Muslim Response To Muhammad Cartoons
UPDATE Feb 13, 2006: HAMSHAHRI HOLOCAUST CARTOONS HERE
The response to the twelve Muhammad cartoons from Muslims worldwide has been massive, relentless, and utterly shameful. Countless incidents of vandalism and arson shed light on the barbaric course that the religion of Islam has taken. Many Muslims have voiced their outrage at my site. My question to you is simple, "why don’t you express outrage at the ever increasing number of fanatics in your religion?" The militant Muslims in Palestine, Iran, Iraq, Syria, and elsewhere are far more insulting and dangerous to Islam than any cartoon about Mohammad.
Here are some pictures displaying the Muslim response to the cartoons over the last week…
British Muslims demonstrate outside the Danish embassy over the publication of cartoons of the Prophet Mohammad, in London February 4, 2006. The cartoons, which first appeared in a Danish newspaper, have sparked outrage across the Islamic world, although Britain’s normally provocative newspapers have so far refused to publish them. REUTERS/Luke MacGregor
Palestinians burn a Danish flag outside the European Union headquarters in Gaza City February 4, 2006. Dozens of Palestinian youths tried to storm the office of the European Union in Gaza on Saturday in protest over European newspapers that printed cartoons of the Prophet Mohammad, witnesses and police said. REUTERS/Mohammed Salem
Palestinian protesters burn a French flag during a demonstration against the publication of cartoons in European newspapers depicting the Prophet Mohammad, in the West Bank city of Ramallah February 3, 2006. (Loay Abu Haykel/Reuters)
Pakistani Islamists from Jamiat Ulma-e-Pakistan group burn Danish, Norwegian and French flags during a rally in Lahore February 3, 2006. REUTERS/Mohsin Raza
A protestor demonstrates in front of the French Embassy, over the publication of cartoons of the Prophet Mohammad, in London February 3, 2006. (Luke MacGregor/Reuters)
A veiled Muslim protester, holding a placard, marches towards the Danish embassy during a demonstration in London, Friday Feb. 3, 2006. Hundreds of people protested against the publication of cartoons in nespapers around Europe depicting the Prophet Muhammad. (AP Photo/Lefteris Pitarakis)
UPDATE Feb 13, 2006: HAMSHAHRI HOLOCAUST CARTOONS HERE
May 29th, 2009 at 3:37 am
wish the politicians would think like this… lol…
May 5th, 2009 at 8:42 am
Don’t say Islam is violent OR WE WILL KILL YOU!!
Freedom go to hell! Democracy go to hell! Slaughter those who insult Islam!
Wow, Islamboy, you must be proud to support a group of dunces like them!
March 19th, 2009 at 7:49 pm
Here is video clip that must be seen. Here are some questions that were presented to me…
Why is our shared mission so important?
Why is the Islamist threat so dangerous?
Why is it essential that we overcome political correctness in America and awaken citizens everywhere?
Why?
Watch this chilling, newly-released video.
http://www.tangle.com/view_video.php?viewkey=0861ff3eabea1ceb73e4
January 12th, 2009 at 7:52 pm
piss on allah! Says: I AGREE.
June 8th, 2008 at 11:13 pm
Muslims are the cancer of this world.
Just as they take out their allah-mumbo-jumbo on the western world, westerners should retaliate and kill each and every ragheaded, pig-fucking camel jockey on site. No questions asked.
Leave pigs heads on stakes outside thier schools and mosques.
Even strips of bacon on the door handles of thier homes.
If these pedo-followers want war, don’t give up without a fight.
Allah was a pig fucker and muhammad was his fluffer!
Burn the ragheads!
We need to hurrey up and wise to these Muslim invaders of our lands. They come here. We dont want you. Its only time before someone will go to your schools and cut you down again again until you go home to Allah hell and Marry your sister and sell your 8 y/o daughters to your pervert brothers. Time is ticking, roll over the rag heads in GAZA and keep rolling over them. As a 7/7 surviver, I’ll be dedicating my body to cleanse my country of your pigshit filthy stentch from our land. It will happen. Rise up against those who kill innocent and do the same to their innocents. It’s the way of the world.
December 13th, 2008 at 12:13 pm
Hey unknown - you want to be listened to, then write like a civilized person not that stupid texting crap.
December 13th, 2008 at 6:09 am
ppl hu fink or av nefin 2 say bout isalmic religion ne snarley cmntz den u cn suk it u punanis bruv dnt try n hyp yh jus jam ur bars drawin piktaz n shit of our wonderful prophet u lowlyf americans n goerge bush ur a wasteman n u need 2 die haha i dnt care jus burn in hel ur a dikhed n our relgion is tru n real u wnt facts u wil get da facts u bumbaklurt rascalart bleev it or nt or ama slap ur ass u gehme fam x
December 10th, 2008 at 11:15 am
damn, muslim people are fuckin nuts. there takin over everything, why can’t they just keep to themselves and shut the hell up, duh and why the hell do they have those rags on their head anyway? muslims are gross, i suggest for them all to crawl in a hole and leave everyone else alone because no one wants you
October 16th, 2008 at 6:32 pm
MOSLEMS BELIEVE THEY ARE ALLAH’S THOUGHT POLICE
Fitna is basically a thought crime. The Koran says thought crimes are worse than the crime of murder. Because all kafirs disagree with Mohammed, the “najis”, the dirty kafirs are all of them thought-gansters (even if they do not open their mouths). The kafirs who actually open their mouths to examine, test or challenge Islam’s veracity in any way, are supposed to be the ones punished first as an example to others. The quaint 7th century “punishment” is decapitation. Appropriately, the punishment for disagreeing with Mohammed is to remove the seat of reason and thought. It says the following:
This is Islam.
Check your mind or your head at the door
…your choice which.
October 6th, 2008 at 2:06 pm
if the disease {muslim world view} is not corrected the rest will suffer.
i am not one wiling to do so.
contain the plague
October 5th, 2008 at 2:55 am
muhammad is great inshallah its my belived that one day alah destroy denmark and america inshallah
June 26th, 2008 at 1:09 pm
Post #229
However, a cartoonist exposes the facts in its simplest form so that everyone can understand the jist of it all.
What did we learn at school? A picture saves a thousand words.
Although posts from ‘Kurt’ ‘Alcari’ ‘Muslim boy’ and the like might be interesting from an intellectual point of you, I find that a cartoon comes directly to the point without ‘beating about the bush’!! At the same time keep the posts rolling in, I do find the majority (I mean the ones without this appalling language) sometimes quite absorbing and they certainly broaden my horizon.
June 16th, 2008 at 10:02 pm
Okay, if u say its just a humour and we should take this as a joke, then pls tell that whether the right of freedom gives you the right to do “anything”?
by anything, i really mean anything?
the publisher’s mom and sisters also have rights of freedom of their part, but they dont run off naked on streets, means some conducts must be followed and are followed for the wellfare of the society and for the peace.
In Islam, if its not allowed to disobey or pictify Muhammad sahab, then why should someone do that while still knowing that this might create problems???
now if its not the nuisance to drag attention and torture sentiments, then what else it is??
Have u ever noticed any such act done by any muslim society or institution for any of the relegions in this world?
possibly not, because disgracing other’s relegion is also not allowed in islam.
I cant figure out why christians and muslims are ready to fight always, even when they know that their prophets are related to each other in the relegious sense??
Whats happening in the world is totally not correct (i mean the terrorism thing) and its alsow wrong according to islam as islam doesnt even allow to kill people like this, as it states,”Life is granted by Allah and he reserves the right to take it.No man should and must not take this right into his hands. This is the biggest sin.”
even taking ur own live is not allowed in islam (means suicide is haram), so this terrorism is not correct.
but the frustation involved behind this mentality cant be ignored because that was generated by the thoughts like this.
so why do u hate terrorism when u , urself are creating the cause of it by doing such acts??
tell me a person who wont slap u back if u keep slapping him hard multiple times!!!
this is the case, consider it ur responsibility too,to stop the terrorism and the thoughts and roots of it.
at the end of it, this cartoon was a shameful act ever done by any artist, because a cartoonist is an artist, so an artist should work for the wellfare of the mankind, not for creating distances between.
June 9th, 2008 at 11:15 am
Muslimboy
the best way of dealing with brainless trolls like the one below is to just ignore him, and be thankfull that the majority of people aren’t like them.
June 9th, 2008 at 5:25 am
you obviously have no social life mate,
typical loser, gets all rude trying to act big..
who do you think you are to talk in such a way, dont stereotype…
your obviously lacking a sense of morality, try doing yoga or sumin… might help you release that anger..
some people, honestly…
June 8th, 2008 at 11:13 pm
Muslims are the cancer of this world.
Just as they take out their allah-mumbo-jumbo on the western world, westerners should retaliate and kill each and every ragheaded, pig-fucking camel jockey on site. No questions asked.
Leave pigs heads on stakes outside thier schools and mosques.
Even strips of bacon on the door handles of thier homes.
If these pedo-followers want war, don’t give up without a fight.
Allah was a pig fucker and muhammad was his fluffer!
Burn the ragheads!
May 31st, 2008 at 7:29 am
I couldn’t understand some parts of this article Religious Freaks, but I guess I just need to check some more resources regarding this, because it sounds interesting.
May 30th, 2008 at 5:02 pm
Ahmad, while I totally agree that Attaturk a million times better then mohamed (not having sex with 9 years old gets you halfway there), I don’t agree with your other idea.
You don’t just create a model to explain one single observation. With a headache, you don’t list a million options, or have immediate surgery. You wait and see if it lasts, if it’s gone after a little asprin, then it’s not a tumor.
Similarly, you don’t go and explain the universe on a single observation (we are here). You use many, many different observations, star formation, expansion rate, gravity readings, radiation measurements, etc etc.
Using all that, you create a single theory that explains it ALL. If you still have multiple options, you now use them to make predictions about things you haven’t detected yet. A great example of this is the “Cosmic Microwave Background Radiation”: It’s peak had been calculated to four decimals, 30 years before it was actually posible to measure, confirming the theory.
It’s the same with any theory, evolution and Big Bang theory included. Both have been used to make very accurate prediction which were then confirmed by experiments, confirming the theories.
One of my favorite sayings is: “If god created the universe, he went through a lot of trouble making it look like he didn’t”
May 30th, 2008 at 4:21 am
My great leader Mustafa Kemal Ataturk says the following:
” Stop saying good things about me, and do good things for your country”
And Muhammed says:
“Praise me all the time, all the time tell that Im the prophet, all the time think that Im the greatest man on earth, only obey my rules, never think and reason and stop doing anything good for the humanity, if they dont believe in my book, go destroy the humanity, untill everybody believes me”
That is the difference between Ataturk and Muhammed. Or a honest person and a charlatan.
Thats why many religious people hate Ataturk. Ataturk is the reason Turkey stands strongly against Sheriat, even though most of the population wants it today. Thanks to Ataturk. Only if people could appreciate honesty but not threats of torture. Or is torture the only language that those people understand and is that why they love muhammed? I wonder. To a man who told me “I would torture you and beat you and burn you if you dont do something and I will give you money and women if you do something else” my answer would be “Fuck you!” However those people’s answer is “I love you”. Is there any need to be such a coward? Be a man.
May 30th, 2008 at 4:07 am
Criticism to the following reasoning:
“We dont physically see some things but we see their effects. For instance electrons, or air, or intelligence. So we se gods effects therefore god must exist.”
That is invalid. An effect sometimes may have multiple causes. When you have a headache, you cant just decide you have a brain tumor. It could be one of millions of things. So if the existance of a universe is the effect, then there could be millions of possibilities for that cause. We could be created by a sick scientist in another universe, our god can be a child in another more advance universe and we could be in his test tube, or our god could be evil and imperfect and making fun of us, or just like your god, wants women to be stoned, or maybe our universe is self sufficient itself, to exist and it has no cause (not more illogical than the existance of your islamic god) Maybe Mohammed is a real prophet (very unlikely, because he has many flaws and errors you could pick that actually make you convinced that he is a charlatan) And most probably not. Out of millions and millions of reasons there could possibly be for the effect, how can you pick just one and only the one you want to believe and assume it is the ultimate cause? You could as well believe my shit created the universe. Even that is not more stupid than your dogmas and the things that say in quran. We are only so so vulnerable and poor creatures. If an engineer designed us, where is the instruction and repair manual of our bodies? Why dont we have a warranty and if we are born with a heart disease why cannot us get a free replacement? The thing is nobody designed us. Maybe nobody else knows that we exist. And only our mind can help us. Doctors, scientists, engineers, mathematicians, even musicians, all those guys, they are my prophets. I would kiss the foot of every one of them. Not your murderer egocentric and perverted mohammed and the sadist god that he created. Nobody is going to be punished for not believing a god. Because not believing a god exists isnt something bad even if the god exists. In other words not believing something that exists doesnt deserve any punishment. There is no reason for god to punish someone who doesnt believe its existance, because not believing something is not evil or bad, and it doesnt have any punishment value. Its just a normal intellectual result, could be right or wrong. I can reason correctly, or I can make a mistake in my thinking. Nobody can punish me because of that.
May 25th, 2008 at 10:12 am
seeing my french flag burn is actually cool. i always wanted to burn some flags and have some fun. muslim do have fun sometimes.
March 24th, 2008 at 2:29 am
Hi Boris!
Thanks for posting the youtube excerpt from the 23rd. March.
I didn’t realize that this interview existed. Furthermore, I didn’t realize that Ahmadinejad lives in a completely different world. Dismissing homosexuality as if it was something that was only present in our decadent, non-believing, western society, borders on a dangerous paranoia that defies all logical reasoning.
What does the quran say about homosexuality?
To think that ahmadinejad is in charge of millions of people makes me wonder if normal humans really exist, or is it just a bad dream?
March 23rd, 2008 at 6:55 pm
oh, and as far as pork goes that’s nonsense. any meat will spread disease when not handles properly. today we have refrigeration and we know much about the disease that can be spread through food. pork is as safe as any other meat. might have made sense a thousand years ago, but it’s not a relevant rule anymore.
March 23rd, 2008 at 6:44 pm
http://youtube.com/watch?v=4_3RUwAJ_MI
March 23rd, 2008 at 4:36 pm
boris,
i hate to admit it but theer are point u mentioned there that i actually ageree with…
islam as a religion is not bad, but there are ‘muslims’ (as they claim to be) who give the religion a bad name and do not practice what they preach.
“oh, and let’s see what the rich do for the poor in islamic countries. with all the money certain islamic countries make from oil, the standard of living should be much higher than in western countries. does the saudi ruling family share any of their money with the comon folk? yeah, didn’t think so.”
you are so right about that…
the thing is mate, the islamic principle itself is good, but there are ppl who fail to follow it and put it into practice…
lets face it, if we were all (every single human being) to give zakat and khums poverty would not exist. note: this is not how communism works because khums and zakat is relative to your wealth and giving a percentage of your welath and therefore not equal amounts, you would have the richer and the poorer but not to the extent in present day society. there are lots of scummy and selfuish ppl out there who are not grateful to their lord for what he has blessed them with.
you lot probably think im one of those ppl whos just so brainwashed as to not consider any other option and scared to keep an open mind. im not.
i enjoy understanding different perspectives and comparin different beliefs
thats why i respect this site for allowin us all to express our selves.
did ahmedinejad really say that? i doubt it boris, but if he did please do give me the source , cheers :D
its true that if one supresses their desires (i.e sexual social watever) they become paranoid.
personally, i believe the sharia is fair and justical, but that every individual should have a certain degree of freewill (ie choosing to go out with whoever they want etc) but it is neccessery to obay and abide by the law of the country whiich so many people let alone muslims are doing in the west.
the thing with religion or islam even is, the ‘right’ or ‘good’ things (or things that are beneficial for mankind) are listed and encouraged and the ‘bad’ and ‘wrong’ things are highlighted. if you truely believe your god is all knowing (i.e aware of the past, present and future) then surely we must consider his word and trust what he commands.
therefore by encouraging respect to parents is a good thing….
i had a teacher who praised islam for forbidden pork because he suffered a disease due to consuming it. there are many things that are not apparent to us due to our limit in intellect.
as for the quran, it is a glorious book which does not guide one astray ,
“Call unto the way of your Lord with wisdom and good exhortation, and reason with them in the best way. Lo! your Lord best knows those who go astray from his path, and He knows best those who are rightly guided.” (16:125)
please inform me of any points i may have missed,i’m pretty good at missing questions lol
peace, may allah’s blessings be upon you all, and may he treat us with his mercy and not his justice on the day of reckoning
March 23rd, 2008 at 3:20 pm
@muslimboy
there is oppression of all kinds in islam. that covers sex, food/drink (alcohol and pork), womens and gay rights etc. in such oppressive environments, people continue to do such things, but covertly. alcohol is not inherently bad, neither is pork. there was a good posting on here about sex related google searches coming from the middle eastern countries. i wonder why that is? irans president claiming there are no gays in iran. does that sound likely? not in the least.
my problem with islam is the same one i have with ANY religion conceived in a savage time. there is no inherent wisdom there… there are no divine revelations… all i see in the bible and the quran is a bunch of bronze age savages doing what savage people do.
keep asking yourself muslimboy… why do you live in a western country? would you rather be in a country dominated by islam? would you like it if the country you reside in now was ruled by sharia law? theocracies are not a good place to be.
when i think of islam, and its implementations all over the world, all i see is violence, oppression and lies. one doesn’t respect their parents because of a religion. one does that only if one is a decent human being.
oh, and let’s see what the rich do for the poor in islamic countries. with all the money certain islamic countries make from oil, the standard of living should be much higher than in western countries. does the saudi ruling family share any of their money with the comon folk? yeah, didn’t think so.
March 23rd, 2008 at 1:21 pm
Muslimboy:
“or are you not happy witht the relativly rich helping tose in need. or respect to parents, you think its a good thing we dont respect our parents or is islam right to ask us to respect them?,”
You seem more and more desperate muslimboy
Nobody said as far as I know that all of Islam is bad - it’s just not a good religion generally speaking.
March 23rd, 2008 at 9:07 am
Muslim boy –
Boris is referring to Aisha, who was betrothed to Mohammed at age six; the marriage was consummated at age nine.
March 22nd, 2008 at 4:42 pm
excuse me boris, a bit more specific please, underage girl?infact lady khadija was older than our holy prophet.
how about you tell me what principles you don’t like and ill tell you what aspects of it i respect and give me valid reasons what youve got against it, for example what have you got against us giving zakat (money to the poor) something wrong, or are you not happy witht the relativly rich helping tose in need. or respect to parents, you think its a good thing we dont respect our parents or is islam right to ask us to respect them?,
March 22nd, 2008 at 3:40 pm
@muslimboy
can you elaborate on the principles of true islam that you like so much? do you think there was anything wrong with muhammed having sexual relations with a very much underage girl?
March 22nd, 2008 at 2:34 pm
in the name of allah, the all-glorious the merciful
“if there is a god, it isn’t a she or a he . . . it has to be an “it,†because assigning it a gender based on one planet’s sexual dimorphism is stretching the metaphor a bit much.”
couldnt agree more with that statement, its a bad habit to call god a ‘he’.
“If Hussain had become Caliph, and the Caliphate had continued (although all religions splinter at some point, no matter what), would this Caliph (whomever he would be — and I only say he because women can’t be Imams as far as I know) be the ultimate authority in Islam?”
i’m not sure how to answer that…
hussain was the grandson of the prophet and had the correct qualities to intrepret the quran. on his farewell pilgrimige, (as recorded in the sunni books as well as the shai), the prophet read the hadith of the ‘two weighty things’
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hadith_of_the_two_weighty_things
the prophet made it clear, that his ahlulbayt were vital (refer to the hadith). hussain would have continued controlling and guiding the ummaha s muhammed did. (muhammed was the final messenger and islam was completed when he died, but logically you need a guide or the religion would be altered and lost). yazid claimed to be a muslim, but look at his history. he drank, gambled and killed the grandson of muhammed. yet you still have muslims who praise him and consider him as a pious individual despite the crimes he carrried out.
in fact if you study wht happened after karbala, how the women, the surviving children and the ill ali son of hussain (who was unable to participate in the battle due to his illness) were dragged in the scorching heat of the sun to kufa and then damascus in the court of yazid( many died due to lack of water). if people think this was simply a battle for the caliopha they are mistaken. yazid could not stand the ahlulbayt preaching the true islam, despite their torture yazid could not silence hussain. an army of 72 men against thousands they fought from dawn til midday. when it was time for prayer, hussin asked omar ibn sa3d (may allahs cursings be upon him, the guy who led the army and told every one to witness it was he who fired the first arrow) to stop the war so the muslim army could pray. omar refused so the muslims performed salat al khowf (i think its called) where by half the army pray (led by hussain son of ali ) and other half form a circle around them and shield them. look at what hussain is defending. he came to fight for islam and showed it while yazids men probably had no idea what on earth was goin on (i.e whos the good guy or wateva), in the quarn it is mentioned “surely prayer is a timed ordinance for the believers” (4:103). and what about ali al asghar hussains 6 month old baby? what was his sin? when hussins group were dieing of thirst, hussin held his baby and went to the army of yazid and he asked omar ibn sa3d:
“This child has done you no harm. He is dying of thirst and I am asking only for a few drops of water for him.”
look how merciliss omar ibn sa3d is.
There was stillness in Yazid’s army. Then the Imam said to his son, “Asghar! My son, show them how thirsty you are.” Asghar turned his head towards the soldiers, smiled and opened his mouth. He brought out his dry tongue and moved it over his dry lips. The soldiers, many who had left their own families behind, were affected so much by this that they could be heard sobbing.
Umar ibn Sa’ad began to worry with this softened mood in his ranks. It seemed that Imam Husayn’s 6-month old son was emerging victorious against the might of Yazid. Umar Sa’ad looked at Hurmala ibn Kahel Azdi (a famous archer) and ordered him, “Silence Husayn!”
Hurmala, said to have quivering arms, lifted his bow and made Ali Asghar the target of his arrow which was used to kill horses. He took aim and immediately shot Ali Asghar with an arrow that pierced the infant’s neck
what kind of human being would order an archer to fire an arrow into the neck of a 6 month old baby who has done no harm? how can people love yazid despite his inhumane actions and his battle against the prophet’s houshold?
kurt, i believ in god for many reasons. there are many things in this life we do not understand and we never will. god is one of those things. i cannot describe to you what god is because ‘it’ is not human. it is simply a force which can not be comprehended.
“But im sure youll just ignore this major flaw and just keep posing that same question.”
irish.t, you have every right to not believe in god. but surely i have the right to believe in him. i cannot explain properly why i do believe in god. apart from a natural feeling of his presence, i love the principles true islam establishes. i follow my beloved prophet as a role model. he was known as al-sadeeq and al-ameen highlighting the fact he was always truthful. he was a good person and i love him for that. the quaran is an amazing book. each time you read it you learn new things. it is truely a book of wisdom.
may god bless u all :)
March 20th, 2008 at 5:59 pm
“I do believe, we come to the very edge of our understanding (there has to be a limit somewhere)”
There really isn’t a limit at all, everyday every scientific and logically-reasoning individual work tirelessly to understand more of what this universe is all about. Fuck you for trying to trivialize it.
March 20th, 2008 at 12:20 pm
Muslim boy!
There’s the point. what created the big bang? or even more spectacular: What was there before the big bang? There, I do believe, we come to the very edge of our understanding (there has to be a limit somewhere) Our self named intelligence cannot cope with this fact. Thus we ’stepover’ into the realms of fantasy. (Humans our very good at doing that) This, in my view, includes the thinking out of some sort of super being which brings us right back to religion. I’m not frightened of religion but I’m certainly scared of the things I don’t know!
March 19th, 2008 at 5:03 pm
Muslim boy — thanks for adding some detail to the history I know, I always like to hear a good story. Now, I do need to address some things:
1) Buddhism has as its central tenent the concept of “Nirvana” (not the grunge band). Nirvana is - briefly - a “center” to the wheel of life where those who have found peace and balance go, instead of being reincarnated again (the purpose of which is for the ’soul’ to experience life and gain another chance to achieve peace and balance). Not really Allah-esque, in many many ways.
“what man out of his mind would do such a thing if his god was non existent?” — I think that answers its own question. Many folks have sacrificed themselves for many gods again and again. A willingness to self-sacrifice has nothing to do with the reality of any deity, but the sanity of saints has been very often questioned.
“how can these opressers go unpunished? a hereafer is necessery for justice to be served.” — Well, death could be a start. If there is no afterlife then death gets the “just” and the “unjust” alike (which wouldn’t be fair, but I’ve yet to see any philosophy which demands that life be fair). Taking the atheist position (even though I am agnostic), the verdict of history is justice: Hitler, Stalin, etc., get a bad rap and are shown as examples of “what not to be;” Washington, Churchill, etc., get praise and are held up as ideals of behavior (and remember, it’s not just losers who get the bad rap; Stalin won his war). I could go into some other factors of “justice,” but sometime the answers just aren’t satisfactory; we live in an imperfect Universe.
“and what about morality?” — this statement, and your follow-ups, are where I really differ from you. I don’t buy that religion is necessary for morality: some of my most moral friends are my atheist friends, and the reason is that they have studied and developed a personal code of ethics. Humanists tend to be more active than those who believe in an afterlife, for the simple reason that justice — for them — *must* be attended to in the here and now to have any meaning whatsoever. So where do these ethics come from? Empathy, the basis of all morals (we have a word for those who have no empathy: sociopaths).
Now, don’t get me wrong: I am not slamming all religious codes of conduct (love thy neighbor, for example, is a fine idea), nor am I denying the existence of a god of some kind. I am simply saying that I require proof to alter my lifestyle, philosophies, and habits. I’ll stay agnostic, live a life conforming to my principles (reason guiding, emotions following), and continue my “live and let live” attitude. And I’m glad you are into the discussions here . . . usually stimulating, very often fun, and occasionally enlightening. And, yeah, unfortunately, sometimes aggravating, insulting, or downright infuriating (and I have to admit my fair share of blame there, I guess . . . ).
Although, I’ve got to say . . . if there is a god, it isn’t a she or a he . . . it has to be an “it,” because assigning it a gender based on one planet’s sexual dimorphism is stretching the metaphor a bit much.
Oh, and one final question: If Hussain had become Caliph, and the Caliphate had continued (although all religions splinter at some point, no matter what), would this Caliph (whomever he would be — and I only say he because women can’t be Imams as far as I know) be the ultimate authority in Islam?
And, Irish — well, the teacup thing depends. Did the Enterprise D just pass through the area? Was Picard having a cup of Earl Gray before he boarded a shuttlepod to go to Reisa for some well-deserved R&R? ;)
Boris — even if you raise the average intelligence, it is still average (although I too would be happier with a higher level of intelligence in this world; heck, I wouldn’t mind being the dumbest guy in the world so long as I would be as smart as I am now . . . and the world would be filled with smarter people). As it is . . . yeah, a lot of ‘em do have all the reasoning ability of a mud puddle, and all the self-examination of a worker ant.
March 19th, 2008 at 3:09 pm
believers WANT to believe. that’s why when you talk to a christian, they keep saying “you have to WANT a relationship with christ, then all things will make sense”. once you take yourself to that mental state, your belief becomes an axiom. combine that with the fact that the vast majority of people are of average or below average intelligence and you’re facing a brick wall. craziest arguments become solid evidence.
muslimboy here has a lifetime of conditioning. to him the existance of god as he imagines it is a natural state. the burden of proof is on us unbelievers. that is why talking to muslimboy (just like muhamed before him) feels like chasing ones own tail. he will ask this same question again and again. and, of course, no one will be able to disprove god thus making his position right.
March 19th, 2008 at 2:57 pm
“you could prove god doesnt exist?”
Ive heard this argument over and over, let me simplify the whole reason why that question is bullshit:
I say that there is a teacup floating in space 50 lightyears away. Stupid to say right? But using your logic it is actually your responsibility to prove that there is no floating teacup. Eventhough it is an outlandish claim with no evidence to support it.
But im sure youll just ignore this major flaw and just keep posing that same question.
March 19th, 2008 at 2:21 pm
in the name of allah, the all-mercfiful the compasionate
@ kurt,
sorry for the long reply i had so much schoolwork to get done,
anyway, i am no scientists but i have done some research and analysedboth sides of the argument for the existence of god.
“Question one: if this (or any other) scientific (read: verifiable and repeatable) experiment could conclusively demonstrate that there was no god, would you alter your belief system? ”
if you could prove god doesnt exist? ofcorse, but then one would have to question what created that thing which was responsible for the big bang. we therefroe go back to square one and have to identify an ultimate cause or an un-caused cause or a cause whichin itself is indeed not an effect of another cause. catch my drift?
“If there was a scientific experiment which conclusively showed that there was a god, but that is was, say, the buddhistic one (just to draw one from a hat), would you alter your belief system?”
as long as that god is all powerful (does not need partners i.e hindu gods), all-merciful (created us through its mercy and not through its vain)and ofcorse was the same god that sent the quran then yes i would believe in it. i am not familiar with buddhist beliefs.
“Finally (and perhaps most importantly): is it more important to operate on facts (things which can be demonstrated) or feelings (intuitions which cannot be demonstrated)?”
i personally think you need a bit of both. because if we were to live our lives purely on one of these factors it is impossible.
my point about karbala:
the tragedy of karbala has a history of being a reason for people converting to shia islam if not sunni islam respectively.
hussain indeed the beloved grandson of the prophet, and you are indeed knowledgable in understaning the usurpation of the calipha by yazid.
now i love islamic history and tend to study it in my spare time.
if one studies the family tree of muhammed (saw) u will find the quraish tribe is indeed seperated into to clans the bani hashim from the noble man hashim and his brother abbas had his clan which i believe was the abni abbas but am not sure of the name.
if you notice the ummayids and the abbasids both originate from this clan and not of the bani hashim clan. i do not understand why there are so many people who do not realise this:
muhammed (from the bani hashim) fought against ubu sufyan (from the polytheists of mecca). ubu sufyan was an evil man who killed many muslims. when the war was won by the muslims, ubu sufyan claimed to convert in orer not to have to pay tax to the muslimen or to be sent into excile.
now i dont know if you are aware of the event of ghadir khum where ali was chosen by muhammed to lead the ummah after himself. the words were ‘ man kuntu mawlah fa hatha aliyun mawlay )- whose ever’s master i waas, then now indeed ali is to them a master. this is recorder in the sunni books as well as the shias. alis right was stolen by ubu bakr, umar and uthman who to be honest did not rule the ummah well. if you look at history you will find that even then theyasked for alis asstence to handle affairs. they would put family members and relatives in the highest of positions an deprive the ummah of fair money from the treasurty thereby going againstmuhammeds ways.
ali fought against muawia who was not entitled to be the calipha. muawia was the son of ubu sufyan and ali was from the bani hashim tribe (as muhammed was) and muawia was from his fathers opposing tribe of bani abbas (i think thats wat it was called).
the pattern continues. hassan the son of ali, was forced to stand p against muawia following his fathers death. muawia broke the peace treaty and made his son yazid calipha instead of allowing hussayn as hed promised hassan.
now hussain was being pressured into giving baya3 to yazid (allegence). to do so hussain would be accepting the false islam. now hussain sacrificed all he had in the name of god and to preserve islam.
what man out of his mind would do such a thing if his god was non existent? look at all these peolle commiting crimes, how yazid opressed the houshold of the prophet and thought hed won wen indeed he faiked because hussains message survived til this day. how can these opressers go unpunished? a hereafer is necessery for justice to be served. and what about morality? why do we classify things as ‘good’ or ‘bad’ ???
according to what? religion is the thing which guides us to what is right and informs us of wat is wrong. there is no obligation in religion. you have freewill. religion gives you the facts and you choose to abide by them to be successful or to not and be punished. themost import step of this is to have firm belief in your lord otherwise the rest is practically impossibel…
ive tried my best to answer your questions mate…
i am no scientist… but i do know some stuff. i hope ive made it a bit clearer why i do believe in god despite a lack of physical evidence. we see the effects of god and not him directly.
March 17th, 2008 at 5:20 pm
Muslim boy — you have my sympathies regards the internet; I had a similar problem last night (the post I put up this morning is a highly abbreviated version of what I originally wrote). I do tend to avoid Wikipedia as a primary “go-to” source, but I have other sites which I use. I am somewhat familiar with the Sunni/Shia split (due to conversations with my friend Kasem and general world history studies); as far as meaning beyond a succession fight and such, the only “meaning” I really get is that the usurpation of Muawiya, along with his son’s succession (Yazid, right?), and including the death of Husain son of Ali, means Islam has no final authority (no “Pope,” if you will) to appeal to as a final arbiter. Is that what you want me to be aware of, or is there something there I’m missing?
March 17th, 2008 at 12:22 pm
aaargh!!
stupid internet
i tried so hard on a comment then my internet disconnecrted!!!!!!!!!
im sorry kurt i swear wen i gather effort ill reply to you
for now do me a favour and go on wikipedia and type ‘battle of karbala’
read about it and its purpose and ill answer your questiobn later today cheers mate
March 17th, 2008 at 10:48 am
Muslim boy —
Anthropomorphizing is the process whereby nonhuman creatures and/or items are given human characteristics. Very often this is inaccurate. You will note, that even when I speculate on things, I try to shy away from anthropomorphizing. Just because you see a pattern of some kind does not mean that there is one there. For example, humans have evolved to recognize faces: we see them in clouds, rocks, the moon, etc. That doesn’t mean that the faces are there, just that we have minds which have evolved the necessary “software” to recognize the “hardware” of other human faces. This “software” tends to over-generalize (see patterns where there are none).
As I stated in my post, we have no “God-o-meter.” But let me share something with you. Michio Kaku (one of the primary developers of string theory which will be tested by the superconducting supercollider in Switzerland) has speculated that the three-part device which will measure and analyze the cosmic background radiation from the Big Bang might very well give information on what existed *before* the Big Bang (biggest mystery of the Universe, hands down). Now, there was no math given with this statement, so I don’t know how far into speculation Dr. Kaku was going. But it raises some interesting possibilities and sets up my questions. Question one: if this (or any other) scientific (read: verifiable and repeatable) experiment could conclusively demonstrate that there was no god, would you alter your belief system? If there was a scientific experiment which conclusively showed that there was a god, but that is was, say, the buddhistic one (just to draw one from a hat), would you alter your belief system? Finally (and perhaps most importantly): is it more important to operate on facts (things which can be demonstrated) or feelings (intuitions which cannot be demonstrated)? I eagerly await your answers.
Corso, Boris, and Alcari — Esteemed posters, I think you have succinctly put forth some great short arguments concerning infinite regession, anthropomorphism, and the nature of scientific proof, respectively. I bet I can guess the answers you’d give to my three questions . . .
March 17th, 2008 at 5:02 am
Muslimboy,
That has to be single dumbest remark in the history of science. You cannot, ever, prove a negative. To illustrate this, can you prove to me there is no Invisible Pink Unicorn in my room? Of course you can’t, but you don’t believe it because there is no proof there is one.
Same with God, I don’t believe in God because of the absurdity of a god and the complete lack of evidence. I do not make claims of an invisible sky farie, you do. The burden of proof lies with you, yet you are incapable of showing the smallest shred of proof of your claims.
And without proof, your fiction of god is just that, an idea, a fictional persona.