existence has a cause of its existence.” The problem is time. Time came into existence congruently with the rest of the universe and the other three dimensions we are familiar with. Since time was nonexistent, there was no ‘before’ the universe. Nothingness is unchanging. Thus the first moment cannot have a temporal cause. Thus time is something that has a beginning, but has no cause.
Premise 2 also suffers from a flaw. It is entirely possible that time is infinite in the past. There is no reason to logically preclude this possibility. The Big Bang may have been caused by a preceding Big Crunch and so forth. Thus the universe may have no beginning.
Finally, premise 4 is surprisingly weak. All this argument, if legitimate, would prove is that the universe has a temporal cause and we label that cause ‘God’. You’d still have to prove that God has any powers beyond causing the universe, that God has a plan, that God cares about humans, that God even knows about humans, much less that God did all those things in the Bible (or Koran, Torah, etc.). Heck, it doesn’t even prove the uniqueness of God. It is logically possible for the universe to have multiple causes.
The Modal Cosmological argument overcomes the problems the Kalam version has with respect to premises 1 and 2, but still suffers from failing to prove anything about the nature of God outside of God’s omnificence. I await your proof of the trustworthiness of the Bible.
February 11th, 2008 at 3:34 pm
Corso… Your first question is, why do I worship God since he created hell? The short answer to your question is, since hell would be empty if everyone would pledge their faith in the Lord, then why would I care if God created hell? This seems to be a common issue with many of you. You blame God for death and punishment instead of realizing it’s our fault. Here’s the truth, nobody would go to hell if they pledged their faith in the Lord. So, whose fault is it that people have to suffer? OUR OWN!!!! Friends, God could not make it any easier for us to be saved. All we have to do is have faith, repent, and be baptized. None of these requirements are inhumane, degrading, cost money, involve pain, or have any other negative consequences for us. God has basically gift-wrapped salvation for us and laid it in front of us. I can’t blame God if someone does not accept this GIFT. Especially after considering everything he has done to make this gift possible (sending his only son who lived a perfect live to die in our place).
I think maybe the only way to get you to understand how gracious God really is might be to put you in his shoes. Let’s say you have an only child who is perfect. He does every single thing you have ever asked him to do. You love him with all of your heart. Next door there is a little boy who is always in trouble. He’s always cussing you, vandalizing your property, steeling your things, hurting other kids, lying, cheating, etc. If you knew that by letting him kill your son, he could live in heaven forever, would you let him do it? I seriously doubt any of us (including me) could let that happen. God faced this same situation, but despite of our denying and disobeying him, he actually let his son die in our place. Can you even start to imagine how much he must love us if he could do this? Now, seeing the price Jesus paid for our salvation and how easy God makes it for us to be saved, how could you blame God for those who are too stubborn to take this gift?
Your second questions is, “Do you consider eternal pain for not believing in something invisible a fair punishment?†As I said before, I don’t want to see anyone go to hell. That’s why I’m here. As far as me believing if it’s fair punishment or not, I can only say that I trust God’s judgment. Everyone will be judged by God when they die. If God looks at someone’s life and feels the individual deserves hell, than I trust him.
February 11th, 2008 at 3:49 pm
1) God created Hell
2) God knew at creation that some of his created beings will suffer it eternally
3) God has the power to unconditionally save all his creation yet chooses not to
How is God not responsible again? You may not be able to blame God for Hell, but if your mythology turns out to be correct, I certainly can. More importantly why does God not make salvation unconditional and universal? Does God not have the power or knowledge? Does God not love his creation enough? A being who is not omnibenevolent, omniscient, and omnipotent may not be worthy of worship.
False analogy. A parent is not omnipotent, omniscient, nor omnibenevolent. If I were properly in God’s shoes, I’d use my power first to straighten the little brat out and second, to ensure his eternal bliss. No death needed.
February 11th, 2008 at 4:06 pm
you’ve done a nice job of saying we should be nice and friendly to each other, which is something I completely agree with. And wether or not Jesus told people to be nice to each other it up for debate, but I agree with it once more.
However, there is no true basis for either Jesus’ divinity, nor for an intervening god. It’s like Sid said above, the only two acceptable options are Agnosticism or Deism, but that’s it. There is no reliable proof, or even a possibility for any other option.
The universe exists, either it formed itself, or was created by some extra-logical deity. It’s one of those two, but as soon as start about the Christian God, you hit far to many scientific, logical and phylosophical roadblocks.
February 11th, 2008 at 5:16 pm
Sid… I can’t spend much more time right now writing about this. But I did want to let you know I read your comments and appreciate your willingness to keep this discussion civil as well. It’s refreshing. As far as your first post on creation, we could bat this ball back and forth all day and I don’t think we’d get anywhere. Your points are interesting, but they don’t make me think otherwise. I’ve made my points and they don’t make you think otherwise. I think we’ve reached a gridlock on this one.
As far as your second post goes, I see your point. Maybe the most humane way would be to use your power to straighten him out. The problem is that if you did this with him, you would take away his ability to make decisions and turn him into a robot. This is why God created us the way he did. He didn’t want to make little robots that can’t make any decisions on their own. He wants us to be able to make the decision to live for him.
February 11th, 2008 at 5:58 pm
Alcari… You are right. Either earth created itself or there is a God who created it. There are no other options. I hope the points I made earlier made it clear that the later choice is the only realistic option. However, you seem to have trouble accepting a Christian God. Why? This is concerning to me. Do you not believe that a man named Jesus existed? Or do you not believe he was divine?. Or is there another reason? I’m curious to know your reasoning. If you believe God is our creator, this is GREAT! You are half way there! However, this is not enough for your salvation. The reason is because it would mean that you are relying on your own good deeds alone. God clearly tells us in scripture that sin equals hell and no amount of good deeds can overcome this. Someone has already paid the price of your sin. He was beaten, humiliated, and crucified for you. He stood in front of you and took your punishment. All he asks in return is that you acknowledge the fact that he did so. That’s it. There are a few verses in the bible that make this very clear. They are:
This verse tells us that God wants all of us to be saved. Even you. Regardless of what you’ve done. It also acknowledges that Jesus gave his life for you.
1 Timothy 2:3-6 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, [4] who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. [5] For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, [6] who gave himself as a ransom for all men…
This tells us that it is only by God’s grace that we can be saved, not by our good works alone.
Ephesians 2:8-9 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith — and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God — not by works, so that no one can boast.
These verses all discuss the importance of accept Christ. They clearly tell us that just accepting God doesn’t result in salvation. We must accept Christ as our savior.
John 3:16-18, 36 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. [18] Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son….
John 14:6 Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.â€
1 John 5:11-12 And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. [12] He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life.
February 11th, 2008 at 6:44 pm
“That is because when the bible was assembled the scholars of the time heavily scrutenized all the books to make sure they were accurate. The four books that were included were considered to be the only accurate gospels worthy of being included in the bible. And if you truly read them you would clearly see they are NOT at odds with each other. In fact, when you read them you almost feel like it’s deja vu because many of the events are the same. Just because one of the books doesn’t mention the virgin birth doesn’t mean it conflicts. If it said he was not born from a virgin, then it would conflict.”
There is a lot of evidence that the bible was manipulated to suit certain aims and make christianity more palatable to the gentiles (and eventually Romans) of the time.
And there ARE significant variances between the gospels regarding such critical points as Jesus’ ressurection. Given that the earliest of the gospels wasnt written down until about 35 years after Jesus’ death (having been passed on exclusively in the oral tradition until then) I think its fairly safe to say that the old ‘chinese whispers’ effect has come into play!
Sure, I believe that a man called Jesus lived back then, but I dont believe he was divine, nor do I take much of what the gospels say about him as even a marginally historical account of his life.
February 11th, 2008 at 7:35 pm
“Alcari… You are right. Either earth created itself or there is a God who created it. There are no other options. I hope the points I made earlier made it clear that the later choice is the only realistic option. However, you seem to have trouble accepting a Christian God. Why? This is concerning to me. Do you not believe that a man named Jesus existed? Or do you not believe he was divine?. Or is there another reason? I’m curious to know your reasoning. If you believe God is our creator, this is GREAT! You are half way there!”
At least a good part of the reason we disagree with you is because there are many personal assumptions in your statements like the one above, and those won’t get you anywhere in what is supposed to be an objective argument. Starting with, “Either earth created itself or there is a God who created it,” I’m going to assume you meant “universe” instead of earth, because if not then this is to simple to even respond to. Even if you meant universe, though, the alternatives are either self-creation or God? How about god, which is to say a god, some other god, many gods? If you ask where they came from I simply say the same place as your God. How about a force we typically call “nature,” or the Force? Perhaps God is just a name for some abstract creative energy? Or what about the eternal existence of the universe? I have yet to see a better way of proving or denying it than any proof of a creator, objectively speaking. To fix these problems we must reduce your argument to “either the universe was not made by something else or it was made by something else.” But that doesn’t say much of anything, and it’s not something we can really prove either way in any effective manner. I fail to see how a being such as your God is any more believable than any of my above alternatives. Just because he would be an explanation that seems to cover all the bases does not make it an argument for anything. There is such a thing as saying, “We cannot determine which it is with certainty.”
From there you go from not only God with a capital G but to the Christian God. How do you justify this?
Then you go to such things as Jesus’ being divine, and yet within your own religion people differ on these things. Why couldn’t God exist and Jesus not be divine (see: Arianism)?
Where then do these things come from that you have in your arguments? I would assume they are matters of personal belief and conviction. But if that is so, don’t expect them to override any one else’s personal beliefs/convictions, since they’re all on the same field.
February 12th, 2008 at 4:12 am
Thanks snurp, that’s exactly what I said, but it was taken wholly out of it’s proper meaning.
And why should I have to explain why I don’t believe in the christian God? Why don’t you believe in Thor, Zeus, Allah and the Invisible Pink Unicorn?
I am not the one who needs to deliver proof, you are the one who needs to prove, depite vast ammounts of evidence to the contrary, that there in fact is, or is a need for, the christian God. The same goes for the divinity of Jesus and.
May 9th, 2008 at 12:39 pm
Kevin came full throttle into this forum assuming atheists know nothing about christianity. I think it is safe to say that Kevin knows nothing of astronomy, time, and how the natural world works. He thinks he does, which is his greatest vulnerability to religion. Kevin has a God complex. He thinks he knows everything isn’t even aware of what science can explain. Ignorant, ignorant, ignorant.
In my eyes it is he who is missing out, and that just makes me frustrated.
The universe makes perfect sense if you investigate the right resources. Evolution of species, and loosely using the term evolution here, of galaxies makes perfect sense if you are taught.
Atheists are self taught really, you don’t get training at school for ‘how the universe works’, but it’s out there.
I’m on the side that the big bang is nothing more than a white hole. There should be plenty of these born from our universe, so I believe we are but one of many universes, occasionally interacting when unimaginable amounts of matter come together.
I’m also aware that my awareness changes over time, and I might have a different thought process of how it all works, but this will have nothing to do with what is available as knowledge now or 2000 years ago *have to laugh, sorry*, it will be from the information I gather in the future, by other people with more expertise than I.
I fuckin’ love life.
May 9th, 2008 at 12:56 pm
And just something for the atheists, even the bible makes sense if you investigate mushroom cults. I’ve been reading John Allegro ‘Sacred Mushroom and the Cross’. Brilliant.
July 8th, 2008 at 12:53 pm
Kevin, if you’re still checking this, try this on:
The Bible is a collection of stories of how humans have come to terms with self-consciousness. Becoming aware of our own mortality must have been overwelhming. Creating a powerful being to watch over us was a logical coping mechanism. Some of the stories can be verified through archeaology, but not the parts about the angels and voices. Saying that is fact, in the modern world, is not helpful. It diminishes the rest of the Bible, the parts we could have a real conversation about like, “thou shalt not kill”, what’s that all about, let’s talk.
Religion is evolving, it always has been, but since we are using 2000 year old scripts, it seems to be a bit behind the curve at the moment. As George Carlin pointed out, The Three Little Pigs is a story with a message too. Not a very sophisticated one. We know that there aren’t talking pigs, but we still tell our kids this story and talk about the message. Jesus told the story (or the Bible tells the story of a guy named Jesus telling a story) of the slaves who were given talents (money). We can use that story today to start a discussion about investing with a consciousness.
I’d rather do that than attempt to defend something that might have made sense 3,000 years ago, but just doesn’t work today.
July 12th, 2008 at 4:04 pm
Kevin…trying not to be too unkind. But you like all other theists have been totally brainwashed into believing a rediculous 2000 year old book written by bronze-aged uneducated nomads who knew nothing about science and invented their own history of the universe. No the Earth didn’t make itself. Evolution made the Earth as it did the entire universe. There are many things that modern science can not explain. That doesn’t mean that we should invent an explanation. You are a very gullable person Kevin.
July 25th, 2008 at 8:01 am
“uneducated” ?? what university would you like them to have attended? Currently we have theories regarding the history of the universe, that is, we “invented” them. When something can’t be explained, we invent an explanation, then we test it and refine it. Granted Christianity is more resistant to refinement than I would like, but it has changed over the centuries. Kevin’s point of view is not the only one. I hope people 2,000 years from now look back with more compassion on our ignorance and attempt to understand how we were dealing with the knowledge we had available, instead of dismissing everything we wrote because we were fiber-optic-aged suburbanites.
“Evolution made the Earth”? are you sure about that?
April 14th, 2009 at 10:53 pm
Comment on Kevin’s explanation of the bible scriptures
My question to Kevin is this.
If God is the all supreme perfect being! why does he need anything from us? to even suggest that he does put’s a lot of doubt in my mind of this supreme being idea!
What’s the point! Why does a supreme being need for anything.
I just don’t get it. the idea of a supreme being means that they don’t need nor require anything from anyone or anything.
That being said, it seems that for a being like this to even exist! there needs to be a place for it to exist. like in our minds. Which to me makes this all false and just that. a belief, with nothing based in solid matter, energy or fact.
April 15th, 2009 at 6:14 pm
“a belief, with nothing based in solid matter, energy or fact.”
I wonder what Mr George Carlin is now? any of the above.
“If God is the all supreme perfect being! why does he need anything from us? to even suggest that he does put’s a lot of doubt in my mind of this supreme being idea!”
Ron, I want to help you and my bible helps in answering your question… All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
Jesus came to save us from our sins and show us a way that is righteous, by offering us His way in which we should build our life upon Gods plan of salvation. You can be like Mr Carlin and live your life as such but such is not pleasing unto our Father and to me it is fruitless. Our Father has shown and offered Himself even unto death just like Mr Carlin unto his ways seems right-so be it. The pwg will be attacking me for the things i talk about but i can respect that for my-Our Father has told me of such things i should expect. Our Father does care just like the g-pa cares for his g-daughters but the difference is that our Father cares and hurts for what we have lost for what we have rejected. This life we live -we live for self or we live for Him. Can you respect the things i talk about? or will you stand and do the things of Mr Carlin? Jesus is the true vine and we are the branches within this vine. Why does God need us because ultimately He wants us to bringeth forth much fruit: for without Jesus, the true vine, ye can do nothing.
I apologize if i failed to answer your question but if a brother or sister should read this i hope it will be a blessing to them.
God Bless
April 15th, 2009 at 6:28 pm
Ron? God is extremely personal; as a matter of fact He is love and He does have feelings, He created His creatures to love them and for them to love Him in return.
Also, if one WANTS to find God they will! A person has to put effort into finding God. They are not supposed to take God lightly, especially if they are going to spend eternity with Him.
Jeremiah 29:13
You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart.
Hebrews 12:16
Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright.
Hebrews 12:15-17 (in Context) Hebrews 12 (Whole
If one wants to be an atheist they are “FREE” to be one. But if one is searching, seriously searching for a God of love they would find Him!
This author explains some of it :-
“Untainted Humans
The biblical text seeks not to solve the mystery of the existence of humans but rather to deepen it by directly connecting their origin to God. That God created us means that we are not accident– that we are not just the end product of mindless natural law. We are the result of divine reflection, analysis, and the expression of divine freedom, power, and love. Such divine intentionality places a high value on the human race and indissolubly binds us to God in a Creator-creature relationship. At its deepest level creation in the image of God means precisely that we can have fellowship with Him.”
” Fellowship with God.
As already indicated, the plurality of persons within the Godhead unveils the fact that God is social and that consequently fellowship is part of His essence. Being created in the image of God defines humans as social beings existing in fellowship with others. The first social relationship that Adam established was with God. The Creator breathed the breath of life into his nostrils, and the first man became a living being. This was life, but not divine life, as if Adam were now participating in the very life of God. Rather it was created life. When Adam opened his eyes, his brain registered its first image, that of God. Two persons looked at each other in the Garden of Eden, and as a result they were bound to each other in the most glorious fellowship that humans could ever have.
Also Eve’s first social interaction was not with Adam, but with God. He intentionally planned it that way. The Creator put Adam to sleep not because He did not want Adam to feel pain during the “surgery,” but in order for Eve to enjoy the same privilege he had, namely to experience fellowship with God before having it with Adam. The enjoyment of union with God defined humans as unique, setting them apart from the rest of the created world. They found their greatest joy in life in an existence characterized by unhindered fellowship with the Lord.” …
“Freedom of will and action.
When God created humans, He endowed them with freedom, a fact revealed in the narrative in several ways. First , fellowship presupposes freedom. Union with God does not take place outside the realm of human history—that is, in some mystical sphere that erases self- consciousness. Instead, union with God is fellowship with Him in our mode of existence as creatures, and it presupposes willingness on the part of the humans to participate in it . Otherwise there is no freedom. Second, fellowship with other humans also presupposes that same type of freedom by which we not only interact with them but also accept and love them.”
… “Possibly the most important passage supporting the fact that God created humans free is Genesis 2:16,17: “You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die.” Eating is an instinctive response to a build-in need in our being that does not require freedom. Even telling humans what to eat is not necessarily an endowment of freedom. The idea of freedom surfaces in all it’s power and beauty when God commands them not to eat from a tree. The command itself was meaningful only in the context of the freedom of individuals to obey or not to obey it. Otherwise, why would it be necessary to give a command? Why not make abstention from eating from that particular tree an instinctive response, a mechanical action?
But what kind of freedom gives you the option only to choose death? Could not the threat of death become an enslaving power that would deprive humans of freedom to act ? In order to explore the true implications of those questions, we need to approach them from the angle of the choices available to humans. It is difficult to think of a created being as a free agent. For obvious reasons God brought Adam and Eve into existence without their free consent. God in His freedom and sovereignty decided and proceeded to create them. Their freedom emerged after their creation in the form of the possibility of a choice. The choices at the disposal of Adam and Eve were not many—they had only two.
We find both of the choices that they confronted in the text we quoted above. A superficial reading may give the impression that the choices were either to eat or not to eat from the tree. But they were not really about eating although it did involve that. The narrative takes us to the very depth of the nature of human freedom and establishes that such freedom has to do with the most fundamental question a creature has to address— that of choosing life or death. The biblical writer is not telling us that the universe possesses two eternal antagonistic forces, namely the power of God as life and the power of someone or something else as death, and that we can select between them. The issues are much more complex.
Let me suggest for your consideration that what the text establishes is that ONLY GOD IS, and that apart from Him there is nothing else,but between being with God and not being. This makes absolute sense within the flow of the narrative.
As already indicated, Adam and Eve came into being without giving them freedom to choose to be created or not. That was a logical impossibility. But now the Creator did offer them the freedom to choose existence or nonexistence, that is to say, to freely accept the gift of life or to go back to nothingness. God offered the options in the firm command, because the creator had a preference. He wanted them to select life, and therefore He emphasized as strongly as possible that if they opted for death He would honor their choice and that they would “surely die.”
Obviously , rejecting God’s gift of life would be to spurn Him, an act of rebellion, but He was willing to accept their decision. Since God’s intentions for humans was positive, it is difficult to imagine that Adam and Eve would have seriously considered the possibility of rejecting life. But the option was there—otherwise God would have enslaved them to live on a planet for ever without their consent. …”
The whole chapter is in the following book . I got the above from chapter 3. “A Race Is Fallen”:-
http://books.google.com/books?id=KOnRQ3hM8RYC
Also Ron, hell does not exist yet and when it comes about it will not exist for eternity (that teaching scares a lot of people and it simply is not true).Hell will be temporary and God does not want any human to “perish” but if they choose to not want to be with Him , He will grant them their wish.
April 15th, 2009 at 10:03 pm
Ally, enough already with your lengthy copying and pasting. Your god is a myth, plain and simple. Get out of the house, get with the modern world, and read a biology textbook.
Religion is ridiculous.
April 16th, 2009 at 8:30 pm
Shalom Macachisadec to everyone, Ally, let’s do the “copy & paste” *dance*, because i too like to do both, hmmm.
in all meaningful thought i was listening to Dr. R.C. Sproul on the radio last night and he mentioned “the silent scream”. i know this pain that burns in me and also listening to skeptoid(?) in his way of thinking and trying to understand thus such thinking is far from me which is un-understandable and only to be understood in Jesus Christ My Lord and Saviour. The Apostle Paul in relation, reading his thoughts and feelings say’s Romans 8:22-27, vs 22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. & vs 23 Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know what to pray for as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words.
I guess these “silent screams” that in away as stated are too deep for words which i find it difficult to express to you all. but the core of it would be that if hearing the silent screams and cry and pray. With all thoughts by casting all your care upon him; for he careth for you, my brothers and sisters.
The Silent screams and the death that is upon them that delivers the death of those silent screams. Jesus has put upon the sword you say that is to be torn apart and shall deliver the death of a brother a father the child and raise against the parents all deliver the silence screams that world values as nothing as in nonsense yet supported upon the sword of truth which is in us. may our Holy spirit that is in us continue to groan and travails so that we can continue in prayer within our hearts with our Fathers will be done. “Families will be torn apart because of Jesus.” Brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death.
April 17th, 2009 at 5:27 pm
I’m so glad that the hyrocket-bot isn’t on my team.
(And that its vengeful jerk of a god doesn’t exist.)
Religion is a disease of the mind. Inoculate against it with reason.
April 19th, 2009 at 8:57 pm
Korgan, thank you for putting me in a gaiety mood and praise my Lord and Saviour for you and appreciate the fundamental difference between us.
Korgan, your post 68 proves that last verse i used, which was taken from another page here. the last verse is from Matthew 10:21 and i have included verse 22 to get the truth you have made to me And the brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against [their] parents, and cause them to be put to death. And ye shall be hated of all [men] for my name’s sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.
Someone here used this verse against us Christians to make their point. But he failed to put it in context, leaving verse 22 out. Your post 68 has proven this to be true. let me put this another way.
Lets say as you are, accepted Jesus Christ as your Lord and Saviour and become like me. You’re a new creature as stated in 2COR5:17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come. because you are saved you preach the truth in Jesus name for you know He is God and has set you free and you see this verse in your heart For the word of God [is] quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and [is] a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
but you tell others about the these things you know - you will experience this Matt 10:21, for the sword of men is different from the Sword of God. The sword of men shall deliver up the brother to death. Knowing this death is nothing compared to the saving power from our sins putting you in the presence of our Holy God.
“God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved”
Korgan, thanks and if anyone would put their name in place of Korgan, this Matt 21 and 22 will resonate in the very truth that Jesus is God and has come to save us from our sins by Him alone and not of any works we can do bring us into paradise. repent and see His the sword He offers is LIFE.
In Psalm 25:5 let it be in us my brothers and sister, that Jesus is our Lord and Saviour which we bow before the cross of His sacrifice-looking to Him alone as the author and finisher of our faith…
Lead me in your truth and teach me, for you are the God of my salvation; for you I wait all the day long.
April 20th, 2009 at 7:46 am
hyrocket, FUCK OFF WITH YOUR ANNOYING SPEWING OF YOUR BULLSHIT SCRIPTURE AND GO AWAY.
May 15th, 2009 at 3:12 pm
Who cares what this guy says. So he believes in a fairy tale. Doesn;t change my way of thinking. Doesn’t make him a douche-bag. He is just another human entitled to his opinion. Is it annoying? YES. But this is the typical “holier than thou” attitutude that I have come to expect from religious fanatics. They insist that they are not being that way, but like them believing in fairy tales, they cannot see the truth. I am a good person. I don’t need stories or an “invisible man” in the sky to tell me that I am not. We will never ever convince the “religioulus” that there is no Invisible being controlling the universe… EVER. We are going up against thousands of years of BS, which these people eat up every word of. Funny, they wouldn’t beleive something a stranger on the street told them as truth without doubting it, but they beleive people from thousands of years ago writing stories who they have never seen, met, or evenspoke the same language as, as the ultimate truth. OF COURSE THEY ARE FLAWED. That is why they need their religion to feel good about themselves again.
January 14th, 2010 at 9:55 pm
wow guys, you dont have to be religious or Christian to show some respect.
i appreciate the information above, kevin :)
as for the nonbelievers, i totally undestand your point of views. that’s why I’m not gonna argue.
God will reveal Himself to the non believers eventually. just embrace his love.
January 14th, 2010 at 11:53 pm
Re 72, love like this?:
http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/cruelty/nt_list.html
What a fucking ASSHOLE your god would be, if it actually existed. Glad it doesn’t.
Religion is ridiculous.