UPDATE 9/19/2006 – Original clip is now active again!
If you’re a parent like me and are desperately seeking new and exciting ways to entertain your children… then today is your lucky day! This summer, why don’t you send your little boy or girl to the Kids on Fire Summer School and Ministry in Devil’s Lake, North Dakota. Here, your child (as young as 6) will learn the proper way to be a born again Christian. They will become well versed in political activism and radical views.
Still not sure if it’s right for your precious little ones? Luckily, A&E films has created an extensive documentary on the camp so just sit back and enjoy. If after viewing you’ve decided to have your kids saved, then please sign them up and tell them gasmonso sent you to receive %20 off! Now please, just kick back and enjoy this truly horrific beautiful video clip.
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Hello Thor,
That ‘sad day’ has not yet arrived in America. There are plenty of us who fight it everyday (or at least every election day).
Really? I sat at home and got thrashed on Listerine.
I took the time to help invent methods to exploit your electronic voting system. We were going to use it to secure a Liberal majority vote in the last election; but then at the last minute we decided that Democracy is fallible bullshit, no matter who wins.
Religion was invented to keep the Poor from killing the Rich; then people decided Monarchies were unfair and formed new Governing rule. Now, the government is what keeps the 98% of poor ass people from killing the 2% of people who have all the world’s money.
prayer warrior == ultimate warrior… for those of you who remember WWF… ;-)
this movie shows a very sickening reality. there religious folk are the people that give catholosism and christianity a bad name. they all look like KKK freaks or even Nazi’s..this is total and utter brainwashing.
to be “saved”, the only way to do that is to save yourself. and look at reality from a different point of view. its sad that these people are so closed minded and so scared of what is really out there.
2 Timothy 2:23 Don’t have anything to do with foolish and stupid arguments, because you know they produce quarrels. 24 And the Lord’s servant must not quarrel; instead, he must be kind to everyone, able to teach, not resentful. This message is only for true believers in Jesus, I mean no harm to the others and I am hopeful that they will see the light while time is still with them. If you don’t find people who are willing to listen to the teachings of our Lord in one place then pick yourself up dust yourself off and continue your work in Christ elsewhere, and do not worry that some will speak harshly about you after you have gone because others will see that you did not provoke their insults and this will be to your credit. The Lord is not slow to keep his promise. He is not slow in the way some people understand it. He is patient. He doesn’t want anyone to be destroyed. Instead, he wants all people to turn away from their sins. Jesus teaches us to love our neighbors as ourselves, and treat every stranger like a loving member of our family even if they mean to do us harm. Bear fruit in keeping with the examples set by our master, may the Lord Jesus Christ be with you always.
Zot, I didn’t even notice that coolmom had responded to my questions so long ago. My appologies if you’re still watching this page. I’ll get a better response worked up soon.
The Global Great Divide
“What if a malignant version of some fear-laced “-ism” – ” thisTruth
is the only Truth and will prevail at any cost” – suddenly
rears its head for conquest and domination? Can the glass fiber
Infrastructure of the global village withstand terrorists fighting
holy wars or self-righteous crusades?”
“If we could shrink the earth’s population to a village of
precisely 100 people, with all the existing human ratios
remaining the same, it would look something like the following.
There would be:
57 Asians
21 Europeans
14 from the Western Hemisphere, both north and south
8 Africans
52 would be female
48 would be male
70 would be non-white
30 would be white
70 would be non-Christian
30 would be Christian
89 would be heterosexual
11 would be homosexual
6 people would possess 59% of the entire world’s wealth and
all 6 would be from the United States
80 would live in substandard housing
70 would be unable to read
50 would suffer from malnutrition
1 would be near death; 1 would be near birth
1 (yes, only 1) would have a college education
1 would own a computer
Well I thought that the most important group to focus on was
the part of society that is at a lower level. The part of our world
that are less fortunate who live in between wars, poverty and
starvation as this is the level that has the opportunity to destroy
all the rest of humananity’s progress. When you look at Donella
H. Meadows state of the village report, you realize that its not
just the lower level but fanatics who believe in God’s war such
as “the Jesus Campâ€This has nothing to do with God , its only
evil using Jesus’s message as a disguise, well thats my first thought
when I saw the film.Then I looked at it through the pain that people go
through, the frustration and anger. Who can we rely on? what is the solution.
We all have the freedom of choice, but are choices, our beliefs have so been
wrapped up in the quest for perfection.Only Fear is around us and it creates
and destroys.
The children and teachers forget one important message
here,one that has been given to us over and over again.Its here right in
front of us ,right on our doorstep, yet we are blind to see it words………..
Love for Enemies
27″But I tell you who hear me: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, 28bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. 29If someone strikes you on one cheek, turn to him the other also. If someone takes your cloak, do not stop him from taking your tunic. 30Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back. 31Do to others as you would have them do to you.
32″If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? Even ‘sinners’ love those who love them. 33And if you do good to those who are good to you, what credit is that to you? Even ‘sinners’ do that. 34And if you lend to those from whom you expect repayment, what credit is that to you? Even ‘sinners’ lend to ‘sinners,’ expecting to be repaid in full. 35But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked. 36Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful.
Judging Others
37″Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven. 38Give, and it will be given to you. A good measure, pressed down, shaken together and running over, will be poured into your lap. For with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.”
39He also told them this parable: “Can a blind man lead a blind man? Will they not both fall into a pit? 40A student is not above his teacher, but everyone who is fully trained will be like his teacher.
41″Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? 42How can you say to your brother, ‘Brother, let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when you yourself fail to see the plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.
A Tree and Its Fruit
43″No good tree bears bad fruit, nor does a bad tree bear good fruit. 44Each tree is recognized by its own fruit. People do not pick figs from thornbushes, or grapes from briers. 45The good man brings good things out of the good stored up in his heart, and the evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in his heart. For out of the overflow of his heart his mouth speaks.
The Wise and Foolish Builders
46″Why do you call me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ and do not do what I say? 47I will show you what he is like who comes to me and hears my words and puts them into practice. 48He is like a man building a house, who dug down deep and laid the foundation on rock. When a flood came, the torrent struck that house but could not shake it, because it was well built. 49But the one who hears my words and does not put them into practice is like a man who built a house on the ground without a foundation. The moment the torrent struck that house, it collapsed and its destruction was complete.”
God save America , God save us all
“57 Asians
21 Europeans
14 from the Western Hemisphere, both north and south
8 Africans…”
The above is simply not true. For instance take the following two claims:
“6 (out of 100) people would possess 59% of the entire world’s wealth and all 6 would be from the United States” and “1 (out of 100) would own a computer.”
According to the US Department of Labor’s numbers, about a third of Americans owned a computer as of 1997. That one-third of the 6 Americans would own a computer. That would but the number who owned a computer in this hypothetical village at 2, not 1.
You can read the rest of the problems with this at the Snopes site.
I totally agree with you, it just an approximation…Its an example to what I am trying to say about perfection we are always looking for it, we bypass the true meaning of the words…..instead of looking into our hearts…
Peace to you all
hey guys
great comments.
there is a new interview with becky fisher on
http://www.jewsonfirst.org/07a/becky_fisher.html
check it out
Interesting interview Jack. Now according to her opinions, there is an 85% chance that my lesbian ex-roommate was either called a gender-discriminitory name during the ages of 3-5 and 14-16 or was abused as a child… let me check….
Nope, nil on both, she says. In fact I think her direct reasons for liking women were summed up as being “I like women!” Go figure. Oh well, there was a 1.5 in 10 chance that she’d be in the clear on that, I guess I just have to go ask 8.5 more gays or lesbians that question. Certainly if she has statistics that means its true, right?
I’ve posted about this camp at http://haggaiministries.blogspot.com.
God Bless
It is understandable why some of you are having a hard time with these children worshiping God….
1 Corinthians 2:14
The man without the Spirit does not except the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.
People in this country are constantly blubbering on about freedom of speech this and freedom of speech that, but when it is a christian speaking the TRUTH, it is unforgivable and they need to shut up. You are either for freedom of speech or you are against it, but make up your mind.
And this talk of being forced, here’s my thought on that…
I feel that children are vulnrable and formable, yet they can and will ultimately make their own choices. The world teaches our kids about itself through news, politics, cartoons, music, etc. It is my job as a mother to teach them about Jesus, The Way, The Truth and The Light. I can’t count on the schools to teach them, definitely can’t count on non-believers like yourselves to do it, can’t count on that village that everyone keeps talking about to do it. No matter what our children are told, they will choose for themselves, because that choice is a GIFT that GOD has given to themas well as ourselves. I do not agree with raising sheltered children, but I absolutely agree with teaching them about Jesus and that the only way to everlasting life is through HIM.
If any of you are truely open minded people, then you will pick up a Bible and really ask God to help you understand. God knows when one of His children are truely knocking at His door, if you are that child, He will answer.
I don’t know what you’re complaining about. You just spoke out your mind(freedom of speech) and we expressed our opinions and/or made fun of what we saw. How much more freedom do you want?
And why on earth _should_ school or non-believers teach your children? They are your children, if you want to teach them something humanity hasn’t agreed on feel free to do so, but if schools start teaching the bible they’ll have to teach The Quran and The Tao… Did i mention the Gospel of the Flying Spaghetti Monster?
Not to that knocking on god’s door business, I’m gonna make you a counter offer: Go read some real world science and philosophy, see how your brain can understand it all, then go read the bible and come back to tell about the contradictions. If you are truly a Homo Sapian(Human) you’ll have enough brains to make quite a list.
*stops hitting the deceaced Equine with a stick*
I’m not even going to start with that whole “You should read the bible with the hope for God’s truth in your heart” thing again.
Are you asking me to read the bible with a sincere want to understand what it says? Because I’ve done that more than once in my life. I’ve tried to be Christian again for friends, lovers, and family. No, what I think you’re saying is to pick up the bible, pre-suppose that it is correct, and then read it. If you do that, then hey, the Bible is right because the bible says so!
child in the midst said:
“People in this country are constantly blubbering on about freedom of speech this and freedom of speech that”
Blubbering? By that I surmise that you don’t hold Freedom of Speech in high regard. You would prefer…?
“but when it is a christian speaking the TRUTH, it is unforgivable and they need to shut up.”
Yeah, it’s really a shame how, in the US, Christians just don’t have freedom of speech. Really… I mean, do Christians EVER get to talk in the US? It’s sooo unfair. Gee whiz.
“You are either for freedom of speech or you are against it, but make up your mind.”
Right. I’m a strong supporter, and you’re not. But it’s not quite as simple as you put it. FoS only goes so far. The classic example, of course, is that FoS doesn’t give you the right to shout “FIRE!” in a crowded theater. We’ve all heard that one before. But it also doesn’t give you the right to psychologically abuse your children. And it could be persuasively argued that a number of things that occurred on-camera in “Jesus Camp” constitute child abuse.
“I feel that children are vulnrable and formable…. [and] I absolutely agree with teaching them about Jesus and that the only way to everlasting life is through HIM.”
So let’s get this straight. You claim that the kids make up their own mind about things, but you want to make sure to get to them young when they are still “vulnrable” [sic] and “formable.” I hope that you see the glaring contradiction there, but you probably don’t.
“No matter what our children are told, they will choose for themselves…”
Well, then why do you spend so much time stuffing it down their throats… especially while they are young and “vulnrable?”
You are NOT letting them make up their own minds. You are attempting to brainwash them when they are young and impressionable… you attack and abuse their minds while they are “vulnrable.”
“If any of you are truely open minded people, then you will pick up a Bible and really ask God to help you understand.”
Ahh, yes… if we’re “truely” [sic] open minded we’ll suspend all rationality and critical thought and ask for help from from some mythological sky fairy. That is a curious definition of “open minded.”
And, of course, it’s exceptionally presumptuous of you to think that none of us have ever read the Christian Bible.
“…if you are that child, He will answer.”
When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
I asked my young children to watch this movie. They thought it was “creepy”. I explained this is one reason you must be sure to vote for the rest of your life. If these wackos have their way they will destroy our country.
I love it, tcs! Thank you for teaching your children about the danger these sorts of people pose to free-thinkers. You’ll turn them into free-thinkers themselves!
Intersting posts. As a homosexual who was raised as a Southern Baptist and who became a Licensed Southern Baptist Minister at the age of 16, I have to say that this type of religion scares me. Southern Baptist’s core belief is in the “priesthood of the believer”. That anyone from any background, any education, etc… can read the Bible, pray, etc… and that God can speak to anyone. An intercessory, (priest, etc…) is not required for communication with God.
However, as soon as someone says that they deem a different interpretation from the Bible, that may be different than the standard Baptist belief, that person’s integrity is questioned. They are seen as not a Baptist, and not a Christian because they believe differently.
Anyway, let me say, I am a Christian. I believe in God and have no doubt that when I die that I will go to heaven. I am also gay, and I believe that God blesses my loving monogamous homosexual relationship. Why do the people at Jesus Camp, etc… fear me? Why am I so bad in their eyes? I am sure I have been to the altar concerning this perceived “sin” many more times than thay.
I wish we could all just not judge each other and show God’s true love.
Welcome James,
I always like hearing from reasonable religious types on this site.
James,
You say that people at Jesus Camp fear you and think you’re bad. That never comes out in the movie (perhaps you haven’t seen it). My children attended this camp and are featured in the movie. They don’t fear homosexuals. They don’t think they are bad people (not any “badder” than any other people). We love everyone. If we happen to believe homosexuality is a sin that doesn’t mean we fear you or think less of you or think you’re bad. Certainly there are Christians who feel that way, but your conclusions about Jesus Campers may be your own over-sensitivity. Give us a chance and don’t judge us either.
how touching, a caring mother. Let’s go rip your argument to shreds some more.
well, you thruth is not as set in stone as you’d like. in fact, the majority of the world disagrees with you on that ‘thruth’
teach them? Yes of course, your childs education is your responsibility. Indoctrinate them? not a good idea. more on that later.
hmm, your understanding of the human mind seems to be lacking a bit. You truly think that what you tell them has no influence at all in their eventaul choise? If that would be the case, then why don’t we see a completely even spread of religion? By your reasoning, Christian upbringen produces an equal ammount of muslims as Muslim upbringing.
So, you’re NOT teaching them about religion. If you would truly give your kids a choice, you would say “Christians believe this, Muslims believe that, Buddhist think that…” etc and then give the a choice.
personally I believe you should raise your children agnostic, and let them decide when they’re old enough.
What you are doing is the exact opposite to what a responsible parent should be doing. You should be teaching your kids to explore, to find information and critically analyse what they see.
instead, you’re telling “This is true, don’t doubt, believe it or else! You have to live by these rules”
and to the ultimate child question, the one we should all be asking ourself as often as possible: “WHY?”
you can answer by giving the ultimate christian answer, the one answer that defies all logic, all instinct to question further. “God did it”/”because God says so”
(ps. teach your kids to spell better then you do please)
as a small hint, teach your children to think according to the left diagram, not the right one.
http://www.wellingtongrey.net/miscellanea/archive/2007-01-15%20–%20science%20vs%20faith.html
Alcari’s link is here. You have a bad day for links today, aren’t you?
Yea yea yea I know, where’s the preview button. It’s coming I promise!
gasmonso
First, let me say, I am a Christian and love being a Christian. However, I do not agree with the “Jesus Camp” movie. NOT ALL CHRISTIANS ARE LIKE THIS! Please believe me when I say this! Being a true Christian is having love and compassion for everyone. We are not supposed to hate or judge. We are only supposed to show the love of Jesus, however we can. This movie scared me and I will not be raising my children this way!
When reading discussions like this, my first instinct is to go on the defensive. As a Christian, I am starting to get used to that feeling. CHRISTIAN has somehow become something of a four letter word. Or, even worse, a joke. Is “Jesus Camp” an accurate representation of youth in Christianity today? Yes and no. From charismatic Pentecostals to Catholics, there are many “on fire” passionate kids and teens who truly feel that spiritual warfare is real and happening now. They are arming themselves with the word of God. That being said, there are probably just as many if not more Christian kids and teens who are satisfied with just trying to live their lives the best they can for Christ. What irritates the crap out of me is when people try and say that the former are just brainwashed lunatics. Who are you to say that they are not having a real experience just because you don’t understand it? Who are you to put God in such a small box and say “Stay there”, just like a dog? I couldn’t even begin to explain or understand God fully. My human mind cannot comprehend it. But He is real to me. He’s real to a lot of people. Can I prove His existance? No more than you can prove He does not exist. But….what if I’m wrong. If I’ve lead a good and decent life does it really matter? But…what if you’re wrong? What if there’s more? Just something to think about.
@tjay:
I knew you couldn’t resist the whole “what if your wrong” argument. It seems like you and many other religious folk believe in God as a kind of insurance policy against eternal damnation.
Every time someone says that I can’t help but laugh. When I was younger I had that fear and one day I just turned it off and made a commitment to be a good person who just happens to not believe in God.
I have absolutely no fear of going to hell. I am a good person who contributes to humanity is a positive manner. If that gets me a one-way ticket to hell then so be it. Honestly, if God send me to hell for doing everything right, except not believing in him… then he can kiss my ass. I’ll have a lot of good company in hell.
gasmonso
Hello tjay,
Your post has elements that are common to many posts by other Christians on this site. Allow me to address them one-by-one:
“When reading discussions like this, my first instinct is to go on the defensive. As a Christian, I am starting to get used to that feeling. CHRISTIAN has somehow become something of a four letter word. Or, even worse, a joke.”
If only that were true. Unfortunately, the reality, at least in the US, is quite the opposite. Atheists are the most maligned and mistrusted minority in America. Christians are still in the majority. This is even more evident in the fact that a majority of Americans said they would never vote for an atheists in a presidential election, even if the candidate was better qualified. Yet it seems impossible to even run for president unless the candidate claims to be Christian. Four letter word indeed!
“I couldn’t even begin to explain or understand God fully. My human mind cannot comprehend it.”
Then why do you suppose any other Christian authority understands God any better than you? You seem to believe in God because you experienced God directly (why God would privilege only some people with such an experience is beyond me), so, understandably, you believe God exists. Why then, do you believe the Christians are right about the nature of God? What makes your personal experience any different from a Muslim who experiences Allah, a Jew who experience Yahweh, a Hindu who experience Brahma, or a Buddhist who experiences Oneness, or any other religion past or present?
“Can I prove His existance? No more than you can prove He does not exist.”
From a neutral standpoint, the burden of proof for any existential question lies with the one who asserts existences, not on the skeptic. See Bertrand Russel’s Celestial Teapot for a non-theistic example.
“But….what if I’m wrong. If I’ve lead a good and decent life does it really matter? But…what if you’re wrong? What if there’s more? Just something to think about.”
This is Pascal’s Wager. There are a couple of problems with this line of thinking. First of all, it can be used as a reason to believe in any God. What if you’re wrong about Allah? Aren’t you taking the same risk as the rest of us? What if you’re wrong about Shiva, Yahweh, Thor, Zues, or any other god?
Finally, even if one is convinced that Pascal’s Wager is a good reason to believe Christianity, one cannot force oneself to believe in something so easily. Suppose I really want to believe I just won the lottery, or that my dead grandmother came back. I cannot simply want to believe ‘hard enough’ so that I do believe. Beliefs are just not forced in that way.
PS: I am not of the opinion that all religious people are brainwashed lunatics, though a few are. I base my opinions on one’s mental facilities on their use of reason and ability to communicate.
Gasmonso-
I’m not making an arguement with the what if you’re wrong question. It’s just something to think about. Obviously you have and came up with your answer. You say I’m using God as an insurance policy against eternal damnation. If you want to put it in a neat little package like that, then go right ahead, but you’d be missing the point. God is SO much more than that.
We all choose our path.
Sidfaiwu-
When I said Christianity has become a four letter word, I was mainly referring about the media. If you disagree with that then you don’t watch television.
God doesn’t like me any more than you. I simply chose to receive a free gift. Does that mean I walk around all day feeling the presence of God? Absoulutely not. There are times when I feel He is a million miles away, yet I choose to believe, to hold on the things I know are true. I’m not sure how to answer your question about what makes my experience any different than someone of another religion. As a Christian I believe the Bible is God-breathed, infallible. My Bible says that no man can come to the Father (God) except through Jesus Christ. Not Allah. Not Buddah, but Jesus Christ. I don’t know what else to say about that.
In reference to Pascal’s wager, I’ll say the same thing as I said to Gasmonso-it was just something to think about. You either have faith or you don’t. That’s the beauty of free will.
This anonymous poem best sums it up for me:
I believe in the sun even when it is not shining
I believe in love even when not feeling it
I believe in God even when He is silent
Peace out.
Hey tjay,
“If you disagree with that then you don’t watch television.”
That’s kind of funny, because I don’t watch television :) So, as far as I know, you are right, but I can’t imagine that television’s treatment of atheism is any better, if it’s discussed at all.
“I’m not sure how to answer your question about what makes my experience any different than someone of another religion. As a Christian I believe the Bible is God-breathed, infallible.”
I admire your honesty. It seems that it’s pretty much a matter of faith for you. I don’t like that people choose to believe things based on faith alone. I believe it leads to all sorts of problems. But what you believe is your business, and your right. I will only suggest a healthy dose of rational and critical thinking is used to flavor your faith. Ask those tough questions.
@tjay:
I believe in the sun even when it is not shining because I’ve seen it 1000s of times.
I believe in love even when I’m not feeling it because I have experienced it before
I DON’T believe in God ESPECIALLY when He is silent because nobody has ever seen or heard from him EVER.
There’s my poem for ya ;) All joking aside, it’s actually pretty true.
gasmonso
@tjay
As long as we the people are allowed to make our own decisions of which book we think is the right one, I have no objections.
Problems are camps like these where only one choice is given to a child who lacks critical mind set and is at the age when imprinting behavioral patterns is still easy enough. A child believes everything an authority figure says, it is part of growing up.
Question is, how do they get any chance of choosing for themselves? You might counter it with a claim they are taught the one and only way but by your own accord
“I simply chose to receive a free gift.”,
you made a choice and these kids are denied that choice. Not to mention that camps like these show how little the parents really care of their children.
Instead of teaching something as religion to their children, which is teaching morality (unless I am totally mistaken? Religion seems to be the only source for morals at least according the religious people.). Parents just let some strangers teach the children about the issues which I believe should be taught only by the parents.
Morality does not come from a book but from being taught what is right and wrong by your parents and from learning empathy so you can judge your actions how others see them.
Also, it is said that God gave a man a free will so we are free to decide for ourselves? The given free will concept is one of the bits that keep me from crossing over to the ranks of atheism from my post as an skeptical agnostic.
I just find it abhorrent that people want to squash the free will of a child and steal the gift of free will from them because they are afraid of dying. Humans are so egocentric that it is painful at times.
Pet peeve of mine is that, it seems to me that religious people also need a hellish threat to keep them in line and from exerting their own free will.
Gods save us from ever thinking for ourselves, we might get ideas, which are evil because it reads in a book.
Whatever Gasmonso. Ridicule if you like, I don’t give a holy crap. God bless you and yours and I hope you get all you long for out of this life.
Sidfaiwu, I do and will continue to question the things that don’t make sense to me in the Bible. God gave me a brain to use, not to be a mindless automoton. My beliefs are based on faith, experience and the simple act of surrender. You have more faith than you give yourself credit for. To quote Joseph Addison: “To be an atheist requires an infinitely greater measure of faith than to receive all the great truths which atheism would deny.” I know, not using an original thought, but he says it so much more eloquently than I could. I suppose we will just have to agree to disagree. I hope someday you find a satisfactory answers about the nature of God. Blessings to you.
I’m not ridiculing you tjay, I was merely pointing out the obvious. I am not an Atheist, but an Agnostic which basically means I have no clue if there is or is not a God.
After suffering through Catholic school for 8 years and going to church every week during that period, I have yet to see a reason for believing in God.
Could God exist? Sure. But until I get some sign from above or he calls me on the phone, I’m a skeptic.
How do you have such a high degree of faith? What fuels it because I honestly don’t see how it’s possible.
gasmonso
Ever the P.C. fence-sitter Gas… =P
tjay, have you ever heard the quote, “Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence”? Faith has nothing to do with atheism (or for that matter agnosticism). It is a neutral position. No babies are born believing Jesus is their savior, in the same manner that no babies are born communists.
As for the reasons for your faith, the real answer I’ve seen you give is that you feel his presence. Have you ever thought about how different interpretations people have for spiritual feelings? (I suggest reading some of Sam Harris, as he deals a good deal with the brain and spirituality) Some people think the feeling come from a wide variety of supernatural sources, and some spiritual people think they come from natural sources. Needless to say, the neurologists who’ve dealt with these subjects have never found any evidence supporting supernatural sources (In fact quite the opposite). The same goes for the existence of a “soul,” but that’s a discussion for another time.
Moreover, why believe that god pays enough attention to give you these feelings when he could be saving innocent faithful children with cancer? Oh that’s right, god works in mysterious ways… ways that seem to have the same results as if he wasn’t there at all.
Of course… you want to believe and that’s all well and good, but the thing that I really really don’t understand is why you think that he wants us to not just believe in him without proper evidence, but worship him? Why does an omnipotent being need his ass kissed? Why would he require belief? And why would he make foolish judgments about the his creatures he made, that are obviously ill-informed even to the lowly creatures he made (think evil gays and non-believers)?
Well that’s enough ranting for now… but theres so much more where that came from.
Hello tjay,
Thanks for the response. I just want to raise your awareness about something minor. It’s about how atheists, agnostics, and otherwise a-religious individuals think.
This quote from your post, “You have more faith than you give yourself credit for”, will often be considered insulting. The a-religious consider faith a negative attribute, one which they strive to reduce in their own lives.
Also, I could discuss with you the multitude of reasons why Joseph Addison’s quote, “To be an atheist requires an infinitely greater measure of faith than to receive all the great truths which atheism would deny” is wrong, but I’m think that you would not be interested. I hope that I am wrong. Let me know. I’d even be glad to discuss it privately via email, if you are uncomfortable with a public forum.
Finally, ending a post with some form of “God bless you” makes no sense to atheists. It would be the equivalent of someone ending a letter to you with “May your day be filled with pixie dust” or “May Mercury swiftly carry your reply to me”. Try as hard as I might to take “have a blessed day”, or the like, in the spirit it was given (have a nice day), I can’t help but reflect on how religio-centric that person is. It almost feels like a subtle way of extending one’s religious beliefs to others, whether they share the belief or not. The nicest way that I can describe it is ‘presumptive’.
I know that you don’t think either of these issues are big deals, but if you care about the way you impact others and the way others perceive you, you may want to consider these things.
PS: I happen to not be an atheist, but I have much more in common with atheists than I do with most religious people, despite our differing theologies.
I deny the holy spirit. I deny Christ, YhVh{Tetragrammaton}, Allah,Vinshnu, Satan, Ahriman, Osiris. I deny The Bible, The Tannakh, The Quran,etc.
I deny ALL man-made religions that put their dog collar on God. I proclaim my belief in Deism and in Natures God absed on reason,natural law, and common sense. I reject so-called revelation from the various absolutist,competing,blasphemous, dumb-ass, dangerous, ignorant absolutist revealed religions; I proclaim my trust in Gods gift of reason and natural law.
I deny holy books and proclaim Nature itself as then only true “word” authored by the beeing we call God itself, all else, are forgeries written by ignorant and superstitious humans.
In Reason:
Bill Baker
I see so many individual truths on this page. Unique.
Absolute proof that no “absolute” truth exists. The very creation of American democracy, our freedom of religion, shouts that truth to the world.
Love each other, live your lives, respect life, let others be, believe what you choose. Allow others the same freedom. Free.
Everyone has a moment when life absolutely ends. Death is absolute. That is where truth lies.
So why picker pointlessly? God or not? Sinner, saint, heathen? The whole of mankind will never agree on personal truths while capable of breathing air and free to choose from a multitude of faiths.
Hello one and all. I believe in the seperation of Church and Hate. I beleive that hatred no matter who it is focused at is wrong. I beleive fanatacism in the name of anything is wrong. Having powerful faith, and beleiving in a religious view point is the choice of the person. I am a Christian, and I know that a great many things on this sight are very very out of whack, and I remind people who claim to beleive in Jesus that in Ephisians we are told, “That we wrestle not with flesh and blood but with powers and prinicipalities int he heavenly realms.”
For those who do not beleive, good for you, and according to my religious beleifs I will pray for you, and leave it at that. For those of you who do beleive, I suggest you seriously consider the light your are portraying God in when you say stupid things like God wants all Arabs dead. If you ever really read the Bible, and actually understoond what it was saying, you would know better.
All men are separated from God by sin, and because of this Jesus died as the ultimate sacrafice to cover that sin. In the end it does not matter who beleives what, if you are wrong you will find out of about it, and if you are not, then good for you. The truth as it is written, and as we are ordered has been shared, what each person does with it, is up to them. What I beleive is not going to be important to a non-beleiver, and that is fine, but acting like bafoons is silly and ignorant no matter what. I leave you with this thought. I really do not care what you say in response to this, because it does not matter. All that matters is that hate, no matter who it is focused at is wrong, and anyone who thinks otherwise is really quite sad. May God open all eyes to see, May Jesus open all ears to hear, and may it be known, that in the end, God is real, because frankly, if you really think you are an accident, the result of a big bang ordained by no one, how little value you have given yourself, as opposed to being alive and with a purpose. Amen, and may Christ touch you all in the way you need to be treated, and if you don’t want him, that is up to you. Good day.
I have just watched the movie Jesus camp, and I am a believier to the core. I was a born again christian at 13. I have had very intense situations occur throughout my life that have created a pretty unshakable faith in the Lord. Yet, I learnt in my twenties that having a relationship with the Lord is not about fear, or quilt, or anything ecxept love, compassion, and faith. We can not tell our children to marder themselves, we can not tell them who to believe in because IT IS THE LORD WHO CHOOSES THAT!!!! As a parent I will share my belief, my stories, and faith with him, but it is up to him and the Lord to build that relationship. I will pray for him, and I will show him a true christian path by how I live, and how I treat others, he will have those values in a way that speaks louder then all of the guilt and fear, and anger they spew out on that movie.
I came to the Lord at thirteen. grew up in a non christian home. Due to circumstances of my own doing, I went to live with an intense born again christian. In order to stay under here roof, I had to attend church weekly. I will not deny when I went up there and gave myself fully to the Lord, yet I will say that having an entire congregation praying and giving attention to a girl who felt lost due to the circumstances at the time definately affected my emotional state. (having no mom, having no home really, feeling emotionally and physically abondoned). Would I have come to the Lord inspite of this? Most likely. Because the will of God is stronger then any childrens minister, or pastor.
When you TRULY have the Lord as your centre, (We are the body of christ) you can show the Lords strength and compassion. THAT SHOULD BE THE LURE. NOT CHILDREN, NOT SMASHING CUPS, JUST JESUS!They are doing an serious injustice by not letting God stand within us, and only God. Lord Jesus please . . . . I pray that the close people I love that do not believe see what you have done throughout my life and see value in you for this. I pray that you show me to live a life that represents you Lord Jesus, so much that they will gravitate towards you through me. Thank you for all your wonderful gifts Jesus. AMEN.
Let me pose this one question: Even if God wasn’t real (which I know He is) or for those who may think He is not, or those of you who disagree with what these adults are teaching these children, what bad will come of it??? Living as a christian means you “love your neighbor as they self”, it means living by the ten commandments, it means being friendly and kind, and living life with a positive attitude, helping others. Learning about God is learning about good things, learning to live a good life. So going back to the question, hypethetically speaking, if God wasn’t real, what harm is there in beleiving in Him?? Only GOOD comes from God. Be open minded, as im sure these evanglical christians would not sit here and judge you for what you teach your kids!!!
Well, the biggest problem that will come of creating too many fundamentalists is ignorance. Fundamentalist religion is inherently anti-intellectual and increasingly anti-science and anti-education. Another problem is intolerance. Such ardent belief systems are notoriously unaccepting of different belief systems and divergent life styles. Thirdly, they could be a danger to democracy. Enough evangelicals would have the ability to demolish our democracy and replace it with the theocratic Christian States of America.
Believing in God is not harmless in and of itself, and loving your neighbor, having a positive attitude, and helping others are good things. Unless, of course they are sold as part of a package deal (Christianity) that also contains the harmful things that I mentioned above.
I, like many atheists, love my neighbor, help others, and have a very positive outlook on life. We have all these great things that you talked about without Christianity and many of us without God. Why not keep the morality and dump the BS?
what is it with evangelicals and caps lock?
Duh Boris! Didn’t you know that God speaks in ALL CAPS ;)
OMG, gasmonso is GOD :-). Gasmonso used CAPS!
Oh, OK, maybe god is speaking through gasmonso…
Are you not aware of I Commentians 5:13-22?
I’m amazed at the backlash of this movie and the various interpretations of it. There are two sides to this docu-drama and they are so controversial. Growing up my father was a baptist preacher so no one thing I saw in this movie shocked me or appalled me. Most organized religions offer a bible camp for their youth and teach these same principles perhaps with different wording or a nicer spin but the cold hard truth is this exactly what most religions want their kids to hear. In reference to the first poster about the instillment of fear, firstly that phrase is not meant only to instill fear but because if you look at statistics, what we Christians would perceive as sinful in nature preys upon youth. When dealing with hot button issues like abortion, sex before marriage, unwed pregnancies, underage drinking, drug usage look at the age bracket these problems are the highest among. I believe you will find it is in America’s youth. To say this was merely to instill fear is to deny the truth in the statment itself. These things are common adolscent mistakes but some, in fact all can seriously damage an adolscent for life. I have known women that have had abortions and watched the spiral their lives became as they lived with that. And they were all under 25 when they had them and they will live the rest of thier lives with the consequences and thoughts of that action. I know several young alchohlics, and how do you not explain that a teen drunk driver on the road can and MAY kill YOU or your family. So it is wrong to make children afraid of these things? Do you not warn your child wether it be safe sex or no sex about sexual precautions? If you do educate your children examine WHY you do so and you will find a trace of FEAR in your heart or mind about your child contracting a DEADLY sexual disease. All the Muslim bashing by both sides of this movie appall me. I am currently residing on a short residency in Kuwait among the Muslims. Our view of them is as distorted as Christianity. Granted I’m not living in Iran or Iraq but those are countries not only ruled by Muslims but by human dictators. The Muslimism expressed in Kuwait is rigorous and demanding. But these women have the right to uncover themselves and they do not choose to. They have rights. I have discussed Muslim religion with more than one person here. It is based on another branch of Christianity/Evanglism and they love to visit Utah where the Mormons are upholding much the same values as they respect. They pray daily, they fast, they cover thier woman and the men as well wear dresses is it wrong to not invite lust and temptation on thier womenfolk? It’s not wrong, it’s just a different spin. And one thing about it if Christians would organize and organize effectively, in this movie the radio talk show host shows his own fear on the difference we could make in this world. I as a Christian and radical Christian in many of my beliefs will NOT be ashamed or embarrassed that I have taught my son what I do and do not believe in. You ask what damage I have done, let me ask you what damage has the media and public schools done to my child telling him things are okay that my lawbook, my declaration of independance (which is not a piece of paper signed in the 1800′s but rather what is in my bible) declares plainly and openly are WRONG? What damage does that to my child? To think it’s MORALLY OKAY because it’s legal to kill an unborn baby? To think that there are no ramifications for choosing a homosexual lifestyle? To think that he might fall into a lucky percentage of the population that suffers no serious comlications from drug usage and sexual escapades. Call me a radical, call me a brainwasher, call me whatever names you want to call me. Call me politically incorrect tell me that I’m being judgemental, tell me that I’m a hater because I choose to tell my children I don’t embrace a lifestyle. Does not mean I shun people of that lifestyle or cut myself off from them, it means I do not agree with that choice just as I don’t with every choice everyperson makes on a daily basis. It is my right to disagree. You reap what you sow is an old proverb and that is true first and foremost in the seeds from your womb. What you sow into thier minds and hearts now you will live with later. I sleep peacefully knowing whatever roads approach us in as my child ages, I have done my best to water, feed, and nourish that seed the best of my ability and faith. And I feel confident that though we will have problems and mistakes overall I have raised a very good child and he will show that to the world someday.
Katherine, AAaaaarrrrghhhh….. Walls of text….my only weakness. Try reading this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paragraph
Yes, it is wrong to scare your children into not doing it. Educate them, teach them how it works, yes. But not scare them.
I’d say none at all, but having been indoctrinated and doing the same to your kids, i’d say the fault is yours. Teaching children to take fictional prose for scientific fact is plain wrong.
Ahh, so instead of removing an un-thinking lump of cells, you would rather inflict years and years of suffering on both mother and child? Yes of course it is difficult to have an abortion, and yes, it is hard to deal with.
Let me pose you an example though. A very close friend of mine had an abortion at 19. She either had the option to remove a lump of non-consious cells, finish her education, get a good job and raise a future child in a good environment with great opportunities, while contributing to society. The Christian thing to was of course to give birth at 19, Be a single mother, drop out of university, live off of wellfare while being a drain on society.
I’m glad for het she chose the smart thing, not the christian thing.
I’d be happy to continue the abortion in another place though.
Name five. Heck, name one ramification. Don’t forget that there’s no actual basis for what’s written in that book of yours.
That’s the one thing that’s actually bad. Though, even here, education is a lot better then fear.
Then again, it seems education is not very high on your list of priotities. After all, we wouldn’t actually want people to think about what they hear or how the world works. Far better to just accept what the preacher tells you, don’t you agree?