Today 800 buses, all across the UK, will hit the streets promoting Atheism. The project, known simply as The Atheist Bus Campaign, was the brainchild of 28-year-old TV comedy writer Ariane Sherine. The campaign has been a phenomenal success and has garnered the unbridled support of Richard Dawkins.
I’d like to be the first one here to congratulate Ariane on her efforts and I look forward to the ensuing advertising war as the Christians gear up for battle. No matter what happens, it’ll be good for the economy ;)
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I like that they use the modifier “probably.” It prevents them from sounding as self-righteous as the believers.
Holy sweet merciful monkey christ! That is the hottest god damned Atheist I have ever seen, I would follow her anywhere. I would be willing to bet that if she started hitting on Christian men and women, she could convert most of the known world to rational thinking in a day. Hmmmm, Health Care and non-religious women…. minus the weather and terrible food… England here I come!
I wish I had boobs. :(
I’ve often wished that, but my girlfriend tells me she’d break up with me if I got boobs bigger than her’s. :(
I think that was probably the most adult and respectful conversation between a believer and a non-believer I have ever seen. That is encouraging, although I doubt we would see that on this side of the pond.
I don’t get the “probably means they aren’t atheist” point though. I am an atheist. I personally believe there is no god. This is for a whole stack of reasons, but chiefly because there is not one single shred of credible evidence that I have ever seen. However, I acknowledge that there is a chance I am wrong, and that god exists and is being shy for some grand reason. Its all about the odds, I believe there is an equal chance that Santa Clause and the Tooth Fairy exist. Does that take away my atheist hood? I don’t believe so. Agnostics believe there IS a god, but we just can’t know him/her or his/her reasons. Atheists believe there is no god, this doesn’t mean an atheist can’t acknowledge that there is a chance, however remote, that he or she is wrong. Quit trying to invalidate everyone atheism!
That little rant out of the way, I like this advertising scheme thing. It seems that we are the modern day boogey man. Quite undeservedly, mind you.
@Shaze: You can always get implants like your fellow Canadian Brian Zembic :)
@Gas: Don’t tempt me, for less money than Brian I might just do it.
@Michael: I think you’re describing Agnosticism; basically you’re not sure about the supernatural etc. I am sure. I know that throughout the entire HISTORY of mankind, there has never been even the slightest shred of credibility to support religious superstition as valid.
No man is smarter or more spiritual than you, no one person knows better; you are equal to all the prophets and saints who have ever lived. If we were created by some higher power, good money on the fact that it’s absolutely NOTHING like what’s described in any man-made religion. I think Science Fiction writers have a better grasp of what’s possible in the Universe, over morons who put together a scrapbook of bullshit centuries ago.
Shaze: As I explained, I am not agnostic. Don’t confuse allowing for the remote possibility that I am wrong with being unsure. Any good scientist will tell you being 100% positive is very rare.
Dawkins even considers himself less than 100% certain, because how can you disprove something you cant prove either…
Anyway, they were wanting to do this in Australia recently too, but for some reason it was blocked by the advertising agency responsible or something. Strange – its not like this country is any more religious than European contries (ie we arent like America)
ATHEIST FOUNDATION OF AUSTRALIA INC
MEDIA RELEASE
Repression of expression
The story in The Guardian (UK) about the London bus slogan campaign gathered widespread attention in Australian media. Also in that report and
unfortunately left out by our newspapers is that all metropolitan bus companies have rejected a similar program by Atheists in Australia.
President, David Nicholls said, “Are we so provincial and narrow in outlook that apart from banning such adverts, the local media refuses even to mention it?
As the originator of the London bus slogans, Ariane Sherine stated, “This is a great day for freedom of speech in Britain”.”
The same cannot be said for Australia.
Here’s a link to a New York Times article on this. Besides being a really good summary, it has links to the Guardian op-ed pieces that led to all of this.
Also, Michael, agnostics do not believe that there is a god. They don’t believe that the answer can be known, or, in a weaker sense, that the answer is known. Agnosticism does not hold that God exists but is unknown, because agnosticism does not hold that God exists; it holds that we don’t know whether God exists. You can look in wikipedia to see a more detailed description. Agnosticism, as it’s almost always used, doesn’t refer to God’s nature but to God’s existence. Someone who holds that God exists, but is unknown otherwise, is still a theist through and through.
Oh yea, Wikipedia is a credible source of all knowledge, right? :)
I have heard plenty of definitions of agnosticism that match mine. These terms are often as hard to nail down to a concrete definition as what is a christian, as I have known plenty of protestants that claim catholics aren’t christians. It moves into the realm of opinion usually, so you can’t even really argue it. Based upon this, I maintain that I am correct. Also, you are equally correct. Just depends on who you ask.
I find this interesting, because I have to say I’ve never heard someone define agnosticism as implying a belief in God before.
I understand if you don’t like wikipedia. So I typed “agnosticism” into Google and got more results. Reject them if you feel like it, but there’s only so far one can go before it starts to get old.
http://atheism.about.com/od/aboutagnosticism/a/what.htm – You use agnosticism in talking about God’s attributes, not God’s existence. You can do that, sure. You’re even technically right, and I wouldn’t have denied you that. But, really, is that how “agnosticism” is used? Is that what people are talking about? When people talk about “agnosticism,” I’ve only ever heard one thing.
Here’s the American Heritage Dictionary – http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/agnosticism. It has a technical definition, and then another definition which is apparently used enough to warrant inclusion in a dictionary. Notice what the issue centered around is in the latter.
The next two are rather explicit in following a certain use. http://www.religioustolerance.org/agnostic.htm
http://atheism.about.com/od/aboutagnosticism/Agnosticism_Agnostics_What_Do_Agnostics_Believe_Whats_Agnosticism.htm
http://skepdic.com/agnosticism.html – here’s a more interesting one. It is here to present a point brought up in the first citation – that belief can be either way (in fact, I myself am an atheist in belief and an epistemological agnostic), but agnosticism itself is about knowledge, and holds that, whatever belief is, we do not know. I did not choose the word “know” in my prior post lightly. Belief must be distinguished from knowledge. Likewise for the general belief that God exists. If you want, in other words, to go beyond “what people say” and say that a “true” definition of agnosticism includes belief in God, this is simply wrong, because agnosticism is not about belief, but knowledge.
A person can believe in God and be an agnostic, true. But the belief in God is not a component, either in common use or in lexical fact, of agnosticism.
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01215c.htm – Here’s a Catholic source.
http://aleph0.clarku.edu/huxley/CE5/Agn.html – Here’s Huxley, who apparently came up with the term. I suppose if you want a non-internet source, here it is.
I could go on, but there’s no point. If you don’t agree here, you won’t ten links later.
After this, I have to ask: do you really know that many people who take the definition of agnostic as implying or assuming in any sense that God exists? Unless you’re a complete relativist (and you may very well be, for all I know) a few guys saying they think that x means y doesn’t seem sufficient to say that all definitions are equal. Otherwise, I have now defined “cat” as a green prickly plant, and by that very fact it becomes a correct definition. Further, talking about the beliefs of random Protestant faiths is unrelated and a straw man, because different Protestant sects have their own distinctive definitions of “Christian” and define them clearly as such for their groups. They say, “Our group holds as its belief that Christianity is x. We know that others disagree, but we think they’re wrong.” That definitions (1) is theirs and (2) is about them only. Agnosticism does not follow this path. Agnosticism is not defined by a group of people which may change with time. It is a term with a specific lexical definition referring to a specific sort of knowledge.
My point is this. (1) I don’t pull out wikipedia if it’s all I have :) (2) I think your definitions are the odd ones out, and not just in the sense of a 49% minority. (3) I don’t think this should be boiled down to a simple matter of opinion. If you want to be technical, agnosticism says we don’t know, and so belief in God is not included in agnosticism. It is a separate issue, and in terms of knowledge, agnosticism still says “I dunno.” If you’re not being technical, you are either being a complete relativist or are following some minority I’m unfamiliar with. You can follow those paths if you want, and you won’t be inconsistent for doing so, but I don’t think most would do so.
Yeah, Snurp, way to kick the stupid outta someone! I make a similar argument when someone tells me they don’t “believe” God exists, they “know” it. Relativistic definitions are rife confusion and misinterpretation.
Long drawn out post that really serves no purpose aside, agnosticism can also refer to not “knowing” anything about god, but not necessarily calling into question a person’s belief that there “has to be” a god. Just that we can’t “know him” thus, have no knowledge of him, her or it.
MarkDLS, you should refrain from calling someone you know NOTHING about stupid. It only makes you look ridiculous.
Sorry you got all butt-hurt over the comment. Maybe the term ignorant would have been more suitable? Then again, to hear you quibble over the exact term to use it a little ironic and may say more about you than me.
Post #12 was quite valid in that it served to demonstrate the standard definitions for agnosticism with references. The fact that, once again, you choose to quibble over what you think, showing no references, verses what has been represented and referenced speaks volumes about you.
Maybe you should reconsider how you think people view you? It may lead to the acknowledgment that my view point is more in line to your character than you currently choose to believe.
Michael, allow to make this somewhat shorter, then, to suit your preferences.
Recall that you said this:
This would imply that an agnostic, by definition, believes in God. That is absolutely, unequivocally wrong, and I think I sufficiently made that point. I will repeat, I am an agnostic and I do not believe in God. Epistemological agnostic, atheist in belief. In fact,
so are you, by the sound of it.
Now you say this:
This is referring to usage, not lexical definitions, and I pre-emptively responded to this in my post thus:
and then go to some length to make my point, but I guess it “served no purpose.” Again, I wonder from whom you’re hearing this conception of agnosticism.
Using internet is simple as hell. But I can tell y ou right now, it can be very hard, if you are the first time user.
So, first thing I suggest – open the Explorer, and type in the address you like.
You’ll get there really fast, it depends on your connection speed.
Good luck.
It has always amazed me how proud of themselves,these atheists and agnostics are,it seems as if they looked at everybody else over their shoulder or as if they thought they are absolutely right and the rest of the people,those who do not think as they do,were wrong,and unworthy to take them in account or what is worse,worth to be laughed at.In my mind,they disclaim the existence of God because they think they are the center of the entire Universe,so the conclusion is that they,themselves,are GOD.It is easy to mock at a peaceful faith,that never protests,they must thank God for that.I wonder why they are not so brave,and instead they use the name of the God belonging to the Muslim religion,in such campaigns.
In addition to this,they manipulate the truth,and are big liars,since they claim that Einstein,who,on the other side,is an overvalued Nobel Prize scientist,has refused the existence of God.That’s false.But,the reason for all this manipulation may be that they think they are the illustrated ones,with all that atheist reading with which they have filled their lives,such as Nietsche and similar,and consequently they consider that the people who ,basically believe,that God exists,without entering in religious discussions,are just ignorant and fanatic people,easy to manipulate with all kind of inventions.
I wonder why they have not donated those 130.000 pounds to some N.G.O.instead of wasting it in such an absurd campaign.On the other side,what is the purpose for it?
Their discussions about God are always based on prejudices and stereotypes,and the arm they always use is ridiculizing the believers.
Time is a good allied,so it is just a question of time for they changing their minds,if not,at least,respect to those who do believe.
ROSA, It has always amazed me how proud religious people are of blind faith, willful ignorance, and flawed reasoning. I do not believe I am absolutely right, but what I believe in is based on fact and logical reasoning, which closer to the truth than most. Few religions are truly peaceful, most have had times in history when they were the primary cause for atrocities and suppression of the progress of man. Also, here’s a quote of Albert Einstein’s you may like:
“I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religion than it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it.”
Lets us also not forget the billions spent on churches, mosques, and synagogues around the world, I don’t really see the difference.
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