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	<title>Comments on: American&#8211;Land Of The Free, Home Of The &#8216;Morans&#8217;</title>
	<link>http://religiousfreaks.com/2008/02/18/american-land-of-the-free-home-of-the-morans/</link>
	<description>Have faith in yourself</description>
	<pubDate>Sun, 20 Jul 2008 18:43:18 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Hyrocket</title>
		<link>http://religiousfreaks.com/2008/02/18/american-land-of-the-free-home-of-the-morans/#comment-185500</link>
		<dc:creator>Hyrocket</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Jun 2008 04:43:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://religiousfreaks.com/2008/02/18/american-land-of-the-free-home-of-the-morans/#comment-185500</guid>
		<description>so sad.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>so sad.</p>
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		<title>By: Donut</title>
		<link>http://religiousfreaks.com/2008/02/18/american-land-of-the-free-home-of-the-morans/#comment-158849</link>
		<dc:creator>Donut</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 04 May 2008 18:18:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://religiousfreaks.com/2008/02/18/american-land-of-the-free-home-of-the-morans/#comment-158849</guid>
		<description>I agree with the general thrust of the article, but disagree with some of the details.

For one thing, the internet, in theory at least, could make people want to read more, and also generally has renewed interest in writing.  That said reading and writing are often bad is true, but at least it gets people to practice.

Also, I disagree that the problem is inherently a generational one, so much as that it is a created problem.  In other words, I have noticed that in the past 20-25 years, there has been a systematic effort put forth to not only discourage learning, but to elevate the status of the "common man" and that this effort has ironically been made by many people who belong in the so-called elite class they rail against, such as Rush Limbaugh.

If you can stomach it, watch/listen to them. Rush and his ilk have successfully gotten people to distrust information sources which are not propaganda sources.  They rail against universities, science, and educated politicians to create an atmosphere where no one will trust those sources because of their alleged bias.

The void created thus is then easily filled with propaganda  such as is found on the only "fair and balanced" TV news channel.  I have encountered more ignorance not from any one generation as much as I have from people who watch and listen to this skewed media which seldom bothers to fact check or correct errors.

I'm not saying this is the only problem, because as noted the ignorance problem persists across things like party lines, but I do find it created a fertile bed for the bounty crop of ignorance which we are now experiencing.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree with the general thrust of the article, but disagree with some of the details.</p>
<p>For one thing, the internet, in theory at least, could make people want to read more, and also generally has renewed interest in writing.  That said reading and writing are often bad is true, but at least it gets people to practice.</p>
<p>Also, I disagree that the problem is inherently a generational one, so much as that it is a created problem.  In other words, I have noticed that in the past 20-25 years, there has been a systematic effort put forth to not only discourage learning, but to elevate the status of the &#8220;common man&#8221; and that this effort has ironically been made by many people who belong in the so-called elite class they rail against, such as Rush Limbaugh.</p>
<p>If you can stomach it, watch/listen to them. Rush and his ilk have successfully gotten people to distrust information sources which are not propaganda sources.  They rail against universities, science, and educated politicians to create an atmosphere where no one will trust those sources because of their alleged bias.</p>
<p>The void created thus is then easily filled with propaganda  such as is found on the only &#8220;fair and balanced&#8221; TV news channel.  I have encountered more ignorance not from any one generation as much as I have from people who watch and listen to this skewed media which seldom bothers to fact check or correct errors.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m not saying this is the only problem, because as noted the ignorance problem persists across things like party lines, but I do find it created a fertile bed for the bounty crop of ignorance which we are now experiencing.</p>
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		<title>By: Andrew</title>
		<link>http://religiousfreaks.com/2008/02/18/american-land-of-the-free-home-of-the-morans/#comment-126371</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 Feb 2008 18:15:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://religiousfreaks.com/2008/02/18/american-land-of-the-free-home-of-the-morans/#comment-126371</guid>
		<description>I also have to disagree. My view is that the problem we have is that too many people don't vote at all -- most noticeably the poor.

Not that this solution is any better, but for me, I'd rather have mandatory voting than voting based on an exclusionary test.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I also have to disagree. My view is that the problem we have is that too many people don&#8217;t vote at all &#8212; most noticeably the poor.</p>
<p>Not that this solution is any better, but for me, I&#8217;d rather have mandatory voting than voting based on an exclusionary test.</p>
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		<title>By: sidfaiwu</title>
		<link>http://religiousfreaks.com/2008/02/18/american-land-of-the-free-home-of-the-morans/#comment-126355</link>
		<dc:creator>sidfaiwu</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 Feb 2008 16:30:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://religiousfreaks.com/2008/02/18/american-land-of-the-free-home-of-the-morans/#comment-126355</guid>
		<description>I have to disagree rather strongly, Blasphemaster.  Aside from the utter impracticality of creating such a meritocracy (who defines the standards?  How do we ensure that those setting the standards do not create them to be self-serving?  How are the weights determined?  Do we make exceptions for smart people who suffer a brain injury?  How often do we retest in case some people got smarter or dumber?  Etc.), I would object to disenfranchising any group based on what they believe, even if I disagree with it.  Additionally, doing so would only exacerbate Christians already over sensitive persecution complex.  Furthermore, &lt;em&gt;actual&lt;/em&gt; persecution would inevitably follow, since there is no reason for the secular intelligencia to create protections for these disenfranchised groups.  In many ways, the system of government you describe sounds an awful lot like the one in &lt;em&gt;1984&lt;/em&gt;, where the leaders always filled their ranks with the most intelligent and competent people regardless of background, and tried to eliminate all individual loyalty to religion (and loyalty to anything other than the government).

You also seem to preclude the possibility that one can be both intelligent and religious.  This equating of religion with stupidity is simply incorrect and is as insulting as when religionists equating atheism with immorality.  Atheists can (and often are) moral.  Similarly, religionists can be intelligent (and often &lt;em&gt;not&lt;/em&gt; idiots).  Making the assumption that they are all dumb also creates the danger of underestimating your advisories.

So, despite all the problems that result from unintelligence and irrational thinking, I will still fight for religinist's suffrage and idiot's suffrage.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have to disagree rather strongly, Blasphemaster.  Aside from the utter impracticality of creating such a meritocracy (who defines the standards?  How do we ensure that those setting the standards do not create them to be self-serving?  How are the weights determined?  Do we make exceptions for smart people who suffer a brain injury?  How often do we retest in case some people got smarter or dumber?  Etc.), I would object to disenfranchising any group based on what they believe, even if I disagree with it.  Additionally, doing so would only exacerbate Christians already over sensitive persecution complex.  Furthermore, <em>actual</em> persecution would inevitably follow, since there is no reason for the secular intelligencia to create protections for these disenfranchised groups.  In many ways, the system of government you describe sounds an awful lot like the one in <em>1984</em>, where the leaders always filled their ranks with the most intelligent and competent people regardless of background, and tried to eliminate all individual loyalty to religion (and loyalty to anything other than the government).</p>
<p>You also seem to preclude the possibility that one can be both intelligent and religious.  This equating of religion with stupidity is simply incorrect and is as insulting as when religionists equating atheism with immorality.  Atheists can (and often are) moral.  Similarly, religionists can be intelligent (and often <em>not</em> idiots).  Making the assumption that they are all dumb also creates the danger of underestimating your advisories.</p>
<p>So, despite all the problems that result from unintelligence and irrational thinking, I will still fight for religinist&#8217;s suffrage and idiot&#8217;s suffrage.</p>
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		<title>By: alcari</title>
		<link>http://religiousfreaks.com/2008/02/18/american-land-of-the-free-home-of-the-morans/#comment-126351</link>
		<dc:creator>alcari</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 Feb 2008 16:12:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://religiousfreaks.com/2008/02/18/american-land-of-the-free-home-of-the-morans/#comment-126351</guid>
		<description>Well, I'm all for a test before voting, but I would start by including a few questions about whatever the person is voting for.

Just cast your vote, then answer 5 short questions about the party/person/rule/law you're voting on. That will at least prevent people for something "that sounds neat" or someone who looks good.

Also, I wouldn't include anything about religion in my weight test. It would be about economy, foreign policy, general healthcare policy etc. Things that matter for the vote, I don't care about their religion, mathematical skill or whatever, as long as the voters are competant and know what they're doing.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, I&#8217;m all for a test before voting, but I would start by including a few questions about whatever the person is voting for.</p>
<p>Just cast your vote, then answer 5 short questions about the party/person/rule/law you&#8217;re voting on. That will at least prevent people for something &#8220;that sounds neat&#8221; or someone who looks good.</p>
<p>Also, I wouldn&#8217;t include anything about religion in my weight test. It would be about economy, foreign policy, general healthcare policy etc. Things that matter for the vote, I don&#8217;t care about their religion, mathematical skill or whatever, as long as the voters are competant and know what they&#8217;re doing.</p>
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		<title>By: Blasphemaster</title>
		<link>http://religiousfreaks.com/2008/02/18/american-land-of-the-free-home-of-the-morans/#comment-126341</link>
		<dc:creator>Blasphemaster</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 Feb 2008 15:36:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://religiousfreaks.com/2008/02/18/american-land-of-the-free-home-of-the-morans/#comment-126341</guid>
		<description>I feel that the problem is precisely that ANY US citizen 18 and older can vote regardless of their intellectual capacities, service to the country, and personal knowledge.  I would prefer to see a sort of national testing to determine how worthy someone is to make decisions regarding the selection of our nation's leadership, and given a certain value to their vote on a scale, rather than the current blanket value of 1.  Of course, if I designed such a scale, any belief in the supernatural would render someone at the bottom regardless of any competence.  Seriously, if you believe that you're going to live forever if you follow a set of antiquated rules and vehemently block any progress that clashes with these ideas, you shouldn't have a say in determining the course of a nation.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I feel that the problem is precisely that ANY US citizen 18 and older can vote regardless of their intellectual capacities, service to the country, and personal knowledge.  I would prefer to see a sort of national testing to determine how worthy someone is to make decisions regarding the selection of our nation&#8217;s leadership, and given a certain value to their vote on a scale, rather than the current blanket value of 1.  Of course, if I designed such a scale, any belief in the supernatural would render someone at the bottom regardless of any competence.  Seriously, if you believe that you&#8217;re going to live forever if you follow a set of antiquated rules and vehemently block any progress that clashes with these ideas, you shouldn&#8217;t have a say in determining the course of a nation.</p>
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		<title>By: irishthunder</title>
		<link>http://religiousfreaks.com/2008/02/18/american-land-of-the-free-home-of-the-morans/#comment-126220</link>
		<dc:creator>irishthunder</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 Feb 2008 01:51:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://religiousfreaks.com/2008/02/18/american-land-of-the-free-home-of-the-morans/#comment-126220</guid>
		<description>I'm with you andrew, education in America would be a joke, if it weren't so sad.  I spent 13 years learning how to take standardized tests, only to be diagnosed with ADHD IN COLLEGE.  It's getting worse every time school systems are forced to say creationism is as viable as evolution.  If i end up staying in America long enough to have children i will be homeschooling them.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m with you andrew, education in America would be a joke, if it weren&#8217;t so sad.  I spent 13 years learning how to take standardized tests, only to be diagnosed with ADHD IN COLLEGE.  It&#8217;s getting worse every time school systems are forced to say creationism is as viable as evolution.  If i end up staying in America long enough to have children i will be homeschooling them.</p>
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		<title>By: Andrew</title>
		<link>http://religiousfreaks.com/2008/02/18/american-land-of-the-free-home-of-the-morans/#comment-126207</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 Feb 2008 00:11:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://religiousfreaks.com/2008/02/18/american-land-of-the-free-home-of-the-morans/#comment-126207</guid>
		<description>I have a degree in Music Education, and another in Chemistry. I tried for 2 years to find a Band teaching job in my state, which turned out to be impossible, due to most districts failing their levies. During my job search, the only offer I got was from a rural district that wanted to pay me $19,000 per year to teach Chemistry and K-12 Music. I am now a Web Developer with a couple private Percussion students.

The US education system is, for the most part, in terrible shape.  There are a few good districts scattered about, but not many. Because teaching is a low paying job, you typically don't get the cream of the crop as teachers. Think back to high school. The kids you knew who got C grade averages are the next batch of teachers.

I was unhirable as a Band teacher because of my degree in Chemistry. Teachers can not negotiate salaries, as they are set by state and local laws. You have a chart with your education level as columns and years of experience as the rows. Because of my second degree I was in the "Bachelor's Plus" column, meaning I would be paid about the same as someone in the "Bachelor's" column with 5 years experience. Because of strained funding in most districts, this made me too expensive to hire as a new teacher. 3.6 GPA from a demanding school?  Not important. Desire and talent? Not important. Letters of recommendation from teachers, administrators, parents, and students from the school I did student teaching at? Not important. A lousy extra $2,300 a year to hire me? Denied.

I wrote an about this back in 2003 on my business partner's site here:
http://www.shawnolson.net/a/220/how-to-get-better-teachers.html
The statistics are a bit old, but they haven't changed much since then.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have a degree in Music Education, and another in Chemistry. I tried for 2 years to find a Band teaching job in my state, which turned out to be impossible, due to most districts failing their levies. During my job search, the only offer I got was from a rural district that wanted to pay me $19,000 per year to teach Chemistry and K-12 Music. I am now a Web Developer with a couple private Percussion students.</p>
<p>The US education system is, for the most part, in terrible shape.  There are a few good districts scattered about, but not many. Because teaching is a low paying job, you typically don&#8217;t get the cream of the crop as teachers. Think back to high school. The kids you knew who got C grade averages are the next batch of teachers.</p>
<p>I was unhirable as a Band teacher because of my degree in Chemistry. Teachers can not negotiate salaries, as they are set by state and local laws. You have a chart with your education level as columns and years of experience as the rows. Because of my second degree I was in the &#8220;Bachelor&#8217;s Plus&#8221; column, meaning I would be paid about the same as someone in the &#8220;Bachelor&#8217;s&#8221; column with 5 years experience. Because of strained funding in most districts, this made me too expensive to hire as a new teacher. 3.6 GPA from a demanding school?  Not important. Desire and talent? Not important. Letters of recommendation from teachers, administrators, parents, and students from the school I did student teaching at? Not important. A lousy extra $2,300 a year to hire me? Denied.</p>
<p>I wrote an about this back in 2003 on my business partner&#8217;s site here:<br />
<a href="http://www.shawnolson.net/a/220/how-to-get-better-teachers.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.shawnolson.net/a/220/how-to-get-better-teachers.html</a><br />
The statistics are a bit old, but they haven&#8217;t changed much since then.</p>
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		<title>By: alcari</title>
		<link>http://religiousfreaks.com/2008/02/18/american-land-of-the-free-home-of-the-morans/#comment-126203</link>
		<dc:creator>alcari</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 19 Feb 2008 23:50:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://religiousfreaks.com/2008/02/18/american-land-of-the-free-home-of-the-morans/#comment-126203</guid>
		<description>speak for yourself, I consider myself to be one the most eloquent persons alive. And I'm modest to ;)

back on topic though.
I don't even think the problem lies with TV, or lack of reading. The problem is that people just don't absorb any information, and aren't even trying to learn anything. 

I can't count how many thing I've learned here and there, from tv, wikipedia, games, random books, people and what-have-you (the english lanuage for one), I consider myself pretty all-round, knowing at least a bit of everything. Lacking such a broad basis of knowledge, and the will to get one, the situation is not going to change any time soon.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>speak for yourself, I consider myself to be one the most eloquent persons alive. And I&#8217;m modest to ;)</p>
<p>back on topic though.<br />
I don&#8217;t even think the problem lies with TV, or lack of reading. The problem is that people just don&#8217;t absorb any information, and aren&#8217;t even trying to learn anything. </p>
<p>I can&#8217;t count how many thing I&#8217;ve learned here and there, from tv, wikipedia, games, random books, people and what-have-you (the english lanuage for one), I consider myself pretty all-round, knowing at least a bit of everything. Lacking such a broad basis of knowledge, and the will to get one, the situation is not going to change any time soon.</p>
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		<title>By: Jayman</title>
		<link>http://religiousfreaks.com/2008/02/18/american-land-of-the-free-home-of-the-morans/#comment-126197</link>
		<dc:creator>Jayman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 19 Feb 2008 23:11:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://religiousfreaks.com/2008/02/18/american-land-of-the-free-home-of-the-morans/#comment-126197</guid>
		<description>But lets not forget that internet 'arguments' arent usually written by the worlds most eminent thinkers. Published books are more likely to be written by someone who knows what they are talking about. I say 'more likely' in the same way that net arguments arent known for their intellectual nature.

The net has succeeded in giving morons more of a voice, thats for sure.


New One:
You might have something there, but as someone who has lived in both the USA &#38; the UK as well as extensively travelled the world, in my experience, the pride-in-ignorance thing is running rampant in the US, notably more than in europe, australia etc. Its just scary that this is the same country with 'the finger on the button' in escence.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>But lets not forget that internet &#8216;arguments&#8217; arent usually written by the worlds most eminent thinkers. Published books are more likely to be written by someone who knows what they are talking about. I say &#8216;more likely&#8217; in the same way that net arguments arent known for their intellectual nature.</p>
<p>The net has succeeded in giving morons more of a voice, thats for sure.</p>
<p>New One:<br />
You might have something there, but as someone who has lived in both the USA &amp; the UK as well as extensively travelled the world, in my experience, the pride-in-ignorance thing is running rampant in the US, notably more than in europe, australia etc. Its just scary that this is the same country with &#8216;the finger on the button&#8217; in escence.</p>
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