Early Tuesday morning Danish police arrested several Muslims suspected of conspiring to kill 72-year-old cartoonist Kurt Westergaard. Complete story here.
For those of you in the dark, Westergaard was one of the 12 cartoonists who published the cartoons of the Prophet Mohammed back in September 2005. But Westergaard drew what would become the most famous caricature of them all… the Prophet Mohammed wearing a turban with a ginormous bomb in it.
These cartoons sparked a wide range of reactions from Muslims the world over; none of which were good. From riots to protests to boycotts, Muslim fanatics ran amuck. Even this website, along with countless others, were temporarily knocked offline by Turkish hackers for carrying the images.
What I find fascinating is that Muslims forbid caricatures of the Prophet Mohammed because they feel it may lead to idolatry. They want to protect their religion and their beloved Prophet Mohammed. Ok I get that and to be honest it makes sense to a certain extent. Hell, even the Christians have a rule against this (Exodus 20:4).
But what’s so amusingly ironic is that the result of this is far more damaging to the religion they cherish so much. In their attempt to avoid idolizing Mohammed, they ended up idolizing their entire religion in a sense. And with that comes an almost insane lack of rationality when anyone or anything remotely “criticizes” Islam and it’s Prophet Mohammed.
Just a heads up for those in Denmark… Three of Denmark’s largest newspapers plan to reprint Westergaards infamous caricature tomorrow as a result of the arrests and to show that fanatics will not intimidate them. Bravo!
UPDATE: Several Danish newspapers have in fact reprinted the infamous cartoon!
Related posts:
- Danish People’s Party Youth Wing Salutes Muhammed
- Hello, My Name Is Mohammed!
- 9 Out Of 10 Muslims Prefer The Taste Of Jewish Blood
- Muhammed Caricatures Spark Violence
- Fight Islamic Pressure To Censor Wikipedia
February 12th, 2008 at 11:53 pm
It is something I’ve thought about lately…that Mohammed is only a prophet, nothing more, and yet one cannot even be allowed to create an image that represents him. What difference does it make if he’s just a prophet? It seems like going to all this fuss proves the higher-than-prophet position he has for many.
February 13th, 2008 at 12:51 am
Interesting point there, Snurp. I find it interesting that the break between Catholicism and Greek Orthodoxy primarily came over the icon/idol controversy; but, so far as I know, all the various sects of Islam share the “don’t depict Mohammed” provision (if I am wrong, please correct me, as I am by no means an expert on the various Islamic sects). And — again, as I understand it — the prohibition in Islam is due to a desire that Islamic folks not “worship” an image of Mohammed, nor Mohammed instead of Allah.
But what is more important to me is the fact that there are two seperate, centuries-old concepts in conflict here: on the one hand, you have the Islamic tradition of supressing expression offensive to Islam; on the other, Free Speech. By definition, someone’s free expression will be offensive to someone, somewhere, sometime.
It has taken centuries for the full implications of the doctrine of Free Speech to come into its own, but that only in the West (and yes, I know, not completely in many respects). The Islamic world has only recently been manifestly faced (thanks to the dissemination of ideas through electronic means, mostly) with challenges to its authority from outside of its sphere of authority.
I side with Free Speech, mainly because when you start suppressing it (say, by trying to keep the KKK from marching and spouting their racist nonsense), then you open the door to some one else suppressing yours. So I don’t see — realistically, mind you — how anything but time for the increased liberalization of Islamic thought will resolve this, because I sure as shinola am not giving up my natural right to speak, draw, and otherwise express myslef as I see fit.
There is *one* option the Islamic world has in this issue that I can find no fault with: boycott. If you find these newspapers’ positions offensive, boycott them and encourage others to boycott them. That’s your right. If you get enough people to not buy the newspapers and to not look at the drawings voluntarily, then you put them out of business. But, in the words of the ancient Chinese proverb: the first man to throw a punch admits he has lost the argument.
If some find that offensive . . . well, as I said, Free Speech *is* offensive.
February 13th, 2008 at 2:16 am
clowns
Right now im making up some stencils of these images and im going to spray paint them around town… make sure they appear in some upcoming music videos and movies…
SURELY their religion forbids MURDER as a greater sin than pictorially depicting the prophet???
February 13th, 2008 at 2:40 am
Sure, Jayman; you’d think that, wouldn’t you? But my local expert on Islam is probably asleep right now, and he’s a liberal thinking Muslim from Egypt who came here to get away from violence and live a life under the auspices and guarantees of the Constitution of the United States and its amendments, so I can’t be sure . . . but he did tell me that the concept of “Jihad” has been accepted by the moderate Muslims to indicate an *internal* struggle against wrong acts (like, say, murder). I suppose it goes back to what I call “modern vs. medieval” thinking. Medieval thinking usually ended up with someone’s head being used for a football, that being the easiest way to settle an argument while dissuade dissent (and get a ball for a rousing game of two-hand touch in the process). . .
And I do support you in your endeavour, Jayman. Make sure to get the colors right! Accuracy, you know, is key . . .
February 13th, 2008 at 5:51 am
As a result of this they aired (or re-aired) a wonderful (danish) documentary about some reporter going to the variuos places where the riots against those cartoons were held, and asking people about it.
The highlights of it being that the riot and burning of one of the danish embassies was organized by some guy who’s apparently a professional riot-starter, he seemed like a very nice guy and when being asked if he wanted to see the cartoons he smiled and said something like “sure, i’m not a fanatic”.
None of the people he talked to had ever seen any of the cartoons, and they all had rather week explanations of why the cartoons are offensive.
In iran they went to some revolutionist supply store, that exclusively sold iranian flags and posters of those wacky mullahs, and they apprently used to have plenty of posters of muhammed as well, only removing them after the cartoon scandal, the reporter bought the last poster of muhammed the store had.
February 13th, 2008 at 10:41 am
UPDATE: http://www.editorandpublisher.com/eandp/news/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1003709991
“COPENHAGEN, Denmark Three of Denmark’s largest newspapers plan to reprint a cartoon tomorrow that depicts the Prophet Muhammad wearing a bomb-shaped turban.
The announcement follows the arrests of three people suspected of plotting to kill Kurt Westergaard, who drew one of 12 Muhammad caricatures.
Publication of the drawings in 2005 and then again in 2006 led to protests in Muslim countries.
The papers say they are taking the action to show they will not be intimidated by fanatics.”
February 13th, 2008 at 10:41 am
“. . . and they apprently used to have plenty of posters of muhammed as well, only removing them after the cartoon scandal, the reporter bought the last poster of muhammed the store had.”
I stand corrected, then. I’ve known for a while that the Iranina government pays people to be “professional protesters” (documented during the hostage crisis), but I was totally in the dark about the Mohammed poster thing. I wonder what Kasem will have to say about that?
February 13th, 2008 at 11:51 am
Now over to the vaunted New York Post. Will they have the guts to cover this worthy news story including publishing the offending cartoon, or will they wimp out again, and spit on the concept of freedom of speech. My guess is they’ll batten down the hatches and hope the controversy passes quickly, while continuing to ridicule safe targets like Christianity.
February 13th, 2008 at 12:01 pm
The reason the picture of the Prophet (pbuh) is not tolerated, was due to the risk in early
Islam, that the people would start worshipping his picture, versus God. Would this
cartoon picture pose that risk? I don’t think so. However, the depiction IS derogatory, hence a fairly strong reaction from some people. An overreaction in my opinion. One only needs to look at the life of the Prophet (pbuh), which is supposed to be an example to us, to see what the appropriate thing to do would be. During his life, the Prophet was mocked, ridiculed, had stones and rocks thrown at him injuring him - and what did he do? He forgave the people doing this to him. So if in his life - people inflicted REAL damage to him - and he forgave them. What effect should a picture depicting him with a bomb as a turban have? Certainly NOT what its been. Its sad to see the reaction of people.
They act in the name of Islam, yet don’t even know the basics. Therein lays the problem. A lot of these people haven’t even READ the Quran, let alone understand its meaning. They’re just going by what their parents / grandparents used to do.
I do beleive in freedom of speech. That said, to republish something that’s drawing such controversy, is irresponsible. It surmounts to instigating violence. It’s not going to teach anyone tolerance - to think so is naive.
February 13th, 2008 at 12:13 pm
Wonderful! Finally, some backbone! Finally, some understanding of where the real core of this war on terrorism really is! It is in ideological criticism, mockery of outrages against human decency, regardless of whether those outrages are from fanatic followers or not. This ridiculous idea that one religion and its founder cannot be criticized must stop! More cartoons! Twenty new cartoons every day, criticism of mohammed on billboards, clear ideological war will cure this. If every day there is an overwhelming amount, then the tide of terrorism will turn. This is just like the cold war - at heart it is ideological, and when that is won, the guns will sink into the sand.
February 13th, 2008 at 12:51 pm
Yes it does, but like all Abraham religions, murder is very narrowly defined. Because of the “us vs. them” language built into the holy books of these religions, people outside of the sect are not considered human, and therefore you can not murder them.
Pick a style:
Israelites are humans, but gentiles are animals. Kill Kill Kill!
Christians are humans, but pagans are animals. Kill Kill Kill!
Muslims are humans, but infidels are animals. Kill Kill Kill!
As long as religion fosters an “us vs. them” mentality, followers will always be able to justify killing outsiders as not murder.
February 13th, 2008 at 1:50 pm
Ahhh Satire… tester of faith and the Court Jester of all things unspeakable.
Where would our governments, religions and political leaders get their morals from if it weren’t for the truth hidden in humor?
If you can’t take a joke, you need to stop what you’re doing because it will inevidably be the thing that kills you.
February 13th, 2008 at 2:20 pm
Tolerance, I have nothing against it. But what sense does it make to be tolerant to those who are intolerant? Forgive my frankness but the “Prophet” Did not forgive his enemies and the history of Islam has as much intolerant violence as it does peace. I bend my imaginary hat to those religious people who follow the peace side of their little clubs - but all those clubs (Cept maybe Jainism) have a dark side too, and its that ignorant backwards religious thinking thats kept man(& woman) kind from making developmental steps towards the future. I don’t care what magical piffle you “know” is real, and I am fine if you don’t share my opinion (it wouldnt be fun without a debate) But foisting your personal whims on the whole of the world is the onlt thing a heretical athiest like me can consider pure evil. They (Fanatics) would have us march back to the fourteenth century and deny all discovery, all science, all logical morality for their imaginary friends. The “Prophet” left his first preaching post (Mecca) and then was driven to his next soapbox (Yathrib:Medina) he gathered enough gullible zealots to march back to Mecca and take his revenge…Peace and Forgivness seem rather absent in all forms religion, especially those who lack an enlightenment, which is what Islam needs.
February 13th, 2008 at 4:41 pm
An update here from Denmark. At least danish newspapers has reprinted the cartoon which is pretty much all major papers in Denmark.
This incident seems to have made a difference in Denmark. The papers Politikken and Berlingske Tidende which has been critical of the publishing in 2005 and claimed that freedom of speech was never in danger and that the cartoons served no purpose, has now changed their minds.
It seems like Denmark now stands united.
February 13th, 2008 at 4:43 pm
Oups forgot to put in the number.
At least 18 danish newspapers has reprinted the cartoon.
February 13th, 2008 at 7:28 pm
I am VERY tempted to make a few hundred copies and post them all over my college campus.
February 13th, 2008 at 11:03 pm
“In their attempt to avoid idolizing Mohammed, they ended up idolizing their entire religion in a sense.”
i find this comment interesting. the danish newspapers are actually united if not owned by one company?! I am surprised, i don’t hear much about this around the world, or i’m i just early? just wondering.
February 14th, 2008 at 3:20 am
“the danish newspapers are actually united if not owned by one company?! I am surprised, i don’t hear much about this around the world”
They were not united when the cartoons were first printed and they are of course not owned by the same company.
In fact the editor of “Politikken” Tøger Seidenfaden has been the most eager critic of “Jyllands Posten”’s cartoon stunt.
However he has always said that if an attack on a cartoonists would come, he would print the cartoon and he has now kept his word.
February 14th, 2008 at 10:05 am
That’s great news, Corso. Thanks for the update.
February 15th, 2008 at 5:41 pm
UPDATE: http://gatewaypundit.blogspot.com/2008/02/riots-in-denmark-muslim-youths-go-on.html
Muslim riots in Denmark!
February 15th, 2008 at 5:52 pm
“Muslim riots in Denmark!”
They are also joined by young ethnic danes from the extreme left in their fight against the “racist” danish police.
Better check my car..
February 18th, 2008 at 3:37 pm
wow it disguists me how disrespectful people can be.
but you have ur freedom of speech. it just shows that this artists could not use the goodness of his heart to prevent millions of muslims feel insulted. one must say, these cartoons helped us muslims unite even more as an ummah.
why cant ppl just get along? and why cant ppl just have the good manners as to refrain from mocking a religious figure?
my lord is the all knowing, the all merciful and only he can punish..
February 18th, 2008 at 4:04 pm
“wow it disguists me how disrespectful people can be.”
It disgusts me how people expect respect for their religion even though it’s been responsible for the deaths of so many innocent people.
“my lord is the all knowing, the all merciful and only he can punish..”
What about the victims of terrorist attacks? are they not being punished?
February 18th, 2008 at 5:01 pm
the religion its self has not been responsible for deaths, its the extremists that go around and use it as an excuse. ofcorse theyre being punished, but not only will they be rewarded for their patience but the ones responsble will be punished so much more in hell.
true islam is ever-beautiful..
February 18th, 2008 at 5:07 pm
Muslim boy, you can also choose not to be offended by a cartoon.
I find it disgusting how you claim your religion is correct, dispite mounds of evidence to the contrary. It dispises me that freely choose a religion responsible for so much suffering worldwide and the impedement of science and social development. It sickens me that you claim rights from your disproven, archaic religion of choice.
I find it vile and ignorant of you to place your religion beyond all scrutiny and debate, yet you continue it is true and right and continue to claim rights from it.
February 19th, 2008 at 11:25 am
Muslimboy:
“the religion its self has not been responsible for deaths”
Muslimboy. If I made a religion and announced that believers should seek out “people with red hair and cut off their head and fingers” and somebody actually went out and killed his red-haired neighbor, would I then be partly responsible for that killing? yes or no?
February 21st, 2008 at 1:41 pm
what can i say…All these days what one can find is only DISCUSSIONS about my religion and your religion.
my only question is that has anyone ever read what is realy present in the context of islam? has anyone sincerely read what is written in koran who sir wants to make a change?
people i am from Pakistan and my 1/4 family has been living in the democratic west since a very long time and what i have actually found is that when a person goes in a society of ideals and democratic mind set having rules and law abiding attitude he himself becomes more logical so as by my point i just want to say that if in Islam its jihad that is contested or that the social system to be intolerable, to be offending against free thought in my view its more towards humans them selves who either do not want a change or they are themselves coward enough not to speak against inhumane values.
as an example in one of the provinces where i am presently residing in, its a practice even found today that just for the sake of protecting the cultivatable lands and restricting them in their parent family women who become heirs of such a property are married to Koran, one can question that but, i didn’t find any thing or even a glimpse of a verse reffering towards such.
so people its just a humble view point!
for those friends of mine, Why such a free press or opinion who is hurting the second largest religion on the globe.Why not exposing that truth that will lead to a point of harmony.
February 21st, 2008 at 1:54 pm
corso…
only partly, because it was the person who actually commited the crime who is responsible. you simply suggested it..
:)
February 21st, 2008 at 2:09 pm
“only partly, because it was the person who actually commited the crime who is responsible. you simply suggested it..”
So we can aggree that the Quran and thereby Islam is partly responsible for killings done in Allah’s name even though you stated earlier:
“the religion its self has not been responsible for deaths”
“true islam is ever-beautiful..”
February 21st, 2008 at 5:52 pm
islam is just being used as an excuse, for all we know those people might not even be muslims. its been done before. people have plotted to ‘terrorise’ only to be stopped and then it turns out theyre not even muslims.
my lord is all knowing…
February 21st, 2008 at 6:05 pm
“islam is just being used as an excuse, for all we know those people might not even be muslims.”
The only problem with that argument is that there really isn’t a motive to kill the cartoonist unless your a muslim.
February 21st, 2008 at 11:36 pm
why should the cartoonist be killed by a muslim only if i got it right then he may suffer an injury or any issue which might be fatal for his life and may include any other person as the cause for such like a cab accident or he may be hit by a car and if he dies then person who had hit him might not be a muslim but as he was THE CARTOONIST all the blame game will be towards muslims and the danish govt will deport some bearded men who will be the probable suspects.
February 23rd, 2008 at 6:17 pm
Islam forbid acts such as killing, violence, riots… and even feelings like vengeance, hatred…
Islam has too many principles and each one should be deeply studied by muslims as they are constructing a good society in all its aspects.
The prophet Muhammad (SAAS) is the one who gave muslims what Islam is, who gave them those principles, in around two decades, he became the most influensable man in all times, he succeeded to put order and evolution, led a nation with simple yet heavy words and not swords, even now that islam is the fastest spreading religion and even with all tries to alter its image to a barbaric religion, a honest and smart man will never believe that Islam was spread by violence but too many ppl wont see it.
As muslim, I don’t like that one of the rules of islam is broken by muslim or non-muslim. But you talk about freedom of speech, yes but let me ask you : is there a limit to freedom of speech ? Those who will say ABVIOUSLY NO are mistaken and didn’t understand what is that thing they call freedom of speech.
I say my freedom of speech ends when someone else’s freedom start and so on. I had no limits to what I say or what I do, I can say bad things, insult anyone and he can’t blame me for that since I am ” free “, imagine the society like this, anyone does what he likes, there must be rules so ppl can enjoy a good life.
Non-muslim who supported the caricature thing don’t even know about Muhammad (SAAS) and if they are asked about him they will only reply with few words heard on TV or read in newspapers, I really wonder if there was at least one person who doubted in the information, a honest clever American or European should really “re-think” and knows that there is something called MISLEADING MEDIA… I just want to make a call for the ones who wont repeat others ppl words and opinions to start reading about our prophet (SAAS) and pay attention to the author of whatever information you read.
Finally, I just want to say that drawing him is deeply mocking the source of our principles, yet drawing him in bad situation, bombs and other wrong messages, who drew that is misleading millions of ppl because it is not true, would you follow someone who even didn’t read history and just for the fun of the thing continued those acts. Too many muslims lost their minds and did wrong things like burning and so on, exactly what makes good arguments for others to strengthen the idea that muslim and islam are nothing but bad happenings.
Excuse me for the long comment !
February 24th, 2008 at 5:33 am
Caller:
“Islam forbid acts such as killing, violence, riots… and even feelings like vengeance, hatred…”
No it doesn’t. Please read your holy book. Then come back and lets have a discussion.
You can start here:
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Quran/023-violence.htm
The site contains a collection of 109 quranic verses that calls for violence against non-believers. Remember those hostages that were killed and had their deaths put on the net?
You will here find the answer to why their heads were cut off.
“even now that islam is the fastest spreading religion”
Yea and we all know what happens to muslims that dares to converts to another religion or become atheists. If you see the world as a place where religions compete with each other, your religion does not play fair.
By the way. Atheism is fast expanding too.
“even with all tries to alter its image to a barbaric religion, a honest and smart man will never believe that Islam was spread by violence”
What happens to me if I write a book revealing the unpleasent truth about Muhammed and how Islam become an empire? What if I lived in Iran, Pakistand, Afghanistan or Saudi-Arabia - could I write a critical book about Muhammed and his religion?
Ibn Warraq has written books that critize Islam like “Why I am not a Muslim” ,”The origins of the Koran” and “Leaving Islam”. He now lives in hiding and not even his face is showed when he appear in the news. Does this surprise you?
You Caller are like a turk saying that there was no armenian genocide. He can’t read it anywhere because it’s forbidden to write about it in Turkey - but in the free west we know the truth. We also know about Muhammed and his religion.
“I had no limits to what I say or what I do, I can say bad things, insult anyone and he can’t blame me for that since I am †free “, imagine the society like this, anyone does what he likes, there must be rules so ppl can enjoy a good life.”
But what is a good life?
The cartoonist placed a bomb in Muhammeds turban. That’s a way of expressing his view on militant Islam. I would not be happy in a country where freedom didn’t exist.
The ability to critizise organized religion is one of the things that has made Europe what it is today. The lack of freedom to critize religion is on the other hand whats keeping many muslim countries in the dark.
If anybody says anything wrong about you, you are free to point out why he is wrong. You have done that in your comment. Good for you. The system works.
February 24th, 2008 at 8:39 am
Very well stated, Corso. I would also like to point out to Caller that his comment, “I say my freedom of speech ends when someone else’s freedom start and so on. I had no limits to what I say or what I do, I can say bad things, insult anyone and he can’t blame me for that since I am †free “, imagine the society like this, anyone does what he likes, there must be rules so ppl can enjoy a good life.” is at least partially flawed. For one thing, words are not actions. For a second thing, Free Speech is only that so long as no one is *physically* hurt due to it (i. e., shouting “fire” in a theater when there is none and someone gets trampled; open advocation of violence). Hurt “feelings” don’t count. In other words, extending the doctrine of free speech to include the political system of Anarchy (which is what you describe) is vastly over-extending a metaphor, to the point of breaking.
February 24th, 2008 at 12:08 pm
Well, about the Quranic verses that mentions violence I hope I can explain this clearly : if you look into history, not from arabic historians but non-muslims, you will find out that there wasn’t even a single war started by muslims in Muhammad (SAAS)’s life. That is very important as you can’t blame him if his followers deviated from his instructions and also after his death.
I hope you read all this because I really do with your comment ;
Let me tell you few things that Muhammad (SAAS) did :
- At war time, a non-muslim captured soldier is free if he teach 10 kids something (like arabic language)
- He ordered soldiers to never touch anyone unarmed, anyone who enters his house, anyone who enters a church, never hurt and help nom-muslim women, kids and old men.
If the country is under attack, of course ppl will look down on those who refuse to fight back, there were a lot of them in islam and their only punishement was to never fight along with real soldier who really cares about their country and families. (And of course there were ones who were forgiven and got to fight)
- One of the countless deeds of Muhammad (SAAS): He was once undepted to a non-muslim man and both agreed that our prophet (SAAS) pay him back on a certain time, that man came before the paytime and infront of all Muhammad (SAAS) friends he started to insult him and his family as they have no words and things like that… One of his friends stood up willing to violently punish the non-muslim man, at that time Muhammad (SAAS) stood up and stopped him saying that : Islam did not come for such things, you should advice me to pay back my debt quickly with thanking the man for helping me and advice the man to ask his right using good manners. And after that, Muhammad (SAAS) paid back the debt with another amount of money which is the payback for that moment when he was frightened by his friend. Muhammad (SAAS) saw at that time that there was a right that should be given to that man who himself didn’t knew about it. That’s human rights before more than 1400 years.
This little story has millions of stories alike, I just mention it to give an exemple of the path Muhammad (SAAS) took, the path of Islam, those instructions that real muslim struggle to maintain when other ppl calling themselves muslims are fooling and giving a totally wrong image of Islam. I won’t talk about those non-muslims who do it on purpose.
I am muslim and I say that execution like you saw on internet is not something a muslim can do even that the ppl who did it think of themeselves as muslim, they are wrong and should revise just the basics of islam to just know they were wrong.
What would a man who never drove a car do when he drive a very good car ? and how would the one who made it drive it ?
-> now try to think that Islam is that car and you get the image.
I am blaming anyone who went on rampage because of the caricatures but I was and am still angry against that act. Muslims all over the world should talk more about Muhammad (SAAS) to non-muslims, because they really don’t know about him and I don’t deny that even too many muslims don’t even know about their prophet (SAAS).
I just want to ask ppl who honestly (that’s very important) want to know the truth and seek it, there are too much books giving wrong information about Quran and Islam, too much arabic words misinterpreted, too much means to hide what islam is and how could be a real muslim.
Please don’t consider all muslims a terrorist because one man, claiming that he is muslim, kill an innocent human.
not acts but even hurting the feelings is punished in Islam as I mentionned above. I can’t say something that hurts the feeling of another man if saying it won’t solve an existant problem, like in describing a criminel’s crime for exemple, I can’t write or say words that people won’t like but this is it, I am explaining not intentionally saying bad things about someone just because it does good to me!
About Muhammad (SAAS) caricature, I say that it is also wrong because it is not true, he was thinking he was free, and drew something misleadind ppl to some wrong way, a way to misjudgements, without studying the case, without reading history…
Islamic countries are in the dark you said, I want to ask why millions of Americans and Europeans are converting to Islam ? Why Britain is thinking about putting some Islam rules (called Shariya) in their law systems ? Why ppl like Jeffrey lang converted to Islam and is writing best sellers, why some non-muslim channels are making documentaries in favor of islam when there are lot of them against ? Why is a bearded non-muslim is cool and if he is arabic is directly suspected ? Just because a man called ben laden show up in the pic ? I am myself thinking he is drinking wine and never gave Islam a care…
Am sorry I talk about a lot of things and sometimes get away from the main topic, excuse me please.
There is a wall called misjudgement between a lot of ppl, as we can break it down, I can continue and try to explain my religion as it is deepling connected to me, how I act, always thinking about how good I do in my religion, at work, with friends, playing, joking, when I get angry or sad in all the situation I try to do good because that’s what Islam call for, what makes me strong and of course I will listen to every single word you say, an insult over wrong judgement or a critic I hope I can reply.
February 24th, 2008 at 2:46 pm
First I must say Caller. You seem like a nice person. I have read all you wrote and I know you will do the same with my text.
Nothing is black and white. Even Adolf Hitler had moments where he showed kindness. You have found a lot of good things about Muhammed. I can find bad things about.
Caller:
“you will find out that there wasn’t even a single war started by muslims in Muhammad (SAAS)’s life.â€
Not all aggree with you on that.
Wikipedia:
Muhammed’s critics often hold that the Muslims engaged in wars of aggression, that they caused much bloodshed and suffering, that they imposed Islam at the point of a sword, and that Muhammad’s conduct is not an example to be imitated.
Conversely, other non-Muslim academics believe that Muhammad was a reluctant warrior, such that he disliked fighting except when he believed it to be absolutely necessary. However, in battles such as the battle of Khaybar many believe were undertaken to increase Muhammads prestige and to profiteer.
Caller:
“That is very important as you can’t blame him if his followers deviated from his instructions and also after his death.â€
Are you here talking about his 109 calls for war against non-believers? History has shown that those instructions were followed.
Caller:
“He ordered soldiers to never touch anyone unarmed, anyone who enters his house, anyone who enters a church, never hurt and help nom-muslim women, kids and old men.â€
That is not true. I am now going to mention the massacre on the Banu Qurayza tribe (again).
When the starving tribe surrendered, Muhammed forced an old man from their own tribe to pronounce Muhammed’s sentence. The sentence was death to every male adult member of the tribe, slavery for every woman and child and plunder of all their property.
Muhammed had an immense trench dug around the main market of Medinah. The men of the Banu Qurayza were rounded up and forced to kneel at the edge of the trench. They were offered a last chance to convert to “The True Faith” and if they refused, they had their heads cut off.
During this massacre Muhammed killed the husband and father of Raihana Bint Amr before her eyes. Then he took her as his wife. Muslim historians still describe the rape of Raihana Bint Amr as her “willing submission to Islam and wifehood to the Prophetâ€.
Don’t believe me? Take a look at these so-called revelations by your self-proclaimed prophet. In fact they reveal a lot about the personality of Muhammed.
Sura 8:41 “And know that whatever ye take as spoils of war, lo! a fifth thereof is for Allah, and for the messenger…â€.
Sura 59:7 “That which Allah giveth as spoil unto His messenger from the people of the townships, it is for Allah and His messenger…â€
I wonder what Allah planned to use his 1/5 share of the booty to :)
Caller:
“About Muhammad (SAAS) caricature, I say that it is also wrong because it is not true, he was thinking he was free, and drew something misleadind ppl to some wrong way, a way to misjudgements, without studying the case, without reading history…â€
What about the drawings is not true? What was misleading? Do you know your history yourself? Did you know your prophet was a slaveowner and that the muslim world were the last to abolish slavery? Ever heard of the massacre I mentioned earlier?
Caller:
“Islamic countries are in the dark you said, I want to ask why millions of Americans and Europeans are converting to Islam ? Why Britain is thinking about putting some Islam rules (called Shariya) in their law systems ?â€
I don’t know. Perhaps they saw Allah in a dream? :) What do you think yourself? Most danish converts are girls that falls in love with a muslim man and therefore feel a need to convert. By the way Britain is NOT thinking about putting Islamic law into british law. I know a man of the church suggested it not long time ago. He became very unpopular.
I know a lot of european academics, artists, historians, writers etc. says a lot of nice things about Islam and it makes you feel like your religion is something special, but I have to tell you this.
It’s simply because you almost all are dark-skinned and comes from a different culture. This way these people can show their surroundings how tolerant, globalized and non-racists they are. It may sound strange but its the truth.
I guarantee you if you guys were looking like europeans with blond hair and blue eyes Islam would be treated very differently by these people. Conservative religions that treat women badly are not looked upon kindly.
February 25th, 2008 at 6:07 am
Well Corso, Thank you for reading my text.
But now I see clear in your thinking.
- You just read text from Quran translated, and keywords mistranslated then misinterpreted. The arab text of Quran can have a lot of meanings, that cannot be understood unless you speak arabic language. It’s a very important matter. A lot of European and Americans converted to Islam after learning arabic language when they were strongly against it before, you can take a look at ” Deedat ” ’s life and maybe watch his debates and you’ll see by yourself how millions of ppl converted to islam by just assisting to one of his debate, inculding churchmen, am sure you’ll find his videos in a lot of sites or torrents.
- Islam was never spread by the sword, if you took the time to choose those verses from Quran which are mistranslated, why don’t you look again for the one where God forbid any muslim to force someone into Islam, or where God advice muslim to work and live nexto non-muslim so they can hear Islam words and see Islam manners… I won’t do it (putting these verses) I really hope you do that. Could you tell me please which sword is making Islam spreading this fast in 2008 ? even with all the misunderstanding going on against Islam. As muslim, the only sword I’ll hold is the simple word, the good attitude, the real great ” Jihad ” (Struggle) is the Jihad against oneself, to supress hatred, evil thinking, bad deeds of oneself, that’s its meaning.
Corso : ” It’s simply because you almost all are dark-skinned … looking like europeans with blond hair and blue eyes Islam would be treated very differently by these people…”
You just showed me that you treat dark-skinned ppl differently, I won’t say you are racist, that’s too much, but you think you understand ppl’s choices about Islam and their action because of that ? Please, converted ppl from your country will feel very bad about it.
Am from Tunisia (Northest Africa) (guess you know that from mu IP adress) and am white, I was born in a muslim family and followed Islam blindly but at a young age, I started to think deeply about it and started to understand other religions, I saw the differences, now I am muslim because I truly believe in it and know that’s it’s the way I had to choose, as most of converted muslims, not by feelings, but deep understanding.
Please, reconsider what you said about skin and cultures, it’s very offensive to Americans and Euopeans converted before the dark-skinned ones.
There are muslims excelling in all fields, maths, astrophysics, aviation, mechanics, medecines… all those ppl, are they stupid ? didn’t they thought before converting to islam ? even with all this (media against Islam!) you said perhaps they saw Allah in a dream ? All of them ? is that a rational answer ?
What I think is that those ppl was looking for the truth without listening to anyone, muslims or non-muslims, they only cared about the credibility of information which is something I really advice you to focus on, don’t make any judgements unless you really think you finished studying everything about Islam then am sure you will see it in a different way. It may looks hard to believe but you’ll never know unless you look deep into it.
I am muslim and you are not, doesn’t make any difference for me, I can easily work with you or talk like this, we can be friends also, our beliefs, Islam doesn’t forbid me to do it, Islam encourage me to get in touch with non-muslims as I said before. But you said that I seem to be a nice person, what if I were black ? what if I had a long beard ? will you even look at me ? I will look at you whoever you are and whatever you did or said and will not refuse to talk to you unless you are the one who refuse to.
And Yes I read history until this time, not only Islamic but in general, I suggest you you do the same.
And when you read, always remember to look deep in the author history, his path, his deeds, his ideas as he is the one giving the information, so the only guarantee is to also read about the author too so you can know if he is writing something personal or the real history, that’s what I do when I read something, I don’t believe it blindly and am sure anyone can do it.
About language, a lot of Europeans learnt Arabic and speak it better than native talkers, there is no way a person can’t do what someone else did before. but if you don’t have the time to, that’s another thing.
Honest looking for the truth is what matters is what could push you to do that, if not, then that means I just wated my time!
February 25th, 2008 at 8:45 am
Hello Caller,
This has always been curious to me. Not just in Islam but in every religion that has ‘holy’ texts. Why would God make ‘His’ word available in only one language? Does ‘He’ not care about those who speak other languages? It seems to make it purposely hard for outsiders to understand. It also seems like quite a coincidence that God speaks the exact same language as the culture who claims to have exclusive access to ‘His’ words. Why wouldn’t an all-powerful God write in a language everyone can understand?
Learn Arabic? No thanks. You seem to have excellent English. Why don’t you write a ‘correct’ translation, seeing as you think all of the expert translators throughout the ages have failed at it.
February 25th, 2008 at 10:31 am
Hello sidfaiwu,
Most of muslims now are not arabic and don’t speak it (like Indonesia, Malaysia or China) They know some basics to say Quranic verses in their prayers and that’s all, for the rest, they just read in a translated language.
At that time (before more than 1400) Muhammad (SAAS) was sent in an arabic country, where almost all of the other countries travel to, Meccah, was like a big center of commerce, a mixture for all cultures. Arabic language has very deep words, it is very simple to understand yet unbelievably hard to master, poets from that time were competing and saying really good phrases that a simple man couldn’t imagine. Then comes Muhammad (SAAS) with the Quran, and I hope you know that he wasn’t able to read and write, and that was a miracle itself since even now no human could bring just a simple phrase that looks like one in Quran, that was a defy from God to human and at the same time a proof that it’s not a human being saying but his words. Of course how could he defy ppl in another languages, isn’t it very logic the field of competition in what competitor excels most ? That’s the point of the miracle, and let me also tell you that countless of “Mustashrikin” foreigners who learnt arabic tried and failed to imitate Quran. Another miracle of the Quranic text is that no one could be able to alter it, everywhere you go, you will only find one version of the Quran, tell me please how many version of the holy bible exist, how many differences there are.
Quran has a lot of hidden meanings that new science from Europe and America showed its truth, in astronomy, in medecine, nature of water, air, human, earth… things that ppl before 1400 wouldn’t understand or even believe in. That’s how arabic language is and if you want exemple I can give you.
Don’t learn arabic if you wont, but if you have time, go and check forums of universities where students had to study arabic language because they had no choice, they had to study an extra language in some universities, then see what happened, how most of them changed their opinion about arabic ppl, knew more about their language and then their religion, you will be really surprised.
My English is far from excellent, I have been studying it for few years now and that’s how I can communicate with you, why don’t you do the same ? it’s a handicap that makes you behind, the information you have is not complete when you look at the arabic scripture and you wonder what does it means, if you learn it, you will see for yourself if I say the truth or no, if the translation is always poor and there can’t be a perfect one.
And better than a translation, an explanation of every verses with a translation is the best way to show Quran in a language other than arabic.
I am doing my best to show Islam as I see, I really don’t care if you hate my religion because you see it something it is not, I don’t care if you are atheist or worship some stones, but if you ask me honestly I will answer with what I think is right.
February 25th, 2008 at 10:51 am
Ah, you beat me to the punch, sidfaiwu.
So merely an additional questions in regards of knowing arabic.
There is about 197 million non-arabic speakers in Indonesia, 133 in Pakistan, in Iran there is 62 million as in Turkey and in India there is about 95 Million non-arabic speaking citizens.
So these 549 million people are practicing wrong form of islam as they have not learned to read in arabic.
Also, why muslims claim that there is only one right version of the Quran as is states in the Sahih Bukhari, Volume 5, Book 58, Number 150
Does that not say you are to learn Quran from not one but from multiple sources to gain the true message?
February 25th, 2008 at 11:49 am
Interesting. I was unaware that so many Muslims don’t speak Arabic. So Islam is at the stage in its development that Christianity was 500 years ago in yet another way. Their holy text is written in a language limited to the religious elite.
This sounds like linguistic snobbery to me. Other languages can be just as deep, subtle, and poetic. There is nothing special about Arabic, or English for that matter.
Yeah, I’ve read some of these verses that supposedly predicted science. Every single one of them involve interpretations that stretch the meaning of these verses to incredulous levels. I don’t buy it.
I disagree. At least your written English is excellent. Why don’t I do the same? Because other languages interest me more than Arabic.
I appreciate the sentiment, but I want to make it clear that I do not hate Islam, nor any other religion. What I do hate is the insistence of many religionists that I have to agree with them. I also hate the overall effect that religions of all kinds have on the world. They seem like an unnecessary way for humanity to separate themselves. Worse yet, religions make the differences between cultures moral. It far too easy to paint one’s enemy as immoral if they don’t share one’s religion, where one nominally gets their morality. Once the ‘other’ is considered immoral, it’s easy to consider them less than human and inflict violence upon them. So just to make it clear, I, and many here, do not hate Islam, only the overall effect that all religions have on the world.
February 25th, 2008 at 2:46 pm
Well this point sort of stuck out like a sore thumb, as it does with biblical verses also
The claim that the Quran/Bible is divinely inspired would also mean that it is word of god.
How a man could explain the word of god and why a man would not understand the word of god without explanations?
It all keeps boiling down to the one and same thing, which I have faced often when trying to talk about Quran with muslims.
According to them, text is wrongly translated, Or taken out of context or as a last effort, I do not know Arabic. If that fail, I have even been attacked.
So it just bring back to my mind the sentence ‘religion needing defending is no religion worth believing in.’
February 26th, 2008 at 4:45 am
Hello everyone,
Yesterday, I was talking about this site with one of my friends (from whom I learn a lot) and about questions I’ve read here and how I tried to answer…
To say the truth I was looking for better answers than mine but ended up with my friend looking down on me, not because being in touch with you of course, but by the way I answered your questions !
He said to me something like : if you are asked about Quran by someone who is not believing in god, then it is a waste of time replying, better than than you should talk about god existence and all what involve (afterlife, day of judgement, does a human life ends on earth…) and THEN talk about Quran. if you are asked about Arabic language in Quran by someone who doesn’t know at last ethymology then it is wasting time to answer, better talk about word origin and ancient language, that it could be better for both of us, getting us more information…
It was like that yesterday with if you were asked about… better answer with… and the point was that to talk about how building the 2nd floor, better talk about building the 1st one before, I don’t know if you got the image.
I say it again, I don’t insist for you to agree with me, if you don’t it’s ok, fine with me, ppl are different, it doesn’t need for someone to be religious or not to understand that, but as a religious man, muslim I want to make it clear that Islam is not in need to be defended, so is Muhammad (SAAS) as I believe he is defended by ALLAH (God), that’s my conviction, you have yours which is different, that’s it.
I also say again that Freedom should be understood and studied again if someone thikns that its absolute, a rational man will know that his freedom is limited by someone else freedom, that’s a social rule, not religious, freedom of speech is a right, the ones who made the cartoons misunderstood that right and turned it into something big and who helped them was those muslims who went on rampage, I am more angry against them than the ones who drew the cartoons. Muhammad (SAAS) was deeply hurt in his life and forgave ppl who did it, hurting him by non-muslims is really nothing, very negligeable to me, I don’t have time as muslim to care about that, it was always the case, but what’s really frustrating is seeing muslims hurting their prophet (SAAS), there are too many of them who understand Islam in a wrong way specially in Iraq and Iran then in those asiatic countries and also Afghans, if you see a documentary in one of those regions, you won’t see the real Islam as Muhammad (SAAS) brought it.
My friend told me also that you were the one who brought that up, you were the one who started the cartoon thing, you are the one making the questions, all I have to do is sit back and answer if I can and be silent if I can’t. You are the one coming and trying to understand, you really should learn arabic. It’s my language but I talk yours, If I want to learn astronomy, I learn English because NASA ppl speak English, if you want to learn about Quran, then learn arabic or you’ll always stay behind. If you make wrong arguments to defend yourself to not learn and so on then you are the one losing in information. I personally speaks Arabic, French, English, Italian, Japanese, Romanian and am studying both Hebrew and German languages, because am arabic, other languages looks very easy to me even with pronounciations, if you learn it, you will know what’s special about it AND OF COURSE YOU CAN’T KNOW IF YOU DON’T LEARN.
I won’t write here again and focus on better studying, but will sure read your comments…
Thank you. ^^
That’s it
February 26th, 2008 at 9:33 am
Hello Caller,
That’s quite a mature position to take. I’ve always found it strange when Muslims (or any other religionist) feel the need to stifle all criticism, sometimes violently. If Islam were true, it should be self-evident and be able to withstand all criticism. Thus criticism should be welcome as a way to demonstrate how robust the truth of Islam is. You seem to at least partially share this view.
I applaud you for you language capabilities. But, unfortunately, you seem to be sticking to your linguistic elitism. Arabic is no better than any other language. As such, any text can be effectively translated into another language. And my question still goes unanswered. Why would Allah reveal himself via a language that most people do not speak and, by your assertion, is the most difficult to understand? Did ‘He’ want to make it difficult so that more of us suffer hell-fire? I fail to see any mercy there.
I understand that you will not answer these questions. Instead taking on the burden of teaching, you have given us the burden of learning. But few of us are likely to be motivated to learn Islam since we already have good reasons to believe it to be false. Still, I’m glad you appreciate tolerance. I thank you for the discussion and wish you well.
February 26th, 2008 at 6:34 pm
Caller would have to be one of the more ‘enlightened’ muslims to debate on this board, contradictions aside… nice work.
Anyway, lets not forget that the language of arabic has actually changed somewhat since the days of mohammed. it might not have changed as much as many languages have, but changed it has (including the entymology), therefore this claim that the quran is pure and unchanged because it is in arabic becomes rather tenuous.
March 7th, 2008 at 1:57 pm
Caller:
“You just showed me that you treat dark-skinned ppl differently”
“Please, reconsider what you said about skin and cultures, it’s very offensive to Americans and Euopeans converted before the dark-skinned ones.”
Here is what I wrote:
“I know a lot of european academics, artists, historians, writers etc. says a lot of nice things about Islam and it makes you feel like your religion is something special, but I have to tell you this.
It’s simply because you almost all are dark-skinned and comes from a different culture. This way these people can show their surroundings how tolerant, globalized and non-racists they are. It may sound strange but its the truth.”
“I guarantee you if you guys were looking like europeans with blond hair and blue eyes Islam would be treated very differently by these people. Conservative religions that treat women badly are not looked upon kindly.”
Please read more closely what people writes. No where did I say I treated people of different skincolor differently. You failed completely to understand my point.
October 19th, 2009 at 1:22 pm
I think danish are barbar people and barbar country.
November 6th, 2009 at 10:07 pm
I can`t seem to understand why the muslim world is fuss over the cartoon defection of Mohammed the prophet firstly its just a caricature second its just plain humor and thirdly as a famous Muslim affairs expert seem to say it does not resemble Mohammed not even close it look like a sikh and muslim extremist plan to kill the cartoonist and lastly even paintings and pictures did now show the real face of your prophet Mohammed for you muslim would not allow it,and also, If it`s really as true as they are as CAller would say that Mohammed is good and kind, even if Mohammed were alive today, he would not allow he s follower to kill over a cartoon of which some are fabricated and added by some muslim fundamentalist to add weight to your claims of disgust and outrage!. are Muslim really that feeble minded as feeble as you re religion dictates that you will take the life of another person or people over carton drawings!,How inept, How pitiful is your religion that you want convert the world into islam and yet wont accept criticism and its failure,and look at the tears of children eyes of whose father or parents life you snatched in the name of jihad and terrorism and branding does who do not convert to islam as infidels!, Caller say`s Mohammed allows them to live with non muslim how is it that you want any person you met or talk to, to convert to islam, call it pride or what it is but I live in a country where the ABBU SAYAF is kidnapping and terrorizing the country side, but what we call it is a stupid sense of direction owing to the lot that your bible which is arabic and not lots of people can convert to read it as caller would say, that why you have gone askew and if you look at the news or internet whenever their is death and mayhem its cause by muslim, they are the new generation who practice Genocide that is why muslim want the holocaust attributed to Hitler denied and never existed as the president of Iran wants for he wants to be more great than Hitler he`s the new kind of genocide master slowly but surely. IF YOU TAKE the MUSLIM BIBLE AWAY FROM THEM WHAT WOULD HAPPEN, your guess is as good as mine, NO matter how you educate them or how highly educated they are, they would rather have a race with their CAMELS, cause to some Mohammed is a prophet but to others he is perceived as a GOD. this is where the problem started.
Lots of the muslim wants to established a Palestinian state and yet if a Palestinian is living in any muslim state he is a second rate citizen or refugee not granted citizen status in the muslim state where he wants to settle and yet when a Palestinian settles in any part of Israel is granted citizen status as long as he deplores violence. YOU MUSLIM
EXPLAIN THIS!
March 10th, 2010 at 2:27 am
Who again make a pic of Muhammed (A.S) he will be killed so becareful we respect your religion’s we respect your prophet’s so u must also respect our religion and our prophet thank’s alot and May ALLAH show you guy’s the right way AMEEN.
March 10th, 2010 at 10:10 am
SARDAR, many problems with your posting. Few of them:
1. A religion is a doctrine/set of beliefs. It is not a person. It deserves no intrinsic respect, nor can it be sensitive to such respect.
2. That “right way” of your Allah, in typical interpreting, dictates killing of non-muslims. That also doesn’t make for a religion should be respected. Violates human rights and needs be taken down.
3. If your allah is super powerful and god like you claim, then it easy could cause the right way to happen and could just cause right way to be known by all. Not so, so your god not exist like you say.
1-3 is just get started. Come again?